September 22, 2016 Show with Doug Van Dorn on “Waters of Creation: A Biblical Theological Study of Baptism”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live -streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 22nd day of September 2016

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I'm delighted to have back on the program someone who is becoming one of my very favorite guests

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Douglas Van Dorn he is pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado and has written a number of books some of which have a very controversial themes actually and Today is no exception.

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He has written a book called the waters of creation a biblical theological study of baptism

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Which is an issue obviously every Christian knows At least one that has been in the faith for a reasonable number of years

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That the issue of baptism has been a hotly divided issue for centuries even resulting in the loss of life over the centuries especially the loss of life for those who believe in credo or believer only baptism and It is my honor and privilege to welcome

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Douglas Van Dorn back to iron sharpens iron, it's great to have you on the program again And This book we are discussing today as I mentioned waters of creation a biblical theological study of baptism.

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That is Right there an interesting title waters of creation if you could explain that Yeah, I was

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It's kind of a kind of a long story how I got there I was at Denver Seminary, and I was getting ready for my orals and graduation and wanting to stay in town and Probably pastor it wasn't quite sure and I there were no

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Baptist Reformed churches around so I was actually pretty open to the whole idea of infant baptism as I was studying it and I just could not make the leap over to the circumcision you know infant baptism connection and so I started studying it and and I'm trying to figure out what

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I believed and and I was reading of all things a book by John Piper on fasting and in that book he he makes this typology connection and it was about Jesus in the wilderness and so that had to do with food, but the gospel of Matthew starts off with this long typology where Jesus is going down into Egypt, and then he comes back out and then he's baptized in the water

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Then he goes out into the wilderness, and he made this connection that the baptism of Jesus Was typed in the

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Old Testament Red Sea, and I thought about Instantly 1st

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Corinthians 10 where Paul says that they were baptized into Moses and Most books that I've read on baptism doesn't matter if it's from Pato Baptist or Baptist.

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They just don't go into the Old Testament In their discussion of baptism I've I couldn't figure out why that was and here it was staring me in the face that there's baptism in the

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Old Testament So I started digging in deeper and I found Where Peter talks about how the flood is an anti type of baptism

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And then I started reading the church fathers on those on those stories and I found in Tertullian This idea that actually several fathers taught that Creation itself was a baptism.

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It actually uses the word Mikvah, which is a ceremonial word for a

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Jewish baptism and he uses that yeah in the check in Genesis chapter 1 Yeah, they the Jews actually have

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Immersion tanks for mikvahs, correct Exactly. You can go into the you can go into you know, like Masada and you'll find you'll find them still there to this day.

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So anyway, the title waters of creation comes from that thinking of the church fathers that Baptism goes all the way back to the very beginning of creation and and continues all the way through the

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Revelation. So the book is really a biblical theological study of Baptism as it's found from Genesis to the end of the

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Bible Yes, and it's interesting that Tertullian one of the church fathers from what

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I understand the very first mention in history in recorded history of An infant baptism is in the writings of Tertullian when he is opposing it.

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Am I right on that? Yeah, I think I recall hearing that as well Okay, well first of all why it'd probably be a good idea for you to give the basics before we get into anything that may

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Look like it is novel or a different view or understanding of baptism

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Give us a basic definition of New Testament baptism right now I believe that New Testament baptism is

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Proper practice is for those who profess the name of Christ. So they are considered believers and You know, they've have some sort of basic Understanding of what that is.

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I'm not here to say that it has to be, you know such and such amount of hours of training or whatever, but they have to know what the gospel is that they're confessing and The the proper recipients are those people and not infant

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Mm -hmm. And Do you think that the original? Koine Greek is clear enough that this is specifically an immersion underwater

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Well, I I think that the word baptism itself is Especially when it's applied to water is an immersion.

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I do think that New Testament baptisms were immersion Alpha though take kind of a little bit different view than maybe some

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Baptists do I don't know what some of the Presbyterians do With it, but I think that there were ceremonial baptisms in the

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Old Testament of blood mostly that were sprinklings but those served a very different purpose than what the purpose of Christian baptism is as I as I hope we'll get into Yeah, I'm very thankful for one that we don't have blood involved in our baptisms

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Some of our Baptist forefathers, unfortunately did when they were yes, and It is

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Heartbreaking for we who are reformed to say that it was not only Roman Catholics that did this it was

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Some of the magisterial Protestants, correct? Yeah, it was they kind of lumped

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Well, I don't think they should have been putting to death even the Anabaptists, right? They they lump, you know the reformed confessional

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Baptist in with the Anabaptists were all just the same sort of You know character and that's just it was completely unfair what they were doing.

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I Just want to let you know that as everybody who listens to this program regularly

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I Although I am a reformed Baptist and I take a very Strong position on believer only or credo or credo as some people pronounce it baptism

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I have friends and brethren in Christ who I highly revere who are pedo

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Baptist from the Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed and Calvinistic Anglican backgrounds and other groups

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This is not meant to be some kind of a mean -spirited sectarian thing that we're doing today we are just Delving into a discussion on a view that That involves believer only or credo baptism something that I embrace and something that my

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The congregation where I'm a member embraces and the association that we are part of etc

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In fact, I very often have had Presbyterians even co -host this show with me So I wanted to make that clear and I did receive today a humorous

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Email from a Presbyterian friend who will remain unnamed

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Because if I were to name him He would probably be upset because he may lose half of his customers in the business that he has

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But he says I'm puzzled by the promotion of your show today you say that your guest is having a biblical study of baptism and he's a

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Member of a Baptist Church, so I don't understand this. He's a Presbyterian who is pastor of a

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Baptist Church Yeah, well that you know It's tongue -in -cheek.

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I get it But there's maybe there's a little something to that at least from their perspective and kind of from my own which is when

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Baptists make an argument for baptism only from the New Testament. I think that they're doing a pretty big disservice to this this

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Incredibly rich topic that's found throughout the entire Bible and you know

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That's kind of one of the unique contributions of my book. I hope So in other words you are saying that although this is clearly a new covenant ordinance

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That it does have clear Biblical roots in the Hebrew Scriptures of the

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Old Testament. Yeah, and I would go even a step farther and I would say that whether it's a sign or a sacrament now,

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I would distinguish between those two a Sacrament is something that God it commands that it would be repeatable

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Whereas a sign is something that he just kind of gives maybe once, you know So like the

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Red Sea would be a sign But my argument is that we actually find baptism in every single one of the covenants of the

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Old Testament In either a sign or a sacrament Hmm well are you begin in part one of your book on the baptism of Jesus which obviously is

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Taking place in the pages of the New Testament But it is before his obviously it's before Christ's atoning work on Calvary and his resurrection and ascension and so on but if you could tell us

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About the significance of the baptism of Jesus performed by John the Baptist I Think that's probably the most important question that we can ask is why was

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Jesus Christ baptized in the Jordan River? He actually refers to a second baptism in his life later on in the

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Gospels of Mark and Luke Saying that he has another baptism to undergo and at that point he's talking about his death on the cross but that's a different baptism than what he and what he underwent at the

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Jordan and So that we I think we really need to ask the question. Why was

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Jesus baptized? And why was he baptized by John? And so the story is that John is in the

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Jordan River baptizing all of these people and it seems You know very reasonable to conclude that he's doing it

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For the reasons that maybe the Qumran priests were doing it some sort of proselyte thing.

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He also talks about repentance in the kingdom of God and So there's all that going on and then all of a sudden

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Jesus his cousin comes up to him and says I need to be baptized by you and John looks at him just astonished and says no,

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I'm the one who needs to be baptized by you and Jesus Jesus replies and this is really the key and going back to Matthew's gospel for this

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He says I have to do this in order to fulfill all Righteousness, and so as soon as Jesus says that John immediately says, oh, okay

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Well, then let's go let's go do it and then he's baptized So when Jesus says to fulfill all righteousness to John, I think that what's going on there is

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Jesus gave John a different reason for being baptized and what John was currently giving to the other people and when you look into the meaning of fulfill all righteousness in the gospel of Matthew that language occurs of fulfillment and righteousness both occurs are very often in the gospel

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Matthew and he's always talking about the Old Testament Torah something is being fulfilled from the law and so the question then becomes is

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Jesus fulfilling something in the law of Moses that it's baptism and My conclusion is that that's exactly what's going on.

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He's fulfilling the ordination Covenantal sacraments of the priest in Exodus chapter 29

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So we get all sorts of clues about what was going on in Jesus's baptism He was 30 years old

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He was called by God at his baptism. He was baptized by a priest He's without spot or blemish.

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He's a male his ministry begins immediately after his baptism and other sorts of things

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When you go back and look at this law in Exodus 29 You find that the priest has to be 30 years old.

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He has to be called by God. He has to be Baptized by someone who's a priest.

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He cannot have a defect in any kind of a way. He has to be a male He has to be Jewish and this is his ordination into priestly ministry

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And so I think what Jesus is doing is is he's fulfilling this ordination sacrament

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Covenantal sacrament of the priest according to the Levitical Covenant of the

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Old Testament Now it seems from the scriptures that those that were baptized by John the

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Baptist other than Jesus Christ our Lord God and Savior everyone else

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Was rebaptized were they not wasn't there a distinction made? You mean later when they became

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Christian, yes That I suppose that could be the case I've never really looked that thoroughly into that.

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I guess you could assume that that's the case and Why would that be? What was the difference between a

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Christian baptism and the baptism of John the Baptist? Well, the the point is that when we're baptized we are being baptized into Christ Jesus Mm -hmm

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Obviously before Jesus was baptized and lived his life and died on the cross and so on John was not baptizing anyone into Christ Jesus and so that becomes

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Yes, I see that and the There is a glorious picture that is occurring there at the baptism of Jesus where you have the

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Trinity present If you could explain that whole scene for our listeners Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, isn't it?

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Yes, and it actually is that it's even more rich when you start to see the symbolism that's going on there

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Mm -hmm that the Holy Spirit is Hovering over Jesus like a dove it says well that language that actually goes back to three different Old Testament baptisms

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You've got the idea of you know, take the explicit The Flood is of the anti type of baptism

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Christian baptism in the Old Testament, well Noah being pictured as a second

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Adam The world is covered in water the dry land appears and the bird starts hovering you know that the dove goes out of the waters until he can find the

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You know the leaf to bring back to Noah. It's an image that comes from Genesis 1 2 again

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Where the Spirit of God is hovering over the waters of creation and We've already talked about a little bit how that idea was seen as a baptism.

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It's really it's a baptism of God's created temple the world where Isaiah says that you know, the earth is his footstool and heaven is his throne and and So creation is being set up as his temple and he's he's putting baptism symbolism right into it and Then you find a third example in the

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Old Testament where Moses takes the language of Genesis 1 to the

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Hebrew word Rahab and that's the word for hovering and He uses that he only uses this word twice and all of the first five books that he wrote and he says that God was

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Hovering over Israel like a bird As he plucked

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Israel out and brought him through the Red Sea So all three of those images are you know?

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And again the Red Sea being a picture of baptism that Paul speaks of in 1st

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Corinthians 10 So Jesus is just coming along and he's fulfilling all of those

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And then in those cases they're signs They're not sacraments, but he becomes the fulfillment of all of those because he's the you know

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His baptism is the end of all of them And I want to give our listeners our email address if in case they want to join us on the air as well

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With a question of their own. Our email address is chrisharnsen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA Before we go on to Baptism and its relationship to the

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Covenant. Do you have anything further to add about specifically baptism and the priesthood?

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sure Well, there's actually there's a whole lot that we could think about I suppose the most

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Directly important for Christians is that there's all sorts of prophecies that That begin in the typology of Israel again where God says he makes them into a nation of priests and then he has them wash their clothes and bodies before Sinai and Then in their failure as priests

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He creates a priesthood and gives them a priestly covenant and then that you know

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The failure of of even the Levitical priesthood ends up becoming prophecies for people like Isaiah Isaiah the way scholars usually divided is kind of into three sections and the last of those three would be chapters 56 to 66 which is important because when you read the beginning of chapter 56

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And go to end at 66 it forms a giant chiasm Which is a literary device that they would use to help people remember the material and so on But chapter 56 begins with this idea of an

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Ethiopian of a eunuch Again, I think it's a Gentile eunuch even Going in and serving

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God in his temple and then the end of the chiasm It's almost the last verses of of Isaiah's prophecy.

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I think there's like three verses that come after it, but he says that The days are coming when

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God is going to make Levite Levite priests out of the nation and so it kind of begins with this

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Gentile priesthood and Ends with the Gentile priesthood and it's into that that the

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New Testament comes along and starts referring to Christians as a priesthood of believers as we like to talk about it and so Baptism is just you know, it's it should be viewed properly

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I think as an ordination of the Christian into their priestly service where they begin to worship

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God in the New Testament temple, which is twofold it's both their own bodies as Paul calls our our body the temple of the

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Holy Spirit and it's also in the church, which is called the temple New Testament temple of Christ.

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We're his body and he's our head and How are we to serve God in this temple where we're to do it with our bodies as living sacrifices and where to offer the prayers of incense and where to do the priestly ministry of the preaching of the gospel as it says in Romans and All sorts of language like that where it's not that the priesthood has passed out of existence that it's changed its form

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It's changed its place and it's changed how the sacrifices and what kind of sacrifices are offered to God Would you say that this?

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understanding of baptism would actually go hand in hand with the idea an idea that gets a lot of Messianic Jewish brethren of ours upset

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And some dispensationalists upset because they are misunderstanding. I Believe what is being said?

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but that the church is the fulfillment of Old Testament Israel is

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New Covenant Israel and There is a label that has been hurled at us or placed upon us called replacement theology

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That almost sounds equivalent to some kind of an anti -semitic You know

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Anglo -israelism or Aryan type of bigotry where you're saying Gentiles are now the chosen rather than the

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Jews or something, but That is nothing to do with what we are talking about when Jew and Gentile become one in Christ and This is the church the the body of Christ both

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Jew and Gentile the Gentile grabbed grafted in to the

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Jew the Jewish branch would this be Coinciding with what you're talking about here, but the church being the new

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Israel You know that Somebody brought that up to me a week or so ago.

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I'm not my response of the replacement theology thing. My response was Hard to replace what was never, you know lost in the first place

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Israel in the Septuagint should the Greek translation when they're assembled together at places like Mount Sinai And all sorts of other places

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They're called the Ecclesia. They're called the church so The New Testament is taking that language that belongs to Israel and it's applying it to those people that are now in Christ Well, they were always in Christ because Christ is the

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God of Israel in the Old Testament Now he's expanding according to the promises of the

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Gent of you know Things like the Abrahamic Covenant to make him the father of many nations

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He's just expanding the promises that were that were always there, you know prophesied that he would do

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That he would take a people for his own that wouldn't just be ethnic Jews and These people would be considered the

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Ecclesia. So it's not it's not replacement. It's more fulfillment of Anything else?

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It's like the acorn becoming the oak tree. There's no replacing of an acorn when you do that Brought up the that language of in in Christ Jew and Gentile and my mind went straight to Galatians Chapter 3 where Paul says, you know in Christ, there is no

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Jew. There is no Gentile and Therefore verses later. He says you have all been

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Baptized into Christ and you have clothed yourself with Christ And it's not like he's just making that language of baptism and clothing up.

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That's Exactly what happened in the ordination ceremony of the priest in Exodus 29

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He was first to be washed in water his whole body. By the way, it wasn't a sprinkling whole body was washed in water same word that used of Bathsheba bathing or of Naaman going down into the into the river when he's cured of his leprosy and Then they were to be clothed with the priestly garments and what

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Paul is saying is that we're washed We wash our bodies with water and we're clothed with the Holy Spirit of God and in first Peter The second chapter we have

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A starting in verse 9 But you and he's speaking to Christians.

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You are a chosen race a royal priesthood a holy nation a People for God's own possession so that you may proclaim the excellencies of him

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Who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light? For you once were not a people but you now are the people of God You had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy

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I mean, I don't understand how anyone could deny that this is specifically making a bold and radical and revolutionary declaration about who

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Israel is since the dawn of the gospel of Jesus Christ Exactly and Paul or Peter there actually takes that language straight from Exodus 19 verse 6

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You shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation Who's he talking to?

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He's talking to the nation of Israel. So by Peter quoting that text and using it of the church

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He's not saying the church is replacing anything. He's calling the church true. Israel's doing

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And we have to go to a break right now if anybody would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

27:47

Don't I have not forgotten about those of you who are now already waiting to have your questions asked and answered

27:53

So I appreciate you being patient and we will get to you as soon as possible And if anybody else would like to join them on the air with a question

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

28:09

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Doug Van Dorn and more of our discussion on baptism

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today is

32:11

A returning guest Douglas Van Dorn pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado He is the author of a number of books including the one we are discussing today waters of creation a

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Biblical theological study of baptism and our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

32:31

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. If you'd like to join us on the air, I might as well take a couple of these

32:38

Listener questions as they continue to mount up here. We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland Who asks would you consider a correct view of baptism a requirement of local church membership?

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Or would you consider it enough that someone be able to show obedience to the Lord in the matter of baptism based on their own?

33:00

understanding of Scripture Even if it's a different position to the one taken by the church so what should unite or divide

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Christians light or life and that would be the position that Murray is speaking about is a position that has been taken by a couple of denominations like the

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Evangelical Free Church and Also, the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and the

33:29

Free Presbyterian Church of North America. They have both pedo and credo Baptists who are pastors and members of their congregations, but if you could comment on Murray specific question

33:42

Yeah, that's a good question We've had to wrestle with that as a church and as a new association that of Reformed Baptist Churches That's forming and in both our church and in and in this new association called the

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Reformed Baptist Network We've kind of taken a two -tiered approach to that.

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I guess I Don't think that this issue of baptism is something that should split

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Christians apart but I also know that it's Hard for both sides to kind of sit regularly under the teaching sometimes of the other

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Especially if it's like a hobby horse And I also know that it's hard to find good Reformed Churches whether they're infant

34:21

Baptist or Baptist across much of this world and so our church

34:29

Will we actually have Infant have had infant Baptist members in the past We're confessional 1689

34:38

Baptist Church and we allow for that, but we don't let them be they we don't let them teach on the issue of baptism and they also wouldn't be able to serve as You know elders or deacons because we hold those offices to a higher standard than we would

35:00

The people in the pew or as our network goes we've have kind of a two -tiered membership that we're going to be setting up where voting members would be churches or individuals that are that are 1689 but there would be an associate membership level where upon the recommendation of another

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Reformed Baptist Church that even Presbyterians could be involved with that on a on a lower kind of a level

35:30

How do you respond to the Christian perhaps the more strict Baptist would say? That category of membership is not found within the pages of Scripture Well, I mean,

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I guess that's their that's their opinion I I know other people that don't think that membership is found on the pages of Scripture in any way whatsoever so it's a very issue of membership is a complicated question and I think there should be some liberty on the part of Individual local churches to be able to make up their mind themselves on those questions

36:04

We do have Jason in Fort Worth, Texas, and I am going to give a shout out to Jason because I don't think he'll mind me giving his full name

36:14

Jason Delgado, he is the first webmaster for iron sharpens iron

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When we relaunched in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, we had another webmaster for years when we were broadcasting out of Long Island, New York, but Jason was our very first webmaster who came forward immediately as a volunteer to help out iron sharpens iron relaunch and we were so Delighted and it was an answer to prayer that this occurred and I just thanked him for all of his labors to Create a very attractive website and to maintain it for quite a long time and so I just want to send my love and My brotherly greetings to you

37:00

Jason in Fort Worth, Texas, and he asks besides on the issue of infant baptism

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How does your book compare in its biblical theology to that of professor

37:12

J V Fesco's book? Word water and spirit a reformed perspective on baptism

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I'll say hi to Jason, too That that's a that's a kind of a it's an interesting question

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Let me just put it this way. I made sure that I got my book on baptism out before he got his on baptism out

37:44

I Was coming in that book and I wanted to make sure that mine was out first Okay Okay, so I'm assuming then there is a lot of similarity there

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In terms of he has a section in that book that that talks about some of the Old Testament motifs of baptism.

38:08

That's why You know, it's not every Baptist book Or book on baptism that kind of ignores the

38:14

Old Testament his was in some ways groundbreaking at least from the perspective of the academics you know that are credentialed to be to go into so much of that depth that he does he makes some of the same connections with creation and the flood and the

38:32

Red Sea and and Those kinds of things that I do in mine But he's obviously an infant

38:38

Baptist so he is a lot of stuff in there that I don't even talk about at all Yes, and Jason is not a pedo

38:47

Baptist. He's a credo Baptist and Is involved with the confessing

38:52

Baptist? Website, so thanks a lot. And by the way Jason You are getting a free copy of Doug Van Dorn's book waters of creation a biblical theological study of baptism

39:05

And that's going to be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service CV BBS calm

39:13

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm and we Thank Todd and Patty Jennings for helping us out in that enormous way by shipping at all of our listeners free books and Bibles when they submit questions

39:30

At no charge to iron sharpens iron or to our listeners, so thanks a lot Cumberland Valley Bible book service and Obviously one of the major issues that has divided

39:46

Christians and Professing Christians is the issue of what is actually going on at a baptism?

39:53

you have those who Are Roman Catholic and even Lutheran who believe that regeneration is taking place and Obviously there would be differences of opinion on some of the finer points and details in that area

40:12

Many of us who are Calvinists would embrace nonetheless many of the

40:19

Conservative confessional Lutherans as our brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'm sure that there's going to be some

40:25

Baptists who are shouting at their radios and computer screens

40:31

That they disagree with that but Tell us about your opinion about what

40:37

God is doing to the recipient of baptism during that ordinance Well baptism is in my understanding.

40:46

It's a setting apart To make to make something holy so it's from common use to special use.

40:53

That's really what You see going on in The baptisms of the

41:00

Old Testament with the tabernacle and that can include the bloody baptisms as I would call them The sprinklings there.

41:08

It's it's taking something that was Had been profaned because of sin and it is

41:14

It's making it holy again now Because we've got things like the

41:20

Ark of the Covenant being made holy or the You know the the lampstand being made holy or in Genesis 1 creation itself being made holy it's not it's not the language of regeneration language of being set apart and In in the life of a

41:37

Christian and in our you know doctrine of salvation we talk about that on a personal level as Sanctification so I think that that's what that's what's happening there is where It's kind of a first process at least it's ideally supposed to be if somebody who's professed

41:54

Christ You know in the New Testament what they do they they confess Christ and they're baptized right away and they're being set apart from that moment in a public sort of a way to serve a

42:07

Holy God in his holy temple as his New Testament priest. So This idea that it refers to regeneration is a confusion between regeneration and sanctification

42:19

I guess you can understand it in the theology of Rome because they they kind of flip the order of sanctification and justification around but you know, we're we're

42:30

Protestants and we don't believe that so and obviously the

42:35

Lutherans also believe in that Regenerational factor of baptism and it seems on the surface to contradict everything else

42:46

Luther believed that he was the the champion of the solos of the Reformation that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone

42:54

And it seems odd that he maintained a belief in baptismal regeneration. Do you know anything about that?

43:01

conflict of his What seems to be a conflict? Really does seem to me like it's a contradictory kind of a thing with Believing you're saved by faith alone versus believing that you're saved that you're regenerated at baptism at an as at the age of an infant

43:23

You kind of have to start doing some weird things with faith like implying Implicit faith or something like like that in the infant of a of a you know a

43:33

Christian family and I just you know, he needed to reform more and become a

43:39

Baptist. What else can you say? And I have heard that That Anabaptists actually at one point brought him close to that point well close to embracing their view, but he thought that it would just be the the seedbed of Anarchy and He had some kind of a strong belief in and the the the citizens of a nation

44:13

Being baptized and being a part of that nation's Declared faith from their infancy so that there would be their whole lives a part of that Confessed faith, but anyway

44:27

That is an interesting Issue now, what about those?

44:33

And they do word it differently. I have friends that I Truly believe our brothers in Christ that have misunderstandings misunderstandings about baptism

44:45

That come out of a restorationist movement Church of Christ Christian church background and that they are not a monolith.

44:55

There are all types of people from that background. I Have even believe it or not met a couple that are

45:01

Calvinistic but that would be rare for sure but when they use the scriptural language of arise and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, how do you work that into a

45:15

Non Non sacramental view or a non salvific view of Baptism Sacraments and What is a sacrament and so we believe in two of those and and we also have the

45:39

Lord's Supper as Protestants and You know, we don't take the view that we're actually eating the body of Christ you know, we feast on Christ in a spiritual way if you take

45:48

Calvin's view and So there's some kind of a mystical union. He thought that was going on at the supper where there was kind of a special Feasting with the

45:58

Christ with Christ who's in heaven, but the sign is Not the thing signified and that's the that's what's really key

46:07

It's a sign it points you to something else. You don't drive by McDonald's Look at the sign and go

46:14

Oh, I'm at McDonald's while you're in your car on the road because you saw a sign you have to walk into the restaurant in order to You know have to be at the place that it's signified and I don't know why

46:26

I always choose McDonald's because I never go there but I was Their sign is like everywhere right there on every corner

46:35

But um, you know same same thing with baptism baptism The the water of baptism is a sign of the thing that is signified which is having been baptized by the

46:45

Holy Spirit In which which I would equate as regeneration Not as some kind of a second blessing that You know charismatics and Pentecostals would would refer to so it's just a confusion of the of the sign and the thing signified yes, and in Acts 10 you have

47:09

The Jewish Christians being rebuked for not Baptizing the

47:14

Gentiles who have the same gift of the Spirit as we do

47:21

Wouldn't that also be an indication that these Gentile believers were already born again because how could you have a

47:29

Spiritually dead lost sinner having the same gift of the Spirit as the as the Christians. Yeah, so it would be that Idea there would seem to just be that you you know, you want to perform the sign

47:41

According to what it signifies something else You know, there's another story in Acts where they've received the baptism of John that they haven't received

47:51

Christian baptism and the disciples like well What's the problem here? And You know, like I said earlier

47:58

John's baptism John the Baptist baptism Signified something other than Christian baptism.

48:04

That was its purpose Yeah, and one thing though that would

48:11

That would seem to militate against the typical Baptist practice including

48:18

Reformed Baptists and I and I'm not Broad brushing because I have learned there are exceptions but it seems that even in this instance in in Acts with Peter You have

48:36

Baptisms occurring and you even mentioned it immediately G Peter commanded the the

48:43

Gentiles to be baptized immediately. We have the The the jailer

48:50

That had imprisoned Paul and the disciples who is baptized that very hour

48:56

I believe In the middle of the night, you know, you have this kind of thing where there's an urgency of involved in in Performing this right or ordinance as soon as one gave a credible profession

49:13

Why don't Baptists do that normally? I Wish I knew the answer to that Chris. I think that that's what we should do.

49:20

Oh you do Okay, so you agree with me on that? Yeah, I agree with you on that. No, I'm not I'm not forcible on it

49:28

I Encourage people that when you make a confession of faith for the first time that you need to you know

49:34

You need to understand what it is that you're believing but I don't think that takes very long according to the book of Acts to understand that and they should be baptized, but you know, it's not a badge of You know how much you know of Christian theology it's a sign that you have submitted to Jesus as King Yeah, and I think that those who believe that water baptism is salvific

50:02

I Think that the their arguments against Baptists and others would have less weight if Baptists in greater numbers

50:14

Practice the ordinance the way the Bible describes it. You understand what I'm saying? Oh, yeah, because because the argument is very often.

50:21

Well, if your view is right Why aren't you baptizing people right away?

50:27

Why are you sometimes waiting a year like for instance some churches say every Easter we baptize people that have become

50:37

Christians and they want to obey Christ in that ordinance and they're gonna make you wait 11 months to do that And and they therefore they should actually be waiting 11 making them wait 11 months to take the

50:50

Lord's Supper Which is strange to me And of course you have others who say we do our baptisms every summer because we like to do it at the beach and You have all kinds of reasons

51:00

You have people who say we have to wait till a month to baptize brother Bill because his family needs to fly in from Chicago or whatever the

51:09

Whatever the case is because you know, they want to make more of a ceremony a celebration of it with people that the person who's being baptized loves and knows in You know to be witnesses of this so any for anything further to say on those issues are those just pragmatic

51:29

Excuses that have no biblical weight to them Yeah, I mean

51:37

I Make it really simple. I think that if we believe in the you know,

51:43

Bible is sufficient for Howard to Live our lives as Christians then we should really probably take how they practice baptism in the book of Acts a little bit more seriously than many of us do and How about are many of us within Baptist and other baptistic

52:04

Churches and fellowships and denominations when I say baptistic obviously, I'm referring to people who believe in credo baptism who believe in Baptism by immersion in water of believers only

52:17

Many of us say this is purely Just as the Lord's Supper is purely a memorial

52:25

This is purely just an outward sign and picture. It has no other significance

52:30

Is that do you think too much of a diminishment of what is actually occurring? Yeah, I actually hold some more means of grace kind of a idea

52:43

More more of a Calvin kind of a view of of how sacraments operate. I do think there's something going on in the spiritual realm

52:51

When we take the Supper and when we're baptized, but like I said, it's it's not for baptism.

52:58

It's not a Regeneration. It's not a justification. It's a sanctification, but that's the work of the

53:03

Holy Spirit to do that And so it's not just a memorial It's a

53:10

It's it is a memorial. It's a sign But it's more than that.

53:15

It's a it's a you are now being ordained To serve a holy

53:20

God as his priest and that's what this washing Is signifying what it's doing for you?

53:28

Let's go to another question. We have Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana, I Recognize where credo baptism is in Scripture, but wonder about the origins of pedo baptism

53:42

Do you know anything about the historical? roots of infant baptism we mentioned earlier that Tertullian is the first person in recorded history to write about infant baptism and he was in opposition to it and it's interesting that the the

53:59

D2k and I know that other people pronounce it differently than that, but That that is there was nothing in there that is the earliest written manual of Christian conduct and practice in the church that is has ever been found in all of antiquity outside of the scriptures and There is no mention of infant baptism in there, which is also very interesting

54:25

But if you could comment on that, do you know anything about the origins of infant baptism? Well, if Tertullian's writing about it

54:33

And disagreeing with it then it obviously the practice has to predate him, right? He's very early

54:39

Mm -hmm, and like early 200s or something is when he's writing You'll talk to a lot of Presbyterians, you know their stuff

54:48

They're gonna argue that the practice goes all the way back to the first century, right? Well, they would say that Jesus when he was even blessing the infants or the children, right?

54:56

He was I mean, well, I don't know that they would use that in terms of that's an actual baptism

55:01

No, but they would use that as an excuse Complicated argument for why they

55:14

Baptize infants, but it wasn't actually baptism itself it's hard to know where the actual origins of it of its start and Certainly the

55:28

Protestants post -reformation Were really using something that the

55:37

Church of Rome had already been practicing and they were it doesn't seem what were their actual a lot of exegetical arguments by the

55:49

Protestants to defend their continuing the baptizing of infants did they use the the

56:00

The circumcision arguments from the Old Covenant carrying that through to the

56:06

New Covenant and all the other things that That the Pato Baptist typically bring out or those later

56:14

Apologetic tools or arguments that came about in history It's a good question.

56:20

I'm not entirely sure I do know that if you go and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church that you'll find the same circumcision

56:26

Abraham infant baptism kind of argument being made there I would assume that they didn't steal that from the

56:34

Presbyterian. Well, they might have though if you took him at the latest Yeah, I mean, it's possible that their catechism is, you know a fairly recent date

56:42

Yeah, because there's all kinds of also liberal novelties that never existed in Rome and centuries past I mean the people who drafted the modern -day catechism may have been executed by the

56:53

Council of Trent Right Yeah, that was a little state of bank the city of a contest joke

57:06

I think Mel Gibson is real strict. Well, at least at one time.

57:12

I don't know about where he is now, but his his family his father was a

57:18

Strict Latin right state of a contest to believe that the Popes were not true

57:23

Popes since Vatican to but anyway We're gonna be going to another break right now.

57:29

And if you'd like to join us on the air As well with a question our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

57:35

By the way I forgot to mention I think to a couple of our listeners who wrote in You're also getting a free copy of the book that we are discussing today on baptism

57:47

Waters of creation a biblical theological study of baptism. Thanks to our guest Doug Van Dorn and the waters of creation publishing ministry that Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado operates and You'll be getting them shipped to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service in Carlisle, Pennsylvania CVB BS comm and we thank

58:11

Again, Todd and Patty Jennings for doing that. So faithfully for us We're gonna be right back after these messages, so don't go away

58:20

I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio And here's one of my favorite guests

58:25

Todd Friel to tell you about a conference. He and I are going to hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a

58:33

TV and occasional guest on Chris's show I Think I think that's what it's called

58:44

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta my new hometown

58:51

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the

58:59

Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Voddie Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people

59:07

We hope to see you there learn more at g3 conference calm g3 conference

59:15

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That's the private story Welcome back.

01:02:35

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours of the program

01:02:40

Is Doug Van Dorn pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado We are discussing one of his many books waters of creation a theological a biblical theological study of baptism

01:02:54

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:02:59

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and we have Linda in Hilltop Lakes, Texas who says

01:03:07

How were the how were the 3 ,000 converts baptized in Acts 2 41

01:03:15

I heard George Grant once say that would be a good argument for sprinkling and When you answer that I want you to be as kind as possible to dr

01:03:24

Grant who I happen to have a lot of high opinions of he is gonna be my guest on Thursday October 6th on iron sharpens iron if he's returning as a guest and really enjoy him for many reasons but obviously disagree with him on Baptism since he is a

01:03:39

Presbyterian, but if you could comment on that Really no, no,

01:03:47

I've never even thought about it. I don't know why it would necessitate Sprinkling and you just assume that there's not a place where you can go and baptize a bunch of people in the water

01:03:59

I don't know why we would have to assume that that's the case though Yeah, it's interesting that there were comments in Scripture in the

01:04:06

God -breathed writings of the Bible that Baptisms were taking place because there was much water there and so on right exactly and This is this is something that I find interesting and kind of comical

01:04:22

I have had my Presbyterian brethren and friends Joke and laugh and mock when they say that one that when we say one of the proofs for immersion in water is the verses that allude to both the baptizer and the baptizee going down into the water and They chuckle and they say well if you're going to use that as an argument, you're gonna

01:04:52

Be saying that the person baptizing also was immersed and My response is no, that's ridiculous

01:05:02

What it means is if they're being sprinkled or having a little bit of water poured on them

01:05:07

Why would anybody have to go down into the water? they could do it on the the shore of the

01:05:14

Lake or the stream or the the bank of the stream of the river or the shore of the the ocean and so on They wouldn't have to go into the water to sprinkle somebody

01:05:25

But I mean you don't you see the the illogical or the the comical? Mockery that they they hurled towards us having no weight.

01:05:35

Well, right I mean, they're just there when you assume that it's sprinkling Then you kind of have to you have to run with that assumption.

01:05:43

And what I what I do with the question is I Ask well, where did baptism come from?

01:05:48

Let's look at the baptisms of the Old Testament. Let's figure out what they Symbolized, you know, they're all symbolizing some kind of a death burial and a resurrection

01:05:58

Some people die in the in the baptisms all the people in the flood except for eight died in that immersion baptism

01:06:05

The others made it through the figure then would be that they came, you know, they were they were submerged in the baptism

01:06:12

They came out alive, you know, you can't God didn't have actual resurrections going on there.

01:06:18

So It's figurative but that's that's what Paul says in Romans chapter 6 when he's trying to explain some of the

01:06:27

Symbolism going on and then you know Look and see where didn't where did Jesus and baptism come from?

01:06:34

And what kind of a baptism was it? And well, it's very clear that it wasn't a sprinkling because they have perfectly good words for sprinkling

01:06:41

And that's not the word that they use for that particular ordination ceremony of the priest. They use the word

01:06:48

That is translated often as a bath, so that seems to me to be the reason why we should immerse because That's where it comes from.

01:07:00

So unless the New Testament changes it. I don't think that we have the right to go changing it So you would say that those

01:07:07

Pato Baptists to insist that Baptizo Only means to wash it does not mean to immerse you're saying that they're incorrect

01:07:18

Yeah, I mean I Don't make as big of a deal over the way that it's administered as a lot of people do but I do

01:07:27

Take the view that the word means to dip and and You know, that's what you see going on in the in the baptism of Naaman Which is the only place where the

01:07:41

Septuagint actually uses that word baptism So the sprinkling of blood in the

01:07:47

Old Covenant is a different word, well obviously it would be a Hebrew word, you're right Yeah, there's an appendix

01:07:52

I have at the end of the book that looks at I think six different words they have three different words that are all kind of synonyms for sprinkling and they have three words that are kind of, you know washing or Immersing or taking a bath or dipping or whatever we have a listener a first -time

01:08:13

Questioner, I don't know if he's a first -time listener. He's a first -time questioner Sean in Centennial, Colorado Asks, how can this book be used to counter?

01:08:24

Pato Baptist arguments and he also asks is the aim to bridge the gap between Pato and Crato Baptists.

01:08:34

Oh Boy, that's a good question. That's actually kind of gets at the at some of the heart of why I wrote the book well

01:08:45

I mean, it's kind of a long answer. That's fine. We got we got plenty of time. All right, so You know going into the thinking of this was you know trying to trying to understand why do infant

01:09:01

Baptists make the argument that they make and the most basic thing that I would say about that is that they're trying to go to the

01:09:08

Old Testament to make an argument and their argument is that It's an argument not from baptism, but from covenant.

01:09:17

So it there the argument rests on their view of covenant theology, which is why in some ways the you know, a discussion of baptism really does have to Talk about covenant theology, at least if we're talking about Reformed Christians and how we talk about it, right?

01:09:33

So they're not they're not going back to baptisms they're going back to covenant and they make this argument that And I think there's some

01:09:43

I Think there's some implicit Just assumptions that are going on that I would deny but they'll say things like Abraham is the covenant of grace and all infants were

01:09:57

Circumcised into the covenant of grace or they'll say, you know male infants were and so We're still in the covenant of grace today.

01:10:08

And so Infants should be included in the covenant of grace. And so therefore baptism is the replacement sign and That's actually the language that is used by many pedo -baptists.

01:10:21

I got chastised once for using that language of Them saying that baptism replaces circumcision, but you can read it all over the place in their literature

01:10:30

That's what many of them talk about But That's why they end up baptizing infants is because the infants in the

01:10:39

Abrahamic covenant of grace were Were given the sacraments of the

01:10:47

Covenant So I looked at that and I'm like like most Baptists I go well, there's a lot of things here that I just have a lot of problems with But what

01:10:57

I didn't have a problem with Per se was trying to go to the Old Testament to figure out if baptism has any relation to it.

01:11:05

I Also didn't have necessarily a problem thinking about it in terms of covenant relationship with immersion

01:11:15

Believers baptism, so I just started to dig and that's where when when

01:11:20

I discovered that Jesus was Being Baptized in fulfillment of a particular

01:11:27

Levitical right a right that just so happens to be an Ordination, so it's the very beginning of their life as a priest and not only this

01:11:37

But it's a it's a sacrament That is the ordination sacrament of a very particular covenant in the

01:11:48

Old Testament Oh, so then I thought well now wait a minute Old Testament sacramental baptism occurs in one covenant and One covenant only which is called the

01:12:00

Levitical Covenant The Levitical Covenant is a covenant that You will hardly ever read

01:12:07

Being discussed in covenant theology books you do find it in some you find it in some of the Puritans You find it in a book here a book there, but for the most part.

01:12:17

It's the one covenant. That is just kind of disregarded I don't think that that's a smart thing to do at all.

01:12:23

I don't think it's justifiable to do that, and I think it's actually Been something that has hurt the

01:12:29

Baptist cause in terms of making an argument from the Old Testament for 400 years

01:12:34

We this is this is a really really important thing to think about if we're gonna

01:12:40

If we're going to be rooting baptism in the Old Testament if we have a right to do that if we can do that Then what happens if we see that baptism is actually attached to a very particular covenant in the

01:12:52

Old Testament well now all of a sudden You say well who was baptized in that covenant? Well it wasn't infants

01:13:00

It was people that were you know the characteristics that Jesus had at his baptism

01:13:06

And so what I would want to say is kind of turn the tables on the way that an infant Baptist makes his argument

01:13:12

He'll say well unless the New Testament Changes the way that the that the covenant sign was given

01:13:19

We don't have a right to change it in the New Testament, and so I want to say yeah, you're exactly right

01:13:25

That's exactly what it should be unless the New Testament changes the way That baptism was administered

01:13:33

In the covenant of Levi which Jesus is fulfilling then we don't have a right to change it

01:13:40

Well as a matter of fact the New Testament does change Quite a few things about the way that that took place because the priesthood has changed so There's a you know.

01:13:50

There's a great story in Acts chapter 8 of this Ethiopian eunuch You might remember earlier.

01:13:55

We were talking about Isaiah and he just so happens to be reading the scroll of Isaiah and When he gets it done he looks at the

01:14:06

Apostle, and he says well, why shouldn't I be baptized? Which seems like a really strange question to ask when you're reading the scroll of Isaiah But when you understand that he had just read about himself being a priest because he's a eunuch and because he's a

01:14:21

Gentile and When he makes this connection with baptism all of a sudden it makes perfect sense well of course

01:14:27

I should be baptized because that's what I'm supposed to do according to the According to the future promises that Isaiah was giving us which have been fulfilled in Christ One of the things that It seems.

01:14:44

I don't know how much you have read up on or studied about the federal vision movement

01:14:52

But it seems that they are trying to be logically consistent taking a lot of Presbyterian or Pato Baptist thought to what they would consider logical conclusions and one of them include the fact that if you believe that Baptism enters you into the covenant and Infants are to be baptized you are going to have in the covenant in the new covenant

01:15:22

Where Christ is mediating? between us and the father

01:15:29

You're going to have reprobate Individuals in that covenant and the big question is how is

01:15:38

Christ mediating for these people is he failing is he? Not a perfect mediator. Is that is that a good question to bring into the discussion

01:15:46

I? Think it certainly is a question that comes up It's not just a federal vision people.

01:15:53

I mean you've got that's kind of classic Yes, but the federal vision just to bring it forward even

01:16:01

I think in a stronger way Where they are including infants in the communion table?

01:16:08

they one of the federal vision chief proponents

01:16:13

Greg Strawbridge baptizes unbelieving spouses of believers

01:16:23

Yes, then he does and I in fact I specifically asked him that Question from the audience at a debate he had with dr.

01:16:32

James R. White on the issue of infant baptism, and I was not expecting him to say that Yeah, and he did say first person

01:16:41

I've ever run into that's actually willing to take it consistently like that. Yeah, he and he said Not only do

01:16:47

I agree with it? I do But I'll tell you something though He did and you'll have to watch and listen to the video of the debate do they still use the word video?

01:16:57

But the the DVD of the debate or the YouTube of the debate

01:17:04

He did he makes a Qualification that really I think sunk the argument into the depth of the sea no pun intended

01:17:11

When he said if the woman is demonstrating that she wants to follow

01:17:17

Jesus, but it's not clear that she's a Christian I will I will baptize her Yes, I know and The the moderator did not press him on it.

01:17:29

I wish the moderator Had really pressed him on that to get you know to have him clarify or harmonize the apparent contradiction in what he was saying it would have been more more in harmony with his view is if she was an atheist and Just said

01:17:48

I am doing this because I love my husband and I want to be submissive to him You know, that would be the the more logical way to harmonize those things

01:17:59

But anyway, we do have Tyler and mastic

01:18:05

Beach Long Island who asks Well, you've already brought this up so Tyler's question is a bit

01:18:15

Outdated if it for lack of a better But you perhaps you want to add to your your discussion on this how does

01:18:23

Baptism affects one's view of the covenant. Well, they you know, they they play off of each other

01:18:31

I was going to actually bring this up That when I wrote the baptism book, it's been oh,

01:18:37

I guess almost ten years ago now. I Was working on this. I actually tried to stay away from a particular view of covenant theology.

01:18:45

In fact, I I Thought well, why do I what why not just use a pedo -baptist view of covenant theology and kind of assume that that general understanding of You know all the

01:18:58

Old Testament covenants are the covenant of grace and just we'll just use that and see what happens with it

01:19:05

So my my argument for baptism doesn't actually assume any particular view of covenant theology

01:19:11

I've since later as a lot of us reform Baptist have kind of discovered the 1689 federalism view of covenant theology, which seems it's it makes more sense to me.

01:19:22

So that's why I kind of wrote that book on Covenant theology was what I was working that out in my head as I was teaching the people in our church

01:19:29

It's related but it's not It's not essential to my view of baptism.

01:19:36

What is essential is that? Is to understand that yes baptism is related to covenants in the

01:19:43

Old Testament But it's not related to the Abrahamic covenant

01:19:51

Not in not in the way that the infant Baptist want to make it be related to would you say that a

01:20:01

Lot of the The misunderstanding

01:20:08

Or the drawing wrong conclusions About baptism that Are done by those who believe in baptismal regeneration or believe that baptism is in some way salvific

01:20:22

I know that there is a disagreement amongst those Who believe in the salvific nature of baptism as to whether or not to call it baptismal regeneration not all of them

01:20:33

Would say that would use that phrase to describe their own view But don't you think a lot of it has to do with going back to the core of the doctrines of grace of Reform theology that clearly reveals from the pages of Scripture that man is helpless and dead in his sin prior to his regeneration and therefore you're not going to have a willing

01:21:03

Participant standing in a baptismal tank eagerly awaiting to obey

01:21:09

Christ in this ordinance If he's still dead in his sins Yeah, you're bringing up a really interesting point

01:21:18

Which is that it works for infants right because they don't really have much of a choice in the matter They write it.

01:21:23

They just get baptized but for adults You don't have a lot of unwilling

01:21:30

Adults being baptized even in Rome I mean maybe a long time ago when they would just kind of Force the pagan countries that they went into to all be baptized and make them

01:21:39

Christian But you know, they're not doing that today. The Lutherans aren't doing that the Anglicans aren't doing that Presbyterians aren't doing that They're not they're not baptizing adults against their will which does seem to presuppose that those who are being baptized have already been regenerated

01:21:56

Yeah, and in fact most of those who believe if not all today Who believe in the salvific nature of baptism would say you cannot force a person to baptize it would make it illegitimate because repentance

01:22:10

Is a necessary requirement and I'm speaking of those outside of Rome Typically because I'm not sure how hold how hard they would hold fast to the concept of Repentance being it being a requirement.

01:22:26

I think that you would probably get the Roman Catholic Church to baptize anyone who was Interested in willing especially if they just wanted to make peace in a family that was a mixed marriage or something

01:22:38

But but those that take it more seriously that they seem to would insist that baptism is

01:22:44

That it would necessitate an evidence of genuine faith and repentance first Not somebody just saying yeah, why not?

01:22:53

Yeah, I'll go through the Duncan thing, you know It's gonna make my parents happy or it's gonna make my wife happy or whatever, you know

01:23:01

They typically they're not going to baptize that person. So there needs to be a change of heart that takes place before that person is eager and willing to have this this ordinance performed and What how did that happen that's the issue that the the

01:23:19

Sovereign Grace believer the Calvinist if you want to nickname him that or the the

01:23:24

Reformed Christian. That's where we have Historically, I believe brought to the surface of the pages of Scripture that That's why

01:23:39

You know, there is a very serious issue in the scripture that reveals the nature of man being totally depraved

01:23:46

He is dead in his sin and when when he is quickened to new life He is being regenerate

01:23:55

You know while he is in the midst of his deadness He is brought to life and that happens before any willingness to obey and follow

01:24:04

Christ Right Exactly, and that's why you know, that's why

01:24:09

I'd link baptism into sanctification It's kind of ideally again going to going to the axe model at least

01:24:16

Baptism is kind of supposed to be the first Good work if you will that a Christian does in his life.

01:24:23

It's the first it's the first act of obedience He finishes reading the scroll of Isaiah and he looks at the

01:24:30

Apostle and says why shouldn't I be baptized? Like that's the first thing that came to his mind

01:24:37

Yes, amen and What about the argument that some of our many of our paedo -baptist brethren and friends will say?

01:24:48

that Who are you to talk about? Baptizing unbelievers meaning infants and including them in the covenant as being

01:25:00

Ridiculous and unbiblical and harmful when Baptists do that all the time there are so many cases of Baptist church members and even

01:25:10

Baptist pastors being excommunicated because they later proved to be false converts or charlatans or or Backsliders in the midst of unrepentant wickedness and You know, they are

01:25:25

Removed from the church and therefore you have proved that you baptized an unbeliever.

01:25:32

Isn't the difference though with the intention? Yeah, I mean so there is a there is a strand

01:25:38

I suppose in in kind of more hyper Baptist Calvinist groups that want to Kind of make sure that the person that they're baptizing are elect and I my thought is how in the world could anybody but that?

01:25:53

Person ever know that you know, and even that person can't infallibly know that Exactly.

01:26:00

Exactly. So we're not baptizing the elect We're baptizing believers and that means that we're baptizing people that profess

01:26:08

Christ now an infant can't profess Christ But somebody like Simon the

01:26:13

Sorcerer could profess Christ and he was baptized and he was called a believer

01:26:19

Now there's the there's a there's a separate question of whether or not we're we're baptizing them into the covenant and I I think that There's often a confusion

01:26:30

That says that the church is the covenant and the covenant is the church

01:26:35

So if you're baptizing them, you're baptizing them into the covenant and I would say no

01:26:41

You're baptizing them into the visible church Those who are in the covenant God knows who those people are and they were in the covenant before if they were regenerated before they were ever baptized

01:26:54

Amen, we are going to our final break right now And by the way, I think

01:27:00

I forgot to mention an extra bit of good news to Sean Who is in Highlands Ranch, Colorado Not only are you getting a free copy of our guest book

01:27:15

Doug Van Doren's book Waters of Creation Since you are a first -time

01:27:21

Questioner in our audience. You are also on top of that getting a brand new copy of the

01:27:26

New American Standard Bible a beautiful Compact edition of the

01:27:32

NASB It's not quite pocket -sized, but it's small enough to easily carry around Women can carry them around easily in their pocketbooks men and perhaps a coat pocket

01:27:43

Easily fitting in a briefcase and so on this is a beautiful edition that has an embossed cross on the cover and I've been getting rave reviews from our listeners for this

01:27:55

Bible and we thank the publishers of the NASB for Sponsoring our program ever since it first began way back in 2006

01:28:04

So thanks again to the publishers of the New American Standard Bible and you'll be getting that in addition to The book by Doug Van Doren Sean, so thank you very much.

01:28:14

We're going to our final break right now And if you would like to join us our email address is

01:28:23

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com I do have to say that we are out of Doug Van Doren's book now.

01:28:33

We've given them away to As many as we could and but if you have any new time questioners out there

01:28:42

We will certainly give you a free New American Standard Bible if you've never

01:28:49

Written in to us before and won one. So we're gonna be right back after these messages.

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01:33:55

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

01:34:01

I trying to please Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

01:34:10

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01:35:18

Welcome back This is Chris Arnsin And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next half hour to come we have been

01:35:25

Interviewing and will continue to interview Doug Van Dorn Pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado and author of the book.

01:35:33

We have been discussing waters of creation a biblical theological study of baptism and if you could

01:35:42

Doug go through some more of the implications for Christian baptism in this final 25 minutes or so that we have

01:35:52

Well, you know the main the main implication of it is I think it's important to reiterate it because I don't think it's really

01:36:02

Emphasized or even really very well understood for a lot of people that when we're baptized

01:36:10

We're being we're being Ordained into the New Testament priesthood and you know a lot of times you hear this idea that You know, there's no such thing as a temple anymore

01:36:23

Sacrifices have all gone away And I understand what they mean in one respect there is no physical temple we don't offer bloody sacrifices

01:36:32

Those kinds of things but the New Testament is replete with language that Christians are to serve

01:36:40

God in ways that are priestly ways offering sacrifices

01:36:48

You know doing all sorts of work that the priest did in the Old Testament But we don't do it in a in a physical location in Jerusalem on top of Mount Zion we do it wherever the wherever the church is wherever his people are and we

01:37:04

You know, so there's this continuity that takes place between in the old and new in terms of an idea of a priesthood in terms of an idea of what it is that what that they do and Baptism is kind of the thing that begins the whole thing, you know when

01:37:20

Jesus Is baptized and almost everybody recognizes this at least

01:37:25

It's at his baptism that he begins his his ministry as a priest on on earth

01:37:32

Now he also begins acting as a king and prophet as well in an official capacity but he's doing all kinds of priestly work in his

01:37:41

Three three three and a half years of ministry before he dies on the cross, which of course is death on the cross

01:37:48

Is his ultimate priestly work because he's offering as the high priest himself as the sacrifice for our sin we have

01:38:02

CJ and Lindenhurst Long Island who wants to know if a person who believes

01:38:09

That when they were baptized as a believer they were faking a

01:38:17

Conversion if later on in life they became truly born again

01:38:23

Should you rebaptize that person since in reality since there was no genuine repentance or faith in Fact a fraud had occurred

01:38:34

That person was never really baptized to begin with Yeah, I know there's a lot of differences of opinion on this, right?

01:38:42

Yes My own personal view is that you shouldn't because I view baptism as a not as a thing itself, but it's a sign of something that's signified and when the when even a

01:38:56

Person like that who may look back on it and say they were deceived or something Nevertheless, they were still if it was a if it was being done properly.

01:39:04

Anyway, they were professing Christ at that time and That is the point of what baptism is supposed to signify is that you are

01:39:13

You're bowing the knee to Christ and you know, once it's performed it it it's not like it's going to signify something different when you later come to Say the well,

01:39:23

I'm I believe I'm truly believe now and another another another part of that is well What happens if the second time that you you know now

01:39:32

I really believe and knock have gotten gotten rebaptized But then you all the way again, you know for five years and you come back and go

01:39:39

I don't think I was really saved that time either. But now I know I am But is there but isn't there a difference between somebody who is knowingly perpetrating a fraud like I even know of a case a really horrible case where a woman who was

01:40:02

Dating a man before she was a Christian. She was dating a non -believer She became a believer they had been dating for years, by the way, and even had a couple of children out of wedlock,

01:40:17

I think and They when the woman became a believer. She said that she had to break off a relationship with the young man and the young man faked a

01:40:29

Conversion so that she would marry him and And And on the honeymoon, he said guess what

01:40:37

I faked it. I'm not a Christian. I don't believe in this stuff I just did it so you'd marry me. No Now isn't there a difference between that and somebody who's like, you know when

01:40:46

I look back at my my past I really probably was not a believer after all.

01:40:53

I mean there is a difference, isn't there? Well, certainly there's a difference on the inside of a person But the baptism itself is still an objective thing that happens to them from the outside.

01:41:03

There's no difference in the baptism. Hmm So I even even in a case like that I would say

01:41:10

I wouldn't get rebaptized but I will also have the caveat that in my own You know practices pastor for 14 years that I leave that open to the you know, the the person's conscience

01:41:21

So you wouldn't say that the person was sinning and by doing it Well, they probably were sinning by doing it no, no,

01:41:27

I mean to have a another baptism performed Yeah, I mean

01:41:33

I kind of I I guess we just don't have a lot of data on that in the New Testament so I kind of put that in the category of Audiophora, you know the disputable matters and I would leave that up to a person's conscience

01:41:47

But I do have my own opinion on the matter, which is that I don't think they should be rebaptized By the way,

01:41:53

I have to I've repeated it on this program a couple of times I heard a line years ago by a young black

01:42:04

Christian preacher on TV. He was a guest on some show. I think he was even

01:42:12

Not even a teenager at this point just a very Faithful enthusiastic

01:42:19

Christian young man and he was talking about baptism and he said

01:42:26

By the way, if you think that baptism is going to get you to heaven if you go in that tank of devil

01:42:32

You're just gonna come up a wet devil That's why again at the end of the day,

01:42:40

I mean, yeah, I guess you can get rebaptized but what what difference is it gonna make For you know that objective state of who you are

01:42:48

Either in Christ or not in Christ Amen Now this is a interesting something that you said about this brings into play

01:43:00

Something that normally would not involve a Baptist. That's really a

01:43:05

Presbyterian Lutheran and Dutch Reformed issue of those that practice infant baptism

01:43:13

There is a difference among them On whether or not

01:43:19

Roman Catholic baptism is a valid baptism and Probably today in the 21st century most

01:43:27

Pato Baptists do accept Roman Catholic baptism as a valid biblical baptism and there are some that do not in fact

01:43:35

I am going to be interviewing at Presbyterian at some point in the future. God willing a

01:43:41

Presbyterian pastor who does take The unpopular view that a

01:43:46

Roman Catholic baptism is not valid but That normally would not involve a

01:43:53

Baptist because we would say well if anybody that was baptized as an infant It's not really a baptism

01:44:00

But what about a person having said what you said about it not really mattering if the person inwardly was already regenerate they received a

01:44:12

Valid ordinance, so we're not going to Reperform that unless the person is really insisting upon it.

01:44:20

What about the person that comes to faith? Later in life and Is baptized even by immersion by a

01:44:31

Roman Catholic priest because I know that it does happen It's not typical, but it does happen especially

01:44:37

People who go on vacation to Israel and then do all kinds of other things and they want to get baptized in the

01:44:43

Jordan and You know, there are occasions I've heard of where Catholic priests have baptized believers by immersion because they came to faith later in life but so is that a valid baptism in your opinion

01:44:58

Friend are you trying to like get me fired? No, this is just iron sharpening

01:45:10

I Mean so I Don't know.

01:45:16

Maybe maybe my view is kind of unpopular we have in our confession of faith that the that you know, the

01:45:22

Pope is the Antichrist and You know, I kind of take an exception to that as a lot of Baptists Do they have our confession now?

01:45:30

I might do it in a little bit of a different way though than they do I Certainly believe that Rome has really utterly confused its presentation of the gospel and justification

01:45:43

I Don't think that the language of at least the

01:45:49

Antichrist as it's found in in the epistles of John fits Rome Because it says things like they deny that Christ has come in the flesh

01:45:58

They deny that he's from God and those kinds of things Rome doesn't actually do that. So They're you know, they're they're

01:46:06

Badly mistaken on some really important things. It's kind of more like the Galatian heresy,

01:46:11

I think than anything else but they hold to the Apostles Creed and they hold to the

01:46:18

Nicene Creed and That that is the gospel so, you know, it's it's a kind of a case of Being you know, badly badly confused and leading people astray in that confusion, but Nevertheless, but it seems to me that the

01:46:39

God that they're baptizing people in the name of is the God of Nicaea So I don't know how

01:46:45

I can say that that's invalid when they're Professing that same

01:46:50

God that could get me into trouble. But I mean, that's the way I think about it objectively

01:46:57

It is interesting that the Eastern Orthodox Baptize everybody even babies by immersion.

01:47:05

Yeah, they do and so that would not even involve a Unusual circumstance with a

01:47:12

Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox Person priest baptizing an adult by immersion because that's the way they always do it.

01:47:19

In fact anybody who ever saw My big fat Greek wedding you may recall that the young man

01:47:27

Marrying the Greek girl. They had to bring in a kiddie pool into the church for him to be dunked but anyway,

01:47:36

I really Before I go to any other listeners that are anxiously waiting

01:47:44

Oh, by the way, I want to mention something that I failed to mention our listener in Indianapolis, Indiana Wrote in Aaron and she said something and she gave us a very kind gesture

01:47:56

She said I've been blessed with so much information and many books from iron sharpens iron

01:48:02

If another listener writes, please send my copy to him or her So CJ and Lennonhurst Long Island who was our last?

01:48:11

questioner You're gonna get that Free book by Doug Van Dorn not only compliments of him and words of creation publishing

01:48:20

But also compliments of Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana. That was very kind of you Aaron. In fact, that's the first time

01:48:27

I think In our audience. Well, actually no, actually no I do remember a couple of times when someone made that kind offer and we're gonna send you

01:48:35

Aaron a different book don't know what it is right now, but we'll find something to send to you and We appreciate your your kindness for that we want to reward you for that Now I really want to make sure that before I go to anybody else

01:48:50

That you have the floor to just really Solidify everything that you want to say in summary form that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

01:49:03

Yeah, we've talked about most of the things that are in the book There's there's one large section kind of in the middle of the book that's actually my favorite part of the book and that's actually the it's a biblical theological study of the temple and seeing baptism in the temple and The reason

01:49:22

I like it so much is because it draws pictures for me in my mind that helped me understand more the meaning of baptism

01:49:30

So what I do is I and I kind of attached this to each of the covenants of the

01:49:35

Old Testament and then to the New Covenant but if you take just a you know, basic picture of the tabernacle or the temple a diagram of it and you see that there's the three kind of stations you've got the courtyard in the holy place in the most holy place and God for whatever reason decided that he wanted to put an altar in the courtyard and then inside of that He put this bronze laver that later becomes the great sea

01:50:04

In Solomon's temple, it's actually called the sea. It's gigantic like 10 ,000 gallons

01:50:09

Not exactly something that you just used to sprinkle little people with right? It's a massive thing and Anyway, you have to go through the you had to go to the altar and offer your sacrifice and if you're a priest

01:50:26

You know, I even a person you had to be washed and only then if you're a priest Are you allowed to enter into the holy place?

01:50:33

That's just it's pictured for us the order of it and then inside the holy place you have what and you've got the food and you've got the kind of the lampstand which is a tree of life kind of an idea and Then you can go and serve inside that temple doing the things that they do and then

01:50:52

Inside the most holy place is the law well, if you go to any number of other temple ideas and The book that really explains this the best in terms of showing that these are temples is probably

01:51:07

Greg Beals book on the temple I forget what the big long title of it is, but an excellent excellent book and If what you find is that the

01:51:20

Garden of Eden is a temple and it's got a water motif in it with the rivers You can go to The flood and you find that the

01:51:29

Ark of Noah is a temple and it's got water all around it and you go to the promised land of Abraham and you find that there's this there's actually two important water features in that one

01:51:41

You've got the Euphrates River that forms a boundary that Abraham symbolically crosses and by the way both both

01:51:48

Isaac and Jacob also have to cross that Euphrates River It's a symbolic sort of a thing of going out and then coming back into the land which becomes

01:51:56

God's temple You've got Mount Sinai which is it forms a temple and it's got a water feature when

01:52:04

Moses strikes the rock And the people end up washing in it right before the

01:52:09

Ten Commandments you've got the tabernacle bin with the Levites and then you've got the temple in the

01:52:16

Davidic Covenant to both have the water feature in it and then all of this I mean they're in and I have a kind of a map inside of there that inside the book that shows the

01:52:27

Kind of the pictures how similar the ideas of baptism are in each of those

01:52:34

Temple ideas and then you come to the New Testament and you find that You've got you still got the symbolic idea of baptism, but it's fulfilled now in Christ who is like the water of life and you know, he fulfills all sorts of other ideas in the temple as well

01:52:53

But just focusing on baptism He does that and so we're baptized into him because he's the he's the fullness of all those

01:53:02

Old Testament Typological temples. He's the he's the antitype and You know just when

01:53:09

I teach that to people they're just really amazed at how consistent the

01:53:15

Bible is in its presentation of this theme of baptism that I like to tell people when

01:53:21

I'm when I'm kind of arguing against Pato Baptist that Baptism doesn't replace circumcision because baptism

01:53:30

Precedes circumcision it exists right alongside of circumcision and it postdates circumcision it's the sign of Anytime God makes a new creation and creates a new temple and that what he's doing in the

01:53:44

New Testament was people and That's as I find it a beautiful picture that that God's given to us over and over and over and over again in his word

01:53:55

Amen and Let's see, we have Harry jr. In Brooklyn, New York Who says

01:54:04

I know that the oneness? Pentecostals do not believe a

01:54:09

Trinitarian baptism is valid but is a baptism in the name of Jesus only

01:54:16

Valid if it's done with the understanding that God is a

01:54:21

Trinity It's like let's throw every kind of you know, odd thing that we can at me, right

01:54:36

Pretty pretty good. I mean if it's if it's being done in the name of Jesus and You are a

01:54:44

Trinitarian. I Guess that that's that would be okay because we understand what that means

01:54:49

But if it's being done in the name of Jesus and a oneness Pentecostal You know group then that wouldn't be valid because they don't believe in the

01:54:59

Trinity same kind of an idea is You know, would it be okay to accept a

01:55:04

Mormon baptism? Because they say they believe in Jesus. I'd say no because they don't believe in Jesus Right and that's why

01:55:18

Some of those of our Breath of our brethren in the

01:55:24

Presbyterian and other Pato Baptist circles when they say a baptism as a baptism as a baptism

01:55:30

Well when they defend Roman Catholic baptism that is It is to me odd because I don't think that they would really be consistent in welcoming any cults

01:55:43

Converts Into their own fold. It's funny. I actually start the book off in the in the introduction.

01:55:49

I think it's on the very first page Explaining how the Egyptians had baptism and how they actually had baptism in South America before we ever got over here

01:55:59

So like nobody's gonna accept those just because it's quote -unquote baptism because they don't believe in the same

01:56:06

God that we believe in Yeah We Have a

01:56:13

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who says Most Baptist churches that I have been in when they have the

01:56:21

Lord's Supper. They say that only those who have been Scripturally baptized may partake of the supper if you do that as well

01:56:32

Does that mean you restrict Pato Baptists who are truly born -again believers from the supper?

01:56:41

There's two things I would answer there and one goes back to an earlier conversation that we have that I believe that infant

01:56:48

Baptists are Christians and They've just received the sign improperly, but they've still received the sign

01:56:55

So I'd say that they've been baptized, but they've been baptized improperly, but they've been baptized in the name of the

01:57:01

Christian God So we let them take the supper and I don't think that's inconsistent because they're

01:57:06

Christians The second thing I would want to say is that the reason why We do that practice

01:57:14

We don't let somebody take the Lord's Supper unless they've been baptized And this

01:57:20

I say this because I actually didn't understand this for a long time But when I got that Temple idea stuck firmly in my head.

01:57:28

It made all the sense in the world go back to the tabernacle and Where is the baptism? It's outside of the holy place

01:57:36

But inside the holy place you actually have this meal That is a type of the

01:57:41

Lord's Supper inside the holy place on the table there It's the same meal the showbread that David takes on that one instance when he gets really hungry

01:57:50

So God has provided the the meal for his saints

01:57:57

Once they come into the holy temple, but in order to get inside of there You have to actually in the

01:58:04

New Testament, you know You have to be baptized because that is the sign that you have been set apart as a holy sanctified person in the

01:58:14

New Testament temple Very briefly. We have Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania who wants to know can any

01:58:20

Christian baptize a professing believer Not just an elder

01:58:27

Yeah, that's another tough one We we don't do that practice we just have elders do that We might allow a deacon to as there if they've been ordained into an office.

01:58:41

We haven't had that situation come up It's a tough one Just for the sake that we've been talking a little bit today about the priesthood of the believer.

01:58:51

So there's a sense in which Everyone is a priest but the fact of the matter is there was a sense in which everyone is a priest in Israel That's why

01:59:00

God says I make you a nation of priests and then he set aside a specific group called the priest later on And you know,

01:59:12

I see that I see the offices of elder and deacon kind of being a Antitype of the

01:59:19

Old Testament priesthood, so That's the reason why we don't do it in our church. We don't just let anybody who feels like baptizing baptized

01:59:26

I think it's an it's an ordinance of the church. It's a public sort of a thing in it to be done in Okay, we're out of time and if anybody would like to find out more about pastor

01:59:41

Doug Van Dorn his church and his writing go To Doug Van Dorn calm Doug Van Dorn calm.

01:59:48

I want to thank you Doug I look forward to having you back in the future and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater