Atheist Vs Christian: Do Ethics Depend On God?

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Good evening. My name is Jason Wallace. I'm the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church It is our great pleasure to have you with us this evening

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We have been doing debates here at the University of Utah for over 20 years mainly involving dr.

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James White involving a number of others as well over the years We have information on our

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Congregation in the back if you enjoy the work of dr. White, he will be preaching for us

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He'll be teaching Sunday school at 945 and preaching at 11 He'll also be preaching at apology as church plant in West Jordan.

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We're in Magna and Apology has a table in the back as well

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We're very grateful to Rossio Christie the campus ministry that has worked with us to bring this event to you

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They have a table in the back as well we live in a day of soundbites of memes and Very little substantive interaction with people.

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We disagree. We live all too often in echo chambers We are of the conviction that no one has anything to fear from the truth but liars and That rather than shouting each other down.

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We need to actually listen and respond and So we have been putting on these debates and we are very privileged to have our participants that we have with us this evening

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These men are here without Compensation they are here as a gift to you.

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And so I ask that you show respect to both sides. I Have asked that you refrain from applause or from any kind of disdain

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Until the end when we can show our gratitude to all our speakers We are privileged to have with us

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Dr. Dean Chatterjee He is faculty affiliate at the

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Oxford Consortium for Human Rights the inst at the Institute for ethics law and armed conflict at Oxford University He is a global ethics fellow at the

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Carnegie Council for ethics in international affairs and Earlier, he was a senior fellow here at the

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SJ Quinney School of Law at the University of Utah We also have with us chaplain

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Jared Anderson He has an MA from UNC Chapel Hill and Masters of Divinity from United Theological Seminary of the

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Twin Cities He has served as chaplain and hospice prisons and hospitals He taught

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Bible for 13 years at UNC and at the University of Utah He taught world religions at Westminster College.

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He is the founder and president of the Olam Institute he is on the board of directors of the humanist of Utah and the board of directors of Salt Lake Interfaith Roundtable To my left we have

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Dr. James White. He is the director of Alpha Omega Ministries. He is Also pastor at Apologia Church He is the author of over 20 books including letters to a

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Mormon elder is the Mormon my brother the King James only Controversy The God who justifies the potter's freedom and many more

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He has done Literally dozens of debates here in Utah over the years and has been a great blessing to the church here

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We also have pastor Jeff Durbin. He is founding pastor of Apology a church in Mesa, Arizona He is also

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I forgot to get your specific title Founder of an end abortion now is that head of an abortion now

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And he has also been very gracious to us in the past. He and dr. White spoke three and a half years ago in this room in another debate and this debate was supposed to be the immediate follow -up and Kovat came along but here we are and These men have been very gracious to be with us

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The question for us this evening is Is God necessary for ethics?

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The structure of our debate is going to be 20 minute opening statements from each side Followed by 10 minute rebuttals.

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We will take a five minute break We may bend that a little bit if there's too much of a crush getting into and out of the restrooms

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But we will try to start as quickly as possible After the break, we will then have 20 minutes of cross -examination followed by five minutes of closing statements and then we will take questions from the audience and Since years ago.

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I literally had to pry a microphone out of someone's hand to try to get them to stop making a monologue

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We figured out a long time ago. It's better to have you submit your questions in the moderator then go back and forth if you have

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Paper and something to write with I will take those during the break if you prefer to text me you can text me at And I will announce that again at the break but We will have roughly 20 minutes of questions that the person please specify to whom you are asking the question

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It'll be put to that side They will have two minutes and then the other side will have 30 seconds to give a response and then we will move on When we are finished with the questions

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Then we will wrap up for the evening There are restrooms in the back if you didn't see them when you came in the ladies

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Is on this side men's is on this side We will be taking a break in just a little over an hour

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But we will go ahead and get started and so taking the affirmative to the question is

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God necessary for ethics Will be dr. James White and Reverend Jeff Durbin We will

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I will be timing both sides. But since there's going to be a switching at the lectern

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I will be pausing the timing during the switch so that neither side loses time in that transfer and so we will go ahead and open up With the affirmative is

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God necessary for ethics Well, good evening.

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I wish to invite you all to time travel with me this evening. You're going back to April 1945 we're traveling to a small town near Weimar in Germany Captain Frederick Hoffer is leading advanced patrol from the 6th armored division a portion of the

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American forces Driving into Germany. He is the first to come across the Buchenwald concentration camp

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Located on a hill not far away from the quaint German town of Weimar Together we stand before the barbed wire fence to look upon 20 ,000 emaciated filthy prisoners the survivors of the horror of Buchenwald The world united to destroy the evil the

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Nazi regime and only barely managed to defeat it But tonight I have to ask us all here.

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What if the Germans had prevailed? What if they had managed to get the atomic bomb and use it on one of their v2 rockets against say

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London? Clearly world history would be completely different. But here is the question for us tonight

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Would the horror of Buchenwald be any less wrong if the world never knew of its existence?

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Because everyone died and the people who perpetrated those horrors were victorious We answer that question unambiguously and clearly tonight ethics and morality

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Amongst mankind exist and can be known because men are made by God in his image

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Every guard at Buchenwald was an image bearer of God as was every victim The guards and the perpetrators knew that what they were doing was evil from the start

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They could not escape their createdness nor the witness of the law of God written upon their consciences

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It did not matter that they were doing the bidding of the current government in charge in Germany It did not matter their leaders had been proclaiming the

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Jews and others to be subhuman What they were doing was objectively a moral evil and the context could not possibly change that reality

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We live in a time where the numbers killed by the Nazis are dwarfed

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By the massacre of innocent pre -born children in plain -looking buildings safely tucked into our neighborhoods all across our nation

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At the same time our cultural insanity has overwhelmed us Where we now allow eight -year -olds to choose their gender and then proceed to mutilate their bodies and condemn them to a lifetime of disease and dysfunction

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We cannot even attempt to answer the question What is a woman or what is a marriage without being called a bigot or a hater?

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Serious consideration of morality and ethics has been replaced by Emotionalism and a permanently established state of childhood all across the academic landscape

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Challenge anyone's feelings and they immediately run for a safe space Jeff Durbin and I stand here this evening to say unequivocally

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Buchenwald was a moral nightmare a clear violation. The standards God has built into his own creation

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Likewise the slaughter of innocent pre -born children the mutilation of born children and the profaning of the covenant of marriage are ethical disasters and great moral evils

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But to many who have been raised in public schools over the past decades the immediate objection comes to mind

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Who are you to decide these things? What if you offend someone with your views?

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What if someone claims to be hurt by your position? Doesn't that make you evil? Aren't morality and ethics just human constructs that recent history has proven to be altered and changed by polls and elections

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To these objections we respond with clarity morality and ethics require a standard from outside The human realm and that standard has been provided to us and preserved for us in the

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Christian scriptures We do not flinch for a second that the trained response of the public schooled mind to such a claim

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It has become dogma in our day that all religious claims are mythical in nature and are subordinate to science

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It is even more outrageous We know to not only say God is required as the source of morality and ethics

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But the specific triune God of the Christian faith how exclusive But of course we do not even stop there

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No as audacious as it is in the early 21st century in the United States We stand here this evening to proclaim to all who will hear

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There is an empty tomb in Jerusalem and because it once housed a beaten and broken corpse

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But only briefly and then gave up that corpse the unstoppable power of new life resurrection life

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We now live in the light of that empty tomb the one who arose is seated at the right hand of the

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Father on high where he has been exalted as king of kings and Lord of lords and this historical event

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Supernatural as it is has changed forever this world and everything in it

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It should be obvious to all of us that if indeed that tomb is empty as it is And if indeed that one who predicted his own death burial and resurrection not only accomplished these acts

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But as ascended on high we need to know how we must live in light of this history forming reality

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Do we just keep on keeping on doing as we please or must we seek to know what this divine judge demands?

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Of us it is the Christian message that we can indeed know his standards in his law and hence

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Every moral and ethical system must be brought into line with that law long ago one of Jesus's disciples

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Paul stood before the Greek philosophers at the Areopagus and uttered these amazing words quote

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Therefore God having overlooked the times of ignorance is now commanding all men everywhere to repent

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Because he has fixed a day in which he will surely judge the inhabited world

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Inrighteousness by a man he has appointed having furnished proof to all by raising him from the dead

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We must feel the weight of this announcement even this evening the resurrection of Christ from the dead is provided to all men, including all of us here as Evidence of the fact that there is a day fixed when

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God will judge the entire Inhabited world all who have ever lived or are living or will live

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He will do so justly in righteousness and he will do so by the one who lived a perfect life gave that life on Calvary's tree and rose again the third day if Judgment is so central to God's purposes as the scriptures reveal over and over again then the standard by which that judgment will be made must be clearly known and It is clearly known

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We need it

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No Thank you all so much for being here and sacrificing your time and attention to this vitally important subject

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I want to personally ask you all to pay very close attention this evening Not only to what is coming out of our mouths that is the claims that we're making

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And things that are coming out of us But what we are standing on or carrying into the debate this debate this evening isn't summarized in the piecemeal arguments or attempts at particular summer

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Evidences or claims made by either side this debate is a collision of total life and world views

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That is to say both sides are carrying bags into this discussion These bags are the underlying assumptions or presuppositions that come from our world views.

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They are either bags filled with cash That we can justifiably spend to purchase the emotions that we draw on When decrying evil or calling anything evil or on our appeals to logical consistency

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Demands or the necessary rules to have Integrity and not lie to you in this debate or the appeals made to human value and dignity

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Just consider what's happening in front of us all right now our opponents I think are very brave to enter into a public debate attempting to provide a foundation for ethics from their worldview

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Here we have two men who are variously identified as devout atheists

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Humanists who have claimed that there is absolutely nothing Supernatural that is nothing outside of the natural physical or material universe who believe that humans exist on a continuum of purposeless

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Meaningless time and chance acting on matter human beings according to their most basic ontology or metaphysics

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Are the descendants of bacteria and fish? alongside other was a random results of evolutionary processes

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We are bags of purposeless stardust to quote Carl Sagan one of their patron saints

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Cosmic broccoli as well another atheist Dan Barker is claimed Meatbone protoplasm and a cosmos that doesn't care about us

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They're brave bringing those bags in here trying to justify and argue that their worldview can provide a cogent philosophical

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Justification or warrant for their claims they don't have the cash to spend in those bags

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The cash necessary to make meaningful appeals to your emotions to appeal to human value and dignity

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To appeal to universal immaterial unchanging and necessary laws of logic or absolute and transcendent ethical laws

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Absolute standards of morality or ethics do not comport with their view of the world in humans

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Their worldview is bankrupt. They don't have the money to spend with you all tonight However, they will make claims they'll assume human value and dignity the demand for honesty in this debate the principle of induction or the

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Uniformity in nature to examine evidence and trust the basic reliability of sense perception

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And the demand the need for consistency and holding to the law of non -contradiction However in doing so what they'll be doing is sneaking their hands into our bags

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To borrow capital from the Christian worldview that they don't have I want to encourage you to watch their hands this evening

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Because stealing is wrong from the Christian worldview Watch for the unjustified claims the appeals to emotions that don't belong to the descendants of bacteria the claims that contradict their most basic worldview

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Assumptions watch them as they act like there are things that humans ought to do and ought not to do

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Our esteemed opponents have agreed to show up to a fight without the worldview credentials to do so Respectfully, you don't need

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Christian ministers to tell you that dr Wilprovine the now deceased and renowned professor of biological sciences at Cornell University A man who shared their worldview.

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He held the same bags as them once said quotes Let me summarize my views and what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear and I must say that these are basically

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Darwin's views there are no gods no purposeful forces of any kind no life after death when

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I die I am absolutely certain that I'm going to be completely dead. That's just all that's going to be the end of me

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There is no ultimate foundation for ethics. No ultimate meaning in life and no free will for humans either

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Unquote dr. Provine was correct He was being honest about what his atheistic presuppositions lead to although as an atheist

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He didn't have to be according to Provine our atheists and humanist opponents don't have

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Justifiable right to appeal to ethics in any meaningful or ultimate way They have no warrant to appeal to any ultimate meaning in life

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Nor do they given that they are simply cosmic accidents whose brains are just doing what their biochemical responses do under these conditions

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Have any philosophically coherent right to think that they are thinking in any meaningful way

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They're just dancing out their DNA as Dawkins has said on the one side tonight cosmic broccoli

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On the other side Image bearers of God of the true and living God the only eternal

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God human beings with value dignity and purpose Who reflect the glory and power of the triune

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God of Holy Scripture make no mistake? We are not neutral and neither are our opponents We're not arguing for a general form of theism to justify morality or ethical appeals as a matter of fact

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We would happily join our opponents in refuting those other claims of general theism

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We freely confess to carrying bags in here tonight as well So what's in our bags our bags are filled with real value and philosophical currency.

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We have treasure to offer you We are claiming that the Christian God revealed in Holy Scripture is a necessary foundation for justified true belief

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Regarding all ethical claims without the Christian God you can't prove or justify anything

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Reject his revelation in history and you become a fool Intellectually and morally if you want certainty in the realm of ethics you need

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Jesus friends Without him salvation isn't possible and without him neither is knowledge

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The claim of Scripture is that in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge God and his character are the necessary transcendent reference point for meaningful claims or appeals to ethics

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God is the unchanging eternal sovereign God he has revealed himself clearly and without confusion through the natural order through his prophets and apostles in history and supremely in the

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Incarnation when the second person of the Trinity Condescended took on flesh walked among us lived the perfect righteous and truly ethical life

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That we have failed died for sinners and conquered death as a matter of historic record The God of the

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Bible is in percipient the percipient his revelation is the reference point He does not appeal to a standard outside of himself.

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His law is a reflection of his own eternal and unchanging character Righteousness and justice are measured and revealed by him

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Abandon that at your own philosophical peril Abandon him and lose any meaningful or coherent appeals to ethical responsibilities or anything transcendent all appeals to ethics

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Apart from God as the reference point are meaningless and incoherent. Let's take a look at an example

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Just this week a wicked and murderous woman who lived pretending to be a man

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Named Audrey Hale went armed to a Christian school and murdered six innocent human beings including three small children

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We all feel the weight the great degree from the weight of that including our opponents atheists and Christians alike

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The question is this which side gets to grieve and complain in a justified and meaningful way

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According to the Christian worldview what happened in Nashville was murder. It was the unjustified taking of human life

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God explicitly commands against this you shall not murder Exodus 2013. The law of God is transcendent

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God is love scripture commands love does no harm to its neighbor those innocent children and those adults

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Were made in the Imago Dei they had purpose meaning value and dignity they were not cosmic accidents furthermore the police officers who killed the murderous and wicked woman

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Were acting justly and protecting the innocent and preserving human life by taking the life of that truly evil woman

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What do we get when we look at Nashville through the lens of the devout atheist? What happened in Nashville was merely the scattering of protoplasm?

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One random result of evolutionary processes walk into a building and caused other cosmic accidents to stop breathing

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So what? There's nothing above the Nashville shooter, but sky clouds and vast emptiness

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No justice is ahead of Audrey and there is no absolute standard of justice to hold her to you'll forgive me everyone for being

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So callous in this description, but we have to be honest about what priests up eight atheist presuppositions

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Give us when human beings are absolutized and put at the center and what happened in Nashville was absolutely

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Wasn't absolutely evil. No ultimate ethical law was violated in Nashville atheist

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Richard Dawkins explains quotes the universe that we observe has

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Precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom no design

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No purpose No evil No good

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Nothing, but pitiless indifference River out of Eden unquote the atheists and humanists will try to go to get around this glaring deficiency in their complaints about Nashville They'll attempt to have you divert your eyes

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From the empty bags they're carrying they'll claim what happened in Nashville caused pain to which we should say

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So what? Some random results of evolutionary processes like to inflict pain they enjoy it

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It makes them happy and you aren't in charge of them They'll try to avoid the glaring philosophical bankruptcy in their worldview their ethical worldview by claiming

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We've decided as a society that we shouldn't cause harm to which we remind them of societies run by Stalin Hitler Mao and Paul Potts They like to inflict harm and you aren't in charge of them furthermore if our esteemed unbelieving opponents believe that ethical obligations are based upon societal convention or the agreement of the masses that We must remind them graciously at the time when in this nation society believed it was ethical to kidnap and enslave our black brothers and sisters a

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Sin and a crime by the way that God commanded capital punishment for I want us all to remember that what happens in a godless universe

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Just happens It just is when we absolutize human beings in their postulated godless world

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What one human being does to another is ultimately morally irrelevant an illusion Michael Ruse was right in his essay called evolution and ethics and new scientists.

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He said In an important sense ethics as we understand it is an illusion frobbed off on by our genes to get us to cooperate

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Ethical codes work because they drive us to go against our selfish day -to -day impulses in favor of long -term group survival and harmony furthermore the way our biology

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Forces our ends is by making us think that there is an objective higher code to which we are all subject

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Ethics is a shared illusion of the human race So my friends watch

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We humbly ask you to watch Watches our friends Write checks with their work their mouths that their worldviews can't cash

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I think you're being here the question before us this evening is

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God necessary for ethics We will now have a 20 -minute opening statement from the negative side

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I'm scared to speak here because according to Pastor Durbin. I'm a dangerous man, you know

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So hopefully you'll find that that's not true In fact,

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I'm honored and humbled To be here in the same podium with director.

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Dr. James White and our pastor Jeff Durbin and I thank my old friend pastor

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Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna and of course ratio

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Christie for doing this event here It's a great thing to do this debate and dialogue

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That's how we expand our ideas and views get to understand each other and that's very important and that's exactly what you're doing so just one note of caution, which is

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Jeff Durbin we came here to fight, you know, we didn't come here to fight

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We came here to exchange ideas to learn from each other, you know, because I believe that that's exactly how we enrich ourselves

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So we're not here to fight. We're here to exchange ideas Just want to let you know that now time is very short for an opening statement

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So many of the ideas that I'm going to give you are they are in a very Constrained and summary format.

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I cannot explain them too much because there's so many internal intricacies and all that Hopefully down the road in the subsequent

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Time that we have we'll get a chance to explain some of them a bit more But I would like to give you an overview even though in a summary format to get to show you where we are coming from Okay, hopefully that will be helpful the question of this debate is is

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God necessary for ethics ethics the answer to that is a resounding no and Let me explain why firstly

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When we Make God the basis of ethics and in this case we have found out it's already a

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Christian God That is what they're talking about the question of course first is

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There are at least 50 major religious sects at least 100 or so not so major religious sects and maybe 200 or 300 minor sects and Small religious forces movements all that they all have their

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God They all have their gods Okay, so the question is then which

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God are you going to go for? We did not find anything here to justify their idea of God other than they are coming up with their own

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God The question naturally is of all these 300 or more so God Maybe there would be more gods and goddesses

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Which one should we go for which one should we talk now if we say no it has to be our

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God Our God is moral. We have to justify that with reason instead if we try to Do it by force that no it has to be our

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God My way or highway, then that is the end of morality That's where we breed violence intolerance and that's not morality

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So the moment we try to show that there is one particular God as they are saying That is to be preferred of all these other 300 gods or so We need to find out why we did not find any such reason here because there are so many gods

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We know we don't we don't know What they stand for okay? Then that's one big big problem

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Yes It shows that we have to have something else besides to start with God and that's reason rational discourse mutual understanding

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Okay, the next question. I would like to ask is does Does such a

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God exist whatever God we choose and that's a very important question because now in this in this case

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We have already chosen a Christian God. We know that it cannot be rationally proved

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Meaningfully proved that a Christian God exists throughout the tradition the

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Christian theologians I can name all of them and their Books and their ideas no time for that They have tried to give arguments to show that such gods exist because they don't want to show that their faith is a blind faith

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It's a dogma. So they wanted to give reason to be Respectable to be acceptable all those reasons fail there are five

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Main reasons for God's existence. They all have fatal flaws. They don't prove that God exists.

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So therefore that's Yet another problem. So we have to bring in something other than God Now then of course comes the veracity of scriptures.

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We have we have seen that they have quoted from the Bible quite a lot. Okay How can we be so sure that if God if the

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Bible if the scripture contains God's words? Well, how do you know that the

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Bible for example was collected put together nearly three 2 ,000 years ago

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During a very primitive time by primitive folks and Jesus in fact when he died after that it was not for at least 40 years the

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Synoptic Gospels were put together during those 40 years. Do you know how many ideas floated around?

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How do you know for sure those primitive folks kept Jesus's ideas exactly the way he

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Spelled out and they're in the Bible. We don't know that. So therefore this sort of blind faith in the scripture

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That's not a very good idea either. So you have to bring in something else rather than blind faith and dogma.

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Okay, so What are some of the fundamental ethical presuppositions?

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The ones I'm going to put here Everybody should agree regardless of what what religion or outside of any religion they stand

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They happen to be these fundamental ethical presuppositions happen to be autonomy of the

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Individuals what you call agency individual cannot be a robot to be a moral agent.

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That person has to have autonomy Okay, everybody should agree with that Then Reciprocity, which we often call the golden rule.

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It's there in all religions In fact, it has been there in human history in all religions way before Christianity came into being in Buddhism and all other religions since some form or other the golden rules the idea of reciprocity

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Respecting the other person as you would like to be respected yourself. Okay, and then the question of responsibility

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Cannot think of morality without responsibility. So these are the fundamental presuppositions of morality and These concepts are universal in the sense that in some form or other

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Different religions different cultures different folks God believers or not. They all agree to some version of that It's there all along.

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This is an empirical observation, you know, we don't have to take my word for it But just because they're universal they're not vacuous often universal statements are empty they're vacuous they're not vacuous

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They are contextual but often which are contextual. They could be could be

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Could be relativistic and morality cannot be relativistic. They're contextual at the same time.

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They're universal They're not vacuous It's a nice balance and tension in that and that's the beauty of these moral concepts that they are universally applicable

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In ways that people find suitable to them, but there are some basic core there.

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Okay now these Concepts are related to the concepts of right and wrong and these are central moral concepts and these are secular concepts right or wrong whereas If we bring in the religious idea of morality that that morality is based on God Then we get into this idea of sin and righteousness these are

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These are religious concepts and they're meaningful only to a bunch of believers not

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Otherwise not not to the outsiders but morality cannot be segmented into these different groups and because then it gets hopelessly relativistic and So I'll get to that point just in a minute

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So the whole idea is that ethics is essentially a human enterprise Based on these concepts that I told you about and the difficulty of bringing in God that I mentioned a bit earlier

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It's essentially human enterprise. In fact, if I can go to one line from Jared's statement

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He's going to come up with and after I finish he says the root of ethics is caring and cooperation and caring and Cooperation are a feature of life.

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He's so right, you know Morality is from human to human, you know, we don't need to go up there and come down by that Extra outside route, you know in a way that is not needed

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It's directly from one human to the other and human groups to other human groups and amongst themselves That's where morality is right here.

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Not that way. That is cumbersome Okay, and of course based on what up there we don't know

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I told you about the problems if we try to go from there now so When it comes to sin and righteousness these concepts the religious concepts

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They're only meaningful to believers of that religion but they generate guilt and shame and fear now, these are not moral concepts and they are very

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Healthy unhealthy quite no question, but they are very useful in putting people into place, you know

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They are good for controlling and they are good for manipulation these ideas and these are not moral way to do it

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Okay, so the point is that to believe in a God without any reason it's a dogma and a dogma

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Which is not based on reason and open -mindedness human experience meaning a meaningful dogma that dogma

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Is top -down not bottom -up like morality should be based on human experience human life

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And when that happens that that dogma is not good to base ethics on Okay, ethics cannot be based on dogma.

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So this idea of my way or highway, you know that generates tension conflict and violence and history is late with how

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Christianity has led to violence all around In fact when it comes to violence

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Christianity stands number one in the whole world history followed a distant distant follow

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Second is of course Islam Anyway, I will get later on into some of the other traditions to show that there are really even religious traditions

37:28

Which are profoundly moral without a belief in God. Anyway, that will come later in our

37:34

Segment later. Okay, so I would like to just simply put myself down here now with this idea that Dogma should not be the basis of ethics.

37:49

So we need to have reason now. The thing is that God is a dogma the way it's put unless we bring in reason, but the point is this the dogma can be

38:02

Reasonable it is the dogma is never rational keep that in mind But it can be reasonable if it's put to good use if we can use it

38:10

Good ways to make bring people close to morality to make them more compassionate Kind caring sharing and all those, you know to that extent the dogma can be reasonable meaning it's helpful but it can never be rational so God could be

38:26

Helpful when it comes to morality, but it can never be the basis of morality. Please keep that in mind

38:31

There's a big distinction between the two something that's helpful is always welcome But let's not make it a dogma and make morality based on that.

38:41

Okay quite a few ideas Some of them will be gone back later. I'd like to leave it at that right now

38:58

Thank You pastor Durbin for spending your time arguing a version of our side Makes it

39:06

Efficient I don't know whether it's appropriate or inappropriate As the closing member of the opening statements to observe that this is an impossible debate

39:16

You should feel impressed that we are trying to pull it off. Are you not entertained?

39:24

Name the movie You can believe that God is necessary for ethics. You can presuppose that God is necessary for ethics

39:33

We may have seen some of that tonight But I believe it is functionally impossible to debate that God is necessary for ethics yes, we can reduce our definition of God so much that it becomes tautological and God becomes necessary for ethics.

39:49

Okay, if God is whatever brought us into existence and Existence is necessary for existence then yes in some minimal way

39:59

God is necessary for ethics God is demonstrably real you were not expecting that were you in that God is an idea that people most people

40:12

Actually believe in making God an intersubjective reality Intersubjective should be the $20 word that you walk away with You could also assert that humans are functionally

40:22

God a position that I support but these minimal definitions of God cancel themselves out if Ethics are a human phenomenon or more precisely an extrapolation of social behavior of living creatures

40:34

Then God is not necessary for ethics The question of whether God is necessary for existence would be an interesting debate the question of which conception of God is most ethical would be another interesting debate the question of whether Belief in God is helpful for morality would be yet another interesting debate.

40:56

That's a debate I would probably be on the affirmative for but that's not the debate we are having in this moment

41:02

I'm using morality to describe the system of belief relating to what is right and wrong and Ethics as the analysis of that system

41:12

Either to establish or study it ethics is the art and science of studying morality

41:20

We could also have robust debates about the ways that the idea of God and belief in God is

41:25

Problematic for ethics, which perhaps we'll get into a bit later It is worth mentioning that God could exist and still not be necessary for ethics

41:36

Thousands of years ago Plato asked which is bigger God or good is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious

41:43

Or is it pious because it is loved by the gods that's known as Euthyphro's dilemma Even if you fervently believe in God, even if God does exist

41:52

God is not Necessary for ethics Only you need to exist for ethics to exist

42:03

We in this moment are enough we being here having this debate means that God is not necessary for ethics

42:10

Here's how it works You hurt them now say you're sorry

42:16

Hopefully all of us have had an experience like this Perhaps the person we hurt was a brother or sister or friend

42:22

But all of us have had the experience of being told that we hurt someone else Being told that our actions matter that our actions impact others

42:30

Most of us have stories of childish cruelty that we need to grow out of anyone else burn ants with a magnifying glass

42:37

I'm sorry about that Other actions are wrong because they weaken our character and are out of alignment with our goals like cheating

42:46

Being ethical means being a good member of society Being a good member of the groups We are a part of being a good person means that we act in alignment with the best interest of the well -being of others

42:56

What it means to be a good person is a conversation we all have

43:03

It is a conversation we inherit it is a conversation we have throughout our lives If you want to confirm the ethics are innate just cut cake at a six -year -olds birthday party

43:14

God is not necessary for ethics because ethics are a part of life Ethics emerge from us sharing life together

43:22

It is the task of a lifetime to understand that other people matter just as much as we do

43:28

Far too many of us never get to that point Even though even toddlers can begin to understand that different people have different preferences

43:39

This is there was a great experiment involving broccoli and goldfish The toddlers could not understand why adults want broccoli

43:46

Ethics can be distilled to a single equation Every action should be defensible to the ideal version of all those impacted by that action

43:56

Every action should be defensible to the ideal version of all of those impacted by that action

44:04

We should avoid hurting others because they matter the way we matter if we have to hurt them We should be able to explain and defend why we are hurting them like there's a wasp on their head or they're paying us to Hurt them because we're their personal trainer

44:17

Ethics exist because you exist if you don't exist, please do come talk to me after Humans exist we exist.

44:25

We are talking about ethics again. Ethics are a cultural conversation We inherit social norms.

44:32

We grow up with family traditions some healthier than others We navigate preferences and needs of our loved ones all of these decisions and requests and conversations involve ethics in The entertaining book how to be perfect Michael Schur the author of the excellent show the good place

44:50

Reviews major ethical theories. I'm a fan of Aristotle's virtue ethics

44:55

Which describes a balance of ideals that we should all strive for I believe that all of our traits can be expressed in a healthy virtuous way

45:04

Utilitarianism seeks the greatest good for the greatest number of people Which I feel is best balanced by focusing on well -being rather than pleasure

45:14

Deontology seems like a dodge to me a fancy way of saying do the right thing without necessarily explaining how to define right

45:22

But functionally the right thing is yet another intersubjective reality established through intergenerational cultural conversation

45:31

Lots of very smart people have explored interpersonal ethics, which I am describing in my arguments

45:38

Emmanuel Levinas emphasized our basic duty to the other Similarly TM Scanlon's book.

45:43

What do we owe to each other emphasizes interpersonal morality? Which requires that we be able to justify our conduct to others

45:50

John Rawls Val of ignorance uses our self -interest To pivot towards what others want and need

45:58

Carol Gilligan's ethics of care also focuses on interpersonal relationships and our duty to care for others

46:05

Seems obvious when we talk about it But applying these principles in our lives requires mastery and more self -awareness than most people prefer

46:16

When I was a believing Latter -day Saint at UNC Chapel Hill I expressed my faith bore my testimony to my then

46:24

PhD advisor bar Ehrman thusly One of two things is true either

46:29

God exists and God communicates to us through our physiology psychology and sociology in other words our brains bodies and groups or God exists and communicates to us and we are

46:44

Created evolved in such a way that we believe in God Whether or not you believe we are created or evolved our bodies and brains are stuck.

46:57

I'm sorry. I Will wrap up as a chaplain. I affirm faith and spirituality and I work with people in the most difficult moments of their lives

47:06

I support people as they die Support people from any religious background or none at all

47:12

I am able to do this because I connect at the level of human needs and experience Questions of meaning and the reality of connection and support are also human

47:22

God is not necessary for grief or support or resolution We humans supporting each other does the work traditionally attributed to gods and angels

47:30

God is not here in this auditorium as best as we can tell Many here may believe that God has an influence in this auditorium

47:39

But I hope that we can all agree that we are more certain that we are here Than that we are certain that God is here the presence of God is up for debate literally

47:48

But again, we can all be certain that we are here. We are here talking about ethics

47:53

Therefore God is not necessary for ethics. Thank you. Some of you have begun texting me questions

48:01

It will make it a lot easier if you specify to whom which individual or to which side the

48:08

Affirmative or the negative on the question that you wish it asked. Otherwise, I'm just gonna guess wildly But we will now have a 10 -minute rebuttal from the affirmative and rebutting the negative

48:32

We just heard it said that only you need to exist to do ethics. So when the

48:38

North Korean prison guard comes up to you and blows your head off with an ak -47 do your ethics vanish and Are his ethics therefore established as proper ethics because he continues to exist

48:55

But only for a certain period of time You see once you reduce this subject to well, we're just gonna this is just us talking amongst ourselves

49:05

You have to deal with the reality that right now in North Korea in China Unspeakably evil things are taking place and they're taking place with the government saying this is the proper ethical and moral thing to do and in our own country

49:25

Right now in this state in small little buildings in our neighborhoods innocent little children are being torn apart in their mother's wombs and this

49:37

Society right now just in this past week has demonstrated that when it is said that we inherit social norms

49:46

Really? I can guarantee you one thing the way that this nation has responded to what happened in Nashville is

49:53

Not how this nation would have responded to the same events when I was young person say in 1975

50:01

Not even close. So what has changed? We need to be thinking about this because to be honest with you our society is coming apart at the seams and Once you say well ethics requires autonomy that means

50:19

We can come up with 350 million different systems of ethics because we as autonomous

50:25

Individuals get to just look at the universe and come up with our own way of thinking You can't keep a society together like that.

50:32

And that's not how this great nation was ever built. I can assure you of that So what's the difference here?

50:39

Well, you know you have to you know, if you're gonna say God's required Then you have to figure out which God let me try this one more time.

50:45

Listen carefully. There is an empty tomb in Jerusalem You have to explain that Islam has no empty tomb

50:55

Mohammed's to everybody knows where Mohammed's tomb is There is an empty tomb in Jerusalem and you have to explain how the man who came out of that tomb

51:03

Predicted is only his own death burial resurrection when you predict your own death burial resurrection and then you rise from the dead

51:12

You get to tell the rest of us what to do Because you are our maker

51:20

We need a user's manual right now It's like everybody in our society has decided you know what

51:28

I'm just gonna I'm gonna pick up my iPhone And I don't care how they designed it to be used.

51:34

I'm just gonna use it any way I want to Well, it's not gonna function very well that way because there are

51:42

Instructions and without instructions. We're simply left with well, you know

51:49

Utilitarianism we just we just want to do the the best thing for the most people Except Stalin didn't do that.

51:55

And by the way, if you say Christianity has been has brought about the most violence Stalin made that Blew that that's that standard away a long long time ago

52:05

It's atheism that has brought the most violence to the world by no question on that level

52:11

Why because atheism says there is no God to tell us what is right and wrong

52:19

What is just and what is unjust? We need a standard from outside of ourselves

52:25

Because we are creatures We are made in the image of God the only reason that there is any kind of consistency in the moral and ethical systems around the globe is because we are made in the image of God Read Romans chapter 1 if you've never read

52:40

Romans chapter 1 I invite you tonight Sit down read it and sit back and go how did that ancient man know so much about us today?

52:52

He knew it because he was writing inspired scripture and has given us that standard from outside of ourselves

52:59

Well, I greatly respect the men the image bearers of God to my right and I was saddened to hear.

53:15

Dr Chatterjee say that he didn't come to fight. That's unfortunate. I did And that's because truth matters and it's worth fighting for these are not just philosophical games that we're playing tonight

53:27

Mr. Anderson said that so he talked about being at the bedside of people and grieving over people dying.

53:33

He's borrowing again I hope you caught it He believes that his ancestors were bacteria

53:39

He believes he lives on a continuum of purposeless time and chance acting on matter

53:44

People don't shed tears when rocks tumble off a cliff and shatter

53:50

So he's borrowing Dr. Chatterjee asked a question of which God we answered that he says we have to justify that not according to his devout atheism

53:59

We did we said that it was the Christian God the Triune God of Holy Scriptures that apart from him You cannot prove anything reject his revelation.

54:07

You become a fool Intellectually morally you have no justification for universal

54:13

Unchanging immaterial laws of logic and consistency are the descendants of bacteria

54:18

Obligated to hold to these immaterial laws are the universal Have you ever smelled the law of logic felt one weighed one?

54:26

Tasted one if we believe that nothing is there's no supernatural as mr. Anderson believes. There's nothing supernatural

54:32

And how do you get immaterial? Unchanging invariant laws with that worldview?

54:38

No, not with their worldview Do we need to justify anything or be consistent with the

54:43

Christian worldview you do because you have a God Whose mind is the standard who cannot lie that is to say he cannot engage in logical contradiction

54:52

So when we engage in the question of ethics and we are having this conversation Expecting consistency.

54:59

We have to have a standard underneath us not just social convention and cooperation

55:05

This debate by the way isn't about the existence of God. It's about whether the

55:10

Christian God is necessary for ethics. Dr Chatterjee when he started with that in his opening challenging which

55:16

God and we need to prove God's existence He isn't in the debate yet. Unfortunately, we'd happily debate that we already have here if they like to do it

55:24

We will he announced some standards. We have a foundation for ethics. We have autonomy

55:30

We have reciprocity. He said the golden rule. I told you they were going to steal from us tonight

55:39

Responsibility my question is by what standard it is it is always appropriate in a situation like this when you are talking to Devout atheists and humanists who put the descendants of bacteria at the center to ask the question by what?

55:55

Standard is it dr. Chatterjee's mind. Is it his likes and passions and dislikes?

56:01

Is it the circle and community that he engages with? Where do we draw the circle? We draw it over Nazi Germany.

56:07

Are they the circle we draw it around or we draw it larger over Stalin's Russia? Where do we draw the circles and who's in charge there who gets to set the standard?

56:17

Especially considering we're just the descendants of fish in a cosmically in different universe

56:23

Never forget what bags they brought into the debates now. They just simply say it's autonomy reciprocity

56:30

Responsibility listen, you can't just announce something in a debate like this

56:36

Just announcing it doesn't justify it. We need a justification Not just announcing it

56:43

It was said that we need caring and cooperation as the foundation of ethics Caring and cooperation friends for the descendants of bacteria

56:53

Are we obligated to be caring and cooperative towards one another says who dr.

56:58

Chatterjee? Mr. Anderson? Dr. Chatterjee says guilt and shame are unhealthy Guilt and shame are unhealthy

57:05

That claim was made in a discussion about ethics in public debate guilt and shame are unhealthy

57:12

I say try saying that To the face of the rapist or the molester or the murderer in a court of law

57:19

Tell him the guilt and shame are unhealthy. No, it's very healthy guilt and shame are very healthy when we are morally

57:28

Responsible image bearers of God. It's absolutely necessary He said and I'll just go on the back of pastor

57:35

James. You stole my thunder here Christianity stands as number one in violence in history friends That's laughable if we just take some of the atheist regimes of the last hundred years

57:45

Who do you want to look at Stalin Mao Paul Potts? and if you want to ask the question of comparative body count they win by the ton and So the question though behind that is this why?

57:57

Shouldn't we be violent. Do you see how he's pulling on emotions with his worldview that he doesn't have a right to He says the

58:05

Christian Church has been violent in history. My question is what's wrong with violence? Mr. Anderson announces the utilitarian standard

58:12

He says we need to have focus on the well -being of others and the pleasure of others again It doesn't do any good to announce the utilitarian standard just to simply claim it you can say that human beings like well -being

58:23

Okay, that's nice. They like pleasure great. That's if that is the case

58:30

Utilitarianism they like well -being they like pleasure just because that is the case that humans like that Doesn't mean it ought to be the case that we pursue it.

58:38

Do you know who disagreed at times Hitler? Do you know who disagreed the Green River killer?

58:44

Do you know who disagreed all the serial killers of the last 20 years how Ted Bundy feel about that brothers and sisters friends?

58:53

Pay close attention to their bag. We'll now have a 10 -minute rebuttal from the negative towards the affirmative.

59:13

I Never said that Christian religion is the most violent most violent and destructive force in human history

59:22

I never said that I said Christian religion of all religions is number one in Historical violence there's a big difference between these two statements and I said that Islam also a religion based on God It comes a distant second.

59:38

Anyway, so I hope I'll be quoted right now what

59:43

I hear from the other side from our very Respected and honorable speakers is nothing but arguing in a circle, you know

59:54

They're talking about how great the scripture is by citing scriptures They're talking about how great God is by simply affirming that God exists, you know

01:00:02

We have to go a bit beyond that and what also they're doing They are putting the non -believers atheist and humanist and liberals and others know in the

01:00:15

Group of all the worst form of human life that we know in history Like Stalin Mao and Hitler and all that It doesn't have to be that way at all.

01:00:26

That is to go beside the point, you know surely all those individuals know moral

01:00:35

Humanist who claims morality would go for that and try to defend them

01:00:41

So I think that was a non -starter and that's beside the point Humans are purposeless.

01:00:48

We have been told they evolved out of worms and bacteria Of course, we should believe in science and a firm believer of evolution

01:00:57

That doesn't make us the humans without any aim and purpose. We all are autonomous human beings we are

01:01:05

Depending on the education regard depending on our influences. We have definite purpose in life

01:01:11

The question is in what direction that purpose is directed to, you know, so those are the important questions

01:01:17

It's not that humans are simply floating creatures, you know out Evolved out of fish and therefore they are just simply floating nowhere to go.

01:01:26

It's not that way at all Look at I mean, we're all human beings. We're not quite like that at all. We have definite purpose okay, and This idea

01:01:38

Again and again, we have brought in this idea of whether we are pro -life or pro -choice, you know Why can't you be both pro -life which

01:01:46

I am and pro -choice at the same time? Am I pro -birth? I dare not say that that's the choice of the woman.

01:01:54

That's her decision You know that's to be done decided between her and her doctors and others But it doesn't hurt to be pro -choice and pro -life.

01:02:02

We all have to be pro -life. No question Resurrection, you know, we have been told about resurrection and what that tells us again

01:02:10

It's a question of faith, you know We have to have some more justification some historical account and some reason to talk about These sort of scriptural proclamations.

01:02:23

Otherwise, we are simply going in a circle In fact, I would say if I can say that Jesus must be then turning his grave right now to hear all these things

01:02:31

Anyway, so I would like to just make one or two comments, which is that This way to divide and is for anybody or any people those who don't believe in their idea of religion and their idea of God as Sort of something bad and evil about them.

01:02:49

Ah, that is the division religion God believing religions like theirs

01:02:54

Routinely make the division between the sacred and the profane if we're on their side everything is sacred and nice But otherwise if we question them and on the other side, then everything is profane.

01:03:05

It's not that simple. It's not that simplistic It's not that way at all. In fact that simply creates more divisions, which they would not like to Promote and that's exactly what they're doing.

01:03:16

You know, so that's not how to go and I Would say if we look at some of the world's great religions which are not

01:03:24

Christian religions But in South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Asia, we find that there is a very inclusive idea not the divisive idea of sacred and profane but the idea inclusive idea of the secular as sacred which brings things together and there we find tolerance and diversity and Understanding and appreciation of each other and of course empathy and compassion for example

01:03:52

Buddhism Much earlier than Christianity is a prime example of a very high order moral system

01:04:00

Based not on God but on rational moral psychology, you know something like the one that we have not found since then and We can talk about those things based on human experience and reason

01:04:14

That's the beauty about Buddhism and it's a very high order of ethics most Compassionate and most nonviolent of all religions except the one that's

01:04:23

Jainism. That's even more So I don't have the time to get into all the details of these religions.

01:04:29

Okay, then when it comes to Also monism that takes you beyond God if that's possible

01:04:34

But that's exactly how many of those traditions are because God is a human creation In fact, we have been talking about our

01:04:41

God the father and our divine judge You know, that is anthropomorphic. That's a very primitive idea

01:04:47

But these ideas we find in other religions, you know, they take you beyond God which you call monism

01:04:52

You know, but I don't have the time to explain that concept, you know And if I try to maybe that will not go well with them.

01:05:00

We could they'll miss the idea anyway so Jainism then we have

01:05:05

Daoism Confucianism All these ideas in the East they didn't they had the profound moral systems

01:05:12

But no God there in the West for example Great moral system of platerized total and the stoics the ancient

01:05:19

Greeks on which the Western civilization is founded They didn't have their Christian God and what a wonderful system they gave us and then of course even today look at that the secular ethics of statecraft which is our

01:05:33

US Constitution Wow gives you goosebumps to talk about the Constitution that's

01:05:39

Absolutely secular no reference and mention of God at all And that has been the one that's guiding us for all these 200 years in spite of all the turmoil and everything and there is no mention of God There so only two brief comments.

01:05:54

I'll make which is that As I said God need not be relevant for ethics. God could be extremely helpful and important It cannot be the foundation of ethics if God could be of help then it's what we call

01:06:08

In fact faith that is reasonable faith, you know, so something could be reasonable without being rational and so God I'd like to bring in God vis -a -vis business, you know, this one respect especially by God is

01:06:26

Extremely helpful that's in business Organized business is a big business foolproof business

01:06:33

Thanks to God, you know why because to my knowledge nobody has ever come back from the dead to ask that I think back

01:06:40

You know And when we have that idea business thrives when people cannot come back if their product didn't give them what they wanted

01:06:47

Okay, and I would like to make a distinction between fantasy and illusion God is a fantasy the idea of God is a fantasy

01:06:57

It can be very helpful, you know as a fantasy if it helps us Even though it's not

01:07:04

Out there true in real world. And if we believe that it is there Then that's an illusion that hurts us, but if we take it as a fantasy

01:07:13

Meaning that it's not there But nonetheless we use it to help us in a nice way to bring in more morality more

01:07:22

Understanding and harmony and all that that's great fantasy could be very could be very helpful. For example

01:07:27

Christmas You know, we know that it is not true that on the 25th of December Jesus was born

01:07:33

He was perhaps born late in April and also also nonetheless Christmas what a wonderful celebration.

01:07:40

It is celebration of life. It's a great time joyous time We all get together even though we know that it's not true that Jesus was born at the time

01:07:47

That's a fantasy, but that's very helpful Santa Claus even kids know that Santa Claus doesn't exist even though what a nice fantasy it is

01:07:55

Santa Claus So my point is that if kids have their Santa Claus, why can't

01:08:00

God why can't adults have their God? Thank You pastor

01:08:13

Durbin for saying that just claiming things is not sufficient and therefore

01:08:21

I want you to all join me in the sacrament of conversation and to practice what is called epistemic humility and As we move forward in our question -and -answer session,

01:08:37

I think it will be very helpful to remind ourselves. What are we discussing? The proposition that we are discussing is is

01:08:46

God Necessary for ethics. There's been a lot of presuppositional enthusiasm

01:08:53

About the Christian God. I have an answer for what happened to the empty tomb if you want to bring it up in the questions

01:09:01

Where does meaning come from? I am protoplasm who cares? We could put that on a t -shirt and what is bigger than it?

01:09:11

What is bigger than us? This group is bigger than us once again objective reality is

01:09:19

Reality independent of what we believe like disease the black death does not care what you believe in Subjective reality is real because of what you believe there is nothing more urgently real than a broken heart and Then intersubjective reality is the reality that we create together and that is where ethics lands.

01:09:42

This is the Academy I am Eli Ayala of revealed apologetics and I will be bringing a six -part series on presuppositional apologetics

01:09:51

Defending the faith is super important and I'm excited to be able to participate in helping equip you to do that effectively and biblically in My series we're gonna be unpacking all different aspects of the presuppositional method

01:10:04

What makes presuppositional apologetics different than other approaches how to answer objections to the presuppositional approach?

01:10:11

What is the role of the authority of Scripture? What is the role of theology in defending the faith all of these things we talked about and more?

01:10:18

We try to bring it up a notch and not giving you completely introductory material But kind of digging deep into the ins and outs of this method

01:10:25

I am looking forward to equipping you and participating with you and training you to be better defenders of the

01:10:32

Christian faith We're now going to move into a 20 minute

01:10:47

Section of cross -examination 20 minutes for each side We're going to begin with cross -examination from the affirmative to the negative and then we will follow that up with 20 minutes of Questioning from the negative to the affirmative.

01:11:03

So we'll go ahead and start our 20 minutes now

01:11:10

Thank you gentlemen Thank you so much for for being here with us and doing this if I could ask you this question to respond to the quote that I had my

01:11:21

Opening statement from dr. Will Provine the professor of biological sciences at Cornell he says that because of his views of modern evolutionary biology, it tells us loud and clear and These are

01:11:32

Darwin's views that there are no gods no purposeful forces of any kind no life after death When I die,

01:11:38

I'm absolutely certain that I'm gonna be all completely dead. That's just all that's gonna be the end of me There is no ultimate foundation for ethics

01:11:45

No ultimate meaning in life and no free will for humans either. Could you respond to dr.

01:11:51

Will Provine given your worldview? Yeah, I I agree with the beginning of that.

01:11:59

I do personally believe that When we die our consciousness most likely does not persist

01:12:07

I would comment on the ultimate Versus greater because I think that's very very important.

01:12:14

It is true that questions of meaning are not Objective or absolute and that is an amazing wonderful thing because again that means that each of us is able to Determine what is meaningful to us and what is important to us.

01:12:31

I Honor the fact that for many here Christ and the

01:12:38

Bible are Guidelines for meaning and purpose and ethics. I celebrate that you need to be very use the

01:12:45

Bible very carefully But that is not the case for everyone but the important thing that makes it greater than us individually to answer some of the questions as Far as like aren't there just billions of points of view?

01:12:58

Well, yes, there are billions of points of view But again, we are all part of the conversation.

01:13:04

And so in response Yes, even if there is no life after death, even if there is no absolute meaning that means that there is life

01:13:15

Before death and there is meaning before death. Mr. Anderson.

01:13:20

I don't think you answered the question. So I'll ask it again Please do as he says there's no ultimate foundation for ethics given your worldview

01:13:27

Yes, no ultimate meaning in life and no free will for humans either you say that It needs to be meaningful to us.

01:13:35

It's at least meaningful to us Was it meaningful to the Green River killer Gary Ridgway?

01:13:41

Was was his determination of what was meaningful for him just as valuable or meaningful as your perspective that he was wrong

01:13:52

Meaningful is different than defensible I work with murderers and pedophiles all the time.

01:13:58

I have a least favorite pedophile. They're wrong. He's very annoying. Yes They're absolutely wrong or they're they're technically

01:14:06

Intersubjectively wrong, so they're not absolutely No, because it's all a conversation the debates over friends

01:14:13

They are intersubjectively wrong. So so you admit mr. Anderson that they are not absolutely wrong

01:14:19

The Green River killer is not absolutely wrong Ted Bundy is not absolutely wrong child rapists are not absolutely wrong and you came to debate that your worldview provides a foundation for ethics

01:14:29

Yes the humanist perspective does provide a foundation for ethics because again

01:14:35

Rape is wrong. Murder according is wrong According to the cultural conversation that we are all of which apart so if a society draws a circle around themselves and says that you can kill and cannibalize other human beings as Long as there are large enough society that draws a circle around themselves and they determine that it's right.

01:14:55

It's right to eat other humans Some cultures have believed that yes, so they they are part of the conversation.

01:15:02

I Depends on the context so killing killing and cannibalizing other human beings could be ethical in your system

01:15:12

If you're frozen after a plane crash and our soccer players, no, I think you missed it. Mr. Anderson.

01:15:17

I'll say it again killing and Cannibalizing another human being could be ethical so long as you have enough people that agree with you

01:15:24

That's not what would make it ethical. It would not be the agreement It would be the conversation and the navigation and the negotiation so for example a mercy killing would be an example of Ethical killing because again the best version of that person would agree in my ethics class in Divinity School I argue that the second best version of serial killers want to be killed

01:15:49

So that's a common ground that you and I have so mr. Anderson Given what you've just said.

01:15:55

Why ought we to love our neighbors rather than eat them? Because that is what they prefer and That is part of the cultural conversation and yes all of these groups should be part of the conversation and I think we should be horrified by what

01:16:10

Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot have already admitted. Mr. Anderson that there's no absolute above Mao or Stalin or Paul Potts So there's why so let me finish the question.

01:16:21

Yes Why should we be horrified when there is no absolute standard to hold them to you've already

01:16:26

Agreed that if they decide as a Culture and community that what they did was right morally right then they're right in your system

01:16:35

And there's no complaint because the victims would not agree and the victims also have a say the victims you believe are descendants of bacteria

01:16:44

Yep Thank you. Let me ask Your side had made the indication at one point.

01:16:50

It was said that the Greeks gave us this great civilization Let me point out that Alexander the

01:16:57

Great not only Enslaved millions of people but in his battles in basically conquering the known world that time killed millions of people as well

01:17:08

And so by what standard do you say that the Greeks gave us a great civilization at the same time say?

01:17:16

Yeah, except they also enslave millions of people and killed millions of people in the process

01:17:21

Is there anything outside of what you call a conversation whereby someone like Alexander the

01:17:27

Great can be actually be judged? Okay, I I guess it's directed toward me

01:17:35

Okay Okay, so it's directed toward me So let me respond you are making a caricature of our statements, you know, so you have to listen to us carefully, please

01:17:47

I Talked about Plato as total the stoics I named them

01:17:52

I did not mention Alexander the Great of course He can show us other things to besides killing that we can emulate, you know

01:17:59

His valor his courage and all that but at the same time I would not I did not talk about him

01:18:04

I said that the Western ideas of justice civilization those ancient idea

01:18:11

Our traditional ideas are based on those ancient ideas that we find in Socrates Plato Aristotle and the stoics

01:18:17

You know, I brought that in and they did not have Christian God at that time, you know So that's I wanted to say so therefore what you are saying is not quite right to put that on me and also secondly,

01:18:31

I Can't stop there. Of course, and then I can go on other things, you know, right right after you you made that statement

01:18:37

This will sort of help me to clarify what I was asking I was talking about the consistency of the worldview of these systems you

01:18:45

I believe said that the Constitution of the United States Did you say is totally secular?

01:18:51

It is a secular Constitution. Yes secular Constitution so when you look at the authors of the

01:18:56

Constitution of the United States and You look at how they interpreted their own words in regards to the value of human life and things like that you don't think it's important to recognize the the

01:19:07

Prevalence of the Christian worldview that formed the language they used. I'll comment first really really quick if I may

01:19:16

I mean most of the founding fathers were deists and Unitarians I really like Thomas Jefferson's conversation around separation of church and state and I think

01:19:25

Thomas Jefferson is a poignant example Of the struggles of human goodness because of course he owned slaves

01:19:34

He had children by his slaves and he also was one of the authors of this beautiful aspirational document

01:19:44

Mr. Anderson, you mentioned separation of church and state when Thomas Jefferson mentions that in reference to the

01:19:50

Danbury Baptists He mentions the separation of church and straight state. Where did that doctrine of the separation of church and state come from?

01:19:59

I mean, I know that As you said that the documentation was was in that letter and then of course, there's the

01:20:06

First Amendment, you know Where the doctrine the historic doctrine of the separation of church of church and state comes from I'm not sure but please tell me

01:20:16

Are you aware that it comes from the Covenanters the Huguenots? the people who believed in Lex Rex that the law of God is transcendent and that the

01:20:23

Government has to obey God in their sphere and that the church obeys God in their sphere and therefore they are separate institutions both obligated to obey

01:20:32

God I'm sorry. Are you aware that the separation of church and state is a Christian doctrine? I'm not sure.

01:20:40

Okay. Okay, mr. Anderson. You also used the term epistemic humility could you differentiate between your utilization of that phrase epistemic humility and a basic statement of Agnosticism toward whether God can or cannot speak.

01:20:57

So in other words if God has spoken historically What kind of evidence would you actually accept that he has spoken and has given us the norms for ethics?

01:21:08

Morality, what would you accept as evidence? I love that question. Thank you So I think a starting point that we all might be able to agree on is that God is bigger than us maybe

01:21:22

I know it's not our turn yet, but If God is bigger than us So like let's say if God exists and God is bigger than us

01:21:29

Then we cannot fully understand God and so that I I am a devout agnostic certain theist

01:21:37

I am a devout agnostic because I take seriously that we as human beings do not know everything

01:21:45

I actually do believe that God exists. I believe that we function as Divine, I believe that God is an idea that billions of people believe

01:21:55

So yeah done You have you said on a webcast I was listening to that. You've actually created your own pantheon of God.

01:22:02

Is that true? I I'm honored by the investment. Yes, I have

01:22:08

Personified my highest ideal which is elegant efficient approaches to well -being. I have them illustrated.

01:22:14

They're very pretty So doesn't that demonstrate that you recognize you need something higher than yourself to have ethics and morality because you're creating deities that that illustrate these things

01:22:26

Absolute absolutely, and I'm so glad that you used the word higher than yourself because I completely agree

01:22:34

Dr Chatterjee agrees like we do need things that are higher than ourselves and one thing that I wrestle with is that religion has done

01:22:42

Incomparable good at inexcusable cost and I think it's a really important conversation to have

01:22:50

Thank you So you refer to yourself as a devout agnostic? So that would mean that you're devoted to the to the idea that you don't know

01:23:00

Yes, and it means it means that in each situation. I am

01:23:06

NOT the expert on you. I Am NOT the expert.

01:23:13

So as a chaplain I meet people where they are I Listen carefully.

01:23:19

We are all and forever mystery What happens in a lot of relationship arguments is that so we all have?

01:23:26

Invented versions of the people around us in our head and then we get mad that they do not fulfill, you know

01:23:32

Like I can't believe you did that that's because they don't correspond with the invented versions of them in our head

01:23:37

Instead I am devoutly agnostic and we are all forever mystery and I say wow that really surprised me

01:23:44

Will you teach me about yourself so that I can better love you and care for you?

01:23:50

I appreciate that answer but the question was Devout agnostic means you're devoted to the idea that you do not know

01:23:59

Yes, thus the epistemic humility. So epistemic humility. Do you have epistemic humility with the pedophile?

01:24:09

Or do you know that it's wrong it is it's more important what their victims think

01:24:18

I am NOT like it is

01:24:24

Well, let me if I could put it this way. Let's say that you and I go out to dinner afterwards

01:24:32

Okay, be happy to and and while we're at dinner at dinner together somebody breaks into your vehicle and Urinates on your seats and takes your car stereo

01:24:44

There's still car stereos. So specific take out the computer I'm trying to make this as ugly as possible

01:24:51

I'm trying to make it as ugly as possible Jared Will you have epistemic humility with the thief or will you call the police assuming?

01:25:00

There's an objective standard of morality. They violate. Okay, you said about five things in that question

01:25:07

So like yes, I would call the police No, there's not objective reality because this is the social contract and the social agreement.

01:25:15

So again society is bigger than us That's all that is needed. So I said an ethical conversation violated any standards and justice isn't really necessary It just makes you uncomfortable

01:25:28

Considering the societal convention that is developed. No, it does demonstrable harm.

01:25:34

So That is part of our agreement then it like I he doesn't agree

01:25:39

So what's your answer to him preach the gospel of humanism to him? He doesn't agree.

01:25:45

I Probably have met him in prison and I again I have had so the the great thing about ethics versus morality is

01:25:56

That we can have an educated conversation around why pedophilia is wrong

01:26:02

We can also have a conversation why marital rape is wrong, you know, these are very very important conversations to have

01:26:09

So let's try that since we're out of time here. Yeah, Jared Why is pedophilia wrong given your world?

01:26:16

Again, I'm glad you asked it's because of the power dynamics at play and the developmental level of all those involved if a yes is if Someone cannot say yes

01:26:29

But if someone cannot say no a yes does not count and I think power dynamics need to be taken very

01:26:36

Seriously, excellent when it comes to so you believe the power dynamics is a foundation for this

01:26:42

Someone has to be able to say yes to what's being done to their body. Yeah your system.

01:26:47

Are you pro -choice? Yes So in relation to the developing human being in the womb, they can't say yes

01:26:58

They are involved in that power dynamic where somebody is taking the life of a human being in an unjustified manner

01:27:06

But you believe that that's appropriate. It's appropriate might for rights is okay in abortion.

01:27:12

No, not at all I mean one of the issues that we have in our country is that corpses have more rights than women

01:27:20

Because I I deal with donor services all the time in the hospital and I cannot take your organ

01:27:26

Even if you are dead and so when I mean Abortion is an important issue and I think that we should do all that we can to minimize abortion

01:27:40

It's problematic and it's complex and I think that we should be given as many options as possible

01:27:46

To make the best choice for everyone It was it was said earlier and I think it was dr.

01:27:52

Chatterjee said that he's pro -life and pro -choice. Yes I would put myself in the same category.

01:27:58

Okay, so this is a debate on ethics and If what you're saying is your conclusion is

01:28:05

I can be both sides of a life -and -death issue Doesn't that demonstrate why you need to have something outside of humanity to give us the standard by which?

01:28:16

You can be saved from this schizophrenia. I mean saying you're pro -life and pro -choice at the same time is

01:28:28

Is a is a it's a self -contradictory statement. Do you eat meat? Yes We are all

01:28:37

Pro -life and pro -choice all of us, but mr.

01:28:43

Anderson Do you recognize the distinction in the Christian worldview that sees the difference between? Image of God in humanity and animals and creatures and beasts

01:28:53

Are you calling me a Christian? No, I'm saying in the Christian worldview

01:28:58

There's a distinction between what is the image of God something very special in humanity that elevates humanity above all other creation

01:29:06

It makes it unique you just you so strongly desire that and I sense that I've listened to hours of your talks and podcasts

01:29:12

And everything else. I'm so sincerely appreciate you You're a very kind and gracious person, but you recognize that humanity is something has something distinct about them

01:29:20

But your worldview doesn't comport with that in your worldview. We're just fish that became philosophers

01:29:28

Bacteria that evolved through purpose. We are we are more fish that became gods in my in my world

01:29:34

But that's meaningless because it's a fictional God It's not a God that has any really essence of the God in your perspective changes the world

01:29:40

I mean, it's very real in an arbitrary manner though, correct? No, not arbitrary in a defensible manner.

01:29:46

Okay, let me ask dr. China Thank you. Mr. Anderson. Dr. Chatterjee want to get you involved as well.

01:29:51

You mentioned numerous times that that you kept appealing to Rationality and reason in your discourse and here's my question to you.

01:30:01

Dr. Chatterjee given your worldview Are we required to hold to immaterial universal and unchanging laws of logic this evening?

01:30:10

Considering the fact that you are a as you've said before a devout atheist who believes that we evolved from the scum

01:30:17

I Don't see the question. I don't understand the question.

01:30:24

Could you please repeat that? We're drawing something from something else Are we required to hold to immaterial universal and unchanging laws of logic given that you're an atheist who believes we've evolved through purposeless?

01:30:36

unguided forces from Bacteria why ought we to be rational given your perspective?

01:30:43

Firstly, I mean, I'm a humanist. So is Mr. Anderson, and I don't know why you are not talking about all the wonderful aspects of humanism rationalism and atheism rather than being obsessed with pedophilia and serial killers and worms and What fish

01:31:07

I don't understand so brought me a perspective, okay I mean, this is the idea that you lump everything in the worst possible way and you think that that's what we are

01:31:16

We are you know, of course, none of us we support Hitler Mao or Whoever, you know

01:31:22

Stalin all that Time was actually over of course, but I don't see why

01:31:31

If you like to answer it you're welcome So Then we can ask our questions.

01:31:38

Yes. Now it's 20 minutes of questions from the of cross -examination from the negative to the affirmative

01:31:47

By the way, ah, there were some questions about my accent I have to let you know that I have been living in Utah for a long time

01:31:55

So I've had this like Utah accent, you know At Times it's hard to understand you tax and but better get used to it.

01:32:05

You'll get it. Okay, so Okay, so my question is this look as a humanist

01:32:16

Rationalist, I do not believe in Dogma or fairy tales, of course,

01:32:22

I do not believe in heaven or hell and no life after death Does that mean that therefore

01:32:28

I have no meaning in life I mean you are drawing sort of absurd conclusions out of something that does that that doesn't even warrant, you know that conclusion

01:32:36

You know surely rationalist and human is to a full of purpose fluff meaning in life, you know

01:32:42

But there are reasons for that and we have to get into those ideas Okay, and so therefore my question will be why is it that you believe that?

01:32:51

simply holding on to your faith and Especially believing putting even children

01:33:00

Into that faith early on to get them brainwashed and not letting them develop with curiosity

01:33:08

Imagination empathy and critical thinking along with wonder all these great qualities that helps to develop a child's mind

01:33:16

You are just getting it close by holding on to this one view But if you'd like to hold on to that one view,

01:33:22

I would like to find out some reason why you believe that is Christianity You have not given us any reason let alone why it should be

01:33:29

God in the first place And then if it's God why it's the Christian God the lots of steps. You're omitting all those steps, you know

01:33:37

I should admit one thing in that context Okay, that's a that's that's a very very long question, but we have given you a great deal

01:33:45

The last question that you struggled with is one of the clearest examples of this that is you say you're a rationalist

01:33:53

Why should you believe these things and we ask you? Why should we tonight in this room all of us be using laws of logic?

01:34:02

To answer questions and to evaluate responses in your worldview

01:34:07

You can't give us a reason why on pure purely naturalistic presuppositions

01:34:13

Why these laws of logic exist and why we all recognize that we need to be utilizing them

01:34:18

And so that's the fundamental thing you with without the Christian God, you're just left going.

01:34:24

Well, you know Yes, I am a evolved I'm just evolved but I have purpose and you just have to believe it and we're asking why and Then I also have multiple times pointed out that as far as the

01:34:38

Christian God is concerned We have an empty tomb in Jerusalem and so there is a fundamental claim that Jesus made as to who he was and Then proved that by his resurrection and that then becomes the foundation of being able to say

01:34:53

It's the Christian God that has the right to define these things for us because he's the one who made us and if I could answer dr.

01:35:01

Chatterjee you you bring up the the claim of Christians have dogma

01:35:07

Christians brainwash and I would hope that it'd be clear to every rational and thinking person that Everybody on this stage has dogma

01:35:17

Doctrine and we all teach the public schools have dogma. They have doctrine your system has dogma and doctrine

01:35:26

It's not the question of whether we have dogma and doctrine It's which dogma and doctrine is actually in accordance with the truth

01:35:32

You ask the question of why would we brainwash our children in the Christian faith? Why would we teach them things like empathy love?

01:35:40

Why when we talk about things like beauty truth goodness knowledge, and I'm gonna say dr Chatterjee because apart from the biblical worldview all of those concepts have absolutely no meaning

01:35:50

Without the Christian worldview. There is no true love without the Christian worldview. There is no beauty without the

01:35:56

Christian worldview There is no foundation that satisfies the preconditions of intelligibility Necessary for science for logic for ethics for truth for beauty for goodness and so we talk to our kids about these things because They're the truth.

01:36:12

And so I know you use the word brainwashing But it really comes down to we're all teaching who's teaching something that's in accordance with the truth

01:36:22

Can I just respond look? Why do you believe that?

01:36:28

love empathy Good ideas meaning in life all those things. You have to be only a

01:36:34

Christian to have that What about the whole big world Christianity just one tiny part of it

01:36:39

But if we believe that way you have to give some reason you're simply repeating yourself going in a cycle.

01:36:45

I don't understand So perhaps you missed some of it but what

01:36:52

I said in the opening statement is I provided a Justification or a philosophical warrant for the claims that I was making and I based them upon the triune

01:37:00

God of Holy Scripture He's revealed himself in nature through prophets and apostles and ultimately through the incarnation of Jesus Christ in history

01:37:07

In other words, dr Chatterjee the Christian claim is that God has spoken and the claim of scripture is that apart from the

01:37:13

Christian God if you reject him You become a fool Intellectually morally and apart from the

01:37:19

Christian God you can't prove anything. I'll give you one example. Dr. Chatterjee So you can see what I'm aiming at when we challenged you to provide a foundation or justification for why we should be rational given your worldview

01:37:30

You haven't given one and you can't give one in your worldview because your worldview is a naturalistic worldview

01:37:36

Where all you have is matter in motion, but laws of logic are immaterial invariance universal laws and truths that we're all supposed to be holding on to the

01:37:48

Christian worldview can provide a foundation for those Concepts in those truths, but your system cannot so reject

01:37:55

Jesus and reject the laws of logic Reject Jesus and reject science the uniformity in nature the principle of induction

01:38:03

Reject Jesus and say things like it might be okay to eat your neighbor rather than love them

01:38:11

Well, I have the highest respect for Christianity Christian God But I don't like people being close -minded if you believe that way

01:38:21

I would like to see some reason for that because there is a bigger world outside of Christianity I didn't see any reason why we have to confine ourselves to Christianity give some reasons

01:38:32

In fact, I perhaps I can give you more better reasons as to why Christianity is such a wonderful religion that that then what?

01:38:39

We have been hearing from you. Let me cite one thing. Okay If I could answer that dr. Chatterjee when you say there's so much more outside of Christianity if Jesus was who he claimed to be

01:38:51

Then what could be outside of Christianity? He's described in Colossians chapter 1 for by him were all things made were in heaven and earth visible invisible

01:38:59

Principalities powers dominions or authorities all things created by him and for him and he is before all things and him all things hold together

01:39:05

They consist. So if Jesus is actually the incarnate creator, what could be outside of him?

01:39:11

That's the whole point We're saying we have our Creator has entered into his creation and said this is how you live

01:39:18

This is how you have have life So you have to say Jesus had to have been wrong

01:39:24

You literally have to make an epistemic claim that Jesus was not who he claimed to be

01:39:31

To say there's something outside of the realm of his authority. I have a follow -up question.

01:39:37

How do we know what Jesus said? We have the records given to us not only well, let me just point out we we keep

01:39:46

I did hear a little misunderstanding When we talk about the Christian faith, we're talking about everything

01:39:52

From the beginning of Revelation in with Moses all the way through the

01:39:58

New Testament So we're not just talking about the New Testament, but how do we know what Jesus wrote? Well, you ought to see my debate with Bart Ehrman on that subject

01:40:06

Have you seen that debate did Jesus write anything? Uh, no, he did not write anything as far as a book that's been passed down to us

01:40:14

Uh, but his disciples provided to us those documents Yeah, no, we we have multiple traditions about what

01:40:22

Jesus said and did i'm asking you. What are your criteria? for evaluating them

01:40:28

When you say multiple traditions, please define what you mean um I mean the synoptics versus john's so we have the sayings of g well,

01:40:37

I mean I'm going to bracket a question which is what does christianity have to do with the debate is god necessary for ethics

01:40:43

But i'll i'll just put that aside since this is the conversation we're having um So we have jesus's words and actions in mark and then we have them in matthew

01:40:53

And then we have them in luke and then we have them in john Um, so how do you i'm genuinely curious, you know, like how do you evaluate?

01:41:02

What so did jesus say every single thing that's mentioned in all of the gospels

01:41:07

Yes. Okay. Thank you Yes, in fact, in fact, in fact, for example, I taught through the synoptic gospels for nine years in the original languages

01:41:16

And uh, there is there is no uh conflict between the synoptic tradition and the ohanian tradition as to Uh who jesus was what he taught for example, uh, just one one glowing example since you said you studied under bart ehrman he likes to try to uh introduce a contradiction between the synoptic gospels and john as to the day of the crucifixion, uh that is

01:41:38

Easily demonstrated to be completely false. He does not understand uh that the uh

01:41:44

That the passover was a a week -long feast and just on a basic basic level.

01:41:49

Dr Ehrman makes numerous basic errors on those levels, but he doesn't allow anybody to correct him because well, he's bart ehrman

01:41:58

Yeah, which Which textual tradition do you feel is the most accurate? I'm just curious when you say textual tradition

01:42:05

Uh, even even dr. Ehrman has admitted. We know what the new testament originally said. We're just playing with little details

01:42:11

Um, and so when I debated dr. Ehrman on this subject, I asked him Uh, can you show us any place in the new testament where you do not believe that we continue to have the original readings?

01:42:21

He pointed us to one word in second peter as I recall that had absolutely no meaning

01:42:27

Uh as to doctrine or anything like that So the reality is uh, I I think uh in that debate with dr

01:42:35

Ehrman, he said that the new testament is by far the earliest attested work of all of antiquity um, and he's right about that so uh

01:42:44

Doesn't matter which whether we're talking byzantine manuscripts or alexandrian manuscripts That nomenclature actually has now been pretty much debunked by cbgm but Uh, it doesn't matter which manuscripts we're using if you use the texas receptus or you use the nessie all in text same gospel

01:42:59

Same teaching same message that we're delivering this evening. Okay pick. Thank you quick devotional pivot

01:43:05

Um, what are your thoughts on interfaith cooperation? I have no idea what that has to do with our subject this evening, but um, it's it's ethics

01:43:15

Which means that each religion has its framework of ethics you you have claimed to be christian supremacists

01:43:21

What? You have demonstrated that you are christian supremacist. Yes The g the jesus was who he claimed to be.

01:43:28

Yes. Okay, if that makes you a christian supremacist, okay I mean you have said that i'm gonna make that a t -shirt jared

01:43:36

Okay, you know you get you get christian supremacist do we have to give you any money for that That's what

01:43:43

I want protoplasm. Oh Protoplasm with a purpose. There you go. We'll make those two out of this debate.

01:43:49

Can I just make a quick point? Okay Well, I just if I could jerry can I answer a little bit please? Yeah, here's Just take this as you know, something is okay if it's true.

01:43:58

Jesus claims that he was god in human flesh He received worship. Jesus forgave sins

01:44:03

Uh, jesus showed power and creative control of his own creation walking on water healing people raising a little girl from the dead raising him

01:44:12

Lazarus from the dead raising himself from the dead. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life No man comes to the father but by me

01:44:19

If that's true, I don't believe any of it is but right it grants it as a hypothesis Okay, if it's true

01:44:25

That he is god in the flesh that he is the eternal god that he's the savior and he says he's the only way to god

01:44:31

If someone believes that does that make them a christian supremacist? Yeah Well, it depends on what their belief

01:44:40

This is why I asked because it depends on their belief about other religions because there are multiple paths.

01:44:46

Jesus says i'm god And it's true. Let's again take it as a hypothesis Yeah, let's say it's true that he is actually god and then someone comes along and claims that he isn't god

01:44:56

When it is the case that he is god Is it wrong to point out that they're wrong? Depends on what your purpose is

01:45:03

But if it's true that he's god And they say that he's not and it's actually true that he is if someone says you're wrong

01:45:12

Is that showing epistemic humility? It is time for your questions to them. So one one. Sorry one.

01:45:17

I know one follow Yeah, one one one follow -up question then can people worship god without knowing?

01:45:26

Can people worship god without knowing yeah Well, the scriptures teach that all of humanity this goes to some of the things that dr

01:45:32

Chatterjee, you've been saying as well Like there's all these other people all these other religions all these other gods The scriptures teach that all of us are made in the image of the same god

01:45:40

There's only one true and living god and that we all know the same which scripture are we talking about?

01:45:45

Well, if I could just finish it, we all know the same god The problem isn't that we don't know this god or that there's a lack of lighter evidence.

01:45:52

The problem is jared. Dr Chatterjee myself james. We're all sinners. We're all rebels and what we end up doing.

01:45:59

Dr Chatterjee to get to these other religions and all these other conceptions of god Is that we don't want to know the true god because we hate him because we're rebels against him

01:46:08

So we switch him for gods that look a lot like us You mentioned all these other religions when you study these religions

01:46:14

You'll see that those gods look a lot like us like in mormonism. You were a latter -day saint You know that the god of mormonism elohim

01:46:22

He became a god one day just like we will through exaltation He had a god before him who had a god before him a body as tangible as man's of flesh and bone

01:46:30

And that he has sex with his goddess wives to produce children Just like us their gods look just like us the christian god is distinct because he is not like us

01:46:40

He is like you asked for something that is transcendent and above us But the problem is is that we don't want the true god.

01:46:47

We know him jared scripture says But we don't want him in our knowledge So we suppress the truth about him and I would just say this with love towards you gentlemen

01:46:55

That suppression is coming out so clearly tonight in your desire for love your desire for justice your desire for truth

01:47:03

But you have a worldview that just militates again against those concepts with every statement you make

01:47:09

I think I hear a projection but I I like really really really quick again demonstrate that Tonight you make a lot of claims

01:47:18

Justifying no, we we we have yeah, we have a framework of conversation You are the one who has a framework for fighting, but um,

01:47:26

I am genuinely curious What your approach to interfaith? Cooperation is can you describe what you mean by that?

01:47:35

Give me a little more broader between what faiths for example, i've done many many debates with muslims.

01:47:40

They're not not not debates service Well, but my point is i've done many many debates with muslims and in those debates there are issues that we would agree upon as monotheists

01:47:52

So I don't think that's what you mean by cooperation Um, ibu patel has the interfaith youth core and that would be an example of something that I Um that i'm talking about.

01:48:03

So do you value with your worldview Um, let's say there's a flood, you know, so like all which there very well might be in in the month or two um

01:48:14

Do you value all of us coming together? No matter what our beliefs are no matter what our worldviews are and coming and sandbagging together so um, do

01:48:25

I appreciate and am I thankful for image bearers of god acting like image bearers of god in moments of crisis in those sorts of things

01:48:33

Absolutely that the question though is being able to justify what they're doing

01:48:38

So when the atheist shows compassion love and mercy and gives of themselves to help say flood victims or tornado victims

01:48:45

I'm, so grateful because they are imaging god the whole way through their worldview

01:48:50

However doesn't comport with what they're doing their worldview doesn't provide the preconditions necessary To actually do what they're doing in a meaningful way

01:48:59

So for example, the christian worldview says image bearers of god. This is a fallen world.

01:49:05

This is a tragedy This is broken. This ought not to be so from the from the atheist perspective.

01:49:11

This is just Cosmic accidents being stirred around on a Quick follow -up.

01:49:18

So You just said that they don't line up with their worldviews So you're more an expert on others worldviews than they are you said tonight that you do believe that you're descendants of bacteria and fish so i'm

01:49:30

Giving you your worldview and i'm telling you the implications Now i'm talking about interfaith cooperation so like atheism is one thing but if A hindu has a religious reason to serve if a muslim has a religious leader to serve reason to serve

01:49:46

If a buddhist has a religious reason to serve In your worldview, are they expressing their imagio dei?

01:49:54

Like their their divine nature. Yeah, according to their own religion. No, I think

01:50:00

I I think that's a good question I think I answered that in terms of Everybody knows the true god. It's a problem of the suppression of truth

01:50:06

And so all the expressions of idolatry or false worship are because of the fundamental Problem of humanity that we're sinners.

01:50:13

We rebel against god and we switch god for idols However, this is important because you said this tonight like somehow we were vilifying you we're showing you your worldview

01:50:22

But you guys are in the image of god You could throw a coin into the mud And it could be marred and covered in dirt

01:50:29

But that image hasn't been lost and it hasn't been lost in you gentlemen tonight It's it's the image of god is still there

01:50:35

But you cannot provide the preconditions necessary or the justification for the claims that you're making tonight

01:50:42

That's the point Then you weren't listening, but I appreciate that We still have less a little less than a minute one quick point, uh,

01:50:54

I didn't mean to say that All biblical prophecies are wrong that scriptural

01:51:01

Ideas don't make any sense. I didn't quite get to that point in case you thought so Look, I started believing the biblical prophecy after I saw

01:51:12

What happened in colorado and in the state of washington the first ratified?

01:51:18

uh, the uh same -sex marriage then they also ratified, uh, the uh, the the uh, uh, the uh, cannabis, uh this

01:51:29

Uh marijuana law. Okay, so that that's legal for recreational purposes. Okay, and that made me

01:51:36

More convinced about at least one biblical prophecy Which is that if two men share the same bed, they should be stoned, you know, so we have this

01:51:47

Historical that's that's not a that's not a prophecy. That's a that's a law. I'd like to be able to They went they went at least three minutes over one point so biblical law biblical law

01:51:57

Uh, it's now empirically verified. Yeah, so many years after the bible, you know, so i'm convinced there's some truth in the bible

01:52:04

Yeah From the beginning of human history and redemptive history.

01:52:09

There's been a conflict Between light and darkness the children of god versus the father of lies

01:52:15

It goes all the way back to abraham versus his culture moses versus pharaoh david versus goliath

01:52:22

The prophets versus the unfaithful and paul versus the philosophers this Collision this antithesis has existed from the very beginning

01:52:31

And it's important for christians to recognize the duty that we have before god to proclaim the truth and to take down Every argument that exalts itself against the knowledge of christ the knowledge of god

01:52:42

We're commanded to have a reasoned defense for the hope that's within us And so we need to be ready to press the antithesis to be part of that collision

01:52:50

Let's get started uh, we now have

01:53:08

Closing statements of five minutes each from both sides once again starting with the affirmative

01:53:26

Thank you. Mr. Anderson. Thank you. Dr. Chatterjee for being here with us tonight. I do really appreciate it very very much.

01:53:32

Thank you so Where do we go from here? Because from my perspective

01:53:41

I mean this with as much humility as possible The debate was on whether god is necessary as a foundation for ethics

01:53:50

Jared admitted That there's no ultimate foundation for ethics Do you hear that?

01:53:57

No, nothing ultimate nothing absolute Even and this is just because he's being consistent.

01:54:04

I'm not chastising. Mr. Anderson for this He was just trying hard to be consistent though with his worldview.

01:54:12

He has no obligation to He was trying to be consistent when I challenged him on the question of a murderer a serial rapist a pedophile

01:54:20

And he admitted In the cross -examination go back and listen to the tape This will all be up so everyone can review this and go through it and listen to the arguments

01:54:28

He admitted that murderers and rapists molesters are not absolutely wrong

01:54:35

He even admitted that with his worldview it could be right to murder and eat your neighbor

01:54:41

So long as enough people agree with you and you've created a culture that does that Friends brothers and sisters

01:54:52

The debate is over The debate is over you have two gentlemen here that I honor who are made in the image of god

01:55:00

Who are not just bags of meat bone proto protoplasm. They are not simply cosmic broccoli as dan barker has said

01:55:07

They are in the image of god and you watch them up here tonight doing what scripture says they would do

01:55:13

Suppressing the truth and unrighteousness Wanting desperately what they could only have in god

01:55:19

What they could only have in god And yet their worldviews Do not comport with what they're doing with what they desire.

01:55:27

The problem is the problem of human sin And this question of ethics, you know

01:55:33

We're talking about scripture god's word being the very foundation For ethical absolutes and obligations go back to the opening statement friends.

01:55:42

What did I say? I said the christian god the triune god of scripture has revealed himself

01:55:47

In history his revelation is not in secret It is in natural revelation something that cannot be missed the heavens declare the glory of god

01:55:57

To the degree that scripture says the fool says in his heart. There is no god That it is that obvious it is not clear that god has made himself known to all of us

01:56:08

He's made himself so known to us and so clear to us that even Tonight you have men who desperately cling to what they can only have in jesus christ goodness truth beauty moral absolutes

01:56:22

Justice all those things they talk about violence as though it's a bad thing That was the image of god and I told you in the opening very humbly.

01:56:29

I said watch their hands tonight Watch how they sneak their hands over to the christian worldview to borrow capital that doesn't belong to their worldview

01:56:38

This is not a question of whether christians and atheists can do moral things

01:56:44

That wasn't the topic of the debate. The question is which worldview can justify

01:56:50

Provide a coherent foundation to appeal to morality and ethics at all

01:56:55

You heard from the atheist side tonight the agnostic side tonight Um, by the way agnosticism it means a without knowledge a gnosis.

01:57:05

How many knowledge claims did jared make up here tonight? He's a devout agnostic. He doesn't know

01:57:11

But he says he knows a lot of things makes a lot of claims and so you can see the internal Contradiction that happens constantly at every turn.

01:57:19

The question is which worldview can justify The appeals you make to logic when dealing with ethics the appeals you make to ethical absolutes

01:57:28

However, I have to say i'm kind of in a jam here and I mean this very humbly When I say let's provide a justification for absolutes from our respective worldviews

01:57:39

He admitted there is there are no absolutes There is no ultimate foundation to ethics. And so we have a debate debate tonight where What you've seen is that the christian worldview can provide you the reference point the eternal

01:57:51

Unchanging character of god that is the foundation that provides the foundation And justification for ethics and you have the admission tonight before your own eyes and ears

01:58:02

That atheism or agnosticism with its rejection of jesus christ can provide no ultimates no absolutes the issue tonight

01:58:12

For all of us for all of our ethical failures is our need for jesus christ. That's the end.

01:58:17

He mentioned sin And uh, he mentioned guilt and shame as a bad thing Friends guilt and shame is very important and the problem with us is our ethical problem

01:58:27

We've sinned against a holy god and the only answer is repentance and faith in jesus christ who saves sinners

01:58:33

And dr. Chatterjee, he can remove your guilt and shame as well The the topic of the debate is

01:58:49

Is god necessary for ethics? Instead of getting into this debate

01:58:55

The two of us and maybe some of you too. We have heard a sermon a christian sermon

01:59:01

It was not a debate. We wanted something more than that. We wanted to get them out of their box to whole and get into Responding to people with a broader perspective than repeating their same dogma and belief

01:59:16

Again and again, you know, my point is that not only ethics but life should not be based on dogma

01:59:23

And christian god or any god for that matter that we know of Which are anthropomorphic they're made in human image, you know, okay

01:59:31

And that is human creation if the if the triangles would have had their religion

01:59:37

I'm sure their god would have had three sides, you know, so anyway Um, so it

01:59:43

I wanted I expected something more than this go ahead Derek One thing we all agree on is that we have failed at this debate

01:59:56

And that is because we've been having different debates. In fact, this wasn't a debate except in structure

02:00:04

Christianity was not the topic of this debate. Jesus was slipped in. I think he'll forgive us Um It would have been nice to spend some time on common ground

02:00:14

Morality is greater than each of us Even if ethics is not absolute

02:00:21

It is bigger than us. It needs to be defensible. It is the conversation Every religion has its answers to what is right and what is wrong each of you.

02:00:32

I hope Have your answers about what is right and wrong and now you are invited to this conversation about ethics

02:00:39

Whether or not we believe in god we can all be ethical whether or not we believe in god

02:00:46

Whether or not we believe god is necessary for ethics. We can treat each other Well, I know I speak for dr Chatterjee as well when

02:00:52

I say my priority in this debate has been not only to debate ethics But to model respectful ethical behavior in a debate about respectful and ethical behavior.

02:01:00

Thank you We are running over on time and so i'm going to cut the questions a little bit if that's acceptable with everyone um the one uh

02:01:14

The format of the questions i'll ask the questions Uh, the the person or the side to whom they are addressed has two minutes and then there's 30 seconds for the other side um if How about we do this one minute?

02:01:29

Two minutes is a long time two minutes was what was in the was what was how about we do one minute guys? I'm, i'm good get them done fast that way.

02:01:36

Okay, okay If if you're agreeable, there's one question that was asked more than any other and it starts with the negative side

02:01:43

So you can go back and forth. Is that acceptable? Uh people are dying to hear how do you explain the empty tomb?

02:01:51

Mr. Anderson? Joseph of arimathea moved his body um,

02:01:57

I So what happened is I believe that joseph of arimathea was a sympathizer of jesus

02:02:04

I believe joseph of arimathea Was um someone in power, um, the more status you have the closer your tombs

02:02:12

Um were to jerusalem. And so what would have happened to the crucified? um

02:02:19

You know those crucified would have been they would have been thrown into a mass grave Um, and joseph of arimathea did not want that done to jesus and so joseph of arimathea went out on a limb and he had

02:02:30

Um, jesus put in his own tomb. Like I think all of this is very historically credit credible um

02:02:38

As I alluded I did phd training in new testament studies and then joseph of arimathea had himself a very nice sabbath

02:02:46

And at the end of sabbath, which was saturday evening. He went and he asked his servants. Hey Could you move that body out of my family's tomb?

02:02:54

Thanks And I think his servants buried jesus somewhere and I would love to know where response and so the tomb was empty when you when um

02:03:04

His disciples found it like that is that is a valid tradition And fascinatingly mark, uh, 16 really quick mark 16 8 says the women didn't tell anyone

02:03:15

Anything because they were afraid so super interesting Uh for the affirmative, uh, do

02:03:22

I get a response i'm sorry Yes, i'm just getting old I would I would I would like to in 30 seconds

02:03:29

Of course, there's nothing historical about that at all. That's pure speculation You have jesus's own prophecies his own statements to his disciples, which they were shocked about What do you mean that far be it from you that this could ever happen to you?

02:03:43

You have all of these things all that has to be now be made up and fictionalized On the basis of pure speculation for which we have absolutely nothing in a historical sense to substantiate it that that's what you just heard

02:03:57

Okay question for the for the affirmative uh How do you respond to the charge that what you're offering is simply circular reasoning?

02:04:06

You're assuming your conclusion? Very good. Um any question about ultimate foundations has to be

02:04:16

Ultimate Right. So someone says I don't like the fact that you're appealing to god as the ultimate foundation

02:04:21

That seems very circular because that's the nature of an ultimate It's just that ultimate if something claims to be an ultimate and then appeals to something outside of itself to verify itself

02:04:30

That other thing becomes the ultimate. So for example, if I challenge the atheist, um, uh to give me a a reason

02:04:37

That reason is is necessary. What are they going to do? Start giving reasons for reason as necessary, but they haven't provided a foundation for rationality or reason in the first place

02:04:48

They're going in a circle but a vicious circle because they haven't provided an ultimate foundation for reason in the first place

02:04:53

And ultimate is just that philosophically speaking. It is ultimate if it appeals beyond itself

02:05:00

It is no longer the ultimate and scripture says That god is the ultimate the reference point the foundation and scripture says that if you deny him

02:05:08

If he denies revelation you become a fool and you cannot know Anything these men tonight showed that they don't know anything.

02:05:15

They have no justified true belief 30 second response I still hold on to my idea

02:05:29

My claim that I see nothing but a circular reasoning, you know, you're bringing in all these ideas but your basis is

02:05:36

Based on faith and from that we are deriving all these things go beyond that. Do you justify what you were saying?

02:05:42

Otherwise, it's arguing in a circle. Yeah in just a few seconds The bible was produced

02:05:48

By the same kind of conversational human thinking that this conversation is in every conversation is

02:05:56

Uh, we have a question from Um someone with cerebral palsy. He is in a wheelchair his question essentially is if uh

02:06:06

Society determines that he is a burden on society and he should be removed from that society

02:06:12

Does he have a right to say that society is wrong to kill him? He has absolute right to say that I don't know why any society

02:06:26

Unless it's totally barbaric Is going to say that yes society has a right to kill that person

02:06:32

So I don't see any reason why it should be in fact matter of debate it's understood and any rational humane

02:06:40

Person with a minimum sense of ethics would agree to that And the person who is most impacted has the most voice

02:06:53

Well, we heard it announced tonight the utilitarian standard that we should work for the the well -being and the happiness of the greatest number of people

02:07:00

If you use the utilitarian standard the greatest, uh happiness and greatest well -being for the most people

02:07:06

Then it is right when society says this person is a burden and removing our well -being and our happiness

02:07:12

It is right according to their standard to execute them Because it infringes on the well -being and happiness of the most people

02:07:19

If you are somebody that's seen as a parasite in a society like say for example the jews and hitler's, uh, germany

02:07:27

Then it is right according to that system to say we can execute you because you're a parasite or a burden

02:07:33

That's their standard That's the domain you are making a caricature of utilitarianism as you have been making caricature of the rational and the

02:07:42

Humanist perspective all to the all to the evening don't understand utilitarianism nor do you understand the ontology or virtue ethics?

02:07:50

Okay question for uh the affirmative Uh, why are most wars done in the name of god?

02:07:58

And they said including the wars by stalin hitler and other leaders of genocide as well Why would god require man to do this the scriptures say to not be violent jesus preach peace.

02:08:08

Please explain I'm, i'm not even sure exactly What the question is is saying because stalin wasn't wasn't engaging in a religious war

02:08:19

Well, and so it's this way atheism is religion So it was religious on that on that level because he had an ultimate ultimate authority but if you're if you're if you're talking about most wars, um

02:08:31

If you're talking about the political wars after the reformation or something like that Those were due to the relationship of church and state you had church and state unified together and so you had

02:08:42

Battles and wars related to to that that most definitely violated jesus's teaching

02:08:47

Uh, but so did the connection of those those things and the establishment of all sorts of systems of authority that scripture never ever provided for so, um

02:08:57

But putting that together with stalin's stuff leaves me wondering exactly what the the question

02:09:02

Is all really all about also if you indict christians in history for sinning in some way There must be some ultimate standard that they're violating right 30 second response.

02:09:12

Yeah, the question was A standard question against some religious presuppositions

02:09:18

If there is a kind loving all -powerful all -knowing god as the christians claim

02:09:24

Then why there is so much evil in this world including stalin mao and others for which the christians don't have any answer

02:09:34

Okay, uh, please please Please I know it's getting late, but our speakers very gracious to be here.

02:09:44

Please show respect to all Uh last question Uh is to both sides i'll give each side one one minute

02:09:53

If I find that my life, uh is no longer worth living. Is it wrong to kill myself?

02:09:58

And starting with the negative and we'll end with the affirmative So one one minute

02:10:05

Um, I work with suicidal people all the time. Um, I myself was suicidal for over 20 years

02:10:12

And i'm very grateful to be alive i'm very grateful to be here um

02:10:18

The problem with suicide is that it ends all possible versions of you

02:10:24

And I do believe like I work in hospice. I work in people. I work with people who wonder why they're still alive

02:10:32

And I do believe that I am supportive of death with dignity Um, so I do believe that for someone who is in pain and suffering and cannot imagine any possible better version

02:10:47

That yes, that is defensible now that said we need so much more support

02:10:54

Like I hope I I look forward to working with military veterans and others We need to support people as much as possible so that that is not the best option for them

02:11:04

And one minute from the uh for the positive you hear it again we need to we ought to human beings

02:11:11

Uh, they matter they're they're worthy. Do you see the image of god pouring out of jared tonight?

02:11:16

I love it It's delightful and it militates against everything. He believes fundamentally. Here's what he believes

02:11:22

There's no ultimate foundation for ethics. No ultimate meaning in life and no, you know free will for humans either in a darwinian evolutionary model

02:11:30

That's the perspective and I want to say if you want to lead somebody to purposeless meaningless and to suicide give them darwinianism

02:11:39

Give them darwinianism. There's no meaning. There's no purpose. You have no value Nothing you are in a cosmos that doesn't care about you

02:11:46

I can't think of a better system to lead somebody to suicide than that In the christian worldview.

02:11:51

It is absolutely wrong to kill yourself Acting like you have no value no meaning and no purpose because you fundamentally do and you can't escape it

02:12:01

You are in the image of god You are made to glorify god and to enjoy him forever

02:12:06

The problem is sin and the solution is jesus The only way to heal the heart of a person who is who is determined to commit suicide is to give them

02:12:16

The gospel and connect them to the grace of god and jesus christ. Pastor durbin Sound like a broken album