Jewish Christian Responds to Ben Shapiro and Michael Shermer | Rapp Report Weekly 0020 | Striving for Eternity

Why Ben Shapiro’s View of the Afterlife Needs Scripture

All right, so we are going to deal with some, well, a very, very popular person in political realms who said something about, well, why he doesn't accept Jesus as the Messiah. I think I'm going to disagree with him.

Just a thought.

Welcome to The Rap Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church,.

Go to strivingforeternity .org. All right, so we are back with another.

Rap Report. Thanks for joining with us. We've got our regular crew here. And before we get too far in, we like to try to let folks know about other podcasts, other things. And before we go too far, we got Vincent and John here.

And I think there is some news. Is it true? Is it true?

Is the council finally back? I can either confirm or deny that.

I can confirm it. You guys started out, you're doing a lot of evangelism, a lot of reaching out to cults and things like that, different religions. But now you guys, at some point, started to do podcasting and getting a bunch of guys getting together, discussing topics.

You've kind of been in hiatus for a long time, but is the council back in session?

It is. Yeah, we had a lot of life happening with a lot of members, so we kind of had to back off for a while. But it looks like we're getting together. We got a lot of shows planned and.

Hopefully we'll be able to regularly record them. And so right now, it's not in a podcast format,.

But you guys post it. We have a website, spirited-tech .com. Slash C-O-G, capital C,.

Capital O, capital G. Put a link in the show notes. The council, when it was in a podcast form, and maybe it'll get there again, was pretty informative, a lot of good discussion. You'd end up talking to atheists, kind of like Matt Slick and I did once when we were used to do a show together, where you get atheists that would argue like this.

This will bring you back, John,.

If you remember this one. You said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and.

You said it doesn't apply. It's not true. That statement would be either true or false. So is.

It true that I'm talking to you? Is it true? That is a true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist? Well, I mean, babies exist. Babies exist. Babies exist.

Is that true or is it not the case that it's true? I mean, if you want to go down, if you.

Were very strict about it, I would be skeptical about it. Okay, we're done talking.

That was a great conversation that we had. John, we had many of the members of the council on that day and that was when you kind of lost it when a guy couldn't even admit that babies exist.

The ridiculousness, the absurdity of what some atheists will go through to deny God.

Yeah, it's amazing what an atheist will argue because they want to suppress the truth. And so if folks, I would encourage you to go out. We'll have the link in the show notes for the council. A lot of good content out there.

And so that's something we're going to recommend. Once in a while, you're listening to a podcast and sometimes you hear things and you hear things from other podcasters and all of a sudden you go, wait a minute, I think I know what they're talking about.

Well, I was listening to a podcast and well, this is what I heard.

Okay, I am very sorry that I called you a loser. Please forgive me. This is Wretched Radio. I've been informed by the powers that be, meaning by conscience, that probably wasn't, I wasn't intending to say you're like, you know, pathetic loser, but you lost because you didn't win the Ray Comfort book, Way of the Master, which is a student training guide for evangelism.

Youth pastor might want to use it. Train your kids. And I suspect some of them might just get saved in the process. We could all use some training on evangelism. You didn't win that, but you could win these books, which I hold in my hands.

Forward by Phil Johnson. Don't forget, you can hear Phil Johnson on Too Wretched for Radio and you can hear him at Grace Life Pulpit. Magnificent preaching. Absolutely magnificent. The book is written by one Andrew R. Rappaport.

I did not know this about Andrew. He was Jewish. I mean, he, you know, still is Jewish ethnically, but now he's a believer, pastor, and a good writer. The first book is called What Do We Believe? A Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith.

It's just very basic stuff. New believers need this. Frankly, we need reminders on these things. We need to be going back and remembering the basics of the faith and not graduating from them like, I already got the whole omnipotence thing.

No, no, keep studying it. Excellent book for that creation of man, the nature of God, the nature of human beings, justification, propitiation, grace alone. It's called What Do We Believe? A Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith.

I do believe you can get it at Striving for Eternity Ministries, strivingforeternity .org. Send me an email saying, I'd like this book, and I will send it to you for free, and then you won't be a loser anymore.

I'm sorry, I wasn't supposed to. That was much better. Second one. But by making the call for people to try to win the book, then you're creating more losers. You then are the source of the loser. Joey, look, if you want to look at the cup as being half empty, knock yourself out.

I prefer to say there's now going to be two winners. What Do They Believe? A Systematic Theology of Major Western Religions by Andrew Rappaport. This one isn't as good because, well, the forward wasn't written by Phil Johnson.

Nevertheless, it covers the basics, and the formula is really important. When you study a world religion, if you look, if you want to go way down, down, deep, deep, deep to understand that religion, you can do that.

But if you remember some of the basics, like, okay, what is their source of authority? Where do they get this stuff? Who wrote it? And so the first chapter in this book is about Judaism. Where do they get their authority?

The Torah, the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Talmud, rabbinic law. In other words, lots of sources. What do they believe about God? What do they believe about Jesus Christ? What do they believe about sin?

In other words, man. What do they believe about salvation? That's really all you need to know about every major religion. And you kind of, it's like, okay, I got it. And then you're reminded that Christianity just stands so alone.

Everything else, everything else is workspace. Everything else, including aberrant forms of Christianity always works because that's man's, that's just our bent. I'll do this. I'll get the job done. Give me credit because it's me.

And so every religion that isn't Christianity has that type of system, except for biblical Christianity, grace alone, faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. If you'd like this book, what do they believe? A systematic theology of major Western religions.

It would be our delight to send these books to you for free. You winner,.

You. All right. So I was surprised when all of a sudden I was listening to retro radio and heard that. And you can get those, both those books at strivingforeternity .org. The guys that are over at the growth project radio were talking about my books.

And I think they captured it that there's a lot of people who write theology at a very high level and not too many people that are writing it the way I'm trying to do it for everybody. So that we have people who come into church and do not want to read something as thick as John MacArthur's biblical doctrine or Wayne Grudem's systematic theology.

It's scary. And I wanted something that could be used in a Sunday school class, something that could be used in small groups to teach theology to everyone. And so I, well, I do use some of the big theological words, but I define them.

And we will be having some news about what do they believe soon. Coming soon, I'm going to have an announcement about that book that will be, oh, maybe a month away. Well, shall we say. So be looking for that.

Be listening to the rap report. By the way, are you subscribed to the rap report? Are you like just listening to this the first time and going, well, okay, Hey, this is pretty cool. But like I want to listen every week.

You can actually subscribe to this podcast every week. You can go to whatever app you have that listens for podcasts and just search for rap report. That's with two Ps, rap report and subscribe. You could share it with your friends.

We would love that. You can also write some reviews for us in iTunes. There is a link in the show notes to where you could do that. So what I'd like to do is to, well, I want to play a video for us and I'd like us to go through that.

And well, I have a funny feeling that we're going to have a little bit, just a little bit of discussion that is going to come out of this. So this is why Ben Shapiro does not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

And so we want to play this. We're going to talk through this. Obviously, just for the record, as you heard earlier that Todd had mentioned, I am from a Jewish background. I'm not a token Jewish person or fake Jewish person.

I actually was Bar Mitzvahed. I was in Hebrew school from the age of five to the age of about 15. So I gave up Hebrew basically like most of my friends as soon as I could and didn't have to learn it anymore and study it anymore.

But I'm saying that to say I'm not someone who just had a Jewish family, but didn't actually practice. We practiced. Well, my father was raised Orthodox, so was my mother. We eventually became conservative, which for folks who don't know conservative is actually liberal.

And then we ended up going full on Reformed, which is super liberal. So I actually went through kind of all three stages of Judaism. But I'm saying that to say this, that I'm not trying to make a false appeal to authority as we go through this.

I don't want it to seem like I'm saying that, oh, I'm Jewish. I can speak as an authority on everything on Judaism. I don't study Judaism as much as Ben Shapiro does, for the record. I did write a book, What Do They Believe?, and I did cover Judaism, but I don't study it like Ben Shapiro does.

And quite frankly, Ben Shapiro doesn't study Christianity like I do. And so he would be a better expert in many areas when it comes to Judaism. However, there's some things he's going to say that we're probably going to take issue.

With. So let's play this and see how far we get. I was curious, by the way, that the ancient Jews,.

You don't go anywhere after your death, right? Yeah, the idea of the afterlife is a pretty modern invention in Judaism. Okay. We only got nine seconds in. And by the way, for the record,.

I'm playing this at 1 .25 speed just for folks to realize, sped up a little bit so we get through it. But he said this is a modern view in Judaism, right? Well, there's a couple of words for what we would call hell in Judaism.

And one of them that is used early on is called Sheol, the place of the dead. How early is that? That's as early as Genesis 37, 35. If this is a modern day thing, Ben, it's used pretty early, like in the very first book of the Bible, in the book of Genesis.

So I don't think it's all that modern. Now, we're not going to have the time to go into a full discussion of how Sheol, how Hinnom or sometimes Gehenna is referring to an eternal place of torment. We're going to get through some of it.

I can't flesh that completely out in one podcast. But as we look through what Sheol is, how it's described, and when you look through Gehenna, how it's described, we see that it is a place that is a place of punishment and it is a place, I'm going to argue, that is eternal.

Where do we see that it is eternal? Well, I am going to see that in Daniel 12, verse 2. Daniel 12, verse 2 says,. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt.

So what you see in Daniel 2 is two groups of people, the people who sleep, that's a reference to death. Those who are dead are grouped into two different groups of people, some having eternal life. The others that have an eternal life or an everlasting life, the others have an everlasting contempt.

So what you have when you do interpretation, you have two things being compared to each other. Some are in one category, some are in the other. The everlasting is in the same context. So if everlasting life means that you have life everlasting without death, without an end, then that contempt that is referred to here is likewise everlasting.

You can't separate those two. Now, Ben is going to say that that is from a later prophet. He's going to say that in a sec. But when he says this is an early notion, well, it's as early as Moses, which is pretty much as early as the law because that's where we got the law from Moses.

So here you have even before Moses because Moses is the one to write it down. But in Genesis 37, when it speaks of Sheol, this is before Moses' time. So this is back in the time with Joseph and his brothers.

So that's the reality that you have here. This is not something.

That's later. So Ben, please continue. It really only crops up, historically speaking, a little bit in the prophets and it's usually the late prophets. And it's really maybe as a response to early Christianity or Greek thought.

So let's deal with that. There's a lot right there that he said. Now,.

He's just said, let me just put this out there for Ben Shapiro. If Ben Shapiro would like to come on to our program and have a discussion on this, not a debate, I'm not interested in having a debate over this.

But if you want to come on and discuss this, look, you study Judaism way more than I do. I'd value the insight you'd have. It wouldn't be a contentious thing like he has in the political realm. In politics, he has a lot of debates and he's an excellent debater.

In debate tactics, he'd do well. But Ben, if you would want to come on and discuss it, I'd be happy to discuss these in way more detail with you. I think it'd be very edifying to many people on both sides of our camp, whether Christian or non or Jewish.

Now, here's the thing. He said that much of this was in the later prophets. And some of it, let me rewind this because this becomes something I don't know that he picked up on that he said this was a response to Christianity and Greek thought.

Maybe as a simple thing, the Old Testament canon was closed about 400 years before Christ. There were no Christians until after Christ died, which was about 33 A .D. or A .C .E. if you want to do a Jewish way of reckoning the time after the common error.

And so what you'd have is at least about probably 35, maybe 40 A .C .E. is where you first have the word Christian showing up. And so when he says this may have been a response, well, if it's showing up in the prophets, it's absolutely not a response to Christianity in any way.

It can't be because Christians didn't exist then. There were no Christians at the time of the writing of the prophets. And so when he says that the prophets wrote this, maybe in a response to early Christianity, I think what he may be doing is and I'm going to give the benefit of doubt, he might be referring to the Talmud.

The Talmud was being written and is a response to early Christianity. And we do see, I think, in the Talmud some changes in the view of hell and what happens after a person dies. And what you end up seeing in the Talmud is some changes that could have been a response to Christianity.

But when he says the later writings, the later prophets, well, Daniel would be a later prophet. I'll agree with that. I've quoted Daniel 12 and that's a later prophet. He's probably about 500 B .C .E. if you want to before the common era.

And so I could agree with that and say that's one of the later ones. Isaiah is one of the earlier ones, about 750 B .C. And this is what he says about the end time, where people go afterwards. And he says in Isaiah 66 verse 24, and they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who rebelled against me for their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched and they shall be an abomination of all flesh.

So what you end up seeing there is you see that he's saying, Isaiah, that this is eternal. John, you had a question.

I actually just want to say for listeners, what exactly is the Talmud? Kind of a brief.

Idea of what that is. Good point. Some people have not read my book, What Do They Believe? And they don't know what the Talmud is. Shameless plug. I admit it. The Talmud is a Jewish document that is written by rabbis.

And in Judaism, you have a couple of different authorities. You have the written authority. We often think of it as the Old Testament. It'd be the Tanakh. And the Tanakh is basically what we would call as Christians, the Old Testament.

But more than that, you also have an oral law and that's called the Midrash. You have a lot of mysticism in there, but the belief is that there was this written law given to Moses and an oral law given to Moses and eventually got written down.

Now, both of them have a commentary. The commentary for the oral law or Midrash is called the Mishnah. That's a commentary that is used to explain the oral law. And then you have the Talmud. And the Talmud would be this commentary that we have from the rabbis explaining what the law means.

And it was written over a period of about 700 years by numerous scholars. Now, one of the things, there's actually two Talmuds. In case people want to know, there's a Palestinian one and a Babylonian one.

They were composed shortly before the time of Christ till about 400 or 500 years after Christ. And one of the things that's important to know is that the Talmud is a redacted work. What does that mean?

It means that Rabbi Ben Shapiro may come along and write, I don't think he's a rabbi, but just for the example, Rabbi Ben Shapiro comes along and he writes about 10 pages on a topic. I come along, Rabbi Andrew and I take his 10 pages.

I summarize them into maybe five pages. I write three more pages of my own. Rabbi John over here, he comes along, he takes what Rabbi Ben said, condenses that down to maybe three pages. He takes what I said, condenses it down to two pages.

He writes 12 pages of his own because he thinks his words are more important. Rabbi Vincent over there comes along and does some more condensing, takes Rabbi Ben down to one or two pages, takes me to a Rabbi John realized what Rabbi John really wasn't saying anything of much value anyway.

So, all those pages he did got into just two paragraphs. And then he goes off and adds another couple of pages. That's what a redacted work is. So, now what that means though is that when you do stuff like that, it's the later writings, the later editions that you're going to have.

In an ancient work, you lose some of those earlier ones. This becomes an authority. And really, when we look at what Orthodox Judaism believes today, much of it is really based on Talmud, which is what is sometimes referred to as rabbinic law.

And so, that's going to be an important thing. This is where most Jewish people today or Orthodox Jewish people are going to find their authority. And I'm saying Orthodox for a reason. People who, and I'm sure that Ben Shapiro would end up agreeing that people who are not Orthodox are not really, they're not seeking to follow this Jewish religion as much.

Even when we were conservative, we were going to synagogue, the kids at least would go weekly. We always went on the high holy days, but it's kind of in Christianity. Think about as the CNE Christians, Christmas Easter Christians, those Christians that show up twice a year for Christmas and resurrection Sunday.

That's the only time you see them in church and that's about it. So, that's sort of what many Orthodox Jewish people would think of for conservative and reformed Jewish people. So, and I'm saying that to understand that this may be the way that Ben Shapiro would look at my upbringing and not take me as serious.

I fully understand. That's why I invite him on to come in and discuss these things so that we can, if he feels that I'm wrong, hey, let's discuss that. I think it would be beneficial for both the Jewish and Christian communities.

So, when he says about the later prophets in response to Christianity, I don't think that's a good and valid argument. One, as I said, the Talmud writers would be a response to early Christianity, but not the prophets.

I'm going to mark that up as a misspeak. I think that anyone who knows Ben Shapiro knows he's a highly intelligent individual, but I don't know if this, this is a clip from an interview. I don't know the full interview and I don't know what the context was.

Maybe this caught him off guard and he wasn't ready for it. So, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt on something like that and say that he probably was thinking of the Talmud, but none of the prophets early or later would have been responding to Christianity in any way because the canon of the Old Testament was closed 400 years before there were Christians.

The point I do want to make though, is that many of the prophets and early writers speak of both Sheol and Gehenna. One of the books that's thought to be the first book of the Bible is the book of Job and he mentions it several times.

In fact, in the Old Testament, Gehenna or Hinnom and Sheol are mentioned 78 times in 74 different verses. Just to keep that in mind, there is a number of passages that are referring to this. So, I just don't want it to be a thing where, oh, it's just the older prophets, the later prophets.

This was something that was spoken about early and it takes some development to see that Sheol is a place not just of the dead, but as Isaiah would say, that this was the dead for eternity, that this was an everlasting death.

Now, here'd be the thing. Let's work through this. If what Ben is saying, you have a case that this is a later development, that people are responding to the Christian version of an eternal punishment.

If he is saying that in the early writings, like in Genesis, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 2 Chronicles, Nehemiah, Job, throughout Psalms. I mean, there's a ton of passages in Psalms.

Proverbs. Then you have Ecclesiastes, Isaiah. We could go on. All these books are mentioning Sheol and Gehenna. Now, if you're going to argue that it used to be that the view that this is something just in the later, then what you'd be saying is that in the early years, the prophets said that this was something that was not a eternal thing.

But then by the time of Isaiah and Daniel, it's viewed as eternal. Well, one, I don't think that'd be a good argument against Christianity as he's arguing that this is a later edition. This is a later edition than in God's word.

It is God who wrote the book of Daniel through Daniel and says that there's eternal life and eternal contempt. That's God's words. That's not my words. That's not someone else's words. That's God's words.

Isaiah, this is God saying that this will be a fire that shall not be quenched, that he's describing as shall not die. He's making it clear this is everlasting, as Daniel says. So, to say that it's a later response, this is throughout the Bible.

So, he's emphasizing that she holds the place of the dead, but this.

Death doesn't stop. It doesn't end. Let's continue. In the Bible itself, there's no reference in the Torah. There's no reference to the afterlife. Okay. In the Torah, there is no reference to.

The afterlife. I've already mentioned that Genesis 37, 35, Genesis 42, 38, Genesis 44, 29, Genesis 44, 31, Numbers 16, 30, Numbers 16, 33, Deuteronomy 32, 22. Those passages all refer to Sheol. And so, when you say that there's no references in the Torah, there are seven references in the Torah.

I don't want to say that he is wrong. I want to say that he's going to argue, if we were to have a discussion, he would probably argue that Sheol is just a reference to a place of the dead and not a place of eternal death.

But you can't take those passages and then ignore what the prophets say when they refer to this as this death as being an eternal place. So, it is mentioned in the Torah. Hell is not. I'll grant you that because that's something you're going to see in a different language.

It's not in the Hebrew. And so, we wouldn't argue that way. But the term Sheol and Gehenna are terms that we would see in the Old Testament in the Hebrew and that are described as a place of death. And how is it described afterwards throughout?

And I try to just focus on these two passages for a simple reason, Daniel 12 .2 and Isaiah 66 .24, for a very simple reason. I don't want to give you tons of passages and confuse you. You could look just those two up.

Because they're clear enough. John? Yeah. He's just said, though, that there is no afterlife. You know, I do a word search of heaven in the Old Testament and it's all over the place. I mean, what? It's ridiculous that he's saying that there's no afterlife.

What does a Jewish believer have to look forward to then? Well, I think and I could be wrong. I don't want.

To speak for Ben Shapiro, but I will take the defense for him and say that I think what he would be saying is that he's speaking of the afterlife specifically of those that are not believers, not Jewish people.

I think that the common understanding in Judaism is that there is for the Jewish person, for sure, a world to come. And that's how it's usually referred to in the Talmud, is the world to come. They do see a Gehenna that is for a punishment.

There's some different discussions within the Talmud, but I think what he's referring to there is an eternal. I think he may have, again, I don't have the full context of this interview. I'm sure the interview went more than five minutes, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't prepped for this.

And that's why I'd say, hey, come on, prep for it. Let's discuss and do this in a manner where you can better represent the position you have, because I understand that he's, or at least I'm assuming he's not fully ready for that.

And maybe he was and I'm wrong, but I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt until I hear otherwise. So let's keep going. We're only 30 seconds in and five minutes to go.

It happens after the death of your body. So I mean, I only have suspicion because again, unverifiable. My suspicion is that if there's who exists outside of time and space and that what animates me is that I'm made in the image of God and that what animates my capacity is that I'm in the image of God, that I reunify with God.

Basically, the traditional Jewish take on this has been that there's a cleansing process. Judaism doesn't believe in eternal hell. So it's instead this idea that there's a cleansing process for your soul, the part that you got from God, that spark of life that you got from God, you've schmutzed it up while you're alive.

And now there's a cleansing process. And that's what hell is sort of. And then you are reunited with God and you have greater understanding. The idea of me being a distinct percentage outside of my body, I think, is a difficult one.

So that's my own personal. So you don't think you're physically resurrected into heaven with God? No. I think that it's something like a soul or energy or consciousness or something. Yes. Yes.

A form like an Aquinas form. Right. Yes. I think that those are actually two different things in Judaism as well. Like the idea of which is the idea of resurrection of the dead. That's a different idea than what happens after you die.

Right. It's the idea that eventually a messiah comes that will all be resurrected back in our physical bodies at a certain point, which, you know, honestly, given the nature of how science is moving and the possibilities of cloning is actually less crazy than it than it sounded probably a couple of.

Thousand years ago. Yeah. I debunked most of the modern, you know, the singularities. I mean, we're going to upload everybody. This is not going to happen. No, definitely. That's good.

That's good to know, because I just feel like the computer would be really weird inside a computer.

Or that we're living in a computer now, but there's no buffering. Or, you know,.

Little pixels that are going off every so often staring off into space. It's because I want to.

The Resurrection, the Soul, and the Limits of Human Reason

First off, he's giving his own opinion. Fine. That's good. It's good to have an opinion, but notice he didn't provide really this with the scriptures say this is where it's important. He's stating this.

We're going through what the scriptures are saying, and we could build the argument that there is an eternal life from scripture, that there is very clearly. And again, stick just to Daniel 12 too, because that's the only verse you need to see that there's clearly some who are going to awake.

He was talking about the resurrection, right? Well, many of those who sleep, those are the dead in the dust of the earth. Clearly they're sleeping where? Dust of the earth. They're dead. They're in the ground.

Shall awake. What is that? That is the resurrection. They awake some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. You have both. You don't have just the everlasting life. You have both clearly taught in the Bible, in God's word.

I don't know how to say this without seeming like I'm being very critical of Mr. Shapiro, but God disagrees with him. I will take God's word over the word of any man, any day.

Okay. First observation-wise, it seems like both of these guys have a very materialistic view of the body and what that means to be resurrected. The consciousness can be implanted into a computer and that would be weird.

It's a weird view that they have of this whole subject from my point of view. I want to say more, but I think I'll wait till later into the discussion.

On the issue, this first thing, he's going to now change into the topic that we're going to address, whether Jesus was Messiah. But on this, just to point out, I hope that it became clear through this that the scriptures are clear that there is an eternal life and death.

There is a life hereafter. After we die, we will continue to be conscious. Some of that's going to be with, as he said, with the knowledge of God, and we're going to be with him, but others are not. It's going to be described as a fire that can't be put out.

Let's continue with this interview. I'll.

Have the link for this in the show notes. My Christian friends and people that I debate on the resurrection, they have a whole series of arguments. If you just followed our reason, you would accept Jesus as your savior.

My answer to this is the great Jewish rabbis, who are smarter than you and I sitting here, they've gone through all these arguments. Why don't they accept Jesus?

Why don't you accept Jesus? That kills me because that's not how anyone's converted from our view, and that just kills me. A persuasive argument could be what converts someone.

Okay, so let's deal with that. The issue is that Christianity does not believe, what we would say, biblical Christianity would not believe that the world has an evidence problem, that someone can convince someone into the kingdom, that someone could give really good arguments and they're going to believe it.

We would argue that somebody has a spiritual problem, that they're an enemy of God, they rebel against God. Ben Shapiro mentioned the spark of life, and there is this view in Judaism that you have a spark of life that helps you really get salvation in a sense, and they're going to talk about the sin nature just as being an evil impulse.

Okay, so just keep that in mind, that that's the view. He doesn't have a view of a sin nature. In Christianity, we would view this as that we all, every single human being has a sin nature. We're enemies of God, we rebel against God, and we're fighting with God.

And as it says in Romans 1, speaking of God for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made, so that they are without excuse.