Submission: Should Wives Obey Their Husbands Like a Child Would Obey Their Parents?

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01:26

Welcome to Bible Bashed, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We are your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent?

01:43

Now we've had a lot of pushback from plenty of the episodes that we've put out over the last several weeks, and normally the pushback comes from pagans, from the unsaved, people who don't understand the

01:58

Bible, who don't recognize that there's a God that they should submit themselves to.

02:04

They want to rebel at every turn, so obviously they reject the things that we have to say that are coming from clear scripture references.

02:13

But I suspect that a topic like this, should wives submit to their husbands, should they obey their husbands,

02:21

I've seen plenty of times where even Christians push back against this idea. They get really riled up by this thought that women should actually be obeying their husbands.

02:31

And so, Tim, why don't we just start off by you explaining what the impulse is behind the wording of our title question, should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent?

02:44

Well, it is an outrageously offensive title as far as that goes.

02:52

Maybe we'll just comment on the obedience part in general. The idea of a wife obeying her husband is an idea that really is not a new idea.

03:02

The traditional wedding vows, as far as that is concerned, used to be phrased to include the idea of obedience.

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And so a bride would say, I take thee, husband, to be my wedded husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and health, to love, to cherish, and to obey, till death do us part, according to God's holy ordinance,

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I thereto give thee my troth, as far as it goes. Troth.

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Whatever that is. Whatever that is. That's the traditional wedding vows, as far as that goes.

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And that's vows we've used for a long time, for a long period of time. Now, the obedience part is the thing that's fallen out of fashion.

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And now, I think you have different types of people in the church. And so the pagans are obviously going to be offended by any idea of submission in general.

03:53

The idea of submission is a dirty word. Don't go there. Don't say that. But then the idea of obedience, now that's the kind of thing that does distinguish

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Christians who are broadly under what might be described as the complementarian camp or the patriarchy camp or whatever else.

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So the idea of obedience is an idea that's uniquely offensive, even to the type of Christian, to the vast majority of Christians who would consider themselves complementarian or who believe that there are biblical roles, who believe that a wife would submit to their husband.

04:31

Now, the problem is obviously that with the rise of a lot of the teaching on servant leadership and things like that, the idea of submission really is an idea that is not very clearly understood.

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And I would say for most Christians, the idea that a wife should submit to their husband, to the ones who believe that a wife should submit,

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I would say for most of them, the idea of submission functionally is this kind of arbitrary thing that God commands women.

05:02

He could have made men be the one who have to submit, but it's kind of like a tiebreaker scenario where if there's ever a tiebreaker, then

05:09

I guess the wife should follow her husband. So long as he's not asking her to do anything that's too difficult and she thinks it's reasonable and everything else, maybe let him have the tiebreaking vote because you're at a stalemate and all that.

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But then the corresponding kind of teaching that goes along with that is that functionally, and I can't tell you how many times

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I've heard pastors who would basically be saying that a husband should –

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I mean, they would never say it in exactly this way, but this is exactly what they're saying. I'm always nervous if I'm in a situation where my wife doesn't agree.

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So functionally, the idea of submission is just this mythical unicorn, white elephant kind of thing that should functionally never happen.

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So if you're leading well, your wife should always just willingly follow, and there should be never a situation where she staunchly disagrees with anything you say.

06:05

And so I would say the idea of submission is a very weak idea, but then the church historically has always understood submission to be in a lot of ways synonymous with obedience.

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And there's Bible verses that we'll talk about over the course of the podcast that deal with that kind of subject, particularly 1

06:24

Peter 3, that use the word obey in a very specific way as it relates to the wife. And so I think it's helpful to really reclaim this idea of obedience as it relates to what we're even talking about with submission.

06:37

And there's a lot of ideas that go with the broader category of submission or obedience that we really need to talk about.

06:44

And so basically, the short answer is the idea of submission is an idea that is very misunderstood, and obedience is a clear idea today.

06:55

I guess that's the nature of the kind of relationship we're talking about. Okay, so now that we've talked about why this is going to be probably pretty controversial, even for the confessing

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Christians who listen to our podcast, I can practically hear some of them screaming even now, no!

07:19

Well, basically. But I'll go ahead and ask you, what's the answer to this question?

07:25

Should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent? This is one of those questions that's asked in a way that is so outrageous, but then logically, when you actually think about what you're communicating, if you don't just emote, if you don't emote, then one of the things that you realize is that,

07:46

I mean, obedience is obedience, right? I mean, obedience is obedience. It doesn't matter who does the obedience, whether it's a servant to a master, whether it's a citizen to a king, whether it's a child to a parent, whether it's a wife to a husband.

08:03

The idea of obedience is an idea that – it's a concept that fits into many different types of relationships.

08:12

So, I mean, essentially, the idea of obedience, no matter what the kind of relationship is, is the idea, basically, do what you're told, right?

08:22

So when you think about it that way, to obey is for – with a person who is in an authority relationship where there's a person in authority over them, to obey is to do what this person who is in authority over you is telling you to do.

08:43

And so there's no difference, functionally, between how a citizen would obey a king or a wife would obey a husband or a children would obey a parent.

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There's no difference. Like, it's the same act. It just – there's different types of relationships that demand that, if that makes sense.

09:03

So the simple answer to the question is, well, obviously, yes, if the word obedience means anything, if that makes sense.

09:11

But then what's offensive about that is that instantaneously, what people hear is you're equating women with children or something.

09:22

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, well, no. I don't understand why your mind goes there.

09:30

I don't understand. And I think part of – what's happening is that something strange has happened when your mind goes there.

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You're saying a wife is a child. And a wife's relationship with her husband is a parent -child relationship.

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It's like, no, it's just there's a feature in a parent -child relationship that's also the same in a husband -wife relationship, one feature.

09:55

There's a lot of other things that make up the relationship to make a wife relationship with a husband totally different than a parent -child relationship.

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But as it relates to that one area of obedience, there's no different – I mean, there's no – it doesn't make sense.

10:14

So obedience is always the same. It's the same thing. Now, the reason I think why it's offensive is in part because I think when it comes right down to it,

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I think the idea that a wife should obey her husband is offensive, period. Do you understand what

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I mean? It's just an offensive idea because we're used to thinking of submission as something that's totally not obedience at all.

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And so I think the real offense is being taken because we don't actually like the idea of obedience in that period, if that makes sense.

10:48

Yeah. I remember back years ago, I had a job where I worked with a guy who was –

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I guess – I think he was National Guard Reserve, something like that, where he only had to go a few weeks out of the year for different training events or whatever they call them.

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And the rest of the year, he was basically just a normal U .S. citizen who could work a normal job.

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And I remember one time we had a conversation. He was a Christian, and we had a conversation about the relationships with our wives and how they worked.

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Like when it came down to application, how did we make decisions as different family units?

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And it's funny because I told him that the way that my wife and I do things is essentially

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I'm the one who's making the final decisions on not necessarily every single thing.

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Sometimes I delegate, but on most things, I'm the one making the final decision, and there is no, hey, let's compromise or we're not going to agree or do anything.

12:05

It's just I'm going to make this final decision, and I might hear what you have to say, but then it's ultimately up to me.

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And now keep in mind, I'm telling this to a guy who's from the military who understands this kind of relationship very well.

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I mean, his whole job is centered around authority structure. Obeying your commanding officer.

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Right, right. But then when I told him this about my wife and I, he just looked at me like I was a total idiot.

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And now, we're friends, and so he was totally nice and respectful, but he pushed back against what

12:44

I was saying and was essentially like, well, hey, I don't do that with my wife. I like to try and treat my wife as an equal, and I was basically just wondering, well, hey, why doesn't the military do it that way then if it's so wrong and seemingly like an evil thing to do to run your family that way?

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Why does the military do it? Are they evil? And there wasn't really a good response to that, but I just found it so interesting that this guy who is very familiar with it.

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Who understood authority. Yeah, and loved it, honestly. I mean, he loved that it was so succinct.

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You can make decisions very quickly. Efficient. You had to show respect to authority, and he really liked showing respect to authority when it came to the military, but then when it came to his own family unit, it was just a totally foreign concept to him.

13:42

Well, we live in the matriarchy right now. We live in a matriarchal society, so the rules are changed, but this word obey, just look it up.

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The word obey means to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of.

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What I'm trying to say is that's true of any authority relationship, to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of.

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A wife has to obey her husband to comply with or follow the commands, just like a child would have to obey a parent, just like a cadet would have to obey their commanding officer to comply with and follow the commands, restrictions.

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The thing is, obedience is obedience. It's obedience, right? It is what it is. That's what the concept means.

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That's what the word means. The question is, is that an appropriate word to use for a husband -wife relationship?

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The question is not, is that comparison between a husband and wife and a parent and child exact in every way?

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The question is, is the word obedience the same in any authority relationship? I think the problem is we live in a

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Christian culture right now that has defined submission in such an empty way that it feels like a wife should be doing something very different than obedience.

15:12

That's the problem. The word's offensive. It's the word, right? But the concept is, isn't this true of any authority relationship, yes or no?

15:21

Then is a husband and wife an authority relationship? Are there features of authority relationships that are parallel across all the different relationships, right?

15:32

Right. If that makes sense. Right. Just think about it this way, Harrison. Ask the question this way.

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Should a cadet obey a commanding officer like a citizen should obey a king?

15:48

Yes. But it doesn't feel near as offensive, does it? No. Why? I think it's just culturally acceptable.

15:59

Right. But in those two comparisons, are they the same relationship like a citizen to a king as a cadet?

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No. There's differences, but what's the same is the obedience part, right?

16:12

Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. You should be able to do that with any type of authority relationship out there and make the comparisons without all the offense if you actually understand there's something parallel in each one.

16:27

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. Okay. All right. Go for it. So, okay.

16:34

Maybe to the surprise of some of the people listening, the answer is actually yes, wives should obey their husbands like a child would obey their parent.

16:48

So, I know you kind of addressed this a little bit in the opening question, why the impulse behind the wording of this title question, but could you just explain a little more why exactly it is that wives should be obeying their husbands?

17:10

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a variety of reasons. I mean, the Bible teaches it in various ways.

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So, there's biblical passages, like direct biblical passages.

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One of them would be 1 Peter 3, which basically uses that sort of language. So, there's that.

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Are you asking for biblical evidence or are you asking for God's purpose behind the biblical evidence?

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Does that make sense? I want to talk about both, but for right now I'm just asking you why should wives obey their husbands from a biblical perspective?

17:51

Like, are there specific commands? Are we just kind of making inferences based on things that are said?

17:57

Yeah, the biblical evidence then for that. Yeah. Well, I think 1 Peter 3 is a good, a great place to go that just talks about this very thing.

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So, 1 Peter 3 says, likewise, wives, 1 Peter 3, 1, likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, notice how husbands obey too, right?

18:19

Like, but that doesn't, you know, no one seems to get offended. Are you saying husbands are actually wives?

18:29

Obviously. Wait, isn't it funny though? I mean, like, everyone obeys

18:34

God and everyone obeys his word and then none of us get all indignant about it, right, as far as that goes.

18:40

But, so obedience, I mean, like obedience is a good thing. Like, the idea of obedience is a good thing and any kind of authority relationship in the

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Bible is going to entail obedience. Like, that's just the way it works, you know.

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But, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of your wife.

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Now, notice how it starts with this, likewise, wives, be subject. This be subject language, to be subject is to be an individual who is placed under the authority or control of someone.

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It's the language of kingship, if that makes sense. So, when you think about what's happening there, you have, we're used to talking about the idea of submission, but in 1

19:25

Peter, you have a Greek word that's basically hupotasomenoi, or hupotasomenoi. Of course, yes.

19:31

Yes, yes. I think we're all very familiar with that word. You should be, yes, yes. Hupotasomenoi.

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Now, that's a word, basically, in this context, that basically is being translated as be subject, meaning,

19:43

I mean, it's king language. It's king language. A subject is an individual who is placed under the authority of an authority figure, right?

19:53

So, are you telling me that when I see the people on Twitter using slang saying, hey, guys, you need to find yourself a woman who treats you like a king, they're actually recommending a biblical idea to their friends without realizing it?

20:15

This may be one of those, this they said not of their own doing, you know, but they...

20:24

A broken clock is right at least twice a day, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Little did they know that they spoke better than they knew there, but yeah.

20:34

No, I mean, you have king language there. You have king language there.

20:40

So, even some do not obey the word, they may be one without a word by the conduct of your wife.

20:46

Now, if you go down to verse 5, it says, basically the argument there is, you know, don't just be fixated on your external appearance, but then, you know, cultivate godly traits that are going to be examples of true beauty, essentially.

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And then verse 5 says, this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, like by adorning themselves with good character.

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But notice what it says. It says, this is how they adorned themselves by the same word, hupotasamenai.

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They're being subject to their husbands or submitting to their own husbands, right? Then notice what it says.

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It says, as Sarah... So, what does it mean to submit to their own husbands? What does it mean to adorn themselves with godly characteristics?

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As Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord, and you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

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So, the example of godliness in the Old Testament that women, you know, under the

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New Covenant should be aspiring towards is the example of Sarah, who basically obeyed Abraham, calling him

21:47

Lord, basically recognizing that he's a king over her, as far as that sense, and obeying him.

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So, I mean, I think that right there in the verse, there is a biblical instruction that basically says we should be like Sarah who obeyed

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Abraham. And, like, what does it mean to, you know, be subject to your husband? It means to obey him, and that's what it says.

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So, I mean, I think you have a command there that's, like, a very direct example of the

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Old Testament that women are told to follow. Do not let your adorning be merely external, but, you know, the hidden and perishable beauty, and the way to get that is to follow

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Sarah's example of obedience. It's right there. But, I mean, just, you know, thinking about what else the

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Bible says, I mean, any relationship in the Bible that is an authority relationship always has this obedience element to it.

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That's how authority relationships work. So, I mean, in any authority relationship, if there's any authority, so God's in authority over us, what do we do?

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We obey him, right? God's word's authority over us, what do we do? We obey it, right? You remember the, what is that guy's name?

23:06

Let's see, I'm going to look it up. The guy who basically asked

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Jesus, the guy who asked Jesus to heal a servant from a distance, basically. He says,

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I also am a man under authority, essentially, is what he's saying. Oh, the Roman centurion? Yeah, yeah, the centurion, yeah.

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He says, I also, he basically says, I understand authority, I'm a man also under authority, give or take, right?

23:28

Right. And then he says, I tell one man to go do this, and he does it, right?

23:34

And I tell another man to come, and he comes, right? So he says, I'm a man who understands authority, I tell people to do things, and they obey my instruction, essentially, right?

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So you don't even have to go see my servant, you can just tell the sickness to leave, essentially, and it will leave because you have authority over it, right?

23:52

Right. That's his point. And Jesus says, I haven't seen such great faith in Israel and all that, right?

23:58

Because the guy understood authority, but that's how authority relationships work, and so that's, so you have a direct passage like this, but that's just, that's the way authority relationships work every time, you know?

24:07

Right. So it's just, it is what it is. It's just how authority relationships work. Okay, so my follow -up question now is what you thought

24:14

I was asking at first, or I was wondering if I was asking, why does God, so we know that God does command women to obey their husbands, just explain it.

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Or if they don't, they should start. Why exactly does

24:33

God give this command? I mean, couldn't it just as easily have been that God said, you know, hey, women, actually, your husbands need to obey you.

24:43

Why exactly is it set up this way where wives are meant to obey their husbands?

24:50

You know, Harrison, that's a pretty interesting question, and it's the kind of question that really does divide the complementarian camps into different positions as far as that goes.

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And so it's, there have been over the past few years what many have described as the complementarian debates, essentially.

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And complementarianism as a position is basically just the idea that God made husbands and wives to be complements to each other.

25:23

And in some sense, it's kind of like a marketing scheme that, you know, it used to be that we talked about the patriarchy and all that, right?

25:31

So feminism came along, and now everyone wants to smash the patriarchy, and, you know, the patriarchy has gotten a bad rap, and, you know, that's just all about, you know, wife spanking abusers and all that.

25:41

Yeah, clearly. So, you know, the guys at CBMW, you know, they wanted to rebrand and call themselves complementarians.

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It's kind of like a move, kind of like the pro -life movement where you want to be, state your position in more of a neutral, non -offensive kind of way, right?

26:00

And so what happened was you had a lot of people who basically understood that male and female are complements to each other, and then they have different roles, and, you know, submission in that kind of vernacular was fine.

26:12

But then the problem was there's been, like, many people who've adopted that label of complementarian, even someone like Beth Moore.

26:19

Is she really? Calling herself a complementarian. As egalitarian as you get, you know, like preaching on Sunday.

26:26

I would want to fall under that broad rubric of... I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, you have all sorts of people who basically, you know, basically complementarians took over, you know, all the major conferences and everything else.

26:40

That was the standard state of affairs. So everyone wants to say they're complementarian, you know, unless you're just, like, out in the, you know, crazy world or whatever.

26:50

But in, like, reform circles, you know, complementarianism was a thing, but then, like, the problem was,

26:55

I think maybe it was Piper who came along at some point, and he was basically trying to answer the question, essentially, like, should, you know, should women be, you know, bosses of men or, you know, rulers of men in terms of the political sphere or something like that, right?

27:17

And so his answer, and I can't remember specifically how he worded it, but his answer was essentially no.

27:24

And this outraged a lot of people. I mean, I remember when I was at Southern, Sarah Palin was running for vice president, and it was the oddest thing in the world to see, you know, the

27:33

Southern Seminary making an announcement on, you know, do you believe that wives should submit to their husbands?

27:39

Yes. Are you okay with Sarah Palin being a vice president of her country? Yes, you know?

27:45

And so what happened was there was this, these debates and this divide that started to happen over, like, individuals who thought, like, basically, this idea of wives submitting to or obeying their husbands.

27:59

No one would say obey because, you know, that sounds too, you know. It's too mean. Too mean, yeah.

28:04

Insulting and all that. Insulting. But the idea of, yeah, submission. Basically, you had two camps that were formed, and you had one camp which called themselves kind of soft complementarians and then one who were more, you know,

28:14

I guess hard or strict complementarians. But the soft complementarians basically treated the idea of submission as something that was purely irrational.

28:25

Meaning that there was functionally no reason why God would command men and women, women to submit to men other than it just had to pick one.

28:38

Like, he was just making an arbitrary decision. Yeah, it's a purely arbitrary choice. And so the soft complementarians went that way with it.

28:46

It's essentially, it's just a purely arbitrary choice. But then someone like John Piper was saying, well, no, I think that there are ontological, creational reasons, like ontological tied to someone's, like their being, like your makeup, your constitution.

28:59

There are reasons why God made, like God made men to lead, and he made women to follow.

29:07

And so, like, so then when he says, like, wives follow your husbands, and then he made, you know,

29:12

I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over men in church, like that's tied to their ontology, who they are, their creational makeup, as far as that goes there.

29:22

So it wasn't just some subjective choice. God uniquely designed men to be leaders, and he designed women to be followers.

29:29

And that shows up in the way that they're made, so that, you know, it wasn't just, like a command for the church and a command for the home, and then you get to the government sphere, and it's like, what do you do with, you know, or like employment in the secular workplace, you know.

29:41

It's like, well, you know, women are good leaders too, you know, kind of thing. It's like, well, no, God, so the two positions essentially divided in that kind of way.

29:53

you know, I, when I listened to the Southern Seminary group, you know, enthusiastically supporting

30:02

Sarah Palin, I just thought to myself, this is absurd. I mean, the Bible says that a nation's under judgment when women and children rule over it.

30:08

So, like, so, like, what are we doing? This is a shameful state of affairs.

30:14

This is embarrassing. This is humiliating. You know, like, why would that, I want my emotions tied to what the

30:20

Bible says. But then, functionally, the answer to your question is why, could God have done either way, right?

30:27

Yeah. I would say, no, I don't think, I think the Bible teaches that God made men uniquely to lead, and he made women uniquely to follow.

30:35

And there's a variety of passages that speak to this very thing. I mean, I think, you know, just to say something horribly more offensive than what

30:46

I've already said, you know, just, let's just take this episode and turn it into a, yeah, turn it into a dumpster fire of offense here.

30:54

But, I mean, look, like, there are times in the month where my wife goes crazy. You know, so, every man knows exactly what

31:03

I'm talking about. I mean, you know, she's obviously much more sanctified than she was at the beginning of her marriage related to that.

31:11

I mean, there are, you know, there are times of the month where, like, obviously, women, you know, are not exactly sane.

31:18

You know? They're hypersensitive, they're hyper -emotional. I mean, but can you imagine, like, a leader, like a world leader with nuclear codes or whatever who has, like, a rough time of the month and, you know, like, wants to push the nuclear codes because the other country was, you know, horribly offensive to them and, you know, refuses to listen to what they have to say and, you know, like,

31:41

I mean, it's just, like, God didn't make women to lead. I'm sorry. Like, He didn't. I mean, like, creation itself bears witness to that very fact and, you know, like,

31:49

I don't have any times of the month I don't where I'm tempted towards insanity. I don't. You know? Like, I don't.

31:56

And I counseled enough women to know that this is, this is a feature. It's not a glitch, you know? And now, that doesn't mean that a woman has no, no responsibility to control her emotions, you know, during that, you know, cycle of the moon and all that and that she's just allowed to emote and everything else and, you know,

32:17

I think that husbands who just, like, let their wives do that, they get, like, they get what they subsidize, essentially, and it gets worse.

32:27

Uh, but I think mature and, all the mature and godly women, my wife included, that I know, you know, they know that there are temptations that way and they don't pretend like they're, there's not there.

32:37

and, and you have conversations, like, if you're a mature couple who's not just, you know, playing the feminist game, you have conversations to say, hey, where are we at, you know, like, what's going on, like, you're acting weird, you seem like you're crying for no reason a lot, like, what's going on, you know?

32:51

It's like, how dare you, you know, ask if that's my, you know, it's like, I need to know, you know, I need to know what

32:58

I'm looking at here, right? Uh, in order to, uh, make sense of what's going on and so, yes,

33:04

I mean, I think it's, it's just, it's just obvious, uh, uh, for just, you know, biological reasons that God has made men, uh, to lead.

33:12

Women often, uh, are much more sensitive than men and there's often, there's always, uh, there's often, there's these situations, there's a lot of situations that, um, that, uh,

33:21

God's put men in where men, um, have to make decisions that are hard, you know?

33:27

So, because we live in a matriarchal society right now, that, that explains a lot of the reaction to COVID, I mean, like, if you look around the world, we've, we've turned into a bunch of, uh, you know, helicopter moms and it's just insane.

33:39

It's just like, you know, like, we've turned into the kind of society that we can't, um, bear to risk even like, you know, a .01

33:47

% chance of death, right? Right, right. I mean, I mean, that's insane. That, that's not masculine, that's not manly, that's not like sane, like, right?

33:57

And so, like, but that's what happens when you, you're in a matriarchal society, is that if you prioritize health and safety above all else as the number one chief priority, this is what happens.

34:08

like, we, you live in a society where everyone's locked in the room and we, you know, we used to have a funny movie, Bubble Boy, where, you know, the helicopter parenting, you know, on crack or, but, but we're doing that, you know, like, we, we literally have gone there fully because of a matriarchal influence in our society.

34:26

And so, but you have to, like, being a man is to, is to be able to mitigate risk, to be able to have to make tough decisions, you know, to have to, like, make decisions devoid of emotion at times, and like, that, that are based on the cold, hard facts.

34:38

I mean, how do you send a bunch of soldiers in to battle if you can't do that kind of thing, right? And know what you're doing, you know?

34:46

And so, I mean, I, like, there's just, I mean, I just look at my own life and my own marriage and, you know, like, there is burdens that I've had to bear as a husband and a provider with, you know, scary situations that we've been in.

34:58

And, you know, God's designed men to face those, right? Darrell Bock Right. Greg Love Face those, and to bear those burdens.

35:06

and, and, you know, I, I've never seen a couple where, or there's very, very few and far between where, well,

35:13

I wouldn't say I've never seen a couple, but, you know, bound bounds of probability. And God's designed men to bear, you know, that kind of thing a lot better than He's designed women.

35:22

And, you know, I think, by and large, women are often more prone to deception than men as it, as it relates to just doctrinal heresies and everything else.

35:30

And so, there's just any number of creational reasons why God would do this. It's not just some arbitrary choice.

35:36

It's made to our design. You know, God designed men to be leaders and women to be followers. And when we reject that, we get chaos or we get, you know,

35:45

COVID soccer moms who refuse to let in, helicopter parents who refuse to let in. Yeah.

35:51

You, you talking about that, it may, it made me remember. I don't, I don't, you probably remember this too.

35:57

I think, I guess it was last year at some point, there were these two commercials that came out.

36:04

One was an American military commercial. And then the other one was like a

36:10

Russian, a military commercial. And they were put side by side.

36:15

And in the Russian one, you know, you have like this really heavy, and then you see all these images of this dude with his head, you know, with his head basically shaved.

36:25

He's really muscular. And he's, he's doing all of this intense training. And I mean, the guy looks like he was bred in a lab, you know, and he was, you know, yeah, made, made for killing people.

36:39

Right. And then you flip over to the American military commercial. And it's like this animated cartoon, almost like a

36:46

Disney cartoon where it's this, this girl talking about how her parents, you know, conquered basically the patriarchy by, you know, being two lesbian women who were, who joined the military or something.

37:02

And you just have this weird contrast of the one that looks, you know, scary.

37:08

Like, I mean, I don't want to go, I don't want to be in a room by myself with this dude. And only one of us is allowed to leave.

37:14

And then the other one is like a, wait, is this even a military commercial? This doesn't seem like anything that you would be talking about if you're meant to be someone who defends your nation from aggressors.

37:29

Right. And, and I think that's kind of the idea that, that you're presenting here as, as, Hey, we're, we're kind of reaping some of the consequences of enabling, really more of a matriarchal society.

37:44

yeah, like related to the, you know, more as a deceived kind of idea. I mean, like, there's just like, there's a naive kind of feminine perspective that you have a lot of female politicians and they just don't understand that there's evil in the world.

37:59

You know, it's just like, think about all the riots and all the looting and all the shootings of police shootings and everything else.

38:04

And it's just like, there's like what, what a lot of these lady politicians that they don't realize is that, you know, if you have someone who is taking your gun and trying to bash you in the head with it, you know, and is high and everything else, it's just like, well, why don't you just have a conversation with him and, you know, just try to talk him down and use, you know, deescalation techniques and everything else.

38:31

It's just like, this is coming from the kind of person who has never been in a fight before. Right.

38:36

Right. And never seen like the terrifying strength of someone who's like, like a terrifying man strength.

38:44

Right. Like before. And it's just a naive view of the world, the way the world works.

38:49

And it's like, I mean, being a man, like growing up as a man, like, you know, that there is a kind of, you know, stupidity there that like, you know, like there are, there are evil people out there who are very, very strong, you know, and if you've never been in that kind of relation, that kind of situation where you're in fear for your life, it's not just an easy thing to subdue, you know, a 250 pound guy full of muscle.

39:19

Yeah. Hey, you stop it. You know, you know, and I saw this one video of like some

39:25

European cop, lady cops who were, there was three European lady cops who were basically, you know, they, with their little batons or whatever, they don't even have guns.

39:35

And they're trying to get this guy to, you know, comply with them and get in the car and like, and, and, you know, they're just like, get in the car, get in the car, you know, get in the car, you know, no, no, no, no.

39:46

And then he pushes them away, you know, and then they come back and try to, you know, ease him into the car and he pushes them away, you know, and then finally like a, some guy from the apartment who comes down there and grabs a guy, you know, but it's, it's that kind of thing where it's just like, you're telling me they're nice words.

40:03

Didn't get to get in the car. I'm truly surprised.

40:12

Okay. So, you know, I think we've, I think we've talked a good bit about, you know, should, should women be obeying their husbands?

40:25

Why should they be obeying their husbands? I want to ask you kind of some more questions focused on the application of this idea.

40:36

So I want to start with, with just asking you kind of a broad, you know, what exactly does this obeying look like when we're talking about a wife obeying their husband?

40:47

What exactly does God have in mind when he's giving that kind of command? What does it look like?

40:55

Yeah. So I think the idea of obedience is, is to comply with or follow commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions.

41:04

Now, part of the problem is that like with the idea of obedience, part of what

41:11

I've already said is that we typically think of submission essentially as something that functionally should never happen, if that makes sense.

41:23

So like if a husband is leading his wife, well, she'll always agree with everything he says. And so then we have like this servant leader kind of idea of like, you're, you know, basically taking a word that's the opposite of leader and making it the definition of leadership.

41:39

Yeah. But, but basically what one of the things that you have is like, this is, this is a problem where you have a bunch of nice guys who are basically trying to like, this is where the church is producing a bunch of nice guys who are basically, you know, coming, um, you know, with every decision there is to make, but they're trying to love their wife well.

41:56

And, and what, one of the things that they do is essentially they just come up to their wife and they say, Hey honey, what do you think we should do?

42:01

You know? And that's what they call leadership, you know? And that's what we typically, and that's what a lot of young guys are doing.

42:08

They're like, yeah, you know, I, I want to be a good husband. You know, I, I, I'm a leader in some sense or whatever, but the way

42:14

I'm going to lead is by serving and trying to figure out what my wife wants. And so what, the way they approach every situation is essentially to ask her what she wants to do.

42:21

So it's like, Hey honey, where do you want to eat today? Right? Um, honey, what do you think we should do about, uh, you know,

42:26

I have a couple of jobs and what do you think we should do? Like, do you think I should do this one or I think I should do that one or whatever else, you know, or even if it's related to, you know, you know, preferences,

42:39

Hey, what show would you like to watch, honey? Right. Like, like we, like, what do you feel like doing?

42:44

You know? And so like the way that the husband leads in that kind of scenario is that they're always asking your wife what to make every decision essentially.

42:52

Right. And so then like, you know, what happens then is you basically train the wife to essentially be like accustomed and used to always getting to be the deciding voice and everything.

43:06

And then it's just like, you know, when it comes to a situation where you really have a difference of opinion, like then, you know, you communicate that and then she doesn't handle it.

43:15

then, then what you're told by the evangelical leaders today is that you must be leading poorly.

43:21

Right. Yeah. So it must be that you're doing something wrong because you know, if you'd loved your wife, like Christ loves church, what wouldn't want to follow that?

43:28

And so it's like, well, what am I doing wrong? She doesn't want to follow me. It's like, well, it's like, well, are you a leader or not?

43:35

You know? And so like, they must not know how it, how it ended up for Jesus, you know?

43:40

Right. Right. Right. It's like, you know, if that's just the necessary and tell them whatever they want, woman wouldn't want to follow

43:45

Jesus. Well, the problem with that is they killed Jesus, right? So we all killed him. So he loved us like Jesus loved us and we killed him.

43:52

We put him to death, you know? So like, it's not necessarily true that, you know, if you love your wife, like Jesus, she'll want to follow you.

44:00

But here's the thing. So I think what, what obedience actually looks like is to comply with commands. But then in your standard relationship, you know, your husband isn't giving any commands.

44:09

He isn't giving any direction. He isn't giving any instruction at all. And the moment he does like the moment he does, right?

44:19

Inevitably what's going to happen is like, how dare you, sir, you know, who do you think you are asking me to clean up the house while you're at work?

44:32

You know, and normally it's like, the thing is, it's worded in the nicest possible way, right? Hey, honey, you know, you think you could maybe pick up a little bit.

44:44

Who do you think you are? You know, how dare you treat me like a child? You know, like, how dare you treat me like a child?

44:51

And, you know, don't you know that I have all this stuff to do? And it's like, oh, then, you know, well, what do you, what do you got to do, honey? You know? Oh, you know, you don't know what my day is like and everything else.

45:00

But like, so the point though, is just to say like, what does obedience look like? What does God have in mind? Why do you think God has in mind a husband who is much more active than your standard servant, leader type, who has some sort of direction, who has some sort of, you know, commands to give, constructions to give, uh, whatever, you know, and they don't have to be like worded in some sort of caveman way.

45:23

Like, you know, woman, go, you know, make me a sandwich or something like that. That's what people think, you know, when you think, you know, you know, are you giving your wife commands?

45:36

Are you giving her instruction? Are you giving her things to do? Everyone goes there with it. But I mean, like, you should be like, hey, honey, here's what

45:42

I want. you know, I'm going to work today. Like a perfectly natural thing would be, all right, you know, make sure that you, you know, mail the packages, you know, uh, make sure that you, uh, you know, make sure you, you know, we've, we've let the dishes go a little bit.

45:59

Let's get the dishes clean today. You know, um, you know, one of the things that we need to do is like, we're going to have company coming, coming over.

46:07

And so, you know, make sure you're doing this or that or whatever else. And, and, uh, all that.

46:13

And so, I mean, I, I just think that, uh, you know, Hey, you know, and make sure you read your Bible today. I think that there should be like tangible instructions that are given.

46:21

Like, like we have a Bible reading plan that we're going to follow. We have this or that, like, here's what we're going to do.

46:27

You know, make sure you, you know, have the kids, uh, do their Bible reading today. Uh, like first thing when they wake up, you know, there's any number of things that you're going to give.

46:36

That's going to be tangible directions. And these are commands that you're going to give. And like, uh, you know, you'll know the state of your marriage if submission or obedience is actually there is if you dare to give any kind of instruction or direction and you see what happens, you know?

46:52

So, are you kind of, so are you saying basically if husbands want, if husbands want to lead their wives, uh, like Christ led, then the natural reaction is your wife should want to kill you.

47:09

Yeah. Unless she has the spirit of God inside of her, right? Yeah.

47:15

I guess the apostles didn't want to kill Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Unless, but the thing is, like, yeah,

47:20

I mean, that's the thing. It's, it's, um, there are any number of scenarios you can find yourself in.

47:27

So if you're married to an unbeliever, then like, if you try to be a biblical leader, she will want to kill you and probably divorce you.

47:34

And that really isn't your fault. And you can't let her win, you know, as far as like, you know, you have to, you have to keep on going, you know, but then, you know, if you're, um, you know, if you're in a scenario, like the reality is

47:47

God's designed the world in such a way that he commands man to lead. And then he gets, he equips him to lead and he commands a woman to follow and he equips her to follow.

47:55

But then because of the fall, there's a fundamental conflict that's introduced into the sexes where the men want to be passive, right?

48:03

They want to let their wives drive them around. They want to watch their wives, tell them what to do. You know, they want to keep the woman happy because she has all the cards.

48:10

And, you know, most of it's about, they want to have sex. And she's the one who holds the keys to that. And so they do want to keep her happy and, you know, so that maybe they can have some hope of, you know, uh, uh, doing what they thought marriage was going to be about, you know, kind of thing.

48:25

But, but mostly what you have is you have a bunch of passive men. And then, and, but then like the, the whole thing is that God has made, like, um, uh, has cursed, you know, the relationships in such a way that a woman's desire will be to master her husband.

48:39

Fundamentally. That's what her sinful heart will tell her. But then the problem is that if he lets her master him, she'll despise him and she'll hate him.

48:47

And so that's, that's the problem is that most guys think that the way to keep a happy wife is just to give her whatever you want.

48:53

But then when you do that, she'll never want to have sex with you again. It's the problem. It's because she, you're emasculated in her eyes.

49:00

Like she, she, uh, well, based on, yeah. Yeah. Yes. If you want to use the mannish fear language.

49:13

Oh man. Yeah. I mean, but essentially like that's like a woman's looking for a man to like lead them.

49:21

And that's why, you know, like they always go with the, you know, like the nice guys finish last kind of thing, you know, obviously the nice guys finish last and they always go with the guys who are trashy and, you know, treat her, treat him poorly because what they see in those guys is at least a little bit of them.

49:35

And he's a leader, right now. He may be a total self centered leader, right? But all you are, you know, nice guy is just to follow her, you know, who's not going to provide her any tangible direction, whatever.

49:46

And that's why she doesn't look at you as if you're, you know, desirable to her. Yeah. Yeah. And that actually, um, part of your answer was essentially saying, um,

50:00

I think if, if I remember correctly, um, basically, basically saying,

50:06

Hey, look, uh, we all obviously inherently reject

50:12

God and everything that he's commanded. We rebel against him. And, and part of what that looks like for women is, um, instead of, instead of submitting to their husbands, their natural inclination is to want to rule over their husbands.

50:29

And in so doing, they're rejecting something that God has commanded. And that means that they're rebelling against him and have, you know, incurred, um, condemnation on themselves.

50:43

Right. And, and so the men aren't happy and the women aren't happy. Nobody's, nobody's happy.

50:48

It doesn't work out well. And, and what that leads me to is a question that I actually don't have on my, on my list here anywhere, but I was thinking about it earlier while you were talking.

50:58

And essentially that question is, you know, for, um, even any of the

51:04

Christian women who might have the audacity to have continued listening past all of the, the answers up to this point, um, is it, is it wrong to say that, that anyone who, any woman who's rejecting this, uh, this command that God's given that wives should obey their husbands.

51:27

Is it wrong to say that, you know, Christian or not, functionally they, um, they are rejecting what

51:37

God has said to do if they refuse to obey their husband. And that should give them pause when it comes to how willing they are to actually obey

51:48

God himself. Uh, should, should the, should the idea that, um, you know, they might, they might not want to obey their husbands.

51:57

Should that make them worried about their relationship with God? Like, Hey, if I'm not even willing to obey my husband, why in the world would

52:07

I think that I'm willing to obey God? Who's given the command to obey my husband. Does that make sense?

52:13

What I'm asking? Yeah. No. Yeah. I mean, that's essentially what Romans 13 says. It says, let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there's no authority except from God.

52:21

And those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resist this or resist the authorities, resist what

52:27

God has appointed. And those who will resist will incur judgment. But I would say that in a lot of marriages, a lot of Christian marriages, um, there's, there's a problem that like a woman, like in most that she does not want to, uh, submit and obey.

52:44

She doesn't want to obey or submit. And the meaning, the actual meaning of the word submit, but then the problem is like, and, and, you know, you talk to a lot of ladies as it relates to this subject, the, the, the followup they say is submit to what essentially.

53:02

So it's just like the, he's not, what is he doing? What does he ask me to do? You know, he comes home every day and, you know, watch his

53:08

TV or plays games or whatever else. Like, what does he ask me to do? He's not asked me to do anything. There's nothing to submit to. There's functionally no leadership here.

53:16

Right. And I mean, there's a kind of woman who might be saying that who wants like, um, has like, you know, um, expectations that are maybe a bit unrealistic that, you know, the husband will come home and, you know, the only way he can be a faithful husband is to preach her and, and, and our sermon saying all the things that she wants him to say in the order that she wants him to order.

53:38

But, but, I mean, I think in the vast majority of situations, kind of what was really happening is you have a bunch of passive men who, you know, are really functionally not exercising much leadership in any way possible.

53:49

And then the only extras, the only kind of, you know, leadership there even remotely trying to is,

53:55

Hey, you know, the Bible tells us to have sex, you know, kind of thing. So it's a bit woman, you know, and it's just like, well,

54:01

I think that's all you care about, dude. You know? So, so like, there's no guys, you're not off the hook.

54:08

Yeah. No, I mean, I, you know, if all you're doing is the servant leader thing where, you know, you basically just asking her opinion about, you know, what she wants to do and every single scenario, you know, you're, what are you doing to actually lead her?

54:21

And like, so maybe you need to get started. And I would say though, like once, once, um, here's the thing, once things go that way, right.

54:33

And you develop a pattern, uh, over, uh, you know, uh, substantial length of time of just doing that kind of thing.

54:41

Just if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy with that. Because, you know, I don't want to deal with the craziness that comes from not giving her what she wants kind of thing.

54:50

You know, then what happens though, is it, it, it, it, it is a substantial adjustment that will occur the moment you start actually taking initiative and, you know, providing tangible direction in your home.

55:02

It's like, well, who are you? Where have you been at all times? Like, well, forgive me. I've been a terrible husband. So let's start now.

55:07

Right. Yeah. And, and then it's going to get worse before it gets better for sure. You know, it'll get worse before, and you're going to have to face it, you know?

55:14

So this is a mess you created in part, you know, I'm not saying that all of that, I'm not saying that there's not scenario.

55:20

Like, I think that there's a lie to say that there's some sort of scenario that like anytime, you know, a lady is resistant to her husband's leadership, it's all, you know, failures on his part.

55:30

Uh, that's not true. But at the same time, uh, it, it's a mix of both, you know?

55:37

And they should, yep. And they, and they should, husband should probably expect a period of time when you're trying to, uh, correct these issues where maybe your wife does want to crucify you.

55:51

Sure. I mean, but I think a woman who really wants to submit to her husband, like, you know, if that's the scenario, so there's different scenarios that, that kind of woman who really wants to submit to her husband.

56:00

Now I've talked to women like that, you know, and they say, yeah, but he's not leading me in any way. You know, there's nothing to submit to.

56:06

It's just like, well, honey, this isn't all that hard to think about, right? Like what to do.

56:11

Like, I, I, I want to believe you that that's just, you know, you would love to submit to him, you know?

56:18

Um, but then like, just start asking him, like if you're in that scenario, just start asking him, you know,

56:24

Hey, um, you know, husband, what do you think we should do about this scenario?

56:30

You know, what do you think we should do about this scenario? Because I want to follow you, you know? And I'm not,

56:36

I'm not saying it's all up to her to fix the relationship. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that like, if you're in that scenario, like, um, you can make it real hard for a guy to lead, or you can make it easy, you know?

56:48

And, uh, and, you know, like, and then on the other end, it's like, she won't listen to anything I'm saying.

56:53

Well, it's like, well, you know, why don't you, why don't you pray for her? And why don't you start, you know, asking her to do things, like just keep at it, you know?

57:01

Ask her to do things that, you know, she should have no, um, problem doing it.

57:07

Pick battles that are not just, obviously, self -motivated, you know? Mm -hmm. Like, make, pick the right battles, you know, and just stick, stick to your guns, you know?

57:15

Hey, we're going to go to church every week. I'm going to expect you to go to church every week. You know, come hell or high water, we're going to go to church every week.

57:22

Mm -hmm. You know, we're not sleeping in anymore. We're going to go to church every week. So, you know, start there at the spiritual things and see what happens, you know?

57:29

Like, and then, you know, if it's like, hey, you're just being selfish, it's like, how in the world is that selfish?

57:35

You know, there's nothing selfish about that, you know? So, you know, if that makes sense, but anyways.

57:41

Um, so, so should women, you know, in keeping with this topic of what, what exactly does, uh, you know, a wife obeying her husband look like?

57:55

You know, I, okay, so, I, uh, drive a school bus as one of the jobs that I do.

58:02

And so, you know, obviously I, I work with children, um, for a few hours out of most days.

58:08

And one of the things I've noticed is, uh, very few of them really want to do what

58:15

I say. They would rather do whatever they want to do. And when I, when

58:21

I tell them to do something, they typically get frustrated. you know, normally if they don't do what

58:27

I asked them to do, and, um, if they do, if they do actually obey, you know, what

58:33

I've told them to do, whether it's, you know, sit down or stop, you know, stop yelling or whatever it is, they typically do it with kind of a begrudging attitude, right?

58:42

They're, they're, they're going to do it, but they're not happy about it. Um, so, so with this kind of topic, you know, we're, we're talking about really the same idea, like the, uh, wives should be obeying their husbands, you know, like my students should be obeying me when it, when it comes to riding on the bus.

59:03

Right. And, um, so the question ultimately is, uh, in obeying their husbands, should the wives, um, you know, actually like in their hearts, be happy to obey their husbands?

59:19

Or, or is it fine to just basically say, Hey, you know what? I don't like the way it is, but it is the way it is.

59:26

So I've just got to do it. Um, is it better for the wife to say,

59:31

Hey, no, I actually am, am glad and joyful to, uh, to receive commands from my husband and then obey them to the best of my ability.

59:44

One of the things that's funny here. Okay. So, if you think about Hebrews 13, seven, 17, it says, obey your leaders and submit to them for their keeping watch over your souls as those who have to give an account.

59:56

And it says, let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that would be of no advantage to you. Right. Uh, like the idea of let them do this with joy and not with, uh, groaning, uh, essentially don't make it hard, you know, don't, don't do it with a bad attitude, make it be a source of joy, make it instead of groaning.

01:00:13

But notice how, you know, every, every authority relationship, what is the same words that come up, obey your leaders, submit to them.

01:00:20

Right. That's the same word in every case. Yeah. And so, um, but you know,

01:00:25

I think there's two, um, there's, there's, there's two components to obedience.

01:00:33

One component is to do like the external behavior. And then there's a second component, which is to have a heart that, uh, longs to obey essentially.

01:00:42

So I, I think, um, I don't know if it was, um, I think it's

01:00:48

Piper. Who's always talking about the motive mattering, the motive matter, like, you know, desiring God and all that. Right.

01:00:53

Yeah. I can't remember who gave this scenario, but someone gave a scenario of like a child, basically, um, like a parent telling a child, you know, sit down on the chair and, uh, you know, be quiet or whatever.

01:01:06

And then the child like is sitting down on the, uh, on the, or just sit down on the chair, you know, and the child is sitting on the chair and looks up at the adult and says,

01:01:15

I'm sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside. You know, in other words, you know,

01:01:24

I'm only doing this because you're commanding me to, but I really hate that you are, you have the audacity or dare to tell me to do this.

01:01:31

I mean, that, that kind of thing is not the kind of thing that honors God. But at the, at the end of the day,

01:01:36

I mean, there's, there's, there's two components, right? So, uh, there's, there's the external, the internal, and it'd be far better for you to, you know, hold, you know, hold your nose, grit your teeth and do the right thing.

01:01:50

Then it would be just to say, like to throw your hands up in the air and say, you know, you know what?

01:01:55

You're like, if I'm not going to be able to do this with a good attitude, then forget it. Right. So like, why not?

01:02:01

I mean, so, so the point there is just to say that, I think sometimes in life you have to obey with a bad attitude long enough to where you can get to where you obey with a good attitude.

01:02:12

That's the way it works, right? Uh, so there's no virtue in obeying with a good, I mean, there's no, like, you know, it's not as if like, this is, like it's great to obey with a bad attitude, but you know, what do you do?

01:02:24

You say, Lord, forgive me my horrible attitude. Help me obey with a good attitude. I'm going to do what my husband says, you know?

01:02:30

Um, I don't like it, but you know, instead of just focusing on how much I hate this and how much

01:02:36

I despise this and how much I detest this, I need to be reminded that, you know, you're going to hold my husband accountable for the decisions that he makes and not me.

01:02:46

And so I pray for him that you are merciful to him and compassionate. And I think the more that, you know, wives could actually pray for their husbands in those moments instead of going frustrated and have, you know, and realize that like,

01:02:57

Lord, like you're going to hold them to a stricter judgment than me. And I'm scared for him. And I pray that you would, you know, be merciful to him and, and, um, you know, forgive him for he knows not what he does, you know, kind of thing.

01:03:09

You know, the more that you do that, the more that you soften your heart. And it's not just this, like, I'm not getting my way.

01:03:15

I'm going to scream on the inside kind of thing and just be frustrated. It's like, just get your eyes off yourself and think about what's actually happening here.

01:03:22

But yeah, I think there's, there's obviously two components there. There's the external, the internal, and for the obedience to be complete, it needs to be both.

01:03:31

you know, there's no kind of scenario where it's just like, you know, people think, people think, well, you know, if I, if I don't want to do it and I do it anyways, then that's being a hypocrite, right?

01:03:42

Because it's inauthentic and I'm not living my truth and all that. And it's like, no, that's, that's what you call being, like, that's what you call integrity, right?

01:03:51

Integrity is doing the right thing, even when you don't want to. That's integrity, right? But then, like God can cleanse your heart to such a way that you, you love what is good and you hate what is evil.

01:04:03

And that's what you should be praying for him to do. Yeah. Okay. Well, another kind of application question, you know, obviously we're talking about husbands are pretty much, you know, they're commanded essentially to be making the decisions for the family ultimately, you know, and, and that way they would be leading their families.

01:04:26

So does that mean that, you know, wives should never be included in the decision making process?

01:04:33

If, if wives are going to obey this command from God to obey their husbands, does that mean they're essentially barred from helping make decisions by God?

01:04:44

So husband could never go to his wife and say, Hey, here's the situation I'm going to,

01:04:49

I'm going to make the decision. But what do you, what do you think? Is that essentially off limits now? No.

01:04:56

Well, let me give a qualified. No. Okay. Okay. I want to give a qualified. No. Um, if a husband is the leader of his home, what that means is that I think in the vast majority of scenarios, like if he's leading, like, so part, part of what's happened is like with the whole like submission idea, like you get rid of the idea of obedience, you get rid of like, this is a, like a real authoritative relationship in any way.

01:05:29

And it's just like a tiebreaker and real big scenario kind of thing. What you, what you don't have in that kind of arrangement is a natural day to day expectation of tangible commands or leadership or direction within a home.

01:05:42

Does that make sense? Yeah. So basically you have kind of what big moments of mission, but then most of it's just laws.

01:05:50

I fare. Does that make sense? Free for all kind of thing. All right. So, but in a, in a healthy, like biblical home, there's going to be like, you know, 20 commands a day kind of thing.

01:06:03

Right. There's just a normal part of, you know, leadership that like would happen with any, you know, so like, just imagine you're at a work scenario, right.

01:06:12

Where, uh, the boss comes in and like, here's what we're doing today, guys. Right. So we, we got, you know, uh, we needed it, you know, 20, a hundred computers to go out today.

01:06:23

You know, you, you're assigned to this, you're assigned to this, you're assigned to this. Uh, we need to make sure that we, uh, are, you know, doing all the testing we need to do and everything else like that's being a leader.

01:06:34

Right. And we understand that in the secular way, like with the boss, the boss comes in and he says, here's what's happening.

01:06:39

And you know, let's execute the plan. You know, you understand that in a basketball team, you know, here's the plan we're doing guys.

01:06:46

All right. You know, and like all that leadership involves a lot, a lot of instructions, right?

01:06:54

Like there's no way that, all right guys, well, what do you think we should do today? You know, let's have a little powwow.

01:07:01

What do you think guys? Do you think we should, um, do layup drills or, you know, do suicides? Uh, what do you think?

01:07:06

What do you think? You know, uh, I think we should rest today. Yeah. Do you want to just like, you know, go out there and just free for all, you know, like what, what do you think?

01:07:15

You know, like whatever's happening there, it's not a coach, right? And it's not a leader. It's not leadership. And so I think within a normal home, one of the things that should be happening is that there should be a lot of just tangible.

01:07:26

Here's the plan. Here's what we're doing today. Here's the, here's the, here's the goal. Here's what, here's our plan for the day.

01:07:32

Here's what we're doing. Kind of stuff that, I mean, that should just be the natural state of affairs, right?

01:07:38

To, but then I don't think that like, you know, that when you're executing that standard kind of plan, really like if you're, if at every single point, like, you know, you're, you're the basketball coach on the team.

01:07:53

And like, you're, you know, your players are basically looking at you and saying, well, do you think this is the best idea to do layups before we do?

01:08:05

To do layups before we do sprints today? Or you know, do you think, You think sprints before layups is good to do, and don't you think we should be scrimmaging a little bit more?

01:08:15

I feel like we've been lacking in scrimmaging lately, and we don't have enough free time during our practices where we can just kind of practice the things that are unique to us.

01:08:25

If every time you're kind of exercising leadership, it turns into some sort of discussion, right?

01:08:31

At some point, it's just like, hey, we've got to make a plan, okay? Like, this is not a morally significant – these are not morally significant things, right?

01:08:44

What order we do – do we do Bible study first in the day, or do we do – a lot of that stuff is just stuff that doesn't need to be discussed, and if you're having to discuss literally every decision you make in order to live with your wife in an understanding way, there's a sense in which it's like you have a leader, follower, or problem that's on your hands.

01:09:04

Does that make sense? But, you know, I think if a husband and wife – one of the things that they should do to mitigate – like, what should happen,

01:09:12

I think, is in 99 % of the scenarios, a wife should just be following, but her impulse is just to follow, and one of the questions she should be asking at that point is, is this worth having – it's just so significant of a problem that we have to discuss it right now, kind of thing, right?

01:09:33

And if I have to discuss it every time, am I really all that submissive, right? So, there's that.

01:09:39

But I think one of the things a husband should be doing is having regular times within the home where everything's on the table, right?

01:09:48

So one of the things that my wife and I have done over the years is what's called a conference table, and it's just a time where we get together and say, hey, what's going on with the relationship, and let's discuss things, right?

01:09:57

And so, one of the things that you – like, a weekly thing, you say, hey, how are we doing?

01:10:03

What needs to change? And I think that's – like, those moments are the moments where you discuss how the routine's going and how the plans are going, and it's like, hey,

01:10:13

I want to hear what you have to say. What do you think can be improved upon? What do you think we're doing poorly? What do you think we can do wiser, kind of thing?

01:10:20

Do you have any concerns? But what doesn't need to be happening is on a day -to -day basis. It's like, honey, you're in the middle of the parking lot, and you're trying to park.

01:10:35

And it's like, honey, don't you think we should park at that closer parking spot over there? It's like, well, no, I don't.

01:10:41

Like, we're right – I'm pulling into this one right here. It's like, but don't – isn't it nicer to – it's like, yeah, but I'm not trying to get in a wreck and run over someone because they're having a discussion right now.

01:10:51

Like, don't you love me? You're not living with me. It's like, no, honey, this is not the moment. We'll talk about parking strategies later, but this is not the moment.

01:11:03

So I think that there should be some regular time where you do discuss things.

01:11:09

And particularly when you have big decisions to make, that's where it's just like you may discuss them for a few weeks.

01:11:15

Not all day long, every day, but you have a time, you point it where it's like, hey, this is discussion time. Let's do it, kind of thing, if that makes sense.

01:11:22

So, yeah, no, I think absolutely a good leader is going to – I think a good leader is going to say –

01:11:29

I think a good leader is going to take a lot of initiative and is going to run a play. And I think if at every point you're trying to run a play, right, you have to discuss it.

01:11:39

It's like, hey, we need to chill, you know? Let me run the play. We'll review it later. Like, nothing – like, you know, this is just – this is not a – most of them are not moral, you know, if that makes sense, kind of things, or just huge things.

01:11:54

So is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good. So there's obviously going to be a lot of pushback to this idea.

01:12:02

We've stated that ad nauseum at this point. But one of the ways we can kind of mitigate against that is there's obviously – there's going to be a lot of assumptions made and there's going to be a lot of people who point to examples of poor leadership from a husband and basically use those examples to try and nullify or neuter the things that we're saying and push back against them, trying to prove that they're actually not true, what we're saying.

01:12:36

And so why don't you just take some time to maybe dispel some of those arguments by just talking about what exactly a wife obeying their husband does not look like.

01:12:49

What does it not look like according to Scripture? Yeah, sure. So yeah, that objection –

01:12:56

I think that objection of, hey, you know, well, this sounds dangerous and this sounds – you know, this could be abused, like,

01:13:04

I've been – I've been teaching on the subject long enough to know that that's just kind of a standard thing that people throw out.

01:13:12

You know, women will even throw that out, you know, at church as you're teaching, you know. Hey, this sounds dangerous.

01:13:18

This should be abused and everything else. And I think anytime – like, men will do it too, which is one of the things that's really funny.

01:13:26

Like, I mean, I've been in a number of scenarios where I just talk about authority relationships in just a straightforward way, like talk about the rules of how authority relationships work.

01:13:34

And the more that a person talks about authority relationships, the more suspicious people really get. And it's just like – because I just don't think they have a category for what authority relationships actually are.

01:13:44

You know, at my last church, I preached a sermon once because it was next – we were going through First Peter, and like the title of the sermon when we were going through First Peter was,

01:13:54

Wives, Obey Your Husbands, right? And – I'm sure everyone was very appreciative.

01:14:01

We had people that would stop – like, we put our sermon titles on the marquee and we had people drive by and like take pictures of it laughing, you know, that kind of thing.

01:14:13

That we'd have the – and we had people calling in and complaining and everything else. It was really funny. I almost wondered if we were going to get like a news article written on it.

01:14:22

But no, I think – what does it not mean? Yeah, I think that there's like – there's obviously a kind of person who wants to say, well, because this can be abused, like you said, therefore don't do it.

01:14:34

But that's – I mean, everything can be abused. The question is not, can it be abused?

01:14:39

Everything can be abused, right? And it can be abused in every single direction. So and it doesn't really – you know, in a matriarchal society that we're living in right now, that matriarchal authority is being abused, right?

01:14:55

It's abused. So like the issue is whoever's in charge, it can be abused.

01:15:00

That's the point. But God obviously has made authority relationships and they – you know, the way we submit to those reflects something about how we relate to God as well.

01:15:13

But yeah, obviously they can be abused. I think that there's many –

01:15:22

I think that there have been many men in – when America was more of a patriarchal situation, right?

01:15:30

Like I don't think that this is happening en masse right now. We're just like – we are dealing with the specter of the past or something along those lines.

01:15:38

But I think that there's many men in patriarchal kind of – in the patriarchal relationships of the past who essentially thought of submission as basically, you know, do whatever

01:15:48

I say no matter what I say without a word. Almost like a woman need to be seen and not heard thing.

01:15:56

Don't ever challenge me. Don't ever, you know, rebuke me. In those kind of context, you often have like people who are asking, you know, is it okay for a woman to rebuke her husband?

01:16:08

Is that appropriate or is that not very submissive? Is it okay for a woman to ask her husband questions about the decisions he's making?

01:16:17

I think that kind of like self -centered leadership that doesn't want any input, that doesn't want any suggestions, that's basically just do what

01:16:27

I say and shut up. You know, kind of thing is a real problem.

01:16:33

But I would say it's a real problem, but I don't know that that's really anymore what's happening on the ground.

01:16:40

What's happening on the ground right now is the exact opposite. It's basically do what the woman says or she'll scream, you know, without question, without challenge.

01:16:48

And don't – you know, it's the opposite because it's like men are absolutely afraid to rebuke women, right?

01:16:53

You think you can – Yeah, the pendulum's kind of swung to the opposite end of the spectrum. Right, right.

01:17:01

The standard male today in this society is just deathly terrified to ever disagree with a woman.

01:17:06

You know, this is insane. But all that can be true in the reverse as well.

01:17:12

And I mean, I know of some relationships that are like that where the pig -headed male just basically just uses husband -wife authority basically just to deal with his wife harshly, dominate his wife, you know, have a, you know, submissive kind of slave that does whatever he says and basically without question.

01:17:35

And, you know, basically what he's doing is enforcing his selfish will upon everyone. So I don't think a godly leader is going to be the type of guy who is looking at his authority in such a way that is self -centered or self -serving.

01:17:49

And, you know, as I tried to lead my own family, that's something that I've constantly – well,

01:17:56

I've said to my wife over the years. I've just said, hey, look, you know, I don't ever want to use my authority just to get my own selfish way.

01:18:05

And if I do that, I want you to call me on it. But I'm committed to not doing that. And I think if you look at the testimony of the way

01:18:13

I actually lead, you can see that I'm not doing that at all. You know, that's not what's happening.

01:18:20

And because I'm committed to not doing that. And, you know, I don't want to ever ask you to do something or use my authority to command you to do something that is not something that God says.

01:18:32

It's just something I want, you know? Like, I want to have a biblical reason. I'm going to tell you the biblical reason why

01:18:39

I'm doing that. But then that means that, you know, if a man's going to do that kind of thing, he actually has to actually know what the

01:18:44

Bible says, right? You know, and that's the problem is that I think a lot of men don't know the

01:18:51

Bible. So they don't even know what they should be commanding. And then what comes out is just kind of a list of selfish preferences, you know?

01:18:58

And so that's the problem. But whatever that is, it doesn't undermine the basic point.

01:19:05

You know, God's designed it to be the way it is. And yeah, but I would say that, you know, a husband obviously can't ask his wife to sin.

01:19:13

And a husband, I would say he can't ask his wife to do things that are beyond his authority to do either.

01:19:21

Like, what's an example of that? Well, yeah, I'll give you an absurd example just to prove a point.

01:19:28

But let's say that a wife, a husband were to, you know, ask his wife to sleep in a cage every night, like with a dog collar on her neck, just to show that she's under his authority, right?

01:19:46

Uh -huh. Would that be a sin for her to do that? No, I guess not.

01:19:53

I mean, is there anything in the Bible that says that that can't be her bed, you know? I guess not.

01:20:00

I mean, you may make an argument, you know, like the marriage bed or something like that. Okay.

01:20:07

But I mean, you understand what I'm saying? Like a husband can do absurd things like that that may not, they're just like, hey, you know, that's not within your authority as a leader.

01:20:22

You know, I mean, even something like stupid, like, you know, like, you know, in our house, the only color that you're allowed to wear is red kind of thing or something like that.

01:20:33

Uh -huh. That is the only color. At some point, I think that kind of guy,

01:20:39

I don't know that those kind of guys exist. There are guys who are doing things, not maybe to that extreme.

01:20:44

But there are some out there, you know, the world has enough people. But I mean,

01:20:49

I think in a scenario like that, it's like, do you really have the authority to tell me what colors to wear? Like, I'm only allowed to wear this color every day.

01:20:57

It's the only color. I have to wear the same outfit every single day, you know? Like this is, what is this about?

01:21:04

Is this about the Bible or is this about just you're being a megalomaniac, you know? Yeah. At this point. And so I think those are just some silly examples of things that, but I mean,

01:21:18

I think, you know, with related to the pandemic and stuff, we need to have a, you know, some sort of understanding of what the government is actually allowed to do to, right?

01:21:28

So is the government allowed to tell us what we have to put in our body? Is that, was it designed by God to do that?

01:21:33

Do we just in some simplistic way say, obey the governing authorities, whatever they say, they tell us we have to put these chemicals in our body that might harm us.

01:21:41

It's like, well, okay, well, I guess we better do it because they say so, even though they're not tested and whatever else. I mean, if the government were to step in and say, hey, every house has to, you know, have taco

01:21:50

Tuesday every week, you know, it's like, really? Do you have the authority to tell us what to cook on which day of the week?

01:21:56

You know? And I think in a certain sense, like there's, God's given a husband a sphere of authority and part of, like, he could just, you know, go well beyond that sphere of authority.

01:22:08

Like, with some of the decisions that he would make, like, in that he's just, you know, commanding irrational, unreasonable things, you know?

01:22:17

You know, like, honey, you know, I want you to, you know, work out four hours a day and homeschool, you know, all the kids and, you know, everything else.

01:22:30

Because, you know, the body's the temple and all that, you know? So, four hours of working out a day, I want you to get up at two in the morning every day and work out till six and here's your schedule.

01:22:39

And at some point, you're just like, hey, sorry, no, you know, I can't. Like, this is beyond what you're commanded to do here, you know?

01:22:46

Pete Yeah, another pushback that I've seen from a lot of people who really don't agree with us is they argue that in order for what we're saying to be true, it has to mean that women are now less than men, right?

01:23:08

They'll use words like inferior or less valuable or, you know, less capable or, you know, however, they've worded a lot of different ways.

01:23:17

But ultimately, they end up having a problem with the idea that women need to submit and they say that it is somehow devaluing women.

01:23:28

So, what's your response to an objection like that? Jared And basically, are women inferior?

01:23:34

Does submission make women inferior to men? Pete Yeah, yeah. Jared Yeah, well, inferior is one of those words that has multiple meanings, which is the problem.

01:23:45

So, to be inferior is like, there's one, you know, there's a meaning of the word inferior that is essentially to be lower in rank or station or degree.

01:23:55

And in that way, are women inferior to men? Well, the fact that they're in an authority relationship, they're lower in rank or station than their husbands.

01:24:05

Does submission make them inferior? Well, yes, in terms of that definition of the word.

01:24:11

But then often, like inferior communicates to people less important or valuable or worthy or something like that.

01:24:18

In which case, like, are women inferior in, you know, stipulated term B, you know, sense less valuable?

01:24:25

No, right? So, everyone's equally valuable or in the eyes of God, as far as that goes, right?

01:24:31

So, everyone's equally human, but there are authority relationships that are there. And so, yes, like in terms of the authority relationship itself, the husband is a superior to an inferior related to authority, but not related to value or worth or whatever else.

01:24:48

And so, I think sometimes when people say that, they're speaking better than they know, right?

01:24:55

What do you mean? Well, that's the very thing that's the sticking point. It's like, I refuse to obey or submit because that makes me feel like a subordinate.

01:25:03

And it's like, well, you are, you know? So, get used to it, right? Yeah. Just accept it.

01:25:09

That's the way it is. Just like a cadet is a subordinate to a commanding officer.

01:25:16

Just like, you know, church members are subordinate to church leaders, like in that way. Just like citizens are subordinate to kings, you know, all of that.

01:25:25

Like, yes, that's the way it works. If you feel that, like you feel like there's an imbalance in authority, it's because there is.

01:25:31

Yes, you know, that's the way it works. But then, like that doesn't, that shouldn't dehumanize you, like you're not less valuable intrinsically, you know, in terms of worth or anything else.

01:25:43

Like, if it does, like, I mean, we're all, you know, subordinate to Christ, aren't we?

01:25:50

And so, if that makes us feel somehow less than, you know, we're cutting off any hope of salvation we have for ourself and thinking that way, right?

01:25:58

I mean, like there's, like God's designed authority relationships for good, they're not for evil, like they're not to do us harm as far as that goes.

01:26:09

So, so, yep. Pete Okay. Yeah, well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up this discussion.

01:26:16

I think there's some more questions that can be asked that we'll probably do in some midweek episodes.

01:26:22

But as a, you know, main episode, I feel like we've had a pretty good conversation and hopefully this is kind of an encouraging conversation for a lot of people who would agree with what the

01:26:37

Bible is saying here. And then, you know, for others who might have gone into this episode and disagreed but been patient enough to listen to everything that you and I have to say, hopefully they've kind of been convinced that, hey, maybe the way that I've been viewing all this has not been correct and I've been disobedient to what

01:27:04

God has said. And so, you know, that's our hope anyways, is that this is a helpful conversation for you guys.

01:27:12

And, and so, so I think this has been good and we want to thank all you guys for listening and we'll see you guys next time.

01:27:21

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

01:27:27

We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible Bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media.

01:27:37

Please reach out to us with your questions, pushback, and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at BibleBashedPodcast at gmail .com.

01:27:48

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.