Submission: Should Wives Obey Their Husbands Like a Child Would Obey Their Parents?

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone and any who reject

Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation any hope of

heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty

God.

Is.

Hanging over our head.

They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath

come They will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh Condescended and became a man

died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day Has ascended to the right hand

of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods

of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand.

And.

Welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to ask.

We are your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age -old question Should

wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent now.

We've had a lot of pushback from plenty of the episodes that we've put out over the

last several weeks and normally the pushback comes from Pagans from you know, the

unsaved people who don't understand the Bible who don't Recognize that there's a God

that they should submit themselves to.

They Want to rebel at every turn so obviously they reject the things that we have to say that

are coming from clear scripture references.

But I suspect that a topic like this should wives submit to their husband

should they obey their husbands?

I've seen plenty of times where even Christians push back against this idea.

They get really riled up by this thought that Women should actually be obeying their husbands.

And so Tim, why don't we just start off by you explaining?

What the impulse is behind the wording of our title question should wives obey their

husbands like a child would obey a parent?

Well, it is outrageously offensive.

Title as far as that goes.

But.

Yeah, well, maybe we'll just Comment on the obedience part in general the idea of a

wife obeying her husband is an idea.

That really is not a new idea.

The traditional wedding vows as far as that is concerned used to be phrased

to include the idea of obedience.

And so a bride would say, you know, I take the you know husband to be my wedded husband to have and to hold from this day forward for

better or worse for Richer for poor and sickness and health to love to cherish and to obey till death.

Do us part according to God's holy ordinance.

I there to Give thee my trough.

Trough.

Whatever that yeah, that's the traditional what how wedding vows as far as that goes and this vows We've used for

for a long time for a long period of time now the obedience part is the kind of is the thing that's Fashion and now

I think you have different types of people in the church.

And so the pagans are obviously going to be offended by any idea of submission in general.

The idea of submission is a dirty word.

You don't you know, don't go there.

Don't don't say that but then.

The eye of the the idea of obedience now, that's that's the kind of thing that that does

distinguish Christians who are broadly under you know.

What might be described as the complementarian camp or the patriarchy camp or whatever else?

So the so the idea of obedience is an idea that's you uniquely offensive.

Even to the type of Christian to the vast majority of Christians who would consider themselves Complementarian

or who believe that there are biblical roles who believe that a wife would submit to their husband now.

The problem is obviously that with the rise of you know a lot of the teaching on servant leadership

and things like that the idea of submission really is an idea that is not very clearly

understood and I would say for for most Christians the idea that a wife should submit to their

husband to the ones who Believe that that a wife should submit I would say for most of them The idea

of submission functionally is this kind of arbitrary thing that God? Commands

women he could have you know made men be the one who have to submit but it's kind of like a tiebreaker.

Scenario where if there's ever a tiebreaker then you know, I guess The wife should

follow her husband so long as you know, he's not asking her to do anything that's too difficult and

she thinks it's reasonable and Everything else maybe you know, let him have the tiebreaking vote because

you know, you're at a stalemate and all that.

But then the corresponding kind of teaching that goes along with that is that functionally, you know I can't tell me

tell you how many times I've heard pastors Who would would basically, you know be

saying that a husband should I mean they would never say it in exactly this way but that's this is exactly what they're saying,

you know, I I'm always nervous if I'm in a situation where my wife doesn't agree.

So functionally like the idea of submission is just this.

You know mythical unicorn a white elephant kind of thing that should functionally never happen.

So if you're leading, well Your wife should always just willingly follow and there should be never a situation where she

staunchly disagrees with anything you say.

And so I would say the idea of submission is a very weak idea, but then the church Historically has

always understood Submission to be in a lot of ways synonymous with obedience

and and there's Bible verses that we'll talk about over the course of the podcast that deal with that kind of

subject particularly first Peter 3 That use the word obey in a very specific way as it relates to the wife.

And so I think it's helpful to really reclaim this idea of obedience as it relates to

what we're even talking about with submission and there's a lot of ideas that go with with the broader category of submission or

obedience that we really need to talk talk about and so Basically the short answer is the

idea of submission is is an idea that is very Misunderstood and and

obedience is a clear idea today.

It gets that the nature of the kind of relationship we're talking about.

Okay, so now now that we've talked about why this is going to be probably pretty

controversial even for the Confessing Christians who listen to our

podcast I can.

I can practically hear some of them screaming even now.

No.

Well, basically.

But I'll go ahead and ask you, you know, what's the answer to this question?

Should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent?

This is one of those questions is asked in a way that is so outrageous, but then logically when

you actually.

When you actually think about what you're communicating if you don't just emote if you don't emote.

Then one of the things that you realize is that I mean obedience is obedience, right?

I mean obedience is obedience.

It doesn't matter who does the obedience whether it's a you know, a servant to a master whether it's a

you know a citizen to a king whether it's a child to a parent whether it's a wife to a

husband the idea of obedience is An idea that it's a concept

that fits into many different types of relationships.

So, I mean essentially the idea of obedience no matter what the kind of relationship is is the

idea Basically do what you're told, right?

Mm -hmm so when you think about it that way like the to obey is to is

for like a person in.

A.

With a person who is in an authority relationship where there's a person in authority over them to obey is to do

what this person who is an authority over you is telling you to do and so there's no

difference functionally between how a citizen would obey King

or a wife would obey a husband or a children would obey a parent.

There's no difference like it's the same act.

It's just there's different types of relationships that demand that if that makes sense.

So so the simple answer the question is well, obviously, yes if the word obedience means anything if

that makes sense.

But then what's that what's offensive about that?

Is that instantaneously?

What people hear is, you know, you're you're you're equating women with children or something.

And it's like well no.

With.

I don't understand why your mind goes there.

I don't understand and I think a part, you know part of like What's happening is is that

something strange has happened when your mind goes there?

You're saying a wife is a child and like a wife's relationship with her husband is a parent -child

relationship.

It's like no, it's just there's a feature in a parent -child relationship.

That's also the same in a husband -wife relationship one feature.

There's a lot of other things that make up the relationship to make a wife Relationship with a husband totally

different than a parent -child relationship, but as it relates to that one area of obedience There's no

different.

I mean, there's no like obedience is obedience as it is obedience if that makes sense.

So obedience is always the same.

It's the same thing now the reason I think why You know, it's offensive is in

part because I think when it comes right down to it I think the idea that a wife should obey her

husband is offensive period.

Do you understand what I mean?

It's just an offensive idea because like we're used to thinking of submission as something that's totally not

obedience at all and so I think the real like offense is being taken because We

don't actually like the idea of obedience right period right if that makes sense, yeah, I

remember.

You know back years ago.

I I had a job where I worked with the guy who was I guess I think he was

National Guard Reserve.

Something like that where he only had to go a few weeks out of the year

for different training events.

Whatever they call him and and the rest of the year he was basically just a normal US citizen.

Who could work a normal job.

And I remember one time we had a conversation of he was a Christian

and we had a conversation about you know, the relationships with our wives and and How

they worked and you know.

Like when it came down to application, how did we make decisions?

As different family units and it's funny because I told him that the way

that my wife and I Do things is essentially.

You know, I'm the one who's making who's making the final decisions on.

Not necessarily every single thing sometimes I delegate but on on most things I am the one making the

final decision and there is no hey, let's compromise or or we're not going to

Agree or do anything?

It's just I'm gonna make this final decision and I might hear what you have to say.

But then it's ultimately up to me and now keep in mind I'm telling this to a guy who's from the military

who who understands this kind of relationship.

Very well, right.

I mean your his whole job is centered around.

Authority structure.

Obeying your commanding officer, right, right.

But but then when I told him this about my wife and I he just looked at me.

Like I was I was a total idiot, you know, and now he was not, you know.

We were we're friends and so he was totally nice and respectful.

But you know, he pushed back against what I was saying and was essentially like well, hey, I don't I don't do that with my wife.

I like to you know, try and treat my wife as an equal and and I was basically just one, you know.

Wondering well, hey, why doesn't you know?

Why doesn't the military do it that way then if it's so wrong and and you know seemingly like an

evil thing to do to Run your family that way.

Why does the military do it?

Are they evil and there wasn't really a good response to that?

But I just found it so interesting that this guy who is very, you know familiar with

understood authority.

Yeah, and and loved it.

Honestly, I mean, I mean he loved that it was so.

That it was so Succinct you can make decisions very quickly, you know.

And efficient you had to show respect to authority and and he really liked showing respect to authority when it

came to the military.

But then when it came to his own family unit, it was just a totally foreign concept.

Well, we live in the matriarchy right now.

We live in a matriarchal society.

So the rules are changed, but I mean like this word obey, you know.

Just look it up it look it up the word obey means to comply with or follow the commands

Restrictions wishes or instructions of and so I mean that's like what I'm trying to say.

And and I mean is that's true of any authority relationship to comply with or

follow the commands Restrictions wishes or instructions of like a wife has to obey her husband to comply

with or follow the commands.

Just like a child would have to obey a parent just like you know A cadet would have to

obey their commanding officer to comply with it follow the commands restrict.

Like the I mean the thing is obedience is obedience.

It's obedience, right?

It's just it is what it is.

Like that's what the concept means.

This is what the word means.

And so the question is is that an appropriate word to use for a husband -wife relationship?

It's like the question is not like Like, you know is that comparison, you

know between a husband a wife and a parent and child.

Like exact in every way the question is is the word obedience the same in any authority relationship?

And I think the problem is we live in a Christian culture right now that that has defined

submission in such a Empty way that it doesn't like

that.

It feels like a wife should be doing something very different than obedience.

And that's the that's the problem like the words offensive is the word right but the concept is it's like isn't this true of any

Authority relationship yes or no.

Mm -hmm.

And so then is a husband and wife and authority relationship and there are other features of authority relationships

that are parallel in Across the all the different relationships, right?

Right, if that makes sense, right?

So so like just think about it this way.

Harrison so like ask the question this way like should a Should a

cadet obey a commanding officer like a citizen should obey a kink.

Yes.

But it doesn't feel near as offensive does it.

No.

Why.

I mean, I think it's just Culturally acceptable, you know, right?

Yeah.

So but in those two comparisons like are they the same relationship like a citizen to a king

as a cadet?

No, there's differences.

But what's the same is the obedience part, right?

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah, so you should be able to do that with any type of authority relationship out there and

Make the comparisons without all the offense if you actually understand there's something parallel in each one.

Does that make sense?

Mm -hmm.

Okay.

All right go for it.

Um.

So.

Okay, maybe to the surprise of some of The people listening the answer is actually

yes.

Wives should obey their husbands like a child would obey.

Like a child would obey their parent.

So I know you kind of addressed this a little bit and the opening question.

Well, you know why the impulse behind the wording of this title question, but

could you just explain a little more?

Why exactly it is that?

Wives should be obeying their husbands.

Yeah, I mean I think There's a variety of reasons.

I mean the Bible teaches it in various ways.

So There's a biblical Passages just like direct biblical passages.

One of them would be first Peter three, which basically uses that sort of language.

So there's that do you want?

Are you asking for biblical evidence?

Or are you asking for?

God's.

Purpose behind the biblical evidence.

Does that make sense?

No, I.

Wanted.

I want to talk about both but for right now, I'm just asking you why should wives Obey

their husbands from a biblical perspective.

Like are there specific commands?

Are we just making?

Yeah, the biblical evidence then for that.

Yeah, well, I think first Peter three is a good a great place to go that just talks about this very thing.

So first Peter three says likewise Wives.

First Peter three one likewise wives would be subject to your own husbands.

So even if some do not obey the word They notice how husbands obey to right?

Mm -hmm.

Okay, but that doesn't you know.

No one seems to get anything.

Are you saying husbands are actually wives?

I.

Mean.

Wait, isn't it funny though?

I mean like everyone obeys God and everyone obeys his word and then none of us get all indignant about it.

All right, as far as that goes, but so obedience.

I mean like obedience is a good thing like The idea of obedience is a good thing and any kind of authority

relationship and the Bible is going to entail impedance.

Like that's just the way it works, you know, but wives be subject to your own husband.

So even if some do not obey the word they may be one without a word by the conduct of your wife now.

Notice how like how it starts with this likewise wives be subject this be subject language.

To be subject is to be an individual who's placed under the authority or control of someone.

It's the language of kingship if that makes sense.

So when you think about what's happening there you have We're we're we're used to talking about

The the idea of submission but in first Peter you have a Greek word, that's basically hoop

hoop.

It has the minnow a.

Yes, we're all very familiar with that word.

You should be yes, yes.

Who.

Potassium and I.

Now that's a word basically in this context.

So that basically is being translated as be subject meaning.

I mean, it's like a is king language is king language is.

Like a subject is a individual who is, you know placed under the authority of an authority figure, right?

And so are you tell it so are you telling me that when I see the people on Twitter, you know, use it

using slang saying Hey guys, you need to find yourself a woman who treats you like a king.

They're actually they're actually recommending a biblical idea to their to

their friends without realizing it.

They this this may be one of those that this they said not of their own

Doing you know, but they?

Yeah, yeah little did they know that that they spoke better than they knew there but

Yeah.

No, I mean so like you have King language there you have King like You have King language there.

So Even some do not obey the word.

They may be one without a word by the conduct of your wife.

Now if you go down to verse 5 it says basically the argument there is, you know Don't just be

fixated on your external appearance, but then you know cultivate, you know, godly traits that are going to be

examples of true beauty essentially and then verse 5 says This is how the holy women who hoped in God used

to adorn themselves like by adorning himself a good character.

But notice how notice what it says.

It says by this is how they adorn themselves by The same word who potassium and I they

they're being subject to their husbands are submitting to their own husbands, right?

Then notice what says this is as Sarah.

So what does it mean to submit to their own husbands?

What does it mean to don't adorn themselves with godly characteristics?

It as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord and you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything

Frightening so the example of godliness in the Old Testament that

Women, you know under the New Covenant should be aspiring towards is the example of Sarah Who basically Abra

obeyed Abraham calling him Lord basically recognizing that he's a king over her as far as that sense and and obeying

him so it's I mean, I think that right there in the verse there is a Biblical instruction that

basically says we should be like Sarah who obeyed Abraham and like what does it mean?

Just you know be subject to your husband.

It means to To obey him and and that's what it says.

Mm -hmm.

So so I mean, I think you have a command there.

That's like That I could very direct like example of the Old Testament that women

are told to follow Do not let your adorning be merely external but you know the hidden

perishable Hidden imperishable beauty just in the way to get that is to do follow Sarah's

example of obedience.

It's right there.

But I mean just you know, you know thinking about what else the Bible says I mean, you know any relationship in the Bible that is an authority

relationship always has this Obedience element to it.

That's how authority relationships work.

Mm -hmm.

So I mean in any relation any authority relationship if there's any authority so God's in authority over us.

What do we do?

We obey him right God's words authority over us.

What do we do?

We obey it, right?

You remember the What

is that guy's name?

Yeah, see I'm gonna look it up.

The guy who basically asked Jesus this is The guy who asked Jesus to heal a servant from a distance basically.

He says I also am a man under authority essentially is what he's the Roman centurion.

Yeah.

Yeah the centurion.

Yeah, he says I also he basically says I understand authority.

I'm a man also under authority give or take right?

And he says and then he says, you know I tell one man to go do this and he does it right and I tell another man to

come and he comes right?

So he says I'm a man who understands authority.

I tell people to do things and they obey my instruction essentially, right?

So you don't even have to go see my servant.

You can just tell the sickness to leave essentially and it will leave because you have authority over it, right?

Right.

That's his point.

And so like and Jesus says, you know I haven't seen such great faith in Israel and all that right because he is the guy understood

authority.

But that's how authority relationships work.

And so that's so you have a direct passage like this.

But that's just that's the way authority work relationships work every time, you know, right?

So it's just it is what it is.

It's just how authority relationship work.

Okay, so my follow -up question now is what you thought I was asking at first or I Was

wondering if I was asking why.

Why does God so we know that God does command? women to obey their

husbands.

Just don't we should you know, or if they don't they should start.

What why exactly?

Does God give this command?

I mean couldn't it just have easily have been that God said, you know.

Hey women, actually your husbands need to obey you.

Why exactly is it set up this way where wives are meant to obey their husbands?

You know Harrison, that's a That's a pretty interesting question and it's the kind of

question that It really does divide the complementarian camps

into different positions as far as that goes and so it's there have been over the past few

years what many have described as the complementarian debates essentially and.

Like a complementarianism as a position is basically just the idea that God made husbands and

wives to be Compliments to each other and in some sense is kind of like a marketing scheme that you

know.

It used to be that we talked about the patriarchy and all that, right?

So feminism came along and now everyone wants to smash the patriarchy and you know.

The patriarchy has gotten a bad rap and you know, that's just all about, you know, wife spanking abusers.

Yeah, clearly.

Yeah, so, you know the guys at CBMW, you know, they they wanted to rebrand and

call themselves complementarians.

It's kind of like a move kind of like the pro -life movement where you want to be a state your position

in a More of a neutral non -offensive kind of way, right?

And so what happened was you had a lot you had a lot of people who basically understood that male and female or compliments To each other and then

they have different roles and you know submission and that kind of vernacular was fine, but then the

problem was there's been like many people who've adopted that label of complementarian even someone like Beth Moore with.

Is she really.

Egalitarian is again, you know like preaching on Sunday.

I could want to fall under that broad rubric of I didn't know that.

Yeah, well, you have all sorts of people who basically, you know, basically complementarians took over, you know

all the major Conferences and everything else that was the standard state of affairs.

So everyone wants to say they're complementarian.

You know unless you're just like out and you know crazy world or whatever.

Yeah, but in like reform circles, you know complementarianism was a thing but then the like

problem was I think maybe it was Piper who came along at some point and He

was basically trying to answer the question.

Essentially like should You know should women be you know

bosses of men or you know rulers of men in terms of the political sphere?

Or something like that, right and so his his answer and I can't remember specifically how he worded it.

But his exam his answer was essentially no and this outraged a lot of people.

I mean, I remember when I was at Southern the Sarah Palin was running for vice president.

And and it was the oddest thing in the world to see, you know The Southern Seminary making an announcement on you know, do you

or do you believe that that wife should submit to their husband?

Yes, are you okay with Sarah Palin being a vice president of her country?

Yes, you know and so what what happened was there is this these debates and this divide that started to happen

over like individuals who thought like basically this idea of

Wives submitting to our obeying their husbands.

No one would say obey because that you know, that sounds too, you know, it's too mean.

Too mean yeah insulting and all that but the idea of some yeah submission.

Basically, you had two camps that were formed and you have one camp which called himself kind of soft Complimentarians and then one who were

more, you know, I guess hard or strict complementarians.

But the soft complementarians basically treated the idea of submission as something that was purely

irrational.

Meaning that there is functionally no reason why God would command

Men and women Women to submit to men other than it just had to pick one like he's

just making an arbitrary decision.

Yeah, it's a purely arbitrary choice.

And so the soft complementarians went that way with it.

It's essentially it's just a purely arbitrary choice, but then someone like John Piper was saying well, no, I think that there are

Ontological creational reasons like ontological tied to someone's like the being like your makeup your Constitution.

There are there are reasons why God made like God made men to lead and he made women to

follow right?

And so like so then when he says like wives follow your husband's and then he made.

You know, I did not permit a woman to teach or have authority over men and church like that's tied to their ontology

Who they are their creational makeup as far as that goes there.

So it wasn't just some subjective choice God uniquely designed men to be leaders and he designed women to be

followers and that shows up in the way that they're made so that you know, It wasn't just like a command for the

church and a command for the home and then you get to the government Sphere and it's like what do you do with you know, or like

employment in the secular workplace, you know, it's like well.

You know, I just you know, women are good leaders to you know kind of thing it's like well, no like God like so the two two

positions essentially divided in that kind of way and and you

know, I When I listened to the Southern Seminary Group, you know

Enthusiastically supporting Sarah Palin.

I just thought to myself.

This is absurd I mean the Bible says that a nation's under judgment when women and children rule over it.

Like so like what are we doing this is a shameful state of affairs this is Embarrassing this is

humiliating, you know, like why would that I I want my emotions tied to what the Bible says.

But then functionally the the answer to your question is why could God have done either way, right?

Yeah, I would say no I don't think I think the Bible teaches that God made men uniquely to lead and he made women

uniquely to follow and there's a Variety of passages which speak to this various this this very thing.

I mean, I think you know just to say something horribly more offensive than

What I've already said, you know, just let's just take this episode.

Yeah, turn it into a dumpster fire of offense here.

But I mean look my like there are times in the month where my wife goes crazy.

So.

Every man knows exactly what I'm talking about.

I mean, you know, she she's obviously Much more sanctified than she was at the

beginning of our marriage related to that.

But I mean there you know, there are times of the month where like obviously women, you know are not exactly sane.

You know, they're hypersensitive.

They're hyper emotional.

I mean, but can you imagine like a Leader like a world leader with nuclear codes or

whatever who has like a rough time of the month.

I.

Push the nuclear codes because the other country was you know, horribly offensive to them and he refuses to

listen to what they have to say.

And you know, like I mean, it's just like God didn't make women to lead.

I'm sorry.

He like he didn't I mean that creation itself bear was witness to that very fact and you know I don't have any

times of the month.

I don't where I'm tempted towards insanity I don't you know.

Like it I don't and I have counseled enough women to know that this is this is a feature it's not a glitch, you know.

And now that doesn't mean that a woman has no No Responsibility to

control her emotions, you know during That you know cycle of the moon and all that and

that she's just allowed to emote and everything else.

And you know, I think that husbands who just like let their wives do that they get

like.

They get what they subsidize essentially and it gets worse.

But I think mature and got all the mature and godly woman my wife included I know.

You know.

They know that there are temptations that way and they don't pretend like they're there's not there.

And and and you have conversations like if you're a mature couple who's not just you know, playing the feminist game.

You have conversations to say hey, where are we at?

You know, like what's going on?

Like you're acting weird.

You seem like you're crying for no reason a lot.

What's going on, you know, it's like how dare you you know ask if that's my yeah, it's like what I need to know.

Yeah, I need to know what I'm looking at here, right?

Mm -hmm in order to Make sense of what's going on.

And so yes, I mean, I think it's it's it's just it's just obvious.

For just you know biological reasons that God has made men to lead women often are much more

sensitive than men and there's often there's always there's often there's these situate there's a lot of situations that

That God's put men in where men Have to make decisions that are hard,

you know.

So because we live in a matriarchal society right now that explains a lot of the reaction to Kovat I mean like you look

around the world.

We've turned into a bunch of You know helicopter moms and it's just insane.

It's just like, you know, like we've turned into the kind of society that we can't Bear to risk

even like, you know a point oh one percent chance of death, right?

Right, right.

I mean, I mean that's insane and that that's not masculine.

That's not manly.

That's not like sane like right and so like but that's what happens when you you're in a

matriarchal society is that if you Prioritize health and safety above all else as the number one chief

priority.

This is what happens.

Like we you live in a society where everyone's locked in the room and we you know, we used to have a funny movie Bubble Boy.

We're.

You know the helicopter parenting, you know on cracker but but we're doing that.

You know like we we're literally have gone there fully because of a matriarchal influence in our society and so be you have

to like being a man is.

That is to be able to mitigate risk to be able to have to make tough decisions.

You know to have to like make decisions devoid of emotion at times and like that that are based on the cold hard

facts.

I mean, how do you send a bunch of soldiers in to battle if you can't do that kind of thing, right?

And know what you're doing, you know, and so I mean, I think there's just I.

Mean.

I just look at my own life and in my own marriage and you know.

Like there is burdens that I've had to bear as a husband and a provider with you know.

Scary situations that we've been in.

And you know, God's designed men to face those.

Right, right.

Face those and to bear those burdens.

And and and you know I've never seen a couple.

Where are those.

Very few.

And far between.

Where?

I would say I'd never seen a couple but bound balance the probability.

Then God's designed men to bear.

You know that kind of thing a lot better than these design women.

And you know I think by and large women are often more prone to deception than men as it relates to.

Just doctrinal heresies and everything else and so there's just any number of creational reasons why God would do this.

It's not just some arbitrary choice.

It's made to our design, you know.

God designed men to be leaders and women to be followers.

And when we reject that we get chaos or we get you know.

Cove it to soccer moms who refused to let it.

Helicopter parents who refused to let anyone out of their house, you know, yeah you talking about that.

It may it made me remember.

I don't you probably remember this to.

Probably I guess it was last year at some point.

There were these two commercials that came out one was an American

military commercial and then the other one was like a Russian Camilla a military commercial and

Side by side and in the Russian one, you know.

You have like this really heavy music playing and then you see all these images of this dude with his

head.

You know with his head basically shaved.

He's really muscular and he's doing all of this intense training and I mean the guy looks like he was

Bred in a lab, you know, and he was Made and Drago.

Yeah made made for killing people, right?

And then you flip over to the American military commercial and it's like this animated

cartoon almost like a Disney Cartoon where it's this girl talking about how?

her parents, you know conquered Basically the patriarchy by

you know.

Being two lesbian women who were who joined the military or something and you just have this weird

Contrast of the one that looks, you know scary like I mean, I don't want to go I don't want to be in a room

by myself with this dude and only one of us is allowed to leave and then the other one is like a Wait, is this

even a military commercial?

This doesn't seem like anything then you would be talking about if you're meant to be someone who

defends your nation from aggressors.

Right, and and I think that's kind of the idea that that you're presenting here is as hey, we're kind of

reaping some of the consequences of enabling

really more of a.

Matriarchal society.

Well, yeah like related to the you know more is a deceived kind of idea.

I mean like there's just Like there's a naive kind of feminine perspective that

you have a lot of female politicians.

And they just don't understand that there's evil in the world you know, it's just like think about all the riots and all the looting

and all those shootings of police shootings and everything else and it's just like there's

like what what a lot of these lady Politicians that they don't realize is that.

You know, if you have someone who is taking your gun and trying to bash you

Head with it, you know and is high and everything else.

It's just like well.

Why don't you just have a conversation with them and you know, just try to talk him down and use You know de -escalation

techniques and everything else.

It's like this is coming from the kind of person who has never been in a fight before.

Right, right and never seen like the terrifying strength of someone who's like like a

terrifying man strength.

Right.

Mm -hmm like before and it's just a naive view of the world the way the world works and it's like I mean

being a man like growing up as a man like.

You know that there is a kind of you know stupidity.

And they're that like, you know, like there are there are evil people out there who are very very

strong.

You know, and if you've never been in that kind of relation that kind of situation where you're in fear for your life.

I guess it's not just an easy thing to subdue.

You know a 250 pound guy full of muscle, right?

Hey you stop it, you know, you know I saw this one video of like some European cop lady cops who were there's three

European lady cops who were basically, you know.

They with their little Batons or whatever.

They don't even have guns and they're trying to get this guy to you know.

Comply with them and get in the car and like in and you know.

They're just like get in the car get in the car, you know get in the car, you know, no, no.

And then he pushes him away, you know.

And then they come back and try to you know, ease him into the car and he pushes him away.

You know, then finally like some guy from the apartment who comes down there and grabs a guy.

That kind of thing where it's just like you're telling me they're nice words didn't.

Okay, so.

You know, I think we've I think.

We've talked a good bit about you know.

Should women be obeying their husbands.

Why should they be obeying their husbands?

I want to ask you kind of some more questions focused on

The application of this idea.

So I want to start with with just asking you kind of a broad what exactly?

Does this obeying look like when we're talking about a wife obeying their husband?

What exactly does God have in mind when he's giving that kind of command, what does it look like?

Yeah, so I think the idea of obedience is is to comply with or follow commands

restrictions wishes or instructions.

Now part of the problem is that like with the idea of obedience part of what I've

already said is that we typically think of submission essentially

as Something that Functionally should never happen if that makes sense.

Mm -hmm.

So like if a husband is leading his wife.

Well, she'll always agree with everything he says and so then we have like this servant leader kind of idea of like

you're you know.

Basically taking a word that's the opposite of leader and making it the definition of

leadership.

But but basically what one of the things that you have is this is this is a problem where you have a bunch of nice

guys who are basically trying to.

Like this is where the church is producing a bunch of nice guys who are basically, you know coming.

You know with every decision there is to make they're trying to love their wife.

Well, and what one of the things that they do is essentially they just come up their wife and they say hey, honey.

What do you think we should do, you know?

And that's what they call leadership, you know, and that's what we typically and that's what a lot of young guys are doing.

They're like, yeah, you know, I want to be a good husband, you know, I yeah I'm a leader in some sense or whatever.

But the way I'm gonna lead is by serving and trying to figure out what my wife wants.

And so what the way they approach every situation is essentially to ask her what she wants to do.

So it's like hey, honey, where do you want to eat today?

Right?

Honey, what do you think we should do about you know?

I have a couple jobs and what do you think we should do?

Like do you think I should do this one or I think I should do that one or whatever else, you know.

Or even if it's related to you know.

You know preferences.

Hey, what show would you like to watch honey, right?

Like.

Like what do you feel like doing, you know?

And so like the way that the husband leads in that kind of scenario is that they're always asking a wife what to make every

decision.

Essentially, right?

Mm -hmm.

And so then like, you know, what happens then is you basically train the wife to essentially be

like accustomed and used to.

Always getting to be the deciding voice and everything.

And then it's just like, you know.

When it comes to a situation where you really have a difference of opinion.

Like then, you know you communicate that and then she doesn't handle it.

Well, then then what you're told by the evangelical leaders today is that you must to be leading poorly,

right?

Yeah.

So it must be that you're doing something wrong because you know, if you'd loved your wife like Christ loved the church.

What wouldn't want to follow that?

So it's like well, what am I doing wrong?

She doesn't want to follow me.

It's like what?

It's like well, are you a leader or not?

You know, so like.

How it ended up for Jesus, you know.

It's like it, you know, if that's just the necessary and tell me never everything what woman wouldn't want to follow Jesus.

Well, the problem with that is they killed Jesus, right?

We all killed him.

So he loved us like Jesus loved us and we killed him.

We put him to death, you know.

So like it's not necessarily true that you know, if he loves your wife like Jesus, she'll want to follow

you.

But here's the thing.

So I think what it what obedience actually looks like is to comply with commands.

But then in your standard relationship, you know, your husband isn't giving any commands.

He isn't giving any direction.

He isn't giving any instruction at all in the moment.

He does like the moment he does.

Right.

Inevitably what's gonna happen is like how dare you sir, you know.

Who do you think you are?

Asking me to clean up the house while you're at work.

You know and normally it's like the thing is it's worded in the nicest possible way, right?

Hey, honey, you know you think you could maybe pick up a little bit.

Who do you think you are, you know, how dare you treat me like a child, you know.

Like in that is like how dare you treat me like a child and you know.

Don't you know that I have all this stuff to do and it's like oh then, you know.

Well, what do you what are you gonna do, honey, you know?

So the point though is just to say like what is obedience look like what does God have in mind?

I do think God has in mind a husband who is much more Active than your standard servant leader

type who has some sort of direction who has some sort of you know commands to give

constructions to give.

Whatever, you know and they don't have to be like worded in some sort of caveman way like, you know woman go.

You know make me a sandwich or something like that, right?

Right.

That's what people think, you know it.

When you think you know, you know, are you giving your wife commands?

Are you giving her instruction?

Are you giving her things to do?

Everyone goes there with it?

But I mean like you should be like hey, honey, here's what I want.

Yeah, I'm going to work today.

I could perfectly natural thing would be all right, you know, make sure that you.

You know mail the packages, you know.

Make sure that you.

You know, make sure you.

You know, we've let the dishes go a little bit.

Let's get the dishes clean today, you know.

You know.

One of the things that we need to do is like we're gonna have company coming coming over and so, you know make sure you're doing

this or that or whatever else and and All that and so I mean, I just think that you

know, hey, you know and make sure you read your Bible today.

I think that there should be like tangible Instructions that are given like like we have a Bible reading

plan that we're gonna follow we have this or that like here's what we're gonna.

Do you know make sure you you know have the kids?

Do their Bible reading today?

Like first thing when they wake up, you know, there's any number of things that you're gonna give that's gonna like be tangible

directions and these are commands that you're gonna give and.

Like, you know.

You'll know the state of your marriage if submission or obedience is actually there is if you dare to give any kind of

instruction Direction and you see what happens, you know, so so are you kind of so are you saying?

Basically if Husbands want if husbands want to lead

their wives Like Christ led then the natural reaction is your

wife should want to kill you.

Unless she has the Spirit of God inside of her, right.

Didn't want to kill Jesus.

Yeah, yeah unless but the thing is like it yeah, I mean like that's the thing it's it's.

There are any number of scenarios you can find yourself in so if you're married to an unbeliever.

Then like if you try to be a biblical leader, she will want to kill you and probably divorce you.

Mm -hmm.

And that really isn't your fault and you can't let her win, you know.

As far as I know is you have you have to keep on going, you know but then you know if you're you know

if you're in a scenario like Like the reality is God's designed the world in such a way that he

commands man to Lead and then he get he equips him to lead and he commands a woman to follow and he equips her to

follow.

But then because of the fall there's a fundamental conflict that's introduced into the sexes where the men want to be

passive, right?

They want to let their wives drive him around.

They want to watch their wives.

Tell them what to do.

You know.

They want to keep the woman happy because she has all the cards and you know.

Most of it's about.

They want to have sex and she's the one who holds the keys to that.

And so they do want to keep her happy and you know, so that maybe they can have some hope of you know.

Doing what they thought marriage was going to be about, you know kind of thing.

Yeah.

But mostly what you have is you have a bunch of passive men and then and but then like the the whole thing is that God has made

like Has cursed, you know the relationships in such a way that a woman's

desire will be to master her husband.

Fundamentally, that's what her sinful heart will tell her but then the problem is that if he lets her master him She'll despise

him and she'll hate him.

And so that's what that's the problem is that most guys think that the way to keep a happy wife is just to give her Whatever you want, but then

when you do that, she'll never want to have sex with you again.

It's the problem.

It's because she you're emasculated in her eyes.

I.

Basically.

Yes, if you want to use the mannish fear like.

Man.

Yeah.

But essentially like that's like a woman's looking for a man to like lead them and that's why you know.

Like they always go with the you know, like the nice guys finish last kind of thing, you know I'll be nice guys finish last

and they always go with the guys who are trashy and you know.

Treat him poorly because what they see in those guys is at least this guy isn't afraid of them and he's a leader right

now.

He may be a total self -centered leader, right?

Mm -hmm, but all you are, you know, nice guy is just a follower, you know.

Who's not going to provide her any tangible direction whatever and that's why she doesn't look at you as if you're you know.

Desirable to her.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that actually

Part of your answer was essentially saying I think if I remember correctly

Basically basically saying hey look We all obviously

Inherently reject God and everything that he's commanded we rebel against him and and part of what that

looks like for women is instead of instead of Submitting

to their husbands Their natural inclination is to want to rule over their

husbands and in so doing they're rejecting Something that God has commanded and that

means that they're rebelling against him and have you know incurred

Condemnation.

Right, right and and so the men aren't happy and the women aren't happy.

Nobody's nobody's happy.

It doesn't work out.

Well, and and what that leads me to is a question that I actually don't have on my on my list

here anywhere.

But I was thinking about it earlier while you were talking in it.

Essentially that question is you know.

For.

Even any of the Christian women who might have the audacity to have continued listening

past all of the.

The answers up to this point.

Is.

It is it wrong to say that that anyone who any woman who's

rejecting?

This.

This command that God's given that wives should obey their husbands.

Is it wrong to say that you know Christian or not?

Functionally, they They are rejecting what God has said to do

if they refuse to obey their husband and that should Give them pause when it comes to

how willing they are to actually Obey God himself.

Should should the read should the idea that.

You know, they might they might not want to obey their husbands.

Should that make them worried about Their relationship with God like hey if I'm not even

willing to obey my husband why in the world.

Would I think that I'm willing to obey God who's given the command to obey my husband?

Does that make sense what I'm asking?

Yeah, no.

Yeah.

That's essentially what Romans 13 says it says let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there's no Authority except

from God and those that exist have been instituted by God therefore whoever resists this or Resists the

authorities resists what God has appointed and those who will resist will incur judgment.

But I would say that in a lot of marriages a lot of Christian marriages There's there's a

problem that like a woman absolute like in most that she does not want to Submit

and obey she doesn't want to obey or submit and the meaning actual meaning of the word submit.

But then the problem is like and you know, you talk to a lot of ladies as it relates to this subject.

The the follow -up they say is submit to what?

Essentially so it's just like that.

He's not that what is he doing?

What does he ask me to do?

You know, he comes home every day and you know watch his TV or plays games or whatever else.

Like what does he ask me to do?

He's not asked me to do anything.

There's nothing to submit to there's functioning.

No leadership here, right?

And I mean, there's a kind of woman who might be saying that who wants like has like, you know.

Expectations that are maybe a bit unrealistic that you know the husband will come home and you know the only way he can be a faithful

husband is to Preach her and and in our sermon saying all the things that she wants him to say in the order

that she wants him to.

Order.

But I mean I think in the vast majority of situations kind of what was really happening is you have a bunch of passive men Who you know are

really functionally not exercising much leadership in any way possible.

And then the only extras the only kind of you know leadership there Even remotely trying to is

hey, you know, the Bible tells us to have sex, you know.

You know, it's just like well, I think that's all you care about dude, you know, so.

So like there's no guys.

You're not off the hook.

Yeah.

I.

You know if all you're doing is the servant leader thing where you know.

You basically just asking her opinion about you know what she wants to do and every single scenario, you know.

You what are you doing to actually later and like so maybe you need to get started.

And I would say though like once.

Once.

Here's the thing once things go that way.

Right and.

You develop a pattern over a you know.

Substantial length of time of just doing that kind of thing just if mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy was figure out what

she wants.

Yes, you know, I don't want to deal with the craziness that comes from not giving her what she wants kind of thing.

You know, then what happens though?

Is it it it it is a substantial adjustment that will occur the moment you start

actually taking initiative and you know.

Providing tangible direction in your home.

It's like well, who are you where have you been at all times like well, forgive me I've been a terrible husband.

So let's start now.

Right.

Yeah, and then it's gonna get worse before it gets better for sure, you know I'll get worse before and you're gonna have to face it, you know.

Mm -hmm.

So this is a mess you created in part, you know, I'm not saying that all of that I'm not saying that there's not scenario like

I think that there's a lie to say that there's some sort of scenario that like.

Anytime, you know a lady is resistant to her husband's leadership.

It's all you know failures on his part.

That's not true.

But at the same time and like it it's a mix of both, you know.

Yeah, and they should you know.

Yep, and they and they should.

Husband should probably expect a period of time when you're trying to Correct these issues where

maybe your wife does want to crucify you.

You were sure I mean, but I think a woman who really wants to submit to her husband like, you know.

If that's the scenario, so there's different scenarios if that kind of woman who really wants to submit to her husband.

Now I've talked to women like that, you know, and they say yeah, but he's not leading me in any way.

You know, there's nothing to submit to it's just like well, honey.

This isn't all that hard to think about right?

Mm -hmm.

Like what to do like I I want to believe you that that's just you know, you would love to

submit to him, you know.

But then I just start asking him like if you're in that scenario, just start asking him, you know, hey.

You know husband.

What do you think we should do about this scenario?

You know, what do you think we should do about this scenario because I want to follow you, you know.

And I'm not I'm not saying it's all up to her to fix the relationship.

I'm not saying that I'm just saying that like if you're in that scenario, like You can make it real hard

for a guy to lead or you can make it easy, you know.

And and you know like and then on the other end, it's like she won't listen to anything I'm saying well, it's like well, you know,

why don't you?

Why don't you pray for her and why don't you start, you know asking her to do things?

I just keep at it, you know, yeah ask her to do things that you know, she should have no

Problem doing it pick battles that are not just obviously self -motivated, you know.

Mm -hmm, like make it pick the right battles, you know and just stick stick to your guns, you know.

Hey, we're gonna go to church every week.

I'm gonna expect you to church every week, you know come hell or high water.

We're gonna go to church every week.

Mm -hmm, you know, we're not sleeping in anymore.

We're gonna go to church every week.

So, you know start that start there at the spiritual things and see what happens, you know.

Yeah, I can and and then you know, if it's like hey, you're just being selfish like how in the world is that selfish?

You know about that, you know, so, you know if that makes sense, but anyways.

So.

So should women, you know in keeping with this topic of what exactly does

You know a wife obeying her husband look like.

You know okay, so I Drive a school bus as one of the

jobs that I do and so, you know, obviously I work with children for a few hours out of most

days and one of the things I've noticed is Very few of them really want

to do what I say.

They would rather do whatever they want to do.

And when I when I tell them to do something they typically get frustrated and you know

normally if they don't do what I asked them to do and If they do if they do actually

obey, you know What I've told them to do whether it's you know, sit down or stop, you know.

Stop yelling or whatever it is.

They typically do it with kind of a begrudging attitude, right?

They're they're they're gonna do it, but they're not happy about it.

So.

With this kind of topic, you know, we're talking about really the same idea.

Like the wives should be obeying their husbands, you know.

Like my students should be obeying me when it when it comes to riding on the bus, right?

And so the question ultimately is in obeying their

husbands.

Should the wives You know actually like in their hearts be happy

to obey their husbands or is it fine to just Basically say hey, you know what?

I don't like the way it is, but it is the way it is.

So I've just got to do it.

Is it better for the wife to say?

Hey?

No, I actually am I'm glad and joyful to To

receive commands from my husband and then obey them to the best of my ability.

One of the things that's funny here, okay, so If you think about Hebrews 13 7 17 it says obey

your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who have to give an account and.

It says let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that would be of no advantage to you, right?

Like the idea of let them do this with joy and not with groaning.

Essentially, don't make it hard, you know, don't don't do it with a bad attitude.

Yeah, make it be a source of joy make it instead of groaning, but notice how you know every every authority relationship.

What is the same words that come up?

They obey your leaders submit to them, right?

Yeah, that's the same word in every case.

Yeah, and so but You know, I think there's two.

There's there's there's two components to obedience one component is to do like the external behavior

and Then there's a second component which is to have a heart that Longs to obey essentially.

So I think I Don't know if it was I think it's Piper who's always

talking about the motive mattering the motive matter like, you know Desiring God and all that right?

Yeah, I can't remember who gave this scenario but someone gave a scenario of like a child basically

like a parent telling a child, you know, sit down on the chair and You know be quiet or

whatever right and then child like is sitting down on the On the

Just sit down on the chair, you know.

And the child sitting on the chair and looks up at the adult and says I'm sitting down on the outside.

But I'm standing up on the inside, you know.

In other words, you know, I'm only doing this because you're commanding me to but I really hate that you have the audacity.

Or dare to tell me to do this.

I mean that that kind of thing is not the kind of thing that honors God but at the end of the day I mean, there's

there's there's two components, right?

So there's there's the external and the internal and it'd be far better for you to you

know.

Hold, you know.

Hold your nose grit your teeth and do the right thing.

Then it would be just to say like to throw your hands up at the air and say, you know.

You know what?

You're like if I'm not gonna be able to do this with a good attitude then forget it, right?

Like why not I mean so the point there is just to say that I think sometimes in life you have to obey

with a bad attitude.

Long enough to where you can get to where you obey with a good attitude.

Mm -hmm.

That's the way it works, right?

Yeah, so there's no virtue in obeying with a good at.

I mean, there's no like, you know, it's not as if like this is.

Like it's great to obey with a bad attitude.

But you know, what do you do you say Lord forgive me my horrible attitude help me.

I'll obey with a good attitude.

I'm gonna do what my husband says, you know.

Mm -hmm.

I don't like it.

But you know.

Instead of just focusing on how much I hate this and how much I despise this and how much I just detest this I

need to be reminded that you know.

You're gonna hold my husband accountable for the decisions that he makes and not me.

And so I pray for him that you are merciful to him and compassion.

And I think the more that you know Wives could actually pray for their husband is in those moments instead of going frustrated and have you

know and realize it like Lord.

Like you're gonna hold them to a stricter judgment than me and I'm scared for him and I pray that you would you know, be

merciful to him and and You know forgive him for he knows not what he does, you know kind of thing.

Yeah, the more that you do that the more that you soften your heart and it's not just this like I'm not getting my way.

I'm gonna scream on the inside kind of thing and just be frustrated.

It's like just get your eyes off yourself and think about what's actually happening here.

But yeah, I think there's there's obviously two components there.

There's the external the internal and for the obedience to be complete it needs to be both but you know, I

there's no kind of scenario where it's just like.

You know people think people think well, you know if I if I don't want to do it and I do it.

Anyways, and that's being a hypocrite right because it's inauthentic and I'm living my truth and all that and it's like no.

That's that's what you call being up.

Like that's what you call integrity, right?

Integrity is doing the right thing even when you don't want to that's integrity, right?

But then like God can cleanse your heart to such a way that you you love What is good and you

hate what is evil?

Yeah, and that's it.

You should be praying for him to do.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, um.

Another kind of application question.

You know, obviously we're talking about.

Husbands are pretty much, you know, they're commanded essentially to be making the decisions for the

family ultimately, you know and.

And that way they would be leading their families.

So does that mean that you know wives should never be included in?

The decision -making process if if wives are going to obey this command from God to obey their

husbands.

Does that mean they're essentially barred from?

Helping make decisions by God.

So husband could never go to his wife and say hey, here's the situation I'm gonna I'm gonna make the

decision.

But what do you what do you think?

Is that essentially off -limits now?

No, well, let me give a qualified no, okay, okay, I want to give a qualified no.

If a husband is the leader of his home.

What that means is that I think in the vast majority of scenarios.

Like if he's leading like so part of what's happened is like with the whole like submission idea

like you get rid of the idea of obedience you get rid of like this is a.

Like a real authoritative relationship in any way.

It's just like a tiebreaker and real big scenario kind of thing.

What you what you don't have in that kind of arrangement is a natural day -to -day.

Expectation of tangible commands or leadership or direction within a home does that make sense?

Yeah.

So basically you have kind of what big moment submission, but then most of it's just laws a fair.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, free for all kind of thing.

All right, so but in a healthy like biblical home there's gonna be like, you know

20 commands a day.

Kind of thing right?

There's just a normal part of you know leadership that like what happened with any, you know.

So like just imagine you're at a work scenario right where the boss comes in and like here's what we're doing today guys,

right?

Mm -hmm.

All right, so we got a.

You know.

We needed it, you know 20 100 computers to go out today, you know you you're assigned to this you're assigned to

this.

You're assigned to this.

We need to make sure that we are.

You know doing all the testing we need to do and everything else.

Like that's being a leader right and we understand that in the secular way I get a boss a boss comes in and he says here's what's

happening and you know, let's execute the plan.

You know, yeah, you understand that in a basketball team, you know, here's the plan.

We're doing guys.

All right, you know and like all that leadership involves a lot a lot of

Instructions, right?

Mm -hmm.

Thank you.

There's no way that all right guys.

Well, what do you think we should do today?

Huh?

Wow, what do you think guys you think we should do layup drills or you know do suicides?

What do you think? What do you think?

You know, I think we should rest today.

Yeah, do you want to just like, you know go out there and just free -for -all, you know, like what do you think?

You know, like whatever is happening there.

It's not a coach right and it's not a leader.

It's not leadership.

And so I think within a normal home.

One of the things that should be happening is that there should be a lot of just tangible.

Here's the plan.

Here's what we're doing today.

Here's the Here's here's the goal.

Here's what here's our plan for the day.

Here's what we're doing kind of stuff that I mean.

That should just be the natural state of affairs right to it, but then I don't think that like,

you know that when you're executing that standard kind of plan.

Really like if you're if at every single point like, you know.

You're you're the basketball coach on the team and like you're you know.

Your players are basically looking at you and saying well, do you think this is the best idea to do layups

before we do?

Yeah.

To do layups before we do Sprints today or you know, do you think are you think sprints before layups is good to

do?

And don't you think we should be skirmishing a little bit more and you know, I feel like we've been lacking in skirmishing lately and.

And you know We don't have enough free time during our practices where we can just kind of practice the things that are unique to us.

And you know if every time you're kind of exercising leadership, it turns into some sort of discussion,

right?

At some point it's just like hey, we got to make a plan.

Okay?

Like like this is not a significant like this is not a morally significant.

These are not morally significant things.

Right, right like like what order we do like, you know, do we do Bible study first? you know in

the day or do we do like a lot of that stuff is just stuff that doesn't need to be discussed and If you're having to discuss

literally every decision you make in order to live with your wife and understanding way.

There's a sense in which it's like you have a like a leader follower problem.

That's on your hands.

Does that make sense?

But you know like I think like if a husband a wife.

One of the things that they should do to mitigate like what should happen I think is like in 99 of the

scenarios a wife should just be following.

But like like her impulse is just to follow and one of the questions she should be asking at that point.

Is this like is this is this worth?

Having like it's just so significant of a problem that we have to discuss it right now.

Kind of thing right and if I have to discuss it every time like am I really all that submissive, right?

All right, so there's that but I think what I think the husband should be doing is like having regular times

within the home.

We're.

Like everything's on the table, right?

So one of the things that my wife and I have done over the years is what's called a conference table and it's just a Time where we get together and say hey what's going on

with the relationship and let's discuss things, right?

And so.

One of the things that you know, like a weekly thing you say hey, what's what how we're doing, you know?

What what's what needs to change and you know, I think that's like those moments of the moments where you discuss.

You know how the routines going and how the plans are going and it's like hey I want to hear what you have to say.

What do you think can be improved upon?

What do you think we're doing poorly?

What do you think we can do wiser, you know kind of thing?

What do you have you have any concerns?

But what what doesn't need to be happening is on a day -to -day basis.

It's like, you know.

All right, honey, you know like like you're in the middle of the parking lot and you're trying to park.

Yeah.

It's like honey, don't you think we should park at that closer parking spot over there, you know, it's like well.

No, I don't like we're right.

I'm I'm pulling into this one right here.

It's like but don't isn't it nicer to it's like Yeah, but I'm not trying to get in a wreck and run over so.

Right now.

Like don't you love me, you know, you're not living with me and it's like no honey.

This is not the moment, you know.

We'll talk about parking strategies, you know later, you know, but this is not the moment for It but

so so I think that like there should be some regular time like where you do discuss things.

And particularly when you have like big decisions to make that's where it's just like, you know.

You may discuss them for a few weeks not all day long every day.

But you have a time you're pointed where it's like hey this discussion time.

Let's do it kind of thing if that makes sense but so yeah, no, I think absolutely a good leader

is going to.

I think a good leader is gonna say like I Think a good leader is gonna take a lot of

initiative and it's gonna run a play.

And I think if at every point you're trying to run a play right it you have to discuss it.

It's like hey, we need to chill, you know, let me let me run the play well, we'll review that later like nothing like,

you know, this is just This is this is not a more most of them are not moral, you know.

If that makes sense kind of things are just huge things.

So is that helpful?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's good.

So.

There's obviously going to be a lot of pushback to this idea.

We've stated that ad nauseum at this point but one of the ways we can kind of

mitigate against that is there's obviously there's going to be a lot of Assumptions

made and there's going to be a lot of people who point to examples of poor

leadership from a husband and and basically use those examples to try and.

You know nullifier or neuter.

The things that we're saying and and push back against them trying to prove that they're actually not true what we're saying

and and so why don't you just take some time to.

Maybe dispel some of those arguments by just talking about what exactly a

wife obeying their husband Does not look like.

What does it not look like according to Scripture?

Yeah, sure.

So.

Yeah that objection, you know, I think that objection of hey, you know, well this sounds

dangerous and this sounds.

You know, this could be abused like I've been I've been teaching on the subject long enough to

know that that's just kind of a standard thing that people throw out.

You know women will even throw that out, you know at church like as you're teaching, you know.

Hey, hey, this sounds dangerous.

This should be abused and.

And everything else and and I think anytime like I'm like men will do it too, which is one of the things that's really funny.

Like I mean, I've been in any number of scenarios where I just talk about authority relationships and just a straightforward way and I

talk about the rules of how authority relationships work and the more that a person talks talks about authority relationships and more suspicious people

really get.

And it's just like because I just don't think they have a category for what authority relationships actually are.

You know at my last church I preached a sermon once because it was next it we were going through first Peter and like

the title of of the sermon when we were going through first Peter his wives obey your husband's right and.

I'm sure everyone was very appreciative.

We had people that would stop like we put our sermon titles on the marquee and we had people drive by and like.

Take pictures of it laughing, you know.

Okay.

Like that that we'd have the and we had people calling in and complaining and everything else.

It was really funny.

Yeah, I almost wondered if we're gonna get like a news article written on it, but.

But now I think what does it not mean?

What is it?

Yeah.

I think that there's like there's obviously a kind of person who wants to say well because this is can be

can be abused like You said therefore don't do it.

But that's I mean everything can be abused like the question is not it it can it be a bit everything can be

abused, right?

And it can be abused in every single direction.

So and it doesn't really like, you know.

If in a matriarchal society that we're living in right now that matriarchal authority is being abused,

right?

Yeah.

It's abused.

So like the issue is it?

Whoever in charge it can be abused.

That's the point but God obviously has made authority relationships and and

they you know.

Our son the way we submit to those reflects something about how we relate to a God as well.

But yeah, obviously they can be abused.

I think that the There's many I

Think that there have been many men in when when America was more of a patriarchal

situation, right?

Mm -hmm.

Like I don't think that this is happening on mass right now.

We're just like We are dealing with the specter of the past or something along those lines.

But I think that there's many men in patriarchal kindness.

You know in the patriarchal relationships of the past who essentially thought of submission as basically, you know.

Do whatever I say no matter what I say without a word, you know.

Almost like a woman need to be seen and not heard thing.

Don't ever challenge me.

Don't ever you know rebuke me.

You know in those kind of context you often have like people who are asking, you know, is it okay for a woman to?

You know.

Rebuke her husband.

Is that appropriate or is that not very submissive?

Is it?

Okay for a woman to.

You know ask her husband questions about the decisions these make and I think that you know that that

That kind of like self -centered leadership that doesn't want any input that doesn't want any suggestions.

That's basically just do what I say and shut up, you know kind of thing is a is a

Is a real problem, but I would say it's a it's a it's a real problem.

But I don't know that that's really anymore what's happening on the ground.

What's happening on the ground right now is the exact opposite is basically do what the woman says or she'll scream, you know.

Right without question without challenge and don't you know?

It's the opposite because it's like men are absolutely afraid to be rebuke women, right?

You think I'm kind of swung.

End of the spectrum.

Right, right.

Like, you know you like the the standard male today in this society is just deathly terrified to ever

disagree with a woman.

You know, it's insane, you know like and so but all that can be true in the reverse as well.

And I mean, I know of some you know Relationships that are like that where

the pig -headed male just basically just you know uses like husband -wife authority basically just you know

deal with his wife harshly dominate his wife, you know have a you know, submissive kind of slave that does

whatever he says and and Basically without question and you know, basically what he's doing is enforcing his

selfish will upon everyone so I don't think a godly leader is going to be the type of guy who is

Looking at his authority in such a way that is self -centered or self -serving and you know

as I tried to lead my own family.

That's something that I've constantly.

Well, I've said to my wife over the years.

I've just said hey look, you know, I'm I'll never want to use my authority just to get my own

selfish way.

And if I do that, I want you to call me on it.

But I'm commit I'm committed to not doing that and I think if you look at the testimony of the way I

actually lead you can see that I'm not doing that at all.

You know, like that's not what's happening.

Like and because I'm committed to not doing that and you know, I don't want to ever ask you to do

something.

Like or use my authority to command you to do something that it's not something that God says.

It's just something I want, you know.

Like I want to have a biblical reason.

I'm gonna tell you the biblical reason why I'm doing that.

But then that means that you know, if a man's gonna do that kind of thing He actually has to actually know what the Bible says,

right?

Yeah.

Like, you know, and that's the problem is that I think a lot of men don't know the Bible.

So they don't even know what they should be commanding and then what comes out is just kind of a list of selfish preferences.

You know, right?

And so that's the problem.

But whatever that is, it doesn't undermine the basic point, you know God's designed it to be the way it is and yeah,

but I would say that you know a husband obviously can't ask his wife to send and Mm -hmm and a husband

I would say he can't ask his wife to do things that are beyond his authority to do either.

Like what?

What's an example of that?

Well, yeah, I'll give you an absurd example just to prove a point but.

Let's say that a wife a husband were to you know, ask his wife to sleep in a cage every

night.

Like.

With a dog collar on her neck just to show that she's under his authority, right?

Uh -huh.

Would that be a sin for her to do that?

No, I guess I guess not.

I mean is there anything Bible that says that that can't be her bed, you know, I

Guess not.

I mean you may make an argument, you know, like the marriage bed or something like that.

Okay, but I mean like you understand what I'm saying like a husband can like do absurd things like that that

may not.

They're just like hey, you know, that's Not within your authority as a leader.

You know, I mean even something like stupid like, you know, like, you know in our house.

The only color that you're allowed to wear is red kind of thing or something like that.

That is the only color at some point.

I think that kind of guy.

I don't know that those kind of guys exist there are guys who are doing things not maybe to that extreme, but.

Yeah, there there are some out there, you know, there's the world's has enough people.

But I mean I think in a scenario like that.

It's like hey, do you have a really have the authority to tell me what colors to wear?

Like I'm only allowed to wear this color every day.

This is the only color I have to wear the same outfit every single day, you know, like this is.

What it was this about is this about the Bible or is this about just you're being a megalomaniac, you know yeah at this point and

so I think.

Those are just some silly examples of things that.

But I mean I think you know with related to the pandemic and and stuff we need to have a.

You know some sort of understanding of what the government is actually allowed to do to right.

So is the government allowed to tell us what we have to put in our body.

Is that was it designed by God to do that?

Do we just in some simplistic way say obey the governing authorities?

Whatever they say they tell us we have to put these chemicals in our body that might harm us.

It's like well, okay.

Well, I guess we better do it because they say so even though they're not tested and whatever else I mean if the government were to step in and say hey

every house has just you know Have taco Tuesday every week, you know, it's like it really do you have the authority to

tell us what the cook on which day?

You know and I think in in a certain sense.

Like there's God's given a husband a sphere of authority and part of like he could just you know, go well beyond

that sphere of authority like With some of the decisions that he would make like

in that he's just you know, commanding your rational Unreasonable things, you know, yeah

like honey, you know, I want you to.

You know work out four hours a day.

And.

Homeschool, you know all the kids and you know everything else cuz you know bodies the temple and all that, you know.

So four hours are working out a day.

I want you to get up at 2 in the morning every day and work out till 6 and here's your schedule and at some point.

You're just like hey, sorry.

No, you know I can't.

Like this is beyond what you're you're commanded to do here.

You know, yeah.

Another Pushback that I've seen from a lot of people who really don't agree with us is

they argue that In order for what we're saying to be true it has to

mean that women are now.

In.

Less than men right though.

They'll use words like inferior or Less valuable or you know less capable or

you know, however, they worded a lot of different ways.

But ultimately they end up having a problem with the idea.

That.

That women need to submit and they say that it is somehow devaluing women.

So what's your response to an objection like that?

And basically our women inferior does submission make women inferior to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well.

Inferior is one of those words that has multiple meanings.

Which is the problem so?

To be inferior is like there's one, you know there's a meaning of the word inferior that is essentially to be

lower in rank or station or degree and.

In that way are women inferior to men?

Well the fact that they're in an authority relationship they're lower in rank or station than their husbands.

So are they and does submission make them inferior?

Well, yes in terms of that definition of the word.

But then often like inferior communicates to people less important or valuable or worthy or something like that

in Which case like are a woman inferior in you know stipulated term B, you know

sense less valuable.

No, right.

So everyone's equally valuable or in the eyes of God as far as that goes, right?

So everyone's equally human.

But there are authority relationships that are there and so yes like in terms of the authority relationship

itself.

The husband is a superior to an inferior.

Related to authority but not in lady related to value worth or whatever else and so I

so I think sometimes when people say that they're.

They're speaking better than they know, right?

What I can that's the very well, that's the very thing.

That's the sticking point.

It's like I refuse to obey or submit because that makes me feel like a subordinate and it's like well you

are.

No.

So get used to it, right?

Yeah, just it's accepted.

That's the way it is just like a cadet is a subordinate to a commanding officer.

Just like you know church members are subordinate to church leaders like in that way Just like citizens are

subordinate to Kings, you know all that like yes.

That's the way it works.

If you feel that like you feel like there's a imbalance in authority.

It's because there is Yes, you know, that's the way it works.

But then Like like that doesn't do that shouldn't dehumanize you like you're not less valuable

intrinsically, you know in terms of worth or anything else.

Like if it does like I mean, I like we're all You know subordinate to Christ, aren't we?

Yes.

And so if that makes us feel somehow less than you know We're cutting off any hope of salvation we have for

ourself and thinking that way, right?

I mean like like there's Like God's designed authority relationships for a good they're not for

evil like they're not to do us harm as far as that goes.

So.

So, yep, okay.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's a good place for us to Wrap up this discussion.

I think there's some more questions that can be asked that we'll probably do in some Midweek episodes, but

as a you know main episode, I feel like we've had a pretty good conversation and hopefully this is

kind of a Encouraging conversation for a lot of people who

Would agree with what the Bible is saying here and then you know for others who? might

have gone into this episode and disagreed but been patient enough to listen to everything

that You and I have to say hopefully Hopefully they can.

They've kind of been convinced that hey maybe maybe the way that I've been viewing all this is

not been correct and and I've been disobedient to what God has said and and so.

You know, that's our hope.

Anyways, is that this is a helpful conversation? for you guys and and so.

So I think this has been good and and we want to thank all you guys for listening and we'll see you guys next time.

This has been another episode of Bible bashed.

We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible bashed

and share our podcast With your friends and on social media, please Reach out to us with your questions

pushback and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at Bible bashed

podcast at gmail .com.

Now go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be

perpetually offended by your every move.