Submission: Should Wives Obey Their Husbands Like a Child Would Obey Their Parents?

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Welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to ask. We are your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age-old question Should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent now.

We've had a lot of pushback from plenty of the episodes that we've put out over the last several weeks and normally the pushback comes from Pagans from you know, the unsaved people who don't understand the Bible who don't Recognize that there's a God that they should submit themselves to.

They Want to rebel at every turn so obviously they reject the things that we have to say that are coming from clear scripture references. But I suspect that a topic like this should wives submit to their husband should they obey their husbands?

I've seen plenty of times where even Christians push back against this idea. They get really riled up by this thought that Women should actually be obeying their husbands. And so Tim, why don't we just start off by you explaining?

What the impulse is behind the wording of our title question should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent?

Well, it is outrageously offensive. Title as far as that goes.

But.

Yeah, well, maybe we'll just Comment on the obedience part in general the idea of a wife obeying her husband is an idea. That really is not a new idea. The traditional wedding vows as far as that is concerned used to be phrased to include the idea of obedience.

And so a bride would say, you know, I take the you know husband to be my wedded husband to have and to hold from this day forward for better or worse for Richer for poor and sickness and health to love to cherish and to obey till death.

Do us part according to God's holy ordinance. I there to Give thee my trough.

Trough.

Whatever that yeah, that's the traditional what how wedding vows as far as that goes and this vows We've used for for a long time for a long period of time now the obedience part is the kind of is the thing that's Fashion and now I think you have different types of people in the church.

And so the pagans are obviously going to be offended by any idea of submission in general. The idea of submission is a dirty word. You don't you know, don't go there. Don't don't say that but then. The eye of the the idea of obedience now, that's that's the kind of thing that that does distinguish Christians who are broadly under you know.

What might be described as the complementarian camp or the patriarchy camp or whatever else? So the so the idea of obedience is an idea that's you uniquely offensive. Even to the type of Christian to the vast majority of Christians who would consider themselves Complementarian or who believe that there are biblical roles who believe that a wife would submit to their husband now.

The problem is obviously that with the rise of you know a lot of the teaching on servant leadership and things like that the idea of submission really is an idea that is not very clearly understood and I would say for for most Christians the idea that a wife should submit to their husband to the ones who Believe that that a wife should submit I would say for most of them The idea of submission functionally is this kind of arbitrary thing that God? Commands women he could have you know made men be the one who have to submit but it's kind of like a tiebreaker.

Scenario where if there's ever a tiebreaker then you know, I guess The wife should follow her husband so long as you know, he's not asking her to do anything that's too difficult and she thinks it's reasonable and Everything else maybe you know, let him have the tiebreaking vote because you know, you're at a stalemate and all that.

But then the corresponding kind of teaching that goes along with that is that functionally, you know I can't tell me tell you how many times I've heard pastors Who would would basically, you know be saying that a husband should I mean they would never say it in exactly this way but that's this is exactly what they're saying, you know, I I'm always nervous if I'm in a situation where my wife doesn't agree.

So functionally like the idea of submission is just this. You know mythical unicorn a white elephant kind of thing that should functionally never happen. So if you're leading, well Your wife should always just willingly follow and there should be never a situation where she staunchly disagrees with anything you say.

And so I would say the idea of submission is a very weak idea, but then the church Historically has always understood Submission to be in a lot of ways synonymous with obedience and and there's Bible verses that we'll talk about over the course of the podcast that deal with that kind of subject particularly first Peter 3 That use the word obey in a very specific way as it relates to the wife.

And so I think it's helpful to really reclaim this idea of obedience as it relates to what we're even talking about with submission and there's a lot of ideas that go with with the broader category of submission or obedience that we really need to talk talk about and so Basically the short answer is the idea of submission is is an idea that is very Misunderstood and and obedience is a clear idea today.

It gets that the nature of the kind of relationship we're talking about.

Okay, so now now that we've talked about why this is going to be probably pretty controversial even for the Confessing Christians who listen to our podcast I can. I can practically hear some of them screaming even now.

No.

Well, basically.

But I'll go ahead and ask you, you know, what's the answer to this question? Should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent?

This is one of those questions is asked in a way that is so outrageous, but then logically when you actually. When you actually think about what you're communicating if you don't just emote if you don't emote.

Then one of the things that you realize is that I mean obedience is obedience, right? I mean obedience is obedience. It doesn't matter who does the obedience whether it's a you know, a servant to a master whether it's a you know a citizen to a king whether it's a child to a parent whether it's a wife to a husband the idea of obedience is An idea that it's a concept that fits into many different types of relationships.

So, I mean essentially the idea of obedience no matter what the kind of relationship is is the idea Basically do what you're told, right? Mm-hmm so when you think about it that way like the to obey is to is for like a person in.

A.

With a person who is in an authority relationship where there's a person in authority over them to obey is to do what this person who is an authority over you is telling you to do and so there's no difference functionally between how a citizen would obey King or a wife would obey a husband or a children would obey a parent.

There's no difference like it's the same act. It's just there's different types of relationships that demand that if that makes sense. So so the simple answer the question is well, obviously, yes if the word obedience means anything if that makes sense.

But then what's that what's offensive about that? Is that instantaneously? What people hear is, you know, you're you're you're equating women with children or something. And it's like well no.

With.

I don't understand why your mind goes there. I don't understand and I think a part, you know part of like What's happening is is that something strange has happened when your mind goes there? You're saying a wife is a child and like a wife's relationship with her husband is a parent-child relationship.

It's like no, it's just there's a feature in a parent-child relationship. That's also the same in a husband-wife relationship one feature. There's a lot of other things that make up the relationship to make a wife Relationship with a husband totally different than a parent-child relationship, but as it relates to that one area of obedience There's no different.

I mean, there's no like obedience is obedience as it is obedience if that makes sense. So obedience is always the same. It's the same thing now the reason I think why You know, it's offensive is in part because I think when it comes right down to it I think the idea that a wife should obey her husband is offensive period.

Do you understand what I mean? It's just an offensive idea because like we're used to thinking of submission as something that's totally not obedience at all and so I think the real like offense is being taken because We don't actually like the idea of obedience right period right if that makes sense, yeah, I remember.

You know back years ago. I I had a job where I worked with the guy who was I guess I think he was National Guard Reserve. Something like that where he only had to go a few weeks out of the year for different training events.

Whatever they call him and and the rest of the year he was basically just a normal US citizen. Who could work a normal job. And I remember one time we had a conversation of he was a Christian and we had a conversation about you know, the relationships with our wives and and How they worked and you know.

Like when it came down to application, how did we make decisions? As different family units and it's funny because I told him that the way that my wife and I Do things is essentially. You know, I'm the one who's making who's making the final decisions on.

Not necessarily every single thing sometimes I delegate but on on most things I am the one making the final decision and there is no hey, let's compromise or or we're not going to Agree or do anything?

It's just I'm gonna make this final decision and I might hear what you have to say. But then it's ultimately up to me and now keep in mind I'm telling this to a guy who's from the military who who understands this kind of relationship.

Very well, right. I mean your his whole job is centered around.

Authority structure. Obeying your commanding officer, right, right.

But but then when I told him this about my wife and I he just looked at me. Like I was I was a total idiot, you know, and now he was not, you know. We were we're friends and so he was totally nice and respectful.

But you know, he pushed back against what I was saying and was essentially like well, hey, I don't I don't do that with my wife. I like to you know, try and treat my wife as an equal and and I was basically just one, you know.

Wondering well, hey, why doesn't you know? Why doesn't the military do it that way then if it's so wrong and and you know seemingly like an evil thing to do to Run your family that way. Why does the military do it?

Are they evil and there wasn't really a good response to that? But I just found it so interesting that this guy who is very, you know familiar with understood authority. Yeah, and and loved it. Honestly, I mean, I mean he loved that it was so.

That it was so Succinct you can make decisions very quickly, you know. And efficient you had to show respect to authority and and he really liked showing respect to authority when it came to the military.

But then when it came to his own family unit, it was just a totally foreign concept.

Well, we live in the matriarchy right now. We live in a matriarchal society. So the rules are changed, but I mean like this word obey, you know. Just look it up it look it up the word obey means to comply with or follow the commands Restrictions wishes or instructions of and so I mean that's like what I'm trying to say.

And and I mean is that's true of any authority relationship to comply with or follow the commands Restrictions wishes or instructions of like a wife has to obey her husband to comply with or follow the commands.

Just like a child would have to obey a parent just like you know A cadet would have to obey their commanding officer to comply with it follow the commands restrict. Like the I mean the thing is obedience is obedience.

It's obedience, right? It's just it is what it is. Like that's what the concept means. This is what the word means. And so the question is is that an appropriate word to use for a husband-wife relationship?

It's like the question is not like Like, you know is that comparison, you know between a husband a wife and a parent and child. Like exact in every way the question is is the word obedience the same in any authority relationship?

And I think the problem is we live in a Christian culture right now that that has defined submission in such a Empty way that it doesn't like that. It feels like a wife should be doing something very different than obedience.

And that's the that's the problem like the words offensive is the word right but the concept is it's like isn't this true of any Authority relationship yes or no.

Mm-hmm.

And so then is a husband and wife and authority relationship and there are other features of authority relationships that are parallel in Across the all the different relationships, right? Right, if that makes sense, right?

So so like just think about it this way. Harrison so like ask the question this way like should a Should a cadet obey a commanding officer like a citizen should obey a kink.

Yes.

But it doesn't feel near as offensive does it. No.

Why. I mean, I think it's just Culturally acceptable, you know, right? Yeah.

So but in those two comparisons like are they the same relationship like a citizen to a king as a cadet? No, there's differences. But what's the same is the obedience part, right? Yeah. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah, so you should be able to do that with any type of authority relationship out there and Make the comparisons without all the offense if you actually understand there's something parallel in each one.

Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Okay. All right go for it. Um.

So.

Okay, maybe to the surprise of some of The people listening the answer is actually yes. Wives should obey their husbands like a child would obey. Like a child would obey their parent. So I know you kind of addressed this a little bit and the opening question.

Well, you know why the impulse behind the wording of this title question, but could you just explain a little more? Why exactly it is that? Wives should be obeying their husbands.

Yeah, I mean I think There's a variety of reasons. I mean the Bible teaches it in various ways. So There's a biblical Passages just like direct biblical passages. One of them would be first Peter three, which basically uses that sort of language.

So there's that do you want? Are you asking for biblical evidence? Or are you asking for?

God's.

Purpose behind the biblical evidence. Does that make sense? No, I.

Wanted. I want to talk about both but for right now, I'm just asking you why should wives Obey their husbands from a biblical perspective. Like are there specific commands? Are we just making?

Yeah, the biblical evidence then for that. Yeah, well, I think first Peter three is a good a great place to go that just talks about this very thing. So first Peter three says likewise Wives. First Peter three one likewise wives would be subject to your own husbands.

So even if some do not obey the word They notice how husbands obey to right? Mm-hmm. Okay, but that doesn't you know.

No one seems to get anything. Are you saying husbands are actually wives?

I.

Mean.

Wait, isn't it funny though? I mean like everyone obeys God and everyone obeys his word and then none of us get all indignant about it. All right, as far as that goes, but so obedience. I mean like obedience is a good thing like The idea of obedience is a good thing and any kind of authority relationship and the Bible is going to entail impedance.

Like that's just the way it works, you know, but wives be subject to your own husband. So even if some do not obey the word they may be one without a word by the conduct of your wife now. Notice how like how it starts with this likewise wives be subject this be subject language.

To be subject is to be an individual who's placed under the authority or control of someone. It's the language of kingship if that makes sense. So when you think about what's happening there you have We're we're we're used to talking about The the idea of submission but in first Peter you have a Greek word, that's basically hoop hoop.

It has the minnow a.

Yes, we're all very familiar with that word. You should be yes, yes.

Who. Potassium and I. Now that's a word basically in this context. So that basically is being translated as be subject meaning. I mean, it's like a is king language is king language is. Like a subject is a individual who is, you know placed under the authority of an authority figure, right?

And so are you tell it so are you telling me that when I see the people on Twitter, you know, use it using slang saying Hey guys, you need to find yourself a woman who treats you like a king. They're actually they're actually recommending a biblical idea to their to their friends without realizing it.

They this this may be one of those that this they said not of their own Doing you know, but they? Yeah, yeah little did they know that that they spoke better than they knew there but Yeah. No, I mean so like you have King language there you have King like You have King language there.

So Even some do not obey the word. They may be one without a word by the conduct of your wife. Now if you go down to verse 5 it says basically the argument there is, you know Don't just be fixated on your external appearance, but then you know cultivate, you know, godly traits that are going to be examples of true beauty essentially and then verse 5 says This is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves like by adorning himself a good character.

But notice how notice what it says. It says by this is how they adorn themselves by The same word who potassium and I they they're being subject to their husbands are submitting to their own husbands, right?

Then notice what says this is as Sarah. So what does it mean to submit to their own husbands? What does it mean to don't adorn themselves with godly characteristics? It as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord and you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything Frightening so the example of godliness in the Old Testament that Women, you know under the New Covenant should be aspiring towards is the example of Sarah Who basically Abra obeyed Abraham calling him Lord basically recognizing that he's a king over her as far as that sense and and obeying him so it's I mean, I think that right there in the verse there is a Biblical instruction that basically says we should be like Sarah who obeyed Abraham and like what does it mean?

Just you know be subject to your husband. It means to To obey him and and that's what it says. Mm-hmm. So so I mean, I think you have a command there. That's like That I could very direct like example of the Old Testament that women are told to follow Do not let your adorning be merely external but you know the hidden perishable Hidden imperishable beauty just in the way to get that is to do follow Sarah's example of obedience.

It's right there. But I mean just you know, you know thinking about what else the Bible says I mean, you know any relationship in the Bible that is an authority relationship always has this Obedience element to it.

That's how authority relationships work. Mm-hmm. So I mean in any relation any authority relationship if there's any authority so God's in authority over us. What do we do? We obey him right God's words authority over us.

What do we do? We obey it, right? You remember the What is that guy's name? Yeah, see I'm gonna look it up. The guy who basically asked Jesus this is The guy who asked Jesus to heal a servant from a distance basically.

He says I also am a man under authority essentially is what he's the Roman centurion. Yeah. Yeah the centurion. Yeah, he says I also he basically says I understand authority. I'm a man also under authority give or take right?

And he says and then he says, you know I tell one man to go do this and he does it right and I tell another man to come and he comes right? So he says I'm a man who understands authority. I tell people to do things and they obey my instruction essentially, right?

So you don't even have to go see my servant. You can just tell the sickness to leave essentially and it will leave because you have authority over it, right? Right. That's his point. And so like and Jesus says, you know I haven't seen such great faith in Israel and all that right because he is the guy understood authority.

But that's how authority relationships work. And so that's so you have a direct passage like this. But that's just that's the way authority work relationships work every time, you know, right? So it's just it is what it is.

It's just how authority relationship work. Okay, so my follow-up question now is what you thought I was asking at first or I Was wondering if I was asking why. Why does God so we know that God does command? women to obey their husbands.

Just don't we should you know, or if they don't they should start. What why exactly? Does God give this command? I mean couldn't it just have easily have been that God said, you know. Hey women, actually your husbands need to obey you.

Why exactly is it set up this way where wives are meant to obey their husbands?

You know Harrison, that's a That's a pretty interesting question and it's the kind of question that It really does divide the complementarian camps into different positions as far as that goes and so it's there have been over the past few years what many have described as the complementarian debates essentially and.

Like a complementarianism as a position is basically just the idea that God made husbands and wives to be Compliments to each other and in some sense is kind of like a marketing scheme that you know. It used to be that we talked about the patriarchy and all that, right?

So feminism came along and now everyone wants to smash the patriarchy and you know. The patriarchy has gotten a bad rap and you know, that's just all about, you know, wife spanking abusers.

Yeah, clearly.

Yeah, so, you know the guys at CBMW, you know, they they wanted to rebrand and call themselves complementarians. It's kind of like a move kind of like the pro-life movement where you want to be a state your position in a More of a neutral non-offensive kind of way, right?

And so what happened was you had a lot you had a lot of people who basically understood that male and female or compliments To each other and then they have different roles and you know submission and that kind of vernacular was fine, but then the problem was there's been like many people who've adopted that label of complementarian even someone like Beth Moore with.

Is she really.

Egalitarian is again, you know like preaching on Sunday. I could want to fall under that broad rubric of I didn't know that. Yeah, well, you have all sorts of people who basically, you know, basically complementarians took over, you know all the major Conferences and everything else that was the standard state of affairs.

So everyone wants to say they're complementarian. You know unless you're just like out and you know crazy world or whatever. Yeah, but in like reform circles, you know complementarianism was a thing but then the like problem was I think maybe it was Piper who came along at some point and He was basically trying to answer the question.

Essentially like should You know should women be you know bosses of men or you know rulers of men in terms of the political sphere? Or something like that, right and so his his answer and I can't remember specifically how he worded it.

But his exam his answer was essentially no and this outraged a lot of people. I mean, I remember when I was at Southern the Sarah Palin was running for vice president. And and it was the oddest thing in the world to see, you know The Southern Seminary making an announcement on you know, do you or do you believe that that wife should submit to their husband?

Yes, are you okay with Sarah Palin being a vice president of her country? Yes, you know and so what what happened was there is this these debates and this divide that started to happen over like individuals who thought like basically this idea of Wives submitting to our obeying their husbands.

No one would say obey because that you know, that sounds too, you know, it's too mean. Too mean yeah insulting and all that but the idea of some yeah submission. Basically, you had two camps that were formed and you have one camp which called himself kind of soft Complimentarians and then one who were more, you know, I guess hard or strict complementarians.

But the soft complementarians basically treated the idea of submission as something that was purely irrational. Meaning that there is functionally no reason why God would command Men and women Women to submit to men other than it just had to pick one like he's just making an arbitrary decision.

Yeah, it's a purely arbitrary choice. And so the soft complementarians went that way with it. It's essentially it's just a purely arbitrary choice, but then someone like John Piper was saying well, no, I think that there are Ontological creational reasons like ontological tied to someone's like the being like your makeup your Constitution.

There are there are reasons why God made like God made men to lead and he made women to follow right? And so like so then when he says like wives follow your husband's and then he made. You know, I did not permit a woman to teach or have authority over men and church like that's tied to their ontology Who they are their creational makeup as far as that goes there.

So it wasn't just some subjective choice God uniquely designed men to be leaders and he designed women to be followers and that shows up in the way that they're made so that you know, It wasn't just like a command for the church and a command for the home and then you get to the government Sphere and it's like what do you do with you know, or like employment in the secular workplace, you know, it's like well.

You know, I just you know, women are good leaders to you know kind of thing it's like well, no like God like so the two two positions essentially divided in that kind of way and and you know, I When I listened to the Southern Seminary Group, you know Enthusiastically supporting Sarah Palin.

I just thought to myself. This is absurd I mean the Bible says that a nation's under judgment when women and children rule over it. Like so like what are we doing this is a shameful state of affairs this is Embarrassing this is humiliating, you know, like why would that I I want my emotions tied to what the Bible says.

But then functionally the the answer to your question is why could God have done either way, right? Yeah, I would say no I don't think I think the Bible teaches that God made men uniquely to lead and he made women uniquely to follow and there's a Variety of passages which speak to this various this this very thing.

I mean, I think you know just to say something horribly more offensive than What I've already said, you know, just let's just take this episode. Yeah, turn it into a dumpster fire of offense here. But I mean look my like there are times in the month where my wife goes crazy.

So.

Every man knows exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, you know, she she's obviously Much more sanctified than she was at the beginning of our marriage related to that. But I mean there you know, there are times of the month where like obviously women, you know are not exactly sane.

You know, they're hypersensitive. They're hyper emotional. I mean, but can you imagine like a Leader like a world leader with nuclear codes or whatever who has like a rough time of the month.

I.

Push the nuclear codes because the other country was you know, horribly offensive to them and he refuses to listen to what they have to say. And you know, like I mean, it's just like God didn't make women to lead.

I'm sorry. He like he didn't I mean that creation itself bear was witness to that very fact and you know I don't have any times of the month. I don't where I'm tempted towards insanity I don't you know.

Like it I don't and I have counseled enough women to know that this is this is a feature it's not a glitch, you know. And now that doesn't mean that a woman has no No Responsibility to control her emotions, you know during That you know cycle of the moon and all that and that she's just allowed to emote and everything else.

And you know, I think that husbands who just like let their wives do that they get like. They get what they subsidize essentially and it gets worse. But I think mature and got all the mature and godly woman my wife included I know.

You know.

They know that there are temptations that way and they don't pretend like they're there's not there. And and and you have conversations like if you're a mature couple who's not just you know, playing the feminist game.

You have conversations to say hey, where are we at? You know, like what's going on? Like you're acting weird. You seem like you're crying for no reason a lot. What's going on, you know, it's like how dare you you know ask if that's my yeah, it's like what I need to know.

Yeah, I need to know what I'm looking at here, right? Mm-hmm in order to Make sense of what's going on. And so yes, I mean, I think it's it's it's just it's just obvious. For just you know biological reasons that God has made men to lead women often are much more sensitive than men and there's often there's always there's often there's these situate there's a lot of situations that That God's put men in where men Have to make decisions that are hard, you know.

So because we live in a matriarchal society right now that explains a lot of the reaction to Kovat I mean like you look around the world. We've turned into a bunch of You know helicopter moms and it's just insane.

It's just like, you know, like we've turned into the kind of society that we can't Bear to risk even like, you know a point oh one percent chance of death, right? Right, right. I mean, I mean that's insane and that that's not masculine.

That's not manly. That's not like sane like right and so like but that's what happens when you you're in a matriarchal society is that if you Prioritize health and safety above all else as the number one chief priority.

This is what happens. Like we you live in a society where everyone's locked in the room and we you know, we used to have a funny movie Bubble Boy.

We're.

You know the helicopter parenting, you know on cracker but but we're doing that. You know like we we're literally have gone there fully because of a matriarchal influence in our society and so be you have to like being a man is.

That is to be able to mitigate risk to be able to have to make tough decisions. You know to have to like make decisions devoid of emotion at times and like that that are based on the cold hard facts. I mean, how do you send a bunch of soldiers in to battle if you can't do that kind of thing, right?

And know what you're doing, you know, and so I mean, I think there's just I.

Mean.

I just look at my own life and in my own marriage and you know. Like there is burdens that I've had to bear as a husband and a provider with you know. Scary situations that we've been in. And you know, God's designed men to face those.

Right, right. Face those and to bear those burdens. And and and you know I've never seen a couple. Where are those. Very few. And far between. Where? I would say I'd never seen a couple but bound balance the probability.

Then God's designed men to bear. You know that kind of thing a lot better than these design women. And you know I think by and large women are often more prone to deception than men as it relates to. Just doctrinal heresies and everything else and so there's just any number of creational reasons why God would do this.

It's not just some arbitrary choice. It's made to our design, you know. God designed men to be leaders and women to be followers. And when we reject that we get chaos or we get you know. Cove it to soccer moms who refused to let it.