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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.
And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Wednesday afternoon a little early today. Due to the fact that well to be perfectly honest with you. I have a rehearsal dinner to attend tomorrow evening.
That's part of the reason. Yes My my youngest is getting married and yes, I am doing the ceremony and yes, I am nervous About whether dad is going to handle would you be able to handle that? I mean honestly, I mean No, it's no no you have no can I have no control in this situation.
No, no, no, I It doesn't matter. Do you have any earthly idea how how my life would be over with if I pulled a stunt like? Okay. Anyway, what what are you looking at? I've got it aimed at him, right? You just got to eat that microphone like this.
Yes, that's the best way to do it in Studio with me that voice. Now you see I Get I get attacked all the time when I do my British accent.
With good reason because as I have personally pointed out to you Dick Van Dyke is not the man to model.
Okay, and and I don't model Dick Van Dyke Anymore because I started going to London and I'm around Roger Brazier and I'm around these very cultured refined. Very rough. Oh, yes, and I you know, I love London.
I really do. I mean, I've been spending time, you know going out Street witnessing at Leicester Square and it's just beautiful. Oh it is. It's not so right now because I don't know if you know us they're getting ready for the Olympics.
That's right, and it just it's it's not overly pretty right now. But but anyway. But you are are a true bread. So I'm not refined like those other guys as well. No but see you You live in exile, that's true.
I do I do now now everybody channel range man in this strange land. That's true in channel. Mike is going Cranmer Cranmer Cranmer. He's got a chant going in in in channel. Don't worry that that machine in the other room.
That's any 27 so it sees all things. You've got four screens and I have no I only have three screen only three I only have three screens but in in the studio with me is a man that we know is Cranmer but in real life goes by the name of David old old old old old, okay, and You are from.
Not it's it's actually technically st. Augustine's, isn't it? That's right. Yes. Yes. So I actually have an Anglican on the air with you. That's right and many people in my audience are going up he's lost it he's completely lost it but Actually, if you if you've listened to me talking For example when I did those and I told you about those videos I did at the Midwest Center for Theology.
That's right. And it finally like the last one or something like that, you know I made some comments about the the very odd Sydney Anglican. We are odd. We're very strange. Oh and for example one of my favorite.
And one of your favorite debates of mine, yeah was one that I did with Who? Jack's then notice it's Jack's bong. So like Jack Sparrow. Yes, where's he minister. I've not met him before. Yes indeed Sydney Anglicans now when I went down there in 09 wasn't it?
It was Somewhere once he gets our age. It starts all blurring together anyways, but The Sydney part was actually sort of his thrown in yeah, it was supposed to be is primarily Brisbane and We would sort of worked it out and Every place I spoke was an Anglican Church, that's right.
Because if you want good solid Orthodox evangelical teaching in Sydney, the very safest place to go is the city.
There are a few for reformed Baptist brother and they're going.
Good guys, but across the across like if you if someone goes to Sydney and they go I'm going to Sydney. I don't know where in Sydney. I'm gonna write and it's a big big metropolis. Four million people.
If they said where should I go to church you without even knowing What suburb they're in you can pretty well say go to an Anglican Church and you will get good safe.
And that was the first time I ever preached from a an elevated pulpit. Yes. It was your pulpit. That's right. That's right. Now the first night wasn't your place. Not at all. But that was the second night.
I think it was the Wednesday night. So it's my I can't remember but anyways. Every play and and people are like, wait a minute how can how can the Anglicans let you preach because everybody here doesn't know about you folks, but just briefly how for example, I was just in I was just in Anchorage, right.
And. The one of the Anglican churches up there Episcopalian churches up there yes, the pastor is very conservative and has sound theology and you even gave him a shout-out up there and and They would love to try to Align themselves those people there's their churches all over the world trying to align themselves with with you guys.
Why let's give you a bit of radio free Canterbury. Shall we and tell you? So the Anglican Communion is currently split. The presenting issue on which was split. It really is sexual ethics and particularly homosexual practice and can practicing homosexuals be ordained ministers and Consecrated as bishops.
I'm setting aside whether you should consecrate anybody who's a bishop or not but it's really a question about the authority of Scripture and We've been Discussing that issue for about good 20 years. It really came to a head eight years ago in 1993 with the concert no 2003 with the consecration of an openly openly practicing homosexual in America.
Gene Robinson, that's right. At which point You then actually the discussions are moot anymore. In which. And then we started to really fragment and what's come out of that is a really encouraging movement called the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans also known as GAF con named after the global Anglican future conference, which was held in Jerusalem two or three years ago and so a lot of the conservative Anglicans have got together and said do you know what we're done fighting we're done fighting.
The Institutions of the Communion just stymie us at every at every point and call.
The big councils the Country himself. I was about to say I mean, isn't that really one of the biggest hurdles to get over? Is that just. There's this. It's almost like the via media. There's an institutional block, right?
And so the the fellowship the FCA the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans have basically gone. You know, we're done trying to use those instruments to reform the Communion. There's just an unwillingness to discipline the Americans and the Canadians and others.
We're just going to carry on being Crazy. We're just going to carry on being Anglican regardless of that. So they made a declaration in Jerusalem called the Jerusalem Declaration where they really just affirmed the third nine articles of the church.
In a reformed basis of faith, we said look we're a creedal JC Ryle would have liked he would have liked that not so much they affirmed that and Said you know what? We're gonna start supporting people who want to do that.
And really the big news Recently has been that a group has formed and established itself within the Church of England itself called the Anglican mission.
So in the UK in the Church of England.
So the UK split between the Church of England and the Church of Wales and the Church in Scotland and In the Church of England, they formed something called the Anglican mission in England. And they've basically said a little panel of bishops who are who are solid and they just ordained three guys.
Wow, isn't that. It's almost like doing missions work where you start. Yes in the home. Yes.
It's like as one as one church newspaper commentator put it. The tanks have been parked on the lawn of Lambeth Palace.
But Obviously that that that creates.
Some rather interesting tensions. It does create tensions, but the great thing for us in our position is we go. Do you know what? We're just being Anglican. That's it. We're just we we believe the things I said I believe when I was ordained and we're just gonna get on and do that and we're gonna consecrate.
We're gonna we're gonna ordain people. The right way with with with bishops and with their approval.
To use the old formularies to ordain somebody and yet the words have been changed so much in their meaning. Mm-hmm that you've got somebody on the other side that wants to ordain homosexuals, but they said the same words you did they do.
But um, let's how am I gonna put this in a polite way? Let me try to be polite and not cynical.
They just don't believe the words that they're saying. Well, they've redefined them. I mean, it's post-modernism. Run amok.
But that's always been in one sense a problem in Anglicanism. And the really where that came in was in the 19th century when the Tractarians guys like Newman who eventually had the integrity to go over to Rome.
And that was a moment of real integrity for him, right guys like him and Pusey.
But but the integrity didn't last through Vatican one. That's the problem with the.
But that introduced the idea of really introduced a very famous tract called tract 90 where he Reread the Anglican articles with in a in a almost a papist way. I mean certainly a Roman way and he introduced the idea of Reading stuff not quite the way it really was intended long before the post moderns.
Yeah. But it fits in but it fits in and so like any other denomination. We've had our troubles in the past and no doubt we will in the future but I think what we're seeing at the moment is that God is honoring just faithfulness and Allowing people to be coached and is doing a wonderful thing where he's allowing Particularly African nations who we in the West had the privilege the honor of evangelizing maybe 200 years ago.
He's allowing them to now come and support us. They're pretty conservative, too.
Aren't they pretty conservative too, but even in Australia? It's it's not all of the Anglican. That's true.
And again, that's a unique product of Australian well the the Constitution of the church and geography so the Australian church was founded when a Chaplain came with the first fleet and The mission societies went to the government and they said We would be right to send a chaplain.
Would you fund a chaplain and the government went? No, they're convicts. They don't need a chaplain and the mission societies went. No, that might be why they need a chaplain. Especially so they may understand grace better than you then you might think.
So the mission studies actually funded the first chaplain and he worked really hard. And of course, it's only convinced evangelicals that get on a boat for four months to go to somewhere else, you know liberals don't do that.
So off he goes any preachers he preaches the preachers the gospel out there and then he's replaced by other guys and they're solidly Evangelical and so Sydney forms this very evangelical core. And then as other diocese are established, of course, they're geographically separate.
So things could just diverge. As time passes on and they do and the diocese in in in in in Australia. They tend to be quite independent not the right word. Maybe autonomous and then the general synod can only really do something for the whole church if all the diocese Agree, so you have this curious situation where?
Officially where we're quite conservative as a church but because the individual diocese are so geographically distinct and separate from each other, you know, it takes a lot to get people to talk and Autonomous they end up plowing their own furrows.
In a sense and so we're going to come to a point perhaps in Australia where one of the diocese itself Makes a decision they've already decided to ordain to consecrate women as bishops. Which has caused a bit of a stink, but there probably will come a moment where they make and legislate.
And put into liturgy something about same-sex blessings and then it's gonna make it's gonna kick off. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, what was so. What makes Sydney so? Conservative. What what keeps it that way? Well humanly speaking.
I want to say because they've recognized that getting the Theological College right at the center Is key so at more Theological College in Sydney is one of the I think I can say now having gone through four years Seminary is one of the finest undergraduate seminaries in the world and Solidly solidly conservative.
I got a few things going on, but you know pretty good and That just churns out Pastors and Bible teachers and lay workers for Sydney and so there's an iteration That goes on there. So humanly speaking that's what's going on being wise about picking your archbishop and your principal of the college don't ever underestimate Estimate the seminaries there.
Oh, yeah, of course as you'll know in I also want to go God has been very kind. There was a moment in the 19th century where we could have slipped into probably Anglican policies and And God was kind and gracious enough to bring us back but probably the third thing that the human speaking is going on is that there are a couple of Organizations that are working very hard to make sure that we keep it that way so I'm on the on the council of an organization called the Anglican Church League and We just see as our duty to to keep thanking God for the wonderful grace He's he's given to Sydney Anglicans and to under him work hard to maintain that as well as we can now.
The relationship of the church and the culture, yeah in Australia, what's. You actually according to I was looking at the the website here and it said which websites that yours. David became a Christian whilst.
Well, the wills has will spell if I misspelled or you mispronouncing it. No, we'll whilst. We'd say while here. Studying in America. That's right. So where were you studying? I was actually and as soon as I say it'll make sense to you I was at Champaign-Urbana University of Illinois.
Really? That's right. And I had grown up in one of those really middle-of-the-road nondescript Anglican churches back home. Hadn't really heard the gospel in the sense that you and I would understand it till I was about 17 and then not with any clarity.
Went off to university in my first year did what most you've lived a very typical student life. I'm a first year and then got a chance to go to the States and Won a little scholarship and went to first the States for a year to study and while I was at University of Illinois I met two Christian guys who were in my residence hall and they were clearly very different to all the rest of the guys.
I'm in my residence hall and when I actually found out they were born-again Christians. It was initially it was initially. But. But They were gracious to me and kind and they said are you a Christian David?
I went. Yeah. Sure. I am. I go to church. And they were again kind enough not to go. No, you're not. They just lived their life in front of me and invited me along to Bible study and I was a proud man but not a stupid man and I did understand as those months went by that I what I said was Christianity clearly was not was not what they had and Being an exchange student.
I had a lot of time on my hands. And so I'm one of the things I did as I said, I'm just gonna find out if this stuff is true or not. And what converted me out there was was two things one was being having the Bible left by one of the delegates at the intervarsity Convention which went on that that winter when I was away and secondly was just coming to the realization.
That the that it was the life of Paul's the change in the life of Paul that actually converted me. And I just us I didn't doubt the basic historical details. He changed on the road to Damascus or somewhere there.
I read his letters and I just said to myself there is nothing that could have convinced this man. Hmm other than meeting the Resurrected Christ. You know the Christians could have jumped him on the road and say, you know, Paul Saul.
We know where your family live. We've had enough of this persecution nonsense and that may have stopped him. But would not have made him the convinced evangelist when you read his letters. And I just came to the conclusion under God that Jesus was raised like the Bible said and then I just kind of went, huh?
Okay, then.
So how long were you here in the States then. I was here for you. Oh just for one year. Okay, but you still know something about the the culture here. It's it's different than than Australia. Australia is a much more secular culture.
And so given how secular we all are viewing ourselves that that's saying a lot yourself secular here and yet.
There's a phenomenal amount of public Christian expression. So the battle is on here as I see it on whether that Christian expression can take place in certain formats in certain loci. But Australia is a very different country.
It's what you just don't get public religious expression. And so when you do it gets mocked or ridiculed and on there, you know. You can't get a serious Christian guy. We just managed to get a guy on on on on the the Refined talk show on I'm on ABC a guy called John Lennox pressure John Lennox.
Oh sure. Yeah Yeah, he was on the Q &A on Monday just before we left. But that was a rarity normally get on some some some wing bat Raging and so we're actually trying to go go back and thought the counter thing.
Of course is that where where we're ministering? It's the right on Sydney Harbour in Sydney quite well-to-do quite a lot of middle-class people a lot of him went to private schools. Had chapels maybe themselves went to church when they were younger.
And so a lot of them are Familiar with Christian things kind of the language. Three with Christian culture church cultures. And so a lot of our job is to give them a good experience of church though. That they can enjoy and engage them again with the Lord Jesus Christ are from the page of the Bible and we're having.
But we're having some success Doing that particularly through wedding ministries as well couples coming to us when they want to get married. We've got a pretty church building.
That's what brings them in but what keeps them. I think I saw that wedding thing on the on the website. You know, hey come get married. We are so but it's. It's really one person at a time type thing.
Oh for sure. There is no there are some organizations as um.
Again Sydney organizations mainly to the Center for public Christianity has come out of Sydney and they're working hard to get good positive intellectually credible Speech about Jesus. So they were responsible for getting John Lennox onto the onto Q &A and So they're trying to do stuff, but no, it's not in the public way that it is here.
So it's secular in that in that other sense. When it happens, it does happen.
Australia is a very understated country. A Very informal a very informal. I mean, I was just calling you James without even thinking. Yeah. Well, not only that but I Discovered that the one the one item that I really did not need to have brought with me Let's high was was my tie.
That's right. And in fact the first night, what did I what did I wear? The first a bow tie probably I had. I had a bow tie. They were probably very polite to you.
They were and then also in Australia's think of the tall tall poppy syndrome where they just they're cutting off the tall poppy. So if someone gay thing gets too big for the boots, you're gone. I say you're gone.
So so yeah.
Titles formal. I mean I was expecting at least a few of those Uncomfortable collars that you guys wear. I didn't even see that. Listen. I've got I've got one of those and it comes out for a funeral.
And I only if someone wants me to wear robes for weddings and only on really high feast days. So Christmas and Easter for our prayer book big prayer book services, but no like, you know. They they don't serve their purpose in that kind of a culture an anti-authoritarian culture.
They're there. They're really unhelpful. There are some cultures where it's useful. I'm going hospital visiting. I'll very often put my dog collar on.
Be amazed. The doors that open up. Oh sure. Sure. Now we're gonna we're gonna dive into a radio free Geneva here in a few minutes, but Heading your direction as you are in a matter literally a matter of weeks October gonna be heading down there and sort of doing a repeat in the sense of Sydney Brisbane.
Yes. But this time the focus is is primarily on Sydney. So.
What are what are we doing down there? Well, we're gonna fly you in and then actually give you a nice rest.
Before making me drool on the on a pulpit somewhere and then you are kind enough to.
To agree to come and do a weekend away for our church. So you're going to come away with us and talk about apologetics. Yeah, I'm guessing we are which we're very excited about. No, it's going to be a little conference center run by Anglican youth.
Works on the water. Very nice.
And then are there are there seagulls around? Not. Well. Now explaining that Finding Nemo was actually a historical documentary. Absolutely. Oh, it is.
Fish and chips on Sydney Harbour. I got dive-bombed.
No, it's not when you have to when you have to sit there with your legs up kicking at them to keep them away from. Your fish and chips. Yeah.
We're hoping we're just finalizing a public Debate with Abdullah Kunde who I know is a as an often time caller. Yes, it's your show and a prominent Islamic apologist in Sydney, so we're just finalizing that.
I can't say anything more because we're just trying to get the details arranged and maybe Get a big organization in and then we've got you off doing some filming with another organization. And then we are we getting you to more theological college as well to speak to the students there.
Which I did last time which you did last time and they're they're very keen to have you back. And then we're going to fly you up to to Bris Vegas. Bris Vegas, is that what it's called? That's what the people from Sydney call it.
Oh.
Why is that? I think this is all like flashy and nice up there. Oh sunny. Okay and sunny. Well, it was warmer. That's true.
It was definitely warmer. Yeah a couple fast flight north and I think that they're looking after your schedule there.
So you probably know better than I do. Well, yeah, I know that I know that I'm gonna be doing a Retreat for the same church. I was at last time, but the big thing up in Brisbane is going to be the Debate with Roger Perkins.
That's right. Yeah on one is Pentecostal ism and well not on one is Pentecostal ism but on the doctrine the trading specifically the existence of the Son of God prior to the incarnation as a divine person and that's why yesterday morning I was actually this morning riding along listening to Roger Perkins debating a Church of Christ guy and what we're gonna be doing and in fact on the dividing line between now and October is I'm going to be reviewing some of the debates that Abdullah Kunda has done with Samuel green.
Oh, yeah, and Also Roger Perkins debates, so we're gonna be doing a lot of debate review Between now and October which should be useful to both of my opponents because I'm I'm laying out I mean, no one should ever go into a debate going.
I didn't know you believe that. I mean I make it as simple as can possibly be so yeah, but that's we're gonna be doing on the dividing line, so Now last time I was there in August wasn't I that's right.
Was it August? I think it was August. So October is gonna be warmer spring. So it's gonna be a spring spring time.
Yeah, okay. Yes. Don't know ties there. Oh.
I Just I don't know I'm Reformed Baptist we don't we don't even know how to we start stammering Behind a pulpit if we don't have a tie on even though I don't think I wore a tie that when I see you didn't.
You are a very nice waistcoat. That's right. That's right a waistcoat which we call a vest here, but. Yes, yes. Okay, whatever you say I. When I was in London a few weeks gone a few a few weeks in October of February I was on a I did a television program like the second night.
I was there and the host were this Satin white vest and they call it a waistcoat. They do. It was Blindingly bad. That's not good for television. Oh, it was horrible. I could not believe they let him do that.
It's just it's terrible. So anyways, so it'll be springtime there. So I'll have to keep that in mind and I need to remember that there's no weight restriction on. How much your carry-ons weigh? Coming into Australia.
Is that right? But there is coming out. They did. They did. I'm going to have to. I I had to repack stuff and oh it was it was. Getting out was was no fun at all. And especially when you're looking forward to spending how many hours?
On a 747 or whatever. We came over on the new a 380 and it was about 14 marvelous fun-filled hours.
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It's wonderful. Well, I threw an I flew an a380 out to Sydney by as a 747. It was out of Brisbane. Out of Brisbane. It's not not the same thing. So slumming it from there. Yeah. Yeah, so well.
David you have called. In fact I think the last last time you called do we discuss the ashes or something like that. Quite possibly the. What would you mean?
The ashes where we beat Australia in the most prestigious sporting event of all time. And yet you live in. That's right, but I'm British citizen. They don't give me citizenship. Oh, and I took great delight in taking my whole family on the last day of the ashes at Sydney Cricket Ground to watch.
Australia lose to England. So so why is it that you're starting to sound more and more like one of them?
Yeah, this has happened. This is haven't twice now I've come here and someone says oh you're from Australia and a little bit of me inside has died I think after eight years in in a beautiful country of Australia.
I'm kind of just picking up the accent. Now have you been back to the UK? Only in my first year and actually this is the first we're going on an around-the-world trip. And this is the first time I've been in maybe seven years.
Really? Yeah, and you know what they're gonna say to you once they're gonna say I sound like I'm Australian. Yeah. Uh-huh. I know that's that's really right. I'm just gonna tell him to shut up. Suck it up.
Hey, can I ask one more favor? Oh sure actually actually in rich. We'll go ahead and we'll dive right into it. They don't even work the radio free Geneva intro is so long. Anyways, that's that's fine.
That's what about isn't it?
My daughter asked me at the mall today if I've ever been on television and I had to say to her sadly no. Would she be disappointed? She said no, but I see a webcam there. That's the next best thing. Am I on that?
No, you're not you know, it's you'd have to come over here. Let's come around and give you a wave. Oh, you could do that. Right. Well, yes, is it see we get we can share the show the microphone say there you go see there Harris I'm on the TV.
It's hard to get Christians on TV in Australia, I guess we sensible ones. So you get the as you said you get the nutburgers, but you don't get the.
We we've got this problem in Australia that there's a an organization called the Australian Christian Lobby who speak out about everything and their strapline is I think some it's something like values for Australia and Just makes you want to go.
Because values is being good, which is my friend say it with me the opposite of the gospel. Tells my kids and they went they went Sunday morning values Saturday morning fun.
Aha, well, I missed all that while I was down there. Y 'all kept me pretty busy. I didn't. I didn't see much in the way of a television. That's a down there, which I probably was. It's all American junk.
Anyway, yeah, we probably exported to you. Anyway, well, thank you for coming in and I'm sorry that it's 147 degrees. Have we have. I not told you so many times you want me a little bit hot.
And right now it's not bad. It's not too bad. Is it. I should buy an egg just for the sake of trying to fry.
We had 118 a couple weeks that is only it's only like 107 today. It's only a hundred and seven. Yeah, it's so it's 11 degrees cooler. Positively bar me. It is a little it is a little warm here, but thank you very very much and We're gonna dive right into radio free Geneva.
I don't like Calvinist because they've chosen to follow John Calvin instead of Jesus Christ. I have a problem with them. They're following men instead of the Word of God.
Our helper he amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing.
On top of my feet and crying out he died. For all those who elected were selected.
For still our ancient foe Does seek to work us woe. His craft and power are great and done with cruel. Well, first of all James I'm very ignorant of the Reformers. I think I probably know more about Calvinism than most of the people who call themselves Calvinist.
Strength confide our striving would be.
But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that who so ever.
We're not the right man on our side the man of God's own true.
Ladies and gentlemen James White is a hyper Calvinist. Now, whatever we do in Baptist life We don't need to be teaming up with hyper Calvinist. You ask who that may be Christ Jesus.
I Said the other day in class that I don't understand the difference between hyper Calvinism and Calvinism. It seems to me that Calvin was a hyper Calvinist. Right, I don't think there is typically any difference between Calvinism and hyper Calvinism.
Let's follow his name. Read my book from age to age.
And now from our underground bunker hidden deep beneath Liberty University where no one would think to look safe from those modern Calvinists Dave Hunt fans and those who have read and Reread George Bryson's book.
We are radio free Geneva. Broadcasting the truth about God's freedom to say his own eternal glory.
And here we go, we need to press on in our review of Bob Coy's sermon on Calvinism. We haven't been getting very far, especially if we keep playing things like the Calvinists don't believe in any of the solos.
That we I bet you I bet you David didn't get to hear that one. You were traveling you they didn't get to hear and no, but no no, we're not playing it. We're not gonna know we're not gonna put everybody through that once again, but we need to press on with.
With Bob Coy's discussion of reformed theology picking up right where we left off last time. Let's dive right in for this end.
We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust the Living God who is the Savior of all men all men.
First John 2 and 2. Okay, that's where we had. I had actually backed it up just a little bit there so that we could take a look at. I'm assuming that that was first Timothy 4 10 and Specifically so as to point out Yeah Who is the Savior of all people ESV and for some reason this this last phrase?
Malista Pistone didn't get quoted there and and that is Specifically or especially of those who believe. And I was gonna let me let me just back that up my miss may make sure I didn't. Didn't miss anything.
Okay, let's let's make sure we got here.
For this end. We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust the Living God who is the Savior of all men all men. Yep, first John 2 and 2.
Is the propitiation of our sins? Yeah, we'll get first on to do a sec. That's definitely first Timothy 4 10 just so strange to stop at that point I'm not making an accusation That Bob is trying to hide something or that he's trying to you know, I Don't get the feeling in any way shape or form That this man is in any way shape or form deceptive.
Maybe what he was quoting from doesn't quote that last rate. I just I just do not know. But for those of you who have the Potter's Freedom, I'm not gonna go over this too deeply. Starting on page 365 of the new edition.
There is no page 365 in the old edition. I Have a discussion that goes for Do do to do about six pages here on First Timothy 4 10 which includes lengthy citations from George W Knight the third and one of the best commentaries in the pastoral epistles you'll ever Find and his citation and discussion of that.
I believe I also have Robert Mounts in here and I also yeah. Yeah, William mounts. I'm sorry Robert mounts duh William mounts is in here and then I also have very interestingly enough the citation from Marshall and Towner I Howard Marshall is no reformed exegete in any way shape or form and his his specific say statement is these problems disappear if we accept the other possible translation to be precisely namely I Mean all is thus limited here to believers that is cited from him.
I'll direct you to that for a fuller fuller reading, but I just don't get the feeling that Bob Coy's sources That he's utilizing. I I hope I'm wrong that he's simply utilizing something like George Bryson's materials, but Let's just be honest.
My experience is with the non-denominational denomination That and you know as I'm sitting here thinking about this this sort of fits in with the ecclesiology of the non-denominational denomination and I'm gonna go ahead and make an application here.
I wasn't planning on doing this but Given what's called the Moses model amongst the Calvary Chapel churches once the particular leadership of the Calvary Chapel churches embraces a particular model or a particular author that ends up having a a big effect an out-of-proportion Impact upon the churches that are smaller that the smaller Calvary Chapel churches in it and and across the denomination because whether you want to call the domination or not, it is a denomination quite obviously and Some people going what's the Moses model?
I had never heard the Moses model either until last year and the the Moses model is Anybody in the Calvary Chapel leadership knows the Moses model is it is it comes down from the top? And the the senior pastor of a large Calvary Chapel is is like Moses and he talks with God.
And then he's the one through whom things go to everybody else. Yeah, believe it or not. I had no idea of that either. But that's the model that is used in in Calvary Chapel's and It's interesting. There is a big discussion going on right now across the internet about what happened at Sovereign Grace Ministries and The fact that One of the gentlemen involved there identifies himself as an Apostle and That there's a very unbiblical Ecclesiology that is in play there that has led to all of this.
Well, you're not humble enough. Well, you're not humble enough. Well, I don't think you're humble enough stuff that's going on in that situation and Ecclesiology is actually rather important thing. That's that's why I wrote the chapter I did on that subject and and that's why you know, you know after the dividing line David Old and I are gonna have an ecclesiology debate over spaghetti.
No, we're not gonna do that. We could but we're not gonna do that. He just hung himself in the other room, okay. So there you know, it is interesting that this the fact that Calvary Chapel folks use such a narrow range of information.
It's either that or they do know what we believe and misrepresent it. I just I just can't go there I just there might be some like that, but I don't think that's Bob Coy's situation. In any way shape or form it it narrows the range of information they look at because of the ecclesiology.
I see a connection between the two. But I'm never gonna finish this thing if I don't keep going first. John 2 2 is the next one. He's gonna be citing and we've gone over that one over and over and over again as well.
And I think actually now that I think about that I did second period to when I did first John 2 2 in the original edition of the potter's freedom as well but of course we view the text as referring to all kinds of men and the Jesus Christ is a Propitiation for I'm awful glad that he's all kinds of men including convicts in Australia.
Which is a good thing and not only for ours also, but also for the whole world. Now is that the whole world the elect or whole world? See once again. But is that a propitiation?
Have you noticed? When folks quote texts like this and They are intent upon attacking the doctrine of election that they will emphasize Words that they think mean every single human being now. They almost never then back up and talk about how there can be any Delimitation for example in regards to people before Christ or things like that or the fact that there were there have been entire Generations of people's in places in the world that have passed away where there's no Christian missionary there went to them, etc Etc.
They don't get into that but you can have a huge massive Theological term this this 800 pound gorilla in the room like propitiation and they just Go glossing right over it. Don't even don't even ask the question.
What does propitiation mean? Because if you're gonna interpret first John to in this way then you you have to ensure you have to come up with a meaning of propitiation that is Conditional it is hypothetical it's.
Maybe if this is added to it and it's like they never even noticed that. Would that be the case if they were defending the deity of Christ? No, I Mean there are Calvary Chapel folks that do a great job defending the deity of Christ.
But when they defend the deity of Christ, they actually look at these words and see the importance of recognizing these words. But when it comes this one area, wow, you can really see how traditions impact people.
You gotta look. Description. You have to say well, wait a second. Is it possible that God would actually make an opportunity available to some and not to all? Make an.
Opportunity available. Did you catch that make an opportunity available to some but not to all? Now what does that take us back to is is the the proclamation of the Lordship of Christ and the forgiveness of sins something that can be reduced to make an opportunity available.
How can anyone interpret make an opportunity available in the context of the enmity of sinners against a holy God? See theology matters where you start matters if you don't start with the holiness of God if you don't start with a sovereign God.
If You don't start with man as a rebel sinner against God then it's real easy to reduce things down to well. You know, it's it's a making of available of opportunities.
Is that really what it is? If in fact some are chosen to be saved and others are chosen not to be saved and what you end up with now. Notice the implicit.
Equation there of once again not seeing that one involves an extension of grace to an enemy of God a Changing of the heart whereas the other is of course bringing of justice against an enemy of God. They're not the same thing.
There it's not equal ultimacy and yet that is always a part and that seems to me in my opinion is primarily Spread through the non-denominational denomination through the influence of George Bryson. Listen carefully.
What you end up is what I abhor and that's called double predestination. I.
Catch that something that I abhor. I Abhor now the gloves come off at this point. It's something that I abhor. Double predestination. Now, what is that? It's gonna be equal ultimacy. It's going to be the statement that.
Well, I'll let him define leave that there are people predestined to be saved, but I reject wholeheartedly.
Predestined to be damned and that again is coming straight out of George Bryson and You know at least George knows better. I mean whether whether it ever gets through to George or not is is another issue, but George does know better.
And Because I've explained it to him Explained it to him on something called the Bible Answer Man broadcast which was 2003 December of 2003. Wow coming up on eight years ago now and we make that entire discussion available MP3 and the whole nine yards now available through Alvin Omega Ministries.
Anyways He knows better, but I don't know that many of these folks do know better. When you try to explain to them this this that you get this look on the face like I look. I'm not going there. I'm not going to engage with you at this point.
Maybe it's partly how we present it.
But still this don't seem to listen and yet that's what Calvin himself believed. Oh listen to Calvin's quote. It's interesting when I put it to you in his own words.
And I'm almost 99 certain he's reading directly out of the dark side of Calvinism. See I've got it right here. See see there's there's the dark side David's screaming. The other the dark side of Calvinism the Calvinist caste system.
I bet you if I looked for the for the for the quote in here if there was an index that could actually tell you. Where to find anything in here?
That this is this would be found clearly scripture proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once and for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation and Those whom on the other hand it was his pleasure to doom to destruction.
Now what is that referring to is that is that equal ultimacy? Well if you define equal ultimacy as God's will determines all things and Just in a bland way like that and forget the means. Forget the fact that God makes it very plain that he glorifies himself by the means that he accomplishes his decree.
Then you can even everything out and say it's just a you're in you're out. You're in you're out. But is there anyone who could even seriously read Calvin at that point and think that that's what Calvin's saying.
Now I realize most of these guys do not expect their audience to be reading Calvin and So they don't have to worry about that kind of thing and most of them have never read Calvin for themselves if They did read Calvin.
They'd probably be just a little bit bothered by the fact that for example The whole section on predestination election in the final 1559 Latin edition of the of the Institute's comes right after the longest Section of the Institute's.
And I like to ask I like I love I'd love to ask these guys if because remember we've we've got the phones open if Bob Coy would like to call him. He's the only person we'll let in right now, or we can we can certainly let brother Jack From the Calvinist don't believe any of the five solos.
He can call in too, but I Love to ask him. What is in fact? The longest section of the Institute's and what's it on and it's right before the section on predestination. Hey the phone. The phones are still working.
No, no. Okay. Thank you very much. What's the longest section of the Institute's and I bet you I bet you some people in the other room. No. Yes, maybe. Yeah, see see Jamie knew the rookie the rookie knew.
The longest section is on prayer and that's the section right before the section on predestination and they might read that and go. Well, why would Calvin ever talk about prayer if you believe in a Calvinist God, there's no reason to pray, right?
See, they just they just they're not really dealing with Calvinist Calvin let alone the Calvinism as Calvinism.
That's double predestination, I don't buy it I think. Everyone who's predestined to be saved is and the other side. I believe they have a choice to also be predestined to be saved. You go.
They have a choice to be predestined to be saved. This is where? Once again. There's this there's this people today are willing to ignore what Has been argued about for centuries and the vocabulary that's been developed to help do that in a meaningful way.
This is where well, let's be honest. This is where a lot of the Catholic the Roman Catholic criticism of surface level evangelicalism is right and that is well you people think you can just reinvent the wheel all the time that every generation just has to come up with everything fresh and.
This is the kind of stuff they're talking about when modern people are willing to basically say I don't really care. What people have come up with about this in the past? I I don't care that there have been entire tomes written on this subject.
We're just gonna do it for ourselves. You know, there's a real arrogance to that. I Would sort of think that well, you know Christians have been around for 2 ,000 years and you know they might have actually come up with some thoughts that would be helpful with me to me at this point and.
And in fact they did. That doesn't mean we have to elevate them to some high status of next inspiration. But at the same time this is the other extreme on the other end Bob still very very confusing.
Well, maybe this will clarify at the next point, of course being irresistible grace and before I go that I forgot to.
Finish comment on that they chose. I believe they can choose to be predestined. So what is predestination? What is predestination from Bob Coy's perspective? Is it an eternal act of God? Is it something that flows out of the nature of God is something where he accomplishes his purposes or is it something?
That's very much based upon our actions and God's response to us at that point.
Very clearly it is. The question would be as the definition defines it. There's a special inward call that God extends only the left which is never resisted now.
Listen this this was this was one of the more frustrating elements of this sermon. I will admit and That and I've mentioned it before Bob Coy does not understand what we mean by regeneration. He does not understand we mean by the new life in Christ by having a heart of stone taken out given a heart of flesh But the wind blowing across the valley of the dry bones none of that stuff.
It's just it's just. And it's frustrating because I played when we first started this his claim. I've read all the reformed books. It's the second largest portion of my library after the stuff on eschatology.
And I've read all that stuff. Well, if you've read all that stuff, then why don't you know, we believe about regeneration. That doesn't it's it's it's very very very frustrating. So it's never resisted why.
Because we're dead and sin and I have said over and over again You can immediately detect when someone Really doesn't understand what we mean by irresistible grace when they run off to Acts chapter 7 when they come up with the easy way Of saying well people resist the Spirit of God all the time.
But we're talking about the specific work of the Spirit of God in bringing regeneration into the life of his elect people that's a specific thing and When you find folks it just simply will not even allow for that and will not.
Well, that's what we're gonna hear here.
And again, I emphasize this fact if he's the one who's calling you and choosing you you're called and chosen. Basically, whether you like it or not because you can't resist the grace of God now.
Where do we come up with that kind of thinking? Well, where does Bob Coy come up with the kind of thinking. That's what we believe. Because this is this unwilling Christian thing that has no Concept of a Changed heart the fact that we are we are created in the image of Christ so that we long for him and we love him.
And we believe in him that none of that even crosses the.
His mind at this. All right, all the father gives me. Will come to me John 6 and 37. I've told the story before but I'll tell it again.
When I was writing the Potter's Freedom, I wrote to Norm Geisler and One of the things I said to him I says it was stuck to Geisler. It seems very strange an entire book. That goes against what you call extreme Calvinism that there would be no exegesis of John 6 37 to 45.
And he wrote back. I executed the entire thing executed all of it and So I took the time because some of you may remember the original edition of chosen but free. I might have an original edition hiding in here someplace the original edition of chosen but free did not have Description.
Well, okay. It had a scripture index, but it was not an exhaustive scripture index. And so back then I would pay people with Amazon gift certificates to sit there and go through each page go through each page and send me a listing of Scripture references.
I Didn't pay anybody to do that one. I did it myself went through the entire book and I sent him a listing every page. They quoted anything from John 6 37 to 44. If I recall correctly, I could be wrong about this.
It's coming up on 11 years now actually over 11 years now. But my recollection is John 6 37 was never even quoted in full In the book let alone was there any exegesis of it? And when I sent that letter back The response I got was a postcard that said if you publish I will respond and that was it.
So here you have the same type of thing. Here you have a little snippet of John 6 37. How can anyone in the audience even begin to really follow the argument of that text by by quoting just a little snippet?
All that the father gives me will come to me and the one coming to me. I will never cast out. But even then okay, at least you've got all 37. How about the fact that what comes before this is A taught is just saying you've seen me, but you are not believing.
It's talking about why who have rowed boats across the lake to come hear him are unbelievers and Then it's going to continue the argument straight through the rest of the chapter at least through verse 45 I mean again If this was a sermon on the deity of Christ or the resurrection or something like that.
Is this what you'd hear in a Calvary Chapel? And I think folks in Calvary Chapel have to ask themselves a question. Why is it? That on this one topic we get this kind of preaching.
All the father gives me coming. In other words if God said you are his then you're his and you're gonna come to him because you're gonna come to him. End of sentence done deal.
And that is the foundation of and the one coming to me I will not cast out. Now there are a lot of people in Calvary Chapel that believe that. But it's based upon this very text and what it means all that the father gives me will come to me.
The father's giving determines our coming. Oh it'd be wonderful to hear Bob Coy actually interact with the with the simple question and The simple question is which act comes first the giving of the father or the coming.
Because he's just said That he believes that people are given a choice to be predestined so from his perspective, it's The one all that the father sees coming to me. He gives to the son or something like that.
It's it's not.
What Jesus has in John 6 13 and 48. Now when the Gentiles heard this they were glad glorified the word of the Lord And as many as had been appointed to eternal life belief. Certainly sounds like it doesn't it.
Well, let's see the.
This is again what was so frustrating about this. He quotes John 6 37. Sounds like it says this. He quotes act 1348. At least he does not try to give us a Hebrew original of Acts chapter 13. That's a good thing and some of you're going a Hebrew original.
Yeah, that's what Dave Hunt did remember. You know, what love is this when he put his own edition of it out after his publisher wouldn't keep putting it out he put his own edition out and it's it's the Hebrew Ridge.
The scholars who have seen the Hebrew original of Acts chapter 13 says it means this and it comes up with the same Understanding as Jehovah's Witnesses in the New World Translation but of course there is no Hebrew original and they drove derived that from a cultic website a yaoist website someplace and You know, I haven't you know what we need to do.
We need to buy The current edition of love is this what love is this? Because I have where is it there? Yeah, there's. Here's my here's my nice hardbound edition of what love is it's not signed unfortunately.
And how big are the letters in that? No, it's not too big. No. No, it's it's actually typeset very very nicely. But this one is dated we're running out of time the program here. Anyways, we need to get a new one because remember what they told us after we discovered that they had quoted a cult in here.
Well, we're gonna change it in the next edition. I Think we need to buy a new edition of what love is this and find out if after five six seven years. However long it's been that actually took place. I think that might be something we need to do.
Well, I didn't get very how far did I get? I got four minutes and 32 seconds farther. Yeah, great. But I've only got 30 minutes left to go. So who knows maybe next time we'll Get almost there. Anyways, thanks for listening.
Thanks David for being on the program today. We'll see you next time on the violin Tuesday next week regular time. See you. God bless.
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