David Ould Report

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

David Ould on Anglican Identity and the Sydney Context

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Wednesday afternoon a little early today. Due to the fact that well to be perfectly honest with you. I have a rehearsal dinner to attend tomorrow evening.

That's part of the reason. Yes My my youngest is getting married and yes, I am doing the ceremony and yes, I am nervous About whether dad is going to handle would you be able to handle that? I mean honestly, I mean No, it's no no you have no can I have no control in this situation.

No, no, no, I It doesn't matter. Do you have any earthly idea how how my life would be over with if I pulled a stunt like? Okay. Anyway, what what are you looking at? I've got it aimed at him, right? You just got to eat that microphone like this.

Yes, that's the best way to do it in Studio with me that voice. Now you see I Get I get attacked all the time when I do my British accent.

With good reason because as I have personally pointed out to you Dick Van Dyke is not the man to model.

Okay, and and I don't model Dick Van Dyke Anymore because I started going to London and I'm around Roger Brazier and I'm around these very cultured refined. Very rough. Oh, yes, and I you know, I love London.

I really do. I mean, I've been spending time, you know going out Street witnessing at Leicester Square and it's just beautiful. Oh it is. It's not so right now because I don't know if you know us they're getting ready for the Olympics.

That's right, and it just it's it's not overly pretty right now. But but anyway. But you are are a true bread. So I'm not refined like those other guys as well. No but see you You live in exile, that's true.

I do I do now now everybody channel range man in this strange land. That's true in channel. Mike is going Cranmer Cranmer Cranmer. He's got a chant going in in in channel. Don't worry that that machine in the other room.

That's any 27 so it sees all things. You've got four screens and I have no I only have three screen only three I only have three screens but in in the studio with me is a man that we know is Cranmer but in real life goes by the name of David old old old old old, okay, and You are from.

Not it's it's actually technically st. Augustine's, isn't it? That's right. Yes. Yes. So I actually have an Anglican on the air with you. That's right and many people in my audience are going up he's lost it he's completely lost it but Actually, if you if you've listened to me talking For example when I did those and I told you about those videos I did at the Midwest Center for Theology.

That's right. And it finally like the last one or something like that, you know I made some comments about the the very odd Sydney Anglican. We are odd. We're very strange. Oh and for example one of my favorite.

And one of your favorite debates of mine, yeah was one that I did with Who? Jack's then notice it's Jack's bong. So like Jack Sparrow. Yes, where's he minister. I've not met him before. Yes indeed Sydney Anglicans now when I went down there in 09 wasn't it?

It was Somewhere once he gets our age. It starts all blurring together anyways, but The Sydney part was actually sort of his thrown in yeah, it was supposed to be is primarily Brisbane and We would sort of worked it out and Every place I spoke was an Anglican Church, that's right.

Because if you want good solid Orthodox evangelical teaching in Sydney, the very safest place to go is the city.

There are a few for reformed Baptist brother and they're going.

Good guys, but across the across like if you if someone goes to Sydney and they go I'm going to Sydney. I don't know where in Sydney. I'm gonna write and it's a big big metropolis. Four million people.

If they said where should I go to church you without even knowing What suburb they're in you can pretty well say go to an Anglican Church and you will get good safe.

And that was the first time I ever preached from a an elevated pulpit. Yes. It was your pulpit. That's right. That's right. Now the first night wasn't your place. Not at all. But that was the second night.

I think it was the Wednesday night. So it's my I can't remember but anyways. Every play and and people are like, wait a minute how can how can the Anglicans let you preach because everybody here doesn't know about you folks, but just briefly how for example, I was just in I was just in Anchorage, right.

And. The one of the Anglican churches up there Episcopalian churches up there yes, the pastor is very conservative and has sound theology and you even gave him a shout-out up there and and They would love to try to Align themselves those people there's their churches all over the world trying to align themselves with with you guys.

Why let's give you a bit of radio free Canterbury. Shall we and tell you? So the Anglican Communion is currently split. The presenting issue on which was split. It really is sexual ethics and particularly homosexual practice and can practicing homosexuals be ordained ministers and Consecrated as bishops.

I'm setting aside whether you should consecrate anybody who's a bishop or not but it's really a question about the authority of Scripture and We've been Discussing that issue for about good 20 years. It really came to a head eight years ago in 1993 with the concert no 2003 with the consecration of an openly openly practicing homosexual in America.

Gene Robinson, that's right. At which point You then actually the discussions are moot anymore. In which. And then we started to really fragment and what's come out of that is a really encouraging movement called the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans also known as GAF con named after the global Anglican future conference, which was held in Jerusalem two or three years ago and so a lot of the conservative Anglicans have got together and said do you know what we're done fighting we're done fighting.

The Institutions of the Communion just stymie us at every at every point and call.

The big councils the Country himself. I was about to say I mean, isn't that really one of the biggest hurdles to get over? Is that just. There's this. It's almost like the via media. There's an institutional block, right?

And so the the fellowship the FCA the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans have basically gone. You know, we're done trying to use those instruments to reform the Communion. There's just an unwillingness to discipline the Americans and the Canadians and others.

We're just going to carry on being Crazy. We're just going to carry on being Anglican regardless of that. So they made a declaration in Jerusalem called the Jerusalem Declaration where they really just affirmed the third nine articles of the church.

In a reformed basis of faith, we said look we're a creedal JC Ryle would have liked he would have liked that not so much they affirmed that and Said you know what? We're gonna start supporting people who want to do that.

And really the big news Recently has been that a group has formed and established itself within the Church of England itself called the Anglican mission.

So in the UK in the Church of England.

So the UK split between the Church of England and the Church of Wales and the Church in Scotland and In the Church of England, they formed something called the Anglican mission in England. And they've basically said a little panel of bishops who are who are solid and they just ordained three guys.

Wow, isn't that. It's almost like doing missions work where you start. Yes in the home. Yes.

It's like as one as one church newspaper commentator put it. The tanks have been parked on the lawn of Lambeth Palace.

But Obviously that that that creates.

Some rather interesting tensions. It does create tensions, but the great thing for us in our position is we go. Do you know what? We're just being Anglican. That's it. We're just we we believe the things I said I believe when I was ordained and we're just gonna get on and do that and we're gonna consecrate.

We're gonna we're gonna ordain people. The right way with with with bishops and with their approval.

To use the old formularies to ordain somebody and yet the words have been changed so much in their meaning. Mm-hmm that you've got somebody on the other side that wants to ordain homosexuals, but they said the same words you did they do.

But um, let's how am I gonna put this in a polite way? Let me try to be polite and not cynical.

They just don't believe the words that they're saying. Well, they've redefined them. I mean, it's post-modernism. Run amok.

But that's always been in one sense a problem in Anglicanism. And the really where that came in was in the 19th century when the Tractarians guys like Newman who eventually had the integrity to go over to Rome.

And that was a moment of real integrity for him, right guys like him and Pusey.

But but the integrity didn't last through Vatican one. That's the problem with the.

But that introduced the idea of really introduced a very famous tract called tract 90 where he Reread the Anglican articles with in a in a almost a papist way. I mean certainly a Roman way and he introduced the idea of Reading stuff not quite the way it really was intended long before the post moderns.

Yeah. But it fits in but it fits in and so like any other denomination. We've had our troubles in the past and no doubt we will in the future but I think what we're seeing at the moment is that God is honoring just faithfulness and Allowing people to be coached and is doing a wonderful thing where he's allowing Particularly African nations who we in the West had the privilege the honor of evangelizing maybe 200 years ago.

He's allowing them to now come and support us. They're pretty conservative, too.

Aren't they pretty conservative too, but even in Australia? It's it's not all of the Anglican. That's true.

And again, that's a unique product of Australian well the the Constitution of the church and geography so the Australian church was founded when a Chaplain came with the first fleet and The mission societies went to the government and they said We would be right to send a chaplain.

Would you fund a chaplain and the government went? No, they're convicts. They don't need a chaplain and the mission societies went. No, that might be why they need a chaplain. Especially so they may understand grace better than you then you might think.

So the mission studies actually funded the first chaplain and he worked really hard. And of course, it's only convinced evangelicals that get on a boat for four months to go to somewhere else, you know liberals don't do that.

So off he goes any preachers he preaches the preachers the gospel out there and then he's replaced by other guys and they're solidly Evangelical and so Sydney forms this very evangelical core. And then as other diocese are established, of course, they're geographically separate.

So things could just diverge. As time passes on and they do and the diocese in in in in in Australia. They tend to be quite independent not the right word. Maybe autonomous and then the general synod can only really do something for the whole church if all the diocese Agree, so you have this curious situation where?

Officially where we're quite conservative as a church but because the individual diocese are so geographically distinct and separate from each other, you know, it takes a lot to get people to talk and Autonomous they end up plowing their own furrows.

In a sense and so we're going to come to a point perhaps in Australia where one of the diocese itself Makes a decision they've already decided to ordain to consecrate women as bishops. Which has caused a bit of a stink, but there probably will come a moment where they make and legislate.

And put into liturgy something about same-sex blessings and then it's gonna make it's gonna kick off. Oh, yeah.

Sydney Anglican Conservatism, Church of England Splits, and Australian Church Life

Yeah, what was so. What makes Sydney so? Conservative. What what keeps it that way? Well humanly speaking.

I want to say because they've recognized that getting the Theological College right at the center Is key so at more Theological College in Sydney is one of the I think I can say now having gone through four years Seminary is one of the finest undergraduate seminaries in the world and Solidly solidly conservative.

I got a few things going on, but you know pretty good and That just churns out Pastors and Bible teachers and lay workers for Sydney and so there's an iteration That goes on there. So humanly speaking that's what's going on being wise about picking your archbishop and your principal of the college don't ever underestimate Estimate the seminaries there.

Oh, yeah, of course as you'll know in I also want to go God has been very kind. There was a moment in the 19th century where we could have slipped into probably Anglican policies and And God was kind and gracious enough to bring us back but probably the third thing that the human speaking is going on is that there are a couple of Organizations that are working very hard to make sure that we keep it that way so I'm on the on the council of an organization called the Anglican Church League and We just see as our duty to to keep thanking God for the wonderful grace He's he's given to Sydney Anglicans and to under him work hard to maintain that as well as we can now.

The relationship of the church and the culture, yeah in Australia, what's. You actually according to I was looking at the the website here and it said which websites that yours. David became a Christian whilst.

Well, the wills has will spell if I misspelled or you mispronouncing it. No, we'll whilst. We'd say while here. Studying in America. That's right. So where were you studying? I was actually and as soon as I say it'll make sense to you I was at Champaign-Urbana University of Illinois.

Really? That's right. And I had grown up in one of those really middle-of-the-road nondescript Anglican churches back home. Hadn't really heard the gospel in the sense that you and I would understand it till I was about 17 and then not with any clarity.

Went off to university in my first year did what most you've lived a very typical student life. I'm a first year and then got a chance to go to the States and Won a little scholarship and went to first the States for a year to study and while I was at University of Illinois I met two Christian guys who were in my residence hall and they were clearly very different to all the rest of the guys.

I'm in my residence hall and when I actually found out they were born-again Christians. It was initially it was initially. But. But They were gracious to me and kind and they said are you a Christian David?

I went. Yeah. Sure. I am. I go to church. And they were again kind enough not to go. No, you're not. They just lived their life in front of me and invited me along to Bible study and I was a proud man but not a stupid man and I did understand as those months went by that I what I said was Christianity clearly was not was not what they had and Being an exchange student.

I had a lot of time on my hands. And so I'm one of the things I did as I said, I'm just gonna find out if this stuff is true or not. And what converted me out there was was two things one was being having the Bible left by one of the delegates at the intervarsity Convention which went on that that winter when I was away and secondly was just coming to the realization.

That the that it was the life of Paul's the change in the life of Paul that actually converted me. And I just us I didn't doubt the basic historical details. He changed on the road to Damascus or somewhere there.

I read his letters and I just said to myself there is nothing that could have convinced this man. Hmm other than meeting the Resurrected Christ. You know the Christians could have jumped him on the road and say, you know, Paul Saul.

We know where your family live. We've had enough of this persecution nonsense and that may have stopped him. But would not have made him the convinced evangelist when you read his letters. And I just came to the conclusion under God that Jesus was raised like the Bible said and then I just kind of went, huh?

Okay, then.

David Ould's Conversion and Ministry in a Secular Culture

So how long were you here in the States then. I was here for you. Oh just for one year. Okay, but you still know something about the the culture here. It's it's different than than Australia. Australia is a much more secular culture.

And so given how secular we all are viewing ourselves that that's saying a lot yourself secular here and yet.

There's a phenomenal amount of public Christian expression. So the battle is on here as I see it on whether that Christian expression can take place in certain formats in certain loci. But Australia is a very different country.

It's what you just don't get public religious expression. And so when you do it gets mocked or ridiculed and on there, you know. You can't get a serious Christian guy. We just managed to get a guy on on on on the the Refined talk show on I'm on ABC a guy called John Lennox pressure John Lennox.

Oh sure. Yeah Yeah, he was on the Q &A on Monday just before we left. But that was a rarity normally get on some some some wing bat Raging and so we're actually trying to go go back and thought the counter thing.

Of course is that where where we're ministering? It's the right on Sydney Harbour in Sydney quite well-to-do quite a lot of middle-class people a lot of him went to private schools. Had chapels maybe themselves went to church when they were younger.

And so a lot of them are Familiar with Christian things kind of the language. Three with Christian culture church cultures. And so a lot of our job is to give them a good experience of church though. That they can enjoy and engage them again with the Lord Jesus Christ are from the page of the Bible and we're having.

But we're having some success Doing that particularly through wedding ministries as well couples coming to us when they want to get married. We've got a pretty church building.

That's what brings them in but what keeps them. I think I saw that wedding thing on the on the website. You know, hey come get married. We are so but it's. It's really one person at a time type thing.

Oh for sure. There is no there are some organizations as um.

Again Sydney organizations mainly to the Center for public Christianity has come out of Sydney and they're working hard to get good positive intellectually credible Speech about Jesus. So they were responsible for getting John Lennox onto the onto Q &A and So they're trying to do stuff, but no, it's not in the public way that it is here.

So it's secular in that in that other sense. When it happens, it does happen.

Australia is a very understated country. A Very informal a very informal. I mean, I was just calling you James without even thinking. Yeah. Well, not only that but I Discovered that the one the one item that I really did not need to have brought with me Let's high was was my tie.

That's right. And in fact the first night, what did I what did I wear? The first a bow tie probably I had. I had a bow tie. They were probably very polite to you.

They were and then also in Australia's think of the tall tall poppy syndrome where they just they're cutting off the tall poppy. So if someone gay thing gets too big for the boots, you're gone. I say you're gone.

So so yeah.

Culture, Dress, and Public Christian Witness in Australia

Titles formal. I mean I was expecting at least a few of those Uncomfortable collars that you guys wear. I didn't even see that. Listen. I've got I've got one of those and it comes out for a funeral.

And I only if someone wants me to wear robes for weddings and only on really high feast days. So Christmas and Easter for our prayer book big prayer book services, but no like, you know. They they don't serve their purpose in that kind of a culture an anti-authoritarian culture.

They're there. They're really unhelpful. There are some cultures where it's useful. I'm going hospital visiting. I'll very often put my dog collar on.

Be amazed. The doors that open up. Oh sure. Sure. Now we're gonna we're gonna dive into a radio free Geneva here in a few minutes, but Heading your direction as you are in a matter literally a matter of weeks October gonna be heading down there and sort of doing a repeat in the sense of Sydney Brisbane.

Yes. But this time the focus is is primarily on Sydney. So.

What are what are we doing down there? Well, we're gonna fly you in and then actually give you a nice rest.

Before making me drool on the on a pulpit somewhere and then you are kind enough to.

To agree to come and do a weekend away for our church. So you're going to come away with us and talk about apologetics. Yeah, I'm guessing we are which we're very excited about. No, it's going to be a little conference center run by Anglican youth.

Works on the water. Very nice.

And then are there are there seagulls around? Not. Well. Now explaining that Finding Nemo was actually a historical documentary. Absolutely. Oh, it is.

Fish and chips on Sydney Harbour. I got dive-bombed.

No, it's not when you have to when you have to sit there with your legs up kicking at them to keep them away from. Your fish and chips. Yeah.

We're hoping we're just finalizing a public Debate with Abdullah Kunde who I know is a as an often time caller. Yes, it's your show and a prominent Islamic apologist in Sydney, so we're just finalizing that.

I can't say anything more because we're just trying to get the details arranged and maybe Get a big organization in and then we've got you off doing some filming with another organization. And then we are we getting you to more theological college as well to speak to the students there.

Which I did last time which you did last time and they're they're very keen to have you back. And then we're going to fly you up to to Bris Vegas. Bris Vegas, is that what it's called? That's what the people from Sydney call it.

Oh.

Why is that? I think this is all like flashy and nice up there. Oh sunny. Okay and sunny. Well, it was warmer. That's true.

It was definitely warmer. Yeah a couple fast flight north and I think that they're looking after your schedule there.

So you probably know better than I do. Well, yeah, I know that I know that I'm gonna be doing a Retreat for the same church. I was at last time, but the big thing up in Brisbane is going to be the Debate with Roger Perkins.

That's right. Yeah on one is Pentecostal ism and well not on one is Pentecostal ism but on the doctrine the trading specifically the existence of the Son of God prior to the incarnation as a divine person and that's why yesterday morning I was actually this morning riding along listening to Roger Perkins debating a Church of Christ guy and what we're gonna be doing and in fact on the dividing line between now and October is I'm going to be reviewing some of the debates that Abdullah Kunda has done with Samuel green.

Oh, yeah, and Also Roger Perkins debates, so we're gonna be doing a lot of debate review Between now and October which should be useful to both of my opponents because I'm I'm laying out I mean, no one should ever go into a debate going.

I didn't know you believe that. I mean I make it as simple as can possibly be so yeah, but that's we're gonna be doing on the dividing line, so Now last time I was there in August wasn't I that's right.

Was it August? I think it was August. So October is gonna be warmer spring. So it's gonna be a spring spring time.

Yeah, okay. Yes. Don't know ties there. Oh.

I Just I don't know I'm Reformed Baptist we don't we don't even know how to we start stammering Behind a pulpit if we don't have a tie on even though I don't think I wore a tie that when I see you didn't.

You are a very nice waistcoat. That's right. That's right a waistcoat which we call a vest here, but. Yes, yes. Okay, whatever you say I. When I was in London a few weeks gone a few a few weeks in October of February I was on a I did a television program like the second night.

I was there and the host were this Satin white vest and they call it a waistcoat. They do. It was Blindingly bad. That's not good for television. Oh, it was horrible. I could not believe they let him do that.

It's just it's terrible. So anyways, so it'll be springtime there. So I'll have to keep that in mind and I need to remember that there's no weight restriction on. How much your carry-ons weigh? Coming into Australia.

Is that right? But there is coming out. They did. They did. I'm going to have to. I I had to repack stuff and oh it was it was. Getting out was was no fun at all. And especially when you're looking forward to spending how many hours?

On a 747 or whatever. We came over on the new a 380 and it was about 14 marvelous fun-filled hours.

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It's wonderful. Well, I threw an I flew an a380 out to Sydney by as a 747. It was out of Brisbane. Out of Brisbane. It's not not the same thing. So slumming it from there. Yeah. Yeah, so well.

David you have called. In fact I think the last last time you called do we discuss the ashes or something like that. Quite possibly the. What would you mean?

The ashes where we beat Australia in the most prestigious sporting event of all time. And yet you live in. That's right, but I'm British citizen. They don't give me citizenship. Oh, and I took great delight in taking my whole family on the last day of the ashes at Sydney Cricket Ground to watch.

Australia lose to England. So so why is it that you're starting to sound more and more like one of them?

Yeah, this has happened. This is haven't twice now I've come here and someone says oh you're from Australia and a little bit of me inside has died I think after eight years in in a beautiful country of Australia.

I'm kind of just picking up the accent. Now have you been back to the UK? Only in my first year and actually this is the first we're going on an around-the-world trip. And this is the first time I've been in maybe seven years.

Really? Yeah, and you know what they're gonna say to you once they're gonna say I sound like I'm Australian. Yeah. Uh-huh. I know that's that's really right. I'm just gonna tell him to shut up. Suck it up.

Hey, can I ask one more favor? Oh sure actually actually in rich. We'll go ahead and we'll dive right into it. They don't even work the radio free Geneva intro is so long. Anyways, that's that's fine.

That's what about isn't it?

My daughter asked me at the mall today if I've ever been on television and I had to say to her sadly no. Would she be disappointed? She said no, but I see a webcam there. That's the next best thing. Am I on that?

No, you're not you know, it's you'd have to come over here. Let's come around and give you a wave. Oh, you could do that. Right. Well, yes, is it see we get we can share the show the microphone say there you go see there Harris I'm on the TV.

It's hard to get Christians on TV in Australia, I guess we sensible ones. So you get the as you said you get the nutburgers, but you don't get the.

We we've got this problem in Australia that there's a an organization called the Australian Christian Lobby who speak out about everything and their strapline is I think some it's something like values for Australia and Just makes you want to go.

Because values is being good, which is my friend say it with me the opposite of the gospel. Tells my kids and they went they went Sunday morning values Saturday morning fun.

Aha, well, I missed all that while I was down there. Y 'all kept me pretty busy. I didn't. I didn't see much in the way of a television. That's a down there, which I probably was. It's all American junk.

Anyway, yeah, we probably exported to you. Anyway, well, thank you for coming in and I'm sorry that it's 147 degrees. Have we have. I not told you so many times you want me a little bit hot.

And right now it's not bad. It's not too bad. Is it. I should buy an egg just for the sake of trying to fry.

We had 118 a couple weeks that is only it's only like 107 today. It's only a hundred and seven. Yeah, it's so it's 11 degrees cooler. Positively bar me. It is a little it is a little warm here, but thank you very very much and We're gonna dive right into radio free Geneva.

Reformed Theology, Election, and Predestination in Bob Coy's Sermon

I don't like Calvinist because they've chosen to follow John Calvin instead of Jesus Christ. I have a problem with them. They're following men instead of the Word of God.

Our helper he amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing.

On top of my feet and crying out he died. For all those who elected were selected.

For still our ancient foe Does seek to work us woe. His craft and power are great and done with cruel. Well, first of all James I'm very ignorant of the Reformers. I think I probably know more about Calvinism than most of the people who call themselves Calvinist.

Strength confide our striving would be.

But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that who so ever.

We're not the right man on our side the man of God's own true.

Ladies and gentlemen James White is a hyper Calvinist. Now, whatever we do in Baptist life We don't need to be teaming up with hyper Calvinist. You ask who that may be Christ Jesus.

I Said the other day in class that I don't understand the difference between hyper Calvinism and Calvinism. It seems to me that Calvin was a hyper Calvinist. Right, I don't think there is typically any difference between Calvinism and hyper Calvinism.

Let's follow his name. Read my book from age to age.

And now from our underground bunker hidden deep beneath Liberty University where no one would think to look safe from those modern Calvinists Dave Hunt fans and those who have read and Reread George Bryson's book.

We are radio free Geneva. Broadcasting the truth about God's freedom to say his own eternal glory.

And here we go, we need to press on in our review of Bob Coy's sermon on Calvinism. We haven't been getting very far, especially if we keep playing things like the Calvinists don't believe in any of the solos.

That we I bet you I bet you David didn't get to hear that one. You were traveling you they didn't get to hear and no, but no no, we're not playing it. We're not gonna know we're not gonna put everybody through that once again, but we need to press on with.

With Bob Coy's discussion of reformed theology picking up right where we left off last time. Let's dive right in for this end.

We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust the Living God who is the Savior of all men all men.

First John 2 and 2. Okay, that's where we had. I had actually backed it up just a little bit there so that we could take a look at. I'm assuming that that was first Timothy 4 10 and Specifically so as to point out Yeah Who is the Savior of all people ESV and for some reason this this last phrase?

Malista Pistone didn't get quoted there and and that is Specifically or especially of those who believe. And I was gonna let me let me just back that up my miss may make sure I didn't. Didn't miss anything.

Okay, let's let's make sure we got here.

For this end. We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust the Living God who is the Savior of all men all men. Yep, first John 2 and 2.

Is the propitiation of our sins? Yeah, we'll get first on to do a sec. That's definitely first Timothy 4 10 just so strange to stop at that point I'm not making an accusation That Bob is trying to hide something or that he's trying to you know, I Don't get the feeling in any way shape or form That this man is in any way shape or form deceptive.