Talking Southern Baptist Life with Tom Buck

Greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. I am almost tempted to say a dividing line where I will not mention any of the insanity going on in the world today, but then again, we wouldn't be able to talk about anything if I did that.

So I won't say that we won't talk about insanity in general, but we'll just limit it to this.

Particular area. Maybe, I don't know.

Anyway, we're not going to be talking, no screenshots today, any of that kind of stuff. Not that we couldn't.

Oh, believe me.

We've got more since yesterday. But, actually, it is the beginning of June, and every few years that means, for some reason, the Southern Baptist Convention shows up here in Phoenix. And I, they did pretty well this time around, because we are so far below normal.

I think today we're going to be like nine degrees below normal or something like that. We'll be at 118 a week from now, so it all evens out, I guess. I guess that's what normals are all about, averages.

But the Southern Baptist Convention's in town, and so that means, for example, on Sunday, Sunday morning for our Sunday school at Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, we had so many visitors that we could not use our regular adult Sunday school class.

We had to go into the sanctuary for our adult Sunday school class, because we were packed out. It was great. I felt badly for the people who came, because I was preaching, and they didn't get the good preacher.

They got the B team, or C team, depending on how you want to look at it. But we have lots and lots of Southern Baptists in town right now, and today and tomorrow we're actually going to woo a couple of those into the bunker, and they will survive this experience, actually.

Because, believe it or not, there are a few Southern Baptists that actually like me. Why, I'm not sure, but possibly I have something on them, and maybe I'm blackmailing them or something like that. That's a possibility.

I think that's the only way I get friends, actually, is I have things on people. But now you know why I can't understand? Now you're getting it. So I'm joined in studio today by one of those Southern Baptists that we threatened with, I don't know, exposure.

Actually, no, I'm joined by Pastor Tom Buck. Hi, Tom, how are you doing? Thanks for joining me in the spacious studios here below Bruton-Parker.

Oh, it's great.

I was amazed at how you've got this so securely beneath Bruton-Parker.

That's right, in Phoenix.

Well, they're just down the street. I should have taken a picture when I went by and brought it to you from the booth. I have to go back tonight.

Oh, you're due. Have you thought about shaving? Hat, different clothing, we'll give you something.

I might need to do that.

Because you're doomed now. Now, believe me, hanging out with me is dangerous for anybody these days, because you can have entire programs done about you, TV shows, The Hawaiian Yards, just simply for showing up in the studio.

It's a strange day. But I'm trying to remember now, how did we first... I remember Dallas. I remember flying in, you picked me up, and we stopped at some sort of steak place on the way out to Lindale's, I recall.

We did, but that's not how we first met.

Where did we first meet?

In Florida. It's been a long time ago.

Oh, that's right, at the Founders' thing?

It wasn't at the Founders' thing. There was a conference, Salvation by Grace, I believe the conference was named. I had been impacted by your ministry. This is probably, goodness, I've been here 12 years, so probably about 16, 17 years ago.

Okay, that's when you were still... 10 years is the cutoff. Well, let's put it this way.

I asked if I could go out to lunch with you, and you wanted to go to Wendy's and have burgers and fries. So that's how long ago it's been.

All right.

No, I still go to Wendy's.

You still go to Wendy's?

Yeah, I do.

But anyway, I had been so impacted by your ministry in a couple of ways. One was moving me from a Calvinist with a lisp.

You remember in the stage cage?

Tuip.

Oh, Tuip, okay. So I went from being Tuip to Tulip. Down in Florida where I was, there was a high level or a high number, I should say, of Roman Catholics. And I was trying to reach the Roman Catholic community there with the gospel, because that's the only way we were going to make inroads, because it was so full.

And I had grown up with so much misinformation about Catholicism. I would go out and say, well, Roman Catholicism believes that you're saved by works and not by grace. And of course, that is not a correct way to frame the argument.

And so I read your books. It made a huge impact on me. It absolutely transformed my ability to witness to Roman Catholics. We ended up having about 60 percent of our conversions in our church in Florida were from Roman Catholicism.

I led a nun to the Lord. We baptized her in the church. All of the fruit of having learned from what you had produced.

What did she do after that?

She left Roman Catholicism completely and took a job. She had family that were members of her church. She'd come and visit. She would leave furious and angry with me, say, I hate that man, which is what most people do after they meet me.

And then eventually, the gospel just kept working on her, and she trusted Christ. So it was this wonderful thing.

Early Connections in Florida and the Catholic Evangelism Impact

Okay, now remembering the Roman Catholic connection and the Florida connection. And so how did I get out to Lindale at first? The first time I did something on Islam, but I also did the Cantor thing.

Right. Well, while I was in Florida as well, when the Cantor situation and the debate with you and Tom Ascol, I'm not as good of friends with Tom Ascol, but we're fairly good acquaintances. And so he was just a little bit south of me.

And all of that was kind of percolating with the Cantor situation. We talked about that when I went down to the Salvation by Grace Conference. I can't remember what the name of it was.

2006 is when we were supposed to have that.

So I think it was 2004, 2005, maybe sometime when we first met. And then somewhere along the line, we interacted about that. And when I got to Dallas, I was a connection with you because he was there.

And I was talking with you about the fact that he had moved there.

And so I put the word out that we wanted to... That's right. I put the word out that we wanted to address this issue somewhere near Dallas. The closest we could get was... How far is Lindale from Dallas?

It's 90 miles.

Yeah.

It was as close as you could get.

The blast circumference is pretty big.

Well, listen, I mean, honestly, I've taken heat for having you come in and say, how could you allow... From Southern Baptist people, how could you allow James White to come in and take your pulpit to deal with the Ergen-Kanner thing?

And I felt that I've kind of always been desirous of being committed to the truth, being the central for everything. And this was something in the convention that kept being covered up. And I felt like that it was appropriate to address it.

You had never made the case.

In Toto.

In Toto, right. And so you wanted to do that. And we said, hey, you did on Tuesday night. We didn't even do it in a normal worship service or anything of that nature. The next night you did something on Islam.

Right.

Which was even way more attended.

Oh, yes, it was.

Oh, yeah.

It was the recording that we really needed. Which we did put out there for quite some time. Yeah. Okay. So, and then I don't know how long ago it was after that. I know we came back and spoke at the school there.

You did. You were at Jacksonville Seminary.

Right.

And that was not connected to our church at all in that. But Dr. Holmes, which is a great guy that's there, had you all come in. Had you come in.

Right.

And then the last time wasn't all that long ago.

It's been about two years now.

It's been that long ago since.

At least a year and a half.

Yeah, somewhere in there. Because I know when you were driving me back to Dallas, we went by Keith Green's grave. And had to make the pilgrimage as a child of the 80s. Had to make the pilgrimage to Keith Green's grave.

So, but yeah. And I'm going to be spending some time in Texas in November, too. So, we're trying to figure out how to work something out there, too. So, you've somehow survived the association. It probably hasn't been easy.

Well, I'm sure it's likewise. But anyway, on the other side.

Not really. No, not really.

I mean, Reformed Baptists tend to be somewhat, I don't know. Well, let's just say amongst some Southern Baptists, I do have a reputation for some strange reason. I don't know why. I'm just such a nice guy.

I'm not controversial about anything. But there is this group. I do remember seeing you at some of my events in Texas. The last time was at the premiere of Unpopular, the movie. And you looked great in your overalls.

You were looking like a...

I don't remember having overalls on.

Oh, you were in overalls.

I was.

Oh, you were.

Because there was this line of folks that wanted to talk to me afterwards. And I had a situation come up where I thought, you know, I bet you Tom would be the person to talk to this young man. And I remember seeing you over there.

And I just remember being struck by the vision of the tall guy in the overalls. And so you were kind enough to help me out with that situation. And then I very distinctly remember you at a certain debate that took place in Dallas about a year...

How long ago was it now?

Oh, that's... Two years ago. Yeah, I was flying in from somewhere. I can't remember where I flew in. In fact, I flew in the airport coming back home from a conference I was doing or something and drove straight to there.

And I was afraid I wouldn't be able to stay awake. But that was... But it kept you awake? Oh, it kept me awake. I remember distinctly... You probably don't remember this, but I remember when the other presenter...

Leighton Flowers, I think he was there.

Yes, Dr. Flowers. Dr. Flowers was presenting and he was getting into it.

Oh, he was preaching.

He was preaching.

There is a reason why his sermon notes are in plastic. Because if they weren't, by the time he got to the end of the page, he wouldn't be able to read the stuff anymore.

Yeah, he was spewing, that's for sure.

He was, yeah.

And so I was doing something. I don't know what it was as he was going on. I think I might have been looking at scripture, trying to figure out where this was coming from. But as I'm looking down, the person who was with me, which was my associate, said, you've got to look at James.

He's giving you the eye. I look up and you're going...

I'm like...

Actually, I think I do remember that because you were down here to my left, as I recall.

Yes, I was.

Yes, I think I was.

And it was the look of amazement, like, can you believe this?

Can you believe what's going on here? Yeah, yeah, I do recall that. So, yes, you were one of the eyewitnesses to the sort of Romans 9 debate, or at least half Romans. Sort of a part of Romans 9 and then total depravity debate or something along those lines, I guess.

Yeah, we covered a lot of ground in scripture. A lot of scriptures were pulled out, but Romans 9 was not the...

Predominant, no. ...primary focus, which was supposed to be the main thing. So I get the feeling then you wouldn't necessarily self-identify as with the traditionalist wing of the Southern Baptist Convention.

No, I don't. I mean, I have good friends who are traditionalists and we get along fine, many of them.

This terminology is fairly new.

Yes, that's the odd thing about it.

Because the term traditionalist...

Well, they do. I mean, they do put it in quotes now. I've noticed that they're starting to put that in quotes. I don't know if there's a reason behind that, if they're trying to say, hey, you know, we understand that this isn't the doctrine that's always been.

I don't know why, but they're putting the word traditionalist in quotes.

But the whole idea behind it is that this is the traditional Southern Baptist view in opposition to Neo-Calvinism or the New Calvinism or whatever. And yet, historically, I was enjoying the Founders Conference tweets today, because they had stuff like, one of them was, how many of the...

OK, how many of the delegates to the first Southern Baptist Convention came from 1689 churches?

OK, I didn't see that.

How many?

All of them.

Wow.

All of them. Yeah, that was 300, I forget the number, 389, something like that.

And it said all of them.

So the Anabaptists weren't there yet.

Well, they were meeting with the Mennonites, because that's really who the Mennonites are. But anyway, yeah, so anybody who knows Southern Baptist history knows it. I'm sorry, it's just a false narrative to say that we are the traditionalist ones, and this is something new that has been smuggled in.

But if that's the whole meaning of traditionalist, why put it in air quotes? I don't get it.

Yeah, I don't either. I mean, it's an odd thing, because out of one side of their mouths, and I don't mean... I don't want to impugn anybody by this, so this may sound like this. But out of one side of their mouths, they say, we understand there's two streams that come out of the Southern Baptist Convention and Sandy Creek or whatever the other one.

But on the other side, they want to, or they talk in such a way that we just kind of sprung out of the blue somewhere. But yet when you read the New Hampshire Confession, which is the confession that the Baptist faith and message was formed from, even though it's a little...

Obviously, the New Hampshire Confession is weaker, and was intentionally weaker. They wanted it to be weaker than something like the 1689 Confession. But still yet, you take the New Hampshire Confession and put it upside of the traditionalist statement, and it would be unrecognizable.

I think if you took the traditionalist statement and handed it to someone who was a part of the New Hampshire Confession construction, they would go, this is Arminianism. This is not in any way reflective of what we believe.

So that's the thing that I don't understand from it. I think that, I guess if I were to assess it, and they probably might find this to be ungracious or whatever, but I would assess that they've kind of lost their footing to some degree or another.

The younger generation has been embracing reform doctrine for some time. And I do believe that there is a good percentage of that that is faddish, that it's not, that the convictions are... They're five pointers.

They're not necessarily reformed.

There's much more to being reformed than the five points.

And I learned that myself. I'll tell you a little bit about that if you're interested in a moment. But I think that they're seeing this large growth, and then you have groups like the Founders and Nine Marks.

And I think they've seen them as threatening. But I'm going to tell you that, you know, Tom Askall, I don't think they probably think Tom is. I mean, for instance, David Allen and Tom are very good friends.

I mean, they were just talking when I left the convention not too long ago. And I think they're both dear brothers in Christ. They both love the Lord. You know, David Allen is one of the nicest guys I know.

I say the same thing about you. So maybe people think I just know a lot of bad people. But seriously, you know, apart from one another, when I'm with each of you, it's enjoyable to be with. But I can't get the two groups together for some reason.

Same thing with Mark Dever. I mean, Mark is absolutely the least political animal that you'll ever find. He just simply wants to speak the truth of God's Word and talk about healthy churches. And it just so happens to be that the Reformed doctrine is where he sits in his ecclesiology of what makes a healthy church.

And I agree with him on that. That's kind of how I evolved from that. I came out of Dallas Seminary. I didn't go to SBC Seminary because they were just so liberal when I went. In fact, when I was going to go to college, I chose to go to Moody.

It's where your dad went, right? And so...

Class of 52 or 53, yeah.

I had grown up in a very liberal Southern Baptist church. My pastor did not believe in miracles in the Bible. And I know that wasn't your experience in Southern Baptist life.

Well, no, but I wasn't raised Southern Baptist. I was raised General Association, regular Baptist, sort of independent fundamentalist Baptist type thing. Anybody who didn't believe in miracles would just...

Yeah.

Well, you eventually, though, were in a Southern Baptist church in Phoenix, right?

I started Southern Baptist church in 1977.

Well, that would have been in the 70s when I was... And your experience there was not...

Oh, no, no. Richard Jackson in North Phoenix was very conservative.

Of course, Crystal was as well. But I was in East Tennessee, so most of them were coming out of Southeastern. Southeastern was very liberal. Of course, Southern was very liberal at the time. My pastor preached a sermon on the demoniac when Jesus encounters the demoniac.

And he says to him that my name is Lesion or Lesion, whatever, and cast the demons into the swine. So here's how he preached it. He said that when Jesus asked him his name, he responded by saying, I'm just one of many.

And this was the young man had lost his total self-identity in the corporate world of pig farmers who had taken advantage... This is true. This is a sermon I'm listening to. And how that they had just depressed this young man that now he no longer even saw himself as an individual, but just one of many people.

Jesus liberated him from that. And then to punish the corporate pig farmers, drove the swine into the water. He was a graduate of Southeastern Seminary. That's the kind of preaching I grew up under. But I listened every night or whenever I could.

And on the weekends would listen to WNBI out of Chattanooga. Listen to these guys preach the word. I'm like, that's how you handle scripture, even as a young man. So I went to Moody and then went to DTS.

But while I was at DTS, I really got caught up in the church growth movement. Andy Stanley had been there a couple of years before me. His church was booming. I got out. That's what I wanted to do. I came out a four point guy, as most of the guys are at DTS.

And two things happened to me as I was listening to, I don't know when I started listening to Dividing Lines, but reading similar material and similar books and reading through the scriptures, I became convinced, firmly convinced that you cannot believe in substitutionary atonement and deny that Christ came to die for a particular people.

I became convinced that from John 10, 10. I could not reconcile that. I'm laying my life down for my sheep. And then in the same context, you're not my sheep. I couldn't, I just could not reconcile that.

The harmony of the Trinity in Ephesians 1, that the Father elected certain people. Then you have the Spirit also sealing a certain group of people. And then an indiscriminate group of people, Christ coming and dying for.

I mean, you've said these things many, many times, but as I got into the Word, there was.

Still like hearing them.

There was no, there was no way of, I could not deny it anymore. And then I began to realize that my methodology was out of sync with my theology. And I've even described it, the Lord kind of took me behind the shed, the theological shed, and just gave me a theological whipping, if you will, to show me that you are claiming to believe this, but yet your practice does not fit what you believe theologically.

That can be really painful.

It was, it was very painful. I had to, I had to go to my church, before my church and repent. And I had a big crowd that Sunday, because I said, next week, I'm going to tell you how I've been wrong about so many things.

Hmm.

And that was this in, this was in Florida, in Florida.

Okay.

And, uh, which is why you ended up in Texas.

Well, no, no, no. It's not why I did the, the Lord was gracious and we, we, and it worked. Oh, it did. The church, uh, I took him to the scriptures and, and I had earned the respect and, uh,.

How long had you been there?

Three years.

Okay.

I stayed another nine.

Okay.

And, uh, so it was a combination of you and also, uh, the nine marks book of the marks of a healthy church. And that, those things just really transformed my ministry.

Wow.

So, uh, back to the, uh, the traditionalists, uh, so you, so you've been in Lindale, how long then?

Uh, 11 and a half years. It's hard to believe.

Yeah, it is, man. I'll tell you, uh, cause you start talking about, it just means I've been doing this for a long time.

You have.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's just the riches in there going, we're a bunch of, there's a fair amount of gray in the, uh, in the studio and in the other, other room today. Um, but, uh, so when you, you go there, uh, what's, what's the church's perspective at the time?

Are they, are they looking for someone like you?

You talking about Lindale?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, Lindale was looking for somebody. Here's the odd thing because, uh, they called DTS, Dallas Theological Seminary, because they had been heavily influenced by S. Louis Johnson. I don't know if you know who S. Louis Johnson is.

So.

Where's the, I need something to get me.

Sorry.

A tribal church to make me feel a little better.

Well, not that you wouldn't know who people are, but a lot of people don't know S. Louis Johnson.

Uh, I, I, one of the last times that, that I, one of the earliest times I spoke at Countryside, he was about four pews back.

Oh, wow.

While I was preaching. That puts a little pressure on you. Uh, and he, he said he really enjoyed the exegesis. So, uh, yeah, but yeah, no, uh, I think everybody knows S. Louis Johnson.

His commentary in Romans, it was just put out not too long ago.

Yeah, that's right, that's right.

Right.

Well, he, years ago, the church had, First Baptist, where I am now in Lyndale, had needed an interim. And that was back when Lyndale would have been very rural. Now I know you visited and you probably thought it was about as rural as you can get.

Well, no, I've been to more rural places. Trust me, I have, I have. There's a, there's a freeway nearby and there's a waffle house.

But back, back then there wouldn't have been anything there as far as you wouldn't have, you know, the type of places you have now there. So anyway, they were looking for, they didn't have a lot of people to come in.

That's because every time they build something, the, the, uh, the twisters come through.

Exactly. That's exactly right.

I mean, wow, you guys have just been dodging those things right and left recently.

So S. Louis Johnson came out and was an interim for a year or so.

Really?

And while he was there, there were several people who, uh, one of the fellas name is Bubba Williams. He's still in our church, uh, not, he's, uh, quite elderly now, but he and several of the guys were just impacted by the doctrines of grace under S. Louis Johnson.

And they had not had a pastor. Well, they did have a pastor right after him. S. Louis Johnson led them to get the next pastor. He ended up leaving, that pastor did, unfortunately under some unfortunate circumstances.

And they never did for several years, went through a string. They, you know, had Bill Heibel's model guy come in and, and, you know, how it was during the eighties and nineties. And so they decided, uh, they put together a pulpit committee and Bubba Williams was on there as well as several other of the old guys said, we're going to bring somebody in this reform.

So they called Dallas seminary and they said, we're looking for a guy who is a five point Calvinist, Southern Baptist and dispensational.

So they said that list wasn't overly long.

No, they said, we know one guy, his name's Tom, but down in Florida, just simply because I graduated there. I'm not nearly as dispensational as I used to be. And, uh, several people have told me, they've heard me preach, said, you're not even dispensational.

At all. You just, you just, you're not a leaky dispensationalist, you got a big old hole in the bottom of the.

That's what they're saying. They're saying, no, the way you handle the text, you're not dispensational. I said, well, I hadn't preached Daniel revelation yet. But, uh, they called me up. I wasn't looking to go anywhere, wrote me a letter actually, and said, this is what they were looking for.

And they were in East Texas. And, um, I have a, I have a real heart for revitalization in churches, both the a lot theologically and, um, churches are just dying number wise. And so I'd gone to Florida.

It's one reason when Florida, they were down to 50. So this church was looking for, they were 700, 800 people in attendance. And they were looking for someone like that. And I told them, I said, you know, if you've gone, you know, 10, 15 years without any true expeditional preaching and have not, you know, really had consistent reform doctrine, uh, people are not going to be real excited about that.

And they said, oh no, no, they will. And the entire pulpit can be one of that. Long story short.

Public committees don't always represent the entirety of the congregation.

I told him it would, I said, it would take seven years to, you know, I, and I told him, I said, I will stick it out. I will come and I will go through the difficult times, but you must go through it with me.

And, um, we did, and it was difficult. We, we lost several hundred people over a period of time. And some of it was, was, you know, we were practicing church discipline and, uh, their constitution allowed for all these things.

So I simply went in and said, we're going to start living under the constitution. And, uh, so there are some positives in a Baptist church, you know, that you can use that if you have the right form there, it's hard for them to target against it.

Now, it was a single pastor, elderly church, it's not now, but, uh, it was, but all the.

Power was in the senior pastor.

Well, sorta.

Constitutionally it was.

Yeah.

But we, we both know that, uh, how, how that all ends up.

Well, he can, uh, senior pastor authority to point all committees. So it made it pretty powerful. And so it was interesting when I moved the church away from that to a plurality of elders that some accused me of a power grab.

And I'm like, actually, I'm actually digesting.

So the Lord has been gracious in that.

So the interesting thing is, is by the way, it takes time to, to train up leadership like that though.

Well, it does. Well, you know, after being there seven years, one of the guys on the pulpit committee, wonderful man by the name of Jerry came by, uh, one Sunday evening or Wednesday evening, we're having a meal at the church and he's probably in his seventies.

And he said, um, you were exactly right. About seven years, over seven years, it would date. He said, but it's been worth it. So, and of course, uh, traditionalism has just, uh, that they're right in one sense that over time that certain, um, um, issues of anti-reform doctrine have crept into the church, Southern Baptist church life.

There's no doubt of that, but it doesn't take its roots back into the beginning of the convention. But the more important thing is you take the doctrine of, uh, the fall of man and you wouldn't even get your average Southern Baptist that I run into that would agree with that.

Now, you might agree with, with, with the issue of saying that, that we don't inherit the guilt of Adam, right? That's the thing that's the most stunning to me.

Yeah.

The other stuff that they say is fairly standard, standard, mainstream, synergist, muddied up, you know, uh, um, uh, soteriology that you get in Southern Baptist churches.

The people they've put out to defend them are coming up with some very interesting variations on the theme. Let's just put it that way. But yeah, the stuff about original sin, uh, that that's really where a lot of people have said, Hey, do you, do you guys, you know, really want to get that close to plagianism?

I mean, I mean, Oh, don't, don't use that term. But you're, you're the ones, you know, you know, the history of these things. Why, why are you, why are you going there? Why do you think they are going there?

I think they're going there because they feel the need to disavow every point of the tulip, if you will. So we're going to disavow it all because I think they do understand. And again, this is hard because you speculate once in somebody's mind and that's difficult to do or impossible to do.

But they, they believe that, and rightly so, that if you begin with a, what I'll call a biblical position of total depravity, that there's only one direction you can go. And so you have to dismantle, you can't be a Calvinist with a lisp and be consistent.

As I was saying, you cannot be a TP Calvinist, as I said, as many Southern Baptists were for so long time and be consistent. Most Southern Baptists are TP Calvinists. And, but I think they see the inconsistency in that.