Are Couples Who Refuse to Have Kids Basically Selfish Jerks?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett. And today we seek to answer the age old question, are couples who refuse to have kids basically selfish jerks?

So this is a episode that I've actually been looking forward to doing myself because I am actually the person who was a bit of a selfish jerk as it came to this topic. And now, thankfully, through the mercy of the Lord, after having it brought to my attention, I've gotten to have a kid myself and really come to realize just how great of a gift it is to have kids.

And so I'm really excited to talk about this subject with you, Tim, and kind of pick your brain as it comes to some of the questions that I have in mind that I've been thinking through. And I think I have a special ability to have a certain type of perspective, having been the selfish person myself.

So hopefully I can ask you some pretty good questions that you can clarify, because I think what I have in mind is probably what a lot of people are thinking in general, which is it's really kind of interesting.

I think the general consensus right now in our society, if you go on social media, if you watch TV, if you just kind of observe people and how they live their lives, I think the general kind of consensus that you're going to get is that most people kind of think of children as a bit of a burden and kind of like a curse really, if you want to put it that way.

It seems like kids are something that really you just want to avoid at all costs almost. Like you go to the restaurant and you see the married couple and their baby is crying and being really loud. And I think most people's response immediately is to think like, wow, this is really inconveniencing my dinner.

The children that are screaming and crying for whatever reason. And so I think in general, most people kind of most unbelievers view children as a bit of a curse. But then the interesting thing to as I've been thinking about this subject, as I've been observing people and what they think about children, one of the interesting things is I've actually kind of come to the conclusion myself, at least anecdotally, that really it seems like most Christians kind of have the same response to.

Has that been your experience as well?

Certainly. Yeah. We're living in a society right now that basically despises children and despises the idea of having them. I can tell you stories about like what you're talking about. My wife just went to the grocery store.

And I think just a few days ago, she had an experience where there was a man who was essentially staring at her with, you know, all five of our kids at the grocery store. And, you know, they weren't being crazy or anything else, but he was just looking at her and basically came up to her at some point and said, you know, I pity you, you know, having to deal with all these kids.

And she, you know, she just looked at him like, you know, why? But he quickly changed his tone after she told him, you know, essentially that she doesn't view her kids as a curse and she's very thankful for everything else.

She should have pressed him. No, tell me why. Tell me why.

No, she did. She did. She pressed him. Like, you know, why would I need to be pitied? You know, I love my kids, that kind of thing. But you're certainly living in a society right now that is hostile to the idea of kids.

You're living in a world that really is dead set on killing as many of them as you can. And we're persuaded, we're living in a delusion where we're persuaded that the world is overpopulated and the only hope for humanity is basically to cull the herd, so to speak.

And so that's, I mean, those are things that are happening at a societal level. If you just go to any kind of college or major university, and you're going to find that there is a hostility towards children that is satanic.

I mean, it really is satanic. Satan has a vested interest in trying to destroy us. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he wants us to declare war on the idea of children. And there's been plenty of societies that essentially have done that and, you know, are in deep trouble because they're not replacing their population as far as those things are concerned.

But then, you know, the church is worldly and is doing the same kind of thing. And so it's, you know, you're living in a culture right now that's hostile to kids, period. And then the church typically follows the suit.

Right. And one of the things I wanted to ask you starting off is, you know, why exactly is that? I mean, it seems like, like you said just a second ago, kids are basically a very important building block when it comes to creating any sort of society in general.

So why is it that so many people, including Christians, are so seemingly repelled at the thought of having kids?

Yeah, I mean, there's no one answer to that kind of question, obviously. But, you know, I do think you have to realize that we are living in a world that is held captive by the evil one. And, you know, Satan is a murderer.

He is a murderer. And he has designs to basically destroy us at almost every single level. And that is his character. And so everything that he promises is ultimately attempting to undermine God's basic plan for humanity.

And he's like one of those, you know, serial killer kind of friends who is seeking you harm. You know, I mean, when you think about his plans, like he promises good, he promises pleasure, he promises life, but then, you know, there's a dagger, you know, underneath that plan that he intends to put in your back.

And so there is a hostility that he has towards the idea of children, period, because they stand so central to God's actual plans for the world. And there's no greater sign of life than children. And he's devoted to death.

So there's that. I mean, there's a spiritual battle that's going on along those lines. But then, you know, the logic of the world is essentially that, you know, we're living in order to be happy. And if you're thinking about happiness as involving just getting everything you want and having no one who stands in the way of your dreams and your goal and your plans and your vision and everything else, then kids fundamentally are going to be individuals who, they're either going to teach you that it's more blessed to give than receive, as the Bible says.

So they're going to be objects that stand in the way of your own personal fulfillment, your own personal happiness. I mean, you know, it takes thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to raise a child, you know, from start to finish.

And there's nothing really more helpless than a child. You know, as a child comes into the world, they come into the world needy and they need your time. They need your money. They need your resources.

You know, they're going to stand in the way of, you know, the teaching of feminism at that point, which basically tells women that they're going to find their ultimate fulfillment in being just like men and taking on the jobs of men.

And so, you know, if you want to kill all of your career aspirations, then you have a kid. And that's going to stand in the way of your goals and your plans and the things you want to do. And I mean, at a practical level, I mean, you can't really help.

But like if you have kids, like you can't do the things that you used to do. You don't have the freedom of your time that you used to have. You don't have freedom of money. You know, when I was a single person, if I wanted to go, you know, go to a restaurant, I'd go to a restaurant.

If I want to go see some, you know, family in a different city, I just, you know, get in my car and grab a few clothes and go drive, you know, and do that kind of thing. I mean, I remember when I was in early college, there were times where I was a little bit lonely and I wanted to go visit my aunt or something like that.

And I just packed up and drove an hour away and just hung out with them for a little bit. And there's nothing to stop me from doing that kind of thing, you know. But then when you have kids, it's a big production and there's a lot to it.

And we're selfish, you know. So we basically, if you're looking at everything through the lens of what does it do for me kind of thing and does it stand in the way of my me time and my happiness. And, you know, kids can be burdens in that kind of way.

Right. One thing I always tell people is whenever, you know, people are meeting my daughter for the first time, one of the things that I always tell them that I've come to realize is just like marriage.

When you first get married, you immediately realize a lot of the ways in which you're a very selfish person in general. And that's just because all of a sudden you're having to change your life in significant ways.

And you've got to start thinking about this other person in a very significant way. So now your time is not your own anymore. You know, even things like your body isn't your own anymore in marriage. And so in a lot of ways, it reveals a lot of selfishness that has just never been challenged before in your life.

But then even more so, children, you know, they take that to a whole new level, basically, because they're affecting they're affecting pretty much everything about your life. Once you have a kid, you know, it fundamentally changes the way that that you live your life.

And I'm sure the more you know, the more you add on to that, the more exaggerated that change becomes, where even like when you eat and when you sleep, those are no longer things to decide when you're going to do all the time.

I mean, it's an awesome, like, not in the trite sense of that word, like awesome, like a cheeseburger. It is, you know, it truly is an awesome, like responsibility that an individual takes on, like when you have a kid, meaning there's no take backs at that point.

You're literally determining to give your life for this person and take full responsibility of it. And there's no like, you know, I tried that out, you know, like a pad or something.

There's no 14 day trial.

I tried, you know, I mean, you know, people, you know, ridiculously treat pets as if it's the same level. But I mean, it's just like, you know, if you don't like the pet, you can, you know, you can find it.

You can find someone to take your pet.

You can you can you can hand them off, you know, but you can't really do that with a kid. So I mean, without being thrown in jail or something like that. But I mean, it is a it is a big responsibility.

And I think a lot of people are not as mature as generations past were. So we're we're much less mature than, you know, our former generations. And so there's this sense in which individuals, they want to get married because they want to have sex.

But then, you know, they don't want all the responsibilities that come with that.

Right.

In general, they're not really. You know, there's something about like having a kid that makes you feel like an adult in a way that, you know, maybe even getting married doesn't.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah, definitely sanctifies you in a very and in a very strong sense, I guess.

Sure.

It pushes you. So I guess and in terms of thinking about, you know, this responsibility to have children, I think one of whenever whenever you think about having children or or any kind of command that God might have given for having children, probably one of the first places that most people are going to instantly think of if they've really, you know, read their Bible at all or, you know, or have even just, you know, lived in the Bible Belt or something where they've heard all the stories or whatever.

One of the first places you're going to go is probably Genesis and the first few chapters when God gives the command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.

Right.

And so so whatever whatever you think about what that means now, the the thing that you can't argue is that this this is a command that was given to Adam and Eve. So I guess so I guess my first question for you in relation to that is why exactly why exactly did God tell Adam and Eve to do this?

And I mean, it's pretty much one of the first things he tells them to do is is to be fruitful and multiply. So so why did he give the give them this command? And and so quickly to.

Sure.

I mean, he didn't just give it to Adam and Eve. So that's part of the point is that, you know, he gave that command to Adam and Eve to basically tell them who they are, where they're coming from, where they're going with what his plan is for the world.

And and so, you know, he gave it to them, but then he also gave it to Noah. So there's a repetition of it with Noah after the flood. And part of the reason why it's repeated there is just to emphasize that this indeed is a corporate command given to the entire human race and reflects God's intention for humanity at a pretty fundamental level.

So I think if you want to try to understand what's actually happening in the Bible, you can think in terms of two corporate commands that are that basically govern the, you know, the basic answer to the question, why are we here?

You know, what is God's plan for us? What is God's purpose for us? And those two corporate commands are this creation mandate that's found in Genesis. Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it.

You know, I call that essentially the the Great Commission of the Old Covenant. And so I mean, so basically, if you want to think about God's plans for humanity, first is fill the world up full of people.

That's essentially what you have there. And then the New Covenant, the other corporate command is to make disciples of all nations. And so you think in terms of these two corporate commands, one, fill the world up full of people and then to fill the world up full of disciples, essentially, if you want to think about it.

In a simplistic way. But I mean, the point, though, is just to say that God, God, his design for the world is to fill the world full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. So as you think about that kind of plan, God wants the entire earth to be filled with the knowledge of him.

And, you know, John will tell us that the time is coming and now is where God is seeking worshippers to worship him. And so God's plan is to, you know, basically fill the world up full of worshippers.

And that's his intention for humanity. That's why you're here, because someone was obedient to this plan that God had for humanity. And this reflects our design that God has designed us. And I mean, we have bodily cycles, which essentially are screaming at us every, you know, if you're a guy every day, multiple times a day, you have a cycle that is telling you that God's designed you to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth.

And, you know, if you're a woman, you have a monthly cycle that's essentially doing something very similar. That's telling you that God has designed you to be creative, to reflect certain attributes of his character.

God's a creator God, and he's designed us to create, not, you know, out of nothing, ex nihilo. But he's designed us to be creative just like he is and to bring new life into the world and to reflect his character and to fulfill his purposes.

And so, you know, God's plan is to fill the world up full of people and fill the world up full of disciples. And, you know, he obviously is doing that through the church. But then that's his design for humanity.

And that's why the world hates it so much is because it reflects these basic fundamental worldview questions why we're here. And this is inescapably God's plan. And we can't, you know, as much as we want to rebel against it and reject it.

I mean, it's obvious that God has made us to do this. And that's why, you know, pretty much everyone wants to be in a relationship of some sort. They may not want to be married. But everyone, you know, they feel deep down to their soul that they don't like this idea of just being so alone by themselves.

They know intuitively that God has designed them to couple with another human being in order to advance his purposes and the world. And, I mean, you know, I think it's just inescapable. It's just God's plan.

It's God's design for the world. It's just obvious. So that's part of what I'd say to that.

Well, one of the other things I was going to ask you was, you know, does that do these commands still stand today? I know I've heard a lot of people. And I think at one point I probably I never vocalized this, but I probably did think it if I if I had ever thought to to really put all my beliefs on this down on paper or something.

One thing that I've heard a lot of people say is essentially, you know. Yeah. All right. So, you know, God gave that the command to have to be fruitful, multiply. He gave that to Adam and Eve because the world was empty.

They were the only two people. You know, if you if you believe that God actually made Adam and Eve and did everything that he said in Genesis, literally, then there's only two people. And and someone's got to someone's got to fill up the world.

And and, you know, the the dating options are limited if you're at if you're Adam or if you're Eve. But the same the same deal for Noah. The world is empty, essentially. You know, now there's eight people, I think, instead of two.

But it's the same the same idea. Everyone was just killed in the flood. Someone's going to have to fill up the world again. But we live in a different day and age now. The world isn't empty. You know, the world is more populated than it's ever been.

And so I've heard a lot of people basically say, hey, look, those are commands given to them. They don't really apply to us anymore because because basically, you know, I guess they've been fulfilled.

I guess is the way that they would probably put is, hey, this command has been fulfilled. The world's full, you know, so so we don't really need to hold ourself to this command anymore. So my question for you is, what is your response to that objection?

Because you've already told us, hey, it still stands. So explain why why it still stands, why we can't just say, hey, you know, it's it's not why we can't say it's a different day. It's a different age.

Don't worry about that command anymore.

Sure. I mean, part of the only way that that can make any kind of sense is if essentially you go full Marcianite and just, you know, say, hey, that's the Old Testament or something along those lines. Or you can go full Andy Stanley.

When you don't hitch it.

You know, the Old Testament, because it's an embarrassment to, you know, poor old Andy. But no, I mean, like, you know, you can't you can't go that route. I mean, the Bible says it was written in former times, written for our instruction that the man of God may be competent and equipped in every good work.

I mean, we what's written in older and former times is the old covenant. We have the Old Testament that's written to us. It tells us God's basic commands for us. I mean, this is pre-Mosaic law. So, I mean, this is like, you know, these are creational features that are given to us to basically tell us, you know, why we're here.

Genesis itself is a book of origins. It's designed to answer these basic questions. And so, you know, part part of it is just, you know, individuals who are making those kind of that kind of argument, they're essentially they don't know what to do with the Old Testament.

And they don't know how to understand and apply what's actually written in the Old Testament. So part of it is that. And so, you know, the only way that you're going to come to the kind of conclusion you're saying is essentially to, you know, adopt some kind of red letter form of Christianity where you just ignore the Bible and that kind of thing.

But I mean, you know, when you just look through Genesis and one of the things you're going to find is that you're going to find all the basic features of life that God has designed for us, you know, for for every single age.

So, you know, in in the book of Genesis, you're going to learn that murder is wrong. Well, why is it, you know, why would that change over time? Right. So these are creational features. You know, God's given us dominion over the animals.

Well, you know, have we advanced far beyond that now to where now the animals should have dominion over us? You know, so in that same blessing, he blessed them, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and to do it, have dominion over the, you know, the animals.

And then you've been given plants for food and everything else, like all these things are just like in order to overturn part of it, you have to overturn all of it. But there's no evidence that any of it should be overturned.

Does that make sense? But then not only that, I mean, just read through Isaiah 11, 9. And this is just something that you have to think through. So Isaiah 11, 9 says, they shall not hurt or destroy and all my holy mountain for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the wallet as the waters cover the sea.

So if you think about that, the earth and God's plan for the world is that the earth be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the water covers the sea. So what you need, if you want to understand, well, what is God's definition of full?

It seems like God's definition of, you know, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth full of people in order for the whole earth to be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. That means that we have a long way to go.

It probably looks a lot more like Coruscant from Star Wars.

Sure, sure. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and so and like the thing is that God will have his purpose accomplished. And so we need to keep on going, you know, until we get this place, you know, as full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea, meaning comprehensively full.

So there's no like there's no we're not there yet. I mean, you can fit the entire population of the world in Texas with every single human being having, you know, a thousand square foot to themself. So now that doesn't say, you know, how you're going to make food and everything else.

But but like the point, though, is to say that we have a long way to go before the earth is full, filled with the knowledge of the Lord from the water as the waters cover the sea. There's a long way to go.

So so why is why is God giving this command to to Adam and Eve, to Noah and to all of us? Why why is he giving us this command to have children? Why is it why is it such an important aspect of of our purpose for being here?

Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, I can try to answer that question and give you one more answer to the last one, too. But, you know, you're asking the question, well, how do we know that this command is still relevant and why did he give it to us?

Well, in a part of part of how you're going to answer those kind of questions is to look at the scripture itself. But then you do have to look at our design, like God's fundamental design for humanity.

And one of the things you can find is he made us to reproduce. So we have bodies that are telling us that he made us to reproduce. So we have we have bodies that are intentionally designed to do that.

And not only that, he's put in us desires for companionship. He's put in us desires to actually have kids. I mean, women have a lot stronger desire to have kids than men do. Typically, men just like the process, you know, as far as that as far as that's concerned.

But these are intrinsic to, you know, our very design, you know, so like it's almost like, you know, trying to ask the question, you know, how do you know these things still apply? It's almost as absurd as asking the question, you know, how do you know that God still wants you to use your eyes?

You know, I mean, it's just like, what a dumb question, right? Like, it's like, I mean, what do you do? You just pluck out your eyes? You know, how do I know that God still wants me to see? You know, it's just like, well, no, you have they're obviously made for a reason, man, you know, and your bodies are obviously made for a reason.

So like, that's what they're there, you know, so so like, it's more than just like, like, there's an argument based on design, not just an argument based on Scripture at that point that God's obviously designed you to do certain things and you have a body screaming at you to do it.

So you might want to just, you know, do what you're designed to do. You know, what a waste it is. Like, you can imagine it's just a waste in every area of life to have something designed for a purpose and then just totally, you know, not use it for the purpose that it's made.

So no, but why?

Before you before you answer the question that I actually initially asked, I want to put I want to push back a little bit on what you're saying, because I think there are going to be a lot of people who are listening who are going to have this, this thought immediately come into their mind.

And so at the risk of, you know, getting ahead of ourselves a little bit in the conversation, I want to I want to provide this pushback. Part of what you're saying is, you know, beyond just the fact that we don't have any Scripture that tells us, hey, good job filling the earth and subduing it, you know, being fruitful and multiplying.

You're good on that one. But besides the fact that there's no verse that actually says that or does anything even close to saying anything like that. Basically, what you're saying is, hey, look, our design hasn't changed in any way.

We still have all of the same desires that Adam and Eve would have had when it came to this. We have the same anatomical structure that they would have had when it comes to reproduction. Same cycles, everything.

It's the same. It hasn't changed. So knowing that that's a that's a that's a way we can look at creation itself. And and and, you know, basically that along with knowing what the scriptures actually say, we can with confidence tell one another, hey, no, this is still a command that we need to obey.

The the pushback that I think some people are going to bring up is when it comes to things like contraceptives. And I know this is probably getting a little bit ahead of ourselves in the conversation.

But but I think there will there will probably be a group of people who would say, hey, look, no science. You know, science is a gift from God. God has given us many blessings through science. And one of those blessings is contraceptive.

So he wouldn't have allowed us to to have these things if he didn't think we needed to slow it all down now. So, yes, we saw the design. We saw the desires. But then he's given us this new tool to still fulfill all those things, just like Paul says we need to do.

But then he's given us a tool to prevent us from overpopulating, you know, or something like that in birth control, basically. So so what it you know, what is your response to that kind of critique of your argument?

Sure. I mean, science gives us plenty of things that that you can't argue from what is to what ought to be essentially. So science has given us sex robots. So so what you know, like, does that mean that God doesn't want us to get married to women anymore?

Right. I mean, you have to think, you know, you can't just say, hey, you know, science has come up with some new thing, you know. So therefore, like science, like whatever you can't science doesn't have like power to define morality, you know, or the ingenuity of man doesn't have the power to overturn morality as far as that goes.

And so you have to think through, you know, what God's actual purpose and God's actual attention for humanity is. And the reality is that we can use science in such a way to help us to fulfill the purposes that God has for us.

Or we can use science in such a way to like basically overturn God's plans and purposes for humanity. I mean, the Bible says that the sons of this age are, you know, they marry and are given into marriage.

And so you have to ask, you know, where are we at in God's timeline? And it seems to me that God's timeline is that the sons of this age marry and are given a marriage. And like God's design for man is going to be fulfilled throughout this age.

And we don't need to worry about it. We just need to busy ourselves with the joyful task of doing the things that he's called us to do. And science isn't a trump, you know, I mean, you know, the new inventions aren't a trump.

You know, science has given us a virtual church, but that doesn't mean that that's actually a church. So, you know, science, you can't just use like any kind of new technology to overturn clear commands and purposes and God's design for humanity in that way.

I mean, obviously, you know, humanity and rebellion against God can invent remarkable technologies that will stand in opposition to God's plan. But you look to the Bible to tell us what God's plans are, not whatever new inventions we come up with.

OK, well, going back back to the original question I posed, why is it that God is that God commands us to have kids? Why is it such an important part of our purpose for being here?

Sure. Yeah. So I mentioned a few of those things already. But then, you know, I think we're here in order to we bear the image of God. So man is created in God's image and we bear the image of God. And there's certain activity.

A lot of the activities we engage in are going to be activities in which we are representing God's character in a certain way. So God obviously created us. He created man, his own image, God created everything out of nothing.

You know, we can mirror certain attributes of his character, his creative nature and bringing forth children into the world. So obviously we're not doing it on our own. Apart from his grace, he knits children together in his mother's womb.

But I mean, his design for us is to create new people and to be like him in that kind of way. You know, part of the funny thing about asking a question like this, you know, why would God do this? All you have to do is ask yourself, do you like being alive?

I am partial to it.

Are you glad your parents had you? So like in a certain sense, I mean, it's a privilege to be able to bring new life into the world. And it's a moral responsibility that we have to bring new life into the world.

And, you know, I'm certainly glad that I had the opportunity to be alive. And that certainly is a blessing to me. And so God's plan is to bless humanity. And I mean, you know, it just hurts your brain trying to think about answering that kind of question, you know, what it would be like to not exist.

But then all the blessings that God has given me throughout the entirety of my life, you have to think about it this way. All the blessings that I've ever experienced throughout the entirety of my life were dependent upon the action of my parents to bring me into this world.

Right. And so God has a plan to bless humanity. And that plan is going to be fulfilled through our obedience to what he says. And so the more obedient we actually are, the more people there will be to experience the blessings that God has for us to experience.

And the chief of which is to actually know God. Right. So the Bible says the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord like the waters cover the sea. And I mean, like God wants like the greatest good of humanity is that we know God and we're not going to know him unless we exist.

Okay. And so there's that. But there's a lot there's a lot to more you can say to that. But certainly. Yeah. Yeah.

And remind me, I can't remember if you brought this up or not, but I know I know I mentioned it at some point. But really, I mean, God gave Adam and Eve, Noah, these commands, fill the earth, be fruitful, multiply.