Are Couples Who Refuse to Have Kids Basically Selfish Jerks?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question,

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Are couples who refuse to have kids basically selfish jerks? So this is an episode that I've actually been looking forward to doing myself because I am actually the person who was a bit of a selfish jerk as it came to this topic.

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And now, thankfully, through the mercy of the Lord, after having it brought to my attention,

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I've gotten to have a kid myself and really come to realize just how great of a gift it is to have kids.

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And so I'm really excited to talk about this subject. with you, Tim, and kind of pick your brain as it comes to some of the questions that I have in mind that I've been thinking through.

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And I think I have a special ability to have a certain type of perspective having been the selfish person myself.

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So hopefully I can ask you some pretty good questions that you can clarify.

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Because I think what I have in mind is probably what a lot of people are thinking in general.

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Which is, it's really kind of interesting. I think the general consensus right now in our society, if you go on social media, if you watch

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TV, if you just kind of observe people and how they live their lives,

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I think the general kind of consensus that you're going to get is that most people kind of think of children as a bit of a burden.

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And kind of like a curse, really. If you want to put it that way.

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It seems like kids are something that really you just want to avoid at all costs, almost.

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Like you go to the restaurant and you see the married couple and their baby is crying and being really loud.

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And I think most people's response immediately is to think, wow, this is really inconveniencing my dinner.

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The children that are screaming and crying for whatever reason. So I think in general most people kind of most unbelievers view children as a bit of a curse.

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But then the interesting thing as I've been thinking about this subject, as I've been observing people and what they think about children one of the interesting things is

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I've actually kind of come to the conclusion myself, at least anecdotally that really it seems like most

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Christians kind of have the same response too. Has that been your experience as well?

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Certainly, yeah. We're living in a society right now that basically despises children and despises the idea of having them.

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I can tell you stories about what you're talking about. My wife just went to the grocery store and I think just a few days ago she had an experience where there was a man who was essentially staring at her with all five of our kids at the grocery store and they weren't being crazy or anything else but he was just looking at her and basically came up to her at some point and said,

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I pity you I pity you having to deal with all these kids and she just looked at him like, why?

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You know? But he quickly changed his tone after she told him essentially that she doesn't view her kids as a curse and she's very thankful for him and everything else.

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She should have pressed him. No, tell me why. Tell me why. No, she did. She pressed him.

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Like, why would I need to be pitied? I love my kids. That kind of thing.

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But you're certainly living in a society right now that is hostile to the idea of kids.

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You're living in a world that really is dead set on killing as many of them as you can and we're persuaded, we're living in a delusion where we're persuaded that the world is overpopulated and the only hope for humanity is basically to cull the herd, so to speak.

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Those are things that are happening at a societal level. If you just go to any kind of college or major university and you're going to find that there is a hostility towards children that is satanic.

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It really is satanic. Satan has a vested interest in trying to destroy us. He was a murderer from the beginning and he wants us to declare war on the idea of children and there's been plenty of societies that essentially have done that and are in deep trouble because they're not replacing their population as far as those things are concerned, but then the church is worldly and is doing the same kind of thing and so you're living in a culture right now that's hostile to kids, period.

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And then the church typically follows this suit, for sure.

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One of the things I wanted to ask you starting off is why exactly is that?

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It seems like you said just a second ago, kids are basically a very important building block when it comes to creating any sort of society in general.

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So why is it that so many people, including Christians, are so seemingly repelled at the thought of having kids?

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Yeah, I mean there's no one answer to that kind of question, obviously, but I do think you have to realize that we are living in a world that is held captive by the evil one and Satan is a murderer.

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He is a murderer and he is designed to basically destroy us at almost every single level and that is his character.

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And so everything that he promises is ultimately attempting to undermine God's basic plan for humanity and he's like one of those serial killer kind of friends who is seeking you harm.

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When you think about his plans, he promises good, he promises pleasure, he promises life, but then there's a dagger underneath that plan that he intends to put in your back.

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There is a hostility that he has towards the idea of children, period, because they stand so central to God's actual plans for the world.

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And there's no greater sign of life than children and he's devoted to death.

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So there's that. I mean there's a spiritual battle that's going on along those lines, but then there's the logic of the world is essentially that we're living in order to be happy and if you're thinking about happiness as involving just getting everything you want and having no one who stands in the way of your dreams and your goal and your plans and your vision and everything else, then kids fundamentally are going to be individuals who they're either going to teach you that it's more blessed to give than receive, as the

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Bible says, or they're going to be objects that stand in the way of your own personal fulfillment and your own personal happiness.

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It takes thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to raise a child from start to finish and there's nothing really more helpless than a child.

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As a child comes into the world, they come into the world needy and they need your time, they need your money, they need your resources.

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They're going to stand in the way of the teaching of feminism at that point, which basically tells women that they're going to find their ultimate fulfillment in being just like men and taking on the jobs of men.

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So if you want to kill all of your career aspirations, then you have a kid and that's going to stand in the way of your goals and your plans and the things you want to do.

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I mean, at a practical level, you can't really help, but if you have kids you can't do the things that you used to do.

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You don't have the freedom of your time that you used to have. You don't have freedom of money. When I was a single person, if I wanted to go to a restaurant,

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I'd go to a restaurant. If I want to go see some family in a different city, I'd just get in my car and grab a few clothes and go drive and do that kind of thing.

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I mean, I remember when I was in early college, there were times where I was a little bit lonely and I wanted to go visit my aunt or something like that.

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And I just packed up and drove an hour away and just hung out with them for a little bit and there's nothing to stop me from doing that kind of thing.

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But then when you have kids, it's a big production and there's a lot to it and we're selfish.

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So, basically, if you're looking at everything through the lens of what does it do for me kind of thing and does it stand in the way of my me time and my happiness and kids can be burdens in that kind of way.

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Right. One thing I always tell people is whenever people are meeting my daughter for the first time, one of the things that I always tell them that I've come to realize is just like marriage, when you first get married, you immediately realize a lot of the ways in which you're a very selfish person in general.

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And that's just because all of a sudden you're having to change your life in significant ways and you've got to start thinking about this other person in a very significant way.

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So, now your time is not your own anymore. You know, even things like your body isn't your own anymore in marriage and so in a lot of ways it reveals a lot of selfishness that has just never been challenged before in your life.

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But then even more so, children, you know, they take that to a whole new level basically because they're affecting pretty much everything about your life.

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Once you have a kid, it fundamentally changes the way that you live your life and I'm sure the more you add on to that, the more exaggerated that change becomes where even like when you eat and when you sleep, those are no longer things that you get to decide when you're going to do all the time.

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It's an awesome, not in the trite sense of that word, awesome like a cheeseburger.

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Awesome. It truly is an awesome responsibility that an individual takes on like when you have a kid, meaning there's no take backs at that point.

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You're literally determining to give your life for this person and take full responsibility of it and there's no like, you know,

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I tried that out like a pet or something like that. There's no 14 day trial. I tried it and you know, people ridiculously treat pets as if it's the same level but I mean it's just like, you know, if you don't like the pet, you can, you know.

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You can find someone to take your pet. You can hand them off, you know, but you can't really do that with a kid.

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So I mean, without being thrown in jail or something like that but I mean it is a big responsibility and I think a lot of people are not as mature as generations past were so we're much less mature than our former generations and so there's this sense in which individuals, they want to get married because they want to have sex but then they don't want all the responsibilities that come with that in general.

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They're not really, you know, there's something about like having a kid that makes you feel like an adult in a way that maybe even getting married doesn't.

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Yeah. It definitely sanctifies you in a very in a very strong sense,

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I guess. It pushes you. So I guess in terms of thinking about you know, this responsibility to have children

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I think one of, whenever you think about having children or any kind of command that God might have given for having children, probably one of the first places that most people are going to instantly think of if they've really read their

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Bible at all or have even just lived in the Bible belt or something where they've heard all the stories or whatever.

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One of the first places you're going to go is probably Genesis in the first few chapters when

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God gives the command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, right?

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And so whatever you think about what that means now the thing that you can't argue is that this is a command that was given to Adam and Eve.

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So I guess my first question for you in relation to that is why exactly did

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God tell Adam and Eve to do this? I mean, it's pretty much one of the first things He tells them to do is to be fruitful and multiply.

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So why did He give them this command and so quickly to...

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Sure, well, I mean, He didn't just give it to Adam and Eve. So that's part of the point is that He gave that command to Adam and Eve to basically tell them who they are, where they're coming from, where they're going, what

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His plan is for the world. And so He gave it to them, but then

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He also gave it to Noah. So there's a repetition of it with Noah after the flood. And part of the reason why it's repeated there is just to emphasize that this indeed is a corporate command given to the entire human race and reflects

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God's intention for humanity at a pretty fundamental level. So I think if you want to try to understand what's actually happening in the

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Bible, you can think in terms of two corporate commands that basically govern the basic answer to the question, why are we here?

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What is God's plan for us? What is God's purpose for us? And those two corporate commands are this creation mandate that's found in Genesis, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it.

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I call that essentially the Great Commission of the Old Covenant. So basically if you want to think about God's plans for humanity, first is fill the world up full of people.

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That's essentially what you have there. And then the New Covenant, God's the other corporate command is to make disciples of all nations.

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And so you think in terms of these two corporate commands, one, fill the world up full of people, and then two, fill the world up full of disciples essentially if you want to think about it in a simplistic way.

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But I mean, the point though is just to say that God, God's design for the world is to fill the world full of the knowledge of the

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Lord as the waters cover the sea. So as you think about that kind of plan,

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God wants the entire earth to be filled with the knowledge of Him. And John will tell us that the time is coming and now is where God is seeking worshippers to worship

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Him. And so God's plan is to basically fill the world up full of worshippers.

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And that's His intention for humanity. That's why you're here, because someone was obedient to this plan that God had for humanity.

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And this reflects our design that God has designed us. And I mean, we have bodily cycles which essentially are screaming at us every, you know, if you're a guy, every day, multiple times a day.

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You have a cycle that is telling you that God's designed you to be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth.

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And you know, if you're a woman, you have a monthly cycle that's essentially doing something very similar. That's telling you that God has designed you to be creative, to reflect certain attributes of His character.

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God's a creator God. And He's designed us to create, not, you know, out of nothing, ex nihilo. But He's designed us to be creative just like He is and to bring new life into the world and to reflect

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His character and to fulfill His purposes. And so, you know, God's plan is to fill the world up full of people and fill the world up full of disciples and, you know, obviously

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He's doing that through the church. But then that's His design for humanity and that's why the world hates it so much.

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It's because it reflects these basic fundamental worldview questions why we're here.

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And this is inescapably God's plan and we can't, as much as we want to rebel against it and reject it,

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I mean, it's obvious that God has made us to do this. And that's why, you know, pretty much everyone wants to be in a, you know, relationship, you know, of some sort.

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They may not want to be married, but everyone, you know, they feel deep down to their soul that, like, they don't like this idea of just being so alone, you know, by themselves.

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They know intuitively that God's designed them to couple with another human being in order to advance

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His purposes in the world. And, I mean, you know, I think it's just inescapable.

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It's just God's plan. It's God's design for the world. It's just obvious. So, that's part of what

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I'd say to that. Well, one of the other things I was going to ask you was, you know, does that, do these commands still stand today?

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I know I've heard a lot of people and I think at one point I probably, I never vocalized this, but I probably did think it if I had ever, you know, thought to really put all my beliefs on this down on paper or something.

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One thing that I've heard a lot of people say is, essentially, you know, yeah, alright, so, you know,

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God gave that the command to be fruitful and multiply. He gave that to Adam and Eve because the world was empty.

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They were the only two people. You know, if you believe that God actually made Adam and Eve and did everything that He said in Genesis, literally, then there's only two people and someone's got to fill up the world and you know, the dating options are limited if you're

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Adam or if you're Eve. But the same deal for Noah.

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The world is empty, essentially. You know, now there's eight people,

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I think, instead of two, but it's the same idea. Everyone was just killed in the flood.

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Someone's going to have to fill up the world again. But we live in a different day and age now.

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The world isn't empty. The world is more populated than it's ever been.

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And so, I've heard a lot of people basically say, hey, look, those were commands given to them.

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They don't really apply to us anymore because, basically, I guess they've been fulfilled.

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I guess the way that they would probably put it is, hey, this command's been fulfilled.

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The world's full. We don't really need to hold ourself to this command anymore.

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So, my question for you is, what is your response to that objection?

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Because you've already told us, hey, it still stands. So, explain why it still stands.

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Why we can't just say, hey, why we can't say, it's a different day, it's a different age.

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Don't worry about that command anymore. Sure. I mean, the only way that that can make any kind of sense is if, essentially, you go full

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Marcionite and just say, hey, that's the Old Testament or something along those lines. Or you can go full

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Andy Stanley. When you're done, hitch it. Hitch ourselves the Old Testament because it's an embarrassment to poor old

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Andy. But, no, I mean, you can't go that route.

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I mean, the Bible says what's written in former times was written for our instruction that the man of God may be competent and equipped in every good work.

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What's written in former times is the Old Covenant. We have the Old Testament that's written to us that tells us

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God's basic commands for us. I mean, this is pre -Mosaic law. So, I mean, this is like, these are creational features that are given to us to basically tell us why we're here.

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Genesis itself is a book of origins. It's designed to answer these basic questions.

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And so, you know, part of it is just individuals who are making those kind of, that kind of argument, they're essentially, they don't know what to do with the

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Old Testament. And they don't know how to understand and apply what's actually written in the Old Testament.

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So, part of it's that. And so, you know, the only way that you're going to come to the kind of conclusion you're saying is essentially to adopt some kind of red -letter form of Christianity where you just ignore the

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Bible and that kind of thing. But, I mean, you just look through Genesis, and one of the things you're going to find is that you're going to find all the basic features of life that God has designed for us for every single age.

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So, in the book of Genesis, you're going to learn that murder is wrong. Well, why is, you know, why would that change over time, right?

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So, these are creational features. You know, God's given us dominion over the animals. Well, you know, have we advanced far beyond that now to where now the animals should have dominion over us?

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You know, so in that same blessing, He blessed them be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion over the, you know, the animals, and then you've been given plants for food and everything else.

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Like, all these things are just, like, in order to overturn part of it, you have to overturn all of it, but there's no evidence that any of it should be overturned.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. But then, not only that, I mean, just read through Isaiah 11 9, and this is just something that you have to think through.

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So, Isaiah 11 9 says, "...they shall not hurt or destroy, and all my holy mountain for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the

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Lord as the waters cover the sea." So, if you think about that, the earth, and God's plan for the world is that the earth be filled with the knowledge of the

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Lord as the water covers the sea. So, what you need, if you want to understand, well, what is

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God's definition of full? It seems like God's definition of, you know, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth full of people.

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In order for the whole earth to be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea, that means that we have a long way to go.

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It probably looks a lot more like, um, Coruscant from Star Wars. Yeah, sure, sure.

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Absolutely, you know. And, like, the thing is that God will have His purpose accomplished, and so we need to keep on going, you know, until we get this place, you know, as full of the knowledge of the

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Lord as the waters cover the sea, meaning comprehensively full. So, there's no, like, um, there's no, um, we're not there yet.

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I mean, you know, you can fit the entire population of the world in Texas with every single human being having, you know, a thousand square foot to themselves.

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So, now that doesn't say, you know, how you're going to make food and everything else. But, like, the point, though, is to say that we have a long way to go before the earth is filled with the knowledge of the

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Lord from the water as, you know, the waters cover the sea. There's a long way to go. Right. So, why is

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God giving this command to Adam and Eve, to Noah, and to all of us?

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Why is He giving us this command to have children? Why is it such an important aspect of our purpose for being here?

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Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I can try to answer that question and give you one more answer to the last one, too.

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Okay. You know, you're asking the question, well, how do we know that this command is still relevant, and why did

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He give it to us? Well, you know, part of how you're going to answer those kind of questions is to look at the

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Scripture itself. But then you do have to look at our design, like God's fundamental design for humanity.

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And one of the things you're going to find is He made us to reproduce. So, we have bodies that are telling us that He made us to reproduce.

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So, we have bodies that are intentionally designed to do that. And not only that,

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He's put in us desires for companionship. He's put in us desires to actually have kids.

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I mean, women have a lot stronger desire to have kids than men do, typically. Men just like the process, you know.

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As far as that's concerned. But these are intrinsic to our very design.

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So, it's almost like trying to ask the question, how do you know these things still apply?

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It's almost as absurd as asking the question, how do you know that God still wants you to use your eyes?

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You know? I mean, it's just like, what a dumb question, right? I mean, what do you do? You just pluck out your eyes?

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How do I know that God still wants me to see? You know? It's just like, well, no. They're obviously made for a reason, man.

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And your bodies are obviously made for a reason. So, that's what they're there. It's more than just, like, there's an argument based on design, not just an argument based on Scripture at that point.

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That God's obviously designed you to do certain things, and you have a body screaming at you to do it. So, you might want to just, you know, do what you're designed to do.

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You know? What a waste it is. You can imagine, it's just a waste in every area of life to have something designed for a purpose, and then just totally, you know, not use it for the purpose that it's made.

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So, no. The point you're asking, though, is... Hey, before you answer the question that I actually initially asked,

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I want to push back a little bit on what you're saying. Because I think there are going to be a lot of people who are listening who are going to have this thought immediately come into their mind.

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And so, at the risk of, you know, getting ahead of ourselves a little bit in the conversation, I want to provide this pushback.

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Part of what you're saying is, you know, beyond just the fact that we don't have any scripture that tells us, hey, good job filling the earth and subduing it, you know, being fruitful and multiplying.

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You're good on that one. But besides the fact that there's no verse that actually says that or does anything even close to saying anything like that.

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Basically, what you're saying is, hey, look, our design hasn't changed in any way. We still have all of the same desires that Adam and Eve would have had when it came to this.

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We have the same anatomical structure that they would have had when it comes to reproduction.

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Same cycles, everything, it's the same. It hasn't changed. So, knowing that, that's a way we can look at creation itself and you know, basically, that along with knowing what the scriptures actually say, we can with confidence tell one another, hey, no, this is still a command that we need to obey.

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The pushback that I think some people are going to bring up is when it comes to things like contraceptives and I know this is probably getting a little bit ahead of ourselves in the conversation, but I think there would probably be a group of people who would say, hey, look, no, science, you know, science is a gift from God.

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God has given us many blessings through science and one of those blessings is contraceptive.

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So, He wouldn't have allowed us to have these things if He didn't think we needed to slow it all down now.

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So, yes, we still have the design, we still have the desires, but then He's given us this new tool to still fulfill all those things just like Paul says we need to do, but then

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He's given us a tool to prevent us from overpopulating, you know, or something like that, in birth control, basically.

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So, what is your response to that kind of critique of your argument?

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Sure, I mean, science gives us plenty of things that that you can't argue from what is to what ought to be essentially.

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So, science has given us sex robots. So, like, so what?

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You know, like, does that mean that God doesn't want us to get married to women anymore? Right?

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I mean, you have to think, you know, you can't just say, hey, you know, science has come up with some new thing, you know.

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So, therefore, like, science, like, whatever, you can't like, science doesn't have like, power to define morality, you know, or the ingenuity of man doesn't have the power to overturn morality, as far as that goes.

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And so, you have to, like, think through what God's actual purpose and God's actual intention for humanity is.

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And the reality is that we can use science in such a way to help us to fulfill the purposes that God has for us, or we can use science in such a way to, like, basically overturn

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God's plans and purposes for humanity. I mean, the Bible says that the sons of this age, you know, they marry and are given into marriage.

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And so, you have to ask, you know, where are we at in God's timeline? And it seems to me that God's timeline is that the sons of this age marry and are given into marriage.

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And, like, God's design for man is going to be fulfilled throughout this age, and we don't need to worry about it.

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We just need to busy ourselves with the joyful task of doing the things that He's called us to do.

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And science isn't a trump. The new inventions aren't a trump. Science has given us a virtual church, but that doesn't mean that that's actually a church.

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Right. So, science, you can't just use any kind of new technology to overturn clear commands and purposes and God's design for humanity in that way.

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I mean, obviously, humanity and rebellion against God can invent remarkable technologies that will stand in opposition to God's plan, but you look to the

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Bible to tell us what God's plans are, not whatever new inventions we come up with. Okay. Well, going back to the original question

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I posed, why is it that God is, that God commands us to have kids?

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Why is it such an important part of our purpose for being here?

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Sure, yeah. So, I mentioned a few of those things already, but then I would, you know, I think we're here in order to, we bear the image of God.

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So, man is created in God's image, and we bear the image of God, and there's certain activities, a lot of the activities we engage in are going to be activities in which we are representing

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God's character in a certain way. So, God obviously created us. He created man, his own image.

33:48

God created everything out of nothing. You know, we can mirror certain attributes of his character, his creative nature in bringing forth children into the world.

33:57

So, obviously, we're not doing it on our own, apart from His grace. He knits children together in His mother's womb.

34:04

But, I mean, His design for us is to create new people and to be like Him in that kind of way.

34:11

You know, part of the funny thing about asking a question like this, you know, why would God do this? All you have to do is ask yourself, do you like being alive?

34:19

You know, so... I am partial to it. Are you glad your parents had you?

34:26

You know, so like, in a certain sense, I mean, like, it's a privilege to be able to bring new life into the world, and it's a moral responsibility that we have to bring new life into the world.

34:38

And, you know, I'm certainly glad that I had the opportunity to be alive, and that certainly is a blessing to me.

34:46

And so, God's plan is to bless humanity. And, I mean, you know, I can't, like, it just hurts your brain trying to think about, like, that kind of, answering that kind of question, you know, what it would be like to not exist.

34:59

You know, so... But then all the blessings that God has given me throughout the entirety of my life, you have to think about it this way, all the blessings that I've ever experienced throughout the entirety of my life were dependent upon the action of my parents to bring me into this world.

35:18

Right? And so, God has a plan to bless humanity, and that plan is going to be fulfilled through our obedience to what

35:25

He says. And so, the more obedient we actually are, the more people there will be to experience the blessings that God has for us to experience.

35:37

And the chief of which is to actually know God. Right? So, the Bible says, the earth will be full of the knowledge of the

35:45

Lord, like the waters cover the sea. And, I mean, God wants, like, the greatest good of humanity is that we know

35:52

God, and we're not going to know Him unless we exist. Okay? And so, there's that.

35:59

But there's a lot, there's a lot to, more you can say to that, but certainly. Yeah, yeah.

36:04

And, remind me, I can't remember if you brought this up or not, but I know I mentioned it at some point, but really,

36:12

I mean, God gave Adam and Eve, Noah, these commands, fill the earth, be fruitful, multiply, and part of what

36:22

He's doing is He's saying, hey, you need to build up societies, basically, and the only way you build up societies is by having more people, you know.

36:34

Yeah, but one of the things I would just, maybe to help people is, as you think about those commands to Adam and Noah, they're not just commands to Adam and Noah, that's the point.

36:43

Because, like, if you think about the nature of the commands themselves, like, the command is be fruitful and multiply to the only two human beings that exist at a time,

36:53

Adam and Eve. Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Like, one of the things you instantaneously realize is that those two people can't fulfill that command, okay?

37:06

Like, they can't. Because it's not meant, it's not meant for just them.

37:14

They can't fill the world up full of people and subdue the earth in the same way that God gave the Great Commission to the disciples that were alive at the time, and not all of them even, but everyone understands and knows that that command, you know, bring the gospel to all the world.

37:32

Make disciples of all nations, right? Baptizing them, teaching them to do all that Jesus began to do and teach.

37:38

This is a command that's beyond that group of individual. And so, like, you just imagine it in this way.

37:45

Like, if you imagine, you know, and God's given plenty of corporate commands to certain bodies, like build a tabernacle and everything else.

37:52

But, I mean, just imagine that we all had our little communion cups, or whatever, at our church.

37:59

And I, as a pastor there, gave a corporate command to everyone, right? Fill this up full of water, this swimming pool up full of water with your communion cups, or whatever.

38:09

Like, everyone would know that, like, this is a command that's beyond me. But then if everyone were to do it, like, and it's beyond this moment, right?

38:18

It's going to take some time. You know, it's a command that extends beyond this, but, like, you keep on doing your, you know, filling your drop in there, and another drop in there.

38:26

It's going to take some time. But in the same way, the world's a big place. Like, it's a huge place. And this wasn't just a command given to Adam and Eve.

38:34

It's a command given to the human race. And it reflects, and everything else that's in there, you know, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth should do it, have dominion over the animals.

38:43

Like, that's part of God's design for humans. That applies to all of them, you know?

38:50

Yeah, imagine if your wife had gone to the store, and instead of having five kids with her, she had one billion children.

38:59

I wonder what the guy's reaction would have been. Poor woman, you know? Okay. So, why does

39:10

God command us to have kids? It's to build up society. It's to make us like Him. Probably to sanctify us as well, you know, revealing all of our selfishness, our sinfulness.

39:21

So, this is a command that, you know, it was given to Adam, it was given to Noah, but then we can't treat it like it, you know, we can't unhitch ourselves from the

39:29

Old Testament in this way. We can unhitch ourselves from A. A. Stanley. That's what we can do. Yeah, unhitch ourselves. If you're listening to A.

39:35

A. Stanley, don't do that anymore. Go read the Old Testament, and go read the Old Testament.

39:42

But, so, in the beginning of the podcast, one of the things

39:47

I brought up is, you know, most people, they kind of view children as a curse more than a blessing, but then we know

39:54

God promises children are actually blessings. So, it's pretty, I mean, it's pretty kind of mind -blowing if you think about it.

40:02

God gives us a command to be fruitful and to multiply. So, this is a command that we need to follow if we want to honor the

40:13

Lord. But then, the result of following the command is we get gifts directly, right?

40:23

Like, the natural sort of outcome of following the command means that you get gifts in children.

40:34

So, it's kind of like a, I mean, it's like a really merciful thing, if you think about it.

40:39

He could have made it really hard, and it certainly is, but then he could have made it in a way where, like, children aren't gifts.

40:49

But he didn't. He made them gifts for us. So, it's kind of, it should be a point that causes us to say, hey, you know, like, praise

41:00

God for doing this and for blessing us in this way.

41:07

But it doesn't seem like most people really recognize that children are gifts.

41:12

It seems like they more think of children as a curse. So, why don't you just, you know, tell us some of the ways in which children are actually a blessing?

41:25

Because we know God does say they are a blessing. So, in what ways are they?

41:31

It's funny. I mean, like, God blessed them. Like, the text says God blessed them and said, be fruitful and multiply.

41:37

So, you don't even have to get beyond that verse to realize that children are meant to be a blessing. Because that, like, the command itself is a blessing.

41:45

It's a blessing that's given. You know, but then you have verses like Psalm, you know, 127 and 3 through 5, the classic passage on that kind of topic.

41:54

Behold, children are heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb, a reward.

41:59

Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them.

42:06

He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate. So, there's a wide variety of reasons why children can be a blessing and are a blessing in the

42:15

Bible. I mean, part of it is just as simple as it's not good for man to be alone. So, God's going to make a helper fit for him.

42:23

We're living in such a selfish society right now that we really have no place for other centeredness at all.

42:32

But there really isn't a lot of joy to be found in just self -centered isolation.

42:39

You know, as much as we're hell -bent on pursuing it with everything that we have, that really isn't the path to, you know, happiness.

42:45

And that isn't really the path to joy and laughter. I mean, you need community in order to experience those kind of things.

42:53

I mean, you might be able to, you know, pursue entertainment and raw by yourself. But the good things in life are obviously going to be filled with community and with interactions with other people and laughter.

43:08

I mean, you know, I feel the kind of person who's just, you know, just laughing by yourself all the time.

43:14

I mean, I mean, most people would probably look at you as if you're a little bit weird.

43:21

But I mean, you know, there's like, you can just imagine yourself like when you find something funny or you think about something funny, don't you have some kind of impulse or desire to share it with someone else or text someone else or let them know.

43:33

I mean, God's made us to be that way. He's made us to live in community. I mean, I think obviously at a very fundamental level, the good things in life, you know, holidays, happiness, joy, they're going to be found through family and life and community and all these kind of things.

43:54

And so there's reasons like that. I mean, you know, in that passage it says, Behold, children are a heritage from the

44:01

Lord, the fruit of the womb, a reward like arrows in the hands of a warrior or the children of one's youth.

44:08

And when you think about like that kind of metaphor, you know, if you're living in a society where there are enemies, you know, all around you, you have children, children are like arrows in the hands of a warrior.

44:19

Like you think about that in the literal sense of those words like in order to, you know, keep your tribe strong, you know, you're going to have to have families that are producing kids and you're going to have to outbreed your enemies as far as that goes.

44:37

Outbreed your enemies. That's right. I mean, that's part of the reason why, you know, as a society as birth rates in societies plunge, you're not even replacing, you know, the rate of kids that you have and societies inevitably are going to collapse in one way or the other.

44:54

They're going to collapse because you don't have like the manpower needed to, you know, run the utilities and, you know, have the jobs that you have and everything else.

45:03

And so part of it's that, but then part of it is just that you're going to be easily conquered. And so like there's a sense in which children are a blessing and that they're like arrows in the hands of a warrior.

45:13

They're essential to keeping a society alive. But not only that, I mean, I think we think about children in such an individualistic way now, and we are very individualistic in the

45:24

West so that we don't think in terms of like things like generational wealth and those kind of concepts.

45:31

And so when you think about children, like part of what we should be thinking about if we were smart would be to be raising children who are going to, you know, join us in the task that God has given us to pursue.

45:45

And like you can create a lot of wealth in that way too by thinking about how to teach your kids actual marketable skills that will actually benefit the world and having some sort of connection with your children.

45:59

Like you could build great things with a bunch of hands that could actually help you instead of just having like a bunch of kids that you're producing who are just lazy entertainment addict kind of kids who don't know how to do anything.

46:10

And then you send them off to college and basically you know, just excited to get them out of the house and barely ever see them again at that point.

46:20

I mean like if you raise kids in the way that God wants you to raise them, you might have like greater connection points.

46:26

And so like there are blessings in those kind of ways. Like in terms of just, you know, society, financial blessings.

46:33

There are those kind of blessings that come from having kids. But those are just like crass practical ones.

46:40

But I mean my goodness, like there's blessings in the process of even having a kid. I mean like one of the things that my kids like to do the most of all the things that they can do like and this is what's like a shame like to a society like the kind of society that we live in right now that essentially doesn't see any value in kids at all.

47:00

But like the thing is like, you know, one of the things that my kids love doing the most is sitting with me or their mom and looking through old photos of them or old videos of them on the phone and kind of laughing at the things that they did and that kind of thing.

47:16

But I mean that's like, they would rather do that than watch a movie. Even my older kids.

47:23

And that's like a shame. I mean that's like a profound, it's like why are we drawn that way?

47:31

Why is that the thing that is so interesting for so many people?

47:38

It's because God's made, I mean that's how memories are built. That's how, that's what makes for a good life.

47:44

When you get old do you really want to be by yourself? Alone?

47:50

Unable to do anything? You know, like I at the last church

47:58

I was at there was a guy that I got connected with. He was an older guy who was, recently he got

48:05

Alzheimer's and then he went to be with the Lord. But I used to go over there and he had kids man, like he had kids that could help him do things.

48:13

But I used to you know, he'd pay me a little bit to go over there and help him mow his yard. So I mowed his yard every week or every

48:20

Saturday, that kind of thing. But he was just so thankful to have someone to come and talk to him and help him.

48:27

You know, and I just I was kind of sad because I thought man I wish his kids were willing to do it.

48:33

That kind of thing. But I mean like that's like if you have a family that's not just destroyed and you have a family that's held together family that loves each other

48:42

I mean there are blessings that come from that. They want to be around each other. You don't even have to there are obvious blessings that come from kids in that kind of way that certainly you have a generation of people who maybe miss out on those things.

49:00

But those are the things that I remember growing up, like the good stuff. Yeah, I definitely,

49:08

I resonate with that a lot. I think now that my wife and I have had a kid, you know, one of the things that always

49:18

I think about a lot is just the satisfaction that my wife and I get and just having this little person that is just like us.

49:33

I mean even down to like the biological level like even their DNA and every cell in their body is just like our

49:42

DNA. And so it's like this really it's a really special kind of experience that you get to have and it's one that it makes the memories that you have with this child, it makes them so special.

50:04

I mean, there's so many times my wife and I have gone back and watched, you know, the videos that we've taken along the way so far and we've looked at all the pictures that we've taken and we've just you know, just recalled different events that we got to all experience together and just the sincere amount of joy that comes from even just remembering those things and even just getting to hear my child's voice is a gift to me.

50:40

My wife and I say all the time, we wish that we could just bottle up our baby's voice because it's just so sweet to hear all the time.

50:51

You're never being more like God than when you're caring for someone who's fundamentally helpless, laying down your life for someone who just they can't benefit you like in the same way.

51:04

And so, you know, it used to be that you share those memories through like stories, you know,

51:10

I can think of family reunions where you get together and you hear all the old stories of you know, that seem to, you know, grow over time.

51:19

Get better with every telling. I know those stories well.

51:25

But we're living, you know, in a time right now where we do have like video cameras and, you know, that we're living in a very blessed time where you can actually look at those things and, you know, they bring joy to you.

51:38

And so, there's just so many answers to that kind of question. Right.

51:43

One more thing that I can think of that I wanted to bring up, when we interviewed C .R. Wiley, I thought it was really interesting when he brought up this,

51:54

I guess it was, I don't remember if it was a study that he had read or if it was in maybe like a magazine or an interview that he watched or something, but there is something that he saw that was basically saying normally the people who are wealthier are the people who have more children.

52:16

Which I thought was really interesting. I'd never really thought about that before, but then basically what he was saying is

52:24

Wiley's sort of hypothesis was essentially this idea that hey, the more kids you have, the more pressure you feel as a provider to be able to take care of all of them, so you've got to keep finding ways to make enough money to feed your kids, to clothe them, to give them the things that they need.

52:46

And so, what ends up happening is a lot of times God ends up blessing that by giving them even more than what they need.

52:56

Whether they realize it or not, the individuals, they don't have to necessarily recognize that that's what is happening, but then the fact is that God is actually blessing it seems like God is actually blessing those people, and probably in part because they are at least fulfilling that command in some way.

53:19

Yeah, there's always blessings that come with faithfulness, so part of it is just that pressure you feel to keep on looking and things are tight and you need more but then it's the faithfulness of God you just devote yourself to the things

53:32

He calls you to do and He'll take care of you. Now, consequently, on the other end of the spectrum, what do you think are some of the what do you think are some of the consequences that come from voluntarily refusing to have kids?

53:47

Sure, I mean, yeah if you want to pursue this self -centered life then selfishness is the kind of thing that really it might be fun in the short term, but then it leaves you empty in the long term and ultimately you're not setting yourself up for a life that is going to be filled with very much joy or happiness, and so if you're hostile to God's commands, if you're hostile to things that He actually calls you to do, there are certainly going to be consequences in this life and the next that come from that, and so the kind of person who really just is absolutely hostile to everything the

54:32

Bible says, I mean, there's obviously going to be consequences into eternity for that kind of thing, but the consequences to here and now, you can pursue selfishness

54:41

I mean, you live in a world right now that basically just encourages selfishness at every single level you know, be true to yourself you know, follow your heart you know, be who you you know, be who you are and that kind of stuff, but the problem is that the more we pursue selfishness in that kind of way the emptier we actually feel you know,

55:05

I think it's one of those things where I was one time, once I was watching an interview of some stupid actress who was essentially trying to she had never given birth in her life and she was trying to figure out how to you know, make the appropriate noises in childbearing you know you know, based on an experience she's never had

55:27

I mean, I can't tell you, I just felt pity for her that she was, you know an individual that, you know had lived this life that everyone thinks is supposed to be so wonderful and great and she still hadn't experienced like, the basic joy and happiness and blessings that come from living a life that God commands us to live in those ways so you know, you can pursue selfishness with all you have, it's going to leave you empty you're going to feel worthless and that's why you can have everything the world has to offer but if you pursue the things

56:00

God calls you to pursue you know, there are blessings that come from that, not only do you have His pleasure, but then you also like, it's better, you know

56:09

His plans are better than our plans so just ask anyone who has a, you know a kid who has the right biblical attitude about their kid and they're going to tell you that you know, they wouldn't erase that kid for anything you know, one of the things that I thought bringing up the

56:28

Wiley interview again, that we did one of the things that I thought was really interesting and I agreed wholeheartedly with this

56:37

I've thought about this before this idea that probably in the coming decades churches are really going to have to think through how do we minister to an older generation who is just alone, basically they haven't had children because they decided to they either decided to have children really late in life or they just didn't at all and so now they're all by themselves they have no one to take care of them in their old age, they can't provide for themselves anymore and so C .R.

57:19

Wiley was basically saying hey, you know, churches are going to have to think through this because this is going to be the reality we're going to have a whole generation of elderly people with no one to take care of them essentially which is really kind of scary if you think about it all of these people who think that they're making a really smart decision for themselves they're saving the environment, they're able to pursue all of their passions and pleasures, they're able to pursue the career that they've always wanted or now they're able to travel because they don't have children or whatever it is so they think they're making a really smart decision but then the reality is they're making an awful, awful decision when it comes to the long term like you were saying so it's pretty concerning but then

58:08

I think if churches are being or having any sort of forethought as it comes to surveying the current landscape of our society probably one of the things that we really do need to start thinking about even now and trying to equip ourselves for as local churches is how do we minister to these people because they're going to be there, it's an inevitability at this point

58:33

I think, at least in America I'd say that's true but let me say something a little bit controversial in that I don't know that like we're going to be able to do it meaning like I don't know that we should accept upon ourselves like that responsibility to provide like older people who refuse to have kids the same level of you know joy and family and like I think that there are some things that we're just not going to be able to do no matter how hard we try you know there's a certain sense in which it's just like you reap what you sow you know and I'm not trying to say that in a harsh way

59:16

I'm just trying to say that like there like there are burdens that you can't bear if that makes sense and so I mean

59:27

I think there's going to be elderly people in your congregation that have a lot of needs but I mean like I don't know that the church is going to be just you know they're like I don't know that we're going to be able to take care of every single need that there is to take care of and like there's going to be consequences from those kind of decisions that I don't think the church can shelter them from does that make sense yeah yeah like we can't we're not going to be able to take care of of we're not going to be able to I guess like fully respond to right

01:00:03

I mean like you know like if you have like you know I have five kids I wouldn't expect each one of my five kids to be you know my you know my life buddy who lives with me you know yeah yeah yeah

01:00:19

I mean they're going to have like their own kids they're going to have their own life and they're going to have that kind of thing but then like the more kids you have the more that you can get some kind of companionship from your kids you know rotation and on a schedule and that kind of thing but then like all

01:00:35

I'm trying to say is like if you have no one and you have all these needs you know all these needs and it's just like if you're like yes we're going to be family of God and yes we need to bear one another's burdens but then there are the kinds of burdens that a person can take upon themselves that are beyond you know people and what

01:01:00

I mean is just to say that like there are there are so many blessings that come from family that I don't know that we're going to be able to just fulfill all of those things in that way yeah so I think we need to be strategic but I'm not you know

01:01:22

I don't think that we should pretend that like we can replace that in its entirety yeah fully you know

01:01:29

I don't think so yeah no that's a good that's a good qualification to make

01:01:35

I think certainly yeah we won't be able to we can you know serve in some way and hopefully that can be something that leads many of these people to know

01:01:49

Christ to see the generosity of his children and the love that they have but then yeah obviously you can't

01:01:59

I mean I guess maybe this isn't really like a one to one comparison but then maybe it's at least in a similar vein where you know like if you have the divorced the divorced parents and you have a stepdad come in he can certainly serve you know that role of father but then he's never going to be the biological father right he's never going to have that same connection so so he can sort of mitigate the fact that the father might not be there but then he won't ever actually be you know the one who gave his

01:02:39

DNA to the child so I think what you want to do is you want to think about like you know so like the younger widows in the bible are encouraged to remarry right so if you think about that like the younger widows are encouraged to remarry because like the church shouldn't take on like a responsibility to provide financially provide everything that a woman needs like if you did that like you're gonna run out of money okay yeah yeah but then the thing is like if you encourage younger women to remarry you know you don't enroll like younger women on the widows list as far as those things are concerned like you encourage them to remarry you encourage them to take on like responsibility in order to take care of the things that are needed and a new husband could really help with that kind of thing and so like there are steps to that and so I mean

01:03:30

I think you know partly as a church what we should be doing is warning people like and not just say hey you know we're here for you when you realize how desolate it all is

01:03:39

I think we should be warning like hey you're you're robbing yourself of future blessings and you know and the kind of person though who really is just living that life of self -fulfillment for years and years and years and years like in that kind of way

01:03:53

I mean they don't typically have a lot of connections period because they're not living the kind of other centered life that's going to you know make these meaningful close relationships and pretty you know most people are going to get married and move on and then you're just going to be alone by yourself you know your time has passed you by and so I mean at a certain point yeah

01:04:13

I mean I think you can go out of your way at that point to you know the 50 year old person who never married and came to the end of himself and has decided to you know convert like you can be a family to them that's real that may be better than their biological family but then you know it's not like you're not going to be able to replace everything you know so there will be consequences to those things so like you're not going to be able to do it all you know so like with the with those kind of things like there's there are certain you know

01:04:46

I think the church can be a better family than our biological family at times and you know we like so that's true but like there are certainly consequences of living that self -centered life and some of those show up you know will show up in your older years yeah unless you just remarkably repent and you know start throwing yourself into being other -centered you know you might not like you know

01:05:12

I wouldn't just like a person like you know needs to radically change who they are you know you get what

01:05:20

I'm saying yeah like they would need to radically they can't just be the same self -centered person just say okay well you know what are your programs for old singles or for old you know unmarried you know and you know as a needy consumer who like basically is looking at you to fulfill all this emotional void that is there because of like a life that was worthless it's just like no

01:05:41

I mean you have to actually be other -centered at some point in your life right yeah yeah and learn that it's better to give than receive and you might find blessing there but you're not going to find it just by being this is needy person who just is trying to leech off of the church all these things that you rejected your whole life if that makes sense yeah so talking about you know the people who are basically you know voluntarily refusing to have children they're either delaying it or they're just telling themselves hey

01:06:12

I'm never going to have children for whatever reason you know

01:06:18

I guess I'll go ahead and ask you this title question then so those people that are refusing to have kids are they being you know selfish jerks or maybe an even better you know maybe an even better way to ask it is you know

01:06:36

I was that person at one point in my life who was basically saying you know I'm going to put off having kids

01:06:42

I don't know when we'll do it but you know certainly not in the first few years of marriage so Tim I would like to ask you as me being the person who is leading my wife into that kind of decision was

01:06:58

I basically being a selfish jerk that's essentially what I told you it is it is caused you to have kids pull back the curtain a little bit did you not get the memo before so to clarify for you guys

01:07:19

I was the person who was thinking this way who was refusing to have children and Tim and the other pastor of our church

01:07:28

Marcus they basically both came to me because I was I'm the person at our church who's basically you know training to be an elder one day and so they eventually came to me and we're basically like alright

01:07:43

Harrison we've got to talk about this what's the plan you know when are you going to have kids and then we got into and then you know

01:07:53

I was basically like well we're waiting you know we just want to make sure we're ready you know whatever but then the reality was

01:08:04

I just didn't I don't really think that I thought children were a blessing and so Tim and Marcus they came to me and we're basically like hey quit being a selfish jerk and have some kids so the answer is yes you're being a selfish jerk yeah

01:08:23

I think definitely I mean the answer is that and I mean I think generally one of the things that's happened is that post birth control now there's this normalized expectation that you'll delay having kids like almost indefinitely and I mean really

01:08:39

I mean it's kind of strange I mean you have you know we have such a stunted understanding of what marriage actually is today that I mean you can we don't even know the basics of what we're doing in marriage so part of that's the problem and so we don't even know what marriage is about we don't understand the roles that we're taking on what marriage is actually designed to do

01:09:04

I mean but for most of human history marriage was viewed as a procreative union essentially and like it was not only was it a procreative union but it was a union that like fundamentally the first act of marriage you know the consummation of marriage was an act that was intended to procreate so this is the standard understanding of what marriage has been throughout the entire history of the world prior to birth control is that you go and you get married and the first thing you do is you go in the tent and make a baby that's what you do but then we don't think about it that kind of way at all you know so you don't have like that's not even on the radar for the vast majority of people so you know yes they're being selfish jerks but then they're just bone ignorant about and you were bone ignorant about what you're doing you know like in marriage what you're actually you know intending to do right the way

01:10:11

God's designed marriage to be is that a man is called by God to be a protector and a provider of his wife and he should go into marriage thinking to himself that he has a responsibility to provide for one plus another should you know

01:10:28

God bless his endeavors and so that's been the standard understanding of marriage throughout history and now it's only you know post birth control pill that we even like think that like that it's become normalized to not just get married and have kids and so that's a like massive shift in the way we even understand what we're doing now that most people throughout the history world wouldn't even recognize you know so what happens though is that most people like you're living in a society right now that's hostile to marriage and you're living in a society that's hostile to kids and then so you know and I threw you under the bus but I mean

01:11:09

I did the same kind of thing going into marriage like I had a plan you know I'm in seminary

01:11:15

I want to finish seminary and then we'll talk about having kids I didn't want to postpone it that much but then one of the things that I just felt profoundly unsettled about early on in our marriage is why are we putting this off why are we putting this off it seems like we're doing violence to God's design in a pretty fundamental level and that quickly led to you know an audible at that point but I mean like you know like you're living in a world that's hostile to you know marriage and it's hostile to kids and then often what happens in the church is that you know the guys still want to have sex okay so the guys still and then the girls still want the relationship but then like what happens is the church kind of persuades them hey marriage is a good thing quit sleeping around outside of marriage so like okay well let's get married and make this like legit you know like let's do it on the up and up but then you know like they didn't really understand what marriage was and what they're doing and what

01:12:15

God's purpose for marriage is and so then essentially marriage is just this opposite sex you know bestie with benefits and that's about it you know that's it just a person you do life together with and you know all that and like it's just that's just unrecognizable biblically yeah yeah and I think you know there might be some people listening who are probably a little bit revolted at the thought of both of my pastors coming to me and basically you know telling me hey quit being a selfish jerk you know they didn't say

01:12:54

I was a selfish jerk they didn't say that he has a poor memory no matter what

01:13:01

Tim tells you they didn't say that but I mean you know they were essentially confronting me about this maybe for some people they might hear that and kind of be like whoa that's a little weird you know why are your pastors telling you those kinds of things but then the reality is that was probably one of the greatest

01:13:24

I look back on that conversation with both of you guys if I'm just being totally honest here

01:13:31

I look back on that conversation probably as one of the things that I'm most thankful for in my whole life you know outside of those who shared the gospel with me and you know meeting my wife that's probably one of the single nights that I am most thankful for in my whole life because what it did was you know through the mercy of God and the gift of you know church discipline it gave and the faithfulness of my pastors and their boldness to be willing to tell me these things and not really be worried about what

01:14:09

I think be more concerned with the truth what it led to was you know a ton of blessing in my family and I think not even just in my family

01:14:18

I think just in our church in general I mean you confronted a few people and then everyone got baby fever you know there's so many kids now that have come from that one act of throwing you under the bus yeah so I all that to say

01:14:33

I really do look back on that on that conversation is probably one of the most loving things that anyone has ever done for me if I'm being honest and that's not me trying to play it up or whatever

01:14:44

I'm just that's legitimately how I think about it I've been I've always been so thankful that both of you guys that y 'all were that y 'all loved me enough to just tell me that even if you thought

01:14:56

I wasn't going to want to hear it so I've been really thankful for that and like I said it's led to a great great blessing and getting to have a child you know and really expanding our family and all of the many gifts that have led to that not just in my family but in our church in general so thank you guys for doing that I have a lot a lot of more sort of application based questions here

01:15:29

Tim so do you want do you want to keep going or do you want to try and make these some midweek things that we can sort of point people to in terms of how do we how do we address certain specific scenarios when it comes to not having kids and having kids how do you want to play that sure yeah why don't you just maybe ask a few more and we'll call it called quiz okay well the let's see so I guess maybe the first place to start would just be for the person who's listening and they're saying you know what

01:16:07

I actually do need to I actually do I'm the person who's been putting this off or maybe

01:16:12

I'm the unmarried person who really desires marriage but then doesn't really desire having children but then listening to us they've sort of been won over now or maybe there's someone out there listening who is married maybe they have one kid or they're about to have their first kid or something and they're starting to think to themselves alright how do

01:16:37

I figure out how many to have that's certainly a question that I've gotten asked a lot is how many children are you planning on having when are you guys going to stop so what are your thoughts when it comes to actually trying to figure out how many children to have so not just do we have children or do we not but how many do we have what are some things that couples need to think through in order to answer that question

01:17:11

I don't think any single person like is going to be able to answer that question for sure like how many kids should

01:17:24

I have projected out into the future and I would say that like young married people are not the best gauge of answering that question too so one of the worst things you can possibly do is sanctify some kind of subjective arbitrary number that you come up with it's actually two and a half it's two and a half so well that might get you in jail but no yeah

01:17:51

I think the worst thing you can do is try to sanctify some sort of number the truth is when we were encouraging you to get to it and start having kids there are very real financial concerns that people have when my wife and I had our first kid it wasn't as if I had some sort of wonderful plan in order to take care of not only a wife and a kid

01:18:16

I had a pretty dumb plan financially so I mean it really was it was a stupid plan to go to seminary and get married and you know we made maybe five thousand dollars a first year marriage

01:18:30

I mean it's just ridiculous and irresponsible in a lot of ways so you know

01:18:36

I think what people need to do is they need to basically as they're approaching a question along those lines they really do need to think to themselves

01:18:46

I know I'm ready to get married when I'm ready to move out of my parents house okay so if you want to know when you're ready to be married guy

01:18:59

Jesus goes and prepares a place for us so that we might be with him guy you know you're ready to be married when you're ready to financially support not only yourself but also a wife and a kid that's when you know you're financially ready to be married so what we need to be encouraging people to do is get themselves ready to be ready to be a provider at the beginning and a lot of what's happening is you have the double income no kid kind of phenomenon you have men who are not ready to provide and then they're trying to share this provision role with a wife and then essentially what happens is they're both sharing this role and then they're sharing all the domestic duties to and basically just undermining

01:19:44

God's design for the family at a pretty fundamental level but then they're strapped financially because neither one of them makes a whole lot of money they're not ready to take on a family they're not thinking about taking on a family at that point and so then it's just like well basically they're eking by with no ambition to change their scenario for years and years and years until they get ready to you know one day take the plunge but the problem is like you know there is a sense in which you do have to step out on faith at times like if you've dug yourself in a hole and you're in a bad situation there might be times where you just say hey just you know

01:20:17

God's going to have to take care of it you know because if I'm just looking at the numbers then I'm never going to have a kid you know so there are bad decisions you can make along those lines to put yourself in a scenario where you know you just it may feel financially unwise to have a kid just because you didn't prepare well but what

01:20:37

I would say though is just that you know trying to answer that question how many kids should we actually have well if you start off in the right way then what generally happens is you know

01:20:48

God will constantly just give you more money you know but I mean every step along the way it's just like I mean

01:20:56

I can look back at my life and it's just like you know we barely had enough to have one we didn't have enough to have one we had one in faith trusting in him to feed feed us and clothe us and it's been amazing just you know you have another one keeps on you know giving you more money have another one keeps on giving you more money have another one keeps on giving that so if you're just looking at the math like you know sometimes it's just like you do have to step out in faith a little bit and you know see so you know

01:21:25

I don't know that there's any simple answers to those kind of questions I mean I think you know you're not going to accurately be able to predict the whole scope of your life and trying to come up with some arbitrary number at the very beginning of your marriage when you're making the least money that you'll probably ever make you know and I can project that out in the future you just I think that's pretty unwise for most people just walk by faith take a step at a time you know and that's kind of how we that's the way that we approach children as far as that's concerned we just kept on going you know and part of the reason why we just kept on going was because like you know birth control was just a mess you know there's like concerns with many forms of birth control that they're abortifacient they sometimes a lot of times they make your your wife crazy you know so they do that make her crazy and you know extra hormonal and you know so there's those kind of things like the longer people are on birth control it like destroys their ability to have kids even you know so a lot of people like who go into marriage unable to have kids they either took the

01:22:34

COVID vaccine or I shouldn't laugh I'm not laughing about like that situation

01:22:40

I'm just you know yep but or they've been on birth control for many years and it's kind of destroyed their ability to have kids too and so like you know ladies who never touch birth control like they typically are more fertile than those who do and that's just a consequence of those kind of things but I mean

01:23:05

I think for us like we just like it's just there's just realities of like trying to prevent this feels strange for one and then for two like you know the ways that they're not very good you know despite all the advertising they're not very good and they have all these problems and so we just you know kept on going and you know

01:23:24

I mean I think everyone has to figure out how you're going to respond to those kind of things but I mean you know

01:23:31

I think you just you trust the Lord by faith and you know I think there's been times in our life where you know we have another one and it's just like hey we're treading water you know we have another one we're really treading water you know

01:23:44

God we have another one it's like we can barely breathe at this point you know like to where at some point you know somewhere along the line

01:23:51

I think there's some calculation that you know unless you adopt kind of a quiverful posture that individuals might make along those lines where it's just like hey we just our life situation isn't changing we keep on digging a hole we keep on digging a hole but you know

01:24:05

I wouldn't do it the first time no struggle I'd wait till you know have a few extra you know have a few more than have at least two or three more than what you think you can have and see what happens you know what

01:24:16

I mean yeah so but I think if you know if you're tapping out at like one you know that's some weak stuff right there huh?

01:24:25

weak sauce right there do you think some people are called to childlessness

01:24:32

I think the people who are called to childlessness are the people who are unable to have kids okay unable to have kids because like what they're infertile or something is that what you mean?

01:24:45

yeah I think those are the people who are called to it but you know I think one of the things that you the reason why like the thing is it's just like because of the advent of birth control we've separated reproduction from the sex act in a pretty fundamental way in a way that is somewhat you know it's ahistorical and it's kind of irrational so you have a body that's designed to do a certain thing and certainly you know sex brings pleasure so you're intended for pleasure sure but then you know you're also intended to procreate and so like that's you know you if you're the kind of couple

01:25:31

I mean if you're the kind of individual who's called to singleness like in order to advance God's kingdom then do it but like to bring some you know woman into that in order that you may just get your sexual desires met with none of the responsibility that comes from that is you know it's pretty selfish and the bible says that a barren womb is never satisfied and it's typically like ladies are not as happy with that arrangement as a guy is a guy is going to be perfect you know a guy could be in his selfishness tempted to be perfectly happy with that kind of thing

01:26:03

I'm not saying that that's always the case like this is just talking in generalizations there but typically you know the pressure at some point the lady's going to get the baby itch for the most part you know unless there's some kind of like baggage or something along those lines or some kind of you know traumatic events in the past or just you know straight up posture of feminism or something like that but typically you know like if you're not ready to have kids you're not ready to get married you know why do that you know why do that so why get why get married just like it doesn't make sense based on what

01:26:41

God's purpose for marriages actually is do you think the people who find out along the way that they're infertile are they so you're saying they're called to childlessness do you think there's any sense in which they probably need to think to themselves hey we need to start talking about how do we adopt like is that something that they should take on for themselves as like a

01:27:14

I guess like a sort of replacement in a way to just actually having biological children do they need to have something in them that says alright well we can't have our own children but we know there's certainly many many children out there who have no parents at all we need to make it our responsibility then to say let's go out and let's let's adopt some of them yes

01:27:39

I think that that's like a good thing that couples could think about and God obviously adopts us into our family and you know caring for widows and orphans in their distress is pure and undefiled religion

01:27:51

I would say it's you know it's not always as easy as all that in terms of like there are significant barriers to adoption that are there

01:28:03

I mean it's not as if you can just you know see an orphan on the side of the road and be like hey you know orphan do you want parents you know do you want parents do you want some parents we're happy to be your parents you know

01:28:16

I mean it's not that kind of situation to where like you can do that kind of thing without you know getting thrown in jail for kidnapping

01:28:23

I mean literal kidnapping there's a lot of money like adopting cost a ridiculous amount of money to do there are ways to do it you know but I'm not so I think certainly a couple that's one valid thing that they should consider that should be on the table

01:28:46

I wouldn't want to say that a couple who just looks at their situation and says hey like okay well we're just going to faithfully throw ourselves into serving the

01:28:56

Lord the best we can you know with our times and abilities that God has given us

01:29:01

I don't know like that's a fundamental act of unfaithfulness there you know if God sovereignly

01:29:09

I mean there's plenty of situations in the Bible where God sovereignly prevents individuals from having kids and it's not as if like the only faithful option at that point was to adopt so I wouldn't want to say that's the only faithful but that is certainly a faithful option.

01:29:26

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01:30:01

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