June 19, 2018 Show with Thomas Garrett Isham on “A Born Again Episcopalian: The Evangelical Witness of Charles Pettit McIlvaine”

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host. Good afternoon Cumberland.

County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all happy Tuesday on this 19th day of June 2018.

I am delighted to have as my returning guest today Thomas Garrett Isham, who is a published author, a former newspaper editor, a career journalist, and licensed lay preacher in the Episcopal Church in the Diocese of Western Michigan, who will address his book, A Born-Again Episcopalian, the Evangelical Witness of Charles Pettit McIlvain, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron.

Sharpens Iron Radio, Tom Garrett. Tom Isham, I'm sorry. Well that's part of it. Thank you, Chris. I'm glad to be back.

And we are supposed to be having join us as a special co-host today, Ken Samples. I don't know if he's joined us yet online, on the phone line. Ken, are you there? I guess he's not, but hopefully Ken will be calling in shortly.

And some of you may recognize this theme and be mistaken in your belief that this is a rerun. It is not a rerun. That is, it's not a rerun if you're listening on June 19th, 2018. Eventually it'll be a rerun, but I have interviewed someone else on this very same topic before, the Reverend Jacob Smith, who is the rector at the Parish of Calvary St. George's in Manhattan, a very biblically faithful congregation, at least today, and it was originally in its founding.

It is the congregation of the great Stephen H. Ting, who was a low church Episcopalian and thoroughgoing Calvinist in the 19th century, who was the pastor there. And Jacob Smith, by the blessings of our Lord and by the grace of our God, has redirected the church back to its biblical roots, as was, I think, his predecessor as well.

But he addressed this same topic because it was a very powerful influence. That book, the biography of Charles Pettit McElveen, by our guest today, was a very powerful influence upon his life, and since the author of that biography is still with us here on the planet Earth, I figured that we might as well interview Thomas Garrett Isham himself on his own biography.

And Ken Samples is still not with us. I'm hoping he joins us, but our original co-host was going to be Reverend Jacob Smith. I've known Reverend Jacob Smith for quite a long time, going back to 2005, I believe, but he could not make it because he had an important diocese.

I always mispronounce that. I'm a former Roman Catholic and I should know how to pronounce that. Dioceses, or how do you pronounce that?

Well, let's see, it'd be a diocesan meeting. Diocesan meeting. Yeah, there you go.

I guess I've been a Reformed Baptist so long that I've lost all the vocabulary of the Catholic Church, but we at least give our greetings to Reverend Jacob over the airwaves and hope that he is listening to this at least later on in a rerun or in a pre-recorded format.

Episcopalian Background and the Book on Charles Pettit McIlvaine

Before we go into the discussion at hand, why don't you give our listeners a bit of your background as an Episcopalian. I know that you gave this background the last time, but I think it's important that we revisit some of these things because many evangelicals, for sure, when they hear the word Episcopalian, they can't believe that you're possibly talking about anyone who is born again, and in fact, hence the title of your book, Born Again Episcopalian.

People either automatically go to one wing or another of the Episcopal Church or even the Anglican Church. They automatically may think of either very Romish Oxford movement, Tractarian, Puseyite Episcopalians and Anglicans who are extremely high church, who believe in many of the doctrines of Roman Catholicism that the Reformers rejected.

And my grandmother is a priest while she was living in my parents home when I was a little boy all the way through my late teens actually. Very nice man, Episcopal priest, but he was very Romish and in fact is on the precipice of converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and bringing the entire congregation with him because he's not a liberal.

And then you have on the other end of the spectrum, you have the apostasy of the left where you have those that not only may be in favor of homosexuality as a completely legitimate behavior for a Christian and they may even have as their own ministers or priests either male or female homosexuals actively involved in that behavior, or it might be even theological apostasy where they don't even believe in the deity of Christ, the Trinity, or the bodily resurrection.

So you have this, and I don't think I'm overstating the case, am.

I, Tom? Not at all. But you do have a minority of very sound, faithful men, even.

Calvinists, who are 39 Articles men, and if you could tell us something about your own background and then what eventually led you to write the.

Biography of Charles Pettit McIlvain of Ornegan Episcopalian. Yes, well, yeah, what did I say before? Let me just sum up my background further into his life. Logian, a pastor, a revivalist, he had all...

Now what was the Episcopal.

Church like when he was a minister and then eventually a bishop? Obviously you didn't have the more grotesque forms of Episcopalianism in existence back then. People would have been imprisoned probably back then if they had that real leftist mutation of Episcopalianism.

Right. But what else was he dealing with? Obviously he was most likely dealing with some of the Romish influence, although I've heard that that really started to return heavily in the.

18th century, but tell us about what he faced as an Episcopalian. Yeah, well, he, by 1811, did make some act. Which was dominant? Which was dominant at his time. Yeah, by his time, by the 1840s, the High Church, so yeah, he had to contend with the High Church folks, but then, as you mentioned, the Tractarian movement.

Right, and in fact, there are even today,.

There are even today some High Church Anglicans who are thoroughgoing.

Calvinists, although they would probably be in the minority. They would definitely, but yeah, in 1841. Yeah, and John Henry Newman is a very crucial figure in this.

Whole discussion because he was an Episcopalian or Anglican who converted.

To Roman Catholicism. Right, right, and that had been. And the thing that.

Disturbs me most about John Henry Newman, and I know that I've said this before on this program, but I think it bears repeating because his quote is so often repeated by Roman Catholic apologists and it infuriates me because it's, I think, a lie.

He said, John Henry Newman said, that to be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant, and I have found the exact opposite to be.

True in my whole life. Yeah, you mentioned that, I believe, and I'll read you the title, which in those days there came the last word, and McIlvaine wrote a rejoinder, H. Oxford. It was a long letter.

I mean, it was, and he wrote, the difference is that this is right within the Church. Hey Chris, can you hear me? Now.

We have Ken Samples joining us. Ken Samples is co-hosting the program today. There was a mix-up, I understand, with the Pacific time versus the Eastern time. Ken is in California. He is former senior research consultant and correspondence editor at the Christian Research Institute, also known as CRI, and he's the former co-host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast.

He is currently a senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe and a member of a conservative, biblically faithful, Anglican Church, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, this time for the very first time as a co-host, Ken Samples.

Hey, thank you. I'm sorry I'm.

Butting in here late, but I've been listening to your interview and it's really good to be with both of you. I've found the conversation... Well, why don't.

We start at this point, Ken, as far as your involvement is concerned, is how you were drawn. I know that you have been involved in Presbyterian churches and United Reformed Church of North America congregations, the Dutch Reformed wing of the Protestant faith, and now you find yourself in an Anglican Church.

What drew you to want to even consider joining an Anglican Church? And tell us something about the specific congregation where.

You are attending. Yeah, that's a really good question. I, of course, grew up kind of in a nominal Catholic family. You know, my parents converted to Catholicism in the early 60s, and I wasn't terribly well-catechized, but when I was early college, that's when my life kind of led me to become interested in Christianity, and I was kind of part of a Catholic talking about Jesus.

Evangelically sounding terms, it seemed to me. But through meeting Walter Martin, who was the original Bible Answer Man, I embraced a Protestant evangelical faith. Sometime later, of course, I Reformed theology, and I was very attracted to a rigor in the Reformed tradition.

Yet, I always liked liturgy. I always appreciated liturgy. I like a very strong Trinitarian element in the service, and I was always impressed with the 39 Articles, which are not only Protestant. I liked that kind of element, I appreciated that kind of element.

Aesthetics, the church that I attend, America, as your guest, the more liberal, you know, have, I really like the, I love the 39 Articles. I am also recently in very much that tradition. It is interesting.

You have Reformed, you have others, and I mourned. I was in a church. They were very, very concerned about America.

Now, were they from Sydney in Australia? Yes, they were. Because even in Australia, they have a lot of liberalism, but the Sydney folks seemed to be the most conservative that I've heard of in Australia.

I'm gonna take a question from a listener before we go to the break, and perhaps you can answer it, Tom, when we return. And of course, Ken, if you have anything to add. And Ken, since I cannot see you, I'm asking you to butt into the conversation whenever you have a question, because I can't see any kind of facial expressions or waving hands or anything.

Very good. But we have a listener, Susan, who is actually bi-residential. She is from Setauket, Long Island, New York, and Scottsville, Kentucky. And she has a question that is very relevant to what we are discussing right now.

She says, or asks, how influential was the Oxford movement to the demise of evangelicalism in the Episcopal Church? And we're gonna have both Tom and if Ken has anything to say, also answer that when we return from our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if you have a private and personal question.

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We are now back with Thomas Garrett Isham, who is the author of A Born-Again Episcopalian, The Evangelical Witness of Charles Pettit McIlvaine, and we also have co-hosting the program Kenneth R. Samples, who is also an author and he's the senior research scholar at Reason to Believe, and a conservative Anglican.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And Sue, from both Secauket, Long Island, and Scottsville, Kentucky, asked before the break, how influential was the Oxford Movement to the demise of.

Evangelicalism in the Episcopal Church? Tom? Yeah, and the high church. In fact, I know and have communicated with a number of Anglo-Catholics who refuse to identify themselves as Protestant in any way.

Yes, yes, and so the more and more you... And this is what year, I'm sorry, that this reached this point? Well, I said by the turn of the 20th century, the evangelicals had shown up for decades. In the 1830s, he presented like he didn't...

The high church folks sat down in the 1830s and the group was kind of... We have another.

Listener. We have, let's see, Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that the great low church Anglican bishop, who was also a Calvinist, J .C. Ryle, in England, was a contemporary of McIlvaine, and if I am correct on that, do you know of any correspondence or.

Friendship between the two of them? I am... We have John in Bangor, Maine, who asks,.

Why is it that liberalism seems to have completely swallowed the Episcopal Church, even though it has such a rich history of biblical faithfulness, including the 39 articles that were drafted by Thomas Cramner, also a very.

Strong Calvinist? Well, do you think that a part of it has to do with when a.

Church that is historically and traditionally confessional starts to view the confession as an antiquated document that does not need to be highly.

Considered? Well, that's certain, although they began to... Yeah, they certainly.

Wouldn't have been fond of the 39 articles because it identifies the Roman Mass as idolatrous and other things that are clearly not.

Roman Catholic in the... Right, right, they would have no truck with that, and obviously the documents... We have a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island, CJ, who says.

Or asks, do you know of much of anything about Bishop McIlvain's biblical ecumenism? I am not speaking here of ecumenical relationships with the Church of Rome or with liberal apostates, but with other biblically faithful denominations, congregations, and fellowships.

It seems that sometimes churches like the Episcopal and Anglican Church and the Lutheran Church, even though there may be many faithful men amongst them, they tend to isolate themselves too much and are not very much involved in participation with fellowship with Baptists and Presbyterians and others who love the.

Scriptures and proclaim them. Excellent question, and yes, Matt, an evangelical... We have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who says, has your guest encountered the.

Redrafted liturgy by the late Peter Thun and the Prayer Brook Society, and if so,.

Could he please comment on that liturgy? In a word, no. Sorry to let you down, and no, I'm not familiar with Ida, rather. Yeah, I'll read her, it's short, whereas when she did... Well, you're looking for it, I'll read it.

Okay, go ahead. I've got it, but go ahead if you...

I was just going to repeat our email address, if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Go ahead. Yeah,.

Well, what this brings to light... We are going to... Go ahead, go ahead, Ken.

Peter Thun was one of the people that I read that had a little theology. Thun has a terrific... God, a biblical... remarkably, and before his death, which he had some immune disorder disease and died a few years ago, but he has... he worked here in America on an Anglican... and all of Thun's books are available free on the web to be downloaded.

He gave all the rights up, but I've always appreciated Peter Thun very much. Yeah, thank you.

Well, we're going to our midway break right now. This is a longer than normal break, because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, they require of us a 12-minute break between our two major segments, because they have their own commercials and public service announcements and other things that they air.

So please be patient during this elongated break. Use this time not only to write questions for my guest Thomas Isham, and if you have a question for Ken Samples as well, my co-host today, you can feel free to send us a question for Ken, and also please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We just have a couple of very important announcements to make. First of all, the Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, is having as a guest speaker, my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa, on Sunday, July 1st.

And if you'd like to attend that meeting, go to hopereformedli .net for more details. Hopereformedli .net. And you can also call Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island at 631 -696 -5711. 631 -696 -5711.

And that following Friday, Dr. Costa will be speaking at an event that I am orchestrating or have orchestrated, along with my friend Pastor Andy Woodard of the New Covenant Church in New York City. We are having Dr. Tony Costa in the heart of Manhattan provide a free seminar.

It will be held at the First Baptist Church of New York City, a very historic church dating back to the 1700s. One of the earlier pastors of that church was actually the personal chaplain of George Washington.

It's located on 79th and Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side. Dr. Costa will be speaking on defending the faith in a postmodern society. He'll also be speaking on the dangers of cultural Marxism's impact on society and the church.

And he's also going to have a Q &A session with the audience. If you would like to attend this event, and I'm begging you, please spread the word like wildfire about this event because I want to see as many Iron Sherpins Iron radio listeners as possible at this event.

Call the New Covenant Church in New York City at 646 -770 -2282. 646 -770 -2282. You can also email Pastor Andy Woodard at the New Covenant Church in New York City at NCCNYCinfo at gmail .com. That's NCC standing for New Covenant Church.

NYC for New York City. Info at gmail .com. Or you can email me, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put Tony Costa event in New York City in the subject line. We hope to see you Friday, July 6th, 630 p .m. to 10 p .m. at the First Baptist Church of New York City on 79th and Broadway in Manhattan.

And then coming up in November, actually, let me back up there for a minute. Before that event in November, there is another very important event that you need to know about in August. That's the Fellowship Conference New England.

My dear friend, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, organizes this annual event. And I thank God for Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, because they have financially supported Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for quite a while and have bailed us out with some scary situations financially.

And the Fellowship Conference New England is being held August 2nd through the 4th at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. And there is no one theme at this conference. As a tradition, they let each speaker speak on what is most pressing upon their heart and mind during the time of the conference.

The speakers include Pastor Tim Conway of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who I just mentioned, of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. He's also an author and a book editor and publisher.

Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, the sister church of Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, whose radio station airs Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every.

Day.

Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is an author and pastor at Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire. And if you'd like to attend that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

And then, as I said before, I was starting to say, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals in November, the 9th through the 10th, is having their Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, not to be confused with the Reform Town Conference on Quaker Theology.

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The theme is The Glory of the Cross. If you'd like to attend this conference, and I will be there, God willing, with an Iron Sharpens Iron Exhibitor's booth, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

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And now, very briefly, I just want to let you know that we are, as always, in need of your contributions here on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. I just thank God that my friends at Battery Depot .com and Linbrook Baptist Church on Long Island and the publishers of the New American Standard Bible have renewed their advertising contracts with me.

I am praising God about that and so grateful to God for them. And also for you in the audience who have been donating to us after a dry spell where we weren't receiving any donations. Oh, thank you so much, all of you, and you know who you are who have been donating to help us remain on the air.

If you don't want us to hit another one of those really scary dry spells, please donate to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. If you love the show and you don't want it to disappear, go to IronSherpa'sIronRadio .com, support, and click, click to donate now.

Don't ever siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member. Please, and if you're not a member of a local Bible-believing church, you need to join one because you're living in rebellion against God if you're not a member or prayerfully seeking for a Bible-believing church near you.

I can help you. I have lists of faithful churches all over the United States and all over the world,.

Actually.

So send an email to me at ChrisOrenson at gmail .com if you need help finding a good church. But please don't siphon money away from your regular giving to that church. Don't put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.