Jesus if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Really?

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Welcome to Apologetics Live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

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Bible. Meet your hosts from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, Dr. Anthony Silvestro, and Pastor Justin Pierce.

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We are live, Apologetics Live, here to answer your questions, challenges, or anything else you may have for us.

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We can answer any question you have about God and the Bible. You doubt that? Well, join us, give us your greatest challenge, and let us see if we can answer your question.

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How do you do that? Go to ApologeticsLive .com. There is a button to watch there.

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You can watch it there. You can go a little bit further down, and there you have instructions on how, if you're watching on Facebook, how to include your name.

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So we pop up comments. Let's see. Like this, who said .postmill?

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Well, that's Facebook user. And a Facebook user who is saying .postmill was to put his, follow the instructions.

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We would say, we would know who is saying just for you, LOL, instead of just calling him Facebook user.

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But he says love you, brother. So, see, because then we can look at here. See, Chris knows how to do it and says .pre,

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or hashtag premill. So clearly, Chris not only knows how to use the software properly, but has the right theology.

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It's probably, my guess, my guess, we'll see if Facebook user is, my guess, Pastor Darren Steed.

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We will see. If I'm right, maybe he can let us know. Oh, Brandon Scalf.

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Oh, I was off. Okay. Well, thank you for that, Justin. Yeah, well, birds of a feather flock together.

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Or, you know, I'm going to get myself in trouble. Just let me bring Pastor Justin, and I'm going to get myself in trouble.

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You know, we were on, um, we were, we were at the, uh, the

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Apologetics cruise, and, uh, this is a bad one to use, but, but, but what

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Matt actually said was demons of a feather flock together. And I don't know, should I use that with those two characters?

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Yeah, maybe not. Maybe not. They're actually good guys. No, they're good guys. Even if their eschatology is off.

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Yeah. But that's okay. We won't hold it against them. They're, they'll be, they'll be right for eternity.

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So for that. All right. Uh, so we're, what we're going to do today is

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I got about an hour of video for us to play through. Folks, let me just say up front,

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I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Forgive me for putting you through this, but I actually had to live through it.

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And you're going to get to watch, um, after one of the shows on Apologetics Live, we had, we had someone that came into our

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Christian apologetics group and wanted to, wanted to invite me onto a show of theirs.

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And so I said, well, you know, they wanted to work together and have a Bible study. So we have

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Apologetics Live. You can come on anytime. And after one of the shows, the guy said, Hey, look,

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I missed your show, but you want to come on and just share the gospel for 15 minutes. It was a setup.

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It was not what I expected. And we're going to play what happened. And we're going to, we're going to talk through this and give you guys a, well, it's going to be helpful in this sense.

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You may get stuck in a situation where you get set up your, you run into a cultic group.

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You think that someone is a solid believer and you find out they're not, you hear something for the first time and you don't go, what in the world?

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How do I answer this? I heard something for the very first time. I didn't know response.

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I tried to gather information, but I'm going to point out, well, the practices that cultic groups have and why it's hard to get answers from them and what you do at that point, when, when is it appropriate to walk away when you're throwing pearls before swine?

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We're going to see that. We're going to see that the tactics, as I mentioned, and so I'm hoping this will be helpful for everybody, even though it'll be painful to watch.

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And I admit that I recognize that, and I'm sorry ahead of time for that. Before we get to that though, we need to address something on some of the comments that we had.

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Some we have on YouTube. I don't really respond to the YouTube comments. Sometimes I do very rarely.

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So what will we, oh, this is interesting.

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This is about last week's comment. So Ethan says, please pray for Cedarville University. I'm trying to get them to stop playing

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Bethel and Hillsong in chapel. There's a lot of support from the students right now. Well, do me a favor, contact me about that so that I can,

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I'm traveling. I'll be traveling first thing in the morning, so I'll probably forget, but yeah, let me, let me call

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Dr. White and talk to him about that. So he's, he's a, he would,

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I think if you understood the issues, he's a very solid brother and I would find it hard to believe he would want to support that.

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But then again, school, some things are out of your control. So, but we'll definitely be praying for that.

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But on last week's show, there was some comments made, comments about you, Pastor Justin.

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So I want to deal with this. I got a lot of comments from Ronald Small. Now, one of the things with Facebook or sorry, with YouTube, I don't always, there's a notifications.

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I click on that and I see part of a comment and I click on it and I get a totally different comment.

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So I don't quite get it, but let me, let me read some of the other, the other comments that I saw before that because I think that it'll build up to the one.

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There was one comment where he made on a video with Jason Lyle, where he said,

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I would not consider a Christian building that is part of a multi -religion complex to actually be

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Christian. I would avoid that satanic hive at all costs. So now this comment is actually not a bad comment per se, it needs correction.

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Folks, if you go to a church that rents from another church, say they rent from, from a cultic group, okay, just be aware that they're not supporting the cultic group.

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If they're a non -profit organization, which by definition, any church or religious group is, then by definition, you, when you rent out a building, you can only rent it out for utilities.

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Okay, you cannot rent it to make money. This is why churches go to like a seven -day

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Adventist group or a synagogue or some, some group like that to rent, because they're not supporting that group.

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It's, it's not like they're paying for the public education by funding them and paying for a school or going to a hotel and funding that.

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What you're doing when you're doing with non -profit is just paying the utilities. Now, there's some other things he said specifically to you,

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Mr. Pierce. He said, all respect for Mr. Pierce has gone now that I found out he had the vaccine so weak, so sold out, so sorry.

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I just can't respect anyone who is falling for this baloney. Now the comment that I couldn't see that I, that's the one

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I read. The one that was in the notification said from him, Justin Pierce is already not my favorite because I find him to be weak.

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Now I find out that he took the vaccine, which just makes me see him as a sellout, even weaker.

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Sorry, I can't respect dot, dot, dot. That's all I had. Now, before you get upset,

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Justin, I also saw him comment about Jason Lyle saying that Jason Lyle's one -way speed of light being instant coming toward the earth idea works beautifully for a geocentric universe.

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So, hmm, that for what it's worth, he, yeah. But let me be clear, okay, for folks.

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And I've asked Justin not to say anything at this point. He did not see these, those, the things ahead of time.

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He didn't know about it, but here's the thing, folks. It would be a fair assessment to say that Justin and I have differing views on the vaccine.

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We've made that public here. However, to call him weak or a sellout because of reasons that he chose to take a vaccine.

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Well, let me be clear. Please don't watch this anymore. If that's your, your position, we don't want you.

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We don't want you commenting, Ronald. We don't need it. In fact, I'm almost tempted to block you if you say anything more negative about him, because what you're doing is showing the legalism that everyone must submit to your views and your views.

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You put up and say if people don't hold to your view, they're a sellout. You show me in the

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Bible where it says that you must not take the vaccine to be a

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Christian and I'll accept that. You're not going to find that, Ronald. Do you know why? It's not there.

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That is your legalism. And the Bible does speak about legalism. In fact, there's an entire book devoted to legalism, the book of Galatians.

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So go read that because what Paul says is anyone that adds to the gospel is anathema.

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That's not me saying that. That's Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit saying that.

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So if you want to say that Justin is a sellout because he doesn't submit to your worldview, then your worldview, since it doesn't align with the

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Bible, it's adding to the gospel, you're not saved. You need to repent.

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Now, this is not coming from someone that agrees with Justin. I do not agree with his position, okay?

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But the fact that I disagree doesn't mean that I sit here and question his Christianity or whether he's a sellout or whether he's a genuine

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Christian or calling him weak. I'm sorry. I'm going to stick up for the truth and I'm going to stick up for someone whose character

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I know. You don't know his character. You don't know the reasons he took a vaccine.

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So you should have first asked that question before you made an assessment, okay?

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You can't make an assessment of why he did that just by the fact that he said he did that. I can make an assessment on what you're saying because, well, you said that and I compare it to Scripture and say, well,

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Scripture commands me in Corinthians to judge you based on your behavior since you claim to be a

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Christian. And yeah, I judge you as needing the gospel. Sorry.

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I know most shows would not tell people not to listen, but, you know, I just don't have a lot of patience for folks who are going to call someone out in that way.

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Now, let me see if this is going to work. I lost permission.

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Hold on. I have to go and give for me. I'm on a new browser. While you're there,

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I appreciate you doing that, brother. I really do. Just so everybody knows, I don't mind saying it.

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Five years ago, I had surgery that almost killed me, and then I had to have a reconstructive surgery to fix my problem right before COVID.

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And at the time, everybody in the world thought it was deadly. I got to drop out and come back in is what it's telling me, so I'm going to go do that.

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You keep going. I'll keep going. So just so everybody knows, I didn't take the

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COVID vaccine because I thought it was something that would make me saved or not.

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I took it because right after my surgery, the virus came out, and we were told that I was in a high -risk category.

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Trump was doing the vaccine, working on the vaccines and stuff.

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And the evidence I saw said I should probably get it. At the time, we were all in panic mode, and I didn't take it lightly.

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And I just wanted everybody to know, I don't think Andrew's a Christian or not a Christian based on COVID.

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I understand his reasons. I understand his arguments. I understand the people that don't want to take it, and I completely understand.

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At the time, I felt like, hey, I better take it because it seems like it's going to be something very, very dangerous.

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And so that's why I took the vaccine just the same way as I took the flu vaccine last year and the way

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I'll take it again. It's a vaccine, take it or don't. Melissa, you said,

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I appreciate you doing this, you saying this. I appreciate you saying that.

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I'm sorry, Joanne. You don't owe us an explanation, Justin. And I appreciate that, but I don't want somebody to think,

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Andrew and I, we disagree on the vaccine, but I agree with him on his concern over it.

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The more things that I've learned, the more things I've seen, the more concerns that there are, and we do need to be concerned, and we do need to care about getting these things right.

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It's something that we need to care about. Yes, there's government overreach, and yes, there's all kinds of problems.

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Guys, we've argued against socialism from day one, and that's what we're seeing, tyranny, socialism.

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You take the vaccine or you can't work, you can't eat, you can't go out and do things. We've seen that, and I don't stand for any of that.

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I don't support it in any way. My job is to proclaim the gospel. And in my mind, if it's going to help me be able to do ministry, if it's not going to be deleterious,

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I'm going to take the precautions that I can to prolong my life long enough to share the gospel and proclaim the gospel with everyone.

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I do appreciate Andrew. Andrew's one of my best friends, dear brother, and we don't disagree on hardly anything.

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This is one area we have some disagreement on, but we don't hardly disagree on anything. So for him to stand up for me means more to me than anybody else, and I appreciate it.

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You're welcome. Well, let's take a look at this now. Let me remove the banner here.

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Okay. So what you're seeing on the screen, folks, is you're going to see a guy at the top.

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His name is Patrick. Second guy is Orjun.

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I forget how to pronounce it. He'll mention it on the show. Now, the other guy is a Dr. Matthew.

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This is a guy who was invited into the show very much like me.

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I'm skipping the first six minutes of what happened. The first six minutes, they brought him in.

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They invited him in just as they invited me, and they did the same thing to him that they did with me.

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They explained, well, we're here to talk about the gospel, and they each explained the gospel, and then they asked him to explain the gospel.

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Now, I did ask Dr. Matthew if he'd want to join us to share his experience, what he experienced with this group.

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He didn't feel he was really good on live streams. He's from India, so different time zone. He and I would probably not agree.

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He didn't get to talk much, but he's Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox. It was different Orthodox, and because of his accent,

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I couldn't pick up what he was saying. But what he was doing was going to the creeds.

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Okay, that's not necessarily a bad thing to go to creeds. But they seemed as if this is their behavior.

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This is what this group does is invite people in, and they make it sound like, hey, we're here.

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We want to talk about the gospel. The invite that they gave me was, would you join us and talk about the gospel for 15 minutes?

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And once you get in there, it's an ambush. Okay, they set the trap. Now, Dr.

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Matthew started to recognize that as soon as I came in. They're like, oh, Andrew Rappaport. Okay, and they suddenly ignored him, and you'll see at one point where they actually, you know,

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I try to hand it back because I felt bad for Dr. Matthew here who's trying to speak, and they're like, no.

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Like, you know, this guy Borgen is like, no, Andrew, I'm talking to Andrew, you know. So let me let you up front know the practices that you see with groups so you can see them.

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You'll spot them often and be able to see when someone's setting you up like this. What are some cultic practices?

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Well, one of the things you're going to see with these guys is they're going to, when asked a simple yes, no question or any direct question, they're not going to answer directly.

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What these guys do is just recite scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture, giving no context to any one of them, but they'll have one word that each of them mention, and they ignore the context.

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And what they do is just by saying, by what you're supposed to do is think that the scripture supports their view because they put all these scriptures together and the scriptures have the similar words in it.

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That's called proof texting. What you're going to even see is at one point, I'm going to ask them, let's back up and look at the context of all these things.

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They don't want to do that. Okay. They can't answer simple questions. And when challenged, they're going to say, well, no, we only talk scripture here.

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And what they want me to do is be like them and only cite scripture verses. The irony is when

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I was doing that without giving the references, when I was just quoting scripture, they didn't like it.

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No, they actually claimed that I don't use scripture. And at one point, I'm even going to say, you don't know your scriptures if you don't realize that just because it doesn't have the citation doesn't mean it's scripture.

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Now, one thing I didn't realize because I didn't see the beginning of the show until I was already off the show was the fact that the guy in the second one there, he's the main talker, and he believes in the

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King James Bible. Now, what you're going to see, folks, it took me a bit to figure it out, and I'm still not a hundred percent clear on what they're teaching.

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But essentially, they believe that Jesus is the name of the father. Jesus is the name of the son.

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Jesus is the name of the Holy Spirit. But Jesus is not God. He's the son of God. Okay.

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It's non -modalism. You're going to hear, and the reason I'm playing this is I think this will be helpful for us to see, what do you do in a situation like this?

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You hear something, it's false teaching, you don't know it. You're going to watch me try to gather information.

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It's hard to gather information because you're dealing with what Greg Coco would refer to as steamrollers. Guys that just want to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and not let you get a word in edgewise.

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How do you deal with that? Well, what Greg Coco would say is you arrange, you ask for rules.

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You speak, I speak, and then when they don't follow the rules, you shame them. And then at one point you leave.

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Well, you're going to see that. You're going to watch me get to a point where I'm going to leave, and I'm going to tell them when I leave, hey,

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I'm leaving, and you guys in your pride, you're going to sit there and claim that you want a victory. I'm leaving because you're not letting me speak.

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And then I leave. And sure enough, they go, he couldn't handle it. Oh, he's a coward. He ran. Well, folks, let me be clear.

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We know who the cowards are. I told these guys, I challenged them to a formal debate, a debate where we have equal time, and they would have to actually prove their case.

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Silence. Silence. Why? Crickets. Actually, one of these buttons is the cricket sound. Let's see.

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There we go. There we go. Crickets. That's what I got. You know why? Because they can't answer.

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They didn't want to. What they want to do is do this where they have, now in this, you only see two of the guys, and one's going to be the main speaker.

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Later, two more are going to come in, and it's going to be four on one. And they're just rapid fire.

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This is no different. If you go back to when I taught you how to deal with black Hebrew Israelites, it was the same thing.

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You try to isolate one, because they're all going to try and do a gang mentality. That's why they don't want a one -on -one.

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They don't want a time debate, because in those things, they have to be able to use a reasonable answer, and they don't have one.

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That's why they use these tactics. I want you to be able to see these things.

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Let's play through this. Justin, if you find something you feel, I need to stop, just stop me. This is an hour long, and I do want to try to play it.

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Now, I will give a warning, just for the sake of time, and I hope this isn't hard for folks.

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I'm glad I did check this. I had it at double speed. I'm going to be playing this at a one and a quarter speed, so a little bit quicker.

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Just so you know, it's going to be a little quicker, so we can get through it. You can see here, they went for two and a half hours.

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This is at minute six, so let's listen. Hey, man. Welcome, Andrew Rappaport.

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Hello. How are you? Good. How are you? Better than I deserve. All right. You sound like, what's his name there?

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Dave Ramsey. That's his favorite. No, I sound like Chief. You're Jordan. That's where I got it from. From who?

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The guy who started the seminary. Okay.

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So... Oh, okay. You went to seminary school? I did, many years ago.

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Okay. Don't hold it against me. Oh, we won't. We won't. We won't hold the scripture against you.

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Okay. So one of the things that you pick up early on, just so you see it is, and I don't know why this is jumpy a bit, but hopefully that'll work out.

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One of the things you see early on is they're not a big fan of seminary. Okay.

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Something you're going to see with different groups. Any group that belittles education and says, oh, just scripture, just scripture, that's a warning sign, folks.

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It's a warning sign to any person that says that they just have scripture because that is a method of what you end up seeing there is, you see people that do that is, they, it sounds spiritual, but it's actually pride.

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Pride. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But let's continue and hopefully it won't be jumpy here. So do you know for sure if you're going to heaven?

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According to God's word. Yeah. Okay. And why, Andrew, why should God let you into heaven?

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Oh, he shouldn't. Absolutely shouldn't. He says we should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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So I think we should. So right there, I'm thinking, wait, do you know the scriptures all have fallen short of the glory of God and he thinks we should, but didn't get into that.

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Remember at this point, I'm still thinking this is a friendly group. I'm thinking this is a group that came into our

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Christian apologetics, say they've been following this ministry and wanted me on.

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I'm thinking it's friendly. Well, but we all fall short of God's glory.

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And so we deserve eternity and lake of fire. But by his grace, he has given some eternal life.

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And so do I deserve it? No, I don't deserve heaven. Will I be there?

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I'll be there by his grace because what he did on the cross, when he, he died in my place by a transaction on the cross of imputation, where he took my sin upon himself and in exchange gives me his righteousness.

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So. And so what happened after he died? Is there, is there more to the story here? Oh, there's way more to the story.

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The gospel, the gospel by which we're saved by. Why don't you? Well, I mean, in its shortest, in its shortest is what

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I said, imputation is the fact that there was an exchange. We break God's law. We sin. We violate his, his law there because he's an eternal being because he has, he is eternally holy.

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He is, you know, it carries with it an eternal consequence. And so the consequence is a consequence of punishment.

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That punishment is we'd refer to as the lake of fire. And so that's what we all deserve. However, God came to earth, became a human being, so he could be a sacrificial substitute for us.

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And in doing so, when he went to the cross as an eternal being, God, also being a man who lived perfectly, never breaking the law as a man, he could be a sacrifice for us, but being eternal

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God, he can pay an eternal fine. And so if, if it wasn't for the fact that he was eternal, we would, uh, we wouldn't be able to pay the eternal fine.

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And so this is what makes Christ unique. He's a fully man so that he could be that sacrifice for human beings being fully

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God. He is eternal and can pay that fine once in time, but he being an eternal being, it counts for all of eternity.

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And so he doing that actually reveals the only religion where you can have a God who's both just and merciful when it comes to people who go to being able to go to heaven, because if God is just, he has to punish sin.

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He's merciful. He can let people go, but he was able to be both just and merciful by paying the fine himself.

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And then he can let us go. And so what happened was he died on a cross. That was the payment of sin.

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But the proof that he was who he said he was, that he's almighty God, the proof that we can know that we can have eternal life is that he rose himself from the dead.

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Something that dead people don't do. Dead people rot. That's what dead people do. But he being

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God rose himself from the dead so that it would vindicate to people to know that he is who he claimed he was and claiming to be

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God. He also claimed he had the authority to forgive sin. And, you know, he did that.

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And so those who receive him have the right to be called God. And how do you receive him?

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Well, which is the first thing you have right there on the on the screen there, right? He came into the world.

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Yeah. So and so he came into the world. The world was made by him that knew him not.

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He came into his own and his own received him not. But as many receive him have the power to become sons of God, even to them that believe in his name.

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So we receive him by it's a step of repentance, something that God does upon us. Can you show me that in scripture, the step of repentance?

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Okay, so this is just there you go. Yeah, this is where I'm going to start to go. This group may not be so friendly.

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This is the start of it, because I'm going he's questioning repentance. Now, this is where I'm starting.

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In my mind, I'm just letting you guys know what's going on in my mind. Of course, I stopped it at best about that. Look at my face. My face looks bad when

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I stop like I look like I'm falling asleep there. The but at this point in my mind, and I want to share with you guys what

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I'm thinking at different times so you understand so you can learn from this and maybe this week will be helpful.

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What would end up happening? Okay, he's challenging repentance. There are different groups that challenge repentance.

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With an easy believism, that wasn't where they were going. But that's what I'm wondering. And so I'm going, okay.

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But the other thing that got me is show me in scripture. Now, is that a good thing, Justin, that we ask people like, don't we want to see it in scripture?

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Sure, absolutely. Okay, that's true. And yet, but there's sometimes when people are saying, well, show me in scripture with that what they're really saying is, you know,

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I'm not trusting what you're saying. You know, they, they, they're going to try to twist the scriptures to say what they want it to say, and then say, you're not following scripture.

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And that's what he's going to do. Let's listen to the scripture. Well, I would say that what we would have is that God grants belief out of Philippians 129.

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Okay, Philippians 129. Yeah. So let's see here. As he says, for it is given to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but to also suffer for his sake.

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The repentance part, though, I just want to see where we have to repent. Okay, so you see what happened there? You know, he's asking the question.

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And, and, you know, I think he's asking the question of the fact that I'm saying that repentance is on God does.

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So I'm trying to bring him to where, you know, this is, I'm, I'm wondering where we're at.

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I'm thinking he's talking easy believism. So I'm going to a passage to try to show that our belief is granted to us.

30:15

But then I'm realizing, no, he wants this specific word repent. So Justin, I was glad that I had my

30:22

Logos Bible software. And if you guys don't have Logos Bible software, you could, you could get it, get even get some free books off of us.

30:30

Just go to bit .ly slash SFA Logos. It's on the screen. It'll be in the show notes, but get your copy of Logos because that's what really helped me in this because I had to jump through scriptures and quickly find things.

30:42

Maybe you're like a Matt Slick and you just have it all memorized. I'm not. So I, so let's, let's, let's try to find, okay, let's deal specifically with the word repentance.

30:54

Well, when Christ, when Christ came on earth, what did he instruct people to do? Which line?

31:00

Do you know where the scripture is? I don't believe you have to repent in order to be saved. I believe you have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

31:06

What is it? Okay. So right there, you get where I'm thinking some easier, right? It's you don't, you don't have to repent later.

31:13

He's going to say repentance is a work. Okay. Lacking the understanding what repentance is. I'm going to even explain it, but I want you to notice he's telling us what he believes and he's not giving us scripture.

31:25

Okay. I'm pointing that out because you're going to see a double standard, especially when they're all in there where they want.

31:32

The only thing I'm allowed to say is scripture, but they can say what they want and not provide scripture.

31:39

Okay. In fact, I don't know if it was when Borgen was, was, was speaking with Dr.

31:46

Matthew, one of the other, where he ends up saying, he mentions the canopy theory, which, you know, is not in scripture.

31:57

In fact, good science would say that there, the canopy theory doesn't work. The earth would be too hot.

32:03

So, you know, it's not good science and it's not good Bible, but he holds to it.

32:08

Is it scripture? No, but let's, let's listen. It helps if I hit play.

32:15

What is it that you, what is repentance? Repentance is essentially stopping one thing and doing something different.

32:23

Remember God was going to do evil and Jonah, the book of Jonah onto these. Okay. Now let's stop it here just to point something out.

32:29

Notice how he answers a question, right? I asked him a direct question. Here's the first time in pride.

32:35

I think the only time he answered a direct question, but he didn't stop there. He then jumped on the word repentance and starts jumping all over the

32:42

Bible where the word repentance has a meaning other than the meaning that we are using it.

32:49

Okay. And he does that. That's purposeful folks. People like this do this on every cultic group.

32:54

They have, they lack integrity with language. Okay. It's one of the things I say about cultic groups is that they lack integrity with language.

33:04

And so what you end up seeing here, oh, we're going to get to the Mark passage that you just put up there.

33:10

Don't worry. You're muted. So I can't hear you. I said, that's okay. I was just getting it ready.

33:15

So I know you were going, so you know, you know where I was going and you didn't even watch this. So, well,

33:21

I'm just going to get passages ready. Cause I know where he's going to go and I know where you're going. So. Yeah. So, so what ends up happening is he's going to go to Jonah and talk about God repenting.

33:30

Okay. Totally different meaning. Okay. I'm going to try to correct it and we'll see what happens.

33:38

And he, and he did it not, so he repented him. He repented and then he created man. Right. And he took them all out.

33:45

Right. Except for me. So yeah, repent. Okay. I got to stop it. Do you see that puzzled look on my face?

33:53

I'm trying to figure out, dude, what are you trying to say? This can happen to us when we get into discussions like this.

34:03

First time we're hearing something, it's like, what are you saying? We're going to have that happen.

34:08

One thing I noticed is that he was mixing his passages. He actually was talking about Noah and then

34:16

Jonah and mixing them together in multiplied different ways. And you're going to,

34:22

Oh, you're going to see that much more later. Just wait. I wasn't preached by Paul, which is the gospel that we're saved by today.

34:29

It says in the day when God shall judge the secrets of man, according to my gospel by Jesus Christ in Romans 2 16.

34:35

No, no, no. I want you to notice how these guys are doing this together, because those who are watching the video, you just saw that the guy,

34:44

Patrick, who's controlling the screen and the screen just has a Bible software up there. So he could jump to different Bibles.

34:50

He knows where this guy is going and he's already getting Romans chapter two up.

34:56

This is a routine they must do. I did talk to Dr. Matthew and enough to realize he was set up just as I was.

35:04

He was like, Oh, they just asked me to come in and share what the gospel is. Um, and, and so this is what these guys are doing.

35:11

So they're coming into groups like the Christian apologetics group. They see, you know, 10 ,000 people in there and go,

35:16

Oh, these are some people I can contact. So yeah, I removed Patrick right away since that's the practice and you're gone.

35:25

One thing to think about too, is this is, uh, I've heard of it expressed of as freight train theology.

35:31

And what it is is you run people over and you force them to only hear your view.

35:36

It's just won't stop. Well, and that's what, what Greg Coco refers to as a steamroller, right? It's just rolling right over you.

35:44

And, and you, I mean, it would be interesting to take a timer to how long

35:49

I spoke versus these guys spoke and folks, you know, that I could talk for, for a lot. I do it on, on the show here, but I wasn't given a chance to even,

35:59

I mean, I would try to understand their view, ask a question and they would just go off for minutes as you'll see.

36:06

Well, he declared in first Corinthians 15, how that Christ died for our sins and how he died was at the hands of his own people.

36:13

The Jews, they desired a murder to be granted to them instead of Jesus Christ, the righteous and innocent one, the

36:19

King that they rejected. And so they put him on the cross. He died for the sins of the world.

36:25

Now you see the look on my face. That's the look of going, what in the world does this have to do with repentance?

36:31

The answer, nothing, nothing. See what, this is the tactic. I want you to notice what people like this do.

36:37

They take a verse that talks about repentance and talking about God repenting, you know, and then all of a sudden jumping to something completely different.

36:46

And if you're not skilled, you don't pick that up. You don't realize. And Oh, one thing you gotta think about too.

36:56

Hold on. Look, look, I was smelling something cooking. Look at this. I just got a freshly made chocolate chip muffin.

37:02

So go ahead. You can enjoy that because I don't do chocolate. But one thing

37:08

I noticed is that as he's talking about repentance on behalf of God and comparing that with man's repentance, the implication is that God is a sinner and he needs to repent.

37:20

If he's using it the same way, if he's trying to say they all are equal in their content, content, then what he's saying is that God also needed to repent and he's in bad theology land right there.

37:33

Well, go ahead and say what you got to say with your mouth because repentance is he's using it differently when he's speaking of God, where it says

37:43

God repented. That is not the same way as the repentance of us coming to salvation.

37:49

Exactly. And that's the difference. And so now he jumps into from Romans two to first Corinthians 15.

37:55

And I'm sitting there trying to figure out what does this have to do with what the word repentance is? And you may get in a position like that, you know, and just realize when you see this happening,

38:07

I'm doing this because I want you to see how to spot this behavior so that you can, can recognize it.

38:15

Now, Melissa, let me give a pop this up that Melissa says, Andrew, you had so much patience with these guys.

38:21

Oh, Melissa, just wait, just wait. It's going to get worse.

38:28

Let's listen. It's going to get worse. Oh, it is. Trust me. On the third day, risen by the power of God and seen alive.

38:36

So it says, and by him, all that believe are justified from all things by which he could not be justified by the law.

38:42

Moses also says that he came not in the world to condemn the world, but that the world with him might be saved.

38:47

He that believes on him is not condemned. He that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.

38:54

So I'm not seeing that it's part of that repentance. It's part of salvation. Well, okay.

39:00

Before I answer, here's the thing. What he does is going, oh, here's the gospel.

39:05

Here's the gospel. Ignoring that he's taking partial passages that seem to indicate what he believes and then ignore anything else.

39:18

Okay. This is a characteristic you'll see with people like this. They don't actually address the full question.

39:25

They cherry pick the scriptures that they want to support what their claim is. They don't actually deal with the full counsel of God.

39:33

They actually can't handle the full counsel of God. Let's first, let's look at a definition of what repentance is.

39:44

Repentance in Greek is the idea of a changing of mind. Right, right.

39:49

I can agree with you on that. But remember, it says with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. So it's not in the mind that we're receiving

39:55

Christ. It's actually, we can be ready. We can be ready in the mind to receive this. Okay. What is the difference between the heart and the mind?

40:03

Right? I mean, it's not your physical organ that is doing something. No, your heart thinks, you know that.

40:10

You know what your heart's doing, Justin? It's pumping blood. It's not making a decision.

40:17

It's actually not expressing just the heart. It's talking about the deepest part of your being.

40:22

And so it's, I mean, they talk about the bowels of mercy.

40:27

It's talking about the deepest part of your being. And the expression is not actually talking about your heart repents because it's thinking.

40:36

It's talking about the fact that in your spirit, it down inside where God has given you the deepest part of your emotional being, that is where repentance is granted and it comes from.

40:46

It's the idea of your whole body. It's your emotional deepest part of you. But see, the thing you're going to see with guys like this is they're going to play games with words.

40:56

So the words matter, even if they change it up later, as we'll find out. In order to receive and receive the gospel, you have to believe it.

41:05

Receiving is believing. Believing is of the heart. So let's listen. So he's in Romans 10. He ignores Romans 9, by the way, folks.

41:12

Let's look at Mark 1 15. And what you have there is that it is,

41:17

Christ says, the time is fulfilled. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the gospel. Okay.

41:22

So now you're folks, you're looking at this normal. Andrew just brought up a verse where Jesus himself is saying to repent.

41:28

That should be clear, right? Repent ye and believe the gospel. Well, never think that a cultic group doesn't have a good way of reasoning themselves out of things.

41:42

They always have a way to explain things away. Let's listen to his.

41:48

Okay. Yeah. So during this time period, the kingdom of God was at hand. Is the kingdom of God at hand right now?

41:55

Uh, yeah, that's, this is, this is what he's, this is what Christ is instructing. He says, the kingdom of God, sorry, the kingdom of God is not at hand.

42:02

It's actually, uh, the antichrist kingdom is at hand and it's, and it could be any time. What verse is that?

42:09

Now this is a chapter in verse. Yeah. Scripture. Now, now this is the advantage you have in hindsight folks.

42:15

And this is why it's good to review things like this. Even for myself to review it, my answer should have been what verse is that?

42:25

Okay. But when you're in a situation like this, if you're in a debate, which this wasn't technically a debate, but you're in a situation where you have someone challenging you, you get defensive and you're thinking a lot of different things.

42:37

I listened to this a second time and I go, Oh, that should have been my answer. Well, you know why it's good to review that because the next time this happens and someone says something like that to me,

42:46

I have a ready answer. It's going to happen again. I mean, you might as well be ready for it.

42:51

I mean, the atheist arguments are always going to be revolving, you know, these guys, uh, you know, and you hear a lot of the arguments that are common that are coming out of this guy's mouth, you know, and I'm sure we're going to pile up and turn into something way more, um, vitriolic before too long.

43:09

I mean, let's say I didn't notice is how much they were cutting you off. That's going to be interesting.

43:17

Cause later on, they're going to tell me that I'm cutting them off. So yeah, it's, I'm glad you mentioned it. So you can watch for that later on.

43:23

They're going to say that I'm the one interrupting. Okay. So just watch how often they interrupt and cut me off and don't let me say, so they can be the steamroller.

43:32

And then they, they try to project their behavior onto me. So the kingdom of God is not at hand anymore.

43:39

It was for that time. They rejected it and he, um, defeated death. So that was the gospel at that time that it's all the same gospel, but during that time period, forgiveness of sins was not given unto them.

43:50

It wasn't given to them until he died and rose that the forgiveness was given. So this, what he's preaching is the baptism of repentance.

43:58

Okay. So I know I shouldn't keep interrupting because we're never going to get through it, but Jesus offered forgiveness while he was on earth.

44:07

They're saying that forgiveness didn't come until he rose. Is that true? Well, Jesus in, in, uh,

44:13

Mark chapter two says to a man who's lowered through the roof, your sins are forgiven.

44:20

Not when I die, your sins are forgiven. He forgave that man's sins right there, right then.

44:28

Wow. That's, that's terrible theology. Not your, not yours, theirs. I'm, I'm going to go back to where you're at on Mark 1 15.

44:37

The, the gospel proclamation to the, to the Jewish people was a genuine, true promise that the kingdom of God would come if the people of God would truly humbly from the heart, old

44:50

Testament, Moses telling them when you repent, these things will happen.

44:56

What this man has just said is that there was no way that the gospel could be true for the people of Israel and that the, and that the promise was not accurate.

45:07

And that's a bad thinking. Here's the thing. I think the problem is, is that you think they're thinking clearly and I'm not sure they are.

45:15

I have to agree. Okay. I mean, I like what Laura Anderson says here, geez, what planet are they from?

45:22

Well, your head's about to spin, Laura. Don't worry. Because it's going to get worse.

45:27

I keep saying that, but you know, and you could put up Melissa's comment there. These people are so confused and deceived.

45:35

The reality, what you're seeing here is that, you know, it's almost as if, and I can't say that they hold to something because they're so wishy -washy with things.

45:45

It's hard to say, but it seems like this guy is saying that there's a different way of salvation for the

45:50

Jewish people versus the church. Because the message is to the

45:56

Jewish people, this is the gospel, repent and believe. But he's saying that repentance is not part of the message for the, you know, that was for the kingdom at hand, not for now.

46:08

So what needs to be made really clear is when Moses was, was proclaiming that one, one, one would come who would proclaim the gospel.

46:17

He would proclaim all the truth of the word of God in the old Testament, Deuteronomy. When Moses says that we are, that he's going to, that there's one going to be coming greater and pointing to Christ.

46:29

What we have to realize is, is that the one that would come would be the one that would give the true proclamation of the truth of God.

46:38

And that when the people of God, Israel, when they repented, they would be brought back in under that gospel.

46:47

And when Jesus presented the first time in, in Mark 1 15, when he presented himself on earth, he truly presented the true gospel.

46:56

And I'm, I know I'm gonna get on fire about this for a minute, but, but this is so, what's that?

47:02

We don't have that much time to go. Okay. But this is so important that you realize that when people like this are talking, it is dangerous because they're saying like, like Andrew just said, he, he's saying that the people of Israel did not have the gospel.

47:16

And that is not true. Jesus presented the truth of the gospel, repent, and the kingdom is right here.

47:24

Repent. You can have it. And they did not want it. They did not have it in their heart to do so.

47:31

And, and, and I'm, I want to be careful to say, we can't say what he would say, cause you're going to see later, he's going to be a mishmash.

47:38

It's, it's, you know, trying to understand that their theology is like nailing Jell -O to the wall because they're all over the place.

47:44

They're going to criticize me for things in just about three minutes in this video or so, they're going to criticize me of things that they actually say later, you know, but let's, let's play.

47:56

Fulfills his course. Remember it says that in Acts 13. So I believe repenting, repenting, and believing in the gospel, the gospel he was preaching was the gospel of the kingdom because the gospel, the gospel of the kingdom was at hand.

48:07

But remember now it's no longer, it's not, it's, it'll be coming. Jacob's trouble when in Satan's kingdom is implemented, the kingdom of heaven will be at hand again.

48:18

And yes, there will have to be works involved. Repentance is a work. It is?

48:24

You don't think so? Look at Jonah three. So, so he, he just makes a statement, a claim.

48:33

Oh, look at Jonah three. What is repentance? What we, we already defined it, right? It's a changing of mind.

48:39

You don't do that. You, you, it's, that's not something you work at, right? What's that?

48:49

I'm sorry. Laura said, I don't even think they understand themselves. No, I don't.

48:54

I don't. Yeah. Using intuitive confidence. So again, you know, you're, if you're going to say it's a work, it's a work.

49:03

Who does that work? Now I want you to notice that what I'm trying to do is help them at this point, folks. I'm not looking to debate this gentleman.

49:11

I'm not looking to show him how wrong he is. I'm trying to help him. And so I'm asking questions.

49:17

I'm trying to get him to see the issues, trying to get him to see that he's the words can have multiple meanings.

49:23

We're going to see that later on that becomes important. And he doesn't see that. All right, but let's watch.

49:31

We have to do the work, right? Because we're, you're, you're saying we have, we have to repent. No, I would say God has a work.

49:38

Well, I can agree with you that God repents, right? Now notice how he just did that. I'm saying that God brings us to repentance.

49:46

God does the work of repentance on our heart. And what does he do? Oh, I agree that God repents. Totally different meaning, folks.

49:54

We're using repent two different ways. And he doesn't recognize that. Now he's saying God repents.

50:01

Well, if he's saying God repents the way we're talking about it in salvation, that's totally wrong, right?

50:08

That would mean that God has to be a sinner, as Justin said earlier. It doesn't dawn on him that he's using it two different ways.

50:16

Why? When you have guys like this, they're filled with pride, typically. I don't know this man's heart and haven't talked to him long enough, but they're typically filled with pride and they just want to teach.

50:26

They want to tell you everything they have to say. They're not there to learn. And that's what makes it hard. And so at these points is when you start going, am

50:34

I throwing my pearls before swine? And in case these guys end up watching this, that's a scripture verse.

50:42

I just don't, didn't give the citation. I'll let you look that up. You should know the scriptures well enough to know the wording of them, not just the citation.

50:51

More than man, all thrilled scripture. So what do you believe repentance really is for man? Oh, the repentance is us.

50:59

It's a change of mind. Okay. And it's something that we wouldn't be able to do on our own, but God would do it within us.

51:07

And so when you say that it's not for today, I mean, Luke 13, Jesus commands, he basically says,

51:14

Now, let me just back up a second here to see, this is kind of interesting because what his colleague there,

51:21

Patrick was doing is as I'm saying that God brings us to repentance. And I don't know if they even picked up what they did, but they have a passage up there.

51:31

2 Timothy 2 .25, in meekness, instructing those that oppose themselves, if God, preventer will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth, right?

51:42

And now here's the thing, folks, I'm talking, I actually didn't see this the second time through,

51:48

I saw it just now. So had I seen it right there, I could go, there's the verse, the screen.

51:55

I just recognized it just now. And so sometimes that happens. And I'm saying this because, look, if you get into a situation like this, you got a thousand things going through your mind.

52:05

You're not going to get through everything. Yeah. You're going to miss things. And the beautiful thing there is what they have tripped all over is that even in 2

52:17

Tim 2 .25, it says that if, or perhaps that God will per adventure, he doesn't have to do it, but he may bring them repentance, may give them repentance.

52:31

That's incredible. Yeah. So there's the verse. And quickly, I think, I think Patrick read it and went, oh,

52:37

I'm going to move over to that. That's what I kind of think. I don't know, but let's continue.

52:42

And now I'm going to let this go for a bit because there's something that's going to happen at the 20 minute mark. And I want you to listen in about two minutes, he's going to say something that's going to be crucial.

52:52

And then in 20 minutes, he's going to deny saying it. And he's going to tell us to go back and listen to the audio.

52:58

We're going to do just that. He basically says, unless you repent, you will likewise perish.

53:04

That's a good one. I love this one. Right there. Three in verse five.

53:09

Let's let's read it back up a bit. Okay. There were present at that season, some that told him of the

53:16

Galileans whose blood pilot had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, suppose you that these

53:24

Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things. I tell you that you may just scroll up a bit, please,

53:33

Patrick. I tell you, nay, but except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.

53:39

And so he's speaking of the death. The wages of sin is death. So he was talking about their bodies perishing.

53:47

So the perishing of the body doesn't equate to eternal salvation. Hold on.

53:53

So here's the thing. There's many different ways of talking of death, not just that's that's my that's my point is that the perishing of those

54:03

Galileans is that you repent, you shall all likewise perish. He wasn't talking about eternal life there.

54:10

You're saying that if we can avoid physical death? Yes, that's what the scripture says.

54:16

I got more scripture for that. You can. So we could physically never die. No, the wages of sin is death.

54:22

And so we are born to sin, which is why we are dying sooner and sooner. You just said it. And then what that first says is you'll if you don't likewise perish.

54:34

Right. Like Moses. Right. Why did Moses perish before his time? You're speaking of physical death.

54:41

Yeah. Do you believe Moses died before his time or was he he died of a natural cause or do you think that God took him home early because of his sin?

54:49

He took it. He died exactly when God expected him to die. Right. Do you believe that that was a consequence of Moses's disobedience to the

54:57

Lord? Scripture seems to indicate. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So he can and the scripture talks about how we hope that we do not die before our time.

55:06

Right. And he can grant years to life to the righteous man who who lives in accordance to the scripture.

55:12

But we can be cut short. Remember, in first Corinthians five, how they were sleeping with their father's wife and that they would hand it off to the right.

55:22

So but their spirit was saved in the day and the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. So they were killed off early.

55:27

So, yes, I believe that a born again believer, if they want to live in sin continually and not mourning over their sin and accepting correction and accepting that it's wrong.

55:39

But yeah, I believe they can die early for their time. You believe that you can live forever?

55:46

No, I never. No, not in this body. But I see that you said yes. So no, I did not. No, I did not.

55:51

You can listen back. OK, he said I can listen back. Well, we can.

55:56

Let's go. 18 minute and 15 second mark. Let me get to there and let's listen back to exactly what was said.

56:07

Life there. Really? You're saying that if we can, we can avoid physical death?

56:14

Yes. If we repent, you're saying we can avoid physical death.

56:19

What was his answer? Yes. Yes. OK, let's go back now to the 20 minute, 20 minutes, 20.

56:30

Sorry, as I scroll through this. Well, while you're doing that, Hebrews 927, I just put it on the board there.

56:36

And as much as it appointed for man was to die, I mean, your death is appointed by God in eternity past.

56:43

It is appointed. It's not that it is if you do this or this, this, God will say, you know what?

56:50

I was going to do it tomorrow, but I'll give you another week. We'll see. This is the problem when you go back on something like this. There's so much error that was said.

56:57

And this is the thing, folks, what they do. OK, I'm going to I'm going to make an analogy that may get me in trouble.

57:05

What these guys are doing is no different than what Joe Biden is doing right now. Throw so much error at you that by the time you get a chance to respond, it's too late.

57:14

What's he doing? Break every law in the books, just throw things out there. And yeah, you're going to sue and counter it.

57:20

But by the time you do, it's too late because they already got what they wanted. They've moved on. That's what these guys are doing.

57:26

They're throwing so much out there. You can't correct it all. Yeah. So what did he say?

57:32

I asked him whether if somebody could live forever physically.

57:37

He said, yes. Let's see if he's if that's what does does hair with Jesus, the guy hair hair with Jesus.

57:47

Um, does he actually talk? Yeah. Yep. Don't worry. Don't worry.

57:52

Once Dr. Matthew leaves, they all they all start coming in. I never. No, not in this body.

57:58

But I asked you that. OK, let me back up a little bit more. And early.

58:06

But the question is, you believe that you live forever? No, I never. OK. What was my question?

58:13

You believe someone could live forever physically? He says, no, go back and listen.

58:20

So, you know, again, I'll just bring it right back because because this is something you got to recognize. This is why, folks, if you're if you ever know and some of you may not realize when

58:28

Matt Slick comes in and we have debates here, you'll sometimes see him and he'll sometimes warn people that what he's doing is he mutes himself from the group here, the live stream.

58:40

And he's repeating what he's hearing word for word, using his voice software into it, into the computer so he can remember exactly what someone says.

58:50

He does that. Why? Because it matters. What did the guy actually say to my question? Let's re -listen.

58:56

You're saying that if we repent, we can avoid physical death? Yes, that's what this. OK, that's what the scriptures say, that, yes, you can avoid physical death.

59:06

And then he told he told I'm just doing what he told me to do, folks. He told me to go back and listen. But yeah,

59:12

I believe they can die early before their time. You believe that you can live forever?

59:18

No, I never. No, not in this body. But I asked you that. So no, I did not know. So no, he did not know.

59:24

Yes. Whether Patrick is going to talk. Patrick is like, here's what just happened. The guy got caught in a lie.

59:31

He got trapped. This is what you end up seeing when the leader gets stuck.

59:37

Don't worry. The cavalry comes in. Here he comes to save the day. How is he going to do it? Steamroller.

59:43

You can listen back. No, I didn't say that. He wasn't implying that. I know that's what you were implying is one thing.

59:49

I never said it. So. OK, so so he's implying that he said,

59:54

I implied it. I never said it. Yes, you did. It was a direct question. Do you believe that someone can live forever?

01:00:01

Yes. That's what scriptures teach. So you believe someone can physically not die?

01:00:07

Oh, no, I never said that. Well, what do you think not dying and living forever is? You know, he's not thinking clearly.

01:00:15

He's not thinking precisely. And this is the problem that these guys have with someone like me or Matt Slick or someone like that is we try to think precisely.

01:00:23

These guys don't think precisely. And that's where they get trapped. All right. So let's let's listen a little bit.

01:00:29

We're going to see Dr. Matthew and I trying to speak. Then you're going to see me getting ganged up on.

01:00:35

So here we go. And he answered. You were alluding to him as if you were forever.

01:00:42

No, we all we all have a point in time to die. Right. And obviously, God knows that day that we're going to die. But he gives us opportunity to live by to live by his word and the word.

01:00:52

And we're all having a point in time. Now, do you notice he's not answering the question? Right. The question was, do you believe that someone could live forever, which is what he said earlier?

01:00:59

He now denies it. Now he's answering something else. This is the tactic. Said that it's a space of one hundred and twenty years, if I'm not mistaken, according to the scriptures, after Noah's time,

01:01:10

I believe that's what happened. That was the time that took for Noah to build the ark. Whatever it may be the case,

01:01:16

I'm just saying that it's the space. OK, so notice what happens when you give it when he just oh, well, that's what scripture says.

01:01:21

One hundred twenty years. OK, now he's saying that we live one hundred twenty years, folks. Do you know how many people do you know live one hundred and twenty years?

01:01:30

Not too many. But that's how he's arguing it, that we're going to live one hundred twenty years. But anything prior to that is us because of our sin.

01:01:37

We're dying before our time. So his argument is we must live one hundred and twenty years. That's what

01:01:43

God gives to us of life. I don't know what you then do with the fact that, as I point out to him, right.

01:01:50

But that deals with the time of Noah building the ark. That's what one hundred twenty years was the time for them to what? Oh, repent.

01:01:57

That same word in Noah's time. It was one hundred twenty years of him building the ark.

01:02:03

Notice how just he just shoves it off when when he's when he comes up on someone that knows the scriptures better than he he just brushes that off to go on to his talking points.

01:02:14

Twenty years now, I believe, because the the firmament fell. So I believe that we're not as oxygenated as we used to be.

01:02:22

But that's a whole different discussion. A whole different discussion that's not in the

01:02:27

Bible. It doesn't talk about the canopy. One thing

01:02:34

I'll ask you real quick, just so I can ask, maybe he's possibly trying to refer to Genesis six, three,

01:02:42

Genesis six, three, saying, you know, my spirit will not strive with man forever because he is also flesh.

01:02:48

Nevertheless, his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. Is he trying to say that's exactly how long every man has?

01:02:55

I think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying that every man is supposed to live after that moment, supposed to live only one hundred and twenty years, which is a problem because Noah's sons live longer than that.

01:03:06

So the reality is, is it's the one hundred twenty years was it was one hundred and twenty years before the judgment was going to come and he wipes off the flesh from the earth and only those in the ark would survive.

01:03:19

So, yeah, that's that's what it seems to he's arguing. That's what it is. OK, so you notice notice that once Patrick realizes his friends in trouble.

01:03:35

Oh, yeah. Tag. Right. It's a wrestling tag team wrestling.

01:03:42

Right. Fortune just handed tagged his partner because he's now because he just said something that, as I point out, you just denied scripture.

01:03:51

And now it's oh, let me come in. So now you wanted to know if Patrick's going to speak. Here we go. And I also think at this point, either

01:03:57

Patrick was asking for folks to come in or they were just listening and came in. I don't know. But it's it starts getting heated up now.

01:04:05

Real quick before you start. I want to point out what Linda said here in her statement, and I agree with you.

01:04:12

He contradicted himself by saying sin can cut a person's life short. Then saying

01:04:17

God has an appointed time for every man. And here's the point that needs to be made here. And she's right.

01:04:23

I'm a forgiven Christian. God doesn't there is no condemnation.

01:04:29

God doesn't sit there and try to try to stack up my sins and say, oh, well, you could have lived this long.

01:04:36

But, you know, as a Christian, you've messed up too much. So you're done. No, that's not what happens.

01:04:43

Yeah. And the irony of this is he just made the point that he told me I was wrong just moments ago.

01:04:50

Right. If you go back and listen, what was I saying? That it's a way that God knows, like Moses died when

01:04:55

God wanted him to die the moment. Yeah. And he was saying, no, he was saying I was wrong.

01:05:01

Now he's saying I'm right. Oops, because they're wishy washy.

01:05:06

They'll say anything to make the point. But this is where Patrick needs to come in. Patrick is going to say, hey, he's the one that invited me in.

01:05:13

Let's see if we're going to hear from Dr. Matthew at all. Appreciate you joining. I haven't forgotten about you.

01:05:19

Yeah, I was listening to all your talks and I hope

01:05:26

I'm audible. I'm basically from India and Patrick invited me to share, you know, discuss with you all on online.

01:05:43

So I'm not very articulate. I'm sorry if I'm unable to express myself as well as you do.

01:05:50

There are a few things that I, you know, I do believe Jesus Christ is God and I believe in the

01:05:56

Nicene Creed. I'm a former evangelical, a former Pentecostal pastor.

01:06:01

Now I am an Oriental Orthodox believer. You might have heard of Syriac Orthodox. I haven't.

01:06:08

Can you say it again? You're what? Oriental Orthodox. You heard of Orthodox? Yes, Orthodox.

01:06:14

The Orthodox has got two main divisions. One is the Eastern Orthodox and the other is the

01:06:20

Oriental Orthodox. These are the ancient churches. We call ourselves the apothecary churches.

01:06:28

Okay, cool. Before you get into that really quick, though, I wanted to go ahead and just share with Andrew what it is

01:06:33

I believe. Okay, so now I want you to know, so Dr. Matthew was trying to get in.

01:06:39

I didn't know whether he was part of this group or not. So, you know, I'm still trying to gauge.

01:06:45

So what do I do? I'm asking questions. I want to learn what they mean. I still am not sure the word he used.

01:06:50

Sorry. You know, I'll send this video to him. Maybe he can type it out for me and I can research and understand it better.

01:06:57

But now what you're going to see is what these guys did. Now in the first six minutes of this video,

01:07:03

Patrick and Borgen, he'll say his name later. I'll find out how to pronounce it.

01:07:09

But those two guys tell you what they believe. And this is their tactic is to say, this is what we believe.

01:07:18

And so they end up giving their view of the gospel to basically say like, this is what it is.

01:07:26

And this is the steamroller still. And so now they're going to, you know, it's like, well, they didn't do this to me.

01:07:33

They didn't tell me what they believe. So they got to do that because that's, I think maybe their evangelism.

01:07:38

I'm not sure, but let's see. So you know where my heart is. I believe that Jesus is

01:07:43

God, ultimately God the Father, and that Jesus Christ inherited it. The gospel of Jesus Christ is that Jesus Christ was sent to the

01:07:51

Jews. They rejected him. He was crucified, buried, he rose again on the third day, then he was redeemed by many.

01:07:57

That is the gospel that I believe in my heart. I believe in Ephesians 2, 8, when it says, for by grace are you saved.

01:08:06

For by grace are you saved through faith, and then cut yourself into the gift of God, not of work, but of anything that you boast.

01:08:12

So I believe that that God's grace was saved by the Savior, which is Jesus Christ, and also because God is the Savior, and there's no other

01:08:18

Savior but him. And through faith, I believe that that's Jesus Christ's faith, because faith is a fruit of the

01:08:25

Spirit, and we can't actually have that gift until we're baptized with the Holy Spirit and Jesus is living water.

01:08:33

And that not of yourself. So it has nothing to do with me. I'm saved. It has everything to do with the grace of God and him being my

01:08:41

Savior. And yes, because I believe on the name of the Son of God, and it is a gift.

01:08:47

So it's free. It's a free gift. So it's nothing I have earned or I can work for.

01:08:54

In Romans 11, it says, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

01:09:04

So I didn't have to repent to get it, and God's not going to repent and take it away or stop the promise of everlasting life.

01:09:12

And so going back to Ephesians 2, 8, where it says, 2, 9, not of works, lest any man should boast.

01:09:19

So I don't boast on my works. I boast on Jesus, because he fulfilled the law and he did the works. So it's by him that I'm saved.

01:09:25

But I do want to ask you, because I do believe that the only mention of him is Jesus, in Proverbs 30—

01:09:32

Okay, I want you to pick up on what he just said. I'm going to rewind it a bit so you can get that.

01:09:38

But he's going to say that he believes that it's only on the name of Jesus, and this is where this is going to start getting important.

01:09:44

So just listen to that again. 2, 9, not of works, lest any man should boast. So it's by him that I'm saved. But I do want to ask you, because I do believe that the only mention of him is

01:09:53

Jesus, in Proverbs 30, it says,

01:09:58

Who hath descended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fist? Who hath bound the waters in a garment?

01:10:05

Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

01:10:13

Okay, so I'll just read what I believe in. I believe in the Nicene Creed. We believe in one true God, the

01:10:19

Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten

01:10:26

Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, light of lights, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of the same substance with the

01:10:33

Father, and by whom all— You know the Nicene Creed, I think, isn't it? Sorry, I'll just take the name, not to cut you off.

01:10:42

You see what he does, you know, when Dr. Matthew is just trying to recite the Nicene Creed, he cuts him off, because it's not going along with the pattern, with the game plan they have, with what they're hoping for.

01:10:54

I just want the name. What's his name? What is the name that they got after the verse?

01:10:59

It says, What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Do you know the name that it's referring to?

01:11:05

Yeah, it's Jesus, right? Okay, and Andrew, what would you say? Well, okay, so now notice,

01:11:12

I'm going to just say right up front, I haven't studied this passage. I'm like going, okay, you know, it looks like it could be

01:11:19

Jesus. Is it Jesus? I don't know, so what am I going to do? I'm going to ask for context, and I'm going to say,

01:11:24

I haven't studied it out. It sure looks like this would be referring to God and the

01:11:30

Son, however, or God the Father and God the Son. However, here's the thing. They're focusing on the name, and they're going to say that the name for both

01:11:39

Father and Son are the same. It doesn't say that anywhere here, but this is, so I, so just when you watch this,

01:11:46

I want you to know what I'm trying to do now is back them up and say, wait, let me get some context. Let's read this. Let me, I haven't, and folks, you see me do this on the show all the time.

01:11:54

Let's back up. Let's go previous verses. You know, I may not have studied something. It takes study to know this.

01:12:01

I'm pointing out the type of literature it is. They want to ignore all that. They treat all scripture as if it's the same rules of interpretation.

01:12:08

They don't interpret literary poetry different than they would in an epistle.

01:12:14

That's a problem, and so this is where they fail in their interpretation.

01:12:21

This is why, you know, this is why they kind of pity education, maybe, because when you get an education, you know how to properly handle the scriptures.

01:12:29

They would rather remain in their ignorance, so let's see how I handle it. Starting in verse one of that,

01:12:36

I'm going to read the context here. You mean the first sentence or verse one?

01:12:43

I'm looking at, you know, having not done in -depth study on this. Okay, so, you know, it's just the word of God, so they don't, they don't think it takes any study.

01:12:57

Just read it. And whatever it means to me, it means to me. But it doesn't, it doesn't matter what it actually means.

01:13:04

Well, that's what you're going to end up seeing here. I started verse one, the beginning of it, because I don't know the context.

01:13:10

You know, there's passages that if you take it out of its context, it could sound like it's speaking of Christ. But I don't know if that is.

01:13:17

I'd have to look. Yeah, start at one. Let's go. Show it.

01:13:22

See, I'm so tempted to skip over some of this stuff. The words of Agur, the son of Jaka. I'm so tempted to skip over some of this stuff for you folks.

01:13:30

But, you know, I know that they may watch this and be like, oh, look, he cut out things that, you know, that, because he couldn't hear, because we told the truth.

01:13:38

So I'm playing this. I'm playing their words in the entirety. Okay, if we end up going a little long, we do. I don't want to go long, because I got to get up at two in the morning to catch a flight.

01:13:46

But, you know, I, I, I'm good. So if you want to go, where are you going to go?

01:13:52

I'm letting it go. So you hear them in their own words. But I'm trying to point out how to spot these things.

01:13:58

I think I like what Melissa said there. If you want to put that up, they are failing miserably. And they are, you know.

01:14:05

In the prophecy, the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ukal.

01:14:11

Surely I am more brutish than any man and have not the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom nor have the knowledge of the holy, who hath ascended up into heaven or descended, who hath gathered the wind in his fists.

01:14:25

Who hath found the waters in a garment. Who hath established all the ends of the earth. What is his name?

01:14:31

What is his son's name? If thou canst tell. Now, when we look at this thing, you know, looking at it now,

01:14:38

I'm looking at this and saying, okay, well, he's, he's talking about the fact, I mean, they're going to say who, who ascended and who descended.

01:14:45

Well, when did God descend? If this is God, the father that they're saying, what is his name?

01:14:52

And what is his son's name? This must be God, the father. When did God, the father descend then? Right?

01:14:58

You see, they're looking at this and saying, well, the son descended to earth. This is, this is a literary style of wisdom literature where it asks questions that can't be answered.

01:15:11

I'm sorry, I was just going to say, and if you look at the context, he actually threw in the word prophecy.

01:15:17

He actually threw in the word, if you back it up just a little bit at the beginning, he said something that this is a prophecy.

01:15:25

And that's not what the context of this is at this moment. It may end up being prophetic, but he's through, he's thrown that in there to say, hey, look, this is the style.

01:15:36

This has got to be talking about Jesus. It could be, but you have to worry about context first. Yeah. And, and the, it's a prophecy of, of, you know, this person, but it doesn't mean it's a prophecy of Christ, but yeah.

01:15:51

The son of Jack, even the prophecy, the man speak on to it feel even on to it feel and look,

01:15:58

I, you surely have more brutish than any man have not the understanding of a man.

01:16:04

I neither learned wisdom nor have the knowledge of the holy who has ascended up into heaven or descended who has gathered the wind in his fists, who has found the waters in a garment who has established all the ends of the earth.

01:16:19

What is his name? What is his son's name? If thou canst tell every word of God is pure.

01:16:25

He is a shield unto them that put their trust into him.

01:16:31

I don't know. You have to keep moving there. I'm just guessing. He is a shield that put their trust into it.

01:16:38

You got it, right? Close. Yeah. And thou not add thou not unto his words.

01:16:43

Let me reprove thee and thou be found a liar. Okay. That's good.

01:16:48

I think that's good. Yeah. So, so, yeah, so it's, it's talking about, I mean, we can see this talking about the

01:16:55

Lord, just talking about God himself, but it specifically said about God. He said, we can see that where notice he doesn't show how we can see that.

01:17:05

He just makes the claim. We can see that because it's what it means to him. And it says, and what is his son's name?

01:17:14

It's asking questions that no human would be able to answer. So I don't know that it's specific.

01:17:20

This is keeping in mind. This is poetic language. Well, we don't, we don't interpret it literally in that sense.

01:17:28

So he's giving here some, you know, speak himself, stupid man, what he's learned wisdom. He's being challenged by the

01:17:34

Holy one. Right. I mean, I would disagree. I think that, that, that he's literally asking, he says, if thou canst tell, and the reason

01:17:41

I think that he's really, you know, asking that, and he says, if thou canst tell the reason is because the scripture is spiritually discerned.

01:17:49

And a lot of people can't tell what the name of. Okay. Anytime you hear that, be concerned that the scriptures are spiritually discerned.

01:17:57

What is that? That is, I have the spirit and I can interpret because the spirit teaches me apart from the natural reading or the rules of interpretation.

01:18:11

The spirit leads me. And I know that sounds very spiritual.

01:18:17

You know, this is kind of reminds me that the, the idea of the Christological, if you go back and you can, and you can, you know, you can find

01:18:24

Christ in any passage was what we were told is, is in one of the seminaries

01:18:29

I was at is, you know, you can go back and find Christ in any passage. And that's what kind of what they're doing.

01:18:35

And that's part of it. Now they may be going to, to more of an extreme and look, there could, there could be some truth in what they're saying, but you can't just assert truth and say, this is what it means to me.

01:18:47

This is the truth. According to my standard and Andrew Rappaport, if you don't believe it, you're just wrong. No, that's not, that's not, uh, somebody just said it burning in the bosom.

01:18:59

Yeah. I felt it. That's exactly what the Mormon say. They claim, well,

01:19:04

I had a burning in the bosom. So it's right. You know, this sounds very spiritual when people say this and what it is, it is a way of saying you have no right to contradict what they say.

01:19:16

He's right. Because when you say he's wrong, what you're actually doing is saying the spirit of God is wrong.

01:19:23

Yeah. And actually he stopped there and he said, you know, that if you don't, uh, what is it?

01:19:30

Verse nine, lest I be, lest I be full and deny thee and say, who is the

01:19:36

Lord? Or lest I be poor and steal and taking the name of the Lord, your God in vain. And I believe,

01:19:41

I believe as he was going to that. No, no, no. I'm sorry. Verse six. Uh, let, let whoever, um, uh, and thou, thou not unto the, his word, lest he reprove thee and thee be found a liar, you know?

01:19:55

So Andrew, you better believe it or you're a liar. That's right. Yeah. And I'm sure that's why he went down to that verse.

01:20:00

And, and, and this is you, I want you guys to see now for a lot of people, you know what this does when you hear this, you feel defensive.

01:20:08

It's like, oh, it must be something I'm doing wrong. That's the goal. That's how cultics people, cults get people into them.

01:20:16

They, they, this pressure makes you feel like you don't know something. Look at all the scriptures they have to support their claim, but the notice, and we're going to see us later when another guy gets in, they're not going to want to stop and evaluate every scripture verse in its context.

01:20:31

They just want to cite them all. And you're going to see that in a bit. What's the name of the father and the son?

01:20:38

Jesus. Jesus. Okay. So this is where I'm starting to try to figure out what they're saying. What their point is, this is where it's going to start dawning on me.

01:20:46

And I'm going to be like, what? But everybody take a screenshot of the look on Andrew's face. Yeah. That's classic right there.

01:20:53

That's good stuff. That's confusion for you. Here it goes. What's the name of the father then? Jesus. Yeah.

01:21:00

So you think that the father is the son? No, I didn't say that. No. Okay. What's the son's name then?

01:21:05

Jesus. Okay. So the father's name is Jesus. The son's name is Jesus. Yeah. Did you know that two different Jesuses?

01:21:15

Well, him and his father are one, right? Okay. You're supposed to say that.

01:21:24

What's wrong with you? Look, I mean, folks, I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to ask clarifying questions here because I don't want to misrepresent what they're saying.

01:21:34

And it's hard when people have the theology of jello. But this is what you have to do.

01:21:41

And I think it was Melissa earlier that said, I have patience. Well, this takes patience, folks, to deal with people like this.

01:21:49

But you got to take the time to try to understand what they're saying. And I'm asking clarifying questions.

01:21:54

And I'm just asking simple questions. And you're going to see he's going to want to go off on a tangent. And I get it like, no, no, no, let me just.

01:22:00

I need to understand. But they don't do that well. Yeah. One thing to be clear on everybody is you got to think about it this way.

01:22:08

Is it frustrating? And can you get angry and whatnot? Yes. I mean, and I'm going to kind of jump back to the very beginning.

01:22:16

Somebody said some stuff about me, whatever. This is not an enemy.

01:22:22

This is somebody that needs to hear the truth. And what Andrew's trying to do and what we all need to be trying to do is being gracious.

01:22:30

And sometimes you lose temper, you might get a little cranky. But while this person is trying to give his own false understanding,

01:22:40

Andrew's trying to do what I've seen Matt Slick do out at the Mormon temple. And he's trying to be gracious and discuss and debate and have these arguments because they're important.

01:22:53

This man could be lost. And this is a gospel issue or it could be. So this says he's being intentionally circular in what he's saying, and I agree.

01:23:03

You'll see that more. The father is in the son, right? Would you be taking a position of modalism?

01:23:11

We'll take a position in the scripture in Timothy where it says there's one God. Okay. I don't think he understands what modalism even is.

01:23:17

Okay. So this is the problem is he doesn't know the heresies to know if he's a heretic.

01:23:23

But it shows the lack of because these guys think they're so spiritual because they just look at the scriptures.

01:23:31

Yeah. So does Satan. But you're just so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.

01:23:39

You went to seminary. They will say that I study man, they study God. Okay.

01:23:47

They're going to say that later. But I'm trying to understand his points here. What I'm trying to do is see, okay, what teaching is he?

01:23:57

Because this is where I'm starting to realize, okay, these guys are kind of cultic. Where are they at? What's their positions? Now you're going to see

01:24:03

Dr. Matthew try to answer. And this guy's just going to shut him down because it's like, nope, we're talking.

01:24:10

You'll see that rudeness in a second. Watch. And one mediator between God and man. So we have God, right?

01:24:15

The father, the word, and the Holy Ghost. Let me finish. Let me finish.

01:24:21

I believe that there is one guy. Okay. Do you notice that? I asked the question. He's going off on a tangent, avoiding it.

01:24:28

And I'm pointing that out. This is what Greg Coco would talk about with a steamroller.

01:24:34

You establish rules, right? I asked a question. You're not answering my question. I'm trying to establish rules.

01:24:40

You end up having to shame them as I will later before leaving. But that's what you do with a guy like this.

01:24:45

Establish the rules. Now, sometimes you have to establish a lot clearer and that's helpful. But what I'm doing here is trying to say, hey, you're not answering the question.

01:24:55

And he doesn't care. God is the father, the word, and the Holy Ghost. And that mediator is the son of God, the man

01:25:02

Christ Jesus. And so just as John's father, did you know the name of John the

01:25:07

Baptist's father? Are you aware what the name of John the Baptist's father? One reason that people tend to avoid direct questions is when they know they don't have an answer.

01:25:15

And so they go off on long diatribes, never getting to it, hoping that the audience forgets what the question is.

01:25:21

So I'll let you answer your question directly, sir. I said that. Okay, so I explained exactly why, right?

01:25:28

I'm explaining why because I want his audience to know what he's doing. That is the shaming. I'm saying the answer.

01:25:35

And the reason people do this is because they don't have an answer. And he's only answered it directly. By the way, if he wants to know the name of John the

01:25:42

Baptist's father, it's called Zachariah. Yeah, but here's the thing. I don't know why he would do that.

01:25:48

Well, here, I'll tell you why. What they do is they want you to go off on a tangent so that the audience forgets the question.

01:25:55

I'm not doing that. I'm going to get right back to the question he never answered. Go ahead.

01:26:03

Okay, what I want to point out real quick, Dr. MacArthur agrees with Andrew Rappaport in this section because Andrew had said, this is something only

01:26:11

God can reveal. And Dr. John MacArthur said the question here... You're talking about Proverbs 30?

01:26:17

Yes. If he's trying to make a big deal about this, the question here, Dr. MacArthur says, the question can only be answered by the revelation from God.

01:26:28

It's not something that man knows intuitively. Which is what the very next verse said of that.

01:26:35

Exactly. Okay. Go for it, brother. Yeah. So, I mean, that's the thing there.

01:26:44

And this is why, folks, I tell you, you want to challenge guys like this. You want to do apologetics. Just learn hermeneutics.

01:26:51

Learn how to look at the scriptures. Because when you know that, you can handle anything by just going, okay, let me look at what the scriptures say.

01:26:58

You know? KT says she looked at hers too. I don't have an answer for that.

01:27:06

No, I don't. No, I do not. Let me back it up a bit here. Just off on long diatribes, never getting to it, hoping that the audience forgets what the question is.

01:27:17

I answered your question directly, sir. I said the name of the Father is Jesus. My question was, do you believe in modalism? I don't have an answer for that.

01:27:24

See, now, do you see? I gave you a direct question. I gave you a direct answer. I answered the wrong question.

01:27:30

My question was, do you believe in modalism? He goes off answering something else and says, I answered your direct question.

01:27:36

So what did I have to do? No, let me restate the question, right? You didn't answer the question, right?

01:27:44

Humble Clay pulls out a really good one. Proverbs 24, or 26, 4 to 5. Do not answer a fool according to his folly unless you're just like him.

01:27:53

He's trying to get you to go down this path. You need to answer a fool according to his folly, in other words, expose it to him.

01:27:59

This is what you're doing. Andrew is one of the masters at it. I didn't fall for the bait that he wants going down this.

01:28:07

Folks, that's why in situations like this, you have to listen to what they're saying, but then ask, why are they saying it?

01:28:16

And that's what I was doing. And then I even exposed why he's doing it. So he doesn't even know what modalism is.

01:28:24

OK, so I'm going to back up a bit so you can hear that. Long diatribes, never getting to it, hoping that the audience forgets what the question is.

01:28:31

So I answered your question directly, sir. I said the name of the father is Jesus. My question was, do you believe in modalism?

01:28:37

I don't have an answer for that. No, I don't. No, I do not believe in modalism. And we like to respond. No, I don't have an answer for that.

01:28:44

No, I don't. I don't believe in modalism. Well, do you not have an answer? Do you not believe it? No, if you catch it, the hair guy.

01:28:52

I can't read what his name is. So I'm just going to use Patrick. Patrick said in the background, no, we don't.

01:28:59

And then he just grabbed a hold of that and said, oh, there's my answer. Yep, that's the tag team.

01:29:05

That's the tag team. Do you believe in modalism? I don't have an answer for that.

01:29:11

No, I don't. No, I do not believe in modalism. And we like to respond. Do you not believe that the name of the father is

01:29:18

Jesus? OK, so this is where what you see them do is we want to reply with scripture. So it's only scripture we should be hearing.

01:29:23

And now it's that. Let's get back to what we want to talk about. Right. Why? Because, well, he just got knocked out the second time he went down for the count the second time in this in this ring here.

01:29:37

And again, his partner had to pick him up and help him out. But don't worry, he's got friends coming in.

01:29:45

You see it. There we go. It's going to get lively. What did

01:29:50

Melissa say there? Yeah. Like I said, Andrew is a patient fisherman or a fisher of men.

01:29:57

I was trying. I was trying. But we'll see. I'll let you guys decide if I lost my patience at the end or not.

01:30:04

I'll tell you at the end. No, it's the father. OK, so when they baptized in the name of the father and of the son and of the

01:30:13

Holy Ghost, what name did they go to baptize? What? The name.

01:30:18

OK, so so when you get confused, Justin, you're saying the idea that and watch.

01:30:24

I'm going to and I'll play this part because I'm going to try to explain to him that the word name has more meanings than just what you call somebody.

01:30:33

To do something in the name of someone has the idea of a reputation. OK, when you do when you're, you know, you know, if you if you're for me growing up, you know, if I was a

01:30:49

Rappaport, that didn't mean that that's my last name. It meant that I represent the family.

01:30:54

Yeah, that is more. And I'm going to try to explain that. But if it doesn't fit what they want.

01:31:02

Then they're just going to move on from there. And that's that's what you're going to end up seeing. So this is going to get entertaining.

01:31:10

You're going to see the you're going to see the other guy come in. And yeah, here we go. So the name father, you have it.

01:31:18

What is that name? Of the father, the son and the

01:31:23

Holy Ghost. So in the book of Acts and when they were baptized right in the scriptures. I'm going to try to understand your position.

01:31:30

Sure, sure. You're claiming that now I want you to notice what I'm doing. Again, I'm trying to back them up. I want to understand.

01:31:36

Right. So listen to me trying to understand their position. Try to make them explain it so I can hear it out.

01:31:43

That the name of the father. Is the same as the name of the son.

01:31:48

But are you saying there are two separate distinct persons? Well, first of all, first of all,

01:31:54

I don't know because I don't think that the father is a person that I believe that God is a spirit.

01:32:00

OK, I got to stop it there. OK, because he doesn't believe that God is a person.

01:32:09

Let me go to a point after I got off the show. This is a ways afterwards.

01:32:18

Let's see, because he's going to be talking about the father and the son. And he's actually going to claim they are the same person.

01:32:27

And then he's going to catch himself. Just watch this. This was later on. With his fist, who had bound the waters in Garment.

01:32:34

It's the same person there. You know, same name. Same person. Same name.

01:32:40

Same person. Because he told me he doesn't use the term person because that's not in the Bible.

01:32:46

Right. Understand your position. Sure, sure. You're claiming that that the name of the father.

01:32:56

Is the same as the name of the son. But are you saying there are two separate distinct persons?

01:33:03

Well, first of all, first of all, I don't know because I don't think that the father is a person that I believe that God is a spirit.

01:33:10

And I believe that the son is a man. But also God is in that man. So pause.

01:33:18

I got to ask a question. So when I die, my body goes in the ground.

01:33:24

Does that mean that I cease to exist because I'm no longer a person? Yeah. I mean, this is where I could have gotten into.

01:33:31

I know. Of a person is and personality and things like that. But that becomes, you know, the real issue now that I'm seeing is there's an issue of understanding the

01:33:41

Trinity for these guys. Oh, yeah, absolutely. The father is in the son.

01:33:47

Okay. That means he's not God. That God is in him. Very different.

01:33:53

Very, very different. Now, is this a cross of modalism and pantheism? I'm not.

01:33:59

I actually called up Matt Slick right after this and said, hey, this is what was going on.

01:34:04

And he thinks this sounds like one oneness. And so I'm just not sure.

01:34:10

And I couldn't get enough out of them because they wouldn't answer questions for me to really be able to figure out clearly what they hold to.

01:34:17

Now, here's where our dear friend, Dr. Matthew is going to get shut down and he's going to end up leaving and all their friends are going to come in.

01:34:25

But, you know, you're going to see that they don't want any because all Matthew does, Dr. Matthew does is provide, you know, the creeds that they should hold to that disagree with what these guys are saying.

01:34:39

And that's the issue is they're just there. He has a different style than I do, granted.

01:34:46

And unfortunately, we didn't get to see his style long enough that to see what would have happened with just reciting the creeds to these guys, how they would have responded.

01:34:56

But we'll see them shut him down. Just hold on a second here, sir.

01:35:01

Andrew and I are sorting this out. Yeah, well, personhood doesn't have to do with being a physical being, if that's what you're thinking.

01:35:08

Well, God is not a person. He's a spirit. So I just like to use the words of the scripture. No, notice he just ignored it.

01:35:13

Right. What is personal? He just ignores it. I'm going to use the I'm going to use the words of scripture.

01:35:18

That sounds spiritual, doesn't it? It sounds so spiritual. And yet it ignores.

01:35:24

And he's he provided, as you've seen throughout this, he's done a lot of things that aren't in scripture. Talk about to use the words of scripture.

01:35:31

That's not in there. Because so when God says, let's make man in our own image.

01:35:36

And Genesis is I mean, he's just butchered that because, you know,

01:35:43

God didn't come down and say, well, I'm I'm I'm going to be a person now and I'm going to put on flesh so that I can give you flesh.

01:35:51

Yeah, that's a that's a bad argument. It's a bad argument if that was the argument, because the father is a spirit and couldn't do that.

01:35:59

Yeah, but this is this is a fruitcake salad really bad. Yeah, well, let's listen more.

01:36:07

Like to use the words of the scripture. I let my words be few. I don't want to be found a liar. No, he does not.

01:36:13

Yeah, I know. I was leaning back and I couldn't stop that because I'm not going to rewind that again for you.

01:36:19

I'm so sorry. That's classic. But wait, because we're going to see I mean, at this point, folks, who has spoken more during this thing?

01:36:27

Him or I hear I mean, it's just it's classic. He's going to have his words for you.

01:36:34

So that he's not a liar. Well, we've already proven that he's he's disagreed with himself three times so far.

01:36:42

Right. I can't stop laughing. So, you know, it's just what is it

01:36:52

Melissa said there? I like how he said that he likes to use the words of scripture. Unfortunately, he uses them out of context.

01:36:59

So yeah, that's that's very good. Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:37:05

I'm trying to stop. Okay. Well, God is not a spirit. So I just like to use the words of the scripture.

01:37:13

I let my words be few. I don't want to be found a liar. I just let the God's Word be true. Remember what it said when we were just reading impact in Proverbs.

01:37:21

Okay. Facebook user says Fauci would be proud. Oh, I don't know who

01:37:29

Facebook. You never put that up there. And maybe Brandon, I don't know.

01:37:34

But that that there's the the comment of the night right there. Fauci would be proud.

01:37:41

Even Fauci cannot talk himself in circles as good as this guy can. Oh, that's great.

01:37:50

Every word of God is pure. So if God is never referred to as a person, I'm not going to refer to him as a person.

01:37:56

I refer to him as the spirit of God, the father. Mm hmm. Do you understand what I'm saying there?

01:38:01

I'm just trying to be disciplined. So so you want to see his spirit? Fine. Is he a separate and distinct spirit from the father and the son?

01:38:11

There is one God and one mediator, the scripture says. I'll try this a third time. You seem to be avoiding a simple direct.

01:38:17

Not separate. No, they're not separate. Not separate. Okay. That's more because they're okay. See, notice that I asked the same question, folks.

01:38:24

This is the tactic to do with people like this. Do not be distracted by what they're saying when you ask a question.

01:38:32

When you ask a question, you need to keep going back to it. So there's there are times, folks, in debates or in discussions like this where I start counting after about four or five times of asking a question,

01:38:41

I'll say, okay, this is the sixth time I'm asking this seventh time asking the eighth. I've actually done that in a debate where I got up to 22, 23, 24.

01:38:52

The guy finally at 26 answered. Why? Because I just, I literally just said the exact same thing and just giving the number.

01:38:59

Okay. This is the sixth time I'm asking the seventh time I'm asking the eighth and just asking the same exact question that exposes to the audience watching, or at least to the person you're talking to that they're not answering the question.

01:39:11

I had to ask it three times. That's why I mentioned this is three times. I'm asking because I'm starting to count it off to show that I'm asking the same question.

01:39:19

He's not answering. So then then then it's modalism, right? No, it's not modalism.

01:39:25

Separate forms. It's scripture. Well, you have, you have the father. No, it's not modalism.

01:39:30

It's just scripture. Give me the scripture that says that this, that God, the father is in the son.

01:39:37

You see, they're there. What they're doing is they're jumping all over scripture and saying it's the scripture, but they're taking everything out of context to make it say what they're trying to make it say.

01:39:48

And these verses notice that now with what he's saying now notice he doesn't provide any scripture for that.

01:39:53

He tells me I should just give scripture, but he doesn't provide any for what he's just saying because there is no scripture to support that.

01:39:59

The son and the son is in the father. Well, they're not, they're, they're not distinct. Is that what you're saying? Well, yeah, there is a distinction between the father and the son, but they are one.

01:40:09

Absolutely. Are they separate? They're never separate. No, never separate. The father is in the son and the son is in the father.

01:40:15

When Jesus is baptized and he's physically standing before John, you hear the voice of the father and the spirit, the

01:40:22

Holy Spirit descending as a dove. Yes. They're obviously separate from one another. Well, do you believe that when he was baptized, the father was in him as well?

01:40:30

Notice he never answered the question, right? There is the verse that answers the question of Jesus' baptism of the separation of the three persons of this, of the spirit of the

01:40:40

Godhead. And what does he do? Just ignores it. Just move right on. That's what they do.

01:40:46

When you see that, that's exactly what they do. Right? Because the verse didn't, the scripture doesn't support what he just said.

01:40:54

That they're not distinct. Exactly. He's omnipotent, right? He's God.

01:41:01

Was he with the father and the son when he got baptized and in the sky at the same time? I'm thinking that the struggle you're having is maybe just not understanding.

01:41:13

There's no struggle. I'm just asking you a direct question as well. Here's the thing. He says there's no struggle. There is a struggle for him because he's all over the map on things.

01:41:22

He's not being clear with it. And now what the irony is, watch what he's going to say to me.

01:41:29

He's going to say that he's asking me a direct question. I'm not answering it. But I admit the question is because I don't understand his question because it doesn't make sense in what

01:41:40

I had been talking about. He's using it in a different manner. And I'm trying to put it in the context that I had said, but I don't think that's how he means it.

01:41:48

And I'm trying to understand that having is maybe just not understanding. There's no struggle.

01:41:53

I'm just asking you a direct question as well, sir. Was the father in the sun at the same time? So you don't believe that the father is in the sun?

01:42:00

No, because that would be saying that somehow they are that they're not

01:42:06

God. That there's multiple gods. Yes. So there's one being that we call

01:42:12

God in three separate indistinct. You don't want to use personalities. Fine.

01:42:18

Go to the scripture. That's it. You just go to the scripture. Yeah. What's up, brother? Okay. So now what you have is you have he gets in trouble again.

01:42:29

So it's that he just tagged for his other guy, Gabby, or whoever that is, has him come in.

01:42:35

And now you're going to start seeing them get a lot more aggressive. And I'm going to let this play through a bit so that you can see this.

01:42:43

There's about 25 minutes left. So we're probably going to go into Anthony time for those who enjoy Anthony time.

01:42:49

But we'll, we'll see. Go ahead and get my report of the gospel. I believe that Jesus, which is the name of they see,

01:42:55

I should say, I want to say this before this guy can see what this is the common thing. They all did each one of these guys do.

01:43:01

I want to get my report of the gospel. Okay. And they each have the same kind of argument. So you're going to see this guy come in and do the same thing that that's supposed to shut me down and they can go.

01:43:12

So here we go. And also of the side that he came onto his own, his own received them. Not, he was condemned to the cross because he was rejected by his own people.

01:43:20

The Jews, he was crucified for the sins of the world. He was buried, rose again on the third day. And he was seen by over 500 witnesses.

01:43:26

And the reason why I'm going to go to him, because I believe on that gospel as Romans one 16 says, for I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to whosoever believe it, or whoever believes the

01:43:36

Jew first and also to the Greek. So, yeah, I believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. And I believe that the name of the father is

01:43:41

Jesus because he just said, I come in my father's name when you receive me, God. So he came in his father's name. Definitely came in his father's name.

01:43:47

What is the name of the son of Jesus? And he came in his father's name. What was the name of the son and the father?

01:43:53

Amen. Now, what do you notice what's missing from that testimony of the gospel message he just presented?

01:43:59

There's no talk of personal sin. You see, it's just this, you know, abstract explanation of the gospel without any personal notion of personal sin.

01:44:11

That's missing in each of their statements of the gospel as if Jesus died for sins. But yours, it's amorphous.

01:44:20

It's it's amorphous. Correct. I just want to point that out. They baptize in the name of Jesus.

01:44:25

Every time. And as they always baptize in the name of Jesus, that's the name of the father and the Holy Ghost. What we're having here,

01:44:32

Bjorn, is that you guys are spiritually discerned and don't understand the scripture. Now, by the way, he said that in every time in acts, they baptize in the name of Jesus.

01:44:39

There is someone in Acts 19 that got baptized in the name by John's baptism and then later got baptized in the in the baptism of Jesus.

01:44:49

Just saying. So he makes a statement. He's not always right. So that's why they're not being fed by this

01:44:54

Holy Spirit to give them the understanding. So I believe that gospel, sir. Do you believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world?

01:45:01

He was and he was buried and he rose again on the third day. He was witnessed by over 500 people. Yeah. So let me ask you, is the name of Jesus?

01:45:10

Yes, sir. OK, so now I want to point out what I just did there. What this guy did,

01:45:16

Gabby, was to say something that is biblically correct and to get you to agree.

01:45:21

And you'll have people that do this to you. They say something that's right to get you to agree with them.

01:45:27

And what that does to a person is get them thinking, oh, these guys are right. They're making what they're saying is true.

01:45:34

This is the way every cultic group does. I mean, the Mormons do this. Jehovah's Witnesses do this. That's a ploy that they do to get you to agree to some things so that there's the agreement.

01:45:46

And then they'll go off on the air. What did I do? I'm not.

01:45:51

I answered the question. Yes. Let's get back to the issue of disagreement. Right. I'm not going to let them fall.

01:45:57

You know, I'm not going to fall for the ploy of agreement so they could then go on to the next point and slowly get me down the line where they think

01:46:04

I'm going to agree, agree, agree, and then buy into their lies. So what do I do? I agree with what was scriptural and then go right back to what's the issue of disagreement.

01:46:15

And this is where it starts getting heated up a bit. He said he would send that. He said the comforter in my name, right?

01:46:21

In John, he said, I'll send that comforter in my name. And he also said in John, he said that he will manifest.

01:46:27

He told the father he's going to manifest his name. It says the father or the spirit's name is

01:46:34

Jesus. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit shed his blood for you? Notice I asked the question, show me the verse where the

01:46:43

Holy Spirit's name is Jesus. Do you believe totally different discussion? Do you believe that the

01:46:49

Holy Spirit shed his blood for you? Yeah. I specifically heard him say that. Yeah. And the answer is no,

01:46:54

I'm going to say that. Right. Goes totally out. So this is where I'm going.

01:47:01

What is their view of the Trinity? Yeah. It's such a hodgepodge. Okay. And so, you know, but what does he do?

01:47:10

Just goes off to a totally different thing. And you'll hear me answer. No, no.

01:47:15

Okay. No. Well, let's go to scripture and go ahead, guys. Okay. Yeah. I mean, let me just notice. I want to point out.

01:47:21

Do you see how Patrick Patrick's driving the show there? Patrick's the one. Okay, guys, you guys go.

01:47:26

So, so they're the, let me explain it this way. When, when you're in a jujitsu gym, there's a guy known as the bulldog.

01:47:34

I mean, there's a guy who's the hammer. You know, he's the one that's going to be tough and he's going to, you know, so you always have one guy in the gym and, and the professor will always, it's like just when someone needs to learn a lesson.

01:47:48

Hammer comes down. Right. You, you just send the bulldog out. He takes care of it. Okay. So, so, so Patrick is the guy that sits in the back and these are his bulldogs.

01:47:59

It's just like, okay, guys go. It's already, they know where they're going to go. How do I know that? Cause he's already turning to the passages that these guys are going to go to.

01:48:07

It's a set scheme. They know what they're doing. And, and the fact that with Dr.

01:48:13

Matthew, with me, they invite people in one at a time and then, you know, they all braid them and get on them and ambush them.

01:48:20

That's a tactic. The, the, the black Cuban Israelites do the exact same tactic. What I was going to ask you is, is the program they're using?

01:48:29

I see Call of Duty MP4 is the, is the program they're using just something they've set up where they just take passages and throw it in there so that they can quickly reference.

01:48:38

No, you're seeing, this is, Call of Duty was the name of the show. This is just some

01:48:45

Bible software that they have. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. They just know their routine well enough.

01:48:52

Like every, like, just like black Cuban Israelites know their routine. They do the same thing. Or that, or that.

01:48:58

So that name that you all was talking about, that that's happening is the name of Jesus Christ. This may be very fundamental.

01:49:05

Okay. I'm going to stop there. What was the name? Justin, read that name. What's the, what's the name there? Name of Jesus Christ.

01:49:11

Yeah. It doesn't say Holy Spirit, does it? No. Yeah. Huh. Wow. You just let me finish up.

01:49:18

John 5, 43. Okay. So you see what they're doing? And I'm going to point this out.

01:49:24

He finds one spot name of Jesus Christ has to jump somewhere else and ignore the immediate context.

01:49:30

Because I'm actually going to back it up and read the whole thing. Acts 2, 38. And Melissa says it's very staged.

01:49:37

Yes. It's very staged. That's the whole thing I'm pointing out to you because you may get pulled into groups like this, and I want you to be able to see that.

01:49:44

Acts 2, 38. Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized. Every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

01:49:51

And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Notice the distinction. You get baptized in the name of Jesus.

01:49:58

Then the Holy Spirit is a gift you get afterwards. So it doesn't say the

01:50:03

Holy Spirit is doing, you're baptized in the name of the Spirit, which is the thing they're trying to prove. This verse, if he kept reading, says something that is the opposite to what he's saying.

01:50:14

It actually would prove my point that there's a distinction. What does he do? He just reads what he wants to.

01:50:21

Name of Jesus, jump to another verse. This is what you're going to start seeing them doing. Rapid fire. They're not going to let me speak and just rapid fire giving verses.

01:50:29

They won't look at the context. And we could stop at each one of these. We could spend another two hours and look at the context of each one and show how they don't say what these guys say, but they don't want to look at context.

01:50:40

They just want to rapid fire, I think it was Melissa who said stage, in this staged way to be able to just go through this to fool somebody.

01:50:48

This is what cults do. John 543. Before we jump around, let's look at context.

01:50:57

What baptism was that that you just mentioned? That was the baptism in Matthew 28.

01:51:03

Notice he didn't answer. Okay, do you see that? I tried to stop him to say, let's look at the context.

01:51:09

Let's stay with one verse, examine the verse, look at the context. What was the type?

01:51:14

What was the baptism? Was it a spirit baptism or water baptism? That's my question. Notice he doesn't even answer.

01:51:20

It was baptism. Move on. Doesn't want to answer. Why? Because he can't.

01:51:26

Because this is what cults do. So notice they got to get their thing out.

01:51:51

You're being railroaded. Yeah. Yeah. Because what am I trying to do, folks? I'm trying to stop him with each one to get the context.

01:51:58

Because if we stop and look at the context of each one of these, we end up seeing this doesn't say what they say.

01:52:03

But that doesn't work. So at this point, this is where I'm starting to go. Okay, my time on this show is going to be ended pretty soon.

01:52:10

Okay. And it was longer than I thought. But I'm now going to kind of start tuning out a bit and going, okay,

01:52:18

I'm going to be less likely to try to understand their position and try to see if they're even able to be reasoned with at all.

01:52:25

So 238, it says, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the

01:52:34

Holy Ghost. Okay. No matter what was happening, they were baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. That was the name that they were referring to.

01:52:41

John 5, 43. So I want you to see what they did there. What it is is that the name is

01:52:46

Jesus. So be baptized in the name of Jesus compared with the name. They're using the word name from Matthew, the name of the

01:52:55

Father, Son, Holy Ghost. They're using the word name and saying that's the same thing.

01:53:00

Okay. This is what's called a fallacy of equivocation. How do I know that they're wrong? Because their arguments are illogical.

01:53:07

That makes it invalid because the word name has more than one meaning lexically.

01:53:13

So they're ignoring the lexical meanings of the word name, one being reputation and one being what you call somebody.

01:53:20

And they're putting it as the same. So the fallacy of equivocation is when you have something that has the same word that has two different meanings, but you use it the same way.

01:53:31

That's what they're doing. The word name has two different meanings. They're ignoring one of the meanings saying it has just one meaning and using it that way.

01:53:39

That is illogical, making the argument invalid. And guess what? God is not invalid.

01:53:46

God is logical. So God's arguments will be logically valid. Theirs are not.

01:53:52

Therefore, they're wrong. But we'll continue. What were you going to say, son?

01:53:58

Yeah, I was going to say that in the Greek concordance strong, for example,

01:54:03

I'll just throw one out here. Speaking of the name, it's anoma. And it's the Greek word anoma.

01:54:09

And it actually is talking about the authority or character of. So it's not speaking of the actual name as in the personal name, but it's the authority or character of.

01:54:23

And you're speaking of Matthew 28, 19. Yes. No, no, no.

01:54:29

Acts 2, 38. Okay, let's look at the... Let's do this real quick. Acts 2, 38.

01:54:38

Let's even see if it's the same word in the Greek. Yeah. I'm just curious.

01:54:44

I haven't done this. So let's see. Yeah. And as you're going through, when you're getting there, and if you think about it, you know, in the strongest concordance, and I know that there's...

01:54:55

I don't know if there's the same exact word in the Greek. Is it? Okay. And so, you know, which, you know, the word itself has several different senses to it.

01:55:06

It's a person, but it also could be a title, a category, reputation, which is the way it's being used in one of the ways.

01:55:14

Exactly. And that's what I'm trying to point out. So let's see. I'll make this point to them, or at least try to.

01:55:21

I come, I am come in my father's name, and he received me not. If another shall come in his own name, him he will receive.

01:55:29

So in Philippians, actually Hebrews 1, which says,

01:55:35

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself heard our sins, and sat down in the right hand of the majesty on high, this is referring to Jesus Christ, being made so much better than the angels, as he had by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

01:55:52

So by inheritance, he obtained a more excellent name. Now, I'm going to stop here, just point out what they're going to claim is that Jesus inherited the name, or sorry, the person we know of Jesus, the son, inherited the name

01:56:07

Jesus from the father. And it's a more excellent name than the angel.

01:56:13

So the angel's name is not as great as Jesus. Now, here's by the way, one of the things that is at the beginning of the show, I should have mentioned, they claim that his name is

01:56:21

Jesus, not Jesus. It's an amazing thing that his name is an

01:56:26

English name, because the English language is only a few hundred years old.

01:56:34

I mean, English, English, the English language, I think the earliest founding of it's about 1400s.

01:56:41

So what was his name before English, right? I mean, it's really quite interesting because they hold to a

01:56:47

King James Bible. That's where the word of God is. So it is kind of funny because they actually said it's not

01:56:53

Jesus, it's Jesus. And that's quite interesting.

01:56:59

It's all his name is Jesus. And yet that wasn't what he was called when he walked the earth.

01:57:04

No one called him Jesus because that wasn't because that's an English name.

01:57:11

Yeah, it wouldn't be Yeshua or anything like that. Correct. Two, nine.

01:57:19

It says, in being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

01:57:26

Wherefore, God also has highly exalted him and given him a name. Okay. I have to admit the look on my face is, okay, when are you going to be done talking?

01:57:35

Right? That's the, you're not letting me get a word in. And there's really no purpose in me being here.

01:57:41

I'm just figuring out how am I going to leave at this point? Which is about every name that in the name of Jesus, every knee should bow things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth.

01:57:50

And that every tongue language should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the

01:57:57

Father. So God the Father gets the glory. Mm -hmm. So in Acts 4, 12, it says,

01:58:05

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, and whom

01:58:11

God raised from the dead, even by him, doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set in knot of you builders, which has become the head of the corner.

01:58:19

Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved.

01:58:26

So it was given to men. It's a heavenly name. Why is it? Because Matthew 1, this is where Joseph got the name from an angel of the

01:58:34

Lord. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying,

01:58:41

Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the

01:58:46

Holy Ghost. It continues to say, and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name, capital

01:58:52

J -E -S -U -S, for he shall save his people from their sins. They make a big deal of it being in all capitals, by the way.

01:58:59

You notice that comes in later after I was off the show. But yeah, just a point. Now all this was done, it might be fulfilled, which was spoken of the

01:59:07

Lord by the prophet saying, behold, a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name

01:59:13

Emmanuel. They shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted as God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep, did as the angel of the

01:59:18

Lord had been, and took unto him his wife, and knew her, not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name

01:59:25

Jesus. So that name was inherited, was God the Father's name, which is

01:59:32

Jesus. That's why we believe that Jesus is God the Father. And in Zechariah— Now I'm just going to point out, I've been pointing it out, but I'll point it out again.

01:59:39

Notice they don't want to look at the context of any one of these passages. They just grab a verse, grab a verse, grab a verse, grab a verse, slam them all together, and say, see, this proves my point.

01:59:49

Yeah. Not once do they want to look at the context of these things to see that the word name is being used two different ways in many of these passages, and they want to ignore that.

01:59:59

Well, you know that every time they've pointed this out, I've went, I've tried. I don't know that I've done it every time, but it's always anoma, and it's always, you know, in the multiple complex abilities here to discern what that word name means.

02:00:18

And in 23— So you missed the point. You're going to the Greek. The Greek doesn't matter.

02:00:25

We have the inspired King James Bible. Well, even in the inspired King James in verse 23, his name is what?

02:00:33

His name is what? Okay, let's go ahead and say, you have to baptize in the name. What is it in 23,

02:00:39

Matthew 1, 23? His name will be called Emmanuel. So we have to do it that way. Yeah, I did think about that one earlier.

02:00:45

Yeah. His name's Emmanuel. That's not what it's called. You know, and it's interesting.

02:00:51

They skipped over that part, right? I mean, he shall be called Emmanuel. But the thing that's interesting, because I mean, they'll say rightly probably, that just means

02:01:02

God with us. Okay. Go ahead.

02:01:07

John says, if Jesus is the father, who is he praying to? Yeah. Okay, wait, before we go any further, logic is here.

02:01:17

Whatever they're at is way on a higher level. Is way out there. It's in outer space.

02:01:23

Yeah. It's up there with flat earthers. The thing is, is that, you know, they're ignoring the context of each of these passages.

02:01:33

Yeah. And this is what you have people do. And I keep pointing out, so you guys see this, all right?

02:01:39

Because this is what happens. All right, let's go on. 14, nine.

02:01:46

We can read the context of this if you want to. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth. In that day. Do you notice he said, we could read the context if you wanted to, but we're not going to.

02:01:55

Of course I want to, but he's not going to. He hasn't on any of the others. There'll be one

02:02:01

Lord in his name, one. What do you think about those verses?

02:02:09

I don't know any of it. Didn't pay attention to any of it, right?

02:02:20

I don't blame you. I'm right there. I'm on you. I'm right there. He's going off on a tirade.

02:02:25

I'm realizing he's not trying to understand anything I'm saying. He just has an agenda. So what?

02:02:31

I didn't listen to any of it. Don't care about any of it. Right? Why? Because none of it, he doesn't want to take the time to, as scripture says, to reason through the scriptures.

02:02:43

Yeah, there's no brain. There's no brain and heart. He's doing exactly what Satan does. Twist the scriptures.

02:02:50

When you take God's word out of context, you no longer have God's word. You have man's word.

02:02:56

That's what these guys have. And they want to say, oh, it's God's word. It's God's word. When you mishandle God's word the way Satan does, you are like your father, the devil.

02:03:05

Or a flat earther. No, I'm just kidding. So Melissa said, Melissa, what do you want to bet that they're flat earthers too?

02:03:12

I agree. Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, basic mistake and you don't realize it.

02:03:18

Okay. So I try to point out the mistake. Now, I want you to notice for those who are not watching, let me explain what's happening on screen.

02:03:23

Dr. Matthew left about six minutes ago. He had enough, or actually less than that, four minutes ago.

02:03:31

Gabby had been in, but he's been quiet. Frank comes in. Now, at this point, folks,

02:03:37

I'm ready to leave. Okay. This isn't a productive conversation.

02:03:44

They're not going to learn. They're not going to listen. They're there to teach.

02:03:50

And they're not there to even answer basic questions. They don't want to look at context, nothing.

02:03:56

So I'm at this point, I'm ready to leave. Now I've been saying it's going to get heated.

02:04:02

Here we go. Because once Frank starts, you're going to see, you're going to see someone who is, you know, we talk about Christians that are in the cage stage,

02:04:10

Calvinists. Well, he's a cage stage, whatever they are. Here we go. Okay. One is proof texting.

02:04:16

You're slamming a whole bunch of verses together, ignoring their context. What is the lexical usage of the word name?

02:04:23

What I was doing was playing a seed because the word of God is a seed. Did he answer my question,

02:04:29

Justin? Absolutely. Not even tried it. Just checking. I want to check. All right. What is the meaning of name in English?

02:04:37

That's what it means. Okay. So this is Frank, I think that was jumping in. Okay. He's going to start up whatever it means in English.

02:04:46

It has two different meanings in English. We use it two different ways. So which one is it? Sure. It only refers to a name.

02:04:53

It doesn't refer to a reputation at all. So when Jesus said baptizing the name of the father singular.

02:05:00

Oh, that's Gabby. Sorry. That was Gabby speaking. Sorry. So is that referring to it?

02:05:07

You like to just brush questions off. So the question was. Is that amazing? I'm the one that brushes questions off, folks.

02:05:14

The reason I've been pointing out how many times they've been brushing my questions off is because I knew this guy says this later.

02:05:21

Right. I'm the one brushing questions off. Classic. What is the name of the father and the son and the

02:05:28

Holy Spirit? It's the reputation of the father. What does it say? Reputation. That's the usage of a word. So you don't believe every word of God then.

02:05:36

Now, I want you to know. Right. So you don't believe every word of God. Now, this is the way pride acts on a human being.

02:05:46

Is it he can lift himself up, put the person down, and you don't believe the word of God. I do.

02:05:52

That's right. The reality is he's mishandling scripture, and they don't even want to look at this.

02:05:58

Now, he's claiming again that I don't want to answer questions. I'm brushing off questions. I've answered it. I mean, it's just the fact that they don't accept the answer doesn't mean

02:06:07

I haven't answered it. It's the fact that they don't understand that it's answered. It's answered in what's called context.

02:06:14

And so it's interesting to see that.

02:06:21

Now, this guy's going to claim that I haven't given any scripture. Now, they're going to argue, well, that's because he just came in.

02:06:27

Now, it's interesting. He just came in, but he knows I've brushed off questions. How many questions have I brushed off?

02:06:33

None. I tried to get back to the original question that I asked, and they went off on tangents.

02:06:38

Then they ask a question. I go back to the original question. That's something you want to do. If someone answers you with a question, make them answer your question first and then answer theirs.

02:06:49

And that's a tactic that I do. Okay. This is a thing. When someone gives an answer.

02:06:58

Oh, no. Go ahead, sir. So when you come upon someone that has an answer that you don't like, you accuse them of not being saved.

02:07:08

You accuse them of not believing the scriptures, all to cover your ignorance. I handle the scripture.

02:07:15

Okay. So notice, once I get, once I point it out, now Frank is going to get heated up.

02:07:21

Okay. They have explained, they have exposed their ignorance. They lack the ignorance of language.

02:07:29

They lack the ignorance of logic. They lack the ignorance of scripture. They lack the ignorance of context.

02:07:35

You know, oh, here, put up Melissa, Melissa just wrote there. Andrew, how dare you not play their game,

02:07:41

LOL. They don't like, they don't like that. I'm not falling prey because guess what?

02:07:47

Sorry. I understand how debates work. I understand how cults work. I understand the tactics that are used and I don't fall for it.

02:07:55

And that is upsetting. And you're going to see Frank get really upset. Frank, can

02:08:01

I answer that question for you? Sure. All right. All the answers that were given to these questions that my brother gave to you so far were with scripture.

02:08:08

It wasn't their own words. It was the scripture. No, it's all scripture. Is that true? Well, some of this now at this point, they were giving,

02:08:16

Patrick was giving scripture, wasn't he? He wasn't giving context. He was just, he was just reciting scripture with no meaning, assuming the meaning because he's using the fallacy of equivocation.

02:08:28

Because each word name has only one meaning. Where in both Greek and in English, it has multiple meanings.

02:08:35

It's whatever it means. Oh, you know what? Let's do that. Let's, let's look up the word in a dictionary.

02:08:40

I didn't think of doing this. Let's go to dictionary .com. I'll do this live and put in the word name and let's see what the word means in English.

02:08:51

Name. All right. So, it's a noun, one, a word or combination of words by which a person, place or thing, a body or class of any object is known or designated or called.

02:09:07

Okay. That's how they're using it. Number two, a near designation or designation of fact.

02:09:12

Number three, a title, an epithet. Number four, a reputation.

02:09:19

Oh, it's exactly what it means in English. That's right. I'm using it as number four in some of those cases and number one in other cases, because that's the context gives the meaning.

02:09:30

And when you ignore the context, you don't know the meaning. So, both Greek and English support my case that they have a fallacy of equivocation.

02:09:38

What do they do? They insult, they belittle, they berate, and they anathematize.

02:09:45

That's what they do. As far as I've been listening, I haven't heard you use a scripture.

02:09:51

One thing that I know and I believe is that Jesus is a name above all names. He inherited that name from the father.

02:09:58

It was given to him before he was conceived in the womb. It is not an English name, a Hebrew name.

02:10:04

It is not an earthen language. It is a heavenly language. Delivered from an angel from heaven to be named of the son.

02:10:11

Just like the generation of Jesus Christ is mentioned in Matthew 1. And that Jesus is a spirit.

02:10:17

He's one spirit, one Lord. Okay? He was manifest in the flesh as the son of God. He came unto his own and his own received him not.

02:10:25

He was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not. They received him not.

02:10:30

He was crucified on the cross for forgiveness of all sins. They took him down from that cross and buried him.

02:10:36

He was buried three whole days and three whole nights. The power of God resurrected him on the third day and he was seen by over 500 brethren at once.

02:10:47

And without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness. God's with us. Adam - Okay, I know what happened to him.

02:10:54

So, the question I have is, I have not referred to a single scripture this whole time I've been on here. Is that true?

02:10:59

Chris - He mentioned he was listening. He didn't hear you bring up scripture. That's what

02:11:05

Frank was saying. So, he didn't hear the whole conversation. But I can concur that you haven't been bringing up very much scripture for the last 10 -15 minutes.

02:11:11

Adam - Because he won't stop talking. Chris - Yeah, exactly. I haven't been bringing up much scripture for the last 10 -15 minutes.

02:11:18

Why? Because I haven't been allowed to speak for those 10 minutes, right?

02:11:24

Adam - We bring nothing but scripture. Frank - Yeah, I haven't been allowed much to talk. And one of the things is…

02:11:31

See, now here's the thing, folks. You don't sit there and let them get away with that because to their audience who's listening, they want to say, see, we won, we won.

02:11:40

But you don't let them get away with it. I mean, this is the very reason that the Democrats hate Trump. This is exactly what

02:11:45

Trump does, right? He points out what they're doing. What did I do? I'm going to point out, well, yeah, I haven't used scripture for the last 10 minutes because I haven't been allowed to speak, right?

02:11:55

And they're citing nothing but scripture out of context. Adam - See, I would like to take each of the passages and look in the context, which you guys want to avoid.

02:12:04

You want to insult when someone disagrees with you. That's not really very good. Frank - So, okay, so I'll ask you this then.

02:12:11

What's the name above every name? Adam - Huh? Frank - What's the name above every name? Adam - And what does the scripture say that is?

02:12:17

Frank - I'm asking you. Adam - I hope you believe it. Adam - Give me that scripture then. Hold that up.

02:12:24

Frank - With pleasure. Adam - Okay. Well, it says that he's been given a name above every name, right?

02:12:33

So, you're saying that if you look in the very next verse there, that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow.

02:12:41

Okay. Is Jesus God? Yes. Is Jesus the father? No. Now, they don't understand that distinction, right?

02:12:51

But I'm not going to sit there and avoid, what are they doing? The same thing I pointed out earlier. What are they doing?

02:12:57

Getting to something you would agree with that's clear in scripture, so you would agree and then they could take you to the next point.

02:13:05

So, what do I do? I agree and then say, but here's the disagreement, right? Get right back to the disagreement.

02:13:11

I won't let them play that game, right? So, I say, yes, that's what scripture says. But I wanted them to see.

02:13:17

I wanted them to bring it up so that they see. It doesn't say that Jesus is the father there, does it? No, it doesn't.

02:13:23

Adam - You're not the father. Frank - Okay, well, let me ask you this. Hold it.

02:13:29

I'm going to say something else, so you guys can listen. You made a lot of accusations about me. What does the scripture say?

02:13:35

Wherefore God. That does not say, therefore the father. You're reading that in. Adam -

02:13:40

I'm not the father? Frank - God is the father. God is the son and God is the spirit. Adam - What does it say that God is the son?

02:13:46

Frank - Well, you have a dilemma if you deny the trinity. Adam - Well, you have a dilemma if you can't use the scripture to show me that something that says that the son of God is.

02:13:55

Frank - Now, I want you to notice what he's doing. And I've had Muslims do this as well. They want a specific phrasing of scripture, okay?

02:14:04

And if it doesn't give it exactly the way they say it, then it's not that.

02:14:10

So, let me answer the question he asked. If you look in John chapter 8,

02:14:18

Jesus says to them, truly, truly, I say to you before Abraham was born,

02:14:24

I am. And therefore they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself.

02:14:31

Okay, let's now go to John chapter 10 where we see the continuation of this. Okay, here he says, and they keep quoting this verse, where Jesus says,

02:14:42

I and the father are one. They just read that verse. They don't keep reading. And the

02:14:47

Jews pick up stones again to stone him. Again, referring to the previous time. Jesus answered them.

02:14:54

I showed you many good works from the father, for which of these do you stone me?

02:15:00

What's their answer? Their answer is, the Jews answered, for a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself to be

02:15:12

God. They understood when he says, I and the father are one, or when he says before Abraham, I am, they understand that he's claiming deity.

02:15:23

And they want to stone him for blasphemy, for being a man that claims to be God. They believe he's a man.

02:15:30

They agree with the Pharisees, not the scriptures. They don't agree with what

02:15:35

Jesus believes. They believe the Pharisees believe. That's their thinking.

02:15:42

So let's keep going. The son of God, sir. Do you know what son of God means?

02:15:51

Yeah, it means he's of God, the son of God. Take him to Isaiah 9. No, hold on, hold on,

02:15:56

I'm waiting for his answer. I want to get this straight. What's your name again? Bjorn. Bjorn, Bjorn, are you saying that when we see son of God, it means he must be an offspring of God?

02:16:07

He's the only begotten of the father. He's of. Now notice he's not, he doesn't want to answer that, right?

02:16:14

And I'm going to try, and I'm going to let this go for a bit so you can hear it, but what I'm going to try to do is get him to realize that son of does not, again, there's the same fallacy of equivocation.

02:16:23

Son of does not only mean offspring. Son of can also mean essence of. I'm going to try to point that out.

02:16:30

They're not going to like that. You know, Melissa makes a good point here. She says, Andrew, it's like they think they can wear you down until you concede.

02:16:38

Exactly. That's exactly what they want. So I, you know, just listen to this.

02:16:45

You're going to see them now. They're all going to be jumping on each other to answer me. And then Frank's going to probably be the loudest.

02:16:50

Father. Okay. It's a yes or no. He's the only begotten son. Offspring isn't in scripture.

02:16:57

So I'm not going to, I don't know what offspring should mean. So can we stick to scripture, scriptural words?

02:17:03

I'm giving you, I'm asking you the meaning of the phrase son of God is a son of mean offspring.

02:17:09

What does it mean to be son of the son of it means he's of the father though. He's the only begotten of the father.

02:17:15

He's not just the son. He's the only begotten. Do you need, is there a reason that you need more out of me? I'm telling you he's on the father.

02:17:21

Do you need more of me? Yeah. I need you to explain what it means. See, all they do is they, they just keep reciting the same thing.

02:17:28

Son of only begotten of the father, only begotten of the father. What does that mean? They lack integrity with language.

02:17:35

They don't want to give you that because if they give you that, then they have to give answers. They're just, all they're doing is, is as they would say, they're using scripture.

02:17:44

They're not explaining anything. They're not giving the meaning of things. They're not giving an understanding of it. They, and they're not even trying to explain what they mean is offspring, but they don't want to say that.

02:17:55

Oh, he's in there. They won't say how they're using it. Did God's word not, not answer your question clearly enough.

02:18:04

Is his, is his word enough to go outside and, and, and create other words to add it. We have to go outside of scripture to create other words.

02:18:12

No, we don't. We, we have the words of scripture, son of God. What does it mean? Just give me the meaning. Do it. He can't do it.

02:18:18

What he thinks is that if he gives you a citation of scripture, that is the answer, but he doesn't explain the meaning.

02:18:26

And he thinks that if you give a meaning, that's man's word, but yet they want to use English and English has meaning.

02:18:34

And he doesn't want to look at that. Son of God is a title. What does it mean? It's not because when

02:18:41

Jesus called himself son of God, the one time they wanted to stone him, why? Because he claimed to be God.

02:18:46

That's the meaning of the title. KT is saying they, they, they trying to belittle you pride.

02:18:54

Yeah, it is. It is their pride. Very, very. So you're going to see it come out now because now is when it starts getting really heated up and I'm going to start to make my way out and we'll see it.

02:19:04

Is not clear. I understand. You can't, you can't answer because you're stuck. And I, I see that. I understand that.

02:19:10

So my stuff is like elaborate how I'm stuck. I'll move on and ask the next question. So son of God, if you're saying means he's, it's of that, right?

02:19:18

So some, yeah, he was obedient to the father. Okay. So James and John scripture, by the way, when you're doing this, because this is a word of God study and we prefer to stick to scripture.

02:19:27

Word of God study. You don't sure we stick to scripture. Scripture out of context is not scripture. We'll end up being removed.

02:19:35

So this is where the point. Yeah. This is the point where I realized, um, and you're going to see, they're going to mute me when

02:19:42

I try to ask a question and I get in the way of them. Frank is, is the more aggressive one of, of the group.

02:19:47

And now you're going to see it. I'll probably let this play for a bit without interruption if I can, but you're going to see how these tactics work.

02:19:55

All right. And Melissa says, wow, he's so condescending toward you. You haven't seen anything yet,

02:20:00

Melissa. Now we're going to see it. You can remove me because you can't answer questions. I understand.

02:20:05

You're removing yourself, but you got to stick to the scripture as well, because that's, that's what this is about.

02:20:13

It's not a man's study. We're not studying man's word. We study God's word. We want to live by every word of God.

02:20:18

Not every word of man's doctrine. We're not looking to be God's such as you are.

02:20:24

So here's the thing. You guys invite me in, then you don't let me speak. You insult me over and over again. You, you sit there and lie about what

02:20:30

I say. So I'm sorry, you guys need to humble yourselves. Okay.

02:20:36

Burn a guy study. You wait. That's what I remember. It's off to the word of God. Not to your, not to your logic, your doctrine.

02:20:42

And it's the word of God that we almost have to say about James and John. They're the sons of who? Take us to the lines.

02:20:50

Take us to the lines. Now's your opportunity to humble yourself and bring us to the scripture. Sure. Mark 3, 17. Mark 3, 17.

02:20:56

Thank you, Andrew. What we're revealing is maybe you don't know the scriptures well enough, but the ones that you have prepared.

02:21:03

So the difference is, is I actually am giving you scripture. Maybe you don't know the scripture well enough to hear it. Go ahead.

02:21:10

Go ahead. Go ahead. So who are, who is James and John? Who, who's, who are they the son of? Who are they part of?

02:21:16

Zebedee. No, which is what it says right there. It says Zebedee. Folks, if you have it on your screen, you can see us.

02:21:25

But the first says Mark 3, 17, James and John, the sons of Zebedee, the son of Zebedee and John, the brother of James.

02:21:32

And he surnamed them, which is the sons of thunder. Now my focus is the sons of thunder, because this is the same usage, son of Zebedee, son of thunder.

02:21:43

We're seeing the word son, son of two different ways. One is referred to the offspring and the other is referred to the characteristic.

02:21:52

They're both here. Now, what they're going to do is say, oh, it's a surname. It's a surname.

02:21:58

It's not actually a surname because they didn't have surnames. It's a nickname. What we would refer to as a nickname.

02:22:05

Yeah. That's what it says, which is the sons of thunder. It's right there. It's right there.

02:22:11

And so the reason I go to this verse is because this verse gives you both usages in one verse.

02:22:21

So you put something up there. Yeah. They don't have the word of God, KT. She says they don't have the word of God.

02:22:28

They twist the word. The serpent also twisted it to suit his purposes. That's right. And Melissa says yet Andrew stayed as cool as a cucumber.

02:22:37

We'll see if she still believes that. I'm about to get heated up on my way out, but that's still a few minutes away.

02:22:44

But I want you to know why I take this verse. When people say son of God does not mean God, that is because they don't understand the usage or the title.

02:22:52

The way son of does not only mean offspring. It also means attributes or characteristic or essence of, and by the way, they're not using it in either one of those ways.

02:23:04

Okay. They use son of meaning that God is in the sun. Where's that usage?

02:23:12

I mean, that usage isn't in English. It's not in Greek. It doesn't exist, but that's how they do it because they say

02:23:17

Jesus is not God. He's the son of God, meaning that God is in him. They said that earlier, which is, which is the sons of thunder.

02:23:28

So, so you're telling me, they're sorry, which is the sons of thunder.

02:23:39

Notice how he won't let me speak, right? Once you point out that they tell me that, give me the scripture, give me the scripture.

02:23:44

Now's your chance to humble yourself. But what happens soon as I try to go to the scripture, they don't want to look at that.

02:23:50

They want to all talk over me. The son of thunder, their surname, surname. Okay. Jesus is the only begotten.

02:23:57

By the way, I should mention, I didn't, I paused it. I didn't rewind that. So when you heard him saying the surname, the surname, the surname, the surname, he was actually saying that each time, right?

02:24:09

He's trying to, I don't know if he's trying to convince me or himself. I'm not sure, but he does. What does he want to do?

02:24:14

He wants to focus on the words other than the ones I'm focusing on, right? That's the game plan.

02:24:20

That's the tactic. Other. Okay. That's the difference. He's not seeing through him.

02:24:25

We become sons of God when we believe the gospel that we preach unto you, that you do not believe. See, okay.

02:24:30

Now I didn't hear that. I'm backing this up because I didn't hear that the first time I did. He just claimed we become the sons of God.

02:24:37

I think that's what he said. Let me, let me listen. Begotten of the father. Okay.

02:24:42

That's the difference. He's not seeing through him. We become sons of God when we believe the gospel that we. Wow. So he's saying we become sons of God when we believe the gospel.

02:24:54

So God becomes in us. And I'm going to, you know, because there's like, this is what you don't want.

02:24:59

You hear something and you don't want to jump to son of God means God. So I could say, so you're saying you're

02:25:04

God, but that's not how they mean it. So I have to put it in how they're meaning it and say, okay, does that mean we become like Jesus completely?

02:25:13

Well, I don't think he's meaning that because remember they believe, at least from what we've gathered, that son of God means that God is in them.

02:25:21

And so would we say God is in us? Well, we would say the Holy spirit indwells us.

02:25:26

Could that be how he's meaning it? Now, here's the thing I'm pointing out when I point this out, when you're in these discussions, you want to give the benefit of the doubt.

02:25:35

Yeah. Do not want to just jump on something. And this is what a lot of people do. It's a strawman argument that people do.

02:25:41

They hear something, they have their meaning for it. They jump on it and say, well, you mean this. Okay.

02:25:48

Do they mean that? You need to understand how they're using the words and try to understand it in their language and give the respect to say, let me see if that's actually what they mean.

02:26:01

Don't just jump on it because that's how people create strawman arguments. You were going to say something. Yeah, I was going to say in Mark 3 .17

02:26:08

here, it is Jesus, he is bestowing upon them the surname

02:26:16

Boanerges. And Boanerges, it means the sons of thunder.

02:26:21

It's a moniker or a title. This is who you are because of your personality.

02:26:28

You're thunderous, you're boisterous, you're outgoing. And their entire lives proved it.

02:26:35

Until a much later time, their entire lives in the ministry of Christ, it over and over and over again proves it.

02:26:42

He's not saying that's a family name.

02:26:49

Wait, though, wait, though. You're going to love this. Guess what that word surname is in Greek? The same exact one we've used over and over again for the word name.

02:26:59

The one they're using everywhere else, the name of Jesus and everywhere else, the name of the father and the son of the

02:27:06

Holy Spirit. And he named them Berjonus.

02:27:11

It's the same word. So it's the King James that's... Oh, you're right. It's the

02:27:17

King James adding the word surname in the New American Standard, its name. But when I look in the Greek, it's the same word.

02:27:23

This is the same Greek word they're arguing for. I'll pull that up so everybody can see it.

02:27:29

Yeah, I guess the issue is that they would argue that this is the...

02:27:35

Because the fact that this is the King James, that's what is inspired. So that must be right.

02:27:41

Yeah. So here we go. It gets heated. I think I'm about six minutes before I'm out of there.

02:27:48

They berate me for a while. When I finally get a chance to speak, then I'm pretty much out in a few minutes.

02:27:54

Unto you that you do not believe. See, the thing is, is that the scripture is always going to be true.

02:28:01

And the scripture says, You may not be able to see it.

02:28:11

I was trying to speak and he's just, he got louder. He's just going to speak right over me. And now they're going to mute me because this guy's got to speak, even though he's, he's, you know,

02:28:21

I haven't been allowed to speak throughout the whole thing, but you can't interrupt them. I'm interrupting scripture.

02:28:31

So his words are scripture. That's right. They're divinely inspired. Yeah. Give me a second to read that for you.

02:28:48

So right there, they muted me. If you see me leaning back, they muted me. And at that point I'm going, okay, I'm going to be out of here.

02:28:54

I'm planning on what I'm going to say. I know their behavior. I know what they're going to do right after when

02:28:59

I leave. Because they don't, they haven't kicked me out yet. When I leave, they're going to their pride would end up saying that they're going to gloat.

02:29:07

We'll see if that's true. So here we go. Believe not is condemned already because he had not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.

02:29:18

See, Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Okay. In that name alone, there is no other begotten son of God.

02:29:27

Just Jesus. See, Jesus is the brightness of the father's glory.

02:29:37

He's the express image of his person. Like it says in Hebrews 1, 3, who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.

02:29:56

See, God is a spirit, but Jesus Christ is a man. And that spirit dwells inside him.

02:30:01

The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells inside him being made so much better than the angels.

02:30:07

As he hath by inheritance, he inherited this name, obtained a more excellent name than nay.

02:30:14

Do you guys notice how often they're using the same passages? And like when someone said that stage, well, that's what you're seeing.

02:30:21

These guys all do this. You know, they got all their routine down just like Black Hebrew Israelites do.

02:30:27

And this is the game plan. This is what they do. And just keep going through these couple of verses, but don't look at any verses outside of them.

02:30:34

Well, don't use them in context either. I mean, yeah. And again, I'm going to say this because, you know, look, folks,

02:30:41

I'm letting you hear all their words. I'm not cutting them out. I'm letting you hear all their argument.

02:30:48

Yeah, we're stopping it and interacting with it. Something they wouldn't let me do on their own show. The fact is they were all a bunch of cowards to come on here and actually do a formal debate where they'd actually have a timer and have to shut their mouths and let me speak because they wouldn't want that.

02:31:03

Because this is the thing you see with cults. There's four on one, right?

02:31:08

You got one guy muting me, three of them going out. Now, you know, Borgia is kind of quiet and the other two are going off.

02:31:14

But the reality is they can't handle an honest debate. They can't. And that's what

02:31:19

I told them. I said I would be. I told them ahead of time they could come on here, right? I told them we were going to deal with this, what they said, because they can't handle honest debate.

02:31:30

They can't handle honesty. They're not logical. They're not honest. They're not scriptural.

02:31:36

Yeah, they might use scripture, but Satan uses scripture. OK, so just the use of scripture does not make it biblical.

02:31:45

What I want you to notice that's going on, too, guys, is you have what have you got, four or five main characters in this?

02:31:54

That are four, OK, that are that are leading and they're attacking everything else. What I have noticed a lot that happens is you get these these groups of of Christians, and I'll use it in quotes because I don't know if they are or not.

02:32:07

I am really worried about that. And I know you are, too. But what

02:32:13

I'm going to say is you get a lot of people that will go into churches and they will they will try to pull out these little

02:32:18

Bible study groups and they'll try to, oh, I know more about the Bible. I know more about scripture than your pastor does.

02:32:24

Then all all those seminarians and they just try to elevate themselves. We know the

02:32:30

Bible and they get a group of proud people together. And what ends up happening is this type of mentality.

02:32:38

Anybody that tries to come in to talk, to teach, they want a railroad. And unfortunately, a lot of times that's how they draw people in.

02:32:46

They draw people in because they are so dominant. They are so overwhelming that people just surrender to them.

02:32:54

Yeah. Why don't you read what Melissa said there? Andrew, I give you props for staying on as long as you did.

02:33:00

You did an excellent job in dealing with these guys. You continue to have patience while trying to correct them.

02:33:06

Good job, my brother. Now, and that's, you know, I want to point out what Melissa is picking up on is the fact that I'm not

02:33:12

I'm there to try to teach them and help them not try to win a debate with them.

02:33:18

But once I realize my time is being wasted, I'm throwing a pearl before swine. It's time to leave.

02:33:23

I've already tried to set rules. I've shamed them. It hasn't worked. It's time to leave.

02:33:29

So that's what's going to happen soon. It's the name of all names. He came in his father's name and you receive him not.

02:33:36

But if another shall come in his own name, then you shall receive. You're not going to receive Jesus, but you'll receive Yeshua, I bet, or any other name.

02:33:44

Receive Jesus as a heavenly name. Notice what he said there. You'll accept Yeshua or any other name.

02:33:50

Oh, so we can't we can't use the Hebrew name for him. We can't use the Greek name for him.

02:33:56

Those would have been the two names he actually would have been used at that time. It had the English name, a language that didn't exist for 1400 years after Jesus.

02:34:07

In fact, there wasn't even a standard for English until after the King James Bible, not the 1611, by the way, because the 1611 doesn't use the standard

02:34:16

English that we have today. It was the 17, was it 1780, 1790 version that standardized as English.

02:34:23

So the English we use today is like less than 300 years old. OK, so just recognize that.

02:34:31

And he wants to say this is the name of Jesus. This is the name he would have had. They wouldn't have known that name

02:34:37

Jesus for 1400 years. After he lived, just saying.

02:34:46

And by the way, so here's I'll tell you what's going to happen. I'm going to give them a scripture to show what what the name of God, the father is, what

02:34:54

God's name is. They're going to ignore it. And then I'm going to I'm just going to point out, hey, look, you guys are going to your your pride, you're going to, you know, celebrate my leaving.

02:35:04

See you. And I'm going to walk out. We'll watch that from an angel. OK, it's not

02:35:10

English. It's not Hebrew. It's of an angel. When you check the genealogy.

02:35:15

So it's you hear that? I'm going to back that one up because I want to make sure. Yeah, please do. It's not it's not

02:35:21

Greek. It's not in Hebrew. It's English. English. That's why I'm making that point.

02:35:27

OK, it's not English. It's not Hebrew. Let me back it up a little bit more.

02:35:34

This is a heavenly name delivered from. It's a heavenly name. So, OK, it's not

02:35:40

English. It's not Hebrew. It's of an angel. So it's not

02:35:46

English. It's not Hebrew. It's of an angel. So it's Elohim.

02:35:52

Yeah, I mean, like, so it's an angel. It's angelic language, but we don't have it. But the only but the name they've been saying all along is

02:35:59

Jesus. So he's disagreeing with the other guys had said that it has to be the name for Jesus, the

02:36:05

English name Jesus. He's disagreeing. I would you Matthew one. All those names are not

02:36:11

English. Neither is Jesus. Jesus was delivered from hell. OK, he's going to go to Matthew one.

02:36:16

He said that these names are not English. Yet they would be Hebrew. He said they're not

02:36:21

Hebrew either. Right. These would be an English translation of Hebrew names. And Jesus would be the

02:36:28

English translation of the Greek name. You know, you got

02:36:33

David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judas, Sarah, Sarah, then

02:36:40

Mara, then nemedab, Nessa. They're all in their original language.

02:36:45

And anything that was given to somebody in scripture where there's an interpretation for god gives it to us.

02:36:51

But he didn't do that with Jesus because that's the name. Above all names, it's the only name that saves.

02:36:58

it's awful yeah he said he didn't give us the meaning of the name what's the name of Jesus you know the meaning of it from the from the

02:37:09

Hebrew Emmanuel which is God with us from the

02:37:17

Hebrew would be God saves yeah that's the meaning it's actually what he just said the very meaning of the name he did see but he doesn't know enough to know that right just just saying there is no other name

02:37:34

I'm sorry you don't believe that so I hear what he just said

02:37:44

I already said I don't believe even though every time they'd ask me this I'd say I believe what's true but then

02:37:51

I'm not believing the things he says so so what is it that he just said that I don't believe is that we're saved in the name of Jesus right so he's gonna tell me what

02:37:59

I believe so this is this is where when you have people tell you what you believe and you correct them and they ignore that this is when you're being with dealing with unreasonable people and it's time to leave so that's what's gonna happen let's listen

02:38:12

I'm gonna be allowed to speak am I going to be allowed to speak yes well you guys cutting me off and not letting my own words you guys you guys don't even let me finish a thought before you cut me off and start going off and so here you go you're talking over me again because I wasn't allowed to finish okay so is my accusation false folks you can check how many times did

02:38:48

I point out that they interrupted me that they cut me off that they spoke over me is my accusation false or did he just tell a lie just saying before you went on a tirade and you muted me by the way the guy who claimed that I would that what

02:39:05

I said was false is the guy that told Patrick to mute me just saying so so Exodus 3 14 okay so no no

02:39:42

I want to point out what did I want I wanted verse 13 so he jumped to 14 why what is verse 13 say if you look at it what is his name what shall

02:39:52

I say unto them and he answers what his name is I am that I am right so you'll see guys do this you'll see people do this all time when they want to teach work salvation they stay go to James 2 15 they won't start at 14 why because 14 asks the question that shows that 15 following is all about sanctification not justification so they ignore that verse that's exactly what he does so I pointed out and go back to it you know his name okay you notice how they're all jumping they they realize they got like they're all trying to figure out how they're gonna get out of it like they're all speaking over each other even to answer this so this would be my parting shot and here we go no

02:40:45

I'd actually like to be able to finish the thought you guys said I could okay notice what

02:40:50

I did there I had to establish the rule I now shamed him because what do they do they're all jumping so that they can all talk over me

02:40:58

I'm gonna shame them and say you guys said I would be able to finish the thought right I wanted to finish the thought because I knew

02:41:04

I'm gonna be leaving yeah I have a question verse 13 what is his name correct yeah he answers

02:41:12

God answers what what his name is right there sure yeah I'm gonna go ahead and read it and Moses said to God behold when

02:41:19

I come unto the children of Israel and shall say unto them that God your fathers have been near to you and they shall say to me what is the name what shall

02:41:27

I have to answer them okay so you have his name God said unto Moses I am that I am that's his name now if you're gonna give anything else then you sorry okay so what did

02:41:40

I do I just did their tactic yeah I just did exactly what they do flipped it on them if you do anything else you're adding to scripture he gave you his name that's his name anything else you're adding to scripture they're not gonna like that they're gonna try to answer but I'm gonna leave yes here's here's the thing

02:41:59

I was trying to say before the reason I brought up son of is because what maybe I'm trying to help you guys to see is that words have meanings and if you're going to deny these words and eliminate meanings of words you're gonna have problems son of does not mean part of because when they're sons of thunder that doesn't mean they're part of thunder it means they had the essence of thunder they had the head characteristics of thunder son of God is the idea that you have the characteristics or understanding that you have you have characteristics or essence of God how do we know that if we see

02:42:32

John chapter 9 that's our John chapter 8 and John chapter 10 what is when in John chapter 10 what do they do when he when he ends up go to the scripture yeah

02:42:39

I just did you see it I cite description go to the scriptures all they want to do is all they want is scripture to be read nothing else they want just scripture being parsed together now for Melissa I'm gonna let you decide am

02:42:55

I losing my patience we'll see you're trying to prove a point out of John 8 and John 10 you're not gonna let me finish a thought you guys are just you have a cult -like behavior

02:43:05

I could see you're just gonna you're just gonna just see ya so what did

02:43:14

I say I would I said in your pride you're gonna be you're gonna celebrate that I left see ya and I left right they're not gonna let me talk it's just that all they wanted was scripture and Melissa yeah at that point

02:43:26

I got frustrated there was no sense in continuing it now let us see if as I predicted they're gonna celebrate in my leaving and claim victory in their pride and say that I couldn't handle it folks

02:43:40

I'm here I've been here for what to it almost three hours they could have come on anywhere during the three hours anyone's allowed to come in here they're welcome to come in they knew ahead of time we were doing it they could have come here and answer for themselves where are they nowhere we don't see them why because there are a bunch of cowards that can only work in a group mentality where they can control the reason they've never come on here is because you see their tactics when they need to they need to be able to talk over everybody control the scene and shut everyone down mute them when they need to we've been three hours responding to this

02:44:15

I've played them in entirety I haven't cut them out I let you hear what they said but we also looked at the scriptures that they use in context now are they gonna gloat let us see if they say that I that I can't handle it folks

02:44:29

I'm here where are they okay because he didn't finish reading that so 14 it says 13 says and Moses said unto

02:44:52

God behold when I come unto the children of Israel and shall say unto them the God of your fathers has sent me unto you and what shall they shall sit and they shall say say to me what is his name what shall

02:45:04

I say to come to them God and God said unto Moses I am that I am and he said thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel I am has sent me unto you and God said moreover unto

02:45:15

Moses thou shalt thou say unto the children of Israel the Lord God of your fathers the

02:45:21

God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me unto you this is my name forever and this is my memorial unto all generations okay so I'm the false sir but what did he say his name was

02:45:43

I am and he then says you could tell them that I'm the God of these people he doesn't notice he's not saying that's there in his name you tell him that so it is this is my name what was the name referring back to I am so what he just finished saying was catch this in context and Melissa is right this is laughable this man just said he's not saying that my name is

02:46:05

I am that I am he's saying that my name is when you ask when the children of Israel ask you say that the name of God is the

02:46:14

God of Abraham the God of Isaac the God of Jacob the one that has sent me this is my name that whole entire phrase is his name that's what he tried to throw out there but Jesus say you're wrong yeah that's the whole thing he just admitted the name's not

02:46:30

Jesus and he goes on talk about his name's not his name's not

02:46:36

Jesus now I'm gonna play a little bit more so you can hear their gloating then I'm gonna close out with with son that they say later that was only for the

02:46:42

Old Testament because God kept himself okay notice how they do this show me the scripture that says that God had a name only for the

02:46:50

Old Testament because he kept himself hidden you see they say you have to recite scripture you have to recite scripture we don't do the man the words of man what does he do he just made up whole cloth there's nowhere in scripture that says that God has a name that's hidden that's it's only for Israel because it's hidden until Jesus that doesn't exist my friends find me that verse that's called making it up from whole cloth that's the words of man

02:47:17

Frank that's what that is you just gave me what you said I was doing you just did that okay all

02:47:24

I was doing is asking for the meaning of the words or the context of the the passages that's all

02:47:29

I was doing you're making things up from whole cloth yeah so they know him by his name

02:47:43

Jehovah oh so he has a name because they were saying all along that the father's name is Jesus Jesus so he changed his name oh no he hid the name ooh that's always good to say he hides it so let me let me deal with something that they say let me jump around later in their conversation okay because I want us to hear something so we can close out because we have gone long will reign with him okay so what you're gonna hear he's gonna claim very clearly that Jesus is not

02:48:10

God and I'm gonna give you that in two passages the new heaven and the new earth and so the kingdom will be delivered back to the father so if he's delivering it back to God and then

02:48:23

Christ could never have been God to begin with okay did you hear that Christ could never have been

02:48:28

God to begin with let me go no no he's not modalism that's civilianism yeah he doesn't believe that Jesus ever was

02:48:38

God he believes and in the hour afterwards they end up explaining that they believe that Jesus is that God is in Jesus okay here we're gonna hear more he's gonna make this specific that it's the

02:48:53

Son of God not God okay so it's confusing for the people so folks here's the thing let me let me close out with this they don't want to believe

02:49:11

Jesus is God yeah okay well let's let's look at what we do see

02:49:17

Romans 10 they refer to Romans 10 earlier Romans 10 9 and 10 that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus as Lord you and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved if you don't believe

02:49:32

Jesus is God you are not saved if you don't think he's Lord you are not saved

02:49:38

I'll say that again they don't believe Jesus is God they don't believe he's

02:49:44

Lord they are not saved it's not me saying that that's Scripture saying that with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness and with the mouth one confesses resulting in salvation if they don't believe

02:49:58

Jesus is God they are not saved okay that's it's just that simple and so I know we went long

02:50:07

I don't like going long especially this long especially when I got to get up in a few hours to catch a flight but I wanted to go through this because a

02:50:16

I told them I would and I wanted to be able to have that so we have this

02:50:22

I hope this is it's long but I hope it's been helpful for you guys I hope that you see these tactics people do how you can defend against them the whole purpose of doing this was not to call them out the whole purpose for our audience

02:50:36

I mean if they would have come in we would had a formal debate great but the reason I did this was so you can see when you get stuck in these things once this happens to you you know how to handle it don't get frustrated don't get upset and that can happen to us look at the end

02:50:52

I was done I did get frustrated at the last bit I was frustrated I was out of there but I do this so that you guys can see how to handle these things and when to just say you know what

02:51:03

I'm done I was actually planning on leaving 20 minutes earlier but then this other the other two guys came in and we started a new conversation so I kept it a little bit and then

02:51:11

I said you know what these guys are even more aggressive there's no sense don't throw your your pearls before swine don't waste your time with people that are they're just full of pride and and don't want to you know to listen at all if they're if these guys would have been trying to understand what

02:51:29

I was saying I would have spent a lot more time with them but they had no desire to listen to anything I said it was all about them being the teachers in their false religion one thing

02:51:39

I want to point out real quick I know we're gonna finish up but I think you guys need to all take this to your pastors and to your teachers and the reason

02:51:49

I say that is because this is going to happen in churches often that people are going to come in like I'd point out earlier they're going to try to bully their way into the discussion they're going to try to force their teaching in and you got to be ready to deal with this and while everything didn't go as perfectly and smoothly as as maybe you know some people might have wanted it went like it should have to expose how you deal with this you know this this is a great show to let pastors know that they can they can stand on the

02:52:22

Word of God and they can deal with this okay but Justin you're a pastor as well as I you know pastor doesn't have three hours to listen

02:52:30

I got it

02:52:35

I just I gotta do this for our sponsor real quick just if you want to get a pillow get check out my pillow 1 -800 -873 -0176 1 -800 -873 -0176 or go to MyPillow .com

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02:53:06

and if you if you do get something please send us a picture so that we can show them here and and see what you guys got that would be great so we've gone long enough and I got to get up in what three hours so a normal night's sleep for me but I still got to put the show up yeah so folks we

02:53:27

I do appreciate you all coming in and I hope this has been helpful I know that it was longer than I'd like but I do think this was at least

02:53:35

I think it was appreciated let me just read real quick some of these notes why don't you read some of the comments that are up there this show was excellent thank you much brothers yep amen atomic apologetics and thank you

02:53:46

Andrew for going the extra mile yeah we need to have

02:53:51

Andrew's patience Andrew didn't have enough patience at the end but thanks folks and we'll call it a night next week