Pastors' Panel Podcast- Irresistible Grace

So this is truth and love. And actually truth and love. Sponsoring pastors panel podcast. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for watching these videos. Thank you for spending time with Claude and Dan and myself.

We appreciate the fellowship and we love spending time with you. We love talking about God's Word. We love talking about Jesus and we want to get his word out to our community. And thank you for your support.

We appreciate your prayers your comments your shares your likes and joining us as we reach our community for Jesus Christ and God's Word. Welcome Dan. Welcome Claude. Thank you for joining us tonight.

How you guys.

Doing doing good wonderful wonderful. Going to gym tonight ready to get in shape. Yeah. Dragonhawk it's the name of the gym I don't know. That's where you're going. After the podcast. No no no. Start Tuesday.

Okay. No after the podcast I'm.

Going to bed. I didn't know if that was a joke that we were supposed to get or if.

It was the name of the gym. Well we are going to continue our discussion in in the doctrines of grace. And we would appreciate any questions that you have we will try to answer if we. If we don't know the answer we'll look it up and we'll get back to you.

Always test what we have to say with the Word of God. That's that is our aim to do as well. That's our goal. Our method of studying is to is to test what we're thinking to test what we hear other people say with the Word of God.

Because we know God's Word is true and we're imperfect interpreters. But we want to seek the Holy Spirit. We want to seek truth and we want to seek unity and truth. So we believe that God will reveal himself to us as we study his Word.

We will as as time moves on that God's kingdom will grow. The kingdom of Jesus Christ will grow and we will continue to grow in unity. And I look forward to that. But we've looked at the sovereignty of God.

And if you've not watched those videos we would encourage you to go back and start at the beginning we've talked about the sovereignty of God. We've talked about. T total depravity. Total depravity. You unconditional election.

L limited atonement. And tonight we are on the I irresistible grace. And so have our faithful guests we're so we're so thankful for. Thank you Becky. Irresistible grace like I said these are these are doctrines of Scripture that that have caused friction among brothers.

And and we don't want to do that. We want to talk about it in love. And so that's why we request questions and dialogue with you. Because we want we want to learn together and we want to share what God has taught us and the doctrines that that we've come to love and appreciate.

And and and these are difficult passages. These are difficult doctrines. And there's some scriptures that seem to support and there's some some scriptures that seem to oppose these doctrines. And that's what we want to take a look at tonight.

Defining Irresistible Grace and Common Grace

So so Dan first things first what would you say a definition would be of irresistible or effectual grace. Yeah irresistible grace.

Is the certainty that what God has decreed will take place through the means that he is decreed for it to take place. And that's kind of a weird definition has got to be unpacked so I'll give you a I don't know something else go along with it.

If God's going to decree salvation and decree it through Jesus Christ he's going to call you to that salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. He's going to do so effectively. It doesn't mean that every single call of the gospel to an elect person will be effective initially but that at some point during that person's life God will call that person to himself so.

There's words on what you asked me about. I mean the words kind of give the the definition. I mean you're irresistible. It's something that we that we can't resist. And I know that goes against the grain just just those words.

And so you don't want to speak gently when we talk about this because it goes against the grain of how people have been taught how people have grown up. And and so the word irresistible something that we we can't resist something that that God does and we have no part in.

And people hold to the fact that that we we can resist God we can't tell God. No. And then you have the because we're not robots argument. You know we're not going to talk about that right now but that that's just the dialogue.

That's the conversation that you get into. But the the word itself gives us a definition and irresistible and then effectual. It has an effect. It's not it. God doesn't make this call. He doesn't send his grace out into the great beyond and hopes that it does something.

It's his grace. And his call has an effect. And I think both people on people on both sides of this argument would affirm the verse that we spoke about earlier of God's Word will not return void. It hasn't.

It has an effect. It's effectual. His word is effectual and it will it will fulfill its purposes. And so this is just kind of a going on along the same lines of that that thought. And Claude I think you said recently that you have been talking about these things in your church.

And so that kind of leads us to these other doctrines of grace. Not not the doctrines of grace that we're looking at as in these videos. But grace itself different different understandings of grace. And they all have different titles.

The first one is is common grace. How would you define common grace as opposed to.

Irresistible or factual grace. Common grace is kind of in and I know we'll get there later but it's a general. I would put the adjective general like a general grace shown to all mankind right. The the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Yeah right. So it's a common grit the common grace of God's goodness. The fact that we're living in breathing is a common grace. I mean truly you know because everybody's still living and breathing. So I would say just a quick you know would be the ad using the adjective general common grace got.

Questions .org has a great answer on that as well. Okay yeah I lost my train of thought I was gonna I was gonna add something that but I can't remember what it was and and then the second one was provenient grace.

Can you tell us what.

That one is yes either one either one. Dan do you want to go. It doesn't matter.

I mean I'm good sure. Yeah convenient. Grace is sometimes called preventing grace as well. It has the idea of a grace that goes beforehand and does work. Usually the idea is that the grace goes beforehand and does work in every person's heart so that they're able to make a freewill choice either for Christ or against.

It comes from a more Armenian Wesleyan understanding it's. It's their way of affirming total depravity while at the same time saying while we agree that man was totally depraved the cross of Christ has nullified the effect where we're no longer able to freely choose or reject Christ.

Which and I.

Would add again just for terms of simplicity just look at it as I mean. I know it sounds basic but when we when we think of these terms for those that are troubled by the terminology always just think of the opposite right.

Like I mean you light and dark right. So resist. If irresistible grace is what we're talking about tonight then the polar opposite of irresistible grace would be resistible grace. You know just think of it that way.

Which again bottom line it's the difference. It's really boils down to idolatry. You either worship God or.

You're worshipping yourself so I think it would also be good to define grace. What do you think. A simple definition of grace would be unmerited. Favor okay by.

The way if y 'all get a chance there's a man at the church he's got this is a plug for him but his his YouTube channel is called unmerited favor. He's doing. He just started and he's actually his name's Greg Madison.

He's he's the man with me on the doctrines of grace series that we're doing but uh he basically is breaking down Augustine's books right now or the confessions right now. But unmerited favor I mean it's how I would define grace or the acronym God's riches.

At Christ's expense. So that might be helpful people that watch the video write down these definitions to put them side by side with the words and then you know put it together. So. Irresistible unmerited favor from God.

Yeah. And so that that leads us to this question which I remember what I was gonna say when you were talking about common grace. So when we look at irresistible grace and we look at a factual grace that leans more towards soteriology which is the doctrine of salvation.

Yes and so. But when we go towards common grace that's and you you define it more as a general grace and so that's why. That's why it's good to understand the difference between the two the two types of graces of God.

Not all his not all his favor is you know aimed towards a certain purposes. Well let me restate that all his purposes are for or for his glory. But um but but the one is for you know salvation which is going to have its.

Effect and then the outworking of salvation. That's then that's that's a very good point that you're making because that's that's what everything is revolving around. All these these doctrines of grace are revolving around.

Basically how salvation is accomplished. And and Becky brings up a good point it leads us to my next question. She says if we can resist God we would resist God. And that's my next line of question in the discussion is is God's grace resistive or resistible.

Can can we resist God. And as I was reading and looking at this doctrine I was thinking about who we who we are before Christ who we are in the realm of our sin nature and what we can and what we can't do.

So when we're when we're in that circle of our sin nature I think of it I think in pictures our sin nature is our boundary and that's that's where we're confined to. So with within that boundary are we resisting God.

Are we able to resist God in a certain way. In what ways. Are we able to resist God. Or we're not able to at all. What what do you think so that they would go to. Your question is.

God's grace. Resistive. Yeah yeah. So Dan I mean so what what would you say on.

That sir. Well that's a tricky one. It is. It is because the answer is is yes but because when you say yes it can be resisted. It can. But that really never falls outside of God's will for a certain situation either.

So under the umbrella of God's sovereignty we do from time to time resist the grace of God in general revelation or the call of the gospel to us. But that's really not what the doctrine of irresistible grace is getting at.

Dr. Irresistible Grace is getting at in the final analysis. Are those that he has called to himself. Are they able to resist the call of the gospel only. And finally does he lose any that he has called to himself.

Any of those who have been unconditionally elected. Does he lose them or they irresistibly drawn to him. That would that answer would be. I forget how to phrase the question but.

They cannot resist that grace. Yeah. And and tell me if you think I'm going in the right direction all this. But for me I think it's good to think about who we are. Yes we are apart from Christ we're in that boundary of our sin nature.

But the Bible also describes us in a different way that we are. That we are dead in our trespasses. So therefore what. We have no control as a dead spiritual person over what God does his resuscitating us reviving us making us into a new man.

Whatever he does regenerating us he does it apart from us because we're we're dead. We have no ability to contribute to that resurrection. That's right. Yep. And so to me that that goes along with this.

Doctrine of irresistible grace. Because we're passive yeah. In concerning salvation we are passive yeah. We are not active yeah. Which is what resistible grace and prevenient grace teaches that man is active in his own salvation yeah.

We're not active at all. We'd be reactive. The primary action of God upon the heart. Yeah all of these things are actually talked about in four little verses in John. One though like the idea of prevenient grace and then the the correct understanding of what it means to have light going out to every single person in the world.

If you go into verse 9 chapter 1 verse 9 says the true light which gives light to everyone was coming into the world. So who has that light everyone. A lot of times people will say well there there's prevenient grace.

No the light that was coming. The light went to everybody. And the Bible says so the light did good everybody. But look at what they did with it in verse 10. He was in the world that light being Jesus was in the world preaching the gospel and the world was made through him.

Yet the world did not know him. He came to his own and his own people did not receive him. So all the people that he shown his light to of all the call and the grace and everything that went out to folks they rejected him verse 12 but to all who did receive him who believed in his name.

Talking about salvation. Those who believe who have faith in Christ he gave the right to become the children of God who were born born again not of blood so not your lineage not Abraham's lineage or whoever else you want to bring up not their bloodline nor of the will of the flesh that means not of us our desire to do anything not of the will of man not our intellect or our character or our personality our philosophy or anything else but of God.

So even though the light did shine we took that light rejected it. Which also says the same thing says it backs it up in Romans 1 19 and 20 says that everything that we need to know about God has been plainly shown to us through nature.

And yet we suppress that truth with our own and righteousness. Yeah. So with that in mind being born of God then is that call of God to the sinner touching their life regenerating their soul saying this is Jesus the Christ was died and crossed for your sins come to me.

And then just like it says in John 6 all who the Father has given to me will come to me. Nobody comes to me. No less are drawn by the Father. So I'm sorry I took all the verses. For the rest of the program you absolutely did a.

Great thing. You took us right right into the Bible verses because we want to let God speak and that's where you took us. And and I didn't have John 1 on my list that I sent you guys. And so Claude if you want to start in John 6 37 and 44 I'll do John 15 16.

And then Dan if you want to do Ephesians 2 1 through 9 we'll start there. And so let's let's let God speak and let him talk about his.

Irresistible grace. So in John chapter 6 37. Yeah and then and then and 44. So we'll just read through. So full context. All that the Father gives me Jesus said will come to me and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Or I've come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me and this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me but raise it up on the last day.

Or this is the will of my father that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life. And I will raise him up on the last day. So the Jews grumbled about him because he said I am the bread that came down from heaven.

They said is not this Jesus the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know. How does he now say I've come down from heaven. And Jesus answered them. Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

Really. I mean all of those we have specific I mean specific each almost each statement that Jesus makes there all that the Father gives me will come to me. Right. Salvation is not as John is as Dan read in John earlier.

John didn't read from the book of Dan but Dan read from the book of John. Right. It's not of the will of man not of the will of flesh but of God. You know. So all the Father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

So we have you know Jesus stating that only those whom the Father calls will will come to him and those who do come to him he will not cast out. We have certainty there he came down from heaven. This is the will of him who sent me verse 39 that I should lose nothing again.

Absolute certainty. Folks wonder can you have assurance of salvation. Yes. You can absolutely have assurance of salvation because salvation is of the Lord. Right. And it's and it's so certain that he says all that the Father has given me I will raise up on the last day.

So not one who is called of the Father will be lost. That puts the if we were playing Hollywood Squares big X would flash. Right. Or is that family feud. I don't know. I'm getting my games crossed up.

But right that that puts the x-ray as.

They say on on prevenient grace. Right there. So our next verses John 15 16. But we can do the same thing to get a little context starting in starting in verse 12 Jesus says this command this is my commandment that you love one another just as I have loved you better love has no one than this that one lay down his life for his friends.

You are my friends. If you do what I command you no longer do I call you slaves. For the slave does not know what his master is doing. But I have called you friends for all things that I have heard from my father I have made known to you.

You do not choose me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatever you ask of the Father in my name he may give to you this I command you that you love one another.

So to me this also speaks to the fact that you know we go we go to Romans where it says and we talked about this in a previous video we go to Romans where it talks about God for God for new and God predestined to the to be for us to be conformed to the image of Christ.

And they say well that's not election that's just him predestining us to something which which that's that's correct. You know that he predestined us to be conformed to his son and so you kind of have that here that you should go I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit.

He he predestined us for that for good works for that fruit. But he also chose us and and appointed us. And so you've got those two different things here you can't take one and leave the other. But Jesus speaking of both here the the election and the the appointing or the predestining of what we're going to be what we're going to be conformed to.

And so like we said before it's it's Jesus and his work that is doing it for us because we are unable to do it ourselves. And that's why we should celebrate so much. I mean I can I can understand the frustration in the conversation because it it goes against worldly wisdom it goes against our tradition.

I understand that. But when you come to the reality so the fact that we're so undone we're dead in our trespasses and sin we have we are unable we have an inability to do to do anything. Not only are we undeserving but we're ill-deserving.

So we're in the worst shape possible that we could be in nothing that we could do in and of ourselves. And yet Jesus says I chose you and that's calls for celebration that's for lifting our voices and raising our hands and singing praises to God because of what he did praise God that his grace is irresistible because it just like Becky said earlier if we could resist God we would amen we would do it every day every moment.

And that's why it has to be irresistible. You know Romans 3 says no one seeks after God. Yeah. And that's the state that we would remain in. So that's right the Lord it's irresistible all right. Dan take us to Ephesians chapter 2 what they're not.

Claude you'll have acts 1348 and then I'll go to Romans 9 18. Hey Robert we're gonna touch on John 10 John 10 we are.

Now all right. I just figured John. John 10 is a great one for this. Take us to John 10. All right. Let's go. John 10 it's the Jesus is talking. He's teaching. He's teaching the about the the Good Shepherd.

He says I am the Good Shepherd. There's a gate keeps the gate. He calls his sheep she following and he knows not like these hired people. They see a wolf. I'm not getting bit and they run away. So if you look down at verse 14 Jesus starts talking.

He says I am the Good Shepherd. I know my own and my own know me just as a father knows me and I know the father and I lay down my life for the sheep. Limited atonement. Amen. Anyway moving on. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold meaning I believe Gentiles.

He's called talking to Jews also calling Gentiles. And I must bring them also. And they will listen to my voice. I try. So there will be one flock and one shepherd. Now move on to the next section. Jesus is somewhere else at winter time.

He's teaching again. They ask him you know. Hey you know what's going on here. Can you explain to us. Don't keep us in suspense. How long you know if you're the Messiah just tell us. And verse 25 he says I told you and you don't believe me.

The works that I do in my father's name bear witness about me. But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. And they listen to this. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.

It has sheep that are over there doing whatever sheep do usually dumb stuff and call them. They know it's and they say that's where I'm supposed to be. And they come and I will give that. In case you were thinking this wasn't about salvation.

Very next verse. I give them eternal life. They will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father who had given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand.

I am the father or one Jesus and the father doing the same work here. God the father's calling Jesus is securing salvation. The spirit is applying that work to their life. He's calling out to a people who are his people are coming to him and as they come to him he's holding on to him and they're not getting away.

That's right. That's what we mean by irresistible grace. He has called to them with the message of the gospel the the shepherd who says I laid down my life for my sheep. The shepherd who has died for us he calls us to himself gives them eternal life and never lets them go.

So there's that's why I wanted to stay in.

Content. It was directly relevant. I'm glad you brought that up because I'm now.

Drinking out of my Trinitarian coffee mug tonight the multi-purpose mug. But you know as Dan real quick just as an aside I think Dan he brought up a good a very good point there too that a lot of folks assume that when they hear the term irresistible grace that God brings us kicking and screaming to himself but he doesn't he he makes us willing whereas before that we are regenerated before we were unwilling to come to him and not only unwilling but unable.

But irresistible grace doesn't mean that God drags us kicking and screaming it just means that it's the result of his grace that there's there's there's not doing anything to anybody doing anything other than being obedient as Paul used the.

Heavenly call it's me. It's like you know a little child having you have your little child close their eyes for the birthday gift they open your eyes and there's that face of joy and excitement. And you know God doesn't have to kick us and screaming when he you know unveils us and we see his grace.

You know there's no way we would come kicking and screaming because we can see see the glory of his salvation in his work. Amen amen. Lazarus. Lazarus didn't buck I.

Guarantee you. He probably started smelling better for surely by now. He stinketh all right. Sorry. Go ahead guys. Oh I wouldn't say anything. My wife's.

Over here. Yeah. Let's see that let's see that. Love how Dan was preaching fire. So good it. May Claude have a taint have to tame his beard. Yeah so. Oh man I don't.

Know what. Just on my screen went blank there. So let me let me make it. Make a point here. Every podcast because my wife hates it. When I do it on the podcast I do it just to spite her in love. It's embarrassing to her to comb my beard.

Mrs. Ramsey let me get to Matt. Matt I think that I'm gonna get to your question and I'm going to to ask you again once we get to that part of it. I'm gonna ask you again if I'm getting to what you're asking and so we're gonna come back to that in just a minute.

Roger says I thank God that he chose me to be his elect. My salvation was the Father Son of Holy Spirit. Amen amen. So let's see where we at. Claude X 1348. And I'm flipping over to Romans 9 and then 1st Corinthians 15 the whole chapter.

Actually we could turn. Postmillennial is loosened. Hey that's the hope of the.

Resurrection let me hold you back. I've got verse 10 and I think actually Roger Roger sent me some verses today which I'm thankful for. I think it's verse 22 that he sent me one of the verses that he sent.

I want to follow that real quick. Yeah 20 22 23. I think those are some good verses to look at too. If you're while you're in 1st Corinthians 15 so call whenever you're ready with the axe.

X 13 yeah. 48 yep so. X 1348. And when the Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And let me put a parenthetical there irresistibly yeah.

And tell me if I'm wrong in this in my hearing of God's Word there you know previously we're talking about God's appointing or God's predestining for something like being to being conformed to his image or bearing fruit.

But here he uses that appointment for salvation. Mm-hmm. Does that seem. Right. Am I hearing that. Right. Yes. The appointing of those unto eternal life. Okay. Gotcha. Romans chapter 9 verses 18 through 19.

So then he was the. So then he has mercy on whom he desires. And he hardens whom he desires. You will say to me then why does he still find fault. For who resist us resists his will. I almost went into the King James there resisted his will.

So yeah that comes across to me is a rhetorical question. Yeah. Who can resist God's will. And the answer there of course is Paul would say no no one can resist God's will. You will say to me then why does he still find fault.

Or who can who resist God's will. It's it's it's God who we think about Pharaoh. He hardened Pharaoh's heart. And and the answer to that is he. You know he hardens who he hardens. He has mercy on whom he has mercy.

Because he's the he's the great I am. He says I am that I am I will what I will I do what I do. And and all those things kind of encompass that that name. I am I am I'm the I exist because I exist. I will what I will I do what I do.

That that's all of who God is. He is the the first calls the uncaused one. And so that's what we're seeing here. He has mercy. He's he's the only being in this scenario that has the freedom that we talked about.

He's the only one that has the free will. And here we see that he has mercy on whom he has mercy on who he desires and the heart of whom he desires. And we are unable to resist that all. It's pointing to first Corinthians 15.

You ready then. Yeah. First Corinthians.

15 is talking about in the first part of his home out the gospel back up. In verses 1 through well just about 10 he says that he wants them to know and understand exactly what the message of the gospel is that Christ died for our sins.

Just like the scripture said that he would that he was buried. They raised up on the third day just like the scripture said that he would that he not only did he do that but he also proved himself. He didn't have to.

But he did. And he did so pretty miraculously. He went to to Peter or Cephas. He went to the twelve so well I mean the new twelve. Yeah redax no catch you. And then 500 others at the same time most of whom are still alive although some of them have died.

Many appeared to James and the apostles. And then he appeared to Paul. And Paul says he probably shouldn't have because I was persecuting the church I was unworthy. He called me an apostle. I probably don't deserve that either but he called me.

And then he says this he says but by the grace of God I am what I am. So it was Paul strong Jew. Pharisee kept the law kept tried to do everything he could to earn and maintain righteousness through keeping of the law.

And he said I was so far way off base that I shouldn't have been called at all. If anybody was kicking and screaming when he was called it was it was Paul. In fact Jesus says you know why were you kicking against the goads.

Yeah so he says but by the grace of God I am what I am so it was the grace of God. The saw Paul on the road to Damascus that knocked him down put the scales on his eyes blinded him and drew him over there to Straight Street in wherever town he was at.

And then he was like you got I don't know what to do. And the guy came and touched him and the scales fell off and he saw anyone preached. I mean say he had the the opportunity to reject that if you want I don't see where it's at was called.

It was the grace of God that made him what he was. That's right he was.

Passively blinded and he was passively given sight. Right. Hey man. Right. And the.

Thing is that he may have not wanted all that up to that point but the moment that the Holy Spirit touched him with the power of Christ that was all he could think of. That's kind of I guess that was you can say about kicking and screaming.

You kicking and screaming up until the point of you don't want anything else it really becomes irresistible to you. The moment that that call is effectual in a different sense of irresistible. Not that like you're being pulled against your will but it's so beautiful and amazing.

That's why would you want. Well like a bug to a light like like why would I want to turn away like it's so wonderful. That's what I'm doing. And so Paul just keep on preaching. And here's here's it kind of leads in ties in the whole of the doctrines of grace here these next few verses which can get confusing because he's some very absolute language to talk about some things where he's in a context so I'll try and lean on you guys to pick up the slack.

Verse 22 he says. For as in Adam all die so who all was in Adam who was linked with Adam and Adam is the federal head would be mankind. So as an Adam all died. So also in Christ or those who are in Christ shall all be made alive.

So all those linked with Adam died. Either we're going to or at least they're spiritually dead. All those in Christ alive but each in his own order. Christ the firstfruits at his coming. Those who belong to Christ look at what it were saying there.

Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection. He who went into the grave and arose first among brothers he became man entered into the grave as no fully God fully man what risen from the grave first.

So that way when those who are his enter into the grave they too are brought up as no second third fourth first. That again is irresistible. And why is that. It's because the things behind the scenes are dictating what we experience in the reality that we experience and how we perceive stuff.

So here's what I mean by that. Because I can get no heady. I mean that if God's doing something and it has to do with you then at some point in your life that thing that God did is going to manifest itself and happen in your life.

So if Christ has taken your death with him into the grave and killed it and then it's been risen again he's going to raise you up with him. Yeah. And he's going to do so without you having to say in it.