Pastors' Panel Podcast- Irresistible Grace

Hello, this is truth and love and actually truth and love sponsoring pastors panel podcast

Thank you for joining us. Thank you for watching these videos. Thank you for spending time with Claude and Dan and myself

We appreciate the fellowship And we love spending time with you. We love talking about God's Word. We love talking about Jesus and we want to Get his word out to our community and thank you for your support we appreciate your prayers your comments your shares your likes and Joining us as we reach our community for Jesus Christ and God's Word Welcome, Dan.

Welcome Claude. Thank you for joining us tonight. How are you guys doing? Doing good

Wonderful wonderful Going to gym tonight ready to get in shape Yeah, Dragon Hawk, it's the name of the gym,

I don't know We're gonna run with it That's where you're going after the podcast.

No, no, no start Tuesday. Oh, okay. No, that's the podcast. I'm going to bed It's all the way to go the gym

Tonight I Didn't know if that was a joke that we were supposed to get or if it was the name of the gym Actually actually

Jim Well We are going to continue our discussion in in the doctrines of grace and We we would appreciate any questions that you have.

We will try to answer if we if we don't know the answer We'll look it up and we'll get back to you. Always test what we have to say with the

Word of God That's that is our Aim to do as well.

That's our goal our method of studying is to is to test what we have to say we're thinking to test what we hear other people say with the

Word of God because we know God's Word is true and we're Imperfect interpreters, but we want to seek the

Holy Spirit. We want to seek truth and we want to seek unity and truth So we believe that God will reveal himself to us as we study his word

We will as as time moves on that that God's kingdom will grow the kingdom of Jesus Christ Will grow and we will continue to grow in unity

And I look forward to that, but we've looked at the sovereignty of God and if you've not watched those videos, we would encourage you to go back and Start at the beginning.

We've talked about the sovereignty of God. We've talked about T Total the president total depravity

You Unconditional election L limited atonement and tonight we are on the

I irresistible grace and so have our faithful guests

We're so we're so thankful for Thank You Becky Irresistible grace

Like I said, these are these are doctrines of scripture that that have caused

Friction among brothers and and we don't want to do that. We want to talk about it in love and So that's why we request questions and dialogue with you because we want we want to learn together and we want to share what

God has taught us and and the doctrines that we've Come to love and appreciate and and and these are difficult passages, these are difficult doctrines and there's some scriptures that Seem to support and there's some some scriptures that seem to oppose these doctrines and that's what we want to take a look at tonight

So so Dan First things first What would you say a definition would be of irresistible or effectual grace?

Yeah irresistible grace is the certainty

That what God has decreed will take place Through the means

That he is decreed for it to take place and that's kind of a weird definition has got to be unpacked

So I'll give you a I don't know something else to go along with it If God's gonna decree salvation and decree it through Jesus Christ He's going to call you to that salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and he's going to do so effectively

It doesn't mean that every single call of the gospel to an elect person will be effective

Initially, but that at some point during that person's life God will call that person to himself so There's words on what you asked me about I mean

The words kind of give the the definition. I mean you're irresistible Something that we that we can't resist and I know that goes against the grain just just those words and so You don't want to speak gently

When we talk about this because it goes against the grain of how people have been taught how people have grown up And and so the word irresistible something that we we can't resist

Something that that God does and We have no part in and People hold to the fact that that we we can

Resist God. We can't tell God no and then you have the Because we're not robots argument, you know, we're not gonna talk about that right now, but that's just the dialogue

That's the conversation that you get into But the the word itself gives us a definition and Irresistible and then effectually it has an effect

It's not God doesn't make this call. He doesn't send his grace out into the great beyond and hopes that it does something

It's his grace and his call has an effect and I think

Both people on people on both sides of this argument would affirm the verse that we spoke about earlier

God's Word will not return void It hasn't it has an effect it's a factual his word is a facial and it will it will fulfill its purposes

And so this is just kind of a going on along the same lines of that that fall

And Claude, I think you said recently that you have been Talking about these things in your church

And so that kind of leads us to these other doctrines of Grace not not the doctrines of grace that we're looking at as in these videos

But grace itself different different understandings of grace and they all have different titles or adjectives

The first one is is common grace, how would you define common grace as opposed to irresistible or factual grace?

Common grace is Kind of and and I know we'll get there later, but it's a general

I Would put the adjective general like a general grace shown to all mankind, right?

The the rain falls on the just and the unjust yeah, right So it's a

Common grit the common grace of God's goodness the fact that we're living and breathing is a common grace.

I Mean truly, you know because everybody's still living and breathing. So I would say just a quick You know would be the ad using the adjective general common grace

Got questions org has a great answer on that as well Okay Um Yeah, I lost my train of thought

I was gonna I Was gonna add something to that, but I can't remember what it was. And and then the second one was provenient grace

Can you tell us what that one is? Yes Dan do you want to go?

It doesn't matter. I mean, I'm good Sure. Yeah Provenient grace is sometimes called preventing grace as well.

It has the idea of a grace that goes beforehand and does work Usually the idea is that the grace goes beforehand and does work in every person's heart

So that they're able to make a freewill choice either for Christ or against it comes from a more

Armenian Wesleyan Understanding it's it's their way of affirming total depravity while at the same time saying while we agree that man's totally the prey of the cross of Christ has

Nullified the effect where we're no longer able to freely choose or reject

Christ Which and and I would add again just for terms of simplicity

That just look at it as I mean, I know it sounds

Basic but When we when we think of these terms For those that are troubled by the terminology.

I always just think of the opposite, right? Like I mean you you light and dark, right?

so resist if irresistible grace is what we're talking about tonight, then the polar opposite of Irresistible grace would be resistible grace

You know, just think of it that way which again bottom line It's the difference.

It's really boils down to idolatry You either worship

God or you're worshipping yourself So I Think it would also be good to define grace

What do you a simple definition of grace would be? Unmerited favor. Okay, by the way, if y 'all get a chance

There's a man at the church. He's got this is a plug for him. But his his

YouTube channel is called unmerited favor He he's doing he just started and he's actually

His name's Greg Madison. He's he's the man with me on the doctrines of grace series that we're doing but uh

He he basically he's breaking down Augustine's books right now or the confessions right now, but Unmerited favor.

I mean, it's how I would define grace Or the acronym God's riches at Christ's expense

So that might be helpful people that watch the video and write down these definitions to put them side -by -side with the words and then

You know put it together. So irresistible unmerited favor Yeah Yeah, and so that that leads us to this question, which

I remember what I was gonna say when you were talking about common grace So when we look at irresistible grace and we look at a factual grace

That leans more towards soteriology Which is the doctrine of salvation? Yes And so but when we go towards common grace

That's and you you define it more as a general grace And so that's why

That's why it's good to understand the difference between the two the two types of graces of God Not all his not all his favor is

You know aimed towards a certain purposes Well, let me restate that all his purposes are for or for his glory but um

But but the one is for you know salvation which is going to have its effect

The outworking of salvation that's then that's that's a very good point that you're making

Because that's that's what everything is revolving around all these these doctrines of grace are revolving around Basically how salvation is accomplished

Right and and Becky brings up a good point it leads us to my next question

She says if we can resist God, we would resist God and that's my next line of Question the discussion is is

God's grace resistive or resistible Can can we resist

God and as I was reading and looking at this doctrine? Um, I was thinking about who we who we are before Christ who we are in the realm of our sin nature and what we can and what we can't do so When we're when we're in that circle of our sin nature,

I think of it. I think in pictures Our sin nature is our boundary and that's that's where we're confined to so with within that boundary

Are we? Resisting God are we able to resist God In a certain way

In what ways are we able to resist God or we're not able to at all what what do you think

So that that would go to your question is God's grace resistive So Dan, I mean

So, what what would you say on that sir? Well, that's a tricky one.

It is it is because the answer is is Is a yes, but Because When you say yes, it can be resisted

It can but that really never falls outside of God's will for a certain situation either

So under the umbrella of God's sovereignty We do from time to time

Resist the grace of God in general revelation or the call of the gospel to us

But that's really not what the doctrine of irresistible grace is getting at Doctrine of irresistible grace is getting at in the final analysis

Are those that he has called to himself? Are they able to resist the call of the gospel fully and finally does he lose?

That he has called to himself any of those who have been Unconditionally elected does he lose them or are they irresistibly drawn to him?

That would that answer would be I forget how to phrase the question, but they cannot resist that grace

Yeah And tell me if you think I'm going in the right direction on this But for me,

I think it's good to think about Who we are. Yes who we are apart from Christ.

We're in that boundary of our sin nature But the Bible also describes us In a different way that we are that we are dead in our trespasses so therefore what we have no control as a dead spiritual person over what

God does His resuscitating us reviving us making us into a new man

Whatever he does regenerating us He does it

Apart from us because we're dead we have no ability to contribute to that resurrection.

That's right Yeah, and so to me that That goes along with this doctrine of irresistible grace

Because we're passive yeah in concerning salvation we are passive. Yeah, we are not active

Yes, which is what resistible grace in prevenient grace teaches that man is active in his own salvation

Yeah Active at all would be reactive The primary action of God upon the heart.

Yeah All of these things are are actually talked about in four little verses in John one though like the idea of prevenient grace and then the

Correct understanding of what it means to have light going out to every single person in the world You go into verse 9 chapter 1 verse 9

Says the true light which gives light to everyone was coming into the world. So who has that light?

everyone and a lot of times people will say well there there's prevenient grace know the light that was coming the light went to everybody and The Bible says so the light did good everybody but look at what they did with it in verse 10

He was in the world that light being Jesus was in the world preaching the gospel And the world was made through him yet the world did not know him

He came to his own and his own people did not receive him So all the people that he's shown his light to of all the call and the grace and everything that went out to folks

They rejected him verse 12 But to all who did receive him who believed in his name talking about salvation those who believe who have faith in Christ He gave the right to become the children of God Who were born born again

Not of blood. So not your lineage not Abraham's lineage or whoever else you want to bring up not their bloodline

Nor of the will of the flesh that means not of us our desire to do anything not of the will of man, not our intellect or our character or our

Personality our philosophy or anything else but of God So even though the light did shine

We took that light Rejected it which also says the same thing says it backs it up in Romans 1 19 and 20 says that Everything that we need to know about God has been plainly shown to us through nature and yet we suppress that truth with our own

Unrighteousness. Yeah, so with that in mind Being born of God then is that call of God to the sinner?

Touching their life regenerating their soul saying this is Jesus. The Christ was died in the cross for your sins

Come to me and then just like it says in John 6 all who the Father has given to me

Will come to me. Nobody comes to me. No, unless they're drawn by the Father So I'm sorry.

I took all the verses for the rest of the program You you absolutely

Did a great thing you you took us right right into the Bible verses because we want to let God speak And that's where you took us and and I didn't have

John 1 on my list that I sent you guys And so Claude if you want to start in John 6 37 and 44

I'll do John 15 16 and then Dan if you want to do

Ephesians 2 1 through 9, we'll start there. And so Let's let's let God speak and let him talk about his irresistible grace

So in John chapter 6 37 Yeah, and then and then and 44, so we'll just read through so full context

All that the Father gives me Jesus said will come to me and whoever comes to me.

I will never cast out or I've come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me and This is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me

But raise it up on the last day Or this is the will of my father that everyone who looks on the

Sun and believes in him should have Eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day

So the Jews grumbled about him because he said I am the bread that came down from heaven They said is not this

Jesus the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know How does he now say

I've come down from heaven and Jesus answered them do not grumble among yourselves

No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day

Really? I mean all of those we have Specific I mean specific each almost each statement that Jesus makes there all that the father gives me will come to me, right?

Salvation is not as John is as Dan read in John earlier

John didn't read from the book of Dan, but Dan read from the book of John right, it's not of the will of Man, not of the will of flesh

But of God, you know So all the father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me

I will never cast out so we have you know Jesus stating that only those whom the father calls will will come to him and those who do come to him

He will not cast out. We have certainty there. He came down from heaven This is the will of him who sent me verse 39 that I should lose nothing again

Absolute certainty folks wonder can you have assurance of salvation? Yes, you can absolutely have assurance of salvation

Because salvation is of the Lord Right, and it's and it's so certain that he says all that the father has given me

I will raise up on the last day. So not one who is called of the father will be lost that puts the

If we were playing Hollywood Squares big X would flash right or is that family feud,

I don't know I'm getting my games crossed up but right that that puts the

Ixnay as they say on on prevenient grace right there. So Absolutely.

All right. Our next verse is John 15 16 But we can do the same thing to get a little context starting in Starting in verse 12

Jesus says this command This is my commandment that you love one another just as I have loved you better Love has no one than this that one lay down his life for his friends

You are my friends if you do what I command you No longer do I call you slaves for the slave does not know what his master is doing

But I have called you friends for all things that I have heard from my father I have made known to you you do not choose me

But I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and That your fruit to remain that whatever you ask of the father in my name

He may give to you this I command you that you love one another so to me this also speaks to the fact that You know, we go we go to Romans where it says and we talked about this in a previous video

We go to Romans where it talks about God for God for new and God predestined

To the to be for us to be conformed to the image of Christ and they say well, that's not election.

That's just him Predestining us To something which which that's that's correct.

You know that he predestined us to be conformed to his son And so you kind of have that here

That you should go I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit He he predestined us for that for good works for that fruit

But he also chose us and Appointed us and so you've got those two different things here you can't

Take one and leave the other Jesus speaking of both here the the election and the the appointing or the predestining of What we're going to be

What we're going to be conformed to and so Like we said before it's it's

Jesus and his work that is Doing it For us because we are unable to do it ourselves

And that's why we should celebrate so much I mean I can I can understand the frustration in the conversation because it it goes against Worldly wisdom it goes against our tradition.

I understand that but when you come to the realities of the fact that We're so undone we're

Dead in our trespasses and sin we have we are unable we have an inability to do to do anything

Not only are we undeserving but we're ill -deserving So we're in the worst shape possible that we could be in Nothing that we could do in and of ourselves and yet Jesus says

I chose you and that's all for celebration That's for lifting our voices and raising our hands and singing praises to God because of what he did

Praise God that his grace is irresistible because it just like Becky said earlier if we could resist

God we would Amen, we would do it every day every moment And that's why it has to be irresistible.

You know Romans 3 says No one seeks after God Yeah, and that's the state that we would remain in so the

Lord it's irresistible All right, then take us to Ephesians chapter 2 1 through 9

Claude you'll have Acts 13 48 and Then I'll go to Romans 9 18

Hey, Robert, we're gonna touch on John 10 John 10. We are now

All right, I just figured John John 10 is a great one for this take us to John 10, all right

John 10 it's the Jesus is talking. He's teaching. Yeah, he's teaching the

About the the Good Shepherd. He says I am the Good Shepherd. There's a gate keeps the gate

He calls his sheep sheep follow him and He knows not like these hired people.

They see a wolf. I'm not getting bit and they run away So if you look down at verse 14

Jesus Starts talking. He says I am the Good Shepherd. I know my own and my own know me

Just as the Father Knows me and I know the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep

In the minute atonement, I mean anyway moving on And I have other sheep that are not of this fold meaning

I believe Gentiles he's called talking to Jews also calling Gentiles And I must bring them also and they will listen to my voice

So there will be one flock and one shepherd Now move on to the next section

Jesus is somewhere else at winter time. He's teaching again. They ask him, you know, hey, you know, what's going on here?

Can you? You know explain to us Don't keep us in suspense. How long you know, if you're the

Messiah just tell us and Verse 25 he says I told you and you don't believe me

The works that I do in my father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe

Because That's right. You are not among my sheep and they listen to this my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me

Has sheep that are over there doing whatever sheep do usually dumb stuff

Call them. They know where the voice and they say That's where I'm supposed to be and they come

And I will give them in case you were thinking this wasn't about salvation very next verse I Give them eternal life.

They will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand My father who had given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand

I am the father or one Jesus and the father doing the same work here God the father's calling

Jesus is securing salvation. The Spirit is applying that work to their life He's calling out to a people who are his people are coming to him and as they come to him

He's holding on to him and they're not getting away. That's right. That's what we mean by irresistible grace

He has called to them with the message of the gospel the the shepherd who says I laid down my life for my sheep

The shepherd who has died for us. He calls us to himself Gives them eternal life and never lets him go so there's

It's why I wanted to stay in content it was directly relevant I'm glad you brought that up because I'm now drinking out of my

Trinitarian coffee mug tonight The multi -purpose mug

But you know as Dan real quick just as an aside, I think Dan he brought up a good a very good point there, too that a lot of folks

Assume that when they hear the term Irresistible grace that God brings us kicking and screaming to himself

But he doesn't he he makes us willing whereas before that We are regenerated before we were unwilling to come to him and not only unwilling but unable but Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God drags us kicking and screaming

It just means that it's the result of his grace

That there's there's there's not doing anything to anybody doing anything other

Than being obedient as Paul used the phrase to the heavenly call and to me it's like You know a little child

Having you have your little child close their eyes before the birthday gift Open your eyes and there's that face of joy and excitement and you know

God doesn't have to kick us in screaming when he you know unveils us and we see his grace, you know

There's no way we would come kicking and screaming because we can see see the glory of his his salvation in his work

Man, amen Lazarus Lazarus didn't look I guarantee you

For surely by now he stinketh All right, sorry, go ahead guys

What were you gonna say then? Oh I wouldn't say anything my wife's over here.

Oh Yeah, let's see that let's see that Love how

Dan was preaching fire so good. It may Claude have a taint have to tame his beard Yeah, so oh man.

I don't know what just on my screen went blank there So let me let me make it make a point here

Every podcast because my wife hates it when I do it on the podcast. I do it just to spite her in love

Mrs. Ramsey Let me let me get to Matt Matt, I Think that I'm going to get to your question and I'm going to To ask you again once we get to that part of it

I'm gonna ask you again if I'm getting to what you're asking and so we're gonna come back to that in just a minute

Rogers says I thank God that he chose me to be his elect. My salvation was the

Father Son of Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen So, let's see, where were you at Claude X 13 48 and I'm flipping over to Romans 9

And then Dan 1st Corinthians 15 the whole chapter

Actually Post -millennial is loosened Hey, that's the hope of the resurrection

I've got verse 10 and I think actually Roger Roger sent me some verses today, which

I'm thankful for I think it's verse 22 that he sent me one of the verses that he sent

I Want to follow that real quick? Yeah 20 22 23

I think those are some good verses to look at too if you're while you're in 1st

Corinthians 15 So call whenever you're ready with the axe X 13.

Yeah 48. Yep so X 13 48 and when the

Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of God The Lord and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

And let me put a parenthetical there irresistibly Yeah, and Tell me if I'm wrong in this

In my hearing of God's word there, you know previously we're talking about God's appointing and God's predestining

For Something like being to being conformed to his image or bearing fruit, but here he uses that appointment for salvation

Does that seem right am I hearing that right? Yes the appointing of those unto eternal life.

Okay Romans chapter 9 verses 18 through 19

So then he was the so then he has mercy on whom yet he desires and he hardens whom he desires

You will say to me then. Why does he still find fault for who resistus resists his will?

Almost went into the King James there resisted his will So, yeah

That comes across to me is a rhetorical question. Yeah, who can resist

God's will And the answer there of course is Paul would say no No one can resist

God's will you will say to me then why does he still find fault for who can't who resist

God's will? It's it's it's God who we think about Pharaoh He hardened

Pharaoh's heart and and the answer to that is he, you know, he hardens who he hardens

He has mercy on whom he has mercy because he's the he's the great

I am He says I am that I am. I Will what I will I do what I do and all those things kind of encompass that that name

I am I am I'm the Exist because I exist. I will what

I will I do what I do that. That's all of who God is He is the the first calls the uncaused one.

And so that's what we're seeing here. He has mercy He's he's the only being in this scenario that has the the freedom that we talked about He's the only one that has the the free will

And here we see that he has mercy on whom he has mercy on who he desires and the heart in whom he desires

And we are enabled to resist that all it's pointing to first Corinthians 15

You ready then? Yeah Um first Corinthians 15 is talking about in the first part of it's all about the gospel back up in verses 1 through Well, just about 10

He says that he wants them to know and understand exactly what the message of the gospel is

That Christ died for our sins just like the scripture said that he would

That he was buried they raised up on the third day Just like the scripture said that he would

But he not only did he do that, but he also proved himself He didn't have to but he did and he did so pretty miraculously

He went to to Peter or Cephas. He went to the 12. So well,

I mean the new 12. Yeah Redax Catch And then 500 others at the same time most of whom are still alive although some of them have died

Many appeared to James And the apostles and then he appeared to Paul and Paul says he probably shouldn't have

Because I was persecuting the church. I was unworthy. He called me an apostle I probably don't deserve that either

But he called me and then he says this he says but by the grace of God.

I Am what I am. Amen So it was Paul strong Jew Pharisee Kept the law kept tried to do everything he could to earn and maintain righteousness through keeping of the law and he said

I Was so far way off base that I shouldn't have been called at all

If anybody was kicking and screaming when he was called it was it was Paul Thank Jesus says, you know, why were you kicking against the goads preach?

Yeah. Yeah So he says but by the grace of God I am what

I am so it was the grace of God that saw Paul on the road to Damascus that Knocked him down put the scales on his eyes blinded him and Drew him over there to Straight Street in wherever town he was at and Then he was like God I don't know what to do and the guy came and touched him and the scales fell off and he saw and then he went preached

I mean Say he had the opportunity to reject that if you want

I don't see where it's at I Was called it was the grace of God that made him what he was that's right

He was passively blinded and he was passively given sight Right.

Hey, man, right The thing is that he may have not wanted all that up to that point

But the moment that the Holy Spirit touched him with the power of Christ That was all he could think of You know, that's kind of I guess that was you can say about kicking and screaming you kicking and screaming up until the point of Well, you don't want anything else

It really becomes irresistible To you the moment that that call is effectual in a different sense of irresistible not that like you're being pulled against your will but it's so beautiful and Amazing that's why would you want well like a bug to a light like like why would

I want to turn away like it's so Wonderful. That's what I'm doing. And so Paul just can't keep on preaching

And Here's here's it kind of leads in ties in the whole of the doctrines of grace here in these next few verses

Which can get confusing? Because he's some very absolute language to talk about some things where he's in a context

So I'll I'll try and lean on you guys to pick up the slack verse 22

He says for as in Adam all die so Who all was in Adam who was linked with Adam and Adam is the federal head would be mankind

So as an Adam all died So also in Christ or those who are in Christ Shall all be made alive so all those linked with Adam died either

We're going to or at least they're spiritually dead all those in Christ Alive But each in his own order

Christ the firstfruits At his coming those who belong to Christ look at what we're saying there

Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection He who went into the grave and arose

First among brothers. He became man entered into the grave as no fully God fully man

What risen from the grave first so that way when those who are his enter into the grave?

They too are brought up as no second third fourth fruits That again is

Irresistible and why is that it's because The things behind the scenes are dictating what we experience in The reality that we experience and how we perceive stuff

So here's what I mean by that because that can get no heady. I Mean that if God's doing something and it has to do with you

Then at some point in your life that thing that God did is going to manifest itself and happen in your life

So if Christ has taken your death With him into the grave and killed it and then

It's been risen again He's going to raise you up with him Yeah, and he's going to do so without You having to say in it and that's a good thing

And he's going to do so in a way that looks like There's the gospel.

That's amazing. Let me make a decision to follow Christ and place my faith and trust in him.

So It's an active Passiveness, it's a reactive

Passive -aggressive, that's not right. No The First actor in salvation is

God the reason why we act then is because Christ has acted first of the passage in Ephesians.

I was looking at verse 10 the one after Verse 9. I know that's

We are his workmanship Created in Christ Jesus. He made us created us in Christ Jesus for Purpose of good works that we should walk in them

So we were of course made To be his for by grace.

Are you saved through faith is not of yourselves and it's a gift of God Not of works unless anyone should boast.

It's not your works that caused the salvation, but we were Saved brought into salvation for the purpose that we would do the works

That didn't save us the works of Believing faith all those things that are given to us.

We then say yes That is wonderful because God has first placed those things in our heart.

His word has worked in us effectually that we We then do believe

Right, so so what do you think it might be a better term rather than reactive to use the word the term reflexive

Reaction would still be an An act on our part, but a reflex is

Okay, like somebody bangs your knee at the doctor's office, yeah like when you get your knee way Right Unconscious response, right?

It's an un well, no, no, no unconscious. That's way wrong. It's a conscious response

It in in really I think when it comes down to this the doctrines of grace is salvation in general folks really

It's really important that we understand that we are finite that God is in Salvation was

Determined in eternity past You know as far as God goes is concerned salvation is determined in eternity past and it's realized in in finite time and space right so like the our

Testimony right the day the day I got saved I can point to that day. I can point that to that Friday on March 1987 in Nashville, Tennessee Way up in that balcony

The Lord found me and he regenerated me and I was born again that day

That was that was a moment in time where I realized That I was lost and had been given have been made alive by Christ It was realized in time but determined in eternity.

That's an important distinction that we That we need to keep in mind when anytime we're tackling the issue of salvation

And then when you go over those first few verses there, I'm glad you made that Emphasis on what you were saying

Because I think some people can get confused when you talk about all are in Adam Okay, we know who that is because we all we are all are from Adam Yeah, but then when it says, you know all all who are in Christ You know will be saved of course

And so they think that the same thing applies to that statement

And so it's almost like a universalism, but but your emphasis helped us to understand that you know

All in all who were in Adam, which is all of mankind because we all descend from Adam But but not everyone is in Christ if you listen to that statement

Everyone in Christ Will be saved and you've got to emphasize the in part there not because not everyone is in Christ and I appreciate

I appreciate that emphasis there that that helped me to Comprehend it better. Um And I was thinking about why you guys were talking about how this resistance that we have

You know that I had Maybe you guys had and other people have when it comes to the the doctrines of grace irresistible grace and all these the different doctrines within doctrines of grace and the tension that you have between the

That comes with that conversation And I was curious about why maybe we can tackle this at the end and you can think about it

But but why do why do you think folks? have Have that tension and and I have

I have a guess I'm gonna throw out there So so think about that. Maybe we'll come back at that at the end

But but why is why is the tension in the air with with the doctrines of grace?

So before we run out of time, I want to hit the two Or or some opposition verses and then answer a few more questions

Let's see. My question also involves. I believe a distinction

God's sovereign will and his Perceptive will if you have time to discuss that. All right, brother

We will do our very very best to do that. Thank you for that question.

So Matthew 22 14 Let me let me touch on I'll just read it when you guys can can react to the opposition verses

Matthew 22 14 For many are called but few are chosen

So that would be an opposition to the irresistible grace many are called but few are chosen what would be your response to that Where is that?

Matthew 22 14 Gotcha Because we talked about this this effectual calling

But this seems to maybe say something different Maybe what do you guys say?

I think of anything that this passage narrows the scope particularly from the context

Itself. Okay. It's about the you know guests being invited to the wedding feast and the larger context

This is not a general issue. This is Jesus addressing the

Scribes and Pharisees in the Israel that had rejected Christ, right?

This is describing that and he's saying, you know, we have You have passed up the invitation

We are opening up the invitation to it goes to the big picture

You know of the Gentiles so on and so forth and then when he says many are called but few are chosen

That's a narrowing if anything. I think that's personally, I think that's a

That's a moot moot point and Non Argument and and I think it may lead us into it to Matt's question when we get to it 20 verse 23 verse 37 let me read that one quickly 2337 old

Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her how often

I wanted to gather your children together the way he gathers her cheeks under her wings and you were

Unwilling so Here we see Resistance Is that what we're saying?

Yeah, I think you're right. This is getting into where his his question Because what they had was a call from God to turn and repent of their sins.

I mean, that's like What like 89 90 % of the Old Testament?

You've sinned Stop that and turn to me find forgiveness in in your in your

God And they they wouldn't they they didn't

And actually that was prophesied back in Deuteronomy that you know when you enter the land your

Your people after you were they're going to reject God and they're going to be punished for it

It's happening So He looked at this nation that heard the call of the gospel outwardly and Yet it never penetrated into their hearts.

And so that's kind of the distinction that we're making with irresistible grace is that Many people all over the place are going to hear the words that Jesus Christ has died for sins

That he has entered the grave and risen again and he's he's brought salvation with him

He's conquered death held the devil and he is bringing a people to himself they're gonna hear that message of good news of eternal life and all being put right and They're going to reject it

But they've still heard it yeah now irresistible grace says that those who are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world

Will not only have a hearing in their ear, but their heart will be touched.

They'll be regenerated You know pricked by the Spirit. I don't know how you want to put it And God will put his hooks in you draw you to himself

With all the grace and love and kindness and mercy that he has Yeah, that that's that distinction that there's a difference between being being called and taught of God internally where your mind and heart are changed where you like Titus says you experience that washing of regeneration and the renewal of the

Holy Ghost or you hear it fall on deaf ears of words in One of the

Gospels a couple of them where that seed the seed of the gospel gets thrown out on the different types of soil and it goes into people's lives and Some people gets choked out by the cares of this world and some people

Thorns and some on hard ground and it just goes in one ear out the other and Then there's those who it takes root and it grows and it takes root and it grows because the

Holy Spirit has caused it to grow in their heart and the That's the distinction between irresistible grace or an internal calling of the gospel and effect effectual internal calling of the gospel and a purely

External call the gospel now oftentimes those are no They can be one in the same

No You hear a call from the preacher come and fill in your ears it vibrates in your little bones and it's in your brain

And when that happens, the Holy Spirit is taking those words the the understanding that you're getting from that preacher in and Working in you to draw you to salvation at that point

So that brings us to the other portion of this question between a sovereign will and a

I Don't know people describe it a bunch of different ways It boils down to this God has a will where we he's gonna decree something that's gonna happen

Many has a will where he says this is what's good and right and holy and this is what you should do Those don't always match up So while God has commanded men everywhere to repent

That is what we ought to do. He has also decreed that a certain people will be drawn to himself

The people who were chosen in him before the foundation of the world Were you know regenerated by the

Holy Ghost called by the gospel and saved on the last day so So I'm gonna kind of recap where we are.

So we looked at some verses that people may use to against irresistible grace But we say they're not against irresistible grace the understanding of these verses help us answer a different question

And so those that different question is what is what's leading us to?

My next question and I think it's the the question that Matt Asked and so you guys tell me if it's if Matt and I are going in the same direction and and Dan was answering these questions already

But the way I stated it was what is the difference between a general call Effectual called the gospel and Matt I think the way he turned it was the difference between internal Versus external call.

Do you guys see those things as the same? Yeah, that's and that's what actually

Dan actually used that Illustration when he talked about this the sound the preachers voice, you know echoing in your ears

That is the external call that the call that's a general again That goes back to the what

I was referring to at the beginning of the podcast tonight The that term general the general call right?

You've you've got it in our notes as well The general call goes out to everyone who who should we proclaim the gospel to?

everybody Yeah Promiscuously we ought to proclaim the gospel

Promiscuously to everyone why because I'm Paul said it

I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ for it's the power of God and to salvation to the

Jew first and also to the Greek the general call goes out and again

Back to the understanding of the finite and the infinite Can God's will be resisted?

We all know people in our lives and we've actually probably thought it too Yet in the answer

Dan said it. Yes. Yes in time It can be resisted, but it will not ultimately be thwarted because God's purpose cannot be

Diminished or changed or lessened or anything of that nature. So in time, yeah

They you know, we we in from the country. You hear folks saying are you here? Am I ran from God for years?

Yeah, but you're saved now So is the gospel irresistible the actual the answer is or is grace irresistible the answer is absolutely yes

You may have resisted it for a period of time, but you did not get away from it

Right. So in time we see this we see this worked out general calls the gospel proclamation

The effectual call the internal call is when we're regenerated

God opens our eyes opens our ears Opens our understanding so that we can we can

Respond to him appropriately And then you were touching on Matt's other question, so if you want to if you want to summarize

Your answer again because Matt's asking was the distinction between God's sovereign will and his perceptive will

Just give us a summary of what you what you were saying, but I wanted to get Matt's question up here

So people could see it and and now give it give us that answer Yeah, God's sovereign will is

It's talking about it's dealing with God's decree What is it is going to take place? What is he as sovereign said is gonna happen in the world?

That always happens And then it says a perceptive will or sometimes you'll hear it called a prescriptive will or or something like that It's talking about you know, what is

God laid forward laid forth for us as our standard What is it that we should be doing while we're here?

the think of the law of God, you know the the Ten Commandments we You know don't have any other gods before us or before him not for us

That's how we live I mean really yeah Don't murder on your father and mother those type of things.

That's what we should do and yet people people murder Know all the time. They covet what their neighbor has they steal they commit adultery they lie

All those things and those go against what God has prescribed to us as How we ought to live.

Yeah, and So Well, the things that God has told us to do aren't always done his sovereign will is always done

So what God has decreed? takes place and what God has prescribed for us really just it

It shows us where we fall Short. Yeah it and since we fall short we can look at it

It's not many steps or Turns or anything to realize?

Well, if I'm falling short of what God has told me to do then he is well within his rights to punish me

I am undone like, you know, Isaiah said I'm a man of unclean lips I've got hang out with these jokers and they're completely on what am

I I'm in trouble here. Yeah So when we look at that we we have to rely upon God's will really

God's sovereign will that he will send his son to die on the cross for sinners and Calls to us.

We we trust in him because he has done a great work. I appreciate that.

Thank you Yes By the way

That is a Greg Moore of the dead men walking podcast If you if you haven't gone over to their

YouTube page Spotify find them on Spotify subscribe like the

Greg and Jason are awesome dudes. I'm not lying to you. They are awesome

And also, let me give a public apology here. I was supposed to be wearing my brand new from the dead men walking

Podcast store my all huss no fuss shirt tonight But when I went out for Bible study earlier, it was a little chillier than I expected at first.

So I put on a hoodie So Greg, I'm still gonna wear that man.

I'm still gonna wear that Greg I really appreciate you joining us

I know we're meeting through call, but I appreciate what you guys do and thank you for thank you for being with us and it's nice to meet you and I'm I'm excited that you you're

Fellowship even with us. It's it's fantastic that these brothers are getting together and we're getting to know each other and Anything we can do to help each other's fantastic.

Matt says thanks for the clear answer I think too often people look to God's Prescriptive will and the external call to argue against the irresistible grace because as stated those things can be resistant

Grace is love you guys. Love great discussion like this. Thank you, brother. Thank you so much And I want to end with this last question

I think this question is so important and I think it needs to be a discussion that we we need to have

So I Think we can see the the effects of the resistible grace

Thinking in our methodology in our in our churches and our church services and our gospel presentations and our evangelistic outreach

The things that we do as a church as far as methodology Methodology and all goes can you guys help me flush that out?

Those there's a there's a rejection of Irresistible grace and I think it has affected how we do church our evangelistic outreach

And I think it's a negative effect Can can you explain maybe what what

I'm talking about here what you've seen in our traditional churches? I Would say hey look at girl goo in the background

That's not what I would say, but that's what I said because that's what I just saw So I would say this

I would say this the rejection of irresistible grace has affected our sermon our sermons our church services and our evangelistic outreach in this way if anything the rejection of irresistible grace

Has watered down and weakened Every part of the church and I say that because this

Because folks have gotten so caught up and wrapped up in the idea that if I can just get this person to Believe if I can just get them to lean my way if I can just get them to think in this manner

Then I can get them to quote unquote Accept Jesus The problem with that is this that if you can get a person to lean this way

Somebody else can get them to lean that way and if somebody else can can if you can convince them to believe in Jesus somebody else can

Convince them to believe in Buddha or Muhammad or any of the other false prophets out there, but only

Christ can savingly convince any man woman boy or girl of their absolute deadness and lostness and sin by Regenerating them giving them life giving them faith in grace to believe in his name

So it has done nothing but weakened and deaden

Every part of what the church is supposed to be doing in our day in our time. That's right

Claude you're the sound effects man. I guess you're gonna have to You ain't supposed to amen your own preaching

If it's the truth, you can't You're amen in the truth If you can multitask, that'd be fantastic Play the organ, that'd be great

So yeah so if I'm the if I'm the administrator here and in my mind all that's happening is

They're simply resisting God's grace then guess what happens anything goes

Yeah, and we see that everywhere anything goes in my evangelistic outreach in my methodology

In my sermons what I put up on stage the people Coming down on the zip cord through their sanctuary, you know wearing superhero costumes clowns, you know

Clown church, whatever. Yeah Anything goes because if all they're doing is resisting

I've got to you know, somehow awaken them To their resistance to come to Christ and you know, this goes back to my days in youth ministry

But you've heard the old cliche what you what you win them With is what you've won them to and you keep you've got to keep the show going on and on to keep them coming and This this doctrine of irresistible grace and unconditional election and Total depravity all the doctrines of grace really put the emphasis and The focus where it needs to be and it needs to be on the

Lord Jesus Christ himself and his work on the cross And and the Father's sovereign will

And then we can't get back to Good Expository biblical sermons

Worship of the true living Almighty God and not worship of ourselves and not not worship

Not focusing on our power our greed which all that leads to that. We see in the church.

It's so prevalent today, too. So Yeah, I see this this doctrine of resistible grace

Resisting the doctrine of irresistible grace leads us to this defective

Ineffectual Church that we have today Which is the cause of so many other problems,

I think called us frozen on us so we don't get an organ Well, I believe he just turned into a

Presbyterian Right Right here on pastor's panel.

Yes. Yeah. Call us the frozen chosen for a reason see him. He was just frozen Well, then maybe

We'll join us. He'll come back Do you have any thoughts on that that last question?

How is the rejection of the irresistible grace affected the church? Yeah, I've seen it

From two angles one when I was I was down South growing up in independent fundamental

Baptist type circles Then not I don't want to paint with a broad brush.

It's not everybody but there were times I remember hearing altar calls go on for Hour hour and a half.

It almost be like like the eyes of Baptist again anyway These these altar calls would go on for for a long time and what they would do is they would pressure people

Into coming forward and making a decision and when they would come forward and make that decision

They would come forward almost out of like well I don't want to be the only one Sitting back here in my seat and I'm gonna look funny when everybody turns around to walk back to their seat

If I'm the only one here, so let me walk forward People will think that I'm saved and I can just fly under the radar

Either that or they go down there thinking that because they went down front on something that they are now a

Christian when really they hadn't been touched with with The gospel in any meaningful way, but they think they had so anyone from that point on it tries to preach the gospel

Well, I don't need to hear that. I've already heard it before. I've already accepted it. I've already got my ticket punched among I've also seen it from The other or the effects of that type of Thing I live in upstate

New York as you all know Charles Finney went I mean it was like 75 miles north of here just went like back and forth and back and forth and he had those those revival times where he would preach the gospel and he would

Well Preach and he would call people down to the to the front on those the anxious bench to sit there and and He would know call them by name and try to get them to say sinners prayer and they would try to get them to make a decision and Right now in upstate

New York, it's hard to find a good Bible believing church I mean our little town has

Don't hold me to this for that. I can think of the town is about Forget maybe 20 ,000 people

These churches aren't bursting at the seams They're smaller Other than that you see people

You know trying to have you know, what is your idea of evangelism? Well, we're gonna have you know

We handed out water bottles that's evangelism. No, that's it's a good thing. It's good But Or or we're going to go give hugs at the pride parade

Which I've heard no, no, we're going to apologize what the church has done because we've heard this that knows like again perhaps depending on the context

Somebody did say something wrong and they should apologize for it Perhaps maybe I don't know but that it's still not preaching the gospel and so a lot of stuff gets done in the name of evangelism and isn't actually evangelism and as a result of it the

Northeast is Dark. Yeah, I mean you I work at a company that has

Well, it's really two companies together. But either way, it's got about a hundred people in it. I Don't know if there's any other believers that work at my company

There may be I just don't know everybody but you don't see believers everywhere

It's dark and part of it was the effects of Charles Finney now, there's also a lot of cults started in upstate

New York If you read kingdom of the cults by Walter Martin Every other ones like in upstate

New York down in New York City up in upstate, New York, you know, all these cults started but Yeah, actually not too far from here

Yeah, and I think it was like 45 minutes away from here There's some records saying that he was in jail at a certain time or something.

I don't Yeah, it was very close to here. Well, well, I know that you guys have heard the gospel tonight

And in this whole discussion, but to to cap it all together and to wrap it up As it was stated as we read the

Bible verses God speaking to us He said that we're all in Adam. We're all descended of Adam Physically and also spiritually because of the sin in the garden

We've all fallen and we have we are born with the sin nature We all live in the boundary of that sin nature can't do anything but sin

We are slaves to sin. That's where we are. That's who we are The Bible describes us as dead in our trespasses and sin.

No one seeks after God and that's the state of our being apart from Christ and the reality is

Bible speaks of an in eternal hell as it speaks of an eternal life and So we are sending out that general call

To everyone who will listen come to Christ Repent of your sins and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ God sent his only begotten

Son Because he so loved the world That everyone believing in him should not perish but have everlasting life

He came one of a virgin lived a sinless life Down on the cross for our sin

Was buried in The ground or in the grave for three days rose on the third day victorious over death

And then he ascended into heaven where he sits at the right hand of the Father With full authority.

He said all the authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth and so we say

Come to him in repentance and faith put your faith and trust in him and he will make you a new creature

He will bring you from darkness into light Into light and he will give you a new life

Then you will find joy everlasting that that veil will be lifted and you'll see that grace that beautiful grace that we were from earlier

So we we we send out that call to you tonight, and if you are a believer praise the

Lord Thank you for joining us and thank you for all the comments. We really appreciate it. Thank you for your prayers and support

If you would share the video so that we can Be a part of your community and getting

God's Word and his message out to your community as well With that being said Claude, would you mind to pray for us?

Yes, sir Lord we thank you and we praise you for this Opportunity that we have to even be able to approach under your throne of grace

We thank you Lord for your love and for your mercy pray that you'd help us Always to be mindful just how glorious you are in every way

We praise your name for it's in Jesus name. We pray. Amen. Amen Always remember that Jesus is

King go live in that victory You'll speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ and we hope to see you all soon