October 6, 2017 Show with William F. Hill Jr. on “Where Was God During the Massacre in Las Vegas?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on the 6th day of October 2017.

And I am delighted to have back on the program someone who I really enjoyed interviewing the first time.

Of course, I wish the circumstances were better that our guest is returning to the program because they involve one of the most horrific occurrences in the

United States history. But we have William F. Hill Jr. on the program again.

He is former host of the Confessing Our Hope podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

And he's the pastor of Fellowship Presbyterian Church in Newport, Tennessee.

And today we are going to be addressing where was God during the massacre in Las Vegas. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor William F.

Hill. Yeah, Chris, good. Always good to be with you. Thank you. And I just realized what the problem was.

I had a mute button where it shouldn't have been on when it came to the theme music of the show.

Well, before we get into our main topic at hand, tell our listeners about this new church that you are pastoring and you haven't been pastoring this specific congregation very long, but it is

Fellowship Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the PCA, also known as the

Presbyterian Church in America in Newport, Tennessee. Tell us about this congregation. Yeah, it's a church that's been around since 1985, and I was privileged to accept the call in August of this year to pastor.

It's a small church, about 50 members or so. But as the name implies, it's a very loving congregation, very concerned for the needs of one another.

And so graciously called me to come lead them, and they seem hungry for the word of God and very excited for what this church is going to be able to do,

Lord willing, in the future here in Newport. As you know, we're in the Bible Belt, so there's churches everywhere.

But anyway, we're just praying the Lord will use us to further his kingdom and bring glory to his name through our feeble efforts indeed.

Well, praise God. I'm sure the congregation there is very blessed to have you. Well, we have, as most people know, at least in the

United States, most people know there was a horrific occurrence that took place in Las Vegas.

I believe it was just this past Monday, was it not? Was it on Monday? Yeah, Sunday night.

Sunday night, yeah. And a crazed gunman or just purely an evil gunman murdered 59 people and seriously injured 527 others at a

Las Vegas hotel during a country western concert. And whenever things like this occur, usually the majority of the media, which are strong adherents to the

Second Amendment of the Constitution, and even you would have many in the pulpits of America and throughout the world trying to distance

God's involvement in things like this in any way. Many times

Christians, although they wouldn't spell it out exactly like this, but the words that they say would strongly imply they think that God was just calmly sitting by and observing like a century or something, or a voyeur, just watching things happening and not doing anything to lift the finger about it.

Or you have on the other extreme perhaps people who believe that God is all loving and merciful, but he is not omnipotent, he's not all -powerful.

They would believe like the, I don't know if you recall, Rabbi Kushner's book,

Why Bad Things Happen to Good People. Well, I think that that heretical notion of Rabbi Kushner still exists today where people in their efforts to defend the good character of God, his kindness, his love, his patience, his mercy, they go overboard in trying to defend

God and they wind up painting a picture of God that is not the God of the scriptures. But if you could tell us something about what perhaps was first going through your mind when you heard about this horrible event, and perhaps what you have been telling others about it as a

Christian pastor ever since. Yeah, it's a sadly sad event to have to comment on.

I didn't hear the news until Monday morning when I got up, and of course like many others turned on, for me it was

Fox News, and I watched for hours the reporting of it, and indeed it's tragic.

It's a horrific concept, an issue that we hope we never have to face, but within these issues coming from a

Christian worldview, a biblical worldview, we need to rustle through the issues of, you know, where was

God when this occurred? And I often tell my congregation that as we rustle through the reasoning, why did this happen?

Well, you know, the simplistic answer, of course, but it's not simple, is that we live in a fallen world, and there is sin all around us, and we too are sinners.

What we should probably ask is, why doesn't this happen more often? The scriptures are very clear about the nature of man.

Our hearts are desperately wicked. Who can understand it? We are all sinned and fallen short of God's glory, and if not for the restraining power of the

Holy Spirit who keeps the wicked actions of men in check, we would destroy ourselves just because of our sinful nature.

And so, yeah, why doesn't it happen more often? Well, because God is gracious, and He is compassionate to His creatures, but with that said, it does happen, and so the question, of course, usually comes at this point.

Well, where was God? Well, God was on His throne doing what He does, ordering and controlling and decreeing and ruling

His creation, and while we can't necessarily get behind the curtain and understand all the ins and outs as to why

God does things, and He has not been pleased to tell us that, and frankly, as Calvin said, it's dangerous to try to ask that question.

We just don't know those reasons, but we know enough to know that God is not sitting by and just watching these things happen as though He can't do anything about it.

He has His purposes, and He has His reasons. As much as I would love to commend

Kushner's book, What is Bad Things Happen to Good People?, but the problem is that there are no good people in the

Scriptures to make that clear. Now, morally, horizontally, we may be nice and good and kind to our neighbors, but in God's sight, we are all sinners, and outside of Christ, we deserve only one thing, and so, no,

God wasn't absent. He was very much involved, and He was very much ruling and reigning that circumstance that occurred.

Now, I know it's hard to swallow. I get that, and it's tragic, and it's not to...

by making those statements, we don't want to minimize the tragedy, nor do we want to come off callous or cold towards those who suffer and are suffering today.

It's a grievous thing, and then we ought to hurt just as humanity, but we ought to hurt as Christians, because people lost their lives, and death is a bad thing, and so we want to be compassionate.

We want to be gracious in our answers, but we don't want to lose sight of the reality that God is calling all men to repent, and in this situation, we again have a number of people that survived this particular event, who have again been called by God to repent.

And Luke 13, I think, is probably the classic passage in dealing with the tragic events.

The Tower of Siloam, the collapse of the Tower of Siloam. That's right, and people were asking that question, you know, who sinned more, these people, that people, you know.

In other words, this happened because they're sinners. Jesus says, no, but look, every one of them are sinners.

That's not... the issue isn't why it happened. The issue is you're alive. You survived.

You're not... you weren't part of that. Will you hear the gospel and repent? And God, again, gives grace and gives time to those who were involved in that horrible night.

I can't even imagine what was going through people's minds, but I don't know.

I think there was 22 ,000 people there, whatever the number was. It was a large crowd of people, and there was many survivors.

And Christ would say, don't worry. You can't answer the question, but you are still alive, and you still have time to repent.

And so God was on his throne, and he was ruling and reigning his creation as he does. We believe in the doctrine of providence, which means that God is governing and ruling all of his creatures and all of their actions.

And so, yes, God was very much involved. Now, saying that,

God did not work evil in this man's heart to cause him to do this. God did not tempt him to sin, and then he sinned.

But in God's secret providence, he was very much involved in the situation.

And I think that to try to remove God from the equation and pooh -pooh it and make him not who he is is really dishonor to him.

He is sovereign, and he's good, but he's just as well. And so we look at that situation as tragic as it is, but we realize that within that circumstance, men and women who are still alive, who have survived, again, have that opportunity.

Again, repent, look to Christ, because only there are they going to find true hope and true satisfaction.

Yeah, this is the answer. Go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead. No, you can go ahead.

Well, I probably answered the whole issue in a very brief period of time. It's a very—as a pastor, even, as I deal with individual tragedies within the life of the church, and we've all had those circumstances, maybe not to this scale, and it doesn't make

Fox News, but it still hurts you, and you still feel the weight of that tragedy, and the question is really, where is

God when I hurt? And I think the psalmist makes it very clear that he is there.

He's the God who loves you. He's the Father who cares for you, and he knows what's best for us. And we may not be able to explain it.

I may not be able to explain it as a pastor. Sometimes I just have to simply say, I don't know the answer, but I do know

God loves you. I know he's for you, and he's working for your good, because that's what he told me.

And so we recognize that, and we check it and keep it in balance with who he is, sovereign and just.

And—go ahead. Well, let me just—you were obviously citing from Romans 8 -28 there, but I'm assuming that you would agree with me, being theologically reformed, that that promise that Paul is making, or that he is conveying to his readers that God has made, that all things will work together for the good, that's not a blanket statement or blanket promise for all of humanity.

It's for those who are the called according to his purpose. For those who love

God and are the called according to his purpose. So not everything is going to work together for the good for every single person.

Obviously, hell would be empty if that was the case. That's true. No, that's a great point, and it's very important to keep in mind that when

Paul stated that, Romans 8 -28, we've all heard that verse ad infinitum in circumstances in our lives.

Maybe we've gotten—we've become much too familiar with it to the point where it doesn't seem to really have any impact.

It ought not ever get that far in our hearts. We must realize that as Christians, there's not a single event—it doesn't matter what it is—it is not a single event that is not working for the good of his people, to conform them more and more to the image of Christ, whether it be a good thing, or what we might identify as a bad thing, or an evil thing, or a difficult trial or circumstance.

And so we trust that by faith. We believe the Scriptures, and we believe that God is for us, and even though it may seem difficult—and it is difficult, not to minimize that—but we recognize and we have that great hope and confidence that God is not just trying to hurt us, because he can.

He's trying and working to conform us. He's going to keep his word, and he's going to do that, and so we rest in that reality.

It's not easy in the circumstance undoubtedly to rest there. I get that. I've had that experience with members of the

Church, where they go through a trial, and it's difficult, and it's hard for them to rest. They lose sleep, and they have all sorts of doubts and worries and anxieties, but as they come through it on the other end, they're able to look back and see

God's hand guiding them and working in the circumstance. So you're absolutely right. It is for God's people that they can have complete confidence in the reality that God is for them, and he's going to conform them and work all those things for their good.

Problem is, we often, what we think is good, God doesn't always get on that page.

He knows better. He knows better, and so we have to believe that and trust it. Otherwise, we have nothing to hold on to.

Exactly. Well, it seems that when you have people who are theists discussing this publicly, the theodicy is the nickname or the word describing how people who believe in God defend his goodness and mercy in the midst of not only horrible calamity in regard to earthquakes and tornadoes and floods and hurricanes, but also in the midst of a very sinful and wicked world.

There are people who take very different approaches who are theists, those who believe in God.

You have the aforementioned folks in Rabbi Kushner's camp who will say, yes,

God is all -loving, but he's not all -powerful. There are certain limitations to what

God can do. I can even remember as a teenager, probably not a very good thing to admit this, but when

I was a teenager, I was a George Carlin junkie, and I can even remember George Carlin before he became an out -and -out open atheist.

He was actually trying to defend God in some of his comedy routines, and he was basically saying

God was subject to the natural order of things, the physics and so on.

But then, if you're talking about just primarily those from conservative evangelical

Bible -believing backgrounds, you have even different views amongst us, but they typically would not involve

God being impotent in the midst of something like this. They would either say, as we do,

God is in control over all things, and all things that happen are according to his ordained plan, and therefore everything that occurs in history, whether in heaven or on earth, is a part of his decree.

We have things to explain when we use that defense, because of the fact that people immediately accuse us of teaching that God is the author of evil, that God, as you were saying before, in defending the goodness of God, you were saying that God did not tempt anyone to do these horrific things like the massacre in Las Vegas or 9 -11 or any other horrible tragedy.

But then you have the other folks that would predominantly be from Arminian or non -Calvinistic backgrounds, and even, believe it or not, the

Primitive Baptists, even though they are hyper -Calvinists predominantly in their soteriology, when it comes to Providence, they're hypo -Calvinists.

They are sub -Calvinists. They do not really live up to the historic teachings of Calvinism, because they don't believe

God is in control of every single thing that happens on heaven and on earth, that things just happen through his permission, but not necessarily because of his decree.

But you will have people who will try to defend God, and somehow they do so by elevating as this idol, really, this concept of man's unfettered free will.

And the Arminian or the non -Calvinist will say, well, the reason why things like the massacre in Las Vegas happen is because God does not wish us to be robots.

We cannot truly love God if he decrees all things, and we have to be acting out of our own innate ability to love him in order for it to be really love.

So therefore, if that is the case, the flip side of the coin is true for the non -Calvinist. You have people purely out of their unfettered free will doing these horrific acts.

Now, I think that they are, on that latter part, they are partially true. I think that mankind, as you even just said, we would kill each other out of existence as a race if God did not restrain each and every human being from the evil they are capable of.

So people are freely choosing to commit these acts of murder like the evil man in Las Vegas did.

But at the same time, there is a plan and a purpose that may be known only to God, this side of glory.

We can't totally remove God from the equation, can we? No, and I think if we try to do that, and if people run down that road, the reality is they can have no hope at all if God is not involved.

If we only want to put God in a box and say all the good things that we call good and nice and happy in our lives come from God, and all the bad things,

God's asleep, and he's doing something else, and he's not involved in his creation, then that creates a fundamental tension that we just can't absolutely resolve, because then how can we truly trust him in those difficult things?

And we're going to have difficult things in our lives, and so how do we run to a

God who is all -powerful, who is all -knowing, who is sovereign and gracious and kind and compassionate and loving and caring and pities his people, and all of these things the

Scripture clearly teaches, how can we actually trust him? I don't see how any man could trust him if he's only playing the good side of the equation, and all the bad things, the evil things that happen,

God just says, well, you know, there's not really much I can do about it. That doesn't sound like the

God of the Scriptures. In fact, it's not the God of the Scriptures, and again, it oftentimes falls into the issue of, we ask the question, why?

Well, I'd love to give that answer. I would love someone to write in and say, why did

God permit, allow, decree? Choose whatever word you like, because the answer is still the same.

I do not know. I don't know. I'm a creature, and God wasn't pleased to tell me why he does what he does.

Now, there's general principles, of course, that govern that. We have the Luke 13 passage that I've already mentioned.

We have the doctrine of providence, where God is free to govern his creatures the way he so pleases, and so we understand that, generally speaking, but the intricacies of the decree and how they work themselves out in time and history, we can't explain them.

We try, and I think that's part of the problem. We want to know more than we're actually going to know, and we fall short of that because we have finite minds that simply cannot understand

God's eternal intentions, and so Scripture says that all things work together for good for his people.

Scripture says that all things work for his glory, even evil and sin. All of it's going to work to glorify

God. Now, I can't explain that. He says it. I believe it. And, of course, a vivid example of that very thing is the murder of the

Son of God on Calvary's cross, even though it was something that was a plan of the

Father and a plan of the Trinity from the beginning, and the Son laid down his life willingly, but at the same time, there were people, there were very evil people, both

Jews and Romans, who brought that murder of the only truly completely innocent man in history on that cross at Golgotha.

Yep. No, that's a great point, Chris. It is truly the most heinous and wicked act that has ever been perpetrated on any human being, a human being that absolutely was sinless, who became sin for us.

That was our punishment. He took it. Man, whom he created, executed the

Son of God, and it was all according to God's purpose and intention. Now, Peter, in Acts chapter 2, in that wonderful Pentecost sermon, probably one of the greatest sermons ever preached in history, makes reference to the very reality that though man was the instrument by which it happened, it was all according to God's divine plan and purpose.

And as Christians, we look at that, we say, hallelujah, praise the Lord, that God purposed to redeem a sinful people.

But through, but it was through an atrocity of epic proportion, which annihilates any atrocity that we've witnessed in our lifetime or ever, the glory of God comes forth.

Our salvation is wrought in Christ who did not deserve it, all at the hands of wicked men, all at my hands.

I mean, and if we really contemplate that wicked atrocity and realize that we nailed Christ to the cross, it was,

I did it. It was my sin. I'm guilty. Yet that cross, as bad and ugly as it was, was the instrument by which

God redeemed a sinful man. And so we look back on that in Providence, and we say, praise the

Lord, what a divine plan, who could understand it? The wisdom of God frustrates the intellect and the wisdom of men.

And so I suspect that that's the problem we have with these tragedies, Las Vegas, the hurricanes in Houston, the hurricane in Florida, and on and on and on it goes all the way through history is we try to understand and explain what we just simply can't.

And I think it's humble, and we ought to be humbled by the simple reality that we just don't know why.

We can't explain every nuance. You know, Paul in Romans chapter 9, again it's a different subject certainly, but there

Paul is arguing for the doctrine of election there. He makes it very clear that God chooses whom

He's going to choose. But then, you know, he anticipates these questions that we're asking today.

And Paul answers the question, who are you, old man, to question

God? And we must come to a point where we realize, especially as Christians, we must come to a point where we realize there is absolutely no way for us to explain everything that God does in time and history to our satisfaction.

We would be God ourselves if we could do that. Well, that's exactly the problem. And I think, you know, when we try to do that, you know, again,

I referenced Calvin earlier, and I forget where he said it. Who knows? I heard it from somebody, read it somewhere.

But he says, you know, it's inherently dangerous for a creature to try to get behind the curtain of the infinite, infallible, omnipotent

God. Job wrestled with the very problem, you know, and almost came to the point of desperation, and God met him in the whirlwind, and did

God ever tell Job why? No. He never told him. Job went to his grave probably never knowing of the events that happened in the courtroom of heaven, that Satan came to accuse him, and God, in his sovereignty, in his decree, gave

Job over to Satan, and in chapter 2 of Job, he flat out says to Satan, why have you caused me,

Satan, to move my hand against Job without cause? God takes responsibility for the actions.

He is the mover and the shaker. He is the first cause of everything that we do. Yet, Job never, probably never knew that that exchange happened, and God never explained it.

He just told Job in no uncertain terms, I am God. You are a creature.

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. We can pick up right where you left up there with Job.

If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. If you have a question of your own, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

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But other than a personal or private question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with William F. Hill on the question, where was

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forward slash iron sharpens today hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am

.com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back and that very voice that you just heard the voice of pastor bill shishko well you can hear that voice in person as he opens up the word of god at the next iron sharpens iron radio pastor's luncheon this is a free event from beginning to end there will be nothing sold there there is no registration or admission fee this is a free event that has been going on since the 1990s the brainchild of my precious late wife julie now in eternity with christ who came up with the idea that instead of exchanging christmas gifts every year we would put our money towards treating my pastor friends to lunch since i had so many of them being in the christian radio industry and that just carried on over the years and grew to such a large event that we had to get corporate sponsorship for it and the the next pastor's luncheon is thursday october 26th it's going to be held at the carlisle fire and rescue banquet hall here in carlisle pennsylvania it's going to be held from 11 a .m

to 2 p .m featuring as i said pastor bill shishko a mutual friend of mine and my guest william f hill uh pastor bill shishko retired from the pastoral ministry at the orthodox presbyterian church of franklin square and now a regional home missionary for reformation metro new york he's also an adjunct faculty member at the greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor south carolina where our guest william f hill was at one time the host of their podcast at that seminary confessing our hope and not only are you going to be fed spiritually by pastor bill shishko and physically through delicious food all for free you're also going to be leaving there if you are attending this event if you are a man in ministry attending this event you're going to be leaving there with a very heavy sack of brand new free books donated from major christian publishers all over the united states and the united kingdom nearly every major christian publisher has donated every year to this event and so i hope that you can make it if you want to attend the free pastor's luncheon in honor of the 500th anniversary of reformation day uh featuring a special guest steven bloom steve bloom who is pennsylvania state representative now running for congress a true born -again believer in christ a man who was a truly impressive uh an unwavering and unashamed faith in christ that he brings with him into the public square even as a politician uh and he's not uh just spewing out platitudes to appease christians to get their votes this is a true man of god i've had him on this program on several occasions i look forward to having him back and i am truly impressed with this brother in christ but anyway if you'd like to register for the pastor's luncheon send me an email to chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com and put pastor's lunch in the subject line and you can also send me an email right now if you have a question for william f hill jr of fellowship presbyterian church in newport tennessee on the issue where was god during the massacre in las vegas our email address again is chris arnzen at gmail .com

please give us your first name city and state and country of residence only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter and before the break we were talking uh you were mentioning job and so on and job never really learned specifically any reasons why god allowed him to go through such horrible suffering other than the fact that the devil was was arrogantly telling god that he could make basically joe buckle at the knees and cave in if he were allowed to torment him and god was progressively giving him uh different levels of freedom that were increasing on on how he was tormenting uh joe but if you want to pick up where you left off there yeah i think it's something that i probably neglected to say and then and really i think it's vitally important when we're talking about these kinds of difficulties of course i i didn't know anybody in las vegas i've had to my knowledge in my life i haven't experienced any personal tragedies of that extent and we need to be careful as christians and i've read articles online from well -meaning christians i guess and i think we need to be very careful as we articulate and seek to defend the honor of god and who he is as the scriptures clearly tell us we need to be careful that we don't become insensitive buffoons and and run around with our theology whacking people over the head there's a time to deal with those issues but sometimes there's a time to sit and listen to the grieving and the hurting and um and and not say much uh i'm reminded of a story of a man who lost his family in a horrific car accident and i mean one day he wakes up with a family that that night he goes to bed without one now i have no idea what that must feel like um but i remember reading as he detailed as the funeral for his entire family wife kids all killed that many came and and and yammered in his ear and gave the platitudes you know all the things that we should say because we're trying to figure out what to say because we don't know what to say and so we fill the air with words and the man writes i wish they would all just gone away because he hurt he grieved it beyond understanding and then a man came and sat with him didn't say a word just sat with him and that was the man he wanted to stay and i think in these kinds of tragedies uh that there's a theological issue we need to address it but there's also a pastoral element and we want to be careful that we're not um beating people over the head um we want to listen and we want to hear their hurt and their pain and their sorrow and though these well -meaning christians out there have written some articles and they've said some things that well i wish they didn't um but the fact that there's a time for it and i don't know if this is the time i mean i know we're dealing with it but i think the reality is just like job who suffered and listened to his friends and they all try to fill the air with great advice and they weren't all that helpful for him and i think as christians we should pastorally remember that this is a fellow human being outside of christ notwithstanding there's still a fellow human being made in the image of god and we need to love them and we need to find some pastoral care and concern and at the right time as the spirit leads us we address the you know the substantive issues of these matters and no god was not absent we defend that with veracity we defend it with great strength but um at the same time we want to show them that god is gracious and he's so loving and compassionate he calls people to repent he calls them to turn to him because only there is there any hope so i wanted to say that i was thinking about it on the break and and and sometimes i think as reformed christians we can come off a little too callous uh we get behind our doctrines we hide there and we forget the human element and the reality that um we need to love these people as hard as it may be at times but we need to have pity on them and and have great compassion for them so with that said yeah job is uh i think a classic study of suffering and trial um god clearly takes responsibility for it i've had numerous discussions with my father indeed who believes it was some kind of cosmic battle between god and satan of course that's ridiculous um it's just god is not in a contest with satan um one little word will fell him there's no battle um as luther penned in this great hymn so but but job did experience great suffering and and he asked the questions that we all ask and um why how come why me and and i just find it remarkable that when god met job in the whirlwind he didn't he didn't tell him why uh he basically said i'm god where were you job when i created the world where were you job when where were you job and and and it's humbling to realize that a god who created the universe he's not and we're not deus we believe he's involved but it's humbling to realize that as creatures uh we are at we are his servants not the other way around and and that's hard to for our prideful sinful state to acknowledge in the middle of difficulty again there's a time for that but um so we we do defend god's honor and his glory and his sovereignty um but at the same time we want to be pastoral about it we don't want to be callous these people who are suffering today because of vegas and those in houston and those in florida and wherever else it's real pain and it's real hurt and um the best thing we can give them is an ear and then at the right moment the right time given christ um to listen to you and um anyway i had to get i had to get that out there i'm sure you agree completely with that oh sure it's very sad for me to to read some of these articles online and some of the you comments that have been made with i don't know if that any thought went into them it scares me sometimes they they work against the gospel in these issues um yeah and very often very often when people are callous during um horrific events like this that draw national attention um they're usually when when they are uh when you have a fundamentalist perhaps or uh some uh prophet uh or self -proclaimed prophet from the pentecostal uh background or whoever it might be who they use these tragedies to point the finger at sinners who happen to be involved in a different sin than they are and they will say this is this is more often involving uh things that have been known as natural disasters like hurricanes tornadoes floods earthquakes um they will say that oh this is god uh punishing the homosexual community of this particular area or they might even say even though this was not a natural disaster quote quote and but in vegas some might say well look at all the the gambling that goes on and the prostitution in las vegas and um people squandering away their livelihoods uh gambling and people going there to watch very uh sexually provocative shows with women who are barely wearing any clothing at all uh this is why god would permit such a thing to happen but of course you you'll never hear them say things like uh well it's because of the churches in that area that uh were guilty of sin of pride and who weren't uh reaching out to the lost the way they should have you'll never hear that kind of a a confession or or you'll rarely hear it anyway uh we have to be very careful don't we even those of us that believe that god is always in control and is personally and intimately involved in everything that occurs whether good or bad uh we have to be careful not to be speaking as a spokesperson for god as if we actually know the specific reasons why a certain calamity or tragedy occurs don't we have to be very very leery of that yeah you know i think you're absolutely right and i think it's it's really foolhardy uh to try to pin uh any tragedy vegas or whatever natural or otherwise on a particular circumstance or particular issue i the fact remains that um god does judge sin he does he is just um and he does it in his time and his purposes and his ways and and we we submit to that we don't have much choice and um but the but the fact is we can't get behind the question the answer uh while god sent god sent that hurricane to houston because x we can say that god did that because he's still calling people to repent and he's doing it through natural disasters he's doing it through vegas he's doing it through all these circumstances um those who will remain those who are alive those who survive uh have another opportunity to hear the gospel of jesus christ and repent um you know god is ultimately going to judge sin forever and completely and um now but we got to be careful that we don't dogmatically stand on a position that says well god judged by vegas because gambling because of prostitution because wait pick one that maybe it was all of them maybe it was none of them i i i don't know and um god knows and and i guarantee this because i know the god of the bible what he did was good and right and that flies in the face of our mentality that says that defines good and evil on our terms instead of looking at it from an eternal perspective and again we can't know just exactly what god was doing but we do know because what christ taught in luke 13 i keep coming back to that because it just seems so appropriate um that the question that god wants us to answer is not why he did this the question he wants us to answer is i'm still alive am i going to repent will i look to christ another opportunity that afforded me another day on this planet where i can repent of my sin and find hope in christ he will receive any who comes to him by faith believing he will never turn one away and that's the survivors of las vegas those in houston who went through that horrific period of time and those in florida and not wherever and and anybody listening today who's never even experienced a tragedy you have been hurt you've just heard the gospel again will you repent before it's too late so yeah you're right chris i think we have to be very careful that we don't we don't try to uh tell the world god did this because as though we actually know we know that he's sovereign we know that he's in control we know he's on the throne we know that he's actively involved in his universe his creatures we know that he does all things well uh scripture tells us all of these things but let's remember the god who does all things well wiped out the world with a flood the god who does all things well sent the king into into a desolate desolate place as a wild beast in the forest because that king refused to acknowledge the reality that god alone is sovereign and so uh we must keep that intention all the time but let's not pretend we know the mind of god in these kinds of matters we know that he judges sin we know that he's just we know that he's good and so he's working uh he's he's working and and that's evidence of it and even though we call it evil and bad and it is horrible but god is working and uh the the the 22 000 people that that survive whatever the number is uh really need to ask them question i'm i'm alive today i could have been dead will i repent will i acknowledge that the god of the i think that's the lesson we really should press to people when these things that's not trying to tell people because homosexuality or because of prostitution it could have been all those things it might have been none of those things but let's tell them that the real hope is not trying to get behind the curtain the real hope is will you turn to christ amen so here amen and there are people that will no doubt be bristling uh even conservative uh professedly bible believing christians who believe in the inerrancy of scripture will be bristling at the very notion of god being actively involved in horrific events like that and say this is heresy this how could this possibly be you men are insane and or your heretics or you're both well i i always point and i know that some of my listeners might be weary of me continually going to this passage because i do go to this passage uh very often when we are discussing something like our theme today about the theodicy about the uh goodness of god in the midst of evil if you go to second samuel chapter 12 where you have nathan the prophet is basically uh uh god is speaking through nathan to david after david has committed adultery with basheba and had her husband uriah murdered on the battlefield to cover up his adultery with the sheba after she became pregnant uh from david and um the the very words of god speaking through david uh through i'm sorry through nathan to david beginning in verse 9 of 2nd samuel 12 god says why have you despised the word of the lord by doing evil in his sight you have struck down uriah the hittite with the sword have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the sons of aman now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house because you have despised me and have taken the wife of uriah the hittite to be your wife thus says the lord behold i will raise up evil against you from your own household i will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight indeed you did it secretly but i will do this before all israel and under the sun so there you have god saying that he is going to be doing these things that even involve adultery uh that david's wives will lie with his companion and god is saying i will do this so this is and we can't claim that we know all the the nuts and bolts of of god's but he is uh clearly declaring that he is even sovereign uh over the chastisement against david for these horrific sins he committed and even though the chastisements themselves involve damnable sin he has ordained these things to happen yeah that's a tough passage um i can't imagine how david was feeling that day uh probably pretty crushed uh just a guess you know it's uh but you're absolutely right and god is declaring to david i think the remarkable part of that about that passage is in the face of all of these things david maintained david was contrite he had contrition he repented he looked to the god of heaven and earth and knew where his sin that he had committed this and he had brought this this this judgment upon him and that's a you know that's one of those specific cases in scripture where we know why we know why god did what he did he tells us plainly this is why i'm doing it and um it would be nice i guess if we had books that that unfolded god's eternal purposes and in events like houston and florida and vegas and wherever and then we could explain we could read about it like we read about david's and understand that but i think the principle that we need to keep in mind is that god is not asleep he's not aloof he is not inactive he is working and uh though we don't always know how that's going on how that unfolds um you know we know that uh we know that he is and we have to we have to go to our midway break right now uh if anybody else by the way we do have several people waiting uh patiently at least i hope they're waiting patiently to have their questions asked and answered and we'll get to you as soon as we come back from the break but if anybody would like to join them and get in line with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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that's solidrockremodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lucans pastor of providence baptist church we are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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that's chef exclusive .com hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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for their 50 off sale on reformed expository commentaries in hardback including the new one by a fellow pca minister richard d phillips on the book of revelation when i say fellow i mean fellow pca minister uh in regard to my guest today william f hill jr not me i'm a reformed baptist but uh if you want to get nobody's perfect if you'd like to take advantage of that uh sale uh go to cvbbs .com

cvbbs .com and make sure you mention uh that you heard about the sale from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio uh before we return to our discussion with william f hill hill jr we have some important announcements to make in regarding to special events first of all the quaker town conference on reformed theology is coming up uh this november 17th through the 18th at the grace bible fellowship church in quaker town pennsylvania this is going to be on the theme for still our ancient foe obviously a line referring to satan from that classic reformational hymn a mighty fortress by martin luther the uh conference includes speakers such as kent hughes peter jones tom nettles dennis cahill and scott oliphant if you would like to register for this conference go to alliance net .org

alliance net .org click on events and then click or click on quaker town conference on reform theology and then coming up in january from the 17th through the 20th the g3 conference returns to atlanta georgia the g3 standing for grace gospel and glory on the theme knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship the 17th will be exclusively a spanish -speaking edition of the conference and the 18th through the 20th will be specifically an english -speaking edition of the conference speak featuring such speakers as baucom phil johnson keith getty hb charles jr tim challis josh bice james white tom askell anthony methenia michael kruger david miller paul tripp todd friel derrick thomas martha peace and justin peters if you'd like to register for the g3 conference go to g3 conference .com

g3 conference .com and uh please if you are registering for any of these events or whether you're just contacting these organizations who are running them to find out more about these events please always remember to mention that you heard about the events from chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio last but not least i must perform that on very uncomfortable task of rattling my tin cup and begging you for money the advertisers who have kept iron sharpens iron radio on the air for so long have urged me to make public appeals for donations and advertising and i finally succumbed and caved into their urging out of respect for them and out of respect for their giving so faithfully to iron sharpens iron radio through their advertising dollars if you love this program you don't want it to go off the air if it edifies you if you are blessed by the guests and topics well please consider donating to iron sharpens iron radio so that we don't disappear uh first of all as i always try to remember to tell you never ever ever siphon money out of your uh giving to your local church that you're accustomed to uh never take food off of your family's dinner table providing for your family and providing for your church the church where you are a member are two commands of god providing for iron sharpens iron radio is not a command of god but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands then please consider giving to iron sharpens iron radio go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

click on support you'll be given an address where you can mail a check for any amount made out to iron sharpens iron radio and if you want to advertise with us as long as whatever it is your advertising does not militate against the theology expressed on iron sharpens iron radio then please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line whether it's your church your parachurch organization your business your professional practice if you're a doctor a lawyer a dentist a chiropractor whether you are having a special event that you want to advertise as long as it's compatible with what we believe here in iron sharpens iron doesn't have to be identical but needs to be compatible then i would love to work with you on an ad campaign because we certainly could use the advertising dollars so send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line well now we are back to our discussion uh with uh william f hill jr uh and uh as i said earlier pastor hill is not only the former host of the confessing our hope podcast of greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor's south carolina he's also the pastor of the fellowship presbyterian church in newport tennessee which is a congregation in the pca or presbyterian church in america and we are addressing where was god during the massacre in las vegas send us an email if you have a question at chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if indeed you live outside of the good old usa and we have uh some listeners who have written in questions uh and i couldn't help but chuckle a little bit uh regarding our first question because we are indeed guilty of something that our listener in tuscaloosa alabama is bringing up in his question because he must have written this before we brought it up he says uh every time there is a new shooting or natural disaster i set my stopwatch to see how long it will take for the inevitable tower of salome tweets and facebook posts to emerge it never takes long i'm wondering if your guests could comment comment on the appropriateness or inappropriateness of this go -to passage it bothers me because number one none of the people doing the tweeting are jesus and number two they always seem to miss jesus's point in invoking that event and that is ted and tuscaloosa alabama well obviously you believed and we believed it was appropriate to bring up because we did but i don't think that it would be written in the god -breathed pages of scripture if we were not to appropriate it and use it for reasons such as this uh i don't think that we misused the passage but if you could comment yeah no it's a good point i mean it's a good statement i don't necessarily agree um however i think you you've already said it you know god in his infinite wisdom had it inspired you know jesus didn't back away from these difficult questions uh and he and he answered that question exactly what of course says the son of god he's going to answer it perfectly and i realized that as ministers of the gospel we're not we're not jesus but we do minister under his authority and the authority that has been given to us and we and we derive that authority in our in our proclamation our declaration is the inspired word of god and here in that text we do have a tragedy that affected people and it obviously it affected them greatly because they were clamoring as to the reasons like we often do in circumstances and though the issues may not be identical but the reality is that christ did not tell them why it fell he told them you are alive and remain and you need your time and so he doesn't back away from those hard issues and again i think as christians we ought not to either again i think there's an appropriate time and an appropriate way to do it and and the the man's right you could set your stopwatch and guarantee that luke 13 is going to come up within 10 seconds of the event and um but it's there the word of god has given to us to illumine our path to lighten our way and to inform us of of of things in this world and again jesus didn't back away from it but he instead responded directly to it i actually preached through this text after an event i forgot what it was and um highlighted you know the reality that these two events that are cited in this these eight verses um are tragic and awful um but christ stays on point and that is you you who are alive and remain need to look to christ you need to look to him and the dead are dead and that all sounds crass i don't mean it that way but they're in eternity you are alive and remain don't worry about the reasons are you going to look to christ i think that's absolutely the point of that text and um and so with all due respect to the to the if i understood the question correctly um i do think that's the point of the text and i think it's important for us to always remember that now the timing of it when to say it when to okay that you know requires i think a certain degree of wisdom uh but we are talking about it today so um inevitably it's going to come up yeah and of course you're going to have a great uh portion of professing christendom that is never going to bring up uh the the the uh challenge and the chastisement to repent uh so uh even though people may use a lot of verses in the bible as placards as easy as easy go -to things just to throw out there uh your repentance is not the the choice uh or the uh the uh the the most often repeated word within christendom in the united states or the world for that matter in the 21st century so at least we've been bringing up that very important aspect uh about repentance and um i know that uh well i don't know i don't know specifically if if ted in tuscaloosa unless he wants to send another email clarifying but he says they always seem to miss jesus's point in invoking that event he may be ted may be referring to the fact that many hearing jesus did actually likewise perish when the temple was destroyed in 1870 right uh perhaps that's what ted is referring to i don't know but uh well i just brought that up ted so uh but thank you very much ted for uh joining us on the air with a with a question and keep spreading the word about iron shepherds iron radio in tuscaloosa alabama and beyond uh let's see we have a listener in uh slovenia uh joe in slovenia has a question for us and uh a uh let's see here it is dear brother chris one of the great aspects of your show is that you are so adept at addressing a very wide array of topics we are always blessed when you deal with tragic events biblically and compassionately hoping that this question isn't too construed to be uncaring i'm curious about how we find ourselves unpacking this biblical theology concept repeatedly any realistic look at the whole of the planet reveals there are disastrous events happening all over the globe every day how is it that as a nation every time one of these events happens at home we all of a sudden get interested in determining god's presence or absence in it again and again and again what is it about the human condition that makes this a burning issue that seems novel when in fact it is the norm of human experience since the fall why do we seem to have collective amnesia between the occurrences of these atrocities hopefully i'm not considered heartless i hope you understand the dilemma i'm pondering that's joe in slovenia yeah it is a dilemma isn't it um it'd be very easy to just say i don't know um i don't know um i think because of sin and because of the fact that we are sinners we forget we're forgetful creatures and um he's absolutely right atrocities and wicked actions of humanity and nature and earthquakes and volcano these are happening all the time um we think of the atrocity of abortion the united states um happens every day and we just would in some sense we sadly you know you don't read about you don't watch that on fox news they're not doing 24 hours a day on abortion issues um and that's a worst tragedy um i don't know what the answer is there i i think in some sense we are short -sighted and we do forget and and sometimes where we are shaken out of our slumber and are reminded that there is a god in the heavens you know we can pretend that that god doesn't exist and people can pretend that he that he's not there um but but the scriptures are very very clear that we know that there's a god and we suppress that truth and unrighteousness and i think god in his divine plan every once in a while in our own backyard reminds us once again who's in charge and who's the boss and yeah i just don't i don't know i don't know why um i don't know why that happens it's uh i think you know national attention obviously to this event is because it happened in our country it's probably not being talked about as much in some other country undoubtedly um it happened in our backyard and and so we're we're painfully aware of it because it's so close to home 9 -11 again uh it happened in our backyard and and you know we don't have the same reaction necessarily to other nations we ought to uh but it hits so close to home that you know it kind of shakes us out of our slumber and causes us to ponder the reality that we're made in god's image and we're made to worship him we're made to honor and adore him and um we're again reminded uh that's why we're here and but short of that i don't i don't really know the year i don't really know it's a good question i i don't like questions like that it's hard to answer them well i i could tell you uh why i might be more likely to do a program on my show after a either a natural disaster or the atrocity that an atrocity like that which occurred in las vegas here on american soil i might be more likely although i don't think i exclusively have done that i might be more likely to do a program on it because i know that most of the people listening to my show are more likely to know people that have been affected personally by those things uh but i even i even i do have a global audience i'm not taking uh uh anything away from my listeners all over the world but they tend to be obviously in english -speaking countries or the or they were the were laying where the english language is at least common those listeners that i have overseas so uh that's the only thing i could say about my personal my as far as me personally addressing this on my show and other instant incidents that occur on american soil it's because i'm trying to touch the life or lives of people that may know people or may be personally involved in the uh the the horrific occurrence and and two it's also fresh in the people and um in some sense it's not a perfect parallel but um i mentioned you off air that that we had a death in the church this morning uh actually late last night and um and it changed my approach to sunday uh the sermon i was going to preach in the evening i changed because i'm going to have a congregation that's going to be hurting i'm going to have a congregation that's going to be uh smarting a little because of the death of a loved one that that was a member of church for a very long time and so i want to bring hope and i want to bring comfort i want to bring encouragement to them that that god loves them god's in charge god's sovereign and this this this sister in christ is with the lord and they need to hear that even though they they know it they need to hear it and they need to hear it from their pastor and so um i think because it's fresh in the minds in the minds of people um i think it's appropriate to deal with it again tactfully carefully with compassion and care but at the same time deal with it because we're all thinking it right we're all thinking it whether we admit it out loud we're thinking these things especially as christians we're thinking these things and and how can we address them biblically and correctly to help people who desperately need to hear um about the god in heaven that they they know exists but they they suppress that information and refuse to acknowledge it so i think it is absolutely appropriate um and but but the right he's right i mean there's tragedies happening all over the planet even at this moment so and one thing i'd like to get back to uh because it's our theological camp that believes that god is in sovereign control over all things uh there is that problem we are always faced with uh not necessarily when it is a quote quote natural catastrophe like the recent floods and hurricanes and things that we've heard about and some of our listeners have actually been uh living through and surviving through uh but when it comes to the evil acts of wicked men like in las vegas how is god in control over these things or even in in regard to these the citation i i made from second samuel where you have god saying that i will do these things and he's referring to david's wives committing adultery in the sight of all of israel as a chastisement against david for his own adultery and murder of of uriah the hittite um how do we how do we separate god being guilty the of the being the author of evil while at the same time firmly being committed to the idea that god is every second of the way in control in fact he has ordained everything that has come to pass some non -calvinists will say yeah romans 8 28 is is true because he's just using something that was happening apart from his decree uh he was just turning the evil event towards a good direction uh but uh we who are calvinists don't believe that god just merely takes a an evil occurrence uh and and throws a lasso on it and then turns it into a good thing uh we believe that he decrees everything that has come to pass uh so how do we separate those things as far as god's sovereignty over uh horrific evil acts and his being his being uh separate from tempting the the culprits involved in those from actually doing them why don't you ask me a really hard question you know i don't want to say it's a conundrum because it's not the bible clearly teaches that man is responsible that man is uh is able and and i'll say free to do what he's capable of doing now as a calvinist um which forget the title calvinist okay the bible clearly teaches the subject that god is ultimately sovereign over every act of humanity he is the first cause of everything that happens and within the second cause that's you and me uh everything falls out according to his purposes and so yet he is without sin and he cannot of course be with sin he would be god um so we as creatures have freedom to operate within our domain of of ability and the fallen creature the unregenerate creature can only do evil in god's sight all the time it doesn't make any difference what the act is it is filthy rotten ugly in god's sight only the regenerate man can do good works and those good works are only wrought because of christ and they're only seen through christ but man is responsible man has been called by god both through general revelation his creation his acts and power nature the sun setting and rising at the same same place in the sky every single day okay don't i know it's not the exact same spot but you get the idea i don't look up in the west in the morning and find the sun it's in the east and that's where it belongs and so god's habits of nature and the things that he does all are calling and crying out to humanity that god exists and they need to repent and then he's given us his word and special revelation he's given us the inscripturated word the mind of god telling us who he is and what he requires of man now sinful man is going to reject that they're going to say no i don't need that i'm my own god that was the sin of the garden and then go their own way and receive therefore the due consequence of their actions where there are some that god in his sovereignty and his grace chooses to redeem and save out of a sinful sea of humanity because he purposed to do it in love as ephesians 1 tells us and so there's only two kinds of people in the world there's god's people and everybody else and so how does god keep himself from getting his hands dirty is that the question he didn't do it god did not pull the trigger god did not work evil in the man's heart god did not tempt him to sin yet he decreed in the secret councils of his purposes that this man would commit this act again we're right back to the same question of well why i don't know that answer and i don't think any christian knows that answer but god is sovereign and we rest in the reality that whatever he decrees is good and he does it first for his own glory to bring glory to himself and it you know even the rocks will cry out right if man won't acknowledge god and so consider the garden of eden i mean that's i guess the greatest example of this whole issue right adam and eve in the garden of eden and and all the sin nature and uh they choose willfully adam chooses willfully to rebel against god now was god caught by surprise was he shocked out of existence because adam did this horrific thing it was horrific let's face it look around all of creation groans because of adam's fall and we are all products of that fall but god purposed it before the foundation of the world that this would happen that he would send jesus christ to save sinners and god is not guilty god cannot be guilty because god cannot know sin and cannot be near sin so yeah i don't know the answer uh clearly he he said that to david uh he used he used wicked nations to judge his people and then he punished them after they did it so um i think it just kind of goes to the reality that god sits in the heavens and he laughs at the foolishness of men who try to unravel and try to dethrone who he is and you know maybe someday we'll know and understand all that i don't know i think we'll spend eternity trying to figure it out and learn um but yeah i don't have an answer yeah and i think when we're when we're in eternity we're going to be experiencing such indescribable bliss and joy that we're not going to care anymore about these things about yeah people say that you know and it's probably very true i mean we're guessing of course at this point but you know i think we're going to have all eternity to learn learn about god because he's infinite and um and he's a whole lot bigger than than we comprehend um we know what he's like because he's told us but i don't think he's told us everything he's only told us what we need right and whatever it is we don't know will not contradict what we do know and so um how god chooses to inflict atrocities on people and not get his hands dirty well you got to start with the doctrine of god he is holy uh he cannot sin it's not possible he would not be god and so he does it through the second causes of man who who operate within their realm of wickedness their sin and love to themselves they are going to commit these atrocities and so that's what happens god does not do it in the sense that he puts the pulls the trigger and works evil in any human being uh he doesn't need to we have enough evil in ourselves to commit all sorts of atrocities and yes could he stop it sure and and the question i would love to ask somebody is how many times has god stopped the wicked acts of men that you don't know about you see it's a question you can't answer right there could be a zillion today alone there could be there could be countless acts the wicked intentions of men that got interrupted and stopped in silence before they could carry it out now we can't answer that question because it didn't happen but we always seem to run to that question when it does happen and we fail to recognize that god is involved in every issue not just the wicked things that we see going on but but he stops the wicked intentions of men as well and so it just speaks to the nature of who god is we are merely a creature and we bow at his feet and humble reliance upon him um and but yeah i don't think i answered your question i don't know if it can be answered to be honest i i think it's just there are conundrums there are things in scripture that you read them you go huh god just commanded that this is going to happen which is in direct contravention it seems to what he commanded in the ten commandments and all these things it's like well you know i don't know well it's even just like the apostle paul uh when he uh knowing the response of those that would hate god's decree of election that he before uh jacob and esau were born and before they had any opportunity to do anything good or evil god loved jacob and hated esau and the response that the apostle paul knew would come out from the hearts of those who hate that concept uh well and how can god find fault because who can resist his will paul doesn't go into a step -by -step intricate and detailed explanation of this he says who you owe man to talk back to god doesn't the potter have the power of the clay to do whatever he wants um he doesn't really explain the issue other than that god is sovereign and i think because we are rational creatures and we were made that way which separates us from the animals we tend to want to know answers that we can't answer i mean i i think that's just the nature of how man is and they want to rationalize they want not rationalize like justified but they want to understand to its intricate detail why this and this and this happens and i don't know there's things in my life that are not tragic and pretty pretty simple and tame and not going to be on any news program that if i think about it long enough i'm probably going to have the same question why didn't why wasn't i involved in that car accident when that guy was five cars ahead of me why why why this why this why this well i don't know i i know that god is sovereign amen and i know that that there's going to be questions that we're going to want answers to and we sometimes have to just recognize that god is not obligated to tell me or tell anyone why he does what he does he's told us enough to know um but he doesn't always unfold the curtain and say see now you know it reminds me of a time chris where i was um it was many years ago long before the ministry and and uh a friend of mine uh was driving a car uh snowy road in rochester new york and he went to stop at a stop sign he didn't stop he slipped through the intersection and got creamed by another car knocked him into the ditch and killed him he was 17 years old and his sister his sister was a few years older than him i got to the hospital and she wanted to talk to me so we went for a walk and and she asked me the question that anybody any natural person is going to ask why did this happen and all i could say to her is i don't know and i think as christians we probably need to get our mind around the fact that we don't know everything about what god's doing we know enough to know that he's good and just and right he can do no wrong and every good and perfect gift comes from him we may not be able to explain the intricacies to our satisfaction and that's i think a lot it has a lot to do with the fact that we are fallen creatures and we really want to know the answers that god is just not pleased to tell us and if he told us everything we wouldn't need faith by the way a very close friend of mine pastor al stein who was actually a thoroughgoing five -point calvinist uh at the same time a pastor in the assembly of god denomination believe it or not uh not only not only was it was he a pastor but he was a bishop he was an overseer in the assembly of god and but he died tragically in the same nearly the same manner that your friend died in in fact not far from that area and he was driving a convertible and skid on the ice and flipped but um when we come back uh to or should i say when we come back from our station break perhaps we could talk a little bit about genesis 50 and joseph and his brothers because i think it relates to this if anybody would like to join us on the air before we run out of time our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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that's linbrookbaptist .org hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is chris arnzen and don't forget about the pastor's lunch in the iron sharpens iron pastor's luncheon featuring pastor bill shishko whose voice you just heard uh the host of a visit to the pastor's study and also regional home missionary for reformation metro new york and faculty member of the greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor south carolina he will be the keynote speaker thursday october 26th 11 a .m

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line uh we are back with uh william f hill jr uh the pastor of fellowship presbyterian church in newport tennessee which is a congregation in the pca presbyterian church in america we are addressing where was god during the massacre in las vegas and our email address if you'd like to join us on the air of the question before we run out of time is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com before i go to a couple more listener questions i wanted you to address the story of joseph uh many of our listeners may be aware of this where out of jealousy beat him they throw him in a pit and show their father his coat of many cover color is covered with blood and he thinks that his son joseph has been killed by a wild animal and they sell his they the the siblings sell joseph into slavery and then he winds up being ruler over them to make a long story short and then as they see that he is now in this place of authority they are terrified of what kind of vengeance he might take upon them and he says in genesis 50 verse 20 as for you you meant evil against me but god meant it for good and uh obviously we have from that passage a clear indication that god didn't just allow something to happen there he meant it and he meant it for good uh this was something that he decreed it was something that he planned if you could uh comment on this yeah absolutely i mean genesis 50 20 has been often referred to as the romans 8 28 of the old testament um and in that story we god in his pleasure it gives us the whole story he tells us from beginning to end the circumstances and we see throughout this atrocity of these wicked brothers and their behavior towards joseph and certainly was evil it was evil intent it was evil act and it certainly wasn't pleasant for joseph he sat in prison for two years he was he was forgotten um and but yet god exalted him as a type of christ really joseph is exactly that a type of christ who ends up being the sole reason uh humanly speaking at least the sole reason why god preserved the people during a very very severe drought and so we have the whole story painted for us across genesis 38 to the end of genesis and and there we can see from beginning to end god unfolding his providence to save and preserve a people um and so we can answer that uh god did mean it for good though he used the wicked intentions of man to accomplish of that good and of course in that story we see what we ought to see is we ought to see the main player in the story it's not joseph it's god amen he's the main player in the story and at the end of that joseph in that doxological frame in a sense he is praising god for his goodness even in this evil circumstance of which he endured very difficult things and so we have that answer and i think if we if we try to take that story and lay it over as a template uh we're probably going to be frustrated because we don't know we don't know the end of it it took many many many years to unfold joseph's circumstance and so we don't know what god is doing other than what he's always doing which is crying out to his creatures for repentance um we don't know how it's all going to unfold and what circumstances what lives change and how they'll be changed in the direction that they would not have been changed otherwise and um it's a great story it gives us the end in the beginning and we we see it and we praise god because he's the main player but um but here in this in these the vegas issue let's just use that and and other circumstances that people endure we don't have the end of the story uh and we may not ever have the end of the story um but we have to keep running back to the reality that god does do what god does do and he's working for the good of his people now now and that's clear from the joseph account of course that he was preserving a nation for himself and um and so only christians and i say this with all the compassion in my heart only christians can look in the face of evil look in the face of atrocity and then cry out to a god who is for them the unregenerate those who do not know jesus christ they should fear the judgment of god every man deserves it um every man deserves his wrath and and so that's the dichotomy in the world the christian can look at evil and difficulty and say i'm going to trust and lean on my god that's what joseph did we don't know if he did wavered or not we don't he was a man he sinned he struggled but but he leaned on his god the entire time that was his only hope christians have that that absolute confidence that god is for them as i tell my congregation you know uh for the christian death isn't the worst thing no paul says that right for me to live is christ to die it's game and so even in that worst sort of scenario of death because we're all going to face it for the christian it's a it's wonderful precious in the sight of the lord the death of his saints and and so joseph could lean on his god because he knew his god and but people that experience tragedy and difficulties such as vegas who don't know the god of the bible and do not know his son all they have to lean on is the grief which has no answers uh only the christian can can though they don't know the end in the beginning they don't know all the circumstances and what god is doing they can trust that god is good and he's sovereign he loves his people and he's always worked his providence is always working for the good of his church the good of his church and the good of his people and so how this will work for the good of the church in las vegas your guess i don't know but i know it will i know it will amen you know what i find odd is that there are many people who instead of finding comfort like i personally have now i don't want to compare the tragedies that i've experienced in my life with uh those in other circumstances that whose whose tragedies and trials may have been and may still be far more horrific and arduous and nightmarish than mine but at the same time i know that i have found great peace comfort and solace in knowing that there is a purpose that god had behind anything that i have gone through or will go through even if i don't know it on on this earth even if i don't specifically the details of that purpose there are people that there are people that seek to find comfort in purposelessness they seem to find try i should say they try to find comfort in haphazardness and happenstance and it didn't really have any meaning at all like for instance someone perhaps whose loved one died in this tragedy in las vegas there is no known motive yet that i know of that this sick or twisted or evil person had or all three of those things um we don't know what what plan he had and there are people who are going to be trying to find solace and there being no purpose at all anywhere and to me that that would be even more nightmarish you know you make it you make a great point the difficulty of course is that the unregenerate mind uh doesn't contemplate that they don't have the basis by which they can compare the glories of regeneration and the glories of being in christ as opposed to where they currently stand that's all they know and they operate within and ensure it's uh you know and i know as i look at that situation as i talk to people about it i i know that their only hope is to is to recognize that in christ there's purpose and where you currently sit you live in a happy in your view at least you live in a happenstance reality it's not but you can't know the reality of being in christ until you are your eyes are open your heart is open and you see the glories and the truths and then you can say you know there's purpose in my life christ gave it to me i'm here i'm doing what i'm doing as now as a christian i'm doing exactly what i was made to do and that is to worship and love my creator and so yeah you're absolutely right i mean it's it's it's a conundrum right that the unregenerate just will not recognize they're going to keep suppressing the truth and unrighteousness they're going to keep pushing it away and unless god opens her heart unless god opens her eyes they're going to keep pushing it away and they're culpable and they're responsible in that act and uh so it's it's a to me the tragedy is greater than just the incident the tragedy is that those people that were affected by the events don't don't recognize that they have been given one more day to bow the knee before king jesus and it's that's the tragedy to me i'm yes not to downplay the hurt and pain that's there but we have to see the end of it and the god is calling people to repent and um i i just wonder are we listening are we listening so um but you're absolutely right you have purpose in this life because you're a christian you love the lord jesus christ and you know he's giving you direction in life and you're doing what you um and that's glory in him um the unregenerate does i don't even think it goes through their head other than the fact that they just deny the reality that god exists and don't want to accept that reality and so this will give ammunition these events give ammunition to the god hating of the world and who refuse to acknowledge his existence and they'll say well see that just proves god doesn't exist that just proves that he's not good uh the christian can look at that circumstance say he is good because you're still here and you can repent you have time life's short it's all too short amen and the odd thing about those christians those professing christians who would say that there are no specific purposes in many of these events uh there are no there are no purposes in the plan of god or no plan of god at all involved in these things can you imagine uh being face to face with god uh that day that we are entering into eternity and if we were to ask him about a certain circumstance that may have occurred in our own lives or somebody else's lives that was very horrific or such a trial and you were to ask god what was the reason for this to occur and having god himself shrug his shoulders and say well there really wasn't it wasn't any purpose you know that that to me is the ultimate in horrific yeah awful uh i i can't contemplate that i it's too scary to contemplate and yeah no you're right um god is accomplishing his purpose uh and and and i think we have to remember at any issue whether it's a personal tragedy at home and nobody else knows about it but you or it's a national tragedy or disasters of hurricane epic proportion whatever we have to remember that god is accomplishing the purpose that he has set forth in eternity past when he decreed to do what he is going to do and he will accomplish his purposes and um for the christian we can say amen to that and we can trust and relax and rest in that reality it ought to shake the unregenerate it ought to shake them to the point where they recognize their mortality that they will die that they will face in christless eternity that there is judgment awaiting them it's now it's the time i don't keep saying that but i don't know where your listeners are across the world i don't know if they know christ or not and any opportunity to share the gospel is well that's what i do for a living but i don't do it just because it's a living um it is everything in this world everything that's screaming call it's calling for all men to repent and this event or any event it's the same message are we listening and i just don't know and we have we have a listener uh bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who says i don't know if you had read what john piper had to say years ago but he actually said that he would do nothing to physically stop those who might be raping and murdering his family because if he were to kill them they would be certainly in hell uh how how do you respond to such a statement by a man who is so faithful biblically in so many ways yeah i read the article um and you're right he is a faithful minister and i don't want my answer to be construed as um anything other than disagreement and that's it i do disagree um i think we have responsibility i think the sixth commandment requires the preserving of life and whatever means necessary if it's within my purview to do so uh so if i'm walking down the street and some man's beating a woman over the head with a club if i don't intervene in some way whether it's physical intervention or i don't i call 9 -1 -1 and then i run over there and whatever whatever it may be i know we can parse these things to death and miss the point but if i don't intervene then i am guilty of breaking the sixth commandment i did not do all i could to preserve the life of of my neighbor uh how much more than if a man breaks into my home and and it seeks to attack my wife who i have been ordered by christ to give my life for if necessary um absolutely i disagree with him completely on that i love the man he's had great influence on the church and i know many people respect him highly i you know but he is a man he has great feet and on this point i think he missed it in fact he wasn't even being consistent with his reformed convictions because that is a very arminian way of thinking um yeah you know i know he's not bound by the westminster standards i am and and i love the confession of faith and i love the larger catechism's explanation on the commandments and i think there's the answer that we need to recognize that we if it's in my power i need to get involved uh let's take the vegas issue just for a second that if someone was able to break into that hotel room where that man was shooting they heard the gunfire and they walked by that door and did nothing and they knew then to me they're just they're as guilty as they're guilty right but it's done something uh and so what we are compelled by the sixth commandment to preserve the life of others and so i think we do we need to do that now we have to be we have to be biblical and smart we don't go blowing up abortion clinics that's not the right way to do it but we can stand outside those in lawful ways and plead with people not to execute the unborn that's consistent with what god would have us do um but we don't act violently in those circumstances i know what's happened and under the name of god that's not done in the name of god and um but no i disagree with piper on that pretty emphatically yeah so do i and we are out of time actually right now and i want to make sure that our listeners have all of the necessary uh contact information they will need to get in touch with you first of all the fellowship presbyterian church where our guest pastors in newport tennessee uh their website is fellowship -pca .org