National Identity

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to another edition of the conversations that matter podcast I am pleased today to have some guests with me some very special guests from the ours politica

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Podcast which is a pretty new podcast. I would encourage you to subscribe to it And the two co -hosts of that are

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Thomas Accord who is the headmaster of a classical school and Stephen Wolfe who's done some writing for sovereign nations many of you are probably familiar with sovereign nations and Guys, I'd just like to thank you so much for being on and being willing to talk about a subject that many

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Christians are having a hard time navigating Pleasure yeah, so I want to I want to start out with something that I heard from you on I think it was your last podcast or perhaps the podcast before I'm not sure if you've released one since then but it was on a theology or I should say a philosophy of place and You articulated some things in that podcast

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It was about an hour that I thought were just very well stated. There are things that I I believed that I Have I think articulated in different ways, but not quite as clearly as you guys didn't you work through it?

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Sequentially, well just just orderly and I really appreciate that that helps people and Right after that we have this big blow up about nationalism and I see these things are so related

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And so I want to help this is a goal just for everyone listening I want to help people who are

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Christians, especially to navigate The all the all the bad things they're hearing about nationalism

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It some some are feeling like they're being attacked because they love this country They're confused by it.

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What does the Bible say about that? Why are Christian leaders condemning this? And so I want to come up with some clear ideas from Scripture and then and and just also

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I mean with the classical school background just The traditions that have been passed down to us. I want to understand kind of where we sit in Western civilization and and so The first question and I'll pose this to you

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Steven if you don't mind. What is nationalism? What's all the the crazy hoopla about this word that's so condemned

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What is nationalism? Well, that's a it's a challenging thing to answer your first.

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I think your first instinct is to kind of Disavow or to say well, it's not this it's not that And and that's probably natural and kind of a post -world war two

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Era, but I think that if you want to just I think for a positive

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Take on this. I think you should just first recognize that that human beings tend to organize within These people groups these nations and this is recognized.

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I mean not only classically, but also in Christian tradition as being these this the way that that humans can

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Share with one another you have a what what some people have called a sort of symbiosis this this life together

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And it's it's formed with these certain bonds that you develop over time and these are often called

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Nations and their nations because they have these cultural distinctives Now not nationalism.

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I guess you could say that's a sort of ideology maybe but it's it really depends on how you define a nationalism could simply be that a people as a as a people group as a nation arrange themselves in civil government or through social institutions

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Through culture and and and through these things they kind of secure their themselves as a people

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Because there's threats from the outside. There's threats from the inside so you could think of I think nationalism in a positive way as really just kind of the sort of The arrangements that that a people set up To kind of protect themselves as a people.

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So this is an organic kind of thing. This isn't a top -down Organized from from some group of elites in a back room

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This is something that just happens over time and as an extension of family. Am I correct in that? Yeah, I think it can happen on a number of ways.

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I mean can happen happen from elites oftentimes I guess in the best situation you have elites who love their country see themselves as having a duty not only to themselves

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Or to some kind of globalists or to other aristocrats in other countries, but also to themselves as a people seeing themselves as The people like the the group with an obligation to protect to serve

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The entire nation itself So, I mean you can you can this arrangement can happen a number of ways come from the bottom up kind of come from the top but still the idea behind it that you can say the the best version of the ism of nationalism is

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Simply the people kind of arranging themselves so that they can secure their way of life the the good of this

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Collective the sense of we this idea that we are a people we have distinctives we want to protect them

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It's good for our children And for this reason we're going to protect it and secure it

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You know I was talking to someone the other day about this whole issue because it's so controversial right now for some odd reason and And this person

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I was talking to you brought up the fact that Poland and there's many countries like this For many years did not have a political representation

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But they retained their identity as a people and you you see artificial kind of borders being made

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I think perhaps a place like Afghanistan is a good example where or maybe

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I'm thinking of Iraq where you have, you know, the Kurdish region and you have the Sunnis and the

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Shiites and it doesn't really work and It seems like people do sort of separate into groups based on Based on certain factors and you know

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Thomas I know that you've traveled extensively in Europe and you were talking about that in your last podcast

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What kinds of things do you think if you if you had ingredients and you say these are the things that make up a nation?

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What would you put in that or used to describe that? Sort of things that I think

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Stephen are already mentioned that things that are natural among people Sort of like the love of place myths

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Memories myths are big stories. I think there's a quote from Chesterton I saw the other day that said but without stories there there there are no people without fairy tales or something symbols traditions

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Customs Festivities, this is one thing I saw when I was living in Italy that I mentioned the other day They had it was like every other week

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They had a holiday that was a day off and I didn't know about it But they all knew and it but it it was a way that they told time together calendar

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So these are these are sorts of things that take time to develop they develop organically And that that's just some of the ingredients so in Genesis 10

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Verse 5 it says the nations were separated into their lands. So there's place everyone according to his language according to their families into their nations

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And I was reading that this morning and I thought you know that that seems Like the basic elements and and from that we have you know

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That what you were just talking about Thomas the traditions and all these kinds of things celebrations we have what a people is and You know, that's something that seems to be worth defending

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I think that's an obvious thing to most people who have grown up in this country at least up until very recently and so the thing

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I'm curious about is why that is being so maligned the idea of standing up for your country and your people you know the

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America first or make America great again these these kind of Taglines have been very vilified as something that's that aren't

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Christian this to either one of you. What is that all about? What do you think is motivating that vilification of someone wanting to?

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Defend and promote their people in the best interest of their people. Well, I mean,

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I'll I'll say I'll say first that I think one motivation for you know, preserving and and having this sort of national identity

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Is is the connection? That that Burke recognized Edmund Burke recognizes as the eternal society

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Which is a connection between the dead the living and the unborn and that's not just That the concept people throw out that oh the dead get a vote and we need to think a lot about the future it's more that that the

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Place that you live the place that you had that you work the place that you That you love

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This this is the place that where the imprint of your ancestors the people who went before you have left behind I mean really when you walk around and you can get you can get by and you can see the buildings and The streets and the people their customs with all those things are products of the past That have been remained permanent in the in the present

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Okay, so you can think in some sense the the world that you inhabit is a is this life world?

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It's a it's a it shows forth the life activity if you want to put that way of the past and and In that sense living in the present should be a form of gratitude for the past because we can we can actually be free we can

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Make our own choices have our own ends in life because people in the past have created these things for us and with that it

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You should then seek to conserve that for the future if you love Your children want the best for them

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And your grandchildren you're great You're going to want to then conserve what you've been given as an act of in some sense act of piety to the past but also in service to the future and So something's and I say that because I think something's gone wrong

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Terribly wrong if we're just very flippant about yeah, it's just gonna burn up I mean, there's one preacher that said

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I preached that America is gonna You know come to an end and and it's future demise and be replaced

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Well, I mean we know in the eschaton that eschatologically all these things are going to be replaced in a sense

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But the same time the way we just kind of flippantly say yeah, it's all gonna burn up and go away

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Who really cares or they have kind of a half -hearted concern in some sense? I mean really that it's it's an odd expression of of a

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Lack of gratitude for the past and also just this Carelessness for for the future and there's something deeply can

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I think pathological about that? That that we all in the

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West in particular. I think this is not common. There's something weird about the

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West that we would we would be in this state where we don't we actually want to hate the past critique and despise the past and then at the same time

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Have this, you know care carefree attitude about the future Yeah, that's interesting it seems so you mentioned a virtue their gratitude and you know, oftentimes

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I'll see I Think maybe the Colin Kaepernick when he started kneeling during the the national anthem is a good example of this

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You know, some people were offended because they thought well, hey, well, you know My grandfather my grandfather fought under that flag or you know, this represents

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Sacrifices that has been made that I want to steward. Well, and And of course the other side was trying to make the case.

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Well, that's that is not at all You know what this protest is about this process is about present, you know systemic oppression racism, etc, and And there was such a divide

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And it's still there It's worse now probably than it was then but a lot of these big evangelical elites took the side of Kaepernick in that whole

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Dust up and I think it left a lot of working -class people who probably voted for Trump who are you know?

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Christians who just go to church live their lives want to be left alone and continue their life as it is confused and you know part of part of Part of what

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I want to do is try to identify that so I think you know, Steven, you know a great job I really appreciate that's a great explanation for I think why we value the past why we we have the identity we do

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Why do you think that is hated though so much? By the other side the symbols of the past The that that draw that bind us to past generations

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You know those kinds of things. What do you think? I don't know Thomas. Maybe you have a thought on this

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Well, I know it's been around for a while if you go back and read people in the early 1900s. They're talking about this this

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This Sentiment that despises place Particularity and that favors universal.

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They called they called it cosmopolitanism in the early 1900s That's what that was the word we use globalism today but and even the fact that Burke Edmund Burke in the 1700s is talking late 1700s is talking about this eternal society and We live the past and in light of the in light of the past in the future

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In the fact that he was even talking about that meant that these things were being challenged back then so I think many people who when they try to isolate the what what is causing this sort of Oikophilia phobia and Xenophilia as they call it what's causing it.

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There are many probably many causes It's hard to pin down one because it's been going on for so long

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But I think any explanation that we come up with has to account for the fact that fact that it's been going on for a while,

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I think a lot of Criticisms for instance of nationalism or or any of these issues that we're talking about are often very provincial in chronologically geographically culturally and so it's it's not something particular to America or It's happening in evangelical in the evangelical world.

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It's also happening in France It's happening in different places and some of these Eastern European countries are coming out of it right now

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From having having coming out of communism a few decades ago. So it's it's a broad movement It's kind of everywhere and I think the don't want to get ahead of ourselves here

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But I think so this nationalism that's going on going around is sort of a reaction to it and that's happening everywhere also

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When when someone on the evangelical left says nationalism what I hear is that you know, I think is patriotism

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I I sense. Okay, you just you don't love our country, right? And I think it's what a lot of working -class Christians That's what they're hearing.

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Like what you don't like being here. Why don't you leave? Why don't you go somewhere else, right? He has the logic goes and in their minds though.

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They're thinking that they're taking a stand against Neo -nazis, I mean that's what they think it seems like at least right and and so, you know they're on some kind of a moral crusade to rid themselves which rid their country of these these horrible people which in itself seems almost like a nationalist or a

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Great concern for the country right there. They're still viewing themselves as being plagued by some kind of outside force or or internal force,

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I guess that is encouraged by an outside force to Revolt against the standard norms that they believe and that's how they view it at least in my thinking and and so You know, it seems to me like that that's the the big divide and and I wonder whether or not we're using two different When we talk about nationalism

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You know, why is it that one side sees patriotism and one side sees?

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Neo -nazi, you know told extremists of some kind Well, I think go ahead

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Steven, oh, well, I I think I think the issue is That What would what divides

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I think between you could say evangelical left and the right or just the left and right probably generally excluding the center, right?

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It probably agreed to more of the left and the right on this but the the idea that that nationhood requires an active

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Preservation which must follow from a principle of exclusion so if you have a a certain group that has certain unique particular characteristics that are more than just kind of common humanity and You want to preserve that distinct kind of particular group of people?

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So in cultural practices that sort of thing then you have to yeah, you have to exclude

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People from that group and this happens, of course in churches churches do this you know conservative churches do actually all churches do this in one form of another and That's because there's there's a certain standard that you you want to set now, of course you could

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Usually the principle of exclusion is going to be kind of exclusion from kind of mass chain like mass movements of mass immigration that kind of thing

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But I think the evangelical left thinks that the that somehow the theology and the gospel introduced this new inclusive principle and so when they hear nationalism they hear

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They hear something that violates that you know command to be

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Inclusive and And the yeah, and so I think just evangelical like the evangelical eat broadly

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Because because they tend to have this weird this kind of like quasi separatism, you know it's like we want to love the city but not be of it or or there or we want to like this kind of This sense in which we are to you know

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Like enter and do good and then retreat back down the walls of church that kind of thing That that leads them to to adopt have a more inclusivist kind of posture towards their their coordination

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Because they're they don't see themselves as really fundamentally part of that nation They seem themselves kind of a separate as kind of like just in you know, like I said entering doing good company then leaving

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Whereas I think someone like, you know, Tom Thomas and I and the more people who'd be I guess right wing we'd see that the that that we are part of this nation the

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American nation or Part of this, you know a distinct culture distinct people group And so we have to then implement of in order to preserve that good we'd have to exclude so I think that's one reason why they don't that they they don't like that I mean,

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I think that they would I Think that they would agree with that characterization. I Think I think that's that's the divide.

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I also think to go negative and to where they probably won't like it I think that that that this stuff is

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The the left is is useful for progressive causes that is why the evangelical left doesn't like The idea of nationalism.

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Well, if you destroy the past and the past has an imprint on the present Then the presence tainted the present is in need of reform.

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The present is something you need to now through social action and political action change

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And so that's why that's why they they despise the past because then it frees you know people who are connected to place and people now have a negative relation to What what once gave them like animated them and love their place and now it's wait now

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It's a call to action to change for the future. And so it's a means of bringing you into a progressive

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Kind of spirit to destroy the past. Why would you conserve a bunch of products of racists?

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So that's one thing. I That's what I think. That's I mean, I my guess that's probably more the motivation than than the inclusivist part, but so yeah, it's it's this idea that that You know

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If you don't have any connection in the past And or you if you despise the past you can despise the present which forces you to action for the future

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That's good. That's really good. And those two reasons well stated they

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It's a progressive tool, but it's also because of the way they view themselves and this is where we get into identity a bit one of the things

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I've noticed in studying the progressive evangelical left is they tend to Look at culture as kind of like this

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This this thing like this like there's they don't like borders in the real world but they have like in their minds a conception of America or you know pick any country

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And and they are outside of that looking in they're not part of it the church is not part of it that's the vantage point that they seem to be

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Viewing it from and it's the mission. It seems like of the church to then go and change this So it's gonna sort of like infuse penetrate that bubble what if America and it's gonna change it and correct all the wrongs and And and that's their mission or part of their mission part of the gospel

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And I think for for us, I Know speaking for myself at least

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I I never really viewed it that way. I thought of myself as living in a culture living in a place that had certain habits and traditions and associations you know ties that bound me to it responsibilities that I had to it and The the church that I went to also inhabited that same place and That seems to be a fundamental difference between the two views here

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You know, you guys had talked about Philosophy of place and I wonder Thomas maybe if you could talk a little more about that because you did such a good job

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What? What is it that naturally binds someone to a place and then what is it that would cause someone to if you have an idea on this maybe separate themselves and then try to be kind of a reformer of that or an

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Outside force that's gonna come in Well what causes us to to love a certain place?

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I Think one as you ask that question one person that comes to my mind is a guy named

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Gouverneur Morris and Gouverneur was his first name Morris. He was sort of like the grandfather of the founding fathers and He wrote a letter to Alexander Hamilton sort of exhorting him to be a patriot a good patriot and one of the things he says is that If we examine the the climate and the countries of the earth we see that the

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Patriot passion is everywhere People feel it for the for the burning sands of Libya He says like out there in this land.

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He says on the frozen shores of you know, whatever other country people love their frozen shores

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They wherever they're from and this is sort of it's something that almost is formed in you when you're born

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From the from the soil and the food that you're you're you're weaned upon it before you even know it

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He and he kind of starts to wax eloquent and poetic but he says but before we're able to think the

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Simplicity the atmosphere the culture of the climate The habits of life that animate the people they imprint themselves upon us and it's almost like He doesn't use this phrase, but it's almost like it's this invisible hand that's working upon us to bind us and With the tenderness of our of our of our youth and the filial affection of our parents and I think

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We quoted Cicero about seeing him. He sees his old house and all these these memories flood back over him

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The companions that you had, you know this tree that you used to climb with your friends You see that tree or if the tree falls down, you know, it's like this.

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Oh no moment Even though you don't even it's just a tree, right? But it's it's all these things that are forming upon you without you even being aware of it and so what could you call this time in place and all of the what

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Gouverneur Morris calls the mysteries of Of age and so those are some of the elements and I think you see this here

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This is this goes back thousands of years is I always have this being a classical guy

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I guess I always have this broad view of things You go back thousands of years you can see this with the story of Odysseus and Odysseus he leaves the

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Trojan War He's trying to find back get back home and he's a terrible sailor. Apparently he can't find he can't get back home and he he goes to this island and there's this beautiful goddess who wants to stay him to stay with her and forever and and He says no,

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I gotta go and there's another goddess that happens again And he says no, I can't I have to get back to my home and he says there's nothing dearer to a man

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Than his own country and his own parents, however splendid a home. He may have in a foreign country if It be far from his father and mother.

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He does not care about it So the whole story of this ancient tale one of the most famous tales ever 800

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BC 850 BC is about a man wanting to go back home at all costs and that says something that's why it's called a classic it says something to this, um, this perennial passion in man

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That's good that and that seems to be a natural thing a providential thing that God isn't used in the reality and The question is then why if that is so natural for someone and it is don't you know?

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Father's Day, you know you give your dad a card world's best dad. Did you really run the numbers on that? Right, right No, it's your dad.

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You know, I mean, this is a natural thing. Why? Why is it something that?

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Progressives seem to rebel against Do you have an idea on that?

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Well, I think that I mean There's you can you can make a case that it's been around for a while.

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But but also Stephen mentioned post -world war, too it's it's kind of exacerbated and heightened and our our

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Reno has a has a book on this called return of the strong gods and I think that's a pretty good book to a pretty good explanation in his book of why it's it's this sentiment is really strong today

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World War two the interpretation post -world war two is that whatever was happening with Hitler and the

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Germans That's that it wasn't this anomaly This is the interpretation.

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Okay, this is like the interpretation of Postmodernists and different different groups It wasn't an anomaly we think we look back at that and think oh man, that was crazy

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I came out of nowhere didn't it? Well, no, it didn't according to this interpretation. It didn't come out of nowhere it it was embedded in the spirit of Western man and Western civilization and you can you can go deeper than this

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It was it was embedded in males or Christian or whatever you want to call it but it's there and it's there in this instance, you know incipient form and The whole project of post -world war to philosophy and history and art whatever is to Root that out to find it if the question is not is it there?

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But where is it? here in this thing and again, Reno does a really great job of exposing that and other people have

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Explained it as well. You you can find this Most prominent see usually people trace this to like the

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Frankfurt School Yeah, and I say or a door knows f -scale. That's what that sounds like, right?

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Right the authoritarian personality What is that book about it's about the if that authoritarian character?

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You can there's a bunch of like transmutations that we call it different words today like toxic masculinity or just being domineering chauvinist patriarchal misogynist

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Reigning yeah mansplaining man spreading Whatever it is it all of these ideas are things that need to be suppressed, so How do you counter them?

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Well? This this idea is of a closed society. So we need an open society.

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It's a big it's a bigoted society so we need a tolerant society and Everything that came out of the

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Western world monogamy the nuclear family Sort of this up Puritan work ethic.

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I suppose like all of these things need to be uprooted and deconstructed and subverted and so you have these

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Many projects people embark upon today and so anytime you have any kind of sentiment

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I think that goes in this in this direction people smell it They sense it and they they wave a flag and people come running

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So, yeah, do you think it is come so when we look at like the Enlightenment I mean some interpretations say this is a reaction against the wars of Europe fought for religion

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So we need secularism of some kind and now do you think there's a post -world war to a reaction against nations themselves that actually it's not

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Religion that causes people to fight its national pride. It's loving your home too much And so we need to get rid of that and only then

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Can we have you know imagined by John Lennon that world Steven do you think that that's

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I mean, we're we're sort of in the tube kind of trying to examine it. So it's hard we don't have

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We're not far ahead looking back. But but do you think that's a fair analysis? Yeah, I think that there is this

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You say World War two and and Nazism I don't want to say spook does that's could give him too much credit, but they were like Thomas said the that they they wanted to Defeat and destroy and never let come back the idea of the strong gods, which would be a connection to place this this idea that that this assertiveness where you kind of stand at the border and Assert yourself that this is mine or ours

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That that sense of strength of a preservation conservation and you know, we've been talking about this whole time.

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So yeah That was all that was all kind of rejected. So that this is why it's always kind of fascinating that that Everything anything that we think things that we don't like is, you know, quote literally

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Hitler And of course Hitler did a lot of evil things, but so did the communists. I mean you can

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You know communism killed 120 whatever it was a tremendous amount of people But but somehow everything bad is actually this right -wing this nationalism

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Whereas the left kind of gets a pass you can have people. Yeah, I'm a Marxist in in in universities

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I mean imagine having a fascist in a university, right? Of course, they'd be kicked out and that's and there's so Everything is framed post

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World War two as We have to avoid Nazism Nazism bad

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But then somehow the communists and or the Marxists and the leftists are these people that that we think are kind of goofy

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But you know what academic freedom? what's interesting though in that is that they don't attribute the technology, you know advances of the

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Nazis or the Socialist ideas of the Nazis to be the real problems they view the

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Nationalism, that's that's the problem and everything kind of nationalism has to bear the weight of all of it

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Yeah, people don't realize that like Mussolini. He was a he was an international socialist prior to Forming the fascist party in Italy and he just became a national socialist

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Which is you know, it is significantly different That's why obviously why communists did hate the fascist or you know did hate the fascist nevertheless it was this nationalistic form of socialism and and and that's what

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Hitler later and the Nazi Party later adopted was national socialism and so,

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I mean in some ways I think We could we could say that that that the only like you said, they only critique the nationalism part of it

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And not so much the actual Socialism aspect of it, but you know,

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I I think that that the problem is that obviously that form of Militaristic nationalism was was a problem.

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So I mean we're all gonna all gonna say yeah, we don't want a Nazism to arise where he goes and tries to take over Europe or whatever if you think that's kind of unless you think that he just wanted to take over a little bit a little

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Europe, but um but but what ends up happening is that that is that they throw out all sense of Nationality all sense of the idea of nation and so they condemn places like Hungary for saying we don't want to take in Tens of tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of migrants.

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They condemn that as racist or they condemn that as bigoted Because it doesn't conform to this liberal this liberal project

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They've thrown out all of the sense of sense of nation And I mean and by the way,

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I mean we don't have to get into this but it just it supports international This it supports globalism it supports

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In the end it supports this globalist elite that makes a tremendous amount of money While at the same time diluting destroying and disrupting

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Nations, I mean, it's really it's war. It's they're fighting against for their own gain. They fight against nature, which is people's sense of the

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You know a sense of place Well, you mentioned globalism and I want to ask either one of you.

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Do you think that? Progressives and this would include evangelical progressives are unwittingly

35:00

Slipping into the same kind of error that the erectors of the Tower of Babel were slipping into and I just read from Genesis 10 and it it seems like there is a coming together of Taking down all the kinds of barriers that would exist between peoples

35:18

And then of course putting them under some kind of totalitarian regime that's going to monitor them according to Social credit or however, they're gonna do it and this will you not this seems to comport perhaps with this.

35:32

I don't know a Kind of a an idea of utopia that we're gonna you know, if it's not perfect It's closed the closest thing we can get to it on earth if we just get rid of these things

35:43

That's what I sent do you see that as Because that's a serious charge if that's true, you know, if evangelical progressives are trying to re -erect the

35:51

Tower of Babel Do you see parallels there? Well, yeah. Yeah, certainly because I think that that that evangelicals

36:00

I'm particularly the the elite ones they've adopted the The the post world what's called, you know,

36:06

I got our Reno as Thomas mentioned the post -world war to consensus Which is not Nazi bad and it's always just about to arise

36:14

It's always just it's just around the corner and we just got to fight it back that urge to be all become Nazis And that's

36:21

I mean, that's a little bit of exaggeration, but that's still kind of the the basic theme behind post -world war two and Evangelicals have just entirely adopted it and I partly because they have this this thing where they want to be kind of moderate and to be moderate is to Adopt the same it's adopted to be to be radical would be to say no,

36:42

I would you know nations are good And so yeah, I do think they've adopted that but that in the theologies conformed to it the the theology of the evangelical elite is

36:54

Basically that you that yeah, I think John you've said things like, you know, love the city hate the nation or something like that yeah,

37:02

I mean that's a little bit exaggeration probably they wouldn't like that but There there but once you kind of deconstruct the nation and You become kind of globalist here well the church is global and the church is spread across all across the world and and so we should be globally minded and not

37:19

Care about our particular national in group and and so yeah, that's going to what it's going to support the the free flow of labor across borders without restrictions it's going to support all sorts of Internationalism and globalism that's going to undermine national sovereignty.

37:37

It's gonna undermine people's ability to Secure and protect their their nation and way of life.

37:44

It's gonna cause massive disruptions Which are good for you because it's going to you know, maximize your consumption of goods and services,

37:51

I suppose But you know, yes I do think that that that that they've they've adopted the post world war two consensus and they're just a part of their part of it

38:00

Yeah, you know it's interesting I was remembering back when you were talking to sitting in seminary and Realizing in one of my courses that the kinds of pastors that seem to be trained we were going for a pastor that would be kind of like have an international appeal and and very much for city urban kinds of ministries, but It didn't work when

38:27

I remember sitting class. I'm over hearing this one guy Who's you know, he's gonna graduate. He's probably pastoring somewhere now, but complaining about the folks back home you know in Alabama or wherever he was gonna go and he'd have to go back and they're all boycotting the

38:40

NFL because they don't Want to watch people disrespect our flag and he thinks that's just stupid and he's saying this in class

38:46

And I'm just sitting there like yeah, like you're gonna have to minister to these people This is where you grew up. I just couldn't believe what

38:51

I was hearing But you know, that's the mentality that was it was not corrected by the professor I mean that was the professor instead was trying to teach him kind of like well

38:59

How do you shepherd people into the right view and it's just like what? And so they're they're training people though very much for this sort of to be international leaders

39:12

That don't have a place that are kind of like they can just move around. I guess wherever and be successful not tailored to you know, the kinds of people that they're gonna actually have to minister to in the real world and And I know that churches because it before I left

39:29

I had heard They had to implement all these new kind of Christian discipline courses because their graduates were not doing well

39:36

They were having a lot of problems with churches splitting and I'm sure that problem has been exacerbated now and and so anyway,

39:44

I you know thinking through that it seems like that's the neo -evangelical kind of model is to train for International kind of leadership without these two national distinctions

39:57

Which I don't know just it was a side thought I had that was just kind of interesting to me That was it sparked when you were talking there

40:03

Well, I also add if I can that please they not only not only are they trained to be kind of these kind of global or international leaders but they also have the mentality that will then kind of form

40:19

People in their congregation to be basically global citizens, you know, so because if the nation itself if the the nation as a people is the the way that you resist kind of this outside encroachment this globalism if the nation is that that thing that and You know is what resist is what the thing that can resist globalism and if you undermine the some national loyalty or the sense of place and You become more and more in sentiment this kind of sort of global internationally minded

40:51

Christian you're being kind of Socialized and formed into the globalist system.

40:59

Basically, you're you're you're being You know You're being you're being socialized into the very thing that the globalists want you to become and so I think that in the large part

41:10

I mean evangelical professor will professors but also Pastors are just shaping you to be like that That's interesting.

41:21

There was an essay I read Years ago by Richard Weaver. I don't know if you've read it called two types of American individualism and I want to get into this idea of identity because what what it argues essentially is that there's sort of an individualism that comes from the north and an

41:39

Individualism more in the south and in the south. There's more of a sense of what you were talking about Steven with Attachments that you grew up with obligations, but you know ties that bind you to people and institutions, etc

41:53

Very organic, but in the north it was kind of this Walden Pond kind of I'm an island, you know to myself

42:00

And and I think we see this kind of more in kind of libertarian ish ideas today or Circles today where people

42:10

When they talk about individualism often they don't want any kinds of bonds, you know social bonds

42:17

But of course, you know, there's there's another kind of individualism that doesn't really that wants those social bonds

42:22

But it doesn't want socialism. And so I was hoping that you could sort of help us navigate towards Because I think there's an identity crisis.

42:31

How do we? help people Whether it's shepherding, I know Thomas, you know, you have a school

42:37

So I'm sure you have people coming from broken homes who have moved everywhere who you know What kind of sense of place do they have?

42:42

You know, what? What true what what makes them who they are? How do you help people cultivate an? identity that is not an island and not socialism, but actually

42:55

I think you know, and hopefully we can bring some biblical principles to bear but but you know but is is a person who is

43:05

Acknowledging the sovereignty of God providence of God in in gratitude in you know

43:13

Forming the situation that they were born into and all the things that go along with that So, you know with that Thomas, you know, how do you deal with that with maybe students or people in your life?

43:22

Have you helped people that have had identity issues sort of understand kind of their place and who they are.

43:29

I Think identity, you know, there's many there's many ways of layering it my identity as a man and my identity as as American or as a southerner.

43:41

I'm also in the south Or as a westerner or as a Christian and each of those layers are being attacked so it's not like there's any one

43:50

I think one of the failures of today is to pick one of those identities and sort of Blow it up to the exclusion of so you're in Christ.

43:58

You're just in Christ. That's all right, right? Okay, or or you're um, You know, you're like transgender and you have to go it's like it's like the new

44:05

CrossFit You have to go around and tell everyone everywhere all the time. This is this is your identity Sorry if you do

44:12

CrossFit whatever I don't do CrossFit no, okay Okay but so one thing one thing

44:21

I saw I'm a student of history and What I what I tell people if you want to get into history

44:27

One of the best things to do is read biographies and read stories of people It's it's the memory of these people and you as sort of their

44:39

Posterity their descendant that begins to begins to bind you to something solid in the past I think also

44:47

Edmund Burke. We mentioned him earlier. He said They will not look to the to the to their descendants who do not look to their ancestors and so This idea of having identity for me as an individual

45:00

It really doesn't where if I can give an analogy we have art students and all every student wants to draw or paint something out of the inner awesomeness of their self and We tell them that's not how great art is made

45:17

Great art is always made by you studying some master copying and copying and copying their works and Eventually doing something a little different based upon that So trying to find identity as as an individual.

45:32

I think is um, you're sort of gonna You're short changing yourself. You're cutting yourself off short you need to find these things that are that are beyond you and see yourself in a broader stream of something and That could be

45:47

Your your state history as as a Louisianan. It could be your national history

45:54

It could be your Christian history, and I think all of those are healthy layers your family history so Classically, what do we do as a classical school?

46:04

We don't focus on State at the state level at most we have a national history, but more broadly we teach a

46:11

Western History so I'm one of the things in classical education is we're trying to pass on a culture

46:18

That's part of what education is passing something on What is that culture and the end this cultural identity these loves these?

46:27

affections these tastes and Habits, we're passing on a

46:32

Western and a classical and Christian culture And so there's a very clear set define

46:38

You know agreed upon You know books and ideas it takes a long time you might be thinking okay, so what books to how long is this?

46:47

Yeah, it's it's gonna take about 12 years, right really of you absorbing this material and Doing it while the world is trying to undo it.

46:57

So it has to be this self. It's not something that we can just kind of Passively grow up grow up in today.

47:04

You have to actively turn your mind toward it and Take it on for yourself and we do that at our school through again

47:13

We read we read all the great books. Obviously, we read the history of Science to those like how did that develop?

47:19

So we take everything Every morning we have like this calendrical Prayer that we you know

47:27

What happened this day in church history or or Western history? And so it's sort of this um washing over time and I Ideally, my goal would not be to produce people who are merely

47:43

Westerners. I would rather something more particular But I think it at where we are right now merely recovering a broad

47:51

Western tradition is task enough in itself it's sort of people talk about classical education as We're rebuilding the ruins of this once great

48:02

Cathedral And where are we in that stage I think we're at the stage of trying to fix the foundation

48:09

Later on we can talk about rooms and things and maybe some of the other people that's their area of work but mine is sort of At the bottom right now

48:20

That is excellent and that it sounds kind of like what God instructed the

48:25

Hebrews to do in remembering the crossing of the Jordan by a

48:32

Opportunity to ask what happened there and then it forms an identity within them just like they're peculiar habits that God implemented as well and You know, this is something that it means a lot to me and I you know

48:45

I'm happy to hear you say it's not just Western and I realize you know It's just kind of like we're I feel like we're hanging on we're trying to recover these basic things, but I'm a localist and there's regional things that are so special and You know,

49:00

I'm seeing this even even with progressives and this is one of the things I wanted to ask is it inescapable

49:06

To to have some kind of an identity tied to place even if you hate the nation

49:13

I see progressives. They have these like, you know farm markets and stuff and like one organic vegetable

49:19

You know what? I'm talking about right? You've been there. Yeah Yeah, yeah buying local You know, it's a very big thing in progressive circles, you know, is it inescapable?

49:29

I mean, is this just how God's wired us? We we love place It seems to me like it is and you can't really push that down for Inevitably, like it's it's gonna come out somewhere.

49:40

I don't know Yeah, I think it's I think it's natural If you if you could find people talking about this in all cultures at all times essentially that Every individual is disposed to love those near to them

49:56

In fact, I think it was John C Calhoun who talked about the concurrent majority. Yeah, the whole the whole reason for that was that Politically people are disposed to prefer policies that affect them locally because that's his

50:10

Aristotle talked about that I can go on and on and on but he said friendships extend our cities extend as far as friendships do and so I know you can naturally artificially extend them further, but You know, he's just thinking in an ancient sense

50:25

This is how we we function. It's it's how we think the human mind can't account for all variables

50:32

Past a past a human scale so to speak and that's something in political philosophy

50:37

People don't talk about a lot is what is a what is a human a human scale for for a nation?

50:44

How far can our? Allegiances and our loves and our or can they be extended so far that they're so thin they break

50:53

No, so yeah, that's a really good point because I think the evangelical elites tend to have this idea

51:01

You know loving the whole world and we should all have it should be a love we have for humanity, but they

51:09

It's kind of like I think what you just said about stretching the cords too thin that that's what it feels like You know,

51:16

I can't go to every country. I no matter how much money I have I can't give to every cause

51:22

I can't there's only so many things I can do and in God's Providence. I got to invest that into What he's put in front of me and that seems like the obvious place, you know first to the household of faith

51:32

You know first to your family. Whoever doesn't provide for them is worse than an infidel, right? So we have these things in Scripture How would you?

51:41

And this maybe this is more for Steven. I don't know either one of you but how how would you respond? I know you are responding on Twitter, but give me a

51:48

Help for those who might be in a church where their pastor is saying nationalism is wrong.

51:54

Loving your people is wrong That's racism, etc. I give us some tools for responding to that That that is a that's

52:09

That's tough. I mean, I I can't I can't say that I have any great wisdom on how to How to deal with that that situation in particular in a church

52:19

Kind of nervous to provide I don't want to say leave it really depends on the situation But I think that at least having you let's just say the pastor's ignorant

52:28

This is they heard this in seminary and now they're preaching because they think Unwittingly, well, this is what

52:33

Christianity is because every tribe tongue nation Revelation 7 and now you're there and you're kind of like well

52:39

I don't want to feel guilty because you know, we're not diverse enough or whatever, you know I like our potlucks.

52:46

I like our you know, our songs and that kind of thing. There's nothing wrong with that Well, just just practically if this is something that like that the pastor just goes on on on about I would just you know

52:55

And you have the ability to perhaps go to a different church. Just just go and don't

53:02

You could there's nothing wrong with going to a different church And I I would just recommend that you you kind of announce to the elders your decision

53:10

Maybe even request to leave you to go to a different church I've done that before where I just requested to move to a different actually to a different denomination and they just said yes over another theological issue

53:23

Um, so I mean that's one thing to do but but that might that's the last resort. I think that you should Try to engage them.

53:30

Uh and and the best you can kind of explain the the goods that are uh that are that are uh provided by this sense of nationality

53:40

Uh, and and the and the theology and I mean This is it's challenging because you have to bring a lot of theology to this

53:48

Um, uh, you'd have to make distinctions between nature and grace You'd have to say look we're all naturally human.

53:54

And so we're kind of we tend to or we we need this um this nation or this this sense of place and the sense of we

54:05

Out in into the world not just in the church, but actually out into the world as well um Into kind of civil society and those things are all worth preserving

54:15

And I mean you just have to bring the best arguments you can uh, but otherwise if if the pastor's goes on and on and on about that in sermons

54:24

And denounces the very things that you think preserve that are for your good then you you may know you may want to just um peaceably kind of leave that church, but I'm hesitant to provide that advice, but I think that that might be in the end the the best thing to do

54:40

Can I explain I guess one thing that helps me in this? So one of the things that I don't mean to plug classical education here too much

54:47

All right, but one of the things that drew me drew me into this was the idea of rootedness um traditions are things rooted um in in time and experience and so The modern world is sort of this world that's cut itself off and we're drifting around In our relationships, we don't even we don't know what gender we are and all this crazy stuff today

55:10

Well, how do you how do you know? You align yourself with with the predominant um the the preponderance of humanity

55:21

And in human experience and there's a lot of people in history that have written uh contrary

55:30

On nationalism on natural affection contrary to what you're hearing today um thousands and thousands of people and um

55:40

I don't mean to plug, uh something here, but you're asking I think this would help help people um a colleague and I've been working on um

55:48

Something for a while which is basically like an anthology of natural relations and Now we're trying to get it out and and publish it as soon as we can but it's it's several hundred pages of people

56:04

And it's presbyterians. It's catholics. It's greeks. It's romans. It's jews. It's chinese people It's people in the 3000 bc.

56:12

It's people in the 100 ad all speaking about natural social relations And the things we're talking about here in a way that Demonstrates that I guess

56:25

What we're expressing is natural normal Christians come along and say things like god arranged it this way his his benevolent hand providence, you know yeah, it's and so um,

56:39

I think to me I put this together because it just it helps me when all around me is

56:46

Blowing in different directions I know that this is an anomaly That these views today it's it's an aberration on the historical scene and so um

56:58

I mean, I I don't again. I don't like public promoting myself or whatever But we we are trying to put this together and publish it.

57:05

So it's not done Is there a website though or where people can get an update or? No, uh, I don't it's it's just it's just a file and you'll have to come back on you'll have to send it to me

57:15

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, i've seen versions of it. It's it's pretty pretty impressive Um, i'm looking forward to that.

57:22

Um Another thing I would say is uh is is ecclesiology Uh is is really important.

57:28

Uh, and uh, I mean i'm presbyterian and uh, and So I I this may not be the perfectly baptist take though.

57:36

I think it could be. Um, but that I think that if We tend to and evangelicalism just broadly.

57:44

It's not just the elite but everyone we tend to place too much on the the institutional church

57:49

That the that this association that we have as members of this church Is supposed to satisfy like every every human christian and christian, um

57:59

Need and good that that we that uh that we have Um, and so we we see the church as well.

58:06

No, this is your this is your new, uh, Your new citizenship is heaven and it's located in the church And so you kind of you can renounce your earthly one.

58:14

This is the place where you're you're a holy nation So you don't really need that other nation or it's just kind of secondary um

58:21

This is a place where you learn, uh ethics and everything is in is in the the institutional church, of course the pastor becomes a a ceo and all that but um at times

58:32

Um, just because so much pressure is placed on them to do all this stuff every human needs there and I I think that that is just um a a faulty view of Just a bad ecclesiology

58:45

And I think we should we need to say That they are they're two different institutions. You have civil and you have ecclesiastical each of them

58:53

Has a role in your life and one, uh One does something that the other cannot do or at least cannot do well

59:02

So the obvious one for the civil realm is uh, you know, it can be fire departments But the the church can't have a fire department probably not unless you're really big or police department or um you know all sorts of things so I think

59:16

I think the importance is to Is to see your church as a place that provides spiritual good for eternal life

59:24

Uh for for the for the gospel it also trains you in in moral theology and some of the other things

59:31

But that you have to not see that as well. Ideally the church is as political church is where we go

59:37

No, you have both uh realms Provide the human for the christian with these uh with these needs, um, and so that means that the the nation

59:49

Which is something that doesn't have to be separate from the church doesn't even have to be outside the church nevertheless, it does being

59:57

Non -ecclesiastical and as an institution is this thing that provides you these national good these these goods as a human being you know, so I guess the bottom line is we shouldn't see the institutional church as a replacement for what for like tom was talking about these classical authors talk about the you know, the importance of place and and and um and uh and nation

01:00:23

The gospel did not replace that and then implant it in the church You know as an institution these two different realms if you want to call them ecclesiastical and civil provide the

01:00:35

Each a unique set of goods And we shouldn't make one like the replacement for the other

01:00:42

Well, this is where I my my heresy meter starts to my yellow flags at the very least start going up When and i've seen what you're talking about.

01:00:50

I know exactly what you're talking about um Where we expect the gospel to accomplish things

01:00:57

That the gospel was not intended to accomplish in this realm in this life and uh kind of Almost adding to it really that's that's where my heresy meter starts going off adding to it that this is somehow part of yeah

01:01:10

Yeah, christian identity is and and i've seen this. I don't know if you've seen this where especially men

01:01:16

Women not as much but men, um, and it may be women, but maybe it's just because most of my friends you know,

01:01:22

I hang out with men and I hear more what they're saying, but they it doesn't um It it doesn't always work well with men when they let's say person goes to church they get saved

01:01:33

And now all of a sudden they're kind of being told or at least it's implied that they should be at church for everything and all their needs are here fulfilled here and You know what they ever they used to do whatever hobbies they had and civil, you know activities

01:01:47

They were involved in civic stuff. Uh, they can't you know, that that's not really it's sort of second tier like, you know

01:01:53

You really want to be sitting in every you know, every time the church is open you gotta Come here and sit and listen to lectures, etc.

01:02:00

And men just that's not how we are. It's like We we yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so, um, right, so the the the

01:02:09

We tend to think that that all of life needs to be kind of inside the church, you know, the institutional church

01:02:17

And It and it needs to be a kind of a program it needs to be something that the church officially does

01:02:24

That you participate that you you you know that you participate in bingo There's a difference between you studying, you know manhood

01:02:32

Uh, like like a masculinity with a pastor and a formal bible study at official program

01:02:39

That's one thing and that's that's fine All right, but it's it's it's a it's a different thing as well and it's a good thing for men of the same church

01:02:47

To do to just talk and do things together Outside of the church but not as an official program in some sense.

01:02:55

That's a civil Thing even though you're christians and you're from the church It's an outside.

01:03:01

It's like an extra ecclesial thing. You're doing with christian men. Let's say you're I don't know you're building something or you're

01:03:07

I don't know Whatever you're doing outside I I do a lot of like hiking and outdoors activities and I would just hang out with guys from the church, you know but we weren't didn't think it was a worship service, but A lot of social formation happens in those

01:03:20

Sometimes more formation happens in that yeah, and I think that It would be good to think of that as a not as a church thing but as a

01:03:31

Human thing that just that is you know, you could say adorned or accented whatever word you want with christian

01:03:38

With christianity, so you're doing a very human thing by hiking It's not an official program of the church um

01:03:45

And and yet you're doing it as as christians So those that's kind of what i'm saying is that you can you can you can think of these two separate?

01:03:54

uh Realms and both are good, you know, but both are both are these good things as humans you need to yeah you need

01:04:01

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Um Uh thomas any any final thoughts?

01:04:06

Uh I want you guys both to plug kind of your website and everything as well if you have one but any thoughts

01:04:13

You want to add to that? Uh to anyone who's just kind of confused about all of this and hearing different things from christians and in the culture

01:04:23

Just uh, just to reiterate something. I said earlier. There's there's a lot of um of people out there present and past Who have said otherwise and who have uh

01:04:39

Validated I would say or in reinforced this sort of natural feeling that you might have or natural revulsion from The things you're hearing today and those those people are accessible um, if you want

01:04:52

I can I can give you some things to look at to read and You can check our our podcast out.

01:04:59

We kind of talk about this. Um As well ours politica, but that and this

01:05:06

Be encouraged, but also know that recovering this sort of identity of any sort It takes time and it takes consistent maintenance today

01:05:15

And the best thing you can do is to get into it now and get into it with other people Who are around you and for me?

01:05:23

that happens at sort of a A young level for children.

01:05:29

So if you have children You have to be active about this with your children. You can't be passive and just say

01:05:36

They're going to figure it out or whatever. They need more than the nuclear family is very important but they need more they need a community of people doing this together, so uh, almost every city or town you can find people who are pursuing recovering

01:05:53

Sort of western you're taking you're saying it takes a village. I'm just kidding. Yeah. Yeah, it takes a village, right?

01:05:59

Yeah That's really good. No, that's that's that's excellent And I mean I want that for my kids too.

01:06:05

I feel like I grew up now i'm realizing it's unique but you know, we would go to historical landmarks and I when

01:06:11

I was homeschooled and I was proud to be a harris. I was proud of you know, and I don't know just thankful really

01:06:17

I say pride but it was this Gratitude to be in america to be a christian all these things and um

01:06:24

Just how how rich that is? Uh, yeah Where can people find I know you said people can reach out to you.

01:06:30

What's the best way to do that? Twitter for me they you can find me on facebook

01:06:36

Facebook, uh, just times a quarter or twitter. I mean you can email us at rspoliticapodcastgmail .com

01:06:43

also Um, you can check out my school. I don't really like plugging that though But it's I teach at a school or you can just email me and we could talk about it

01:06:51

Well, um, I i'll put the the links in the info section So i'll put the rspolitica, uh link there and people can subscribe but you guys on itunes or just youtube or where Yeah, it's all the all the podcast places rspolitica

01:07:05

Gotcha, uh, steven, where can people find you? Same place.

01:07:10

Yeah. Yeah the same Okay Well, I know you both are on twitter and uh, you know facebook and I enjoy your posts

01:07:19

Um, and i'll put those links in the info section for anyone who wants to follow thomas the quarter steven wolf

01:07:25

Uh on twitter, uh, thank you guys so much for coming on and explaining some of these things I know we're just hitting the tip of the iceberg, but this is immensely helpful

01:07:33

For so many people even the people that just want to be reinforced in the idea that they're not crazy Um, you guys have helped and I appreciate that.

01:07:41

Thanks for having us on. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, god bless Well, I hope you enjoyed that and hope it was helpful to you in understanding why progressives go after nationalism now

01:07:50

There's many more things that could be said in fact, uh, I talked about the fact that nationalism as a term was first used by socialists by edward bellamy, uh,

01:08:00

He was the cousin of francis bellamy who gave us the pledge of allegiance and he formed these socialist clubs that he called nationalist clubs in the united states in the late 1800s and It's interesting to me that The origin of this term the way it was used

01:08:15

Um now it's kind of viewed as kind of an over the top patriotism by the progressive left

01:08:20

That's what it seems like at least but I went through some of the history of the use of the term And what I think the term means today you're going to want to check that video out

01:08:28

If you haven't seen it beth moore and christian nationalism, i'm putting the link in the info section for this video also, stephen wolf and thomas accord are recording a video specifically on christian nationalism, so We didn't actually get into that we were planning on it.

01:08:42

But uh, I don't know if it slipped my mind but uh, Stephen told me after I pushed the button to stop recording that they were planning on doing a whole episode on this they have a lot of thoughts and um, they're going to get more into this idea of mixing kind of um, civic and uh, and then ecclesiastical symbols and roles and that kind of thing and You know, is that appropriate when is it appropriate?

01:09:09

Uh, if ever those kinds of questions and um, And and so we kind of hopefully this was kind of the precursor to that This is kind of the intro and hopefully that's going to uh help you a little more