TLP 428: Is Your Family’s Tech Usage Healthy? | Nathan & Anna Sutherland Interview, Part 2

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This is part two of my conversation with Nathan and Anna Sutherland from Flint and Iron and the

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Gospel Tech Podcast. You really need to check out the amazing discount they're offering for their Family Tech Framework.

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It's so great. Now today we're talking about how to perform a tech reset, which will enable you to determine if you or other people in your family might need to re -evaluate their tech usage.

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Enjoy! Hello, friends. I welcome you again to Truth Love Parent.

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I am your host, AM Brewster, and today is part two of an interview we started last week. Now we plan to do four interviews in this series, and each of them builds on the previous.

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So if you didn't catch part one, I highly recommend that you start there. And for those of you who are returning with us today, you met the

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Sutherlands last time, but I still thought it would be fun to get to know them a little bit more. And one way I thought about doing that was asking them a little trivia question.

01:18

Welcome back, you guys. Thank you for having us. It's good to be back. All right. You ready for some trivia?

01:24

Yes. Yeah. All right. Here's the question. I'll ask it. I'll give you a minute to think while I give my answer.

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All right. Here's the question. What technology have you deliberately used in a way that the creator of the technology did not intend for it to be used?

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All right. So they made it to do this, but you ended up using it to do this. They would never have even thought that. All right.

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For me, it was back in the 90s. So I started this alternative rock band. I'm not going to tell you the name of the band.

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You may actually know it, but you're not going to drag it. So back then, most people, you know, they recorded their music in a studio.

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Right? Right. Now, we ended up doing that later on. Okay. We ended up recording a studio.

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But at the very beginning, I took this computer software that was called Acid. Yeah. I know. 90s computer software is the best.

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Move past the name. And I used it to record my band's music on my computer.

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Now, it's not really very impressive, but you have to understand this. Acid was designed for people to create music, but it was primarily just loop -based electronic music.

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And at the time, I was able to finagle the system and forced it into becoming what, you know, Apple's Garage Band and tons of apps do for you today.

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So yes, I was recording my music at home before it was cool or even possible for most people.

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Yeah. So how about you guys? Has there ever been a piece of tech that you thought, you know, I know it wasn't made for this, but I'm pretty sure

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I can make this work? I feel like yours is, you have a really good answer. Mine is,

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I'm hoping the Statue of Limitations has reached because - We have a friend who did this, is what we're trying to say.

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This friend was in college in the early 2000s and in the dorms, there was just, you could access file sharing to get into, right?

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You could share your Word documents was the intention, but instead I had this friend have access to everybody's music when you went to the file sharing service.

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So it was like Napster before Napster, like, great. I just got into the whole dorm, like, yeah.

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And I quit. It was me. You could just download, here's everybody in the halls music files and drag and drop them onto your computer.

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I feel like it was before we even knew that piracy was a thing. Thanks, open source research from college.

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We learned a lot. I don't think that's what they were intending for us to be doing on that network, but. Well done, Hannah. Well done.

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It was just - I salute you. Thank you. Well played. Yeah. Mine's not that exciting.

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I did actually think of one, but it actually just, it left while I was listening in raptured by your story. How devious your wife is.

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It's like, hey, it's like, I don't even know you. I literally don't have one.

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Oh, I do. I got it. So last episode - Oh, it's back. Good, good, good. We shared that we no longer have a television.

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And so my kind of breakthrough on that was I was looking at our laptop and it's like,

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I really want a TV that I can like go to, but not have like a room of my house dedicated to it.

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And so we have begun using a laptop like a television. And it's not at all intended to be that, but it actually is awesome with the amount of like kids shows that you can just have access to with how little we actually end up engaging television.

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And we have good enough internet connection that, yeah, we actually use a laptop as our

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TV for when we do use a television. And yeah, that's it.

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I have to say that, you know, Anna wins. Hers is cooler. I know.

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I was like, I was coming up with nothing. Hers is a little bit more. Yeah. Well, you're just clearly, you know, you just, you're not as creative as she is.

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This is true. She's really outside of the box thinker or maybe outside of the file folders.

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Outside of the law thinker. Outside of the law. Yeah, she's one of those. Weird Al Yankovic - It was a long time ago. Okay. Weird Al Yankovic has this song called

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Don't Download This Song, which is absolutely fantastic. It's so beautiful. And what

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I loved about it was that he put it free on his website. Anybody could download it. It was beautiful, but - I love it.

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Yeah. That's it. Just reminded me of you because he references all of that crazy stuff that we did back then when it was legally illegal.

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Anyway - It wasn't, there weren't rules about it yet. It was just the wild west. Yeah. Exactly. It was crazy.

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It was worse than Twitter. What in the world? True. Okay. So last time, if we don't get this train on the track, we are so in trouble.

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Okay. Last time, Nathan and Anna and I talked about their podcast, Gospel Tech. And I hope since then you obeyed the rules and you guys have subscribed and you started consuming their content.

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And I'm also hoping that many of you have taken advantage of their 50 % discount from their online workshop that they've offered for us

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TLP listeners. Now we also talked about how the gospel absolutely must permeate our tech usage.

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And we saw that tech generally falls into two different categories, tool tech and drool tech.

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You might think of it like productive tech and unproductive tech or work tech and entertainment tech.

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Neither one inherently better than the other when they're used proportionately. So today,

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Nathan and Anna are going to help us determine if our family's tech usage is healthy or unhealthy.

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And then we plan to talk about what to do if we discover that one or more people in our home have an unhealthy relationship with technology.

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So all right, you guys, you ready? How do I know if my tech use is healthy? Yeah. Do you want to tackle this one for the start?

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I think you could start. All right. We get this one a lot. I don't know. She is the more creative one. It's true.

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She'll let me know if I miss anything though. Don't worry. We get this a lot. I mean, speaking of school, speaking of churches, speaking just with like family, friends, like, well, you know, especially in time of quarantine, like, is this just a new normal that I'm not used to?

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Am I like one of those old people yelling at kids to get off my lawn? Or is this an actual problem that I need to intervene?

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Right? Because I don't know, like a lot of parents watch their kids participate in stuff like, man, I don't, I don't love it.

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Like I just kind of have this spidey sense that something's off. But if I address the kid or if I bring it up, like I'm worried

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I'm going to look stupid. I'm worried they're going to get mad at me. I'm worried that I'm going to get, you know, like exposed as someone who's technologically fogey.

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Yeah. Right. And so like, what do we do? And so the reset's a really nice way. You basically look at five areas of your life.

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I would encourage you to actually first assess like how much tool tech, how much drool tech from when you wake up to when you go to sleep.

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If you have a smartphone. Can I say something? You may. I think the first thing you have to do before having this conversation with somebody else in your house is you have to assess your own tech use.

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Oh yeah. So before you come to a child or a spouse and say, I'm concerned about your tech and I would like to have this conversation.

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I think most of us. There's a verse for that. Yes. There's a verse for that.

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Get the blink out of your own eye. Right. But I think to have an honest self assessment is a really, and to come at it from a humble attitude instead of a self righteous, like my tech use is so perfect and I'm doing such a great job and look at you over here doing this.

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Like, let's have this conversation together and let's work through this, this Reese week.

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Nathan calls it a reset together and be on the same team instead of an attack. Yeah. Well, that's exactly what happened with me.

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Only it wasn't the attack, but you know, I gave my, actually I said he was 13, he is 13, but he's almost 14 year old, um, a cell phone.

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And I started to realize that some of the expectations I had for him, I didn't have for this guy standing right here.

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And I realized that the hypocrisy of that, that I didn't even see it, you know, myself, but I'm wanting it for him cause

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I listened to gospel tech and I know how important it is for him. Um, but yeah, so totally great advice starting with me first and digesting it and applying it for myself before I go pointing fingers at everyone else in the house and the specs they have in their technological eyes.

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Right. Right. Okay. So go back to what's a reset. That's really good. Cause I can just get excited and, uh, get people all riled up and then they just want to bring a truth hammer on people.

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And that is not the goal. Like the goal of this resource is not to let you get the ammunition to win some argument about technology and be like,

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Nathan said, so yeah, one, you're undermining yourself in your own family and two, you're losing all of the opportunity to minister and love to that person.

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Um, and really show them Christ love and action. So boom, nailed it. Uh, with this reset, then we look at our own first and then others.

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Uh, how does it impact? Does basically you're asking the question, does techno technology impede my relationships and responsibilities, my enjoyment, sleep, emotions, and time.

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And if you read any of the acronym, it's an acronym, it's an

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R E S E T yes. Yeah. And so, uh, the idea that language arts teacher just couldn't stay caged inside me had to come out with an acronym and, uh, and the idea there being, if you've read all the research, um, these are really the five areas where technology can be concerning and usually it's drool tech.

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Right? So we're talking nine out of 10 times drool tech is going to be the impediment in one of those areas. Um, I do want to, when we talk drool tech, what to say the four major categories kind of so people can be mulling on this as we're talking through it, uh, would be music, social media games, and then your shows or streaming personalities or whatever you're doing for kind of that entertainment piece.

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So those are kind of four categories and we look at, all right, does this impact my relationships from responsibilities, the people that I've committed to the things

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I've done. So in this case, it wouldn't be, it would be the case of like, well, my kid loves, you know, as committed to playing this sport as serving in this area or family dinners, right?

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Like things that we're just expected to do as part of a family. And now I'm forgoing this because I'm on my phone, on my laptop, right on that, whatever.

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I've got my headphones on, I'm sitting in a corner, locked away, listening to my music. And while music is great, that can be concerning, right?

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So that'd be our first is, can I, do you want me to run through them real quick? Was that helpful?

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Yeah. Go, go, go through those again. And so the R stood for? Relationships and responsibilities. Yep. Second one.

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So you're saying that if my, so if my tech usage is interfering with those or dragging them down or those relationships, neglecting them, okay.

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So then that would be a red flag going, hmm, okay, this, this tech usage would, whether it's drool or tool tech, like for example, if I'm working, you know, 10, 12, 15 hours a day and I'm never seeing my family,

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I could say that my tool tech potentially is also impeding my relationships. Right. Sure.

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Yeah. And your responsibility as a, as a father and a husband, right? Like you have a responsibility more than just paying the bills.

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So may, man, is this, is this job going to change? Like, is this just a season where, you know what, having a baby, like we had a baby 20 months ago, like having a baby impedes my sleep and my relationships and my emotion, right?

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Like if I went through, but it's this season and we're doing it, it's the only option.

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Ah, and so that idea of like, all right, we're going to look at this reasonably.

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We understand we all have bad days. We all understand like that, that's, this is reality that we're living in and especially in time of quarantine.

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So it's not just if you have any error ever, then throw it out the window. But, but to truly assess like, is there a pattern here?

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Is there a pattern? And is this hindering my ability to be who God has called me to be? And for some of us, it's going to be a glaring yes.

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And this is why it's helpful to actually go through. So spouses, I would strongly encourage you to go through because I have a lot of spouses who asked me if I would talk to their spouse for them.

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And the answer is a hard no, that's not my job. No, but like, I will give you this resource and you can do it lovingly and prayerfully and have an amazing marital opportunity there.

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Like that's the goal here. So yes. I want to get to the other letters here for a second. I want to get to that, but before we do that, since no doubt everyone's driving or washing dishes right now, is there some place where they can go to, is there like a copy of the reset or a copy of the acronym or something?

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Yeah, there's two. So the first would be actually on that. You mentioned the online tech framework. So the family tech framework, the online workshop comes with these kind of three to five minute videos and then basically six sections that you go through to talk about resets and what are the types of tech and how do we build this kind of common language with our family and the second part makes a framework.

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And so that's the first spot to go. The second is you can go to gospeltech .net and on gospeltech .net,

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it'll be in the articles. I believe it's news and articles is the subject heading. It's a new hot website from us.

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So we're still getting used to it, which is why you're like, why don't you know what it's called? Cause it is brand new. So there's a blog post that walks you through the reset and what that conversation can look like.

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Kind of some more anecdotal stuff. Okay. All right. So then the E is? E is emotions.

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Yep. So if, if your tech use is impacting your emotions, so this might be, I feel like especially in kids would be like those big swings of, okay, your gaming time is over, your phone time is over and we can't just walk away.

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I'm mad if I don't get it. I'm mopey if I don't get it or even adults, cause I feel like it's, we like to say this is just kids, but I feel like I've seen that in my own heart sometimes like, oh,

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I didn't get my show time or I didn't get my five minutes to scroll through whatever I was hoping for. And I feel like the, your emotional reaction to that can be a big indicator of the place it's holding in your heart.

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Yeah. Yeah. For me, I have this, I've got this app that I do like brain training on, um, you know, cause that's supposed to be better than just playing a game.

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Right. Um, but there have been times where I've not performed as well as I wanted to. And I've seen my brain score going down and I'm, I'm getting frustrated.

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I'm getting aggravated. That would also be an example of that. Yeah. Yep. That's the

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E. And I'll leave this to the end. Just this idea that as you're going, just note it's a yes or no, it's binary.

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So it's not like, well, I kind of am like, no, no. Like if it's relationships, responsibilities, if it's emotions and you have any flags come up, it's a yes.

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And just leave it at a yes. Like we'll talk about what to do about that, but we have to be very honest.

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And if you don't feel you can be objective, ask someone, parents, ask your kids. One of my favorite questions and talks with young adults, we're talking fifth grade through high school, uh, would be what unhealthy tech use do you see happen in your family?

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And they can, they're keeping a mental list, folks. They see it. They know better than to say it, but if you ask for their honest feedback and promise they won't get grounded for saying it, uh, the texting and driving that we do, the amount of time we check our phone or check our smartwatch at the dinner table, like the stuff that is just second nature.

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We don't realize it. Your kids will let you know. So emotions is the second one. Next one.

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Sleep. The S is sleep. Is it impacting your sleep? So, oh man, that's sleep.

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Sleep is huge because like the research shows us that it literally impacts everything. It impacts your ability to retain information, your ability to process emotions, your orbital frontal cortex, uh, which allows you some inhibition actually quits being as active when you are sleep deprived, especially in developing brains.

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And they already don't really have one. So it doesn't get fully developed until I think 23, 24.

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So, uh, sleep is crazy important. And if we are breaking our sleep to write down that note, check that one thing, send that last snap, like whatever we're doing, um, we are impeding really our, our highest potential and, and the opportunities

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God has given us. So, uh, we need to take sleep seriously. It is a huge deal. Uh, I mean, even down to working out, like if you're someone who takes exercise seriously, the research on what two groups taking the same supplements do, but one group gets under six hours and one group gets over eight hours.

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Uh, just the amount of muscle mass and fat retention that occurs is nuts. So work smarter, not harder, get your sleep and don't let tech impede it.

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Awesome. All right. The next E is enjoyment. And this one can be misunderstood, uh, because we do develop, like I like things that I didn't like 10 years ago.

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Right. So our kids growing up and begin, uh, broccoli, for example, but changing your enjoyment isn't necessarily bad.

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I'm not talking about, man, my kid used to love Legos and now they want to use AutoCAD. Uh, I'm talking to him, man, my kid used to love

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Legos, but now all they want to do is play Fortnite and Fortnite is their jam. And we come up with all these reasons.

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It's fine to like Fortnite, but not if it comes at the expense of these things that are wired into you. And I will just use this as the example.

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We have three kiddos. Um, Hadley's still kind of developing her personality as she's coming upon to here, but Owen and Henry are wired very uniquely.

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Like Owen makes a list. He keeps it. I found a sticky note on my desk yesterday and it was the top five things

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Owen was going to do after waking up. Okay. And if he's seven, but he checks them off as he goes through his day,

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Henry's never made a list in his life. And right. He just, he's very laissez faire about everything and they get joy out of different things.

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Henry's the best thing you can do is be funny. If I'm like, Henry, what'd you think about that? He's like, it was funny.

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And that's like the highest compliment he can get, right? Oh, and it's, if it's organized, right. Organized and maybe not too loud.

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And so when, if I were to see those boys change their, their enjoyment, like if Owen suddenly became like this very aggressive, like outgoing individual, and it always was related to his time on that device, his time on that app, his time on that game.

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Right. I'm going to go, you know what? Like I'm seeing this change in what you enjoy and how you're wired.

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And it's specifically tied to this particular outlet. I would just make note of that.

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And that would be part of this conversation. So we're not saying people don't change. We're not saying you can't be enthralled with technology because there are some really enthralling cool opportunities, but we're looking for those really distinct, like, man,

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I Spidey sense starts tingling. If it's the enjoyment that's shifting, just watch it. That'll be part of the conversation.

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So that's the last E. And then the last letter is T in the reset for your time.

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Yep. Is it, can you stop when you say you're going to stop? Can you walk away from it? Like if we have a, you're allowed to play for 30 minutes, whatever the parameters are, can you walk away?

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If you can't or constantly going over that time limit or sneaking time or lying about your time use, then that's a red flag that something's, something's not right here.

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Yeah. Yeah. And so, oh, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. Tag, you're it. Yeah. All right.

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Sweet. So you have those five. You have your relationships and responsibilities. You have your enjoyment, your sleep, your emotions.

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Or I think we did those emotions, sleep, enjoyment and time. And so you have those five.

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And so you walk through yours like, man, does tech get in the way of any of these? And then you ask someone, a close friend, your spouse, your kids, and then you walk through that.

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And what you do then is you go, all right, I need to acknowledge that this is a thing in my life. Like I've seen this as a deal. Now I need to pray through,

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Lord, what do we need to do with this? Like, is this an area of my life where I'm saying, hey, you don't have the right to take this from me?

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I, I deserve this. I, my argument was I worked hard, right? I'm an adult. I don't do a lot of crazy stuff.

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There's nothing morally wrong with my drool tech and I'm okay with this. So that means everyone else needs to be okay with it too.

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But it was, I was a four out of five, right? On a reset. Like I was clearly not healthy in this area.

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So the question needs to be, well, does it need to draw down? Do you need to change when you're using it, how you're using it, more accountability?

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Or is it just a full, we need to cut it off, gouge it out and move on to something better as a, as a replacement, trusting that God's going to be enough that we can convince ourselves we need things that really we just want.

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And I think that's an important conversation with a reset to have so that then when you go to somebody else to have it, you can share kind of what

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God's doing in your heart as you present to them. Like, here's what, like, I love you. We see who you're made in Christ and these areas are concerning to us.

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Do you see that? Like, that's the initial, initial conversation. Like, do you see that when you use this or listen to that music or on that app, that your attitude changes or that what you enjoy doing or that your commitment to the family or to those things that you said you were going to do, like our yes needs to be yes or no needs to be no.

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And this is making you waffle, right? Like, are you seeing that? And just starting there. And sometimes most kids have a pretty good idea.

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Um, yeah, most kids aren't going to be blindsided by that, but. Now, I imagine there are some people listening who are thinking of this tool, right?

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And if they, if they had those five areas and they got yeses in all of them, okay, that it's affecting me in each of these areas, they'd be like, wow,

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I need a reset. There are probably other people who are like, you know, if I'm, if I got half of those, you know, or, you know, even two of those, three of those,

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I probably need to consider a reset, but I'm kind of thinking that even if one, if my technology is negatively affecting even one of those areas,

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I need to strongly consider a reset. Yeah, I, I, yes, you're absolutely right.

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And the point here is not legalism. The point isn't, I'm going to have a perfect life so that I can feel good about myself and start judging the people around me.

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The point is, do we want everything God has for us? Right. That we were told in Ephesians 2 10, that we were saved for good works he has prepared for us to do.

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And if I'm getting distracted from those good works, I'm not just not doing what God told me, like that is sinful and concerning, but like,

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I'm also missing out on the joy that he's prepared for me. Like he didn't just prepare work so that I busy and like the devil can't get my hands to do bad things.

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Like, no, like he loves me and wants the best for me and everything he does for me is good.

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So removing this technology, if that's what he's asking us to do is a good thing and we're not giving up anything.

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I'm reminded of the, the parable of the guy who was walking through a field and found all the treasure. And often that parable is taught with like, look what that gave man gave up for Jesus.

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Like you should give stuff up for Jesus too. When we recognize like, no, that's the opposite of Jesus point.

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Jesus point is that guy gave up nothing. Like sure. He sold his house and got like a palace worth of fortune for it.

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Like he gave up like what little trinket did that man lose in that transaction that he didn't make over a hundred fold.

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And that's when we're talking about technology, that's what we're talking about. Like you might give up something that is so shiny and so nice and you, it feels so important right now.

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And if God's really asking you to give that up, like releasing that you lose nothing, you only gain more of God and more space to be available for the work he's asking you to do.

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And that's joy and that's peace and that's purpose. And that's absolutely the point of the time we're given in this life is to glorify

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God and, um, revel in him. So, yeah. Amen. And that right there, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect example of how

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Nathan and Anna are constantly bringing the gospel to bear on this. The gospel is not legalism.

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Okay. It's not like if I cut this thing out of my life, I'm going to go to heaven. No, that's not how it works. It's a relationship with God where, uh, like Matthew chapter five, you know, the beatitudes starting off there.

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Um, yes, if you do this thing, if you recognize that you are spiritually destitute, if that grieves you, if you come meekly before me.

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Um, if you hunger and thirst after righteousness, the blessings far exceed that. But at the same time, we're not taking advantage of that relationship in order to get the blessings.

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It, it, it's such a beautiful picture and it needs to always be in focus and everything that we're doing, including our tech usage.

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And I don't know about the listeners, but just going through that process, those five things I can recognize where I either have unhealthy tech use or am tempted to have unhealthy tech news use.

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Like I said, you know, getting aggravated and frustrated, uh, with that game I'm playing. Uh, and then in regard to our children, you know, given that most of them are less physically and spiritually mature than we are, we can be certain that they are going to struggle at least as much as we do and likely far worse.

25:30

So what does the Bible have to say about a Christian's response to unhealthy tech? So we use the reset, we recognize, all right,

25:38

I can tell here pragmatically, um, that there are going to be, there are some issues. I, it's affecting this, it's affecting that.

25:46

Well, now what do I want to do? Yeah. Yes. I think we, we see really clearly and believe that it talks about removing and then we'll talk about replacing.

25:57

Cause I don't think we can just say, okay, I'm going to get rid of this tech and then just sit and not fill that void with something.

26:07

So, but I think it's pretty clear that if something's causing us to send, like you said, like sometimes that does just need to get removed completely.

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Do you want to talk more about that? So I think the, you go Matthew five or Matthew 18, uh, eight.

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And so I'll just read it here. Cause I want to, I want, I want you to hear, uh, Jesus where it's not mine. If your hand or foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you.

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It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

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If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

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And the beauty of that is this picture of like, man, like what we need is Jesus because he has given us access to the father, right?

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He's bringing us in as heirs of God and co -heirs with Christ. We're now filled with the Holy spirit so that we're empowered to do the good works.

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I don't have to go, God, please like help me with this thing. Like, no, he already did. Like we repent and turn to the feet of Jesus.

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And in, in that we are now empowered for that work. So we start to live in it, right? We don't have to spend our lives begging for God to have mercy on us.

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Like he's had mercy on us. That's the whole reason judgment's going to come. Like, you know, the only reason judgment is there is because we've denied mercy.

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Like we picked that. And that idea of when we gouge out and we cut off, it isn't a mark of our righteousness as a mark of our need.

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That is an act of faith. And so, and my life personally, that has been gaming.

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So shout out to the gamers out there. I still love gaming. I still do a lot of research. I do game reviews. I do not play them.

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And it's been nine years. Uh, we were married. I had a master's degree. We, I had a career job and that was going well, but I'll tell you this.

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I was heavily convicted, uh, through a sermon about addiction. And, uh,

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I had stayed up too late gaming one night and the, the pastor basically said, Hey, if you are asking God to help you manage your sin, you're praying the wrong prayer.

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God doesn't manage sin. He kills it. And literally my 2am prayer had been dear Jesus help this game.

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Not get in the way of who you want me to be. Amen. And I went to bed, right? So four hours later, I'm sitting in church here in the sermon.

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Uh, and the conviction led me to, well, all right, I have this 10 hours a week. I'm not gaming. I started serving with young people in young life.

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I realized it's not teaching kids in a classroom. It's teaching kids in a greater perspective. And it literally has brought us to this podcast right here.

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Um, because we faithfully stepped where God had asked us. Now, I'm not going to tell you, God's going to make you do a podcast or quit your job if you leave this tech.

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But I'm going to say it is not worth holding on to whatever that little thing was. Um, so that's just an example that has been all too real in my life.

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Uh, and I think as we walk out, it's, you gouge it out, you cut it off and then you replace it with whatever

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God has equipped you with a passion. Like most misused tech comes from like most sins, right?

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A twisting or a distortion of something good that God has put in you. Um, and so my love of adventures, my love of people, my love of excitement.

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Well, you can meet that really quick in a video game. Um, but you have no reason to extend past that video game.

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If you're like me, that becomes kind of the pinnacle of your existence and it did for me. So, uh,

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God has then replaced that with other adventures and with ones that frankly, they're a little bit slower. Uh, working a nonprofit doesn't quite give the same minute to minute thrills of a triple -A video game rush.

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Right. It's just not quite there. I don't level up nearly as much in real life as I did in video games, but it's absolutely been worth it because of the joy of doing this work and I've seen people set free.

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And, um, I know that that joy is available for anyone who would faithfully take it, that joy of being more present with your family and the person

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God's making it to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the biblical counseling arena, we refer to that as radical amputation.

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Being willing to say this thing, is this helping me become more like Christ or is this hindering me?

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And if it's hindering me, why do I want that in my life? We don't, we don't do that really in any other area of our lives, except for our spiritual growth and our eating.

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Those are generally the only times where we're like, this poison's okay. I'll be fine.

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You know, pretty much everywhere, everywhere else in our lives. We're like, oh no, that might kill me. Let's get it out of my life.

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Or, oh no, this is, you know, this is going to give me cancer. This is, it's a, it's radioactive. I should probably not be standing next to it.

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And we get it in other areas, but in our, in our food consumption and in our tech, oftentimes in our spiritual life, we just don't get it.

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We say this thing, it's okay. I know it's not good for me. It's not helping me become more like Christ, but it's okay.

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And this passage from Matthew 18 just makes it perfectly clear that sometimes, many times we have to radically amputate that old thing.

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And then I love what both of you said. Um, that whole idea, it's, it's not just getting rid of it. It's about, you know,

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Jesus says that we need to cast our cares and our burdens on him, but then he tells us to take up our cross and follow him to take up his burden, which is light.

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And I'm reminded of Ephesians 4, 22 through 24. I'll read it here too. It says in reference to your former manner of life, okay.

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Former, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit.

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So we see that that cancer -like effect it's having and that you'd be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

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And then you put on the new self, which is in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

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And it's so beautiful because it doesn't mean like, oh no, I'm completely without, this is a terrible, awful metaphor, but it just came to my mind and it helps.

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If you've seen Harry Potter, if you've read it, there's this place where this, this, uh, that one of the bad guys, uh, his henchmen has to literally chop off his arm in order to help his, his dark

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Lord master come back. And he does that. It's, it's, it's, it's so his loyalty and his, his fear and whatnot was just, it's, it was crazy, but he actually did it.

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Well, then when the, when this dark Lord rises, he actually gives him this magical replacement to his arm.

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And it's more powerful and it's, it's shiny, but, um, you know, that's, I said, that's a terrible example because we have this awful person serving this other awful person, but he, that awful person was willing to sacrifice a limb in order to bring his, his false

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God back to life. And he was rewarded for it. Well, if that, as that is such a terrible example in a much more infinitely glorious and fantastic way, when

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God says, listen, you need to cut this out of your life. This is not helping you. This is not pleasing me. You need to get rid of it.

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He is, he wants us to replace that and he wants us to replace it with things with him really for first and foremost, and then the joy that he brings, the fulfillment that he brings, the, the, the excitement and the, the fervor for life that he brings when we're living the life that he created us to live, uh, set free from those shackles is so more abundantly amazing and wonderful than whatever it was we left behind.

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It's like C .S. Lewis talking about little kids playing in a mud puddle. Um, not wanting to go to the beach because they don't, they have no idea.

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They can't even conceive of how great that would be. And that's what we're talking about here. You know, can we give this thing up?

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One of this, whatever it happens to be on here, or can we give things up on here? Um, in order, by the way,

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I picked it up and someone texted me, Hey, check me, check me.

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Can we, can we cut that off? Trusting God's promise that what will, what his fulfillment joy through pleasing him is so much more enriching than anything that the world has to offer.

33:41

Yeah, amen. And, and for some of us, like there are people I know who can use their reset and be like, no,

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I'm a zero out of five. And then we go, all right, well, how do we, how do we maintain that? Cause we're going to continue to develop a new tech is going to show up and there's bound to be something that we find irresistible.

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So, um, if you're a zero out of five, that's amazing. Like now let's just, how do you establish that continued health as your kids continue to grow and as people enter your house and like there's those other forms of engagement.

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So yeah, that's awesome. Honestly, if you're a zero out of five, I'd like to have you on the show. We can cancel the rest of it. And you can come work for us.

34:15

That'd be great. Exactly. Exactly. All right. So as a, as a biblical counselor, again,

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I just cannot stress enough how important this step is of doing the reset. Okay. Too many Christians, we just waft through our life, assuming that we're making good choices because things just kind of seem to be working out, but God's commanded us to be discerning students of the word, right?

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So we need to intentionally and premeditatedly investigate our choices to determine whether or not they're helping us glorify

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God, or if they're simply being used to gratify our flesh. If we truly want to parent our children for life and godliness, right?

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We must leave no stone unturned. We can't say, I'm going to check all this stuff over here, but you know, the tech thing, that's okay because the gospel needs to permeate everything in our lives.

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That includes our tech usage. Therefore, we need to seriously consider whether our tech is pleasing the Lord and therefore healthy for our families.

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Oh man, this is so rich. So awesome. Thank you again, Nathan and Anna for your time. It's been so valuable. Thank you for having us.

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Thank you for letting us be here. I'm super, very much looking forward to continuing this conversation with you guys even more, because it's one thing to understand what technology is.

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It's another thing to be able to determine if it's healthy or unhealthy. And even understanding how to cut it out of our lives is so helpful, but a healthy spiritual life is not merely about jettisoning the bad, okay?

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We must renew our minds and put on the good. So to that end, next time we'll be discussing how you can create a family tech framework, which will help your whole family develop a healthy relationship with your tech.

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I hope you guys will all subscribe to, uh, sorry. Well, yes, Gospel Tech 2. Also, Truth Love Parent.

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You know, while you're at it, hit that subscribe button and I invite you to click the link in the description to learn more about the

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Gospel Tech online workshop and the Sutherland's gracious 50 % discount off of that.