SLC : Debate with Richard Hopkins of BYU and Interference from Proteste

Good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White and we are live Here on the Internet and I hope everyone is able to tune in today. We are we're doing something new today. Yes, indeed.

We have actually allowed Rich Pierce out of his dungeon he he has been allowed out of the the Alpha Omega Ministries dungeon and He and his family have actually gone on vacation they're on their way back but what that means is that we are we do be winging it and The captain's chair has been filled by lieutenant Sulu.

Lieutenant Sulu is in charge of the ship today. Warren Smith is is Sitting there going. Okay. He says it's way too loud in his headphones. What do I do about that? Oh, his ears are bleeding. Oh, that's not a good thing.

And so we have him a very worried over there that That's something desperate is going to happen. So when folks start calling him Please be kind to Warren because Warren is is Warren is doing his best windows impersonation today he is multitasking and.

So we need to be nice nice to Warren because you know what happens when you're not nice to windows you get the blue screen of death and if I just hear the door close and silence on the other side. And then we'll know that Warren also just sort of walked away as well.

So that's sort of how it might might work and that really would not be a good thing. So actually we should just have everybody call in all at once and just see how much she can actually handle I did that to a Windows system once you know, how many programs can you actually throw at a Metapro at a computer before it just you know ups and dies and maybe that's what we can do.

If everyone starts calling in at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three all at the same time and Then he'll be sitting there going. Yeah, so anyways. Everybody's hearing us and in fact, we're doing better than we've done for weeks.

When you think about it, in fact, I could think of someone out there probably hoping That everything's going to just die all of a sudden because if we make it through this perfectly I can I can guarantee there's be someone going.

Hmm well, you know so on so forth anyways. No, there was no program last week. Those of you who have been griping and complaining and wondering There was no program last week because we couldn't do a program last week I suppose we could have asked Warren to come in and set up the stream and Then come in here and do the program and talk and then when the calls came in he gives a hold on a second run over to the next room and take the calls and do things like that, but that probably wouldn't have been a really good idea either and We couldn't do it from Couldn't do it from up there in in Salt Lake City.

We don't have the ability to remote broadcast in that way I suppose if rich was here and I was up there then certainly we could do it. But we weren't able to do that. We were in Salt Lake City. Last week we did something we hadn't done.

I don't know. We were sitting in the car wondering about how long it had been it was somewhere around 94 95 maybe 96 somewhere along in the middle 90s we stopped we stopped driving to Salt Lake City, and we started flying and That's been nice because it's 654 miles to Salt Lake City.

That's depending on how fast you're driving anywhere from a 9 hour to a 12 hour drive and Also, how long you stop to eat and whether you just do drive-thrus and and how fast you fill up the gas tank and all.

The rest that kind of stuff and of course at least since the middle 90s these speed limits went up and so that does cut it down just a little bit, but it's still a pretty long drive from Phoenix to To Salt Lake City and starting in 1984 we drove that all the time twice a year that's before times a year we would drive up to Salt Lake City and.

And.

After a while it Especially after you you you turn you go through Panguitch, Utah. Actually, there's a couple really dry spots along the way. Once you get out of Flagstaff, and you're gone the Navajo reservation up to up toward page You can you just can't look at a whole lot of red rocks.

I mean after a while, okay, I've seen enough and they all look the same now, and it gets a little boring and There's always you could you could make the quick stop at that Metropolitan Mecca of tourism called the gap up there on the On the reservation that would always be an enjoyable thing to do and the fact I stopped there one night I was driving up.

Why was it nighttime? I forget why it was but I was driving. I was driving my 1970 was a 74 VW Beetle it was a Sun bug it was gold and I remember pulling into the gap around midnight and Sleeping for a couple hours there in the gap I was all alone, and that was really dumb thing to do to drive up there all alone, but anyways I did it.

Well anyhow, and then once you once you go up through Panguitch, Utah you go over on on this little 20. It's about 20 miles as 20 takes you over to I -15 and from I -15 up until about Provo. It's just It's just one of those trips.

Just it's it's really about as exciting as back in the Navajo reservation. And then you start getting into some city traffic and stuff, but anyways we hadn't done that in a long long time but in light of September 11th, and we were going to.

We were gonna. You know we thought for a while We were gonna be videotaping the debate that was gonna take place Friday night. We decided not to do that. I think we could have it wouldn't be any difference, but the point was when we take these flights frequently we do them standby and We carry on a bunch of stuff well right now.

That's not a good thing. You know I mean we might still be standing in line if we had tried to do that so we decided to. We decided to drive and So Rich Pierce and Larry Vondra and myself we left right after I got done teaching High school classes Thursday morning.

Actually would have been a little bit afternoon. We got started. I sat in the back and graded high school papers and turned in grades via the phone and in fact at one point I Demonstrated that I'm a complete techno geek by getting into our chat room Via my cell phone on my laptop in the back of the car outside of Flagstaff now that was I Was only there for about five minutes.

But it was enough to impress the other techno geeks in the chat room. That I am the king of techno geeks because nobody else had ever done that I did it first and everybody else is going well I could have if I had wanted to but they didn't and so anyways and So we got up there on Thursday, and then Friday evening Was the debate now this is somewhat new and in fact it's somewhat unusual because Mormons generally don't do debates.

I mean Van Hale did a debate with Walter Martin back in the 80s that yeah, but you just it's just not as normative as you have with With Roman Catholics or things like that. It's just somewhat unusual.

And.

So Starting let's see when did we first do it? I guess we've done it each time. No. I think we skipped one Starting a little while ago. I remember how long ago We had a debate with a Roman Catholic in Salt Lake City the night before the conference.

Which we've never even offered because it really wasn't much of a debate. I mean my opponent was a former Baptist who became Roman Catholic. He's an RCIA instructor up there, and It was supposed to be on justification and in his opening statement.

He he said things like Well, you know we all believe the same thing now thanks to the Lutheran Catholic Accord, and we all believe in justification by faith now and and He even said the Catholics are now allowed to pray to st. Martin Luther.

Which you know I'm sort of sitting there looking at this guy going man. This is really weird in fact the only only Notable thing about that entire debate was that some King James only pastor guy tried to trap me afterwards and twisted my words and and Wrote an article and all the rest of stuff, and it was after that debate.

Isn't it interesting a King James only pastor would have to come to a Roman Catholic debate to try to trip me up. But anyways, so that's the first debate we did then six months ago we arranged a debate and Jason Wallace and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church up in Salt Lake City.

Which you need to pray for of course obviously up there since they are yeah I I think they should be considered a foreign missions work actually I think anyone doing that kind of That kind of mission that kind of church work in Salt Lake City Should be considered being a foreign missionary, but anyways Jason Wallace and the OPC are the folks up there who are Sponsoring these debates and Six months ago.

They contacted Jason Jason Jason's a nice guy, and he can get on the phone and he can be very nice, and I guess he's a whole lot nicer than me and sounds a lot nicer than me because He would call farms the foundation research of Mormon studies.

And they would say well talk to this person talk to that person and he'd slowly be handed down the chain until six months ago. We had debate with Richard Hopkins now mr. Hopkins at the time Was the head of horizon publishers, and he's written two books one was called biblical Mormonism.

The other one sent about how Greek philosophy has corrupted the Christian view of God or something along those lines, and I knew I knew mr. Hopkins I had I had done his radio program about two or three years before that.

In fact one night. I'd done a four-hour Marathon on Salt Lake City radio on a Sunday evening where we were on for two hours with Van Hale And built its Van Hale and Bill Forrest at the program, but I had not met Bill Forrest until actually last week and We were on two hours Van Hale and two hours with with mr. Hopkins and Turned out to be a very interesting program, but anyways I knew of him.

I knew of his book I I really felt that his book demonstrated. He had no concept of what Christian theology actually is but Was unable to convince him of that and so we had a debate on the on the nature of man and the issue of free will and I don't know how many people were there a hundred and twenty hundred and forty.

Maybe I don't know Maybe less than that. I I'm not really really sure about that, but Anyways, we had the debate and it went pretty well. You know for our first run at it and and I think it's pretty unusual in the Salt Lake the Salt Lake Valley for there to be a Evangelical slash Mormon debate and So it went pretty well.

So after that debate then this next time I get a call from Jason and he has arranged To have a debate with dr. Roger Keller. Now I was I'll admit going up there. I didn't think this was gonna work I Didn't think it was gonna work for a couple of various and sundry reasons, but I I had met Roger Keller once he there's No way, he would ever remember me.

Because I hadn't met him when I was in college.

And.

I don't look anything like I looked in college, and he looked pretty much the same to me anyways from what I remember seeing and He had been out here in Arizona, in fact, I look so little like I did in college that last night was the beginning of my 20th high school reunion and Fellow that I knew from sixth grade on we had been best friends in in in Sixth grade and then through junior high school and all the rest of stuff walked up to him and he had no Idea who in the world I was just I gave him all sorts of hints told him about trips.

We had taken together up to Lake Powell and all this stuff is still Had no idea when I finally told him he was like you've got to be kidding. Anyways, that is neither here nor there. He wouldn't of course remember what I looked like, but I remembered his story.

He had been a Presbyterian a PC USA minister and Somehow, I'm not sure how as a PC USA minister. He had also Hmm pastored as I recall in in a United Methodist Church and anybody who Who knows Presbyterians and Methodists?

No, they're not exactly on the same page theologically, but remember liberals are liberals and he was a liberal PC USA minister, so a liberal PC USA minister and a liberal Liberal United Methodist what does matter you could all you know get together doesn't really matter.

So I had remembered his conversion story. I'd remembered that even while he was a Presbyterian pastor he was presenting a view of Mormonism that I knew was was not what Mormons actually believe and and We had opposed him going around doing that kind of thing.

And then I had heard that he had left once he converted to Mormonism. He had left the area and was teaching at BYU and I really hadn't heard much more about him since then until Jason called me and said well We've arranged for a debate with Roger Keller.

Well, I had his book Reformed Christians and Mormon Christians. Let's talk and I had never really sat down done much with it. I had sort of skimmed through it went Oh, this is interesting. But so I grabbed that took it with me on the way up to a Salt Lake City, of course.

And.

In the process of reading it was was fascinated what I was seeing in fact even at one point.

Oh.

I'm sorry. I'm digging a spear out of my back that was thrown by someone in the chat room right now who is complaining that. What sound like I'm doing is like when his wife sits down to talk about a day of shopping.

Well, thank you very very much if if by if I didn't have to maintain Concentration what I was saying my my little mouse would find a way to go find my pop-ups and send a certain person Packing through cyberspace right now for that particular comment.

So.

Anyways.

Thank you. So so much for your for your kind comments.

Anyways.

In looking through the book I found it fascinating that when at one point some some Charts are provided for what salvation is all about and He even marked the viewpoint that was his at the time as Neo-orthodox.

He's got the Mormon. He's got the standard evangelical and he's got the neo-orthodox and I'm like That's interesting and so I start I start reading through the text this guy as a as a as a Presbyterian Was a universalist he was in fact during during the course of the Debate.

You've got to try to picture this those of you who weren't there. You've got to try to picture this we Next time around we need to change this because it's a little bit hokey, but we don't have a podium we have basically a six-foot table and The two debaters sit on opposite ends.

It's well. You sit at the opposite end of the table and then Jason Wallace sits in the middle and he is sort of the. He's sort of the the stoic moderator type guy. He just sits there and announces what's next and may and and keep things going and keeps the time.

But he he stays out of it. Well at one point during the cross-examination I was bringing out some of these issues about where he was coming from. And he he made the comment yes, I would take the position of Karl Barth the happy Calvinist and as soon as he said Karl Barth the happy Calvinist Jason just he couldn't help it.

He just he busted up I mean he was trying to be you know, absolutely stoic and it's just he just busted up he couldn't he couldn't couldn't handle it the happy Calvinist and Got a good chuckle out of the audience on that one later on though in the same interaction Bart's name came up again, and and I forget the exact context, but at some point.

He's he I had gotten some laughter going for something I had said and and he's he made some comment along the lines of well Yeah, Bart's taken a lot of heat for that and I said yeah literally and the whole place just just broke up laughing.

Hysterically at that particular point so it's it was it was a good interchange at that point, but anyways This dr. Keller went as a Presbyterian was a very liberal Presbyterian and Not only that but he When he would read the Westminster Standards he he brought with him the Westminster Standards.

He admitted that as a Presbyterian. As as a Presbyterian He had found the the teaching of The Westminster Confession regarding God and his sovereign decree and the issue of reprobation. To be Monstrous he as a Presbyterian he had viewed that as monstrous as just being horrible.

He had never accepted that. So obviously he was never truly a Presbyterian at least not in the historical sense. There's lots of modern PC USA Presbyterians though that would agree with him. They they don't believe believe that that's what is really taught there anyway, so.

Anyhow, so that was the background so so so you've got a liberal Presbyterian who converts to Mormonism that always confused me. I'll be honest with you that always confused me. What does Mormonism? Have to offer to a liberal and What I didn't understand was the kind of Mormonism that he was converting to.

And when you look at his look at his book. He mentions a very interesting fellow. Very interesting fellow that we all know out here in Arizona who goes around and tries to meet with ministers to convince them.

His name is Darl Anderson to convince them that The Mormonism is not what people say that it is and Darl Anderson had been influential in his conversion and. So in light of that It started to make some sense.

As to what was what was going on because the position that dr. Keller presented in the debate. Was not what you would hear from the Mormon that you'd be talking to At the Easter pageant outside your front door and the Mormons that I talked to In Salt Lake City, that's not what you'd be hearing.

Instead you have a liberal Mormonism. Let's give you give it some examples. During the cross-examination. Well back up. I I thought the debate was supposed to be on justification. But when we got there it was on grace and works so so I I did a presentation on justification in essence and it didn't.

I don't think anyone realized there was that much of a difference and I get done with a 20-minute presentation on justification. Dr. Keller starts his off by saying well, I'd like to thank dr. White for pretty much presenting my position for me and If you know Mormonism.

And if you ever listened for example to some of the programs that I've done on the radio in Salt Lake City before you know. That that's not exactly what you expect to hear. After an opening presentation on justification, but he he basically said that's that's pretty much we believe, you know.

It's the Atonement Central grace, you know all the rest of stuff and he did then go on to make a few changes. Well, yeah, you can fall from grace and a few things like that, but it was not What you expect to hear?

From the missionaries for example now realize this one is standing room only there's there's the Room is packed out. There's there's people standing along the back wall because there's no place to sit.

So This place this one is much better attended and there's a number of LDS missionaries there and there's a number of ex-mormons there as well, and I'm watching these folks and I can tell that for the vast majority of them.

They had never Heard what he was saying before. The former Mormons is sitting there going no Stinkin way. That's not what I was taught. That's not what my bishop ever said. I've never heard this at all and Then you've got the Mormons sitting there going so This is what they're teaching at BYU now, huh?

Very interesting and so you could tell that there is there is a lot of befuddlement on both ends in regards to regards to that and so. Anyways some of the examples. It became incumbent upon me. To Differentiate the two sides.

I was gonna have to do the work at that point and so what I decided to do is I quoted from run I 1032 2nd Nephi 25 23 These are passages to talk about how if we you know we need to love God with our heart soul mind strength rid ourselves of all ungodliness then his grace is Is sufficient and all the rest of stuff and it's by grace we're saved after all we can do is 2nd Nephi 25 23 says and so I started bringing some of these issues up and He in his statement in fact in his opening statement had made a comment that from his perspective Joseph Smith had strengthened Romans 328 in the Joseph Smith translation and By saying by by faith alone or something along I don't think it's faith alone faith only.

I think it's what he had something along those lines. So since he had brought it up I brought up the change that Joseph Smith had made. Where he indicates in Romans chapter 4? That God does not justify the ungodly and So I asked him about that and I said doesn't this indicate a very different perspective.

For Joseph Smith and what you're presenting and his comment was fascinating. His comment was well, I I can think of six or seven colleagues of mine On on the faculty of Brigham Young University who really believe that the Joseph Smith translation is An inspired correction of the scriptures that the that God is actually having Joseph here correct The scriptures.

But that was said in the context of saying the rest of them don't believe that his perspective was the Joseph Smith translation is a divine commentary and he specifically made the assertion in the course of The the debate.

I am certain that Paul wrote exactly what you have in your text. Not what Joseph Smith has in a Joseph Smith translation, this is Joseph Smith inspired commentary and You could just see people in the audience airing out their tonsils at this point going you you really Wow I've never heard this before and then it it got patently clear that people were amazed when I Finally got hold of the LDS quad and the Book of Mormon Dr. Post-apocalyptic price and King James Version of Bible.

It's a big thick big thing that you know, you can barely carry and I read the definition of grace that was that is contained in the Bible Dictionary and It says that grace is is an assisting power that helps us do work.

So we would not be able to maintain otherwise. But but the grace is not sufficient without our our total efforts and hence it gives second Nephi 25 23 by grace We saved after all we can do etc. Etc. It gives a very unbiblical definition of grace and what's more a definition of grace very different than what Dr. Keller was giving and without without any hesitation without batting an eye without any embarrassment.

Dr. Keller just just smiles and he says well I know who wrote those and as you pointed out he says it's not scripture and I simply reject that. Well, I know who wrote it, too Bruce R. McConkie wrote that section.

I'm pretty certain and Bruce R. McConkie is the Apostle that modern Mormons love to hate and to dismiss and Yet here you have a definition of grace. Let's think about this a definition of grace written by an alleged Apostle.

Published in.

The LDS version of the scriptures Under the authority of the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints. And yet I asked him I specifically asked him would it not be fair for me as an outsider?

To read this source that comes from the general authorities. It's published in the scriptures of the LDS Church under the authority of the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints.

Would it not be fair of me to view this as being the normative understanding and he said no it would not and He rejected that definition of grace. That's what's going on at BYU and that raises a lot of questions for a lot of folks.

It also demonstrates that there's a wide variety of opinions at BYU and the conservative LDS scholars who are still defending such things as Exaltation to godhood and so on so forth in the full sense of the Joseph Smith meaning obviously finds someone like dr. Keller and his comments to be Disturbing at the very least.

It was a very very interesting and I think in the long run a lot of people hearing that are gonna go. Wow, that's that's really something else. Well, we need to take our first break coming up here at the bottom of the hour.

If you have some questions or comments about our trip up there, I'm gonna be talking about some new books coming out by the way. Those will be coming up in the next half hour. Eight six six eight five four 67 63 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63.

Let's see how much Warren can do at one time 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63. We'll be right back. What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult. Secularism false prophecy scenarios.

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom.

James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply. It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style of both scholars and layman can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages Of scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen, but free by James White. You'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a men org.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with us this coming Lord's Day.

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Joseph Smith the theological implication. And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White. Filling you in on events from last weekend when we were not here. Because we were in Salt Lake City, Utah on Friday night.

We had debate with dr. Roger Keller. It went really well. I mean, I think dr. Keller would do it again and I think the people there thought it went really well. They certainly saw something they they rarely see up there and It certainly introduced a lot of folks to the the new Mormonism of Brigham Young University anyways and So it went really well.

We hope to have tapes fairly soon. We still have the tapes from six weeks ago.

But.

That's neither here nor there. I'm not gonna say anything more about that because you know, some people try real hard. Anyways, we will have it available and I think you'll all find it to be most interesting to listen into that.

So the next morning the three of us get up rich rich Pierce Larry Vondra and myself and We head for the general conference. I was a little concerned to be honest with you I think I had reason to be concerned about the possibility of some security issues.

I mean it is It is the way it is in the United States right now and and I was concerned that Some cops would come up to us in essence and tell us we need to hand out our literature, you know 14 miles away or something like that.

And there were there were more cops there than normal. There were more security than normal, but not that many more it really. You could not tell From that anyways that we are living in post September 11th America, which I think is a an accurate way of describing it.

But there still were some really weird people up there. Oh. It was strange we we came walking across There used to be a Road that went across what would be called East. It was I think it was Main Street, yeah, it was Main Street, it would be at the east side of the Temple Square and It's been closed off it's been turned into a park we call it the no free speech park because somehow the church managed to Obtain a road a street close it off turn into Plaza and you can't distribute literature there so it's the no free speech park and So we walked through there to the to the corner of North Temple and Main and From there we could look around and we could see the spot.

We normally stand on which is directly across from the North Gate and we can see signs everywhere. So we automatically know oh This is going to be fun. But as we walk toward the spot, we normally pass out literature.

What do our wondering eyes see?

But.

Two different well one two three four different groups. Well three when we first got there There's almost always a group there of fundamentalist Mormons wearing well the one guy wears camouflage pants and They're protesting abortion.

I don't know why they're doing this. I mean Mormons are generally not You know They're generally not in favor of abortion but these are excommunicated Mormons polygamists and they stay they stand there with their signs and They their signs have aborted fetuses on them and they look really strange and They're always there and we just we don't really talk to them anymore.

We had talked to them years and years and years years ago. But they're there. Then you've got Two other groups no, no one one group Wasn't that bad. I had some problems with him. There was a whole group of King James only Baptist there.

There's about one two three four or five of them and their signs Were humongaloid, I mean they were just They were twice the size. They would be that's it. They're about 12 feet tall I mean you could whack somebody over the head one of these things and just put them out cold.

They were just massive one of them had a King James Bible Stomping on people and then they're being cast into hell and all this other Wonderful fun stuff and one of those guys even told me at one point.

He said hey Hey, I I don't preach love. People need to know they're sinners. Just like oh, so so half a message is is better than Anyways, so they were there and the only problem I had with them I had a little you know, I had some discussions with them and as soon as they found out I wrote the King James only controversy.

They really weren't interested in continuing those conversations, but The thing that bothered me about them was there was a Period of time where this little Mormon girl tried to come up and talk to him and this one guy Just started Mocking her in front of everybody and it was it was a time when big crowds were coming by and so there'd be people who Were standing there large groups of people who'd be standing there and this guy just oh his attitude Oh, it's horrible.

Not only was he mocking this little girl, but then Little girl, I would say 16 maybe something like that, but then when she left as well she should have He'd stand there and he'd say I would like to introduce you to this it's a Bible I know it's a rare commodity here in Salt Lake City because you folks don't read it or believe it.

But this is a Bible and you be before you go into that building I want you to hear what this Bible says because you folks don't read the Bible or know anything about the Bible and I would like to ask anyone of you Mormons to come over here and show me where this Bible says that so you can become a god with your own planet and he's just he's just going on and on on and I'm I'm just staying there.

Just getting a headache and and When we went to lunch, it was so bad That I had decided that when I came back from lunch I was gonna walk up to that guy and I was gonna tell him I am NOT a Mormon. However, I Am so angry about the way you have been treating people today.

I'm gonna roleplay one and I'm gonna rip your lips off. I Didn't need to as soon as we got back from lunch lo and behold a Fellow that I've talked to.

Forever.

I've talked to this guy over and over again. I. There he is. He's got them both and They are dumbfounded here. This guy's sharp. He's sharp. And the only time the only reason he's ever gotten angry with me.

Is.

Because of the fact that I can throw the Greek and Hebrew at him and he likes to throw Greek and Hebrew out. But he doesn't know it. So I'm always able to catch him on stuff. And so that's where we've had success with in the past.

Well, these guys they're King James only Greek and Hebrew who needs that and I stood close enough to listen and This Mormon toasted these two guys just toasted them and.