SLC : Debate with Richard Hopkins of BYU and Interference from Proteste

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October 13, 2001

Dr. White describes his debate with Richard Hopkins, who had converted from liberal Protestantism to a liberal stream of Mormonism and now teaches at BYU. The debate was supposed to be on Justification, but Hopkin’s liberal view required White to also describe the typical LDS view of works and “grace”. Also, normally, the team would also pass out flyers outside of the conference, but Dr. White explains the spectrum of strange groups that now protest in a rather distracting way.

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00:00: Good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White and we are live Here on the internet and I hope everyone is able to tune in today
00:10: We are we're doing something new today. Yes, indeed. We have actually allowed
00:16: Rich Pierce out of his dungeon he he has been allowed out of the the
00:24: Alpha Omega Ministries dungeon and He and his family have actually gone on vacation they're on their way back but what that means is that we are we do be winging it and The captain's chair has been filled by lieutenant
00:40: Sulu Lieutenant Sulu is in charge of the ship today. Warren Smith is is
00:47: Sitting there going. Okay. He says it's way too loud in his headphones. What do I do about that?
00:52: Oh, his ears are bleeding Oh, that's not a good thing. And so we have him very worried over there that That's something desperate is going to happen.
01:01: So when folks start calling him Please be kind to Warren because Warren is is Warren is doing his best windows impersonation today he is multitasking and So we need to be nice nice to Warren because you know what happens when you're not nice to windows you get the blue screen of death and if I just hear the door close and silence on the other side
01:26: And then we'll know that Warren also just sort of walked away as well So that's sort of how it might might work and that really would not be a good thing
01:33: So actually we should just have everybody call in all at once and just see how much she can actually handle
01:38: I did that to a Windows system once you know, how many programs can you actually throw at a
01:44: Meta program at a computer before it just you know ups and dies and maybe that's what we can do If everyone starts calling in at 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63 all at the same time and then he'll be sitting there going
01:55: Yeah, so anyways Everybody's hearing us. And in fact, we're doing better than we've done for weeks
02:02: When you think about it, in fact, I could think of someone out there probably hoping That everything's going to just die all of a sudden because if we make it through this perfectly
02:12: I can I can guarantee there's be someone going Hmm well, you know, so on so forth anyways
02:20: No, there was no program last week. Those of you who have been griping and complaining and wondering There was no program last week because we couldn't do a program last week
02:30: I suppose we could have asked Warren to come in and Set up the stream and then come in here and do the program and talk and then when the calls came in Hold on a second run over to the next room and take the calls and do things like that but that probably wouldn't have been a really good idea either and We couldn't do it from Couldn't do it from up there in in Salt Lake City.
02:53: We don't have the ability to remote broadcast in that way I suppose if rich was here and I was up there then certainly we could do it
03:01: But we weren't able to do that. We were in Salt Lake City Last week we did something we hadn't done.
03:08: I don't know We were sitting in the car wondering about how long it had been it was somewhere around 94 95, maybe 96 somewhere along in the middle 90s we stopped we stopped driving to Salt Lake City, and we started flying and That's been nice because it's 654 miles to Salt Lake City.
03:30: That's depending on how fast you're driving anywhere from a 9 hour to a 12 hour drive and Also, how long you stop to eat and whether you just do drive -thrus and and how fast you fill up the gas tank and all
03:42: The rest that kind of stuff and of course at least since the middle 90s these speed limits went up and so that does cut it down just a little bit, but it's still a pretty long drive from Phoenix to To Salt Lake City and starting in 1984.
03:58: We drove that all the time twice a year that's before times a year we would drive up to Salt Lake City and And After a while it
04:09: Especially after you you you turn you go through Panguitch, Utah Actually, there's a couple really dry spots along the way
04:20: Once you get out of Flagstaff, and you're gone the Navajo reservation up to up toward page
04:27: You can you just can't look at a whole lot of red rocks I mean after a while, okay,
04:34: I've seen enough and they all look the same now, and it gets a little boring and There's always you could you could make the quick stop at that Metropolitan Mecca of tourism called the gap up there on the
04:47: On the reservation that would always be an enjoyable thing to do and the fact I stopped there one night
04:53: I was driving up. Why was it nighttime? I forget why it was but I was driving.
04:59: I was driving my 1970 74 VW Beetle it was a
05:06: Sunbug it was gold and I remember pulling into the gap around midnight and Sleeping for a couple hours there in the gap
05:20: I was all alone, and that was really dumb thing to do to drive up there all alone, but anyways I did it Well anyhow and then once you once you go up through Panguitch, Utah you go over on on this little 20
05:31: It's about 20 miles. That's 20 takes you over to I -15 and from I -15 up until about Provo.
05:38: It's just It's just one of those trips. Just it's it's really about as exciting as back in the
05:44: Navajo reservation And then you start getting into some city traffic and stuff, but anyways we hadn't done that in a long long time but in light of September 11th, and we were going to We were gonna.
05:55: You know we thought for a while We were gonna be videotaping the debate that was gonna take place
06:00: Friday night We decided not to do that I think we could have it wouldn't have any difference, but the point was when we take these flights frequently we do them standby and We carry on a bunch of stuff well right now.
06:12: That's not a good thing You know I mean we might still be standing in line if we had tried to do that so we decided to We decided to drive and So Rich Pierce and Larry Vondra and myself we left right after I got done teaching
06:27: High school classes Thursday morning Actually would have been a little bit afternoon. We got started.
06:32: I sat in the back and graded high school papers and turned in grades via the phone and in fact at one point
06:40: I Demonstrated that I'm a complete techno geek by getting into our chat room Via my cell phone on my laptop in the back of the car outside of Flagstaff now that was
06:51: I Was only there for about five minutes But it was enough to impress the other techno geeks in the chat room
06:57: That I am the king of techno geeks because nobody else had ever done that I did it first and everybody else is going well
07:03: I could have if I had wanted to but they didn't and so anyways and So we got up there on Thursday, and then
07:10: Friday evening Was the debate now this is somewhat new and in fact it's somewhat unusual because Mormons generally don't do debates.
07:23: I mean Van Hale did a debate with Walter Martin back in the 80s that yeah, but you just it's just not as normative as you have with With Roman Catholics or things like that.
07:40: It's just somewhat unusual and so Starting let's see when did we first do it?
07:47: I guess we've done it each time. No. I think we skipped one Starting a little while ago. I don't remember how long ago
07:52: We had a debate with a Roman Catholic in Salt Lake City the night before the conference
07:59: Which we've never even offered because it really wasn't much of a debate I mean my opponent was a former
08:04: Baptist who became a Roman Catholic. He's an RCIA instructor up there, and It was supposed to be on justification and in his opening statement.
08:12: He he said things like Well, you know we all believe the same thing now thanks to the
08:19: Lutheran Catholic Accord, and we all believe in justification by faith now and and He even said the
08:26: Catholics are now allowed to pray to st. Martin Luther Which you know
08:31: I'm sort of sitting there looking at this guy going man. This is really weird in fact the only only
08:36: Notable thing about that entire debate was that some King James only pastor guy tried to trap me afterwards and twisted my words and and Wrote an article and all the rest of stuff, and it was after that debate
08:48: Isn't it interesting a King James only pastor would have to come to a Roman Catholic debate to try to trip me up But anyways so that was the first debate we did then six months ago we arranged a debate and Jason Wallace and the
09:02: Orthodox Presbyterian Church up in Salt Lake City Which you need to pray for of course obviously up there since they are yeah
09:08: I I think they should be considered a foreign missions work actually I think anyone doing that kind of That kind of mission that kind of church work in Salt Lake City Should be considered being a foreign missionary, but anyways
09:25: Jason Wallace and the OPC are the folks up there who are Sponsoring these debates and Six months ago.
09:34: They contacted Jason Jason Jason's a nice guy, and he can get on the phone and he can be very nice, and I guess he's a whole lot nicer than me and sounds a lot nicer than me because He would call farms the
09:47: Foundation for Asian research and Mormon studies And they would say well talk to this person talk to that person and he'd slowly be handed down the chain until six months ago
09:56: We had debate with Richard Hopkins now mr. Hopkins at the time Was the head of horizon publishers and He's written two books one was called biblical
10:07: Mormonism the other one something about how Greek philosophy is corrupted the Christian view of God or something along those lines and I knew
10:14: I knew mr.. Hopkins. I had I had done his radio program about two or three years before that In fact one night.
10:21: I'd done a four -hour marathon on Salt Lake City radio on a Sunday evening where? we were on for two hours with Van Hale and And built its
10:31: Van Halen Bill Forrest at the program, but I had not met Bill Forrest until actually last week and We were on two hours
10:40: Van Halen two hours with with mr. Hopkins and Turned out to be a very interesting program, but anyways
10:47: I knew of him. I knew of his book I I really felt that his book demonstrate He had no concept of what
10:54: Christian theology actually is but Was unable to convince him of that and so we had a debate on the on the nature of man and the issue of free will and I don't know how many people were there a hundred and twenty hundred and forty.
11:10: Maybe I don't know Maybe less than that. I I'm not really really sure about that, but Anyways, we had the debate and it went pretty well
11:20: You know for our first run at it, and and I think it's pretty unusual in the
11:26: Salt Lake the Salt Lake Valley for there to be a Evangelical Mormon debate and So it went pretty well so after that debate then this next time
11:40: I get a call from Jason and he has arranged To have a debate with dr.
11:46: Roger Keller Now I was I'll admit going up there. I didn't think this was gonna work.
11:54: I Didn't think it was gonna work for a couple of various and sundry reasons, but I I had met
11:59: Roger Keller once he'd there's no Way, he would ever remember me Because I had met him when
12:06: I was in college and I don't look anything like I looked in college, and he looked pretty much the same to me anyways from what
12:15: I remember seeing and He had been out here in Arizona in fact
12:21: I I look so little like I did in college that last night was the beginning of my 20th high school reunion and Fellow that I knew from sixth grade on we had been best friends in in in Sixth grade and then through junior high school and all the rest of stuff walked up to him
12:41: And he had no idea who in the world Just I gave him all sorts of hints told him about trips
12:47: We had taken together up to Lake Powell and all this stuff is still
12:53: Had no idea when I finally told him he was like you've got to be kidding anyways that is neither here nor there
12:58: He wouldn't of course remember what I looked like, but I remembered his story. He had been a Presbyterian a
13:04: PC USA minister and Somehow I'm not sure how as a PC USA minister.
13:10: He had also Hmm Pastored as I recall in in a
13:16: United Methodist Church and anybody who Who knows Presbyterians and Methodists know they're not exactly on the same page theologically, but remember
13:24: Liberals are liberals, and he was a liberal PC USA minister so a liberal PC USA minister and a liberal
13:32: Liberal United Methodist what does matter you could all you know get together doesn't really matter
13:38: So I had remembered his conversion story, I'd remembered that even while he was a
13:43: Presbyterian pastor he was presenting a view of Mormonism that I knew was was not what
13:49: Mormons actually believe and and We had opposed him going around doing that kind of thing and then
13:55: I had heard that he had left Once he converted to Mormonism He had left the area and Was teaching at BYU, and I really hadn't heard much more about him since then until Jason called me and said well
14:09: We've arranged for a debate with Roger Keller. Well. I had his book reformed Christians and Mormon Christians, let's talk and I had never really sat down done much with it.
14:19: I had sort of skimmed through it went Oh, this is interesting, but so I grabbed that took it with me on the way up to a
14:25: Salt Lake City of course and In the process of reading it was was fascinated what
14:32: I was seeing in fact even at one point Oh I'm sorry.
14:40: I'm digging a spear out of my back that was thrown by someone in the chat room right now who is complaining that What I sound like I'm doing is like when his wife sits down to talk about a day of shopping
14:53: Well, thank you very very much if if I if I didn't have to maintain
15:01: Concentration what I was saying my my little mouse would find a way to go find my pop -ups and send a certain person
15:08: Packing through cyberspace right now for that particular comment, so anyways Thank you, so so much for your for your kind comments
15:20: Anyways In looking through the book I found it fascinating that when at one point some some
15:30: Charts are provided for what salvation is all about and He even marked the viewpoint that was his at the time as Neo -orthodox
15:42: He's got the Mormon. He's got the standard evangelical, and he's got the neo -orthodox and I'm like That's interesting and so I start start reading through the text this guy as a as a as a
15:57: Presbyterian Was a universalist he was in fact during the course of the
16:05: Debate You've got to try to picture this those of you who weren't there. You've got to try to picture this we Next time around we need to change this because it's a little bit hokey, but we don't have a podium we have basically a six -foot table and The two debaters sit on opposite ends.
16:22: That's well You sit at the opposite table and then Jason Wallace sits in the middle, and he is sort of the
16:31: He's sort of the the stoic Moderator type guy he just sits there and announces
16:36: What's next and may and and keep things going and keeps the time, but he he stays out of it
16:43: Well at one point during the cross -examination I was bringing out some of these issues about where he was coming from And he he made the comment yes,
16:53: I would take the position of Karl Barth the happy Calvinist and as soon as he said
16:58: Karl Barth the happy Calvinist Jason just he couldn't help it.
17:04: He just he busted up I mean he was trying to be you know absolutely stoic and it's just he just busted up he couldn't he couldn't couldn't handle it the happy Calvinist and Got a good chuckle out of the audience on that one later on though in the same interaction
17:19: Bart's name came up again, and and I forget the exact context, but at some point He he
17:25: I had gotten some laughter going for something I had said and and he made some comment along the lines of well
17:31: Yeah, Bart's taken a lot of heat for that And I said yeah literally and the whole place just just broke up laughing hysterically at that particular point
17:39: So it's it was it was a good interchange at that point, but anyways This dr.
17:46: Keller went as a Presbyterian was a very liberal Presbyterian and Not only that but he
17:58: When he would read the Westminster standards he he brought with him the
18:04: Westminster standards He admitted that as a Presbyterian As As a
18:14: Presbyterian He had found the the teaching of The Westminster Confession regarding God and his sovereign decree and the issue of reprobation to be
18:32: Monstrous he as a Presbyterian he had viewed that as monstrous as just being horrible.
18:39: He had never accepted that So obviously he was never truly a Presbyterian at least not in the historical sense
18:46: There's lots of modern PC USA Presbyterians though that would agree with him.
18:52: They they don't believe believe that that's what is really taught there anyways, so Anyhow, so that was the background so so so you've got a liberal
19:01: Presbyterian who converts to Mormonism that always confused me. I'll be honest with you that always confused me
19:07: What does Mormonism? Have to offer to a liberal and What I didn't understand was the kind of Mormonism that he was converting to And when you look at his look at his book
19:25: He mentions a very interesting fellow Very interesting fellow that we all know out here in Arizona who goes around and tries to meet with ministers to convince them
19:35: His name is Darrell Anderson to convince them that The Mormonism is not what people say that it is and Darrell Anderson had been influential in his conversion and So in light of that It started to make some sense
19:53: As to what was what was going on because the position that dr.
19:59: Keller presented in the debate Was not what you would hear from the
20:04: Mormon that you'd be talking to At the Easter pageant outside your front door and the
20:11: Mormons that I talked to In Salt Lake City, that's not what you'd be hearing
20:18: Instead you have a liberal Mormonism Give it give it some examples
20:26: During the cross -examination. Well back up. I I thought the debate was supposed to be on justification
20:33: But when we got there it was on grace and works so so I I did a presentation on justification in essence and it didn't
20:40: I don't think anyone realized there was that much of a difference and I get done with a 20 -minute presentation and justification
20:48: Dr. Keller starts his off by saying well, I'd like to thank dr. White for pretty much presenting my position for me and if you know
20:57: Mormonism and if you ever listened for example to some of the programs that I've done on the radio in Salt Lake City before you
21:03: Know that that's not exactly what you expect to hear After an opening presentation on justification, but he he basically said that's that's pretty much we believe, you know
21:12: It's the atonement central grace, you know all the rest of stuff and he did then go on to make a few changes
21:19: Well, yeah, you can fall from grace and a few things like that, but it was not What you expect to hear?
21:27: From the missionaries for example now realize this one is standing room only
21:33: There's there's the the room is packed out. There's there's people standing along the back wall because there's no place to sit.
21:39: So This place this one is much better attended and there's a number of LDS missionaries there and there's a number of ex -mormons there as well, and I'm watching these folks and I can tell that for the vast majority of them
21:56: They had never Heard what he was saying before The former
22:01: Mormons are sitting there going no stinking way That's not what I was taught.
22:06: That's not what my bishop ever said. I've never heard this at all and Then you've got the
22:14: Mormons sitting there going so This is what they're teaching at BYU.
22:20: Now, huh? Hmm very interesting and so you could tell that there is there is a lot of Be fuddle mint on Both ends in regards to regards to that and so Anyways some of the examples
22:41: It became incumbent upon me To differentiate the two sides
22:48: I was gonna have to do the work at that point And so what
22:55: I decided to do is I quoted from when I 1032 second
23:01: Nephi 25 23 These are passages to talk about how we you know we need to love
23:06: God with our heart soul mind strength rid ourselves of all ungodliness then his grace is Is sufficient and all the rest of stuff and it's by grace we're saved after all we can do is a second
23:16: Nephi 25 23 says and so I started bringing some of these issues up and He in his statement in fact in his opening statement had made a comment that from his perspective
23:27: Joseph Smith had strengthened Romans 328 in the Joseph Smith translation and By saying by by faith alone or something along I don't think it's faith alone faith only
23:40: I think it's what he had something along those lines So since he had brought it up, I brought up the change that Joseph Smith had made where he indicates in Romans chapter 4
23:51: That God does not justify the ungodly and So I asked him about that and I said doesn't this indicate a you know, very different perspective
24:03: For Joseph Smith and what you're presenting and his comment was fascinating His comment was well,
24:10: I I can think of six or seven colleagues of mine On On the faculty of Brigham Young University who really believe that the
24:25: Joseph Smith translation Is an inspired correction of the scriptures that the that God is actually having
24:33: Joseph here correct the scriptures But that was said in the context of saying the rest of them don't believe that His perspective was the
24:43: Joseph Smith translation is a divine Commentary and he specifically made the assertion in the course of The the debate
24:54: I am certain that Paul wrote exactly what you have in your text
25:00: Not what Joseph Smith has in a Joseph Smith translation. This is Joseph Smith inspired commentary and You could just see people in the audience airing out their tonsils at this point going you
25:14: Really Wow, I've never heard this before and then it it got patently clear that people were amazed when
25:22: I Finally got hold of the LDS quad and the Book of Mormon. Dr.
25:27: Coates proprietor price and King James Version of Bible. It's a big thick big thing that you know, you can barely carry and I read the definition of grace
25:40: And that was that is contained in the Bible Dictionary and It says that grace is is an assisting power that helps us do work
25:48: So we would not be able to maintain otherwise But but the grace is not sufficient without our our total efforts and hence it gives second
25:56: Nephi 25 23 by grace we saved after all we can do etc. Etc. It gives a very unbiblical
26:03: Definition of grace and what's more a definition of grace very different than what
26:10: Dr. Keller was giving and Without without any hesitation without batting an eye without any embarrassment
26:18: Dr. Keller just just smiles and he says well I know who wrote those and as you pointed out he says it's not scripture and I simply reject that Well, I know who wrote it, too
26:35: I Bruce R. McConkie wrote that section. I'm pretty certain and Bruce R.
26:43: McConkie is the Apostle that modern Mormons love to hate and and to dismiss and Yet here you have a definition of grace.
26:53: Let's think about this a definition of grace written by an alleged Apostle published in the
27:02: LDS version of the scriptures Under the authority of the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day
27:07: Saints and yet I asked him I specifically asked him would it not be fair for me as an outsider?
27:14: To read this source that comes from the General Authorities It's published in the scriptures of the
27:21: LDS Church under the authority of the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints would it not be fair of me to view this as being the normative understanding and he said no it would not and He rejected that definition of grace, that's what's going on at BYU and that raises a lot of questions for a lot of folks
27:41: It also demonstrates that there's a wide variety of opinions at BYU and the the conservative
27:48: LDS scholars who are still defending such things as Exaltation to godhood and so on so forth
27:58: In the full sense of the Joseph Smith meaning obviously find someone like dr.
28:03: Keller and his comments to be disturbing at the very least It was a very very interesting and I think in the long run a lot of people hearing that are gonna go
28:14: Wow, that's that's really something else Well, we need to take our first break coming up here at the bottom of the hour
28:20: If you have some questions or comments about our trip up there I'm gonna be talking about some new books coming out by the way
28:27: Those will be coming up in the next half hour eight six six eight five four 67 63 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63
28:35: Let's see how much Warren can do at one time 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63.
28:42: We'll be right back What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the
28:47: Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios
28:53: No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent
29:03: Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr.
29:09: Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the
29:15: Protestant Reformation was founded indeed It is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style of both scholars and layman can appreciate
29:23: James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the
29:39: Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen, but free by James White You'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a men org
29:49: The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church
30:01: The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with us this coming
30:07: Lord's Day Our morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And our worship service is at 1045
30:14: Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and Wednesday prayer meeting is at 7
30:20: We are located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 26 grace or look us up on the web at www .prbc
30:33: .org More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together
30:40: They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the
30:52: Roman Catholic Church appealing This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided
31:02: Protestants and Catholics Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? by going to our website
31:16: Joseph Smith the theological implication and welcome back to the dividing line My name is
31:21: James White filling you in on events from last weekend when we were not here
31:26: Because we were in Salt Lake City, Utah on Friday night. We had debate with dr. Roger Keller.
31:31: It went really well I mean, I think dr. Keller would do it again and I think the people there thought it went really well.
31:39: They certainly saw something they they rarely see up there and It certainly introduced a lot of folks to the the new
31:47: Mormonism of Brigham Young University anyways and So it went really well, we hope to have tapes fairly soon
31:57: We still have the tapes from six weeks ago but That's neither here nor there
32:06: I'm not gonna say anything more about that because you know, some people try real hard Anyways, we will have it available and I think you'll all find it to be most interesting to listen into that So the next morning
32:18: The three of us get up rich rich Pierce Larry Vondra and myself and We head for the general conference.
32:27: I was a little concerned to be honest with you I think I had reason to be concerned about the possibility of some security issues
32:36: I mean it is It is the way it is in the United States right now and and I was concerned that Some cops would come up to us in essence and tell us we need to hand out our literature, you know 14 miles away or something like that And there were there were more cops there than normal.
32:55: There were more security than normal, but not that many more It really you could not tell
33:02: From that anyways that we are living in post September 11th
33:08: America, which I think is a an accurate way of describing it But there still were some really weird people up there.
33:18: Oh It was strange we we came walking across There used to be a
33:29: Road that went across what would be called East It was I think it was Main Street, yeah, it was
33:34: Main Street, it would be at the east side of the Temple Square and It's been closed off it's been turned into a park we call it the no free speech park because somehow the church managed to Obtain a road a street close it off turn into Plaza and you can't distribute literature there so it's the no free speech park and So we walked through there to the to the corner of North Temple and Maine and From there we could look around and we could see the spot
34:11: We normally stand on which is directly across from the North Gate and we can see signs everywhere.
34:16: So we automatically know. Oh This is going to be fun But as we walk toward the spot, we normally pass out literature.
34:24: What do our wondering eyes see? But two different well one two three four different groups, well three when we first got there
34:37: There's almost always a group there of fundamentalist Mormons wearing well, the one guy wears camouflage pants and They're protesting abortion.
34:47: I don't know why they're doing this. I mean Mormons are generally not You know
34:55: They're generally not in favor of abortion But these are excommunicated Mormons polygamists and they stay they stand there with their signs and They their signs have aborted fetuses on them and they look really strange and They're always there and we just we don't really talk to them anymore
35:21: We had talked to them years and years and years years ago, but they're there Then you've got
35:32: Two other groups no, no one one group Wasn't that bad
35:39: I had some problems with them. There was a whole group of King James only Baptists there.
35:44: There's about one two three four or five of them and their signs were
35:51: Humongoloid, I mean they were just The they were twice the size
35:57: They would be I'd say they're about 12 feet tall I mean you could whack somebody over the head one of these things and just put them out cold.
36:04: They were just massive One of them had a King James Bible stomping on people and then they're being cast into hell and all this other
36:13: Wonderful fun stuff and one of those guys even told me at one point. He said hey Hey, I I don't preach love
36:21: People need to know they're sinners Just like oh, so so half a message is is better than Anyways, so they were there and the only problem
36:31: I had with them I had a little you know, I had some discussions with them and as soon as they found out I wrote the
36:36: King James only controversy. They really weren't interested in continuing those conversations, but The thing that bothered me about them was there was a period of time where this little
36:47: Mormon girl tried to come up and talk to him and This one guy Just started
36:53: Mocking her in front of everybody and it was it was a time when big crowds were coming by and so there'd be people who?
37:00: Were standing there large groups of people who'd be standing there and this guy just oh his attitude
37:07: Oh, it's horrible. Not only was he mocking this little girl, but then Little girl,
37:13: I would say 16 maybe something like that. But then when she left as Well, she should have
37:21: He'd stand there and he'd say I would like to introduce you to this it's a
37:26: Bible I know it's a rare commodity here in Salt Lake City because you folks don't read it or believe it
37:31: But this is a Bible and you be before you go into that building I want you to hear what this Bible says because you folks don't read the
37:38: Bible or know anything about the Bible and I would like to ask any one of you Mormons to come over here and show me where this
37:46: Bible says that so you can become a God with your own planet and he's just he's just going on and on on and I'm I'm just staying there.
37:55: Just getting a headache and and When we went to lunch, it was so bad That I had decided that when
38:03: I came back from lunch I was gonna walk up to that guy and I was gonna tell him I am NOT a Mormon.
38:08: However, I Am so angry about the way you have been treating people today.
38:13: I'm gonna roleplay one and I'm gonna rip your lips off. I Didn't need to as soon as we got back from lunch lo and behold a
38:25: Fellow that I've talked to forever I've talked to this guy over and over again.
38:34: I There he is He's got them both and they are dumbfounded here.
38:41: This guy's sharp He's sharp and the only time the only reason he's ever gotten angry with me is
38:49: Because of the fact that I can throw the Greek and Hebrew at him and he likes to throw
38:54: Greek and Hebrew out But he doesn't know it. So I'm always able to catch him on stuff And so that's where we've had success with in the past well, these guys they're
39:02: King James only Greek and Hebrew who needs that and I stood close enough to listen and This Mormon toasted these two guys
39:10: Just toasted them and I Never stuck my the only time
39:15: I said anything It was a pretty quiet time and the Mormon had said well, you know
39:21: We do have the passage in Romans 10 where where we are joined heirs with Christ and I started that's Romans 8
39:26: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right and so Anyways he
39:36: He went forward from they wouldn't he he kept them going for about two hours
39:41: I would say and I just thought that was just wonderful. Anyways, that's That's the one group that was there and then he had the fundamentals
39:49: Mormons, but that wasn't the most interesting group The most interesting group that you could see from far far away
40:05: Was Fred Phelps Yeah, Fred Phelps, you know Fred Phelps He has the website
40:14: He's the one who goes around protesting homosexuals. He's the one he's the hate monger against homosexuals and He He was there with his people
40:29: It was Disgusting I'm gonna tell you It was disgusting try to picture this we're gonna we we took pictures and we'll we'll do something with the pictures, but There's how many were there
40:50: Maybe a dozen I'd say they have these brightly colored signs
40:57: Neon colored orange yellow green. Okay, the kind that don't look very pretty but you can see them from a long ways off I'm not gonna
41:06: I'm not gonna even repeat some of the things that were on these signs One guy's holding a sign with a big old arrow says this way to hell pointed into the
41:15: Mormon Church and that was somewhat witty but most of them Just unbelievable and some of these are being held by little kids
41:25: Like one of the signs is Person dies of AIDS God laughs and there's these little kids, you know, eight nine ten years old
41:40: That are holding these signs and I'm sitting here reading some of these things and it's just they're they're holding an up that upside -down flag
41:52: They some of their signs say God hates America and They're stand outside here.
41:59: And the first thing I ask The first thing I ask is why are they here? And one of the
42:06: Mormon security guys, they know who we are. They're not concerned about us. They know we're not cause a problems says well
42:14: Soul force was supposed to be here now soul force is the group headed up by Mel white and Mel white is the former speechwriter for Ronald Reagan and Jerry Falwell and all these folks who who came out came out of the closet and and is a homosexual and He wrote a book
42:37: I'm sitting here looking for it stranger the gate stranger the gate that's right and on Being gay and Christian in America I think is the subtitle or something like that and they were supposed to be there soul force supposed to be there
42:50: To put pressure on the Mormon leadership to accept homosexuals into the leadership of the
42:55: Mormon Church and stuff like that Yeah, like that's gonna happen anytime soon so since Phelps and his people found found out about this.
43:04: They were there to protest against them well soul force never showed somebody showed up a couple lesbians and one homosexual showed up with a with the rainbow flag and Stood far away, and I never heard him say a word they didn't have any signs or anything
43:25: They just sort of stood there, but soul force didn't show up didn't stop Phelps and the boys. They were gonna protest anyways
43:33: So I went over to Reverend Phelps. That's what he calls himself They're out of Topeka, Kansas if you're familiar with him well the reasons
43:41: I did is Once we once rich gets back, and he can dig himself out from underneath the mountains waiting for him we will be making the
43:54: Debate available In regards to homosexuality with Barry Lynn and mr.
44:00: Lynn asked me during the cross -examination. Have you ever condemned? Fred Phelps, and I said
44:05: I've never met Fred Phelps well now. I've got my chance Here's my chance to meet Fred Phelps and to talk to him.
44:11: I'm looking at these signs and so I go over to him and And I told him I Gave him some background.
44:20: I said, I'm a reformed elder and reformed Baptist Church, and that looked That looked
44:28: The look he gave me was strange the look he gave me was Show up in Salt Lake City wanted to anyways, and I told her about the debate with with Barry Lynn and Then I told him about the book the same -sex controversy coming out with the
44:58: Bethany house publishers So he was aware of the fact that I'm not a Mormon. I'm a
45:04: Baptist. I'm opposed to Homosexuality and so on so forth and So he has
45:17: He has the material right there After introducing myself here's here's all
45:23: I said, this is what I'm standing right in front of him. He's I Don't know he's around 70 ish maybe in the 60s.
45:37: I'm not really sure about my height certainly not my weight and So I look at him and I say now
45:49: Mr. Phelps Looking at your signs here we are told in Scripture that we are to speak the truth in love and As soon as I said the word love he goes you're a
46:06: God hater, and you're going to hell and two of his people Descend on me and just start screaming at me.
46:15: I Mean they are immediately between me and him. It's it's I think it may have been a signal I think
46:23: Assigning me to the flames of perdition immediately for daring to quote a scripture passage I mean the scripture does say we're to speak the truth in love.
46:31: That's that's biblical But as soon as I quoted that Boom there there on top of me like I Just couldn't believe it.
46:43: I mean these people Just ooze
46:49: Hatred they wouldn't know Christian love if it walked up and smacked him in the face I mean which
46:55: Christian love probably wouldn't do anyways, but You get the point. They're just absolutely
47:02: So far out there. It's a cult. I mean Fred Phelps and his his bunch as someone just described them sorry bunch
47:13: Are It's a cult it is absolutely a Whacked out cult.
47:20: There's no two ways about it I mean this guy is the worst thing that has happened to the attempt to actually speak the truth about homosexuality is as anything could be and They would not stick around during the quiet times they'd get in these pretty nice cars a lot nicer and I got and Then they come back when the rush was on later on and every time
47:41: Phelps would come back He'd have a different football jersey on It was really weird
47:49: So they were there and that of course complicated things You couldn't get a track passed out for nothing as long as those people are standing there doing their screaming
47:58: These ladies would stand on top of the homosexual flag while holding the American flag upside down and sing and in fact
48:07: We're sitting here watching these folks getting in people's faces yelling and screaming at him and as we're leaving to go to lunch
48:14: I think it's about 130. They're still there And as we're walking away from them
48:21: We hear that the ladies are singing wonderful grace of Jesus And we're sitting here
48:33: They're not talking about grace to anybody what It was
48:41: Huh It made for an interesting trip to Salt Lake City.
48:46: There is no two ways about it. It was something else so Fred Phelps and the boys and girls there at at Salt Lake City made for a fascinating We took advantage of it what you know we do
49:09: We'd see people will stand there looking at these signs one of them was graphic one of them literally using stick figures was graphically showing
49:16: Sodomy okay, that's kind of the stuff. That's there if you go on their website, and you can figure out where it is
49:23: You can see this picture. It's it's in some I'd looked at some of the Pictures they have of their protesting on the site, and you can see one of these pictures they had and And People just stand there
49:38: You know not very close to them, but they'll stand there. You know 10 15 feet away just in amazement and I'd move around and I'd come stand next to people go can you believe it and they look at me like No, I can't what and we start talking and I'd immediately be able to differentiate myself from them and Then say you know we've been coming up here for this is my 33rd general conference and We're trying to share the gospel folks and these people come along and it gave us an opportunity to to witnesses and folks so we you know what's the old saying if Somebody hands you lemons make lemonade or something along those lines so What's it was quite the fascinating fascinating experience, so then we we drove back the next day
50:29: That was another wonderful long 654 mile trip And of course that was right as the
50:35: United States launched military operations over in Afghanistan And so we're sitting here trying to find radio stations in southern,
50:41: Utah. There's a joke for you there's That's Not much there not much between pang which and and page
50:56: Just wide Open spaces not much in the way of civilization. I can guarantee you that so anyways that was why we were not on the air
51:08: Last week so that's that's our our report on the subject of That let me just mention something really quickly.
51:16: We've got two callers and it's eight six six eight five four six seven sixty -three and Just want to make sure everyone is aware of the fact that we right now are
51:27: Promoting Something I've mentioned on the dividing line before on our main page.
51:32: We have the Roman Catholic Response pack I think is what I called it. I'm not sure
51:39: The books by Bill Webster and David King are finally available They are finally
51:44: I'm sitting here looking at them right now the three volume 1 ,100 page work
51:50: Holy Scripture It is a defense of sola scriptura the first volume is on the biblical defense of sola scriptura the second volume is on the historical defense of sola scriptura including the canon of scripture and The third volume is a just a entire
52:10: Entire discussion of Well not a discussion it's it's citations from early church sources on the sufficiency of scripture so on and so forth
52:21: These are available On our website 5750 for the it's $65 retail.
52:27: We have them for $57 for 50 cents. However, there's another book Eric Svensson's book who is my mother from Calvary Press has just come out
52:36: It is an extensive biblical discussion of the role of Mary in the New Testament 300 and reach up here 334 pages in length and I think you will very much enjoy this work
52:53: And so what we've decided to do is put these three works, which is total of five volumes over 18
53:00: I think it's eighteen hundred and forty four pages all of these available in one offer on our website and you can get the three volumes from Bill Webster and David King the
53:14: New volume from Eric Svensson my work on justification by faith the 400 page hardback from Bethany house publishers and You can get them all for 8990
53:26: I believe about $90 Yes shipping is above that but I dare you to go find it anyplace else for that amount of Money you're not gonna be able to do it.
53:38: That's a incredibly good price 1800 plus pages of brand new materials on the subject
53:47: Now my book on justification is just on justification by grace through faith It's not specifically in regards to Roman Catholicism But obviously if you've ever dealt with Rome, you know
53:56: That's a vital vital issue. And so these are available on our main page at a omen org.
54:03: That's an excellent opportunity if you already have for example my justification book
54:10: Honestly, if you put the 5750 together with what we charge for the Svensson book you're almost getting my book for free
54:18: So if you already have my book get another one and give it to your pastor or get the whole thing for your pastor
54:24: I honestly think The people who listen to this webcast especially are the people who know the importance of being prepared apologetically
54:38: Therefore you Should I think be the very people who in thinking toward The holidays for example, or even if it wasn't regards the holidays
54:52: Put This that put these books in the hands of your pastor do something for the elders of your church
55:01: I know most elders spend lots of money on books anyways but Give them this material make sure that they have this material at their disposal
55:12: These aren't the kinds of books that are going to be sitting in the front windows of Christian bookstores around The United States that's we recognize that that's just you know, these ain't the prayer of Jabez We these aren't books that are going to be telling you that you know through three easy steps
55:33: You can lose all your weight grow grow your teeth in straight get rid of the gray in your hair and all the rest that stuff
55:41: These that's that's what sells these days. We're well aware of that But for that remnant out there that's still concerned about biblical truth then these books are something you simply have to get for your pastors and Have to make it available to them.
55:56: So they'll have that information available to them Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three we're go ahead and take our break and then bring our callers online and Talk to you as well.
56:08: Eight six six eight five four six seven six three is the phone number here on the dividing line and We'll be taking a number of different questions today.
56:17: We've got a question about Islam. We've got a question about baptismal regeneration and Whatever questions you will be coming up with at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three but before we get to that we'll be taking our break and Coming back with the last half hour
56:35: Please don't be one of those folks that sort of you know sits there and waits until the very
56:40: You know calls in with five minutes left Then we don't have time to do anything If you want to ask a question have any comments on our trip up to Salt Lake City any comments on?
56:51: Anything else that's going along anything else I've mentioned the books if you'd like to know some more about what the new books cover and How you might be able to use them go ahead and give us a call eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three
57:04: We'll be right back and welcome back to the dividing line.
57:38: My name is James White and that was That was my break So we had one technical
57:45: Difficulty today not not too bad for for our first shot at this without maestro rich at the at the controls, so let's go ahead and go to our callers and Let's see if we can start off with Mike in Seattle Mike you there you're right here
58:05: James. Thanks for taking my call. How you doing good listen I was listening to your internet show on archive here about a week or so ago, and you had talked about building your library on Islam, and I Tend to I've used many of your suggestions in terms of building my library
58:23: I wonder what what things you've come up with to date that might be valuable resources for us
58:29: Well, there's a number of things that I'm Tracking down over time it is interesting that many of them are
58:38: Taking their time and getting to me actually Basically the first thing that that that you need to get hold of is a is the various translations of the
58:50: Quran and I'm looking around I didn't Here it is probably the best one certainly the easiest to get hold of is the one by Ahmed Ali a
59:01: Contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, but just like with anything else Multiple translations will be very useful because some of them are good and some of them are bad
59:10: This one has both the Arabic as well as the English in it and this one I actually picked up at a just a local of published by Princeton local
59:19: Barnes and Noble or something along those lines and I've got some leather bound copies coming and and I want to be able to do some comparison especially in regards to The fact that's
59:32: Arabic is not a language that I can read as yet I have ordered a basic grammar because I think there is a need to be able to engage some of the translational issues
59:42: And be able to at least read through some of the Arabic so I'm gonna be doing something along those lines I've also picked up a manual of hadith because the fact that so much of the differences between The various groups is due to their interpretation of the traditions that come allegedly from Muhammad and That that really is is one of the big issues that that I think it's going to be difficult to work through as an outsider
01:00:16: Is to figure out exactly how to work with this this type of information? That's that's gonna be that's gonna be a tough one to to work on then and a lot of these
01:00:27: I simply got from by the way from got online and started going through Amazon I started going through Barnes &
01:00:37: Noble. I started going through I was at Islam dot and let me bring up my Favorites Yeah, Islam calm has a store associated with it that you could actually bring up as well, and there's things there and So I've been picking up all sorts of things including an introduction to the study of the
01:01:03: Holy Quran by Malana Muhammad Ali a
01:01:08: Dictionary of Islam being an encyclopedia of the doctrines rights ceremonies and customs together with the technical and theological terms
01:01:15: By Thomas Patrick Hughes a lot of these are British because Britain of course has all sorts of Muslims in it in fact,
01:01:24: I think it's largest minority religious group in right we were over there this summer And yeah, yeah, they're all over the place.
01:01:30: Have you are you familiar with Bob Maury's ministry at all? Yeah, somewhat familiar with some of what he's done.
01:01:36: I've seen arguments about one of the big things that he argues in regards to Allah being an ancient moon
01:01:45: God or something along that line, but I've heard pros and cons from both perspectives there right now.
01:01:50: What I'm gathering is is primarily the And I've done this almost every group that I've studied
01:01:56: I start with their stuff first with a primary start with the primary sources, and then
01:02:02: I move from there I need to know the Quran. I need to know the hadith I need to know what their major groups how they interpret it, and then
01:02:10: I can start looking at it from there So I've got Ali's Translation of the
01:02:16: Quran Narudin's translation of the Quran and That's basically where I'm starting from there.
01:02:23: I do have the standard stuff from You know I've got Geisler's work on Islam and things like that, but as far as tracking that stuff down That then gives me a base from which to work to look for The references that they use and hopefully start getting a feel for you know.
01:02:41: It's like studying You don't study quote -unquote Christianity because the world looks at that and throws in The Mormons the
01:02:51: Jehovah's Witnesses and and and everything else and and there's all sorts different perspectives You gotta start getting a feel for What the solid stuff is out there and what the not so solid stuff is is because apologetically especially
01:03:03: There seems to be some some real major problems with the Muslim apologetic
01:03:10: But I've also been told that some Muslims who have debated Some leading evangelicals have simply cleaned their clocks now
01:03:17: I'm not sure if it was because those people weren't prepared or they just addressed the wrong subject or what it was
01:03:23: I don't know Yeah, and it wasn't even close
01:03:29: I mean is that in fact I was looking at your website is that debate available yeah, yeah, it's
01:03:36: Don't know that I can I can I'm on the same connection that we're live streaming with so I hope
01:03:43: I don't blow us off the air by utilizing it but Where would that be it might be under general apologetics
01:03:54: It's with Hamza Abdul Malik, so if you can just do a search on the site for Malik it should bring it up and in fact
01:04:03: I showed that to my high school classes over the past couple of weeks and let them Determine who had an in point -of -fact one or so on and so forth looking here probably under affirming
01:04:19: Affirming the faith, maybe let's see here biblical doctors salvation predestination general security
01:04:27: Maybe not It's it's there someplace I'm looking for it
01:04:33: I'm not seeing it. It is available because I've seen people filling orders for it I thought it might be under the
01:04:39: Trinity or something along those lines, but Maybe someone in the channel would also be able to track it down one one last question for you
01:04:48: And this is off the topic of Islam. Are you familiar with a ministry by Alan Morrison?
01:04:53: He wrote a book called the serpent in the cross No, it doesn't doesn't ring any bells at all, okay, sorry
01:05:02: All right, it ties more into New Age Peter Jones. You're familiar with Peter Jones out at West.
01:05:07: Yes. Uh -huh Yeah, kind of along the same lines as Peter Jones. Okay. He's had some interesting takes on on the issue of September 11th, and his feeling was
01:05:21: Which I think many times Christians are criticized for his feelings are Conspiratorial in terms of the
01:05:29: New World Order shadow government that sort of thing. Mm -hmm. Okay. I didn't know whether that was some no
01:05:35: Not familiar with it at all. Yeah, I did find the thing for you though. Yeah, it's on it's in the in the bookstore
01:05:46: Under miscellaneous topics. Oh great So our miscellaneous section features, so if you go to the bookstore,
01:05:51: I'm looking at it right now And then if you go from there, it's on the right -hand side and it's does
01:05:57: New Testament teach the deity of Christ well, I and I'll let you go after this, but I just want to say that your ministry has had a
01:06:04: Big impact in my life. In fact, I've used your books As kind of a starting point and started teaching classes on Mormonism at at our church.
01:06:14: I've Recommended your book on Potter's freedom. I've got your new book. I think You had a great idea.
01:06:20: I think this is pastor appreciation idea for for pastors in terms of the
01:06:26: Roman Catholicism, but I just have been very impressed with the work you've done and Certainly pray that you'll continue to be a blessing to all of us.
01:06:35: Well, thank you. I appreciate those prayers With with the two young ones going into the teenage years and my teaching at their school
01:06:43: My time is absolutely disappeared. It's been pretty pretty hectic of late.
01:06:48: That's for sure But I appreciate that encouragement always helps me to to press on so hopefully you can pick up that that debate is get the video if you can't not the audio because the
01:07:00: Video has some fascinating stuff in it really does. Okay. Thanks for calling. God bless my back 866 8 5 4 6763
01:07:09: I tell you anytime you pick up the debate the video of the debate between myself and Hams Abdul Malik you get to the end and you
01:07:17: Get to the audience questions and the camera pans down The people who are standing there at the microphone waiting to ask questions all but one of which are asked to me
01:07:28: Gee I can't describe it, but it it was an experience.
01:07:35: I will never Never ever ever forget. Well, anyways, eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three.
01:07:42: Let's talk to Johnny of in -and -out burger fame has a question concerning baptismal
01:07:50: Regeneration and someone told me I forget who owes it was syzygous that told me that that anyone who compares
01:07:58: McDonald's to an in -and -out burger is a moron or something along those lines and I said, I'm sorry
01:08:03: But I had one of those things and I'll take a quarter pounder with cheese any day
01:08:09: Okay, that's all there is to it I don't understand the attraction but it has something to do with,
01:08:16: California So that's just all there is to it Well, I I know and the line is forever
01:08:29: Out here and I do not understand it But that is simply from all the transplanted Californians who haven't really, you know picked up their you know their taste yet Anyways, yes, sir.
01:08:40: Well, my question has to do with that to the lower generation But I do want to ask a side question also in the Muslim religion if I could
01:08:49: My you know when studying the issue of Roman Catholicism as you know I've learned certain things like The early church fathers.
01:09:00: You'd look at guys like Augustine John Chrysostom And then you go up to the
01:09:05: Reformation with a guy like Martin Luther or even in the Middle Ages with guys like Thomas Aquinas Now I don't agree
01:09:11: Obviously you and I both Don't agree with some of the things that Martin Luther said and taught along with Aquinas and Chrysostom and Augustine But are we to view the errors that they made like if I look at an
01:09:23: Augustine, you know I go to Christian bookstores and I'll find Augustine's confessions or Etc.
01:09:29: Am I to look at Augustine? from your perspective as a Christian whom whom had doctrinal errors or should
01:09:39: I say Augustine you believed in baptismal regeneration That's another gospel you're a heretic or how am
01:09:45: I to approach this issue because I'm you know from the understanding that you know you got Anglicans Episcopalians Lutherans and God knows who else also believe in baptismal regeneration.
01:09:57: Is this something that is an error but can be Within the walls of what we consider to be
01:10:04: Christianity in other words, you haven't compromised the gospel completely anyway Yeah, that's a that's a tough question and it is one that everyone
01:10:12: I think has to think through and does think through when they start addressing this particular subject and I think the the first thing to note is that at least for a number of those people they attempt to Differentiate Between what they're saying and the simple idea that the child who is who is baptized is automatically sealed and signed and on their way to heaven and some do it in the sense of Speaking of faith, you know
01:10:40: Luther tried to come up with infantile faith and things like that. So as to maintain justification by grace through faith alone
01:10:48: Others have tried to you know, Augustine Understood it to to be in regards to election that a person who was not elect
01:10:58: And was not given by God that gift of perseverance Would not enter into his presence and hence a a non -elect infant who is baptized is just made wet by the experience
01:11:09: But is not truly Regenerated and redeemed in the in the sense that the elect are and and each one of them involves the impact of tradition
01:11:20: Upon a person's theology and Remember a debate that you did against James Aiken on answers, yeah, it wasn't a debate though Everybody keeps calling it that and I keep saying if it's a debate
01:11:34: I get the same amount of time and I didn't get near The same amount of time. No, no, I'm talking about Christian answers. Oh Okay on eternal security.
01:11:41: Yeah Yeah, right one of the things that James Aiken said was that both Martin Luther and Augustine believed in two kinds of Predestination one was a predestination to initial salvation and the other was a
01:11:53: Predestination to complete salvation from beginning and to the end Well, it's hard to identify what
01:12:00: Luther's view was because it depends on when which which Luther you're talking about I mean the earlier
01:12:05: Luther and the later Luther and so on so forth, but and the same with Augustine I mean Augustine had two different views as well so I suppose you could you could say that where they held at the same time is a is more of a problematic issue
01:12:20: Augustine certainly had the idea of a a person Who could and whether he would include them as being truly redeemed in the sense of being a new creature?
01:12:32: I I don't know But he certainly had the idea of a person who can act as a
01:12:37: Christian and be involved in the church so and so forth Who is not predestined to have the gift of perseverance?
01:12:43: He certainly did believe that God can't God predestines all of his elect to have The gift of perseverance and so one might argue
01:12:52: Well, if you're not given the gift of perseverance, are you truly one of the elect anyways, and that's
01:12:57: I I can't answer that question I don't know because Augustine went through a lot of a lot of different phases and certainly during his
01:13:06: Fighting with Pelagius he would be in a different position than he was when he was
01:13:12: Arguing with Adonitus for example, and it's that kind of inconsistency in Augustine I've used many times as an example of the role of tradition
01:13:20: Overthrowing the the role of ex -jesus and so with both of them you go. Okay. Well, where does where do you cross the line?
01:13:27: At what point do you do you get across the line and say well? No, Augustine could not have possibly been a
01:13:33: Christian because of the fact that Augustine believed XY or Z and I think the basically the place
01:13:41: I draw the line is a person can have a misunderstanding on it on something that's even very important if the positive element of Faith only in Christ and the grace of God only is there
01:13:58: Then the negative element may or may not cause them to cross that line The problem is that the positive element is there.
01:14:05: I don't know how the negative element would automatically become a an internal self -contradiction and That you know people will say well, you can't have any internal self -contradictions.
01:14:16: Well. I think we all do we just not aware of them I think any one of us has a has places where tradition is still
01:14:24: Impacting our thinking ignorance is impacting our thinking and that's why we have to keep going to the word and keep growing and Increasing in the knowledge of and grace the
01:14:32: Lord Jesus Christ So it's a lifelong process and if absolute perfection is what is required none of us are going to make it
01:14:39: So in light of that Yeah, well, you know they would even say he doesn't necessarily have an infallible understanding of all the faith even at that point so in light of that I would say well, that's why
01:14:56: I prefer to deal with theologies rather than theologians That is
01:15:01: I I don't have the ability to to draw that line perfectly in regards to individuals but the perfect straightedge that were to use is scripture and there you deal with theologies and I Basically try to recommend to people you know what?
01:15:18: We can't get back into someone's heart, you know, you know, I can't tell people today
01:15:24: I can't look at someone today and And know whether that person's profession really represents what's in their heart or not
01:15:32: So if I can't tell with living people certainly I can't do with dead people either And so what
01:15:38: I try to tell people is look let's talk about the theology let's talk about what is clear and not what is unclear and so in Hearing something in the background.
01:15:49: That sounds like sounds like our closing music or something, but we're not anywhere near there. So That's an interesting experience.
01:15:56: Are you playing something in the background? No Well, then mr. Warren, you've got something going back there and you need to shoot it.
01:16:03: That's all I can say Anyways, I'll sort of talk louder over the pretty music. That's that's in the background somewhere
01:16:10: Hey, it's John Tash. It's the starting music there went anyways With in light of all that I just I just say look the the way to be clear here is to focus upon what the word
01:16:23: Focuses upon and that's the teaching. That's the doctrine not Well this person he held contradictory views.
01:16:31: Therefore What's God gonna do with him? You know who can take care of that the best? For example,
01:16:39: I don't think that you as a reformed Baptist pastor Would allow say Robert Sabin the one that's been a costly you debated on the
01:16:48: Trinity preach at your pulpit. I don't know But well, maybe you would maybe you wouldn't with Martin Luther well, that's not
01:16:58: I sort of doubt that In today's situation if you're asking today, would we at the
01:17:05: Phoenix reformed Baptist Church have a Lutheran who believed in? Baptismal regeneration preached from the pulpit probably not know
01:17:12: Let me take that back Let me put it this way a John Calvin Preaching at Westminster John John well,
01:17:23: John Calvin would would have had us all banished So I don't think he would have wanted to want to preach Yeah, no, sir, we would we wouldn't have any problem having our sister
01:17:33: Paul preach our church He just never would because your church has to see at least 5 ,000 for him to go there And we are seats about 250 so I mean as a pastor
01:17:46: You wouldn't consider of Martin Luther though. You disagree with his theology. You wouldn't consider him a heretic.
01:17:52: Whereas you would see someone like Pelagius as a heretic or Arius. Yes.
01:17:58: Uh -huh Well, that would that would be true and with with Luther Luther had some problems
01:18:03: But Luther had the positive emphasis on justification by faith down and when he preached baptism regeneration, it was with all these 16 billion caveats on it and He understood the necessity of grace.
01:18:20: He understood the the bondage of the will and so I I do fully expect to see
01:18:25: Martin Luther in heaven, but again, I don't I'm not gonna hang my hat on that Because that's that's not within my capacity when someone raises the issue of what
01:18:35: Martin Luther taught now we can start talking about Issues we can start going to baptism regeneration. We can start talking about whatever we can go the word where it's certain talking about what he himself personally believed you'll find all sorts of Lutherans who disagree with one another as to What Martin Luther actually believed and So since they disagree with one another as to what he actually believed that that becomes somewhat of a of a problematic thing
01:19:04: That really I don't know necessarily has a has a response has anything that really, you know
01:19:09: Why why in the world waste our time on that we have got so much other other stuff to be doing so much other work to be doing, you know,
01:19:18: I For some stupid reason have logged on to a Roman Catholic bulletin board and in the internet and I'm actually writing some responses.
01:19:26: I don't have time To do that, but I like to hear what people are saying
01:19:32: It keeps my mind going it keeps and there's there's a witnessing opportunity there So I'd rather be doing that spending my time on that thing going.
01:19:39: Well, you know during this period of his life He seemed to believe this but then during this for his life He seemed to believe this and you know, where does that mean he's gonna end up?
01:19:47: I don't know I leave it to God Well, do I have enough and I see that question on this one? Oh, yeah. Sure.
01:19:52: I don't know if you got any color colors waiting Nope, I don't okay on Islam I was speaking to a lady.
01:20:02: I I don't know if which threw at you that the idea that I was going to be involved in starting a new church and since then
01:20:10: I Joined the Trinity Reformed Baptist Church over in La Mirada My pastor likes you a lot and One of the conversations that I had with the research started talking about Islam with her and her husband who was the pastor they're doing the thing or their thing over at my uncle
01:20:30: Byron's house and She said that she saw on a channel
01:20:35: I don't know what it was it was on cable and they were talking about the history of the Muslim religion
01:20:40: Yeah, it's actually a PBS thing. Oh PBS. Okay, and she said that Mohammed seemed to have been a peaceful man that were touched by God and and on and on and that later on That actually the people he was around didn't like him and that after he died,
01:20:57: I guess he was killed or something His followers changed his doctrines and made him out to be something that he really wasn't that he
01:21:06: Because the reason I ask this question because of the previous caller was talking about. Dr at a church where he was preaching a teaching a class and in the front of the building where he was teaching there there was some magazines and the magazine caught was called is called a believe it or else and it's on most on the
01:21:31: Muslim religion and he writes it I guess and Basically, he was giving up some quotes in the class where I think
01:21:40: The whole Quran I'm assuming was in one book written by Muhammad. I don't know much and He said that Muhammad wrote in the
01:21:48: Quran that if a Muslim Were to kill a non -believer a non -muslim.
01:21:55: It would not be wrong that they believe that a non -muslim is an infidel Yes, that's somewhat simplistic but yes the
01:22:06: Quran definitely says that the problem is the Quran is a highly self -contradictory work made up of different surahs written at different points of Muhammad's life and Those surahs are in no way shape or form consistent with one another
01:22:25: So there are positive statements about the people of the book. That's the Christians There are statements that say that if they will do what has been given to them in the
01:22:36: Torah and the injeel in the gospel that they will Be rewarded by God, but then there's other sections that say they believe in for example the
01:22:48: Trinity even though it misrepresents the Trinity that they will be severely punished and So you can find stuff about infidels being bathed in the flames of hell and within a few pages find stuff about people who are not
01:23:04: Muslims but who are faithful to what's been revealed to them being rewarded by God, so a lot of it comes down to what your tradition becomes and of course with the
01:23:15: Shiite Muslims who believe in in mullahs in Imams who in essence are not actually prophets
01:23:22: But they are guided by God in their interpretation of the Quran and so on so forth they then will will pick their parts which would include the bathing of infidels in the flames of hell and Your Sunnis your more moderate
01:23:39: Islam Muslims will who don't have their imams and things like that will pick the other ones
01:23:46: So that's what's happening here in the United States where we're being told that Islam needs peace when it actually it means submission
01:23:52: But one thing I don't understand though because you know I'm under the understanding that among Muslims.
01:23:57: There's there's a great diversity of you just as there is among Christians and Jews, etc and Part of it's due to the inconsistencies of the
01:24:06: Quran All right And but the thing is many people say that the Bible contradicts itself now you of course and I myself believe in the inerrancy of scripture
01:24:13: Are there Muslims that are maybe quote -unquote fundamentalist or something which believe in the inerrancy of the
01:24:19: Quran or or do they admit that? They'd have errors to my knowledge all Muslims Unless the most liberal of them believe in the inerrancy of the
01:24:27: Quran without any question It was delivered word by word from Allah through Gabriel to Muhammad the the that's that's not the issue the issue is the interpretation of those inerrant words and the ability to massage
01:24:42: What are obvious contradictions into non -contradictions now people say why you got it the same thing the
01:24:48: Bible difference is that the Bible in so many places is Based upon Historical realities if you read the
01:24:58: Quran you read the Bible you discover that basically the only literature that really
01:25:06: It's a little bit like some of the wisdom literature like maybe Proverbs or something It's a little bit like some of the apocalyptic literature
01:25:13: But you don't have for example the kind of prophecy in Isaiah that's rooted in history
01:25:19: That allows you to define it clearly as to what it was talking about You don't have that same kind of thing. You don't have the the kind of didactic sermon on the mount
01:25:29: Paul writing to the Ephesians type stuff. It's it really had partakes of a very different Kind of literature than then what you have in the
01:25:40: Bible and and hence it is not It's really not subject to the same kind of strict
01:25:48: Historical either confirmation or disproof it works both directions the swords a two -edged version shall we say and so It's it's much more difficult to deal with on that level in regards to alleged contradiction.
01:26:02: We're talking more here on doctrinal contradiction and in light of that That's the reason for all of these different viewpoints is
01:26:11: Muhammad went through all sorts of different stages all sorts of different Perspectives and you know if the
01:26:19: Christians had made a mad that day well lo and behold the the the
01:26:25: Message from from Allah would be that they're going to be bathed in the flames of hell that day
01:26:30: You know it's a sort of it. You know what it actually parallels is some of Joseph Smith's revelation Yeah, but how does this square up with what you said that because I didn't see this special on television
01:26:40: It was the lady that I spoke to and her husband the ones that are starting to charge Starting to starting the church, and they called it the castle of Christ and She was saying that she believed at least based on what she heard on the
01:26:56: Show if it's the same one that you're talking about that he really was touched by God Now that's assuming that what they said on the show was accurate well
01:27:05: PBS is always going to give you the perspective that well What really happened was? Muhammad was this really nice guy and his followers corrupted his teachings.
01:27:13: Just like Jesus is what they're basically saying But that's that's really not
01:27:18: I think a position that can be verified historically so well Hey, you hear the music in the background.
01:27:24: Thanks a lot for your call today Go get yourself a real good burger over at McDonald's there big guy
01:27:30: We'll talk to you again. Thanks for calling the day. God bless Thanks all of you listening in Thank You mr.
01:27:35: Warren Superman has arrived to save the day we made it through we're all in one piece.
01:27:41: Thank you very very much Yes, rich did call in on his cell phone and help us, but hey we still got it done.
01:27:46: Thanks for listening tonight and God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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