Laborers' Podcast- Abolitionists vs Prolifers

Welcome to the laborers podcast. We are thankful you are with us Come back after the intro.

We're gonna be talking about pro -life and abolition Is there a difference?

Is it the same thing? What's up? What are the things that we need to know stick with us? Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love

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Welcome back to the laborers podcast. The comment line is open. We would love to hear from you my brother

Jonathan How are you doing? Good brother. How are you? I'm doing good.

I'm doing good. You just came back from vacation I'm getting ready to go on vacation and I'm thankful the

Lord has given us these opportunity Amen. Amen vacation was very nice this family time getting experience some nature and creation and doing a little fishing and a good bit of sleeping and some reading and Additional quiet time with the

Lord overall. It was just it was really really good really good Yeah, yeah, well tonight's topic

I've been looking forward to having I think it's a conversation that we we need to have

I think People with bigger platforms that we have need to have this conversation

Like other conversations that we've had before I hope the Lord uses us to get that ball rolling to be having these conversations

There's people who have no idea what we're talking about Some people have never heard the term abolition unless it's in reflection to what happened years and years and years ago

They don't even know that this this movement is happening right now We're we're most familiar with these with this term pro -life

And that's been the establishment for for many years in in our generation our life lifetime and now

Here comes this this new wave called abolition and in our generation the focus is on the abolition of abortion

Previously in other generations you had believers you had Christians and I'm sure it was unbelievers who were just convicted about human life

You they saw the abolition of slavery which was praise the

Lord we're thankful for that We're we're glad for those people But there seems to be some tension and I know this is something a subject that you thought a lot about Conversations that you and I have had on this topic

And and I see a lot of similarities In in behavior and and maybe you have

Seen this as well when it comes to other issues. It's it it's a similar behavior

But different topics so you've got the Bible translation issue and people have the same

Behavior over the Bible translation issue. You don't if you don't read if you don't believe

That this certain translation is is the Word of God then this this and this or Calvinism or Anti -calvinism you have this kind of the same behavior if you are this or you're not this

So, let's Give your give your initial comments on the topic.

Yeah, this this topic is deep And You know, we we've partnered for a long time with a ministry called love life and over the last several years

I personally have Become more and more educated on this.

It's really it's really surprising how how Uneducated Christians really are when it comes to the subject of abortion pro -life or abolition

It Across the country in January, there's always sanctity of life day and Christians Would say that they are for the end of abortion or they are against abortion at minimal against abortion and They have a sanctity of life

Sunday and that all of a sudden as long as it's preached on and they say I'm against it And I'm gonna vote for people who would

Be be conservative on the issue Then all of a sudden they think they've done their due diligence and they've done their duty and that's it and the reality is

This this is such a grievous Issue in our country that Christians can no longer idly sit by they must engage somewhere and and that's my heart in it and as far as immediate and It needs to be a comprehensive effort

Whether it's on the sidewalks at the abortion clinics Offering support for say a mom that chooses life say she runs to the church

Where's the church at to to support that family to support that mom to support that that baby that's on the way

We need great godly political leaders that will go to the

Senate and the Congress and the floor of our states and our nations and And advocate for this as well.

I mean, it's got to be a comprehensive across the board kind of thing and and so That that's what

I'm most excited about even though in Within the same team is what

I would consider it You know, like just like you're talking about as as Christians We're on the same team, but then we may debate over Bible translation or debate over different things

But within the same team what we're talking about tonight too is is What what is the best way?

What what are the best ways? to combat this publicly honestly and And what is the desired outcome and and there is a lot of opinion on that And so So tonight,

I hope that we can educate folks on some different opinions and then

I hope that the outcome can be That people at least practically know some ways that they can immediately get involved

With the multiple movements that are going across the United States That is seeing an end to the abortion crisis the abortion and the orphan crisis in our lifetime

That that's our goal. We want to see abortion come to an end I do not want the burden of abortion to be on the shoulders of my children or my children's children

This is my responsibility as a pastor here I want to take personal responsibility to lead my church to be active to be an activist if you will and I know that again becomes a very very loaded word, but But active in The process of seeing abortion come to an end and In fortunately our church we get to do that in multiple different ways.

And so I'm very thankful for that. So, yeah but Based on some of the things you were talking about Part of this conversation that I like to have to is is how do

I maintain my convictions? With without ruining my relationship with somebody who thinks maybe a little bit differently than I do

Some people think We think a lot different than they do, but how do we maintain our relationships and also keep our conviction?

That's part of the conversation that I would like to have and you were talking about this you were talking about the convictions, you know, you're talking about the passion and the zeal that we have and I don't

I don't have a problem with a lot of the strong Descriptions that are used when it comes from Abolitionist like it's it's not wrong to to view.

I don't think Abortion as child sacrifice and make that connection with You know child sacrifice in Scripture and how

God abhors that and how we should have or that You a lot of that strong language, you know,

I think is okay it's just when it comes to The language

I use when it comes to you my brother, um, I think One of the top bullet points when it comes to the the messages that you hear from abolitionists is well, the the child and the preborn the child in the womb the preborn is my neighbor and God calls me to love my neighbor and I totally agree with that, but I also in response say well,

I am your neighbor. That's right Well, you gotta think about it. The child is the neighbor The mother's the neighbor.

You know, the receptionist that's the abortion clinic is the neighbor, right? The abortionist is the neighbor We don't call them brothers or sisters

But they're definitely our neighbors. The doctor is the neighbor the owners of the abortion clinic are our neighbors the the pro pro -choice

Advocates that are there at the abortion clinics that are waving emotion people in and celebrating this and giving out

Balloons to a mom who takes her baby's life They're our neighbors it is a very very difficult thing to grasp and and and I think on the front end

It if you get involved in this it's impossible not to be Emotionally involved it is absolutely impossible

There's gonna be so much anger and sorrow and then there's self -preservation that kicks in There's there.

I mean, there's so many things and and really and truthfully Being led by the

Holy Spirit in the midst of this in our conversations letting our conversations be full of salt and life and as we

Engage one another Is going to be so crucial because you because the again it

I call it having a bubble of grace because I Could use a total different example like what it means to be can having a strong conviction of reform theology or a strong conviction

Especially in my soteriology That was a process for me. That was a journey and and so In this it's a journey as well, it's an education journey.

It's a hermeneutics journey It's a theological journey and we have to understand just because someone may not be exactly where you're at in their journey

Doesn't mean they're not going to get there but but Seasoning our conversations with salt and reasoning with one another over This is going to be very important all the while not expecting anybody on either side of the same team

To compromise on their convictions But be able to know why they believe what they believe and then let the Holy Spirit sort some things out it is the

Holy Spirit is a He is able to shift the hearts to to a clarity

On the other side of this too. We have to remember And you and I have talked about this behind the scenes personally.

There's a group that call themselves abolitionists That do not represent Christ as well at all that they don't they don't represent him really well

Even though they're in the name of Christ. It is it is a it's a barrel load of condemnation and and The Bible is very clear that Jesus didn't come in the world condemned the world

But that the world to him might be saved and so so they're condemned already And so the gospel is what shifts the individual but dealing with an individual versus dealing with with a law or a debate on the

Senate floor or a debate in in the Political realm those are two completely different things too

And it takes a different style of leadership to bring facts to the floor versus counseling with someone individually

I have yet to personally meet a mother that was just thrilled about aborting her baby.

I And But every mother that we've dealt with is is in an absolute

Desperate situation that that that that they feel like there's no way that I can afford this I can't even afford to feed myself or I can't find a job or I'm about to lose my house or I'm about you know

I'm about to be on the street anyways or those kind of situations We've also dealt with other families and and women that they're being prostituted and their pimp is forcing them they're

I mean, there's so many kind of abusive and Desperate situations that they're they're looking for hope and then the next thing they do they turn around they see a guy saying, you know well,

I mean, it's really harsh and terrible what they say, but even very racist and very

Condemning things so yes, it is the truth That set you free. So we are honest that it is sin that has put you in this position

It is grievous sin that has you considering Ending the life of your baby, but there is hope in Christ.

There's hope in Christ and Here we are the church the light of the world to shine the light of Christ into your life

It will not only tell you about Jesus, but will show you the love of Christ So that's dealing with the individual on the other hand.

There's those that aren't at the abortion meals They're not there. They're not advocating for that.

But but there are Kamala Harris That's jumping on there and pulling the heartstrings of making foolish

Statements about you know that we're forcing middle school middle school girls to have babies

You know or we're forcing people to have a baby or those kind of stuff

No, we're not forcing anybody to do anything. The reality is this We didn't force

No one forced conception so regardless of the means

It could have been forceful and people always want to use that argument of rape That may have been forced but conception itself is

Not forced it is it is an act of God. It's a creation of life.

And so even in that the the means by which someone becomes pregnant does not diminish the value of That person's life.

It doesn't diminish that So so that has to be very confrontational that has to be very bold because we're advocating the

Abolition of abortion because of the sanctity of life. I know there's so many Scenarios and so many situations that people want to bring up you what about this or what about that?

What about this or what about that? What is a non -negotiable and non -debatable for us is the sanctity of human life period that this is something that God Gives and absolutely there are tragic horrible situations by which

Things have happened and women become pregnant. It is very rare It is very rare.

It's less than like 1 % of what we're talking about But it does happen but even then

The means by which it happens not diminish the value of that human life and so those are the kind of Conversations going on back full full swing that have to be firm but kind you know and and unapologetic

With understanding, you know, and and so we weep with those who weep and we rejoice to those who rejoice and so that's

So again, that's where it gets confusing There is two different realms of dealing with the individual dealing with the intimacy of a family situation

That has to be very very gentle very kind long -suffering patient and then you're dealing with others who who really are are wicked and And it's a money racket.

And those are the ones that you're very bold and very unapologetic and confrontational with Because because they represent us as representatives and our government so therefore they ought to equally represent

Not only their own conviction But look at what our state represents.

Look at what America represents and have a voice equally across the platform So we should demand that Anyways, sorry.

No, no, no, that's good stuff. And I think scripture Teaches us about our approach.

I have no problem with saying that when it comes to the gospel The gospel is our weapon.

The gospel is what we use. It's what changes It's Jesus Christ is is gospel that Changes hearts.

We can't do it. It's the Holy Spirit It's it's God who does that and I don't have a problem with saying that a part of the gospel is

Confronting sin That's a part of it. You've got to repent you've got to turn from sin

Jesus died And suffer the wrath of God because of sin because of rebellion against God It's a part of understanding the gospel.

However, as I have a conversation with you. I've also got to remember the the the verse such were some of you that's right this

Apart from God That's me apart from God's grace, that's me

And I am no better. I'm no different than The people in the scenarios that you talked about I'm no different no better than the abolitionist the pro -lifer and That should like you said season my conversation with that mentality

I think the scripture teaches us how to approach those conversations not neglecting the confrontation of sin, but you're how we how we go about it and I Think it's a shame and in it saddens my heart you talking about being

This causes deep emotion in us and it sads me deeply that You think about those two terms pro -life and abolition?

Wonderful Christian I believe terms But It's it's sad that we have to reclaim terms just like we're having to do with the rainbow

We're having to reclaim terms except in this case. We're having to reclaim it from Our professing brothers and sisters professing

Christians because you you have And in this kind of looking at the first question, why do you believe that there has been a rise in abortion abolitionist?

Well, you've got you've got the pro -life movement that in Appearances, it doesn't seem like they won't

Abortion to be abolished because they would lose money. It is a business and they that's the impression that's that's what it looks like on the outside and and you talk about the

The though the words not coming to me, but the You know, we feel like we've done our due diligence our duty if we, you know celebrate sanctity of life one day a year we we make the

Acceptable we cast the acceptable vote in in November and we've done our due diligence

But we need to reclaim That that word

And it's the same after that and like you talked about There's some on the other side.

It's a shame that we have to reclaim abolition Because we want the abolition of abortion and then he wanted to end we believe in the tenets of abolition

You know, we all those things are great and wonderful but There's pro -lifers who don't want anything to do with abolition because of abolitionists

There's abolitionists that don't want anything to do with pro -lifers because of the pro -lifers. That's right.

And and my hope is that as we grow and as a as a post meal,

I see all these things as um, I mentioned this a while back i'm not sure if I mentioned it to you or not, but I'm i'm kind of coming at it from the perspective as a post meal.

These are growing things We're working our way through these things. Um, and so We'll get there.

We're not there yet. We'll get there but We need to move past these things there needs to be forgiveness there needs to be repentance from all sides and reclaim these words because As a christian i'm pro -life

As a christian I want abolition Amen Yeah, and that and that's when

I got to chasing the rabbit a second ago. I mentioned the harshness of abolitionism

On certain sects of it And on the other side it is is atrocity and a shame of the other extreme of what's considered pro -life

There really aren't even christian entities at all They really have nothing to do with christ

Nothing to do with the gospel, but then consider themselves pro -life and so Defining the terms and bringing back like you said reclaiming that is very important and and for me

The these are these are Bookends or beginning and end

Uh one in the same because I think the umbrella of pro -life

Is that we believe is just simply a statement. We believe in the sanctity of human life.

We are pro Life and the end result of that is abolition So so I don't

I don't think you can effectively Have one without the other I think

I think they're they're almost synonyms And and it was it was an educational process for me

I was just kind of shocked, you know that over the last several years of Of how far apart those terms really have become that there's the liberal side of things of pro -life and the the hyper side of abolition

And I didn't know they'd become so exclusive You know, I mean it really it really was I was like, holy cow.

I can't believe this because i'm just thinking you know That they practically mean the same thing and if you are pro -life then you obviously desire the abolition of abortion so I I thought that's the most common sense thing, but Again in a wicked and depraved generation that we live in um

They're they're they're not one in the same Holistically, uh, but I do think

I do from from my experience I do think there is a huge group of people in the

United States of America Uh and across the world that that's exactly what they believe

That they're under this umbrella pro -life that they believe in the sanctity of human life And they desire pray for and are active in seeking the end of of abortion across the entire earth

I mean that that's that and and and that That to me is is is the holistic approach

That that I think we have to take that they're not exclusive they're actually hand in hand

Uh working together in that, you know, it's my opinion Absolutely, and I think education is key to this.

It's really really key to this But you were talking about the separation the divide between pro -life and abolition and you're absolutely right and and where it has gotten to But also and and people and this is the part of the education

Uh, there's things about this that that i'm not I don't know because i'm not in those

Inner circles But i'm close enough to where i've seen and observed some of it

There's a divide. There's a split Between different groups of abolitionists, of course, and and they'll say well, you're you're not really an abolitionist right and it and it's

It's frustrating um, but I think education is the key and and some of those folks that Believed I think the people that you're describing that are wholeheartedly pro -life and want to end abortion may

They think if there's a pro -life organization, they're automatically christian Well, they need to be informed that no not all pro -life organizations are christian organizations.

That's part of the education Sure. Um What does What does um, it mean to be um

Or or to call for the the immediate End of abortion the immediacy of it.

What does that mean? And and why do people believe that it's it's sinful Not to call for the immediate end of abortion.

That's part of the education People just don't know people aren't where you are people don't understand

And um instead of the condemnation We need education

Sure, because so many of these things are true Oh, yeah And it's intimidating what what you just said to some people um

Is a very intimidating thing because of the backlash That there we should not make no mistake that there is a cost involved with this

To take take a stand and to call and expect for the immediate end of abortion um

Man, the enemy is going to come out and show his fangs this This is the bedroom

Of satan this this is this is his pride and joy across america We we work in charlotte

At one of the largest abortion clinics in the southeast And let this sink in On average right now, there's between four and five hundred close to a hundred babies per day per day that are taken

That their life is ended a hundred. I mean, this is far worse than the holocaust

And and the gas chambers and all those kind of things. They are lining up by droves between four and five hundred in a week on average

Do the quick math. That's two thousand per month That's twenty four thousand per year from this one single building

And when we're there and we prayer walk through there, I mean it is the valley in the shadow of death

There is no doubt. I mean it is the presence of wickedness I mean the cold chills that run up your neck.

I mean the spiritual warfare And to be there On the sidewalk is just a small glimpse

Of what must be going on in the unseen realms if you will in spiritual warfare And and even deeper across the nation because they're there

Hating us. I mean the the pro -choice workers call us names and cuss us out and and and it's

Confrontational and the reality is this most Americans We're chickens We talk all big and bad but most people avoid confrontation at all costs

And so this issue of abortion you best believe That when you stand up for the abolition of it

It's going to rattle the chains of the enemy And there's going to be a conflict and then conflict in of itself is

Is at often times of what did it all cost and so and this is one of those things you can't avoid the conflict the only thing you control is

Is how you handle the conflict, you know? And it's a shame part of our conversation. It's a shame that that that conflict is coming from inside.

That's right i'm inside the team, um And i'm totally sympathetic to to that position because Just that there's so many more statistics

There's so many pictures that we can pull up so many stories that you jonathan could give

And but just those numbers that you offer right there if you if you took a moment to to listen to what you just said to Let that what you just said sink in to digest on what you just said just those numbers alone

I'm sympathetic With that position that wants to grab people by the shoulders and say why are you so apathetic?

of course Why are why are we not? Trying to reach our our senators and our representatives.

I can understand that position Those people are also our neighbors

Right that we should love That are not where we are and I was in but for the grace of god

I would I would be horrible horrible nasty center

I mean and so We we've got to have a balanced approach

Because I mean that kind of heart zeal and passion.

I have no problem with because it's totally That's that's an appropriate um

Feeling from the heart to have that response Just hearing those numbers that you you you gave us

And I think it's who we're confronting. I think that's the big question It's the who um, the how matters as well, but it's the who and um

And so it's I think it'd be appropriate to jump into this right here for just a second.

Um, so a lot of pastors We've talked to pastors literally, you know, you you nor I either one or little guys, you know and and want to lay hands on them and shake the fire out of them because they'll say

I don't preach about abortion or I don't talk about abortion because it's too political and man,

I just want to put those brothers in a headlock and kick over their pulpit, um because it's this is something that is

A smack in the face or an attempted smack. Let me say that I don't want to over Over Weaken who

God really is but it's an attempted smack in the face of God Because we're created in the image of God And this is this is an attempted smack at God himself to diminish and demolish

What he has in the earth is his image And then pastors say well, this is this is a political issue.

It's not a theological issue No, this started as a theological issue And then satan and his kingdom of darkness have

Possessed and taken ground Through the government and now has his little dominions there if you will

That ought to be rebuked in the name of Jesus that ought to be that ought to be a strong rebuke and the men of God In our country need to but where I want to be patient is

When I talk to a lot of those guys there are some that are just cowards and there's no way around it

That's just that's all I can say I I would still probably call them brother

But they're cowards um But there's others That are not they've just never been exposed to the reality of it

Honestly, they they've never dug enough and it's and it's wild Robert how

Even the statistics that I just shared with you Aren't published the reason we know those statistics is because we have people standing at the abortion clinic counting we have counting the the cars that come in from alabama and from south carolina and And georgia and these other places in kentucky places that states that have took a stand and And they're driving in from those places and we have people standing there counting pleading with mothers to choose life and so um

But a lot of these pastors have no idea. They don't know so what we've been doing too It's very important to take a pro -life guy

Who has no idea what abolition is and expose him to the full counts of the truth And the way to expose him to it isn't yelling in his face about him being an idiot now the guys that are cowards

I I I we we need to say that too. We need we need to we need to the bible's very clear

Uh, but there are those that are not they're bold. They're courageous for the gospel. They've just never been exposed

To the reality of this the enemy's done a really good job Keeping those statistics and the seriousness of this underground like not not

Not that not being on the forefront so now we have a responsibility knowing those truths To expose people to it, you know, it's very important Well, and and I don't want anybody to get me wrong

That what you just said made me think about this and I don't want anybody to get me wrong i'm not saying in the things that i've mentioned tonight that in our conversations between man to man

Leader to leader that I don't know if this is a word or not, but effeminatize our conversations

We shouldn't do that. You know, we should we should speak truth. That's right, and we should be um observant we should be aware

Like you said who we're talking to And then mix that with how we should talk to them.

But no, but no we don't water it down No, we don't effeminatize our our conversation.

You're exactly right 100 Hey, how about we work on just real quick a couple of definitions?

I think we kind of said it but maybe just discussing Similarities and then then what are legitimate differences?

Okay between what we're talking about pro -life and abolition. So let me ask you that question.

So how How would you define? the similarities between pro -life

And abolition, how would you what similarities would they have in your mind? so in in our heart of hearts,

I truly believe that there are a tremendous amount of similarities

I think You can't be an abolitionist without being pro -life why because Without consequence we

Have made it legal for a A person To murder another innocent person who is an image bearer of god that like you said and perfectly stated um god

Created that life. That's right God created that life and so You can't be an abolitionist without being pro -life without Loving the sanctity of life because they are an image bearer of god

And he created them and so and you can't be pro -life without wanting the end the complete end of abortion and and truly,

I think you can't be pro -life if you um If you don't want um equal justice

Um equal protection for that pre -born child who is an image bearer who is a fellow human being

No matter where they're in the womb or on the moon. It doesn't matter location and and all those other examples.

It doesn't matter You you want equal protection. You want equal justice. You want equal justice for Um our our all our family members all your friends who are outside of the womb

Um, and so as a pro -lifer, I feel like in our heart of hearts they want that as well.

So those are the Those are some of just a few similarities that I see between both groups.

Um, they're they're the same Uh, two different sides of the same point if you're pro -life you're abolitionist you're abolitionist.

You're you're pro -life. You just got to be Sure. It's yeah Go ahead.

Yeah. No, I would just add add to that to just keep in mind when we talk about pro -life

We're talking about multiple prongs, too There there are multiple layers everything from pregnancy care centers

To to people that are attempting legislation To people that are trying to do counseling.

I mean pro -life is is like a really big sophisticated web of things whereas abolition

Abolitionist what I do appreciate about it. It's it's it's like pinpoint One specific thing there's not there's not this multiple ventures of of a web of things trying to to Attack the issue of abortion.

It's the one specific thing even though different Methodology may be used. It's one specific thing thing, which is to abolish abortion.

That's it. That's like very specific whereas pro -life may be may be

Uh child care even post -birth Continuation, you know, that could be that's the pregnancy care centers they're doing that and in even after birth care of a child or um, it can be biblical counseling or it can be so many so many other things and so um

So yeah, they do work hand in hand What but what what are some differences that you would say now like like those are similarities.

I think we're hitting on that if if we could Like define what the primary difference is especially on the legislation area

I think that would help also people know when we're talking pro -life versus abolition

What would you say is the difference in that? let's

If if you allow me to I want to hang on to that I think I think answering this question from matt will sure will help answer, um two of the questions that you brought up differences and The good point that you made because there's some branches

In appearance of abolition that only want to have a narrow focus I think this will help as we talk through this will help answer both of those questions

So matt's question is one of the biggest issues I see Is that much of the church and the pro -life movement continues to buy into the lie of the mother as the second victim?

How do we combat that? I think this goes back to what you were talking about. Jonathan.

There are multiple layers Is is it true that?

If if an individual murders their pre -born human innocent child

They're guilty of murder Yes Are there circumstances where she is a victim?

Yes Can both be true? Yes, so like you said we can't be so narrow That she's she's guilty she's guilty she's guilty prosecution prosecution which may be appropriate but There's so many other layers

And I think this is where some of the differences come in um that we're talking about pro -life, um versus abolition and differences between abolition and abolition um and also

Talking about the multi -layers of the situation versus Because you're you're good about talking about those multi -layers when it comes not just this issue, but other issues when you're when you're trying to to speak to individuals about other areas of sin um some some people just want to shun them from their church and not allow them in the doors because of This or that and the other and you're like hold on a second.

What's our approach with these people? You're good about talking about those multi -layers multi -situations

Um, would you like to address that in this situation? Sure. Well, let's start with A couple of different scenarios

So let's say and this has happened I literally have counseled people with this There is there is a reality of something called a tubular

Pregnancy where Where an egg is fertilized It attaches

Not in the uterine wall as normal, but it is in in the tube it is

Microscopically impossible to find that specific egg and move it those kind of things and so So it is not what we would consider a viable pregnancy and there is medical procedure to And it would be considered a type of abortion

So there's an ethnical very real type scenario Of something that that is obviously a non -viable

Pregnancy it is a grievous situation um but You know

Other than the lord doing a miraculous work Which he does and he can you know

Do we fault that family for for that Do we say oh you wicked sinful murderous people

Where there really is? No viable option for the baby or the mother and it can create such harm that she can have no more children

So that's that's the scenario, you know, that is very real to where It's not just Cut and dry black and white.

This is a real medical condition. The reason I bring that up though the left the extreme left is

Using situations like that as a threat Just that doctors now won't perform needed medical procedures

Because they're afraid they'll go to jail Because now they're going to be considered that they've aborted a baby

And so now the mothers get severe infection it does The baby or the the fertilized baby there dies in the tube

And then remains there the mother gets infection septic And now she her life is literally in danger and then it takes a much more serious surgery and procedure to deal with that so So again,

I get it there's not cut and dry situations, but when we start talking about is the mother the victim

There are times yes, she is we we we rescued a mom And and she chose life.

We praise the lord for that. But what had happened was I'll spare details, but she she basically was a prostitute

And and her pimp Had her forced her to the abortion clinic after He had pimped her out for a week solid to a frat group

And then by the end of that week She was abused taken advantage of Horrible stories

She ends up being pregnant now. He's forcing her there to having an abortion. So not only is this woman uh dealing with The ending of the life of a baby being abused

She's now sexually abused assaulted multiple times all those kind of scenarios and so So we literally had to call that we call the police.

I mean like like she snuck her way over to us Talked to us shared with us Her story and literally got the police involved

And all this kind of stuff and literally had to help her find a place to hide And she chose life and we praise god for that but also

Not to justify anyone's actions that would end the life of her baby But here's a woman that was in such desperate dire straits

That it was not a black and white situation in her mind, even though it's very black and white in our mind in her mind

She's been so abused and tattered that She she can't think fully logically about even long -term consequences all she knows

Is how much damage has been done to her over the past two weeks and now as a result of that she's pregnant and just like so So it's situations like that brother that that yes women are victims um the problem on the flip side and I think what matt's getting at of what we combat is not all women are can are matter of fact,

I would say 95 percent of Abortions, even though they are I believe in desperate situations are more out of convenience than it is out of out of an abusive or Or or a legitimate medical issue or those kind of stuff

Even if we hold that over here for a separate conversation, we we should be in a hundred percent agreement

Across the board of the 95 to 98 percent of other abortions That would be considered

Uh, this baby's going to be an inconvenience to my life. So therefore i'll just have an abortion um

Regardless of where you land on this and we're going to land Personally, I am and I know you will too we're going to land more on the very conservative side of that But even if there was a conversation with grace and Kindness over here to go back and forth

We should link arm and arm with the other 95 percent 100 percent of the time Uh Because those women cannot play the victim card in that when they're there to have an abortion out of convenience and so So they're not a victim in those situations uh, they're more out of the place of of just this baby will inconvenience my life so Um, so that's the sad part, you know, and and again, it's just truth telling

Um, and also the women have been convinced that they are a victim There are a victim of society.

They're a victim of their circumstance and one of the most wonderful things in the gospel is

To share the good news that these women not only are they treasured by god. Their child is treasured by god

And you know and they themselves are beautifully and wonderfully made And talking to them about the sovereignty of god and the goodness of god

That he would entrust this woman with a child um, it's amazing to watch them light up now fear kind of sets in sometimes too, but it's amazing to watch people light up and and uh and see

See the hope that they have and especially when the church comes along and just says hey And you're not alone, you know, god's got your back.

He's with you and is an evidence that god's with you. We're with you um, and it's it's amazing so I don't know if that answers fully that question, but uh

I appreciate that answer. Um, I think it was good and I had

I think that's a difficult way to pose this question how do you can how do you combat and change this by buy -in that Mothers are the second victim or mothers are victims um

I think that's a difficult way to pose that question And I don't understand why we we cannot

Why it's not appropriate to understand the situation Like you said

And listening to the scenarios that you brought up That doesn't

Just like you just said that does not take away from the fact that taking the life of an image bearer who was innocent free woman

Who pre who's pre -born? is Murder doesn't take anything away from that To get another situation because both can be true.

She can be a victim. She can be also be you know guilty so minister minister minister minister and and also

The bible talks about the purpose of government purpose of government is to punish the guilty

Reward the righteous we want righteous laws on the book Murder is wrong.

And so we also should be for equal protection and equal justice Both can be true.

Well, we I mean you have prison ministry Will you go in and minister to to people all the time who are guilty?

Justice has been served, but you still mean and when we go and minister to them

Gotcha gotcha He gave us another comment. I guess my issue that the second victim mentality is huge hurdle with the equal justice equal protection under the law

Yeah, um, it can be but I think we can have a both and be both We need to understand the situation and and And pray and work towards righteous laws but also minister to The individual even if they even if they're not the victim the second victim even if they are guilty just like jonathan said

They are fearfully and wonderfully made And we and we can minister to them as well. And so we we do both

Yeah, we talked to the lady that You know, not we talked to sorry. Jesus obviously Had much mercy on the lady caught in the very act of adultery and I think we sometimes forget he that was without sin cast the first stone, you know, and that I'm, i'm not a rock thrower, you know, because I deserve to be stoned and I don't think anybody's trying to be um

But but but I definitely understand um I think

I understand what matt's saying and and and and he's right In that the second victim mentality is is a big hurdle to equal justice right, and the reason it is a hurdle is because we put the

The life of the mother as a greater value over the life of the the infant

Right that that's that's what that's what that's what this debate really all comes down to is and that's why people have tried to to um redefine a fetus uh

You know a fetus or these kind of things to devalue that human life So that the mother's life is more valuable

And and we're saying that they're equally valuable. That's right equally valuable.

So that's right Uh, go back to answer your question as we wrap things up. Um Boy that time has flown.

I appreciate you so much Uh, go back to to the question that you asked me about the differences when it comes to to legislation um,

I think with the Where the pro -life movement is Now it seems that many are okay, we we brought up the terminology incrementalism um

Getting getting what we can being more pragmatic in our legislation

So we're we're okay with a a 40 -week bill All right. Next time we're going to try for a 20 -week bill and next time we're going to try for a 12 -week bill um

And then we try for a heartbeat bill And so it seems like the pro -life movement pro -lifers are more okay with pragmatism incremental regulatory type legislation and bills um

The abolitionist side of it are more immediatist where You can't regulate murder

That's what they would say you can't regulate murder Um, you you're still allowing for the murder of these underneath that that Line, you know before 40 weeks still murder before 12 weeks still murder

Before heartbeat still murder. It's a lie. God created it um And so I think that's the one of the main differences in in legislation is the incremental pragmatistic type approach

Uh Versus the mediatism type approach and what I think is sad though is that when

There's the potential for an abolition bill to be on on the table

On the floor to make any movement. What's very very sad Is that you have pro -life organizations calling senators calling representatives send them emails and say don't

Don't Support this abolition bill Because like we talked about earlier if you're pro -life you should be abolition if you're abolition you should be pro -life and if there if If your goal if your actual goal if you're an incrementalist if you're okay with incrementalism

And your goal is to work work work your way down chip away at it Incrementally if that's your goal

And you have an abolition bill on the floor that You you're saying that ultimately that's your end goal.

Well your end goal could be Come to fruition right now Instead, you know instead of all these chips you could have a big whack and the whole tree come tumbling down.

Sure Why? Knock it down Why put it back on the shelf?

Why kill it? When if that's your ultimate goal and that's why I said at the beginning of the episode they give off the perception that They don't want it to end because it's a big money -making business

Sure That's right And that and that's and I think that that hits it on the head and the reality is both should be advocates for both in my opinion um abolitionists

In my opinion, I think their extreme is it's all or nothing So that that's that's that that's at least the message that you hear so 100 % agree with what you said

Uh 12 weeks 40 weeks, whatever murder still murder. Um So that's been the tear in my heart

Yes, you're you're 100 % right and and again, I want to be honest on here is i'm working through this.

I am I am an abolitionist I want it right now all of it gone and ended

But I still celebrate whatever lives can be saved in the process And so that's the struggle that I feel like that that um

We should we should advocate for legislation That is that abolishes abortion and until then let's celebrate every victory that we can get but what happens is it's like That those things tear each other down And as a result, then we become an opposition even on the same team

And the enemy knows that that a house divided cannot stand you know and And a strong man can come into a house divided and tear it apart.

And so those Those are the kind of things and so So again, that is one area when it comes to legislation that i'm still working through because I honestly don't

Understand and know all the processes And all the things that are required for a bill to make it to the floor

Um, I know that there are hundreds and thousands Of backdoor backhanded deals and this person's scratching this person's back and that kind of stuff and so That that's an area where I I don't understand

Politics. I am a political person. I am i'm a theological person first and then my theology dictates my politics but how

How politics works in Washington or in Raleigh for North Carolina or those kind of things um

I don't I don't think we live in a world. That's just black and white We're actually something actually even makes it to the floor just because it's right uh people are are driven by money and greed and and Favors and this and that and the other and as a result

Um, I think there's very few politicians that are just truth seekers

That they're they're constantly forced in a position to compromise and so so that's

That's that's the hard part about it and I and I want to be I think we have to be honest about that um

And then I do know we all agree with this that that legislation Does not change the heart

And so that's why it's a both -end issue I do think it's a legislative issue But it's a condition of the heart issue um

And it's just mind -boggling to me That it's even a debate It just right.

It just shows the wickedness of the hearts of people That we even have to have this discussion

Right that this is even defended Um, it's it's just a wicked deceitful heart and so it really is grievous.

It really is sad, but um but anyways, I mean, so yes, let's Let's get every piece of legislation to the floor that we can

That brings an end immediately to all abortions um, and I would support anything that would

Do that as loudly as possible and in the end state by state

I still think we should celebrate every Every piece of property that we take back every foothold that we take back.

Uh, I'll tell you one quick story We we just heard about it the other week. Um, the ministry again love life.

They have another place And uh down in I think it was in florida But anyways another missionary down there and stuff and they're working like crazy a large abortion mill down there and uh that abortion mill closed

And now love life has the deed to that property and now it's going to be a pregnancy care center and so So no, that doesn't bring an abolition to abortion

But at least does in that building and what was you once used for death is now going to be used to be an advocate for life and so So that's it.

You know, I think we have to celebrate step by step process by process Um, and then we'll see we'll see how the lord brings it about.

Um, And uh, i'll close with this so many times. I just wonder I pray god like david was

Prayed how long? How long are you going to allow these enemies in our land? Like how?

How long like are you just going to allow this to go on? How long are you allow our enemies to triumph over us?

Like are we not crying out to you day and night? And the bible is very clear that those that cry out to the lord day and night he listens and he hears and responds and so So there's no reason to become discouraged

In this fight because the lord hears the prayers of his saints And he does respond and this is the heart of god to to bring an end to abortion.

I have no doubt about it Um, but I do think it's a form of judgment in the earth that he allows it for whatever reason now it is a form of judgment to To prove our iniquity to prove the wickedness of the hearts of people.

So um So we need to be on our face praying and on our feet going

Well, I'll give my final thoughts and if you would I know you I know you I know you I know you love to do it and i'd love for you to Share the gospel and I close with some prayer when you finish doing that But but my last thoughts are you you were wrapping up talking about the the political side of things um until we can get the majority of representatives

Who are genuine christian? Who submit the need of christ? and and and not um

All these other things backdoor deals majority Opinion until until we get a group of men and women in there who are who are actually

Genuine in their faith and and submit the need of christ. I don't think it's wrong for us to remember

How politics works right now I remember speaking to to someone in that field i'm going to be as general as possible because I don't want to implicate anybody or Anything like that, but someone in that field and the comment was made

Well, it it takes we're speaking of, you know abolition deal It takes money

You got to raise a lot of money. It takes money Of course my thoughts are

We profess christ we submit to him Let he let him worry about the money i'm going to obey him, you know

What's right and what's wrong what honors him and what doesn't that's the direction we need to go not

Well, we don't have the money The other thing is What else persuades?

Their voting when it comes to legislation their constituents Where are we church?

Amen, where where are we church? We're satisfied with pragmatism.

We're satisfied with with incrementalism it If you know just like you said jonathan

If there's a bill that that totally annihilates abortion for good

Why can't we celebrate that why can't our representatives know our position that safety of life means that We do our job

And and we share the gospel We we um, we just make disciples

And you do your job protect the innocent reward the righteous And and punish the evil

You do your job and we'll do ours But we're calling on you to be doing yours

This is what god says life is And so if if we would come together

We're their constituents That's right. And and there's a lot of us and we can have a voice

So, thank you. Thank you everybody for for listening and and I hope it was encouragement to you

Jonathan, would you mind to share the gospel? Absolutely. Um There was a sunday that I was just Pounding on the pulpit

Because I was one of those poor pastors many years ago that did the sanctity of life sunday and I would stick my finger out in the audience and in the congregation and Call those who had aborted their babies murderers men and women um as men supported their their wives or their girlfriends and and Raise my finger and they're all murderers because there's no way anybody in my congregation had ever had an abortion

And a dear lady came to me and said pastor. Can I meet with you? And I said, yes, of course and so we went back and sat down in my office and her and her husband and She said

I want you to know something she said when I was 23 years old I got pregnant then

I had an abortion And being a very very young pastor,

I mean that's been Over 20 years ago that that happened being young in my ministry um

I just remember getting really quiet and this sweet lady who I would consider her a dear sister a mother in the faith

She said do you realize that one in three? women Have had an abortion

And there's no difference between those who are christian and non -christian And I started running those statistics and I started um

Thinking through that and thought about how many people were in my church and how many women were in our church And that was a large number and the next sunday.

I walked to the pulpit And I preached the message on the gospel because the gospel says this no matter how grievous your sin and no matter how

How wicked we've been and how deceitful our heart has been and the in the words that we've used to describe the wickedness of people

Robert said it very well of some of those things That's exactly who

I was we were those things But I love it. It's in past tense and that doesn't make us

Any better than anybody else, but it's past tense only because of the grace of god Because jesus christ paid for all of my sin

And The next sunday I walked to the pulpit and I preached the gospel about the forgiveness of sin and the work of redemption of the cross

And I said and it's and it includes all that have had an abortion All that have aborted their babies

We would say yes, it is murder. It is a grievous horrible sin

But jesus died for murderers Jesus died for adulterers.

Jesus died for for drug addicts and the most wicked of all which

By the grace of god were saved from those things And so tonight

I want you to hear me if you if you're watching this and you've had an abortion know that there is No condemnation from us

But there is the hope of the gospel of jesus christ That he died to pay for that sin

And as I shared for shared that with our congregation, it was unbelievable how many women

In my congregation Began to confess their sin they had held on to that secret for years and years and years

And it was eroding them inside. It was it was bringing tremendous heartache and as those women confess their sin

Receive the forgiveness of christ in their life It set them free and some of the greatest advocates that we have that are ministering

At the abortion clinics on the sidewalks doing ultrasounds with these ladies Pleading for life.

They're the very ones who have had abortions They would tell you that we speak on this issue

Plainly not because we were perfect But because we know the devastation of the failure and we're pleading with you not to walk in the same path that we walked in But walk in life and walk in hope because christ is real

And then we also still have a ministry It's called healing hearts and we walk with women who's even had abortions

And and we share the gospel with them. So if you're listening to this tonight If you've had an abortion or you're entrapped in some kind of sin

Just know that the gospel is very plain that god so loved the world. He so loved you that he sent his son

When he sent his son his son died for us took our sin and knelt it to the cross and blotted it out of the way so that that we can have

All that believe that and believe on him have everlasting life. So we have forgiveness of sin We have we are given the the right to become the sons and the daughters of god and so tonight if you're trapped in that or you've

Had an abortion or you've taken someone to have an abortion and there's guilt and there's grief just know there's hope in jesus

If you're entrapped in some other sin, just know there's hope in jesus Just know that you don't have to live ashamed because the bible says on the cross he bore our shame he bore our guilt and by his stripes we are

Healed. So therefore that sin sickness that we have by the blood of jesus the stripes laid on his back

Their sin nailed to the cross that he knew knew no sin He became that sin nailed it to the cross his hands and feet nailed to a cross

And he died and with him our sin died With him our old self died

And then we praise god on the third day. He rose again That's the freedom that you can have in christ is new life when jesus rose from the dead.

He conquered death. He conquered hell He conquered our sin praise god. So now my sin has no more authority over me.

I am not held back from god Separated from god because of my sin, but jesus who paid the debt for that and conquered that Made me right with god through his work

And so therefore just know that that's the good news of the gospel that no matter how grievous our sin

You can be made right with god because of the work of jesus And what do we do with that? You call upon the name of the lord if the lord is has pricked your heart in the midst of this and you say man

Would god would god hear me a sinner? Would god hear me someone who's had an abortion?

Would god hear me a man that took my girlfriend to have an abortion? Would would god forgive somebody like me?

Absolutely Absolutely. He will because he said whoever calls up on me

Whoever comes to me jesus said whoever it is He will not turn you away

So call upon the name of the lord call upon him now And tell him you need a savior and you're sorry for your sin

Plead with him to save you And the bible says he will It's wild. I don't understand that part of it.

I I wish there was something very Specific that I could say Other than in faith receive it

And then once you do tell somebody about it find a local christian find somebody who's a bible believing pastor

Or a friend who's a christian call them and tell them what you've done tonight Send us a message and say hey tonight.

I've called on the lord. I've been saved and now what do I do? I I believe you I believe the gospel, but what do

I do? We'll help you. We'll help you get connected. We'll help you grow in your faith We'll help help you with counseling or others will

To to get discipled and understand more of the depth and the beauty and the wonderful grace of god

That is now upon your life if you believe god's word that christ died for you

So I hope you'll believe that tonight receive jesus and be forgiven of sin be made right with god

And then let his church Nurture you and grow with you through this process

Father, we give you all praise glory and honor your gospel your design to Save us is so Good Yes, and we give you all praise

Because you are the one that deserves it Not us there's nothing that we have done it's all of you

And we thank you And father we pray and ask that you would help us

As we continue to grow together in these truths And be yielding to your spirit as we apply them

Help us to trust in you in jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen. We appreciate you guys so much joining us

Thank you for supporting the network. Thank you for your prayers. Hope it was encouragement to you Thank you, jonathan.

Love you, brother, and we hope to see the rest of you Real real soon. Have a good evening.

Thank you for joining the laborers podcast Remember jesus is king

Live in the victory of christ speak with the authority of christ and go share the gospel of christ