Interview with Former Roman Catholic Mike Gendron

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters.

I hope that you and your family are doing well today.

I want to thank you so very much for joining me for this podcast.

And I want to say a couple of things real quickly before we get into the interview with Mike Gendron.

One if you are a Roman Catholic.

Maybe you saw this thumbnail and you're a Roman Catholic and you decided to see what this is about.

Please do watch the entirety of this interview.

Please do know that Mike and I did this interview not because we hate

Roman Catholics.

Not at all.

We love Roman Catholics.

Mike Gendron was himself a Roman Catholic for the first half or so of his life.

So we we love Roman Catholics, but we love them enough to tell them the truth.

So, please watch this.

Please watch this with an open mind with an open Bible if you have maybe you're not Roman Catholic.

But you have friends or family members who are please watch this.

Really trust that it will be helpful for you.

That's the first thing.

The second thing is that my audio is messed up in this interview.

I didn't realize it until the interview was over and I went back and watch facts, you know notice I'm wearing the same shirt.

So this is a recent discovery, but apparently my computer.

I got a new computer.

And apparently this new computer with a new chip was not compatible with the version of zoom

that I had.

That I'd already had installed.

So anyway, I think that's fixed right now, but it's too late for the interview.

So I'm gonna sound like I'm in a well, so I do apologize for that.

You'll be able to hear me.

You'll be able to understand me.

It's just not not great quality at all.

Mike's is okay.

Mike's audio is okay, but mine not so much but at any rate, I hope that won't be a Distraction to you.

Okay, let's go to the interview.

It is my privilege to have Mike Gendron as my guest.

Here on my youtube channel my podcast and just a little bit of background information.

Mike and I met.

Oh What Mike.

Seven eight nine years ago or so, maybe eight or nine years or so, right?

And.

And we became friends Mike and his wife Jane.

I've become dear friends of Kathy and me and There's a lot of similarities actually

between Mike's Testimony and that of my wife's and that Mike like my wife was

Roman Catholic for the first 34 years of his life.

I think my wife Kathy was so for the first 35 of her life, but So God

graciously saved Mike Gendron out of Roman Catholicism.

He was steeped in Roman Catholicism and Mike attended In an

evangelical conference and God used the truth that was presented there To prick his heart and began to open

his eyes to the deception.

That is the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholicism and then in 1988 about

seven years after that Mike enrolled in Dallas Theological Seminary to continue

his studies at a more academic level and Now Mike and his wife

Jane are both involved in ministry.

Of course.

Mike is the only one who preaches and teaches at least in the public sense, but God has opened up

a ministry of evangelism to Mike and I tell people often that

Mike Gendron is to Roman Catholicism what I am to word of faith in a sense and

Mike had Mike and his wife Jane both have a passion for Presenting the truth

and seeing God deliver people out of the deception.

That is Roman Catholicism.

And Mike is the author of two books preparing for eternity and

Contending for the gospel.

So Mike brother.

It is a pleasure to have you on.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Well, it's just my joy and my privilege to be on your show and we've done a lot of ministry together over

the years.

So it's good to team up here for this podcast.

Indeed indeed brother.

All right.

Well Mike today as of this recording, this is November the 4th 2021 so we're just

a few days removed from the.

504th.

Anniversary of The beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

It was October the 31st 1517 that a Roman Catholic monk

by the name of Martin Luther famously nailed his 95 theses to the door

to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany and so, you know what most people

think of October 31st is Halloween, but you and I think of it as as Reformation

Day, so Mike tell us a little bit about About the Protestant Reformation.

What was it and and was it even necessary in the first place?

Well, sure Martin Luther Strategically chose October 31st to nail his

95 theses on the church door in Wittenberg, Germany.

Because the next day was All Saints Day and that's when Roman Catholics were going to go in to worship

and venerate relics and relics are bone fragments or hair

spotches or fingernails of Roman Catholic saints.

And so they were supposed to receive indulgences by confessing to a priest and venerating these

relics.

Martin Luther chose this day so that many people would see his 95 theses and his 95

theses really protested the use of indulgences.

In fact, Martin Luther was outraged that Roman Catholic Church was selling God's forgiveness

for a price and so by nailing these 95 theses He was looking for a debate so

that people could actually sit down and talk through these and so the Reformation was necessary

because If you look at the history of the Roman Catholic Church it began

drifting into apostasy really around the fourth century when Constantine became the

Roman Emperor and he Established Christianity as the official

religion of the Roman Empire.

But it was a false Christianity because no one had to have faith.

I just had to be baptized and that was how they became a part of this church that

Constantine was the pontificus maximus of and so a lot of pagan traditions came in to

that church early on and as the years went by more and more pagan traditions were

added to the Roman Catholic religion, so.

The word apostasy means they departed from the faith of the Apostles.

And what they started doing as Paul mentioned in 1st Timothy chapter 4 verse 1.

They departed from the faith to follow doctrines of demons so

The Roman Catholic Church became very demonic over the years.

And so when Martin Luther nailed these 95 thesis it had really progressed to the point where it

no longer resembled biblical Christianity, especially when it comes to the gospel and so the

Purpose of the Reformation was to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ to the people and as

these reformers began abiding in God's Word they Discovered the truth and that

truth set them free from religious deception and religious bondage.

And that's true today as people abide in God's Word.

If they're trapped in religious deception the truth will set them free.

Yes, indeed indeed.

Well, my.

So you mentioned Constantine and a question that I'm often asked is I travel and preach and teach and I I hit on

Roman Catholicism as well because there's a lot of There's a lot of commonality between word of faith and Roman

Catholicism.

A lot of people don't realize that but there's a lot of Overlap there.

But a question I'm often asked is this has the Roman Catholic Church always been as

Heretic.

Did it start off as heretical as it became in later centuries?

Yeah, it's a good question when you look at the history of the Church we really have two

streams of Christianity running side -by -side for 2 ,000 years.

We stay in the first century.

There was apostasy first.

John chapter 2 verse 19 John says they went out from us because they were never part of us had they

been part of us They would have remained with us.

Another way John could have said that they went out from us because they were never born again of the Spirit of God.

Had they been born again, they would have remained with us.

And so you see these two streams operating side -by -side.

The true apostolic church is made up of all those who have been born again of the Spirit of God.

It doesn't matter today.

What denomination if you were baptized by the Spirit of God you belong to the one true Church

but the Roman Catholic Church.

Started preaching baptismal regeneration even as early as the 4th century.

So they declared that a person was born again through the waters of baptism and so

That put the gospel off limits to a lot of Catholics.

They thought they were already on the road to heaven through their sacrament of baptism.

But as the church evolved with more and more heretical doctrines in the 13th

century, for example, they established the supposed miracle of transubstantiation

where the priest has said to have the power to call Jesus Christ down from heaven and Then through this

miracle of transubstantiation the inner substance of a wafer Becomes his physical body and blood

soul and divinity.

So the priest will then lift up the wafer for all the Catholics to worship The wafer as the

true Christ having been called down from heaven to continue the work of redemption on an altar that he

finished on the cross and so The Catholic priest will lift it up.

All the Catholics will worship to the Eucharist and then he will lay it on the altar as a propitiatory

sacrifice such that The sins committed in the previous week by Roman Catholics

are appeased by God through the offering of this Eucharist and so more and more

Heretical teachings came into the Catholic Church to the point where God raised up these

Reformers and one of the heresies was that they named the Pope as the head of the church.

Now we know the true head of the church is the Lord Jesus Christ.

He's the one that suffered and died and bled.

He purchased the church with his own blood.

How dare the Pope declare himself to be head of the church?

And so the Reformation actually reestablished Christ as the head of the church.

The Reformation also was necessary because the Catholic Church had elevated the teachings of their

Infallible bishops above the authority of Scripture.

Yes.

In fact when you stop and think about it if anyone is above Scripture and they're the only ones that can

interpret it Then they have placed themselves above the inerrant inspired authoritative Word of

God.

So the Reformers established the Scriptures as a supreme authority.

And that's why when we look at the Reformation we have these five important solos the Catholic

Church had taught.

Salvation was by grace plus merit faith plus works Christ

plus other mediators Scripture plus tradition and glory was going to God as well as

Mary and the Saints.

So the Reformers said no Having discovered the true gospel in the

Scriptures.

They said salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

According to Scripture alone all for the glory of God alone.

Yes in the.

And sometimes when I'm talking to Catholics or I get emails and I've right before we started recording I shared with you that I

got an email just this morning from Someone who has taken issue with what I've taught about the Roman Catholic Church, but

it's not that.

So Roman Roman Catholics Roman Catholicism would not.

Deny.

At least not in words.

They would not say oh, no, we're not saved by grace.

I mean they would say yes, we're saved by grace and yes.

We must have faith.

So they would not deny grace and faith at least not outright.

But they use some of the same lingo Mike.

They'll use the term grace.

They'll use the term faith, but they don't mean by those terms what you and I Would mean by those

terms, right?

They they add a meaning into grace, especially grace.

You were so right and I'm so glad you brought this up Justin because We really do have to

define terms when we're witnessing to Roman Catholics.

Yeah, because every Catholic believes they're saved by grace through faith in Jesus, but the word alone

becomes so important.

Yes.

But paragraph 20 27 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that Catholics must merit all

the graces necessary for salvation.

Well, how do you merit the unmerited favor of God.

And so Paul said in Romans 11 6 if it is by grace It is not of works.

Otherwise grace is not grace and you know that Satan Has all of these religions of

the world that teach you must do things to appease Their God, that's

right.

So Satan knows that if you add anything to grace Nullified the only means by which God saves sinners.

And so Roman Catholicism is no different from any other religion in the world.

It's a works righteousness salvation.

Catholics must merit and do works in order to be justified before God.

Right, if we add anything to grace any human work any human merit then you've redefined

grace and and grace is no longer grace.

So.

You may use the term but you've you've completely obliterated the meaning and redefine it so as to be

meaningless.

Well, when we look at the gospel of the Reformation We talked about the five solas.

Well the Roman Catholic Church when you look at their gospel what a Catholic must do in order to

be saved.

It really is amazing that they don't observe what Paul wrote in Galatians 1

verses 6 to 9 because there Paul was condemning with anathema the

Judaizers who wanted to add one requirement in order to be saved.

They said you not only have to believe in Jesus.

You have to be circumcised.

So Paul said let you let them be anathema.

Well, the Catholic Church teaches that you must be baptized.

That's necessary.

You must receive the sacraments to be saved.

You must do good works in order to be justified.

You must believe in indulgences to remit temporal punishment for sin.

You must believe in a purging fire of purgatory to purge away Venial sins and you

must obey the law in order to be saved.

Well that places them under the same curse as the Judaizers and so when we look at the Roman

Catholic religion we have to say that the clergy is under the same condemnation as the

Judaizers for preaching a Distorted gospel and so I hope your listeners

would recognize That the Roman Catholic Church is under divine condemnation and we need to

rescue Precious souls out from a church that is damned by Almighty God

for perverting the gospel.

Indeed indeed Mike.

And it's not that you and I tell people this too.

It's not that we hate Roman Catholics at all.

We love Roman.

You wouldn't do what you're doing if you did not have a.

Tremendous heart and burden for Roman Catholics, right?

That's so true.

That is my motivation.

In fact 31 years ago we began inviting Roman Catholics over to our home to

share the gospel of Jesus Christ with them and during a three -month period we saw

17 Roman Catholics exchange their religion for a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

And we never really set out to start a ministry but we saw that there was such a need to reach Catholics and

so.

What do you do with 17 new babes in Christ?

Well, you invite them back over on Wednesday night to help them grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord.

And so they began asking us to put things in writing so they could share with their family and loved ones.

And that was really the genesis of the ministry that the Lord has literally taken around the world over the last

31 years.

We stand in awe of what he's done because we're just a couple of broken vessels that

love Roman Catholics have a great compassion for Catholics who are where we were for so

many years of our lives and we want to see them saved.

Amen.

Amen, indeed Mike.

I don't know the answer this question specifically, but I know from Kathy's testimony

When she was a Roman Catholic as I said the first 30, 34, 35 years of her life.

She didn't she to her it seemed like just a an endless

hamster wheel if you will of.

You got to do enough works and even as an unconverted person in the Roman Catholic Church.

She still had that sense that she she just knew she couldn't do enough to earn her way into heaven

it seemed like just an endless helpless hopeless series of.

Doing works and you got to go to confession.

You got to confess your sins.

You got to say your Hail Mary say you're our fathers, you know, say however many I don't know the number

but the priest would say, you know, say 30 Hail Marys and 45 our fathers to and

so she would do it and this just kind of wrote thing, but but deep down she knew that this

this wasn't gonna get her into heaven and.

And it just seemed helpless to her did as a Roman Catholic, did you.

Did you believe that you were okay, or did you also have this knowing Doubt on the inside of you

that something here is not right.

You just didn't know what it was and did you know that you were unconverted or.

Tell us a little bit about them.

Yeah, it's.

First of all, the Roman Catholic Church does not give the promise of the gospel Which is

eternal everlasting life with the Savior.

Roman Catholics only have conditional life and I was aware of my conditional life.

In fact when I was still in the corporate world as a Roman Catholic I'd get on an airplane every Monday morning to go sell

computers and I had this great fear.

What if the plane goes down?

Well, I end up in purgatory or hell.

Yeah, it was not an option and so I understand Kathy's Situation being a mouse

on a treadmill around a wheel.

I've often said it was like being on a treadmill always doing my best to appease a holy and righteous God were

going nowhere right, so.

Now when I get on an airplane, I know if it goes down I'm instantly in the presence of my Savior

and that's because I have believed the gospel which promises eternal life.

But in Roman Catholicism You only have conditional life whether or not you get to heaven is based on whether

or not you die in the state of grace.

Which means you cannot die a mortal sin and it also depends on Whether or

not you receive the sacraments and you've obeyed the law.

So Roman Catholics look at God grading on the curve.

And so you're always trying to do your best.

I remember when I was a college student, I would go to church every day during Lent.

Because I felt like I was building up indulgences by going to mass and then my

sins.

Hopefully would not be as heavy as the indulgences that I was building up.

So yeah, it's uh.

It's a religion that is based on a false. Hope and that's why Catholics when You point

them to first John 513 Where John writes to those who believe in the name of the Son of God

that you may know that you have eternal life.

That is something Catholics don't know and so that really Is a great verse to start with

as we sit down and share the gospel with Roman Catholics.

Amen, amen.

Because they they have no assurance of their salvation.

There is no assurance in Roman Catholicism.

Talk to us that kind of reminds me talk to us a little bit about purgatory.

What is the doctrine of purgatory?

Where did it come from?

Is there any.

And we know the Bible doesn't support it.

But they surely they've got some verse that they try to take out of content.

I mean, they've got a they've got to hang their purgatory hat on something.

So talk to us a little bit about purgatory and and what the Catholic Church teaches about that and where it comes from.

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is an intermediate place between Heaven and hell

and if you die in grace.

But you still have unforgiven sins those would be venial sins and just to

Pause for a moment.

The Catholic Church has two different types of sin.

Mortal sin are deadly.

They send you to hell and they cause you to be dejustified.

And venial sins are lesser sins.

Mortal sins would be like murder.

Adultery or even missing church on Sunday would be considered a mortal sin.

Venial sins would be Say a white lie or stealing a small amount of money or goods.

Those would be punishable and purgatory.

It not to interrupt Mike, but I guess to interrupt.

Okay, so so run that by us again.

A moral moral sin if you die.

Having committed a moral sin and you have not yet received, you know Forgiveness from the

priest or gone to mass so missing church.

So if you're a Roman Catholic and you miss mass.

And then Later that day you die of something step out in the street get hit by a truck.

You go to.

You will go to hell because you miss mass.

Yeah, and you have to miss it deliberately purposefully.

Obviously if you're sick or something like that.

Then you have an excuse but yeah.

If you deliberately miss mass for no reason that is a mortal sin and if you die in that state You will go

straight to hell.

You know, it's interesting because when you look at the doctrine of justification the Catholic Church teaches

that an infant is justified at infant baptism.

And later on if he rose up and commits a mortal sin.

Now he is on his road to hell.

He must be rejustified by confessing to a priest doing good works

achieving enough merit to qualify to heaven again, and so When I was on a

cruise on the Pauline Tour in the Mediterranean, there was a Roman

Catholic priest on board and I approached him with that very statement.

I said is it true that a Baptized infant who commits a mortal sin later as

an adult would end up in hell.

He said yes, and I said, well, how do you explain Romans 830?

Those God justifies he glorifies.

Yeah, did you know what?

We just don't have an answer for that.

Now here's a Catholic priest who knows what the Word of God says, but rather than submit to its

authority He tells me we just don't have an answer.

And so That's what a mortal sin is.

It deprives you of grace it causes you to be dejustified and you

must be rejustified in order to once again have a right standing before God

and so Purgatory then is a place where people die without mortal sin, but with

venial sins and those are Taken care of through the fires of purgatory as a

purifying fire.

And no priest can tell you how long you have to spend to purify those sins away.

But this is the moneymaker of the Catholic Church.

The family will purchase indulgences normally in the form of a mass card.

They'll buy it from the priest and pay anywhere from 50 to 300 dollars write the name of their

loved one on the indulgence mass card.

The priest will lay it on the altar and offer up the mass the sacrifice of the Eucharist.

To get that person out of purgatory.

But he will not tell you how many masses must be offered nor will he tell you how many years you must

suffer for each sin so the Roman Catholic Is dependent upon his

priest not only in this life to receive the sacraments.

But even in the next life as they're suffering in this fictitious place called purgatory.

This has been a huge moneymaker for the Catholic Church.

In fact That was really the spark that ignited the Reformation the selling

of indulgences.

And a lot of the money went toward the building of st. Peter's Roman Catholics today

still rely on indulgences to get them out of this fictitious place.

Right.

Yeah for every coin into the coffer rings a soul from purgatory Springs.

That's an attributed Johann Tetzel Tetzel.

Yes, and and so Mike there's to this day the Roman Catholic Church still.

Does that right?

I mean they you still purchase Mass cards or purgatory

cards to get the soul of your deceased loved one out of purgatory.

More quickly.

I mean they may not use that little jingle that I just ran it off from Tetzel.

But they but they still do the same thing, right?

Yeah, in fact when my dear old dad died as a devout Catholic We went through his mail and we could not

believe the hundreds of indulgences that have been purchased For my dad to get

him out of this fictitious place.

And there's a verse 1st John 1 7 it says the blood of Jesus Purifies us from all sin.

Awesome.

And then Hebrews 1 3 when he obtained purification for sin He sat down at the right hand of the

Father in heaven.

So Catholics who will put their trust in Jesus will have all of their sins purified by his blood.

And these are the verses we need to share with Catholics because the truth is going to set them free.

If they're willing to submit to the authority of God's Word instead of their religion, you know, you

know Justin it might be good just to talk about a little the doctrine of

justification.

It really ties into what we were just talking about him and really

the Reformers Recognized that the Catholic Church had justification wrong that Martin

Luther said that Justification is the very hinge upon which the gates of heaven open and close.

He said if you get justification wrong, you get the gospel wrong, right?

So I think we need to start by defining what justification is and I think the

best way to define it is to say that Actually declares the inflexible righteousness of

God as a judge who must punish every sin.

That's ever been committed by every man and woman that's ever lived.

And the only way condemned sinners can be Justified is through faith and the sin

-bearing substitutionary atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ who satisfied

divine justice.

So anyone who wants their divine justice satisfied by Christ?

All they have to do is put their trust in him.

Repent of the false way that they were believing and put their trust in Christ.

And when you look at the doctrine of justification, I want to just share quickly how many different ways the

Catholic Church Perverts the doctrine of justification.

Yes, the Bible tells us it's instantaneous.

In fact, oftentimes you see a gavel coming down.

Symbolizing that when that gavel comes down The condemned sinner is now declared righteous because they've

received or the righteousness of Christ through imputation.

That's been credited to their account, but the Catholic Church says no, it's not a legal declaration by God.

It's the transformation of the inner person.

You become more and more righteous as you receive more and more sacraments.

So it's not instantaneous.

It's actually a process whereby Catholics grow and their righteousness.

We've already talked about the Catholic Church declaring that baptism is the sacrament of

justification.

But yet the Bible clearly says justification is by faith in what God accomplished in Christ.

How can a seven -day -old infant have faith and anything right.

And the Roman Catholic Church? teaches that Justification is increased when you do good works

and it's decreased and actually lost if you commit a mortal sin.

The Bible Says that Justification is permanent.

It's never lost by sin.

The legal status of a justified man is unchangeable as the righteousness of Christ.

And I love sharing Hebrews 10 14 by one offering.

He has made perfect forever.

Those are being sanctified.

We have the righteousness of Christ perfect righteousness forever.

Catholic Church denies that.

The Bible also says God justifies the ungodly Romans 4 5 but

Roman Catholicism rejects that Says you have to become righteous through

the changing of the inner man.

Justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness, but Rome says no it's the infusion.

And so you have to become more and more righteous the more sacraments you receive.

You can see why the reformers had to Re -establish the doctrine of

justification because the Catholic Church had perverted it to no end.

Talk to us a little bit more Mike about the difference between imputed and infused

righteousness.

Now, those are maybe some theological terms with which not everybody is familiar, but

there's a there's the difference between imputed.

Infused righteousness is the difference between Heaven and hell.

It's the difference between Being lost and being saved.

So drill down a little bit more for us.

You know Catholics believe in infused righteousness.

What's the big deal if they believe that as opposed to imputed, right?

What are these terms mean.

Wise wise that's such an important distinction.

Sure.

Well, the word imputation can also mean credited.

The righteousness of Christ is imputed or credited to the believers account such that

His account now is seen by God as perfectly righteous.

And I think the classic example of what this word means is found in 2nd Corinthians 5 21.

There we read Jesus who knew no sin became sin for us.

That we might become the righteousness of God in him and so by faith

Jesus Christ Receives all of the sins all of the guilt all of the

punishment of the believer.

They're credited to his account such that he bears our sin.

He dies on the cross bearing our sin and what does he give us in return his perfect righteousness?

When we say in Romans 5 17 that the righteousness of Christ is given as a gift To

those who will put their trust and hope and faith in him So sin is imputed to

Christ or credited to his account and his righteousness is imputed or credited to

the believers account.

The only other place the word imputation is used is when the sin of Adam is Imputed to the

whole human race.

And so that's why we're all conceived in sin.

We're born sinners and We've been Imputed with the sin of Adam

and the only hope for those who are born sinners is To receive the divine cure

and that's available free for the asking because of a love story Written in blood on a wooden

cross 2 ,000 years ago.

Yeah, so goes back to what we're saying earlier, even though Catholics may use some of the same lingo.

They do not mean by those terms what the Bible means by them.

And Justin if I could just say something else You know, we would call the Bible.

We call the gospel good news, but it's really the greatest news.

Anybody could ever hear yes, and the reason being is because.

In Roman Catholicism when you commit a sin after you've been Justified by your

baptism That affects your eternal destiny when a born -again Christian

commits a sin.

The Bible says that God no longer takes his sin into account.

Because he's become a child of God.

Romans 4 8 Paul says blessed is the man whose sin God does not take into account.

And then we see in 2nd Corinthians 5 18 that God is reconciling the world to himself

through Jesus Christ.

Not counting men's sins against them.

Amen.

I mean that is the greatest news.

Of course when you share that with Roman Catholics, I often hear Oh, so all you

have to do is believe in Jesus then you can continue to sin.

Well, no.

Titus 2 11 of 14 tells us that the grace that brought us salvation Teaches us to

say no to ungodliness.

No to worldly passions and to live a self -controlled upright life.

No, the fact that Christ died for me.

I want to live a life pleasing to him.

I want to turn from my sin and live a Christlike life all because of what he did for

me.

Yeah, indeed.

In Romans 8 1 right Paul says there is now therefore No condemnation

for those who are in Christ Jesus and and that does not fit within the Roman Catholic framework because

there there is still much.

Condemnation.

Within Roman Catholicism because of all these sins that you can commit and still suffer in purgatory if you

commit a mortal sin and you lose your Status with Christ all all together.

And yet the scripture could not be clear if you are in Christ There's no condemnation all of your

sins.

Judicially speaking all of your sins have been forgiven.

Well, just like going back to Kathy's testimony my testimony.

We could be be on the treadmill all of our life and have no hope of getting to heaven.

Yeah, because we never know.

If we died in a mortal sin or venial sin, by the way.

Where does a venial sin cross over to be mortal?

For example look at stealing.

They say if you steal a small amount, it's a venial sin.

Well, where does it become mortal?

Right?

I asked a priest that one time after I left the Catholic Church.

He said well, that's up to you.

You have to decide when it becomes serious enough.

I mean if it's up to me, I'm gonna rationalize I'm gonna say it's a venial sin, right?

So a Catholic is unsure.

Yeah, do they have mortal sins or venial sins and there's just really no hope there's no

Assurance and but that's why.

There's no good news in the Catholic Church.

You can do all of this all of your life.

Then.

What do you expect?

Purgatory for an indefinite number of years, right?

Oh, I know and I.

Sometimes when Kathy and I are on road trips will will turn on serious.

The Catholic Channel and I don't know if you've ever listened to that but but we'll listen to the Catholic Channel the

Gus Lloyd program.

And and.

A.

Front thing we're struck by how crass and vulgar they often are and just

it's clear that.

Maybe not everybody on the Catholic Channel, but at least some of the more popular programs.

You really have to wonder if they really believe what they say they believe because they're so cavalier

with with their own beliefs and Christ himself so cavalier and

demeaning.

Nonchalant, but.

When we listen to them and we listen to their priest Gus Lloyd and others and father.

Who's a guy in New York father?

Cardinal Timothy.

Cardinal Timothy, so we listen to him, you know, and it it's so convoluted.

Their their.

Theological framework with all of the menial and moral venial and mortal

sins and how you've got to go to mass and you got to do this and you got to do that and miss it.

What happens when you miss mass and.

It is so convoluted.

It's just this bewildering Gordian knot of Theology.

And if I was Catholic, I would never know.

I would never know where I stood with God.

Most Catholics don't.

Yeah, there's no assurance.

There's no comfort.

There's this great fear fear and doubt because all they have is a false.

Hope.

That's why it's so important that we reach Catholics, you know right now.

They've got a Pope.

Pope Francis.

Yeah, that not only has said heretical things against the Bible, but he goes against historic Roman

Catholicism as well.

Yes, there's a lot of conservative Catholics that are upset with this Pope.

I mean, he's denied hell exist.

He said that when a person dies, they just cease to exist.

He also says atheists will make it to heaven as long as they're sincere.

I mean, he says that if Martians landed on the earth and came to the Vatican He would baptize them

not in not even knowing that Christ had to become a man to save mankind.

He didn't come become a man to save Martians, right?

He doesn't know the Bible and so he's misleading Catholics.

Not only away from the truth of the Bible but away from historic Roman Catholicism.

Yeah.

And and before we started recording like we were talking I said this Pope.

I've kind of referred to him sometimes as the Joel Osteen of Roman Catholicism because he's just all over the map and he

seems to have no theological sinner at all.

But.

According to Roman Catholic doctrine the Cardinals get to get when they need a new Pope.

The Cardinals get together and they do their holy huddle and they are directed.

Infallibly.

By the Holy Spirit according to what they teach to select the new Pope.

So, you know.

And then they put out the white smoke or the black smoke or whatever to let you know whether or not they've come To a decision.

So if if the Holy Spirit is directing them infallibly to choose a new Pope How is it that they've got a Pope

now that directs as you said not only scripture, but even their own Doctrine,

how does that work?

Well, we know it's not the Holy Spirit and I don't say this to offend Roman Catholics but

the Roman Catholic Church is Satan's greatest counterfeit and I can look to the scriptures and I can

show that they are following doctrines of demons.

Just in the doctrine of venial sin goes back to the first lie that Satan gave in the garden.

Remember, he told Eve if she broke God's command that she surely would not die.

Well, that's what venial sin is.

You commit a venial sin you surely shall not die.

You only go to purgatory.

And so that was the doctrine of the devil.

And then you see in 1st Timothy 4 1 and latter -day stumbled apart from the faith and followed doctrines of demons.

Paul goes on to name two of them forbidding people to marry.

Yeah causing them to abstain from certain food.

Well, the Catholic Church forbids its clergy to marry and then for the longest time on Good Friday.

Couldn't eat certain food.

You couldn't eat meat and So, I mean we're saying this through the authority of Scripture that these

are doctrines of demons that the Catholic Church is practicing.

And so more than ever we hate we need to rescue Roman Catholics out from this religion.

That is really under divine condemnation.

And these are precious souls.

I mean the nature of deception is that people do not know they're deceived.

Until they're confronted with the truth and you and I are truth bearers.

What hope does any to see person have unless we present the truth of the gospel to them?

And many people are dying every day having been deceived and never even aware of it.

Because they haven't been confronted with the truth.

Absolutely.

So my.

We began by talking about the Protestant Reformation Five hundred and four years ago.

Clearly there was a need for it.

Where do we stand today?

With this divide supposedly between Roman Catholicism and evangelical

whatever that term means anymore nowadays.

Are are you seeing a Kind of a melding back together.

Is the is the Reformation still pertinent?

Are we still as evangelicals or Protestants?

Maybe I should say.

Are we still standing strong on the pillars of the Protestant Reformation or do we see a

Drift back to Rome, you know in a sense or is the Catholic Church getting any help from evangelicals?

Yeah, they really are and it really breaks my heart.

Because you would think evangelicals would understand the exclusivity and the purity of the gospel that

saved them.

But we've got many evangelicals that are actually Encouraging ecumenical unity with

Roman Catholics over the years.

We've seen some unity accords signed by prominent leading highly visible

Evangelicals daring to say that we share a common faith in the gospel with Catholics.

There are evangelicals that even say the Reformation was a mistake and right here in our home

Dallas Fort Worth area There is a pastor when John Paul the second died.

He gave this quote in his church magazine that really is very upsetting.

The rift that occurred between Catholics and Protestants 500 years ago is theological

pettiness.

In other words this pastor a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary is saying that the

reformers Were brutally murdered and burned at the stake for theological pettiness.

He went on to say we'll have plenty of time in heaven to figure out who was right about purgatory and Mary

John Paul was a man of God whom all Christians should admire thank and emulate

and so we have these evangelical pastors and leaders that are discouraging

Evangelism of Catholics.

Let me give you a couple of other quotes.

Pope Benedict when he resigned.

Robert Jeffers the First Baptist Church in Dallas said this.

The Pope was a wonderful dedicated Christian man, and we celebrate the ministry.

He's had.

Well, I know Robert Jeffers.

I've done conferences with him and I immediately Emailed him because this was on public

TV that he made this announcement, right said Robert.

How can you Say something that is untrue about Pope

Benedict, he said.

Mike whenever I'm in public ministry, I can never bash Catholicism.

I said that wasn't my question.

You could have told the truth what you chose not to do.

You could have remained neutral what you chose not to do or you could have misled people by telling

everyone that Pope Benedict Was a wonderful dedicated Christian man, and we

need to celebrate the ministry.

He had of shutting the gates of heaven to those who wanted to enter with a false and

fatal gospel.

If I may I want to say something in support of the allegation that you just heard from Mike Gendron towards Robert

Jeffers.

I have seen this myself from Robert Jeffers.

I listened to a sermon that he preached on Roman Catholicism.

It's probably been it's probably 14 or 15 years old or so.

And when you listen to that sermon.

He sounded like Mike Gendron, I mean he was solid against Roman Catholicism.

He rightly called it a false theological system that has a false gospel.

That does not save it only condemns it does not save use.

He was very very clear in his denunciation of the theology of the

Roman Catholic Church.

But now he's done a 180 complete flip -flop.

Why what caused that flip -flop?

Did he come into a different understanding of Roman Catholicism and or the teaching of Scripture?

Nope, he did a flip -flop.

He did a hundred and eighty degree turnabout.

Because he began to be invited by Fox News to come on to their network and be

a contributor and so once he got wrapped up in politics and Was a

regular contributor Fox News he had to he had to do 180.

Well, he didn't have to but he did.

And so he compromised the truth he compromised the gospel and now millions of people who

have seen him on Fox News and have seen him praise the Pope and praise Roman

Catholicism.

Shame on Robert Jeffress shame on him.

Yeah.

Well most recently this was a month ago.

Albert Moeller was interviewing a Roman Catholic archbishop by the name of Charles Chappute

on his radio program.

And he said Pope Benedict was one of the most brilliant theological minds of

our times.

Now now if you're not aware of Pope Benedict before he became Pope He was the cardinal that

actually authored the catechism of the Catholic Church.

That is so full of heresy.

It's so full of false Gospels all Scott and false doctrines.

And so what Al Mohler is saying is the man who is condemned?

With anathema.

By Galatians 1 6 to 9 for perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ Al

Mohler is calling him one of the most brilliant theological minds of our times.

Unbelievable.

And you understand why the average Evangelical does not know if the Roman Catholic Church represents a

mission field that needs to be evangelized.

Or if they're brothers and sisters in Christ when we have leading.

Evangelicals.

Distorting the truth like this.

It really grieves me.

Oh, it does it does Mike.

I know I've seen other things from Al Mohler that have been enormously troubling what as it relates

to Roman Catholicism that I have Not yet come across.

So that's news to me.

But that's you say that's recent just in the last few weeks the last month that is.

That's inexcusable.

Well, it is and I actually published the interview in my newsletter the October newsletter.

And anybody that wants to hear the interview and see and listen with their own ears.

You can go to proclaiming the gospel .org and look at the October newsletter.

And there you can hear the whole interview in its entirety.

Yeah.

Inexcusable.

Al Mohler knows better.

I mean, he knows better.

He knows your theology.

You know the most loving thing to do for someone if you see them in theological

error.

Significant theological we're in.

We're not talking here about who you think wrote the book of Hebrews or the date of the Exodus.

You know these issues between Roman Catholicism and biblical Christianity.

It's literally Literally the difference between heaven and hell.

The most loving thing to do is to warn people if they're headed to hell to warn them that that

they're in spiritual danger.

And I would say that what Al Mohler did and what others do who know better that is

that I mean, this is gonna sound harsh, but It's the purest form of hatred that there is.

It really is right, I mean.

How much do you have to hate somebody to know the truth and not tell them.

It discourages evangelism of Catholics when you make statements like that.

Oh totally.

And by the way, you mentioned the book contending for the gospel that I wrote.

The reason I wrote it was because There's so many evangelicals Compromising the Gospels

today for the sake of ecumenical unity with the Roman Catholic Church.

In fact just recently lifeway research Surveyed 1 ,000 senior

pastors evangelicals and Protestants and the survey said that two

-thirds of these evangelical pastors Say Pope Francis is their brother in

Christ.

And more than one -third say they value the Pope's view on theology and then he has improved their

view of the Catholic Church.

This is disturbing.

What happened to the Reformation.

Are they saying that we should have been united all these years and it was a mistake, right?

So anyway, that's why I wrote contending for the gospel.

We need to be aware of these things so that we can take a stand for the truth.

Because what's at stake the gospel of Jesus Christ the salvation of lost people?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

How many you know, how many people have given their lives over the centuries to

to To defend the truth to get the Word of God into the hands of people.

And as I say that you know When you look at the history, you might correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm pretty sure I'm not.

When you look at the history of the Roman Catholic Church its entire history at

least at least since You know the Middle Ages its entire history is one of

doing its dead level best To keep the Word of God out of the hands of people.

Is that right?

So right in fact at the Council of Trent Which is the counter -reformation? the

Catholic Church had to assemble all of its bishops to counter the Reformation and So it was during that

council that they put the Bible on the list of forbidden books.

I Know this is hard to believe but anybody can go to a bookstore or library Pick up the

Doctrines of the Council of Trent look under the list of forbidden books.

You'll see the Bible right there.

And here's the reason Justin they knew that these reformers were abiding in God's Word.

They were learning the truth and the truth was setting them free from the Roman Catholic religion.

So what does the Catholic Church have to do ban the Bible?

Because that's the only way they're going to keep their people and religious bondage and deception.

Yeah, earth was setting them free just like the Lord Jesus said in John chapter 8 verses

31 to 32.

Yeah.

And you look at 2nd Timothy chapter 2 verses 24 to 26.

We're to pray for those in opposition to the gospel that God would grant them repentance Leading to a

knowledge of the truth.

So they can escape the snare of the devil who holds them captive to do his will and the most powerful

tool.

The devil has to hold people and religious deception is indoctrination.

Yeah, your wife Kathy and myself the same testimony from the time we could think we

were Indoctrinated that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church and if you ever leave you'll go to hell.

That was ingrained in us for all those years.

Right, but it came down to do we trust God in his word more than we trust the teachings of our religion.

And that's the only thing that sets us free and gives us hope.

Yeah in the in the.

Yeah, it speaks volumes.

It really tells you all you need to know about the Roman Catholic Church that they have fought tooth and nail to keep the word Of God out

of people's hands because as you said the truth sets people free.

They know that and so they have fought tooth and nail to keep.

I mean How many how many martyrs can we name?

That have been killed at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church simply because they wanted to Print the Bible in

English and get it into the hands of people.

How many people have the has a Roman Catholic Church killed for that crime of wanting to get Scripture in the hands

of everyday people?

Well, I'm sure you're familiar with the st. Bartholomew Day Massacre.

Yep, and during that massacre the Streets of Paris were ankle

-deep in the blood of Saints the Catholic Church had put to death and that's

why France is a Non -christian country today.

All the Born -again Christians were put to death.

See the Jesuits were formed at the Council of Trent as well.

And they were formed to put away any opposition to the Roman Catholic

religion.

And so they put to death a lot of people that believed in the Bible that believed in the gospel.

Because they didn't want this spreading they wanted to hold people captive and so now you have a

Jesuit Pope the first Jesuit Pope in the history of the papacy and he's also

Willing to put to death anyone who stands opposed to the Roman Catholic religion.

And so we're living in very interesting times.

I believe we're close to the soon return of our Lord Jesus Christ and I look at this as a

blessing.

We may be the most blessed generation that's ever lived to be alive when the Lord returns for his church.

And so what we need to do is be about the Lord's business with a sense of urgency.

We need to share the gospel.

1 .3 billion Roman Catholics need to hear the gospel and come out of that

false religion so they can be True Christians born again by the Spirit of God by believing

the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Amen, amen.

Mike for and as I ask you this question I even have some people in my mind people I've talked to and

people I know and I hear this a lot.

Even for those folks who understand that Roman Catholicism is wrong.

They would say well my mom my dad they're Roman Catholics you know my

cousins or whatever that they're Roman Catholics and.

Yeah, they they don't understand the issues, but they love Jesus.

I just know they love Jesus.

They talk about Jesus.

What would you say to folks who have family members who were Roman Catholics who believe?

Who would say yeah, they're.

Understand that my family members my parents or whatever.

They're they're wrong on some things.

But but I just know even though they're kept I know they love Jesus.

What would you say?

Can you be a Roman Catholic and be a?

Real Christian, what would you say to those folks?

Only if you repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it's really interesting that you ask that question

because We hear that also.

Oh, I know a Catholic who say because they love Jesus and my response is which Jesus do they love right?

Is it the Eucharistic wafer? that has been Transubstantiated into the

physical body and blood soul and divinity of Christ according to the Catholic religion.

Or is it the one who sits at the right hand of the Father interceding for his sins?

Is it the one who died once for all sin for all time and there's no more offerings for sin?

You know.

Is it the one that we see in Hebrews 9 28 that he will return a second time and not in relation to

sin?

Now we have to look at the Eucharistic Christ as a false Christ.

Because by the authority of Scripture, he will return a second time not every day.

And the Bible tells us when he's going to return at the end of the tribulation.

How he's going to return in the same body he left with.

Where he's going to return he's going to return to the Mount of Olives.

And how he's going to return with great glory every eye will see him.

There'll be no doubt that the Lord Jesus has returned.

So by the authority of Scripture, we can say the Eucharist is a false Christ.

And Roman Catholics need to know when they bow down and worship that Eucharist they are committing the same sin of

idolatry as The Israelites did when they worship the golden calf as the true God that

delivered them out of Egypt.

And we know the fate of those Israelites.

God had 3 ,000 put to death and so more than ever Catholics need to come out and worship the true

Christ.

Yeah, in fact, that's the kind of worshipper as God seeks in John 4 24.

He seeks worshippers in spirit and in truth so you know our

whole ministry is dedicated to Providing resources for people like you've

described that want to see their loved ones saved.

We've got seven different gospel tracks and one of them is which Jesus do you trust?

Because it contrasts the Jesus of Rome with the Jesus of the Bible and there's some very stark

differences between the two in my book preparing for eternity, it's a great manual

for Evangelicals to study so they'll know how to witness to their loved ones

but I also read it wrote it in a way that is Something you can give to a Catholic it's written in the

spirit of love and truth.

And I contrast what the Bible teaches right alongside What the Catholic Church teaches and they have to

they're forced to make a decision.

Should I trust Christ in his word or the teachings and tradition of my religion?

It's impossible to believe both are diametrically opposed.

So I would encourage anyone that has loved ones and you're wondering how to reach them.

Remember two things.

Establish the Word of God as their supreme authority over bishops over traditions of the

church, right and that's easy to do.

I mean The Apostle Paul when he's preaching in the synagogues of Berea.

He notices his Listeners are searching the scriptures to test the veracity of his teaching.

You know if an apostle comes under that scrutiny and he doesn't get offended he commends them for doing this.

Shouldn't open your bishop and your priest shouldn't you and I come under that same scrutiny?

Absolutely.

Absolutely, but we have that and we also have mark 7 where Jesus deals with

people.

Submitting to traditions rather than the Word of God.

The apostate Jews were invalidating the Word of God for the sake of their tradition.

Mark 7 verses 7 to 13.

And so establish the Word of God as the supreme authority.

And then show that Jesus Christ is the all -sufficient Savior.

The Roman Catholic Church Denies the sufficiency of Jesus Christ to his

headship of the church.

They add a pope to his word.

They add their sacred tradition to his finished work on the cross.

They add the mass which is performed on an altar to his infinite and inexhaustible

Merit.

They add a treasury of merit that contains the merits of Mary and all the Saints.

To his purifying blood they had purgatory to his satisfaction for sin.

They have to satisfy their own sin to his high priestly office.

They offer the priest and to his role as the only sinless mediator.

They had Mary who is said to be another sinless mediator.

So establish Christ as the all -sufficient Savior that he is and establish his word as the

supreme authority.

When you do that, you'll want a lot of souls for Christ.

Provided the Spirit of God is bringing conviction and illumination.

Amen.

Amen.

The gospel is the power of God and the salvation for everyone who believes for the Jew first and also to the Greek.

And also to the Catholic who will put his faith is her faith in the finished work of Christ on the

cross.

And Justin if I could just say since she triggered my thought One of the miracles that took place when

Jesus gave up his spirit the veil Separating the Holy of Holies from simple man and the Holy God

was ripped open from top to bottom.

Yes showing that now through faith and the shed blood of Jesus.

We have direct access to God.

We don't need a priest offering sacrifices anymore.

So the Roman Catholic priesthood is Unnecessary, it's superfluous.

We now have direct access through the one mediator Jesus Christ.

First Timothy 2 5 there is one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus.

He's God's perfect man and man's perfect God.

Amen.

Amen to that line.

Thank you so very much brother.

Thank you so very much Mike.

Where can as we close here?

Where can people go to find out more about you.

Your ministry?

I say your ministry.

We understand what I mean by that the ministry to which God has entrusted you.

Where can they resources?

Where can they go?

They can go to our website proclaiming the gospel .org.

Or they can call us.

Our ministry number is eight one seven Three seven nine five three zero zero.

We answer all of our calls.

We respond to all of our emails.

And as I mentioned earlier, we have all of our archive newsletters on our website.

Along with all the resources.

I've written many articles that you can download copy and paste.

We want to be there to equip you to encourage you to be faithful witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not only in the huge missions field represented by the Roman Catholic religion.

But we have compassion and love for all those who are perishing.

And we've got many different resources to help you be faithful witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.

All right.

Mike, thank you so very much brother.

And this is good to have you on my channel and.

Lord willing would love to have you back home.

Well, it's a pleasure and a privilege.

Thank you so much for the opportunity To share the gospel through your podcast.

May many come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus for hearing the gospel today.

Indeed.

Thank you, Justin.

Thank you Mike.

Okay, dear ones.

Thank you very much for watching this.

I hope that this was an encouragement for you to you and Equipping for you as well.

And I know many of you watching maybe you are Catholic.

Maybe you have Family members friends loved ones who are Roman Catholic.

So I'll encourage you go to Mike Gendron's website proclaiming the gospel dot org and a

wealth of resources there too.

So that you will be equipped to speak the truth and love to your Roman Catholic friends and family members.

Okay until our next time together.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ the love of God and the fellowship of his Holy Spirit be with you all.