Is Social Justice Infiltrating the Lutherans?

Hey everyone, welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris, and we're going to talk about a denomination today, or actually a collection of denominations, but all under the roof of Lutheran.

I have not spoken about any Lutheran denominations, and so I think this is a great opportunity for those who are in the audience who may be

Lutheran and listening. I know there's at least a few of you out there to get a better understanding of what's happening in your particular neck of the woods.

And so to help me do this, I have asked Pastor David Ramirez from St. Paul's Lutheran Church in Wisconsin to help navigate this with me.

Thank you, Pastor Ramirez, for being willing to do this. Yeah, great to be on. Thanks a lot. And Pastor Ramirez is a

Missouri Synod pastor, and I'm going to put a link in the show notes for those if you want to listen to more of Pastor Ramirez after you listen to this particular interview, you can go to Godistine and find some of his interviews with that particular podcast.

So the link will be in the info section, and we're going to talk a little bit about the

Lutheran Church, the Missouri Synod, the Evangelical Lutherans, I don't even know what varieties are all out there.

So maybe you can help us, Pastor Ramirez. When we're talking about Lutheranism, how many denominations are we talking about here?

That's actually a good question, but probably a couple dozen Lutheran bodies are in America.

But the ones of most note are really three, not to dismiss the others, but there's three main

Lutheran denominations in America. The largest on paper is the

ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. And then just slightly smaller than that is the

Missouri Synod. And then about a third or a quarter of the

Missouri Synod size is the Wisconsin Synod. So those are the three big bodies in America.

So big picture, social justice, critical race theory, neo -Marxism, postmodernism, have any of these new ideas, really the products of modernity, have they impacted these denominations or is it a few of them?

Is it all of them? Yeah, no, it's really a big spread.

The ELCA, it's kind of funny to think about the Evangelical Lutherans being the liberal

Lutherans. I know that in the Reformed world and the Evangelical world, you think Evangelical and you think more conservative.

In the Lutheran world, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is very, very far left. I would say that they are absolutely taken over by what you call neo -Marxism and every type of social justice issue.

They've been liberal for a long time. They're a product of several mergers of old ethnic synods and other regional conferences.

And starting, I would say mid -century, they jumped on anything that was considered more leftist or liberal.

And so when you talk about if they've been affected, they haven't just been affected, they've been taken over by it.

So the statements that come out of the ELCA basically are nothing else than the most far left

Democratic Party talking points. And that's not an exaggeration. Whether it be climate change veering on Gaia worship or whether it's

CRT or any type of leftist or, frankly, Marxist talking points, they are going to repeat that even in their official statements and resolutions when they meet in assembly.

All their institutions are woke, definitely. So they're totally given over to that.

I mean, if you had to press me, I would not consider the ELCA even a

Christian church body any longer because they've been so infected that many of their pastors won't even use the name of the

Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That's how far they've gone. Yeah, yeah, that's incredible.

I know I had said to you before, but I know the people listening don't know, that I visited an evangelical

Lutheran church thinking that it would be more Orthodox recently. And the pastor had prayed that national boundaries would be taken away, that all humanity would be one, and that the

Lord would protect those living on the coasts from the rising oceans. And I just thought, wow, this is not what

I expected. So that makes sense of what I personally saw. My mom actually grew up in the

Missouri Synod, and that's the Synod I know you're in. How's the Missouri Synod doing? So the

Missouri Synod is a much more conservative church body.

We would call it confessional church body, linking our beliefs to the historic confessions of the

Lutheran Church contained in the Book of Concord, things like the small catechism of the

Augsburg Confession. And so we in the Missouri Synod still believe that the

Bible is the word of God, the literal word of God. We still believe in creationism.

We don't ordain women. We oppose any type of homosexual behavior, anti -abortion.

So the Missouri Synod is very conservative if you look at it across kind of the landscape in American, not just Lutheran, but American churches in general.

However, something that is very typical of Lutherans, and this is a positive and a negative, is that they're very conservative.

And I don't just mean conservative theologically, but they have conservative instincts. Lutherans usually are not quick to the punch on new things, which in fact can be a very good thing.

A new idea comes up, a new theory, a new ism, and there is kind of an intrinsic suspicion about it.

But also sometimes there can be a complacency about how is this going to infect or harm things.

And you add that into kind of your typical Lutheran niceness, so to speak. And sometimes the reaction to dangers doesn't happen right away.

So the Missouri Synod, I would say, it has been infected with some wokeness on the edges and especially in some institutions.

And I can get more into detail on that after we kind of do the big picture. But at the same time, the

Missouri Synod has shown a lot of pushback as well. So, again, you're not going to see many

Lutherans being the first ones to accept or denounce new things like CRT or the latest communistic or Marxist thing, because we are rather insular, to be frank.

And like I said, that can be very positive, but also that means the reaction is going to take a little bit longer, too.

The third body of Lutherans that is really worthy of note is the

Wisconsin Synod or the Wells, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.

And they used to be in fellowship with us, with the Missouri Synod. And I would say that the

Wells or the Wisconsin Synod, they have not had the same level of infection, even as the

Missouri Synod. And that's really because their institutions are still more highly populated by their own people.

And that that's a thing that I think that's really important about. How does this how do these ideologies or isms get into Christian churches, whether it be

Lutheran or others? Many times it is not first and foremost leaders from within the denomination.

But many times you have institutions like higher ed institutions, for example, where you have, quote unquote, outsiders who are allowed to come in and then they are the ones that wind up driving this conversation, wanting to bring in things from the world.

And because the Wisconsin Synod's institutions are they have a much higher percentage of Lutherans than than the

Missouri Synod at their institutions. That means the effects of wokeism or, you know, you use the term neo -Marxism.

A lot of those issues haven't hit them as hard yet, but it is hitting them.

I mean, they've been infected with some multiculturalism and and some some challenges to traditional

Christian doctrines. But it hasn't affected them quite as much because they they tend to be even more insular than than the

Missouri Synod. And and and I think that that's kept them from some of the strongest waves hitting them.

But it's coming, as you know, and I've listened to a few of your podcasts. I mean, this is affecting all of American Christianity across the board.

So I hope they get on their horses and start riding out to meet this stuff. In the Missouri Synod, we actually have had people very vocal speaking out against this.

I have not seen that from the Wisconsin Synod yet. But that's kind of the lay of the land.

You've got the ELCA, which is hard left. Like I said, while I would

I would definitely say there are still Christians within that church body, I don't think the church body as a whole can be considered

Christian anymore. And then you have the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Synod that are very, very close.

And that'd be a whole episode of in -house Lutheran stuff to talk about the differences. And you probably don't want to do that.

Well, you know, I watched some of your presentations. I'm assuming these were perhaps

Missouri Synod sponsored conferences. Is that correct? So you probably do you see the

Great Awakening presentation? Is that that was well, that one was, I think, on that Godistine podcast, right?

Yeah. So I did. Yeah. I'm thinking, though, more that like you were in a forum setting and there's people listening and you're presenting on like things like Romans 13 and how it's historically.

Oh, certainly. Yeah. So so. Well, what you've said was not would not be acceptable in a lot of denominations is all

I was going to say. And if that's something that's acceptable in the Missouri Synod, then that's kind of a ray of hope in my mind. Yeah.

I mean, in terms of talking about government overreach, I've spoken at, you know, official

Missouri Synod gatherings for that. I mean, not that the denomination has endorsed my particular statements or anything.

I don't want to go too far and say that that's not accurate. But but and so you listen to the

Great Awakening. I also gave that presentation at two gatherings of Missouri Synod Lutherans. One one recorded it and put it up already.

And so the both audiences on the on the on the

Great Awakening or the woke ism stuff. Ninety five to ninety nine percent of the people in there agreed with everything

I said. So, yeah, the Missouri Synod definitely does not just have complacent people who are accepting this, but they're ready to push back.

Which is a ray of hope. You had taken, if I'm remembering correctly, in that particular talk, you had taken to task this idea that race is just a social construct and you kind of rip

CRT a new one. And that would have not that that could not fly. I'm just saying in the

Southern Baptist Convention, almost you could not have delivered that presentation. I just don't think I don't know of anyone who would be able to successfully pull that off without having major blowback and people perhaps even in the room, you know, trying to clamor for the microphone to denounce the racism.

They just that's how they interpret it, which it would be totally off. But I found that encouraging that you're able to have this without an it wasn't emotionally detached, but it was a reasonable discussion where emotions weren't leading the way.

And the current moment and the media narrative weren't leading the way. That's just a rare thing.

And so I just want to I'll try to put those links in the info section for people if they want to go listen to those talks you gave that that that's a ray of hope in my mind.

Now, you are, like I said, though, like you said, in the Wisconsin Senate, what or the

Missouri Senate, rather, what specific things do you see? If you're prepared to get a little more specific on this, that could be potential threats in the future.

So I think that there's specific threats to the Missouri Senate, and I think all of this would apply to the wells.

Like I said, the LCA is gone, it's just gone. But I think there's specific threats, but also there's a more general threat.

And the more general threat is, is that not just Lutherans, but American Christians in general have confused the idea of being kind and loving and having a spirit of gentleness with kind of a detached from the word niceness.

And they think that that's a Christian duty, as if David was almost wrong for going out and chopping

Goliath's head off. I mean, he's defending his family. He's not supposed to be nice to Goliath.

He's got he's got duties to his people. And so it's right for him to mock an enemy of the

Lord and to kill him for the sake of his people. And I do think that in American Christianity, even

Lutheranism as well, there is this confusion with how do you be a good Christian with you got to be nice, you got to be accepting, you got to be nonjudgmental.

And that's the bigger attitude. Tightly connected with that is also the attitude problem of most

American Christians, if I can say that. I know it's true for Lutherans, but I think I can see it across the board, is that as conservative

Christians, very broadly speaking, that want to stand on the Bible, we have this conservative attitude where we're reactive.

I mean, to conserve presupposes that you are maintaining and trying to keep something that which is already established, safe and good.

Whereas we also need to understand that the culture as a whole, even many of the institutions of our different denominations have really gone over and we have to stop just thinking as conservatives.

I don't want to give up that attitude of cautiousness and trying to conserve what we have because we have been given much and much of it still stands.

But we also need an attitude that's aggressive, that's pushing back. You see the early Christians in the first couple of centuries, they don't just conserve what they have, but they're on the offense against the unbelieving

Jews and also the pagans. I mean, you see the apologists like Justin Martyr and other people.

They're writing letters to these philosophers. They're challenging them. Paul goes into Athens and he debates with the philosophers.

He goes into the synagogues, which, of course, that's a little bit more complicated because the church was built on the foundation of the

Old Testament church. But my point is, is that we shouldn't just be reactive against neo -Marxism or SJW stuff or wokeism, but we need to be aggressive because we should see in it that this is our old enemy of humanism, the elevation of that the human spirit just needs to be unleashed so it can be self -realized, which is really the devil's lies.

And we have to be aggressive against that. So that's the big attitude shift.

I'm sorry, go ahead. I just said good word. I was saying, preach it. Oh, sure. Gotcha.

You don't hear that in the Lutheran church much, do you? Preach it. You know, they don't. No, no, I don't think so.

You'll hear an amen once in a while. But more specifically, where in the

Missouri Synod do we see this infection? Well, we see it, I would say, in two places.

Well, three places, I guess. First of all, we see it in our higher ed institutions.

In the Missouri Synod, we have what's called the Concordia University Synod, Concordia University system, and it's a system of colleges all around the nation.

They originally were designed to train church workers, pastors, teachers, and other church workers.

Many decades ago, and it's a long story that we don't need to get into, they shifted their focus to being more traditional four -year colleges.

For a long time, they were primarily populated by Missouri Synod Lutherans or other Lutherans.

But especially in the last couple of decades, it's totally flipped. Now it's almost all non -Lutheran students.

And of course, with that, while you might make the case that this is an opportunity for evangelism and teaching people about the faith, it also brings in a lot of folks who have concerns that are not the concerns of the church.

And so we see in the Missouri Synod a lot of woke stuff all through our Concordia system.

And it's not that our Concordias and that our colleges are just a little bit infected.

But to get down to brass tacks, you see departments and professors promoting

CRT, bashing Western Civ. You've got diversity officers on almost all of the campuses now, incident bias reporting.

I mean, this is really bad stuff. All the worst of the woke stuff that's only come out in the last 10 years has heavily influenced a lot of these schools.

And if we don't deal with that, we're going to lose our colleges. And that's going to be really horrible.

Another front is the younger generations have been.

So, again, the Missouri Synod used to have a very high percentage of its people going to Missouri Synod Lutheran schools.

We've got the biggest school system after the Roman Catholics in America. Wow. Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's huge. So we've got all these day schools. And it used to be that almost all

Missouri Synod churches would plant a church, put a school right next to it. And so the school and the church worked hand in hand for the indoctrination, in a good sense, of the faithful to teach them the word of God and not go to government schools.

But now that has really shifted. And as generations have become a lot more enmeshed in the government schools, which not every government school or teacher is horrible.

I don't want to say that. But I mean, the government schools in America are just overrun with this stuff, as I know you well, you know very well.

And so you have a situation where our younger generations, like the millennials and the

Zoomers, have really been infected with this stuff. And I don't think that we have counteracted that as well as we should, especially when you compound that with our colleges starting to drift as well.

The third place I would say is that where wokeism is infecting the

Missouri Synod is among some of the younger pastors. You do have kind of a return to an openness to communistic, socialistic thought.

And the Missouri Synod went through a really hard period during the 60s and 70s. We actually had a split and it wasn't a huge split or splinter off, but we almost went the way of a lot of other church bodies during the fundamentalist controversy at the turn of the century, like Gresham Maychum and the

Presbyterians. They lost. I mean, that's why the PCA exists. So the

APC, because the PCUSA went bonkers. Actually, the

SPC, in their conservative takeover of the retakeover of the denomination,

I believe in the 80s. Yeah. Was that in the 80s? The resurgence, yep. Yeah, that was modeled after the

Missouri Synod conservative retakeover, actually. And so, I mean, you can read

SPC people talking about how the Missouri Synod winning back its seminary for orthodoxy really inspired them because that was the first time in American Lutheran history that a denomination that was veering to the left actually course corrected.

Unfortunately, we do still have some old libs, so to speak, in the

Synod that that pushed the radical stuff from the 60s. But unfortunately, there are some younger people, not just the kids, but some younger pastors who are into this woke stuff.

And it really is bad. There's a group in the Missouri Synod. It's just run by a couple of people.

I don't think that there's many people who actually are involved in it, but it's called Lutherans for Racial Justice.

And they have all the woke talking points. They try to baptize woke ideology or woke theology in Christian terms and explain it, you know, how these things can be understood biblically.

But it is it's woke theology with just a little icing of Lutheranism on top of it.

So so those would be the three places where woke stuff is is coming into the

Missouri Synod specifically. Regarding the it wasn't seminaries,

I guess colleges with seminaries attached, the Concordia system. Yeah, those are colleges that are not directly attached to seminaries.

We only have two seminaries. We have a seminary in St. Louis and a seminary in Fort Wayne.

I do believe that that the seminary in St. Louis does have that's where most of the guys who are influenced by woke stuff are coming from.

And I don't know all the details of who is promoting that there. However, I view a very good sign at the

St. Louis seminary. They have a new president who has spoken very firmly about Lutheran identity and our

Lutheran heritage. So I hope that Concordia Seminary St. Louis will get better.

So the problem at the seminary level is nothing compared to at the college level.

And I do have hopes that things will go better at St. Louis. Well, we talked briefly before about an individual at one of the colleges, then

Professor Schultz, who there's a situation right now. We don't have all the details of it, but I sensed in him some courage that he wants to fight what's actually happening at the college.

Do you see for me that was when I when I heard an interview with him and how much courage he had and directness he had.

Is that something that's rare in Missouri Senate or are most pastors a little more? I don't know if you have a sense of comparison here, but say compared to Southern Baptists or just a generic evangelical, you know, are

Lutherans a little more direct, a little more willing to fight, you think, on this stuff if they know it's in front of them?

I'd say yes and no. OK, I do think the reformed churches or the reformed tradition, whatever you want to call it, which would include in our from our point of view, would include

Baptists. Well, thank you. Well, I don't know if that's a compliment, but but but that that's

I mean, I don't know what what you guys I mean, there's this reformed continuum in our minds from Calvinists and Anglicans and Methodists and, you know, all the different types of reformed all the way to, you know,

Baptists and and and folks who are part of the, you know, the free church movements and things like that.

I mean, is that fair? Do you guys consider yourselves all part of the reformed tradition? Well, I mean, right now

I go to a more of a nondenominational Bible church. But yeah, I mean, we would we would have a

Baptist theology and I did go to a Baptist school and was a member of the SBC. And the church I was at would have considered itself reformed,

I think, more in the young restless reform vein, which has its it's certainly its weaknesses.

But I think, yeah, I mean, if you look at Southern Baptist history originally, like they were everyone was reformed.

Yeah. I mean, going back even before the Southern Baptist to just the general Baptist, they were reformed people.

But yeah, it's a weird, confusing like side show at this point with the people who are more

Arminian calling themselves the traditionalists, which they're really not. So it just it makes it so confusing.

But yeah, no, we would consider that there's a few people that try to trace back to Anabaptist, but it's like there really isn't a connection there.

So, OK, well, I would say that the so you asked in comparison to Baptist preachers,

I would say yes and no. I mean, Baptists, in my experience, especially

Southern Baptists, but also more liberal Baptists, they seem to be, again, quicker to the draw.

Lutherans do tend to sit back and wait before reacting. So in terms of Lutherans being brave,

I think that's the way you phrased it or being willing to speak out. I think that compared to Baptists, they're not going to do it right away.

They're going to want to wait and watch and look. But then once they get going, it's like a freight train. Like, you know, once they've once the die has been cast.

Well, I mean, like Martin Luther. Here I stand. Very German. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and the

Missouri Synod is incredibly German still. I mean, obviously we don't speak German anymore.

But in terms of just attitudes, it is it's very, I would say, old world.

Obviously, we're Americans now, but but there is that kind of old world understanding of you need to speak in your sphere and you're not just going to mouth off until you try to go through the right process.

But if it doesn't work, I mean, that's Luther, right? He tries to go through the Catholic hierarchy, the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

He tries to warn the pope. He naively thinks the pope's going to listen to him. But at the end of the day, when when when he's when he realizes if he's going to do the right thing, he has to do it against the hierarchy.

Then he does it. And I think that while definitely American Lutherans have very we've got

American traits and tendencies, just like all the rest of you, there is that that more old world,

I would say, German mindset of let's try to work through the process. Let's do it orderly.

But if it doesn't, then all bets are off. Let's do it. So I would say, yeah,

Lutherans are not as quick to the draw as Baptists or the Reformed in general, frankly.

But once they start moving, people will be very, very brave.

And you mentioned Professor Schultz and again, without getting into all of the details, which many of the details aren't even known or in public.

However, the basic issue there is, is that Concordia University, Wisconsin, which is only about 40 minutes from me, that's the

Concordia in our backyard. Everyone in my congregation, not everyone, but many people have very tight connections.

I mean, we view it as our local Lutheran college. There's been problems with wokeism there for years.

And I'm glad that someone with a lot more status and standing, so to speak, is speaking out.

Many of us pastors in the parish have been talking about woke ideology and theology and stuff for years.

But having a professor from inside being willing to take a stand on this and draw attention to it really is,

I think you said it well, it's very brave. And I really do hope that this moves the

Lutherans in the Missouri Synod to deal with it. I mean, what would be ideal would be that the denominational leadership looks into this, investigates it, and does a top to bottom kind of review of what's going on, not just there, but in other

Concordias. And I know that they have. I want to be fair. I don't want to trash our leaders because, well,

I think perhaps they could have been quicker to the punch and they could have done more sooner. I know they're concerned about this and they want to do good things.

And that's why you need just like on a football team, you need different players to do different roles. You need guys like Schultz who are going to go out and be the blocker, you know, and plow the way so that, you know, the running back or whoever can come in and actually get the ball across the line.

Right. So question for you, then, and that is encouraging to hear with the colleges specifically, they're not training the pastors, but what would be the threat then?

I mean, are they if they're kind of contained, but it sounds like they're not.

So Lutheran, so the children, I would guess, that grow up and want to go to college, that's where they're going to go and they're going to come back, bring these ideas.

Is that the main threat then to the church? So they are training the pastors in the sense that,

I mean, the seminaries train the pastors, but every college has a pre -seminary training program.

And the colleges are training a big chunk of our Lutheran day school teachers. We've got this day school system.

And so the teachers do not go on to seminary. They go to these colleges and not all of them do, but many of them do.

I mean, I think that is it heavily funded to these colleges by these churches in particular or are they financially independent?

Well, so that that's another issue because, you know, he who pays the piper, you know, calls the tune.

And in past years, the Synod funded almost all and then later a big, huge chunk.

And now the Synod does not fund much of the college, much of what the college does, even though Synod does loan a lot of money to the colleges.

And so as the colleges have gotten funds and funding from outside sources or purely, not purely, but more percentage wise from the alumni or tuition, especially tuition of kids that aren't

Lutheran, of course, their concerns are going to be wrapped up in that and they're going to want to need to look good to the world.

And and that, again, is is a big issue in terms of who has authority over them.

All the Concordias are, you know, the governance structure is that their board of regents have to report to the

Synod. So the Synod controls those colleges. But there is a movement afoot that that some colleges,

Concordia, Texas, just a couple of weeks ago, announced that they wanted to become independent and spin off so we could lose all of our colleges.

To go back to the ELCA just briefly, they used to have a whole system of colleges and they're all gone.

They're all gone because they let them either go independent or they let them go totally lefty liberal.

And then they just they splintered off. They allowed themselves to lose a great part of their heritage.

The Missouri Synod, for generations, we've called the Concordia system, you know, kind of, you know, some of our crown jewels.

And we're going to lose that heritage if we don't if we don't be real careful. I personally,

I wouldn't like to see any Concordia be lost. If all of them could be saved, they'd be wonderful. But I think the reality is, is that we probably will lose some.

Two have closed or actually three have closed over the last five years. We used to have one in Selma. We used to have one in Bronxville in New York and we used to have one in Portland.

They were all closed. Some of that had to do with, you know, financial challenges.

And some of them had to do with some of it had to do with, you know, being infected by leftism.

And and, you know, we don't have to write details. But I mean, this is a real this is a real danger that we lose them all.

I mean, I think that we will lose more. That grieves me, but I just hope we can save a couple.

What can people in the pews do about this? Well, I think that if they want

I mean, we we really are, interestingly enough, I don't want to be hyperbolic, but in the

Missouri Synod, because of what Professor Schultz has has written publicly without getting into all those details, the eye of the

Synod is on the Concordias right now. And they realize that that if we don't do something, it's we're going to lose what we've got.

And if people want to know what's going on, they should probably read a website called

Brothers of John the Steadfast or Steadfast Lutherans. And they have a series of articles on that situation.

They've been reporting on on what's been going on in the Concordias for over 10 years.

But right now, it's very interesting that it's not just a couple people talking about this.

Steadfast Lutherans has been talking about it for a long time. But now Godestine, that podcast that you mentioned, they also have a blog and a magazine that they're they're talking about this.

People are petitioning for Professor Schultz to be reinstated, and that's generated a huge amount of buzz on on kind of the

Lutheran Internet world. And so if people want to want to do something, I would say, number one, they should read up on what's going on at the

Concordias and Brothers of John the Steadfast site. You don't have to go very far to find all those articles.

The other thing is, is that they should ask their pastors what they know about it. And if the pastors don't know something about it, ask them to figure it out and ask them to educate themselves, because back in the 60s,

I said the Missouri Synod had this they were veering left and we almost we almost became a liberal

Protestant denomination. Why that got stopped was not just the leadership.

We had good leaders who did do good things, but we also had a huge amount of laity rise up and say, we do not want our church to be lost.

We do not want to let it go. We want to be faithful to God's word. We want to be faithful to our

Lutheran confessions. And and they kept up pressure. So and it's always got to be a team effort.

I mean, the lay people can't do it on their own and the denominational leadership can't do it on their own.

You know, pastors and people have to be walking together to to face the challenges of the day. And that's what they need to do.

They need to talk to their pastor. They need to ask him to inform them if he knows something about what's going on, you know, so that we because, again,

Professor Schultz and his writing publicly about this has really brought the attention of the Synod and we need action on it.

We need something to be done. So this beachhead of wokeism can be confronted.

Because if you don't stop it, it's just like an infection. It's going to go through the whole body and your church is going to change.

I mean, and you've said that the Southern Baptists have really been infected. I've only been watching this as an outsider, but they seem like really far down the road on a lot of this stuff.

Yeah, it's a big denomination. So it depends where you're looking. But the schools definitely, especially the bigger ones, are very compromised.

And the deceiving thing about the Southern Baptists, and I don't know if this is true in the Lutheran denominations, but they tend to I don't know if it's it's the

Southern hospitality thing or what, but there's there's kind of this code of ethics that, you know, you mentioned niceness, but that may be even ramped up more in the

Southern Baptists where there have to be a million qualifications and, you know, calling people brothers and treating them as Christians, even when they're blatant false teachers.

And so it's confusing because everyone wants to be in this cushy, moderate, miteral, reasonable way.

The church transcends the political distinctions. We were part of this kingdom of God.

And you'll hear a lot of talk about making these heavenly realities present here on earth.

So that one kingdom, I don't know how really to describe it, but that's usually how the racial reconciliation and the

CRT stuff, which is usually fused is couched. That's what we're doing. We're just making it like every tribe, tongue, nation in heaven.

And so there's these talking points that go out that sound super spiritual. And a lot of the folks, even in the seminaries who are teaching, will adopt these talking points.

To what extent is it believed? To what extent is it a party line? To what extent is it just this fake unity that they all have?

It's a little hard to determine. So so I would say that at the very least, what's happened is that those who are false teachers, legitimately so, they have full access to teach, to survive, to flourish in the

Southern Baptist Convention without opposition. And that would be the concerning thing I'd have for other denominations, including the

Lutherans, is that, you know, that that's that kind of culture doesn't emerge there where in the name of being nice and tolerant and having a fake unity, you don't allow these false teachings to just have their way.

Well, we're definitely infected. I mean, I from my outsider perspective, watching the

SBC, I don't think we're as far down the road, but you're absolutely right.

Well said that that if you just play nice, you're going to lose. And I was down in the

South for four years and I used to hear people say, you know, the 11th commandment in the

South is thou shalt not be ugly. Yeah, yeah. And that's not

I mean, whether it's thou shalt not be ugly in the South or if it's Midwestern niceness, which really

I mean, Lutherans are very Midwestern in terms of percentage and everything that that's not going to that's not going to cut it.

And that's why, you know, before I think I used the word humanism, I mean, that really is what we're facing across denominational lines is this humanistic ideal that that we really should understand is nothing other than the devil, because the devil lies and he tells us, you know, whatever thou wantest, right, you know, whatever thou wilt is good.

Be your own God. And the devil trying to, you know, puff us up on our own pride has resulted in every type of utopianism, every way of I mean, you were talking about making heaven on earth.

Yes, of course, we should strive for making the world as good of a place as possible.

But if we actually believe the lies of the devil in terms of creating a heaven on earth,

I mean, that's every bad humanistic movement that's ever been around.

I mean, that is what is so dangerous. And of course, we as Americans are very susceptible to this because we always talk about equality, frankly.

I mean, obviously, equality has a place when speaking theologically.

God has God has redeemed us equally, right? I mean, that's

Romans. I'm not Romans. Galatians 328. You know, there's neither June or Greek male or female slave or free.

That's true in terms of justification, but that doesn't erase all the distinctions between people.

And I mean, I mean, a partial lie that that's dangerous. I mean, the devil wants us to just self -realize and we need to understand, no, we're not trying to make a heaven on earth.

Right. Yeah, excellent. That's very well stated and couldn't agree more. And I would just add to one thing, if Lutherans are listening, because there may be a few of you who you've never heard this podcast, but something came across your news feed or your

YouTube suggested videos where you saw, hey, there's Lutherans talking about wokeism.

I haven't seen that before. One thing I would caution Lutherans is because this is where I saw it in the

SBC, this and it can be vague. It can be it can sound good.

But this idea that doing the work of the gospel somehow entails eliminating disparities.

And there's a connection between these two things. So going out and being a gospel people, gospel center, gospel above all, you know, exercising the gospel in society somehow means that injustices must be rolled back and disparities must be eliminated and people must be equal.

That seems to be where it starts. And it's so subtle. It sounds so good. So except it goes against what we would call as Lutherans, the ninth and tenth commandments, thou shalt not covet.

I mean, I mean, you know, sure. I wish that I was taller or stronger or richer, you know, or I mean, we could wish a lot of things.

But that that's the antidote to wokeism to actually trust your heavenly father and be content with what he has given you.

That's right. I mean, injustice is wrong. But just because God gives different gifts and makes people different ways and gives them different resources or riches, by definition,

God in creation creates distinctions and disparities that's built into creation. He separates the light and the dark.

He moves the land and the sea. You know, I mean, it's God's all about distinctions.

God's all about this multitudinous, diverse creation that's built on differences.

And if we want to just destroy differences, that's just going to be the monotony of hell. I mean, that, you know, that's like C .S.

Lewis, you know, his screw tape letters, I assume. Yeah, I've read. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he talks about that there.

But yeah, I mean, fundamentally, I think that you're right.

It sounds so appealing. And yet we should see the the iron fist under the velvet glove.

Right. Do you know, I'm a big fan of C .S. Lewis. He's got a few issues from a

Lutheran perspective. But have you read his space trilogy at all? I haven't. I've heard of it, but I haven't really.

I would really encourage that hideous strength is the third book. And he literally talks about how, you know, this this organization, the nice and I see, you know, they're very seemingly polite, wonderful people, but they want to they want to take over.

And underneath the, you know, the velvet glove is an iron fist. And that's what we as Christians, whether we be

Lutherans or Baptists or non -denom or whatever, need to realize that woke ism is not just an ism.

It's a it's a religion. And it's and because it is telling devilish lies, there's demonic power behind it.

You know, it is evil. It is teaching us not to trust in our heavenly father, but to try and create heaven on earth.

I don't know if you guys follow a lectionary. But in the Lutheran Church, it's we just had the first Sunday of Lent and the reading was

Matthew four when Jesus is tempted by the devil. And the last temptation is the temptation to forego the cross.

And it is here you bow down before me. You can have all the nations of the world, you know, and that's what

Jesus wants. Right. You know, yeah, the devil wants him to bow down to him instead of trust his heavenly father, walk the road of the cross.

Instead of that, the devil says you can have that, but you don't have to have the wrath of God poured out on you.

You don't have to walk the road of suffering. You don't have to bleed. You don't have to die. You don't have to be in the garden.

You know, you can have you can be the lord of the nations as long as you just do what I say, as long as you obey me.

And that's the power behind woke theology. It's not just an ideology.

It's it's devilish. So, yeah, I'm bringing in. Excellent. Yeah, I'm glad that you're you're you're wanting this conversation to go on because American Christianity has fallen like dominoes on this.

Well, I've lost friends to it, and I think that makes it more personal. I've seen people ripped up to shreds.

It's the off ramp from Christianity. Honestly, people start to realize, hey, wait a minute.

That church that I believed was so pure and good for the last couple of centuries or sometimes they'll say even 2000 years, it's it's been wrong.

It's been unjust. It's contributed to burning witches and the Crusades and slavery and all the rest.

Right. And so, you know, you mean to tell me that up until two seconds ago now, it's suddenly pure.

I mean, no one would join the Ku Klux Klan because they said, hey, we're not racist anymore. Come and join us.

We've reformed. Right. And so when when the church paints this picture of where this horrible institution up until two seconds ago when people started realizing social justice is right, it just causes young people who have half a brain to leave and they can get more activism in the

Democrat Party or any of these NGOs or civic organizations so that they don't have to be part of a church to exercise that new religion.

And that's that's that's one of the things, you know, when you when you start to see, as I warned before, for Lutherans listening, this it's gospel work to promote equality or something like that.

You'll often see a complementing of organizations that are supposedly doing gospel work.

And yet there's no gospel. You know, it's these leftist community organizations. They're doing really good work for the gospel.

You'll hear a little. I have a number of clips that I've saved of pastors complementing organizations that aren't

Christian, saying they're doing good ministry or something. And it's like, you know, that's there's no gospel there, though.

So it's I think what you said is spot on. It's demonic. Final just thoughts, if you have any, and then if you could just remind people,

I know you said Steadfast Lutherans, Godistine, and then if you want to plug anything else, go for it.

Yeah, I think that Steadfast Lutherans is the one stop shop for news on the

Concordias. I think Godistines has provided a lot of good commentary.

Their podcast is just really wonderful. It's not just focused on on woke stuff.

I mean, it's it's more focused on Lutheran liturgical stuff and theology in general.

But they have had some excellent programs recently about this woke threat.

But the most important thing I would say to any, not just Lutheran layman, but anybody who's who's listening to your program is that read the scriptures, talk to your pastor.

The devil wants you not just away from the word of God, but away from the word of God in community with other people, in a real congregation, at a real church service, at a real

Bible study. I mean, that's why I think we should see the assault on the churches, not to get into a whole nother topic, but an assault on the

I mean, all of the all of the mandates from the government. I'm not going to try and judge people's hearts about all the mandates that came down during the coronavirus stuff.

But I mean, that was also a demonic assault on the church to drive us away from hearing the word of God.

And so, you know, the woke stuff is dangerous and people need to they need to read the scriptures.

They need to be at their church. They need to be talking to their pastor because the devil is like a lion prowling around.

And lions go after the weak, the ones that are stragglers, the ones that aren't running with the pack.

And that's what our enemy fears. He fears us listening to the word of God and he fears us creating those brotherhoods where the word of God is strong and therefore we can stand firm.

So, yeah, people in their own denominations, especially Lutheran's listening, should go to these places and learn.

But more importantly, read the word of God, stick together and be in community with one another.

Well, thank you, Pastor David Ramirez. Some of those links will be in the info section for people. If you want to check out more from Pastor Ramirez, as always, when

I have a guest, I just want to say thank you for taking from your busy schedule. I mean, you're a pastor, you have,

I'm sure, tons of things to do, and you've sacrificed your time to inform people who aren't even in your congregation.