Seb Goldswain, Big Brother Announces His Rulership, Leighton Flowers Goes Full-On Pel

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Greetings, welcome to the Divine Line. Irony of ironies, our opening number is not from our our guest

00:41

We'll have to But could have been I suppose Actually from our that opening is from north of us

00:51

That's from up in Canada, but way way way down to the south and at 11 o 'clock at night We are joined from South Africa now

01:00

Sam I've got to ask you if you're okay with the fact that I've been describing you as the

01:08

Jazzy Segovia of South Africa. What do you think about that connection? Is that is that is that okay? I think it'll do

01:15

I think it matches the the name that we have for you down in Durban I don't know if you remember that the the great white

01:24

Yeah, yeah, well we know where some that came from but Yes So I am joined by Seb Goldsway Sebastian That's a that's what is what would your your mom say to you when you were in trouble?

01:39

What what did she call you? She gave me or she'd give me all the syllables full Sebastian.

01:45

Yeah. There you go, Sebastian Maybe a few extra syllables Just to make sure you knew you're in trouble

01:52

Yeah, we all we all had that when we were kids you were a kid a whole lot shorter time ago than I was however, as everybody can tell but so on was it

02:03

Sunday evening, I think I I caught that you were doing a Live Facebook thing because well, you're sort of like More in jail than we are here in in the

02:18

United States. Would that be a good way of putting it? I Well, I'd put it like this

02:23

I've been out of my house twice in the last three weeks to go shopping and that's it We're not allowed to leave our houses at all at all.

02:31

So you can't go you can't go for a walk No You you can go to the shops to buy supplies and if you work in essential services

02:40

Then you're allowed to go out but apart from that you have to be in lockdown. So essential services would not include performing on the guitar

02:51

I Think they should but So now you obviously you travel around you do a lot of performances like that, but do you do any teaching and things like that a little bit mostly on Skype these days, so Yeah, I bet carries on as normal, right?

03:09

Right? Yeah, I could imagine. Yeah, because My son did some guitar studying with Jason Truby if you're familiar with Jason Truby Yes from POD, yes, yes.

03:21

Yeah. Yeah, and that was done by Skype too. So I guess that's that's that's pretty cool So how long have you been?

03:28

strumming that that that instrument I Have been playing since I was since I started high school.

03:36

So I was 13 years old So that would be 15. I've been playing for 15 years now 15 years now.

03:42

So So it wasn't so you weren't a child prodigy, but it was just something you you decided to you know

03:48

Pick up and and and do or or did it sort of capture your your attention or what?

03:54

So so that that's a that's a funny story. And for that I thank my my mother.

03:59

It's all her fault I I went to I started high school. I went to a boys only boarding school and I went away for two weeks

04:07

I wasn't allowed to have contact with my parents and when I came back my mother had bought me a guitar and said well I thought you might want to start guitar lessons

04:14

And I said no, thank you, but she'd already bought the instrument. So I thought well I'll start it and do the lessons for a month or so to keep my mother happy and well

04:24

Guitar got very cool and mathematics got very boring very quickly. I think So child prodigy or teenage rebel, you know somewhere right somewhere there leaning towards the second.

04:34

That's all right Are you indicating that it may have had some? Negative impact upon your scholastic studies possibly

04:41

Possibly yes Yeah Okay, so when did it become, you know your your passion though?

04:50

I mean around then did you when did you know that this is what you were going to be doing? I it was about My just before my last year in high school, especially in South Africa.

05:03

We don't have much of a music industry so people tend to You know, the the prevailing mindset is that you can't make money doing music and you either have to make it very big like you have to be like Bruce Springsteen big or otherwise, you're never gonna make it right and The school

05:20

I was in had a very very good School choir and so we we traveled to Austria to go to the

05:25

World Choir Games and we won three gold medals and a silver medal and we competed against 5 ,000 other choirs from around the world and just to see so many people doing music and seeing you know like how joyous music is and You know just what a big infrastructure there is

05:43

Across the world was very very influential for me and it was then that I decided That even if I can't make it

05:48

I'm gonna try I've been stuck at it ever since so So you already committed yourself to a life of poverty.

05:56

So the lockdown is just sort of more of the same Oh, it's it's what I've been waiting for my whole life Yeah, but was your wife waiting for that her whole life is the question

06:07

Well, I gave her I gave my wife Bless her. I gave her a very stern talk on like the second date we ever went on I said just so you know,

06:14

I'm a musician. This is this is how things go. So she's She's been well prepared for it

06:21

Now it was sometime in 2018. I was I was there right was that Do you remember

06:28

I think it's 28 I forget when it was It might have been 2017 might it have been really?

06:36

Yeah, I think so. I think it was the first first year of my marriage. Yes. So 2017, I think okay

06:41

All right. Yeah, because I don't remember if you were married yet Yes, I just just just got married.

06:48

I just gotten married. Okay, and so I spoke at the church Do you have do you do music there?

06:56

Are you on staff there? Yes, I'm on staff. I'm the music director at my local church

07:01

Hillcrest Baptist Church. Okay, and that keeps me very busy So it's kind of like 50 % that 50 % the performing career,

07:08

I think okay except Down there in South Africa Churches are cannot meet either, right?

07:16

No, definitely not right, right so That keeps you because I do say you came to the

07:24

US Did you come to us recently or were you're going to be going to the US you came to us recently? Yes, I went to Nashville and Mobile, Alabama in August last year for the the sync conference with the with the

07:37

Gettys Oh, okay. Okay, so you've been to Nashville. What do you what did you think of Nashville? Ah James it was it was heaven on earth

07:45

For me It was absolutely phenomenal and and people probably went oh what a wonderful accent you have you just sound so smart

07:56

Yeah, where are you from? New Zealand New Zealand Australia England anywhere from there, right?

08:02

Right, right does not not probably didn't guess South Africa is one of the first first Options there, but you did you get to perform there and and you know jam with people a little bit

08:14

So I got to play at Christ Fellowship Baptist Church in Mobile, Alabama Where my my former pastor has just taken over.

08:23

He's just been installed as the pastor that would that was Steve Lawson's old church Oh Down in Mobile.

08:29

Yeah, so he just settled in. I think they've been there for five weeks and We were going to the state so they had us down and I led the worship on one

08:37

Sunday Oh, well, that's that's neat to get an opportunity to do that I hope we get to do things like that in the future.

08:44

I'm not a hundred percent certain these days, but We will enjoy it all the more if we do have the opportunity of doing so in the future

08:52

How would you how would you describe? How would you describe what you do because you obviously do some

09:02

Classical sounding numbers, but you also do a lot of jazzy type stuff. I mean, what are the major influences?

09:10

I wouldn't even know where to begin. I just I steal from everywhere and everything I mean I grew up playing classical guitar and then

09:16

I fell in love with rock and roll and with blues and then I Decided I had to make some adult decisions in my life when

09:23

I finished high school So I had to do a degree and the choices were classical or jazz. So I chose jazz

09:28

Okay, and so my formal study is in jazz and I do Chad Atkins style finger picking now

09:34

So that all just you know from Jimi Hendrix to Chad Atkins to Segovia just Meshes together in whatever

09:41

I come up with I think Well, I did find out someone if you if you were listening when

09:48

I announced when we were talking back and forth earlier in the week and Came up with the idea of having you on someone sent me

09:57

Something from the internet that indicated it was March of 1981 That Segovia performed at Arizona State University and that's what

10:06

I that was my senior year in high school I graduated in June of 81 So I did get to see him and we were only about three rows back in the

10:15

Grady Gammage Auditorium, so I saw the master at work. He was in his 80s and was still just Just utterly amazing.

10:26

You could sort of tell though He was he was very hunched over from all of those years

10:33

Having his arms around a guitar. So may I suggest some kind of maybe rowing?

10:41

Some type of some type of thing where you're pulling you're pulling back because At 80 something he was he was rather round And it was because of that those shoulders just over that guitar for all those hours

10:55

I can't imagine how many hours Segovia spent hunched over a guitar Yeah, it doesn't help with computers these days so I'm either hunched over a guitar or hunched over a laptop, that's right

11:07

Yeah, yeah, I would I would do some back exercises if if you because you're young right now

11:13

But trust me after about 45 and then especially 50 Stuff starts hurting and you can't eat you that's that thing is you can't remember why it's hurting

11:22

It just it just starts and you don't really know what to do about it So so now tell us about this super duper guitar you were talking about on Sunday.

11:31

What do you what did what you got there? well, so this is a I have yeah, this is a brand of guitars it's called a

11:41

Loudon and these are kind of boutique snobby guitars made in You should see acoustic guitar snobs are

11:51

They're a different level they talk about woods and all sorts of things that I can't keep up with and sure this is one of those one of those guitars that belongs in that echelon of Guitar collectors,

12:01

I think except I use it as a piece of state as a piece of stationery. I suppose and so my local sponsor

12:08

It was very kind to Basically hook me up with one of these I played I played one of these and I absolutely fell in love with it so Loud and lots of great finger style guitar players like John gom

12:21

And Pierre been susan. I think lots of modern finger style guys who play steel string guitar play play these and These are absolutely very very special.

12:30

I love it. I love it to bits and so that's when you when you when you say finger What do you mean when you talk it when you when you spot talk about finger style?

12:40

So it's it's playing with the fingers But usually in conjunction with a pick or a thumb pick like these and it's a much more modern type of percussive

12:51

Finger style type of playing with a guy to hit the guitar and stuff as well as pluck the strings, right?

12:56

Right, it's yeah, it's very different to the traditional classical style of guitar I suppose so it's so strumming like I was see

13:03

I actually took guitar in my senior year It's one of the reasons I wanted to see Segovia Don't ask me to play anything

13:10

But I did get to the point where I could I was playing some fairly complicated Classical stuff, but I didn't keep up with it once I got into college.

13:18

So that's that's that's just nice memories, but But that I would like to see yeah, but I but I've definitely noticed when

13:28

What would you say? It was like a little mini concert you did before I spoke at the church, or I don't know

13:35

You did a couple of different numbers Right. Yeah, so the event that you spoke at was an outreach event.

13:41

So it wasn't for the church people. It was for the right for the community and so I think

13:47

That they they kind of, you know sent out the clowns to entertain the crowd Before the spirit of the serious speaker came and so that was me and Two numbers to calm everyone down.

14:00

I think I have no idea why I remember this But I just remembered what

14:06

I ate before I spoke there Okay, what was that?

14:11

Well, it was one of the very few times and I mean very few times in all of my trips

14:17

South Africa I've been gone to South Africa a lot a lot of times It was one of the very few times.

14:23

I actually ate at a Kentucky Fried Chicken Yes, that's right. I remember that and you called it a

14:29

Kentucky you asked for a chicken sandwich and no one had no any idea Yeah, I don't

14:34

I don't remember how that happened but they just call it KFC down that stands for Kentucky Fried Chicken Doesn't anyone ever ask what

14:41

KFC stands for? I don't know. We yeah, we're good with that. But it we call them burgers

14:47

So so a sandwich a sandwich is like between two pieces of bread The people were going to the back saying how do we make a sandwich for this guy, you know

14:58

Well, that happened to me and I happen to be in Glasgow Scotland, too I asked for at a

15:03

McDonald's for a filet of fish sandwich, and it's fillet in Glasgow They had no idea what

15:09

I was talking about Some some nice lady had to serve I think he means fillet and it's like, oh, okay

15:15

Sorry about that, but that's what happens when you travel, but there you go. So so anyway, so I just like watching here's the problem though riches or some way to turn the bug off Be because it's right over his fingers and I can't see what's going on So if there's some way to kill the bug we have this out, you know

15:35

The alphanumeric ministry is saying down along the bottom of the screen And so it's right in the middle of the of the of the guitar.

15:42

So that's that's why I'm trying to get involved We got it. We got it. We got it.

15:47

We killed it. It's out of the way So, okay One of the things I was gonna say is I noticed and this must vary from good target guitar

15:55

When you were playing before I spoke there were a number of times you would flex the guitar

16:05

You mean like like yeah, you were you you were flexing it to create a some kind of a sound issue

16:17

So obviously that's gonna vary from guitar to guitar there's gonna be something very stiff aren't they

16:23

Yes, and the the the prevailing sentiment with that is don't try that on a Chinese instrument because you'll break the guitar so basically

16:30

The idea is I grew up playing electric guitar. I grew up playing a

16:36

Stratocaster so I'm used to having a whammy bar where you can depress the strings and lower the lower the the pitch of the string so you get like a

16:45

You know like a you the pitch drops and goes back up and with acoustics you don't have that but I still wanted the sound so I saw

16:52

I Saw a guitar player from the Netherlands once a great jazz guy. I can't remember his name

16:57

But he Antoine Godesmith and he had a vintage Gretsch guitar and he would push the neck forward and push the body back

17:04

Which is really bad for the guitar, but it sounds great. So you You know like that that kind of thing you're basically bending the neck so that's why they say don't try that on Chinese instruments and Don't Chinese virus

17:20

Right Long life if you do that, I Hear you

17:26

I hear you. All right. So now how many how many albums have you have you done so far?

17:32

I released my second album The road ahead in May of last year. Okay.

17:37

All right, and I saw the first one because I'm trying to remember.

17:43

Did you come to a debate that I was to how did we how did we hook up? Help the old man out here

17:51

You were debating I you've Kareem on the divinity of yeah, the divinity of Jesus in the

17:58

New Testament. Yes, and It was that was a fun evening and sat on the left -hand side about two or three rows back.

18:06

That's it. Uh -huh and at interval You came down and you to chat to some of us who'd come to the debate, right?

18:15

And I had a CD to to give you because I because I did thank you in the liner liner notes of that album

18:21

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's right. I knew I knew about the liner notes I was just trying to remember how

18:26

I had gotten hold of it and had to be down there in In the Durban area and you've and I have done

18:33

I think three Debates down there now in that in that particular area.

18:38

So that was the first one that we did Yeah, because the second one was the crucifixion one.

18:43

So yeah, okay. All right there there we go Was I wearing a bowtie that night?

18:48

Oh, yes, you were. Okay. All right that that helps that Helps wouldn't put us in in the in the in the realm there.

18:55

So so you were there supporting me and then we at some later trip we arranged to do something there at the church and And that's how that all worked out.

19:06

Okay, it's and I organized you a concept to robot. I remember that That's right. That's right in the little place that I stayed at Yeah, that's right.

19:15

I remember going for a run there and stuff like that. I don't remember exactly where it was, but Couldn't do that now

19:23

No, no, you'd get a five thousand rand fine and maybe go to jail five thousand rand fine

19:30

Wow What's that? What's that? Three three hundred dollars odd. I forget what I don't know what the transfer rate is right now, but it's

19:37

It hit 19 19 ran to the dollar last week. Oh, that's not good for you guys.

19:43

It's it's bad. Yeah. Yeah. Well Yeah, so so anyways, so you

19:49

You have a wide range of Musical styles. What would you what would you like to to show off?

19:58

I Will play my I think the first one I'll play for you is a song that I composed two weeks ago, so Yeah, I I had a strange incident a guy so like I told the story to some people and they said that's hectic and I Haven't realized how hectic the story is but a guy pulled a gun on me in a shopping center two weeks ago.

20:18

Oh goodness yeah, and that he was he was so panicked by the by the the lockdown and You know, he just had no sense of what to do with his life

20:30

And so he he walked around and he showed me that he was carrying and he said would you like a bullet?

20:35

And I said, no, thank you, sir. And then he said well, would you put one in me? And I was like, no Yeah, so it was quite something in the experience

20:45

The experience, you know, it inspired me. So I wrote a song so I would I'll play that for you guys now. Okay, cool

23:10

So, what do you call that I Haven't got a name for it yet I'm not sure.

23:15

What do you call a piece of music that you write after an experience like that? there must be

23:21

You know, I could understand a tremendous amount of hopelessness Right in South Africa to begin with.

23:29

I mean, I've I've ministered in the townships of preached in churches In in Tembizi and and and other of the townships which people in the

23:40

United States have a hard time Even comprehending, you know the nature of some of those places

23:47

I Tried to explain it to them and the closest thing I can do is try to see if they've seen

23:53

District 9 the movie Which was shot in Soweto And go that's actually

24:00

Soweto. That's that's yeah, that's what it's actually it That's what it looks like and they're like no, that's like no there as far as the eye can see that's that's where people live

24:09

And so then lock them down to where they cannot work. They cannot move Wow, I can certainly understand why there's a tremendous amount of What would you call it panic or despair or what would what would you call it?

24:26

Definitely there has been huge amounts of panic. There's been lots of panic buying I think the you know, the toilet paper thing that is lots of people have been buying too much toilet paper here as well and empty fridges

24:39

Food food sections in department stores are totally empty Well, not they have been empty for for no good reason because the shops just fill them up again

24:48

So there has been some panic and yeah, a lot of a lot of hopelessness and a lot of Defiance as well.

24:55

I think from people in poorer areas they they to an extent view that the government has let them down by The circumstances that they live in right and so they say well

25:07

You know the government we're here where we are because of what the government's done And now the government's locking us down and they sending the army in to enforce this

25:15

And so we've lost our jobs because of the government and the government aren't you know aren't helping us out and so we're just not going to listen to the

25:24

To the lockdown orders. So a lot of news footage you see the townships look more packed than ever So instead of it being them being empty, they actually are fuller than ever

25:34

Yeah, so well, yeah, cuz a lot of people I'm thinking of I don't remember the name of the road that goes to Pachis room from Johannesburg But it goes past a lot of the township areas and a lot of those people would travel out and work in mines and stuff

25:49

Like that, which I imagine are not operating right now And so they're just stuck where they were but you you can't you can't stay inside a corrugated

25:59

Iron hut that this roof is held on with with tires all day long. It's it's not gonna be yeah

26:05

I mean, I'm comfortable where I am. We're very comfortable But but to have five people in you know, a little room right where they sleep is impossible

26:15

Well, not only that it's a really really really good way to pass a virus around. That's that's the problem with all of that So that's if there's one way you're going to pass the virus around.

26:25

That's how you do. That's how you do it That's exactly right. It is it is absolutely amazing to me. What's what's going on all around the world, but Yeah, things are changing.

26:34

So I don't I'm not sure what maybe we'll have some folks suggest some titles for you Because I hate doing when people ask me

26:44

I speak at churches what's the title of your sermon? I'm like, I have no earthly idea that is never ever something that I've liked coming up with It's like well just put the scripture passage and we won't worry about it.

26:56

And it's like, oh, that's really boring But no, what can I say? So yeah, so so that's the kind of acoustic If I say

27:06

Tim Snow, have you ever heard of Tim Snow I have not This is so weird he did one album and it was

27:16

Incredible and then poof like like beamed off the planet I mean if anything proved men in black is true

27:22

I think I think he was an alien beamed in did his thing and went back to whatever galaxy he was coming from Very What you just played would have a lot of similarity very very similar tonal qualities to The stuff that he did if you ever get a chance to track him down that one album

27:43

It was it was it was just really really really good. That's the kind of stuff that I like You know

27:50

Jason Truby so, you know that he does a wide variety of stuff too and So I've put together like I have a mix of your acoustic stuff and his acoustic stuff

28:02

And that's what I listen to while writing or working on stuff Because it's some of the only music that I can listen to that's not gonna get in the way of the thought process in essence

28:13

Is is how it works. I'm not sure how you design that kind of thing I'm not

28:19

I'm sure you would recognize, you know in light of what kind of chord progressions you're doing or whatever

28:26

The kind of music that you can listen to while thinking and the kind of music you can listen to well You don't want to think you want you want to be totally taken over by the music

28:37

But yeah that kind of I don't know how to describe what you just play But that's that's right in the in the wheelhouse of the kind of stuff that I listen

28:45

I'm listening to almost all the time when I'm working Okay, yeah, yeah, so so but you have other styles don't feel like you have to do that You have you've done a lot of you were doing a number

28:58

Okay, rich is rich is raising his microphone and when rich raises the microphone, that means rich wants to talk

29:03

So yes, right. Well, I am I have to say that I I was moved by you mentioning

29:10

Chet Atkins Because where I grew up Chet Atkins Jerry Reed flattened scrubs

29:20

Those kind of guitar men Were were the kind of things

29:26

I was exposed to growing up and I just oh Why am

29:33

I drawing a blank on his name? Oh He was tremendous. It'll come to me in a little bit here, but You know those kinds of influences

29:42

I can I can just hear even in that one piece Yeah, Chet Atkins Jerry Reed are they they're some of my biggest heroes

29:50

I love those guys and especially Jerry Reed if if your listeners haven't ever checked out Jerry Reed. He was the most phenomenal

29:58

Human being I think he he came up with these genius guitar compositions Which which are impossible to play and he would like just figure out how to play them and then he passed him on to Chet Atkins so Chet Atkins could record them and make them famous and He wasn't so he liked thinking them up and was too lazy to learn and to play them, right?

30:16

I'm thinking of There were there were three guys that were on when

30:21

I was growing up. Hee -haw. Hee -haw. Yeah, and The one guy he had the long sideburns.

30:26

Yeah, I know. I know here I can see him And he was just a tremendous guitar player. Let alone a singer

30:31

Milt Travis You think of Merle Haggard Milt Travis, I'm not familiar with him.

30:39

It'll it'll come to me here. It's but I'll pipe back in a little later here Someone did come up with a suggestion for you a

30:49

Song title from Philippians 4 -8 whatsoever things are whatsoever things are so that Micah Micah and Twitter said whatsoever things

30:57

So in other words, what sort of things are honest true. Just pure lovely. It's from Philippians 4 -8 is

31:04

What he what he suggests I thought I'd pass that along as a as a suggestion

31:14

Right, I just I looked it up Roy Clark was Incredible I'm just looking at some of the things on YouTube here.

31:22

One of my favorite all -time songs is yesterday Yeah, okay yesterday Please don't do that Anyway He was just as but as a guitarist, he was tremendous

31:34

You can also play banjo real well to Foggy Mountain breakdown and stuff like that. Yeah, so he was he was he was really good so, um

31:43

We've kept you for quite a while already. What do you what what else? What did you want to share with us? As far as the styles go because I you were doing something on the

31:51

Facebook thing That was making your fingers move a whole lot faster than than my fingers can move.

31:56

So I Well, so so Jerry Reed and Chet Atkins were very influenced by a great great guitar player by the name of Milt Travis and Milt Travis was a really cool dude from the from the 50s big cowboy hat big white guitar and a thumb pick and He was the coolest cat around and so I could play you

32:21

I could play you a Medley of songs by Milt Travis, I suppose or whatever you're whatever you're up for Okay Get this guitar nice and out of tune for you

32:37

Okay, how do you do that How do I do that? Well, I thought there was only one way to have it in tune

32:45

Well in fairness, this is all I do every day. So If I didn't know how to do that, there should be cause for concern.

32:52

Okay. All right. Okay I'll so I I'm just warning you.

32:58

I'm wanting you guys to hit I'm gonna sing in this one. So apologies in advance Hey, I'd rather have you doing it the rich Looky there's a fellow mighty lucky by the way, he makes a good time

33:31

Hanging around sitting around a country store. He's picking up chicken. He's a picking up corn every cow

33:36

In the county does a little shimmy and the feet start to wiggle and wag The feet stop moving do the shuffling drag every time they hit the rhythm of the guitar

33:45

He gets a moaning tone He gets a moaning

33:50

When he gets the beating and the plucking the strings Well, he can make a deacon lay the good book down all the fat and skinny and they do a little shimmy and the feet

34:00

Start to wiggle and wag Stop moving shuffling drag every time they hit the rhythm of guitar

34:47

I I Was watching rich he was watching those fingers going now now if someone tied your foot down would you be just left?

35:59

Incapable of doing it. I I don't know but I wouldn't be as happy doing it. I Would imagine so yeah

36:08

So I do seem to recall that your foot was was moving fairly fairly well during the during when

36:14

I was there live So yeah, it's sort of like asking an Italian person to speak without moving their arms.

36:20

It's just not gonna work too well, right? And also, you know James sometimes when you're in a big stage, it gets lonely up there when you're playing solo acoustic guitar.

36:28

So Any energy I can give off to people that makes me feel less lonely.

36:34

Oh sure. Sure. Yeah, you bet you bet so Now when we we put this up I'm gonna include a link

36:43

You have I think it's a either PayPal or patreon or both, I'm not sure which but obviously

36:50

It's pretty tough to be a performer and locked in a room That's one of the reasons we wanted to let people know now is are your are your albums on like?

37:01

iTunes and stuff like that. Yeah, they're online Everywhere so Apple Music Deezer Spotify if you just look up Seb Goldsman, then both my albums come up.

37:10

Yeah. Okay. Yeah good So if people seen you there one last thing real quick the state of You know,

37:19

I I haven't had a lot of contact. I've been keeping in contact with Rudolph a little bit I've had but I and and Adrian down there in in Durban a little bit on on Facebook Everybody's just you know locked away doing their thing

37:34

But the state of the church in light of its Inability to meet are most of the people trying to stream.

37:43

Is that tough for people to do there? what's how are you all handling the lockdown as far as worship and instruction and and ministering to the people right, so in In my church,

37:58

I think in in Hillcrest Hillcrest is quite an affluent area So in lots of the lots of the communities of believers that I see they've taken to the the live -streaming thing pretty well

38:12

So lots of churches have hopped fully on to live -streaming services and you know having prayer meetings on zoom and home groups

38:21

Cell groups Bible studies, I suppose on on zoom so they've taken to it pretty well, I think so in our church

38:28

The big challenge has been trying to get old folks onto platforms so that they can do content so we're uploading content every single day

38:37

So I do I do like a hymn sing once a week Well sing sing through some hymns with Brittany my wife and interact with comments and stuff like that And it's a way of trying to pull the church together

38:48

But there's no there's no doubting that That folks are I mean, we've been locked down for three weeks now.

38:54

So the churches haven't been allowed together They had like a Social distancing rule for two weeks before that.

39:01

So I think this is now five weeks four or five weeks of no church No church gatherings. So we're really feeling it and really missing it and They extended the lockdown by another two weeks.

39:12

So So it's a lot of people are starting to you know Get a little bit get a little bit too anxious.

39:19

Yeah So so is there so what's the what's the date that they're giving you now down there?

39:26

So well today was meant to be April the 16th was meant to be the day that the lockdown ended and they've extended it by two weeks until the end of April So what's that?

39:36

The 20 29th of? April pending further Extensions.

39:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah pending further extensions. Yeah, we were facing similar situations here though we do have

39:50

Far more freedoms far more freedoms than than you have in South Africa, unfortunately so so I won't ask you to predict the future because that's not something that any of us are really all that so all that good at But I know that South Africa has always presented a whole host of challenges to Evangelical Christianity that is very difficult for people in the

40:16

United States to even begin to comprehend But it would seem to me like music might be almost a universal language that allows you to get past a lot of the

40:27

Barriers that exist, I mean, you know, obviously tremendous

40:34

Divisions in history between whites and blacks and Indians And of course then you have people coming from other nations in Africa that and there's all sorts of divisions and strife there

40:46

It's um, it's a really really really challenging place to try to create a unified body and yet I've been in so many churches where that's exactly what what does exist and and that's been really great for me to be able to see that and Appreciate the foundation upon which it's which it's built.

41:07

Do you see the church coming out of this? Changed Damaged What what do you think

41:18

I think the true church will flourish Exponentially, I don't doubt that I think like in speaking in our local context

41:27

A lot of people are really really beginning to see the value of the local church in their life now that they don't have it

41:33

Yeah So I think amongst true believers, it's probably one of the biggest blessings our generation is ever going to have

41:41

In terms of so as you would know a lot of South African Christianity, I mean it's influenced by and mixed with a lot of African traditional religion, right?

41:52

So so that's it's a huge complicated mess of worldviews that are mixed together and I don't even

42:00

I don't even know how those kind of guys are handling the over 19 How they how they're handling with the lockdown.

42:06

I don't imagine it would be good and then there's the prosperity Churches that's huge America's biggest export to South Africa.

42:15

I think is the is the prosperity gospel. Sorry about that. I Think it's equally from America and Nigeria.

42:22

Yeah, and yeah, and I I just I I mean It's same as the the the

42:28

American guys. I think they have nothing to say in a situation like this they they prove themselves false over and over and over again the more they the more they talk and So I hope that for the

42:39

Mega churches where people gather to have their ears tickled now, they can't gather and by having services online

42:45

They'll realize what's the point in even going to church? so I think that this will have nothing but a good effect in terms of refining the church well churches churches that are actually preaching the whole

42:56

Council of God and That that council is not dependent upon The economic situation and political situation and things like that.

43:04

I might I'm just concerned I mean South Africa's political climate is not a healthy one to begin with so unfortunately, you give a

43:16

Already corrupt government more power and they don't like letting go of it. And that's that's a concern all around the world

43:22

It really is so we will continue to pray for you guys down there and for your church there

43:28

I really honestly like you said, I I think once you've visited a place as many times as I have you sort of get used to it

43:38

I mean, we're just gonna do a quick hop down in May. I was gonna be going to Joburg and and Cape Town You know all that got got nixed, but I will definitely take it as a as a greater privilege the next time if I get a next time and If we get down to Durban, you know what the last time

44:03

I was in Durban you were you were traveling you were out of country if I recall correctly

44:10

Yeah, yeah because Yeah, cuz I I did get to preach there in In in Durban, but we weren't able to do anything because you were you were gone

44:22

So we will hope that that can change in in the future. So And we'll pray for your your church down there and for you as well and keep on picking and grinning and strumming and writing and Let us know what you name that name and try to you know, the guys with the guns.

44:43

It's best to avoid them That's if possible Yeah I mean you gotta go to the grocery store, but still

44:51

Groceries groceries guns. I'm not sure they go together real well. So yeah All right, we'll let everybody know how to get hold of you

44:58

Seb and thanks for joining us today and Thank you wife for letting you stay up so late. I will do it.

45:04

Thank you for having me This has been a real privilege and like it like a dream come true. So, thank you indeed. All right. Thanks a lot

45:09

God bless you. Thanks. All right. Bye. Bye. All right. That was Seb Goldswayne from South Africa and hey

45:16

We've been we've been doing a lot of super super serious stuff And I I think a lot of what we were just talking about was serious in that sense

45:23

But I mean heavy and so a little bit of picking and grinning That is one thing.

45:28

I wish I had been able to keep up with Was was guitar. It's it's beautiful, but there's only so many things you can you can do and I think it's one of the reasons

45:39

That I really enjoyed getting to know seven Getting to listen to him and stuff like that.

45:45

I mean, he's extremely talented as you can see and When you see people who can do stuff that you wish you could do

45:52

I mean, I just love watching the the Fingers moving and flying and doing all that kind of stuff.

46:01

That's That's just a lot of fun. It's it's great. So so there you go

46:07

Seb Goldswayne from out just outside of Durban. I remember when we first I first went down there for that trip

46:13

We had a dinner together at a at a fairly nice restaurant it is that is a nice area

46:20

Sort of it's sort of up Durban is There's a couple nice areas in Durban Last time

46:29

I was there which Trying to remember when it was but I think sometime in 2019 maybe must have been

46:37

That's when I went running along the beach and ran into Jehovah's Witness in the dark Remember I told you told that story you wouldn't changed on me

46:47

And So There's that's down at the right the beach beautiful area of always the sunrise.

46:57

There is always I'm just incredible But then you go up you obviously have to go up from there and you go up into some foothills and that's out where Seb's church is where he does music and and that's where we did an outreach an outreach night and I ate at KFC, which

47:16

I try to avoid doing there are KFC's Everywhere in South Africa.

47:22

It's our major export to in that and heretics we Between the word -faith movement and KFC.

47:29

That's the biggest thing we've exported to South Africa. I mean literally they are Embarrassingly popular

47:37

Far more than even McDonald's down there KFC is everywhere. It's just Astonishing and I just I just haven't really wanted to trust

47:48

KFC in South Africa. It's just not been something I want to do. So anyways good times hope to get to do it again someday hard to hard to say because Big brother has arrived folks big brother is with us big brother is all around us

48:07

I Don't know if you saw the article this morning about how Facebook is now They just must not have read the book

48:17

I Put some I put some some screenshots up from the movie the most popular movie.

48:23

There's been more than one There was a BBC version back in the 50s BBC did everything back in the 50s There's a Luther BBC one and and also stuff.

48:31

But anyways, the version of 1984 this month must not have read in 1984 because they are

48:37

Just following a little so we had the Facebook vice president of Integrity The vice president of Integrity who applies for that job who applies to be the vice president of integrity at Facebook That's what

48:57

I want to know he Was interviewed in an article to where Facebook is.

49:04

We know Facebook's monitoring everything they've got their AI their algorithms going their

49:10

AI going and they're searching through everything you're posting and They have a

49:17

Specific perspective on Coronavirus that is now going to be the official perspective

49:23

Well, it needs to be the official perspective of everyone. We all need to be on the same page We need to believe what big brother tells us and so and so they're they're marking stuff.

49:33

Not only they're deleting stuff When a when a meme starts floating around about three days ago

49:41

That said those of you who are Reporting on people who are

49:49

Going for a walk in the park or whatever if you're reporting on your neighbors You did the right thing and it's got a picture of Hitler and it's the right thing re

50:00

ICH you did the right thing They they were putting people in Facebook jail

50:06

You were you were banned from from doing that for daring to think that Well, I haven't taken the time to queue it up yet, but I will

50:18

Because I have the 1984 movie If you remember the film with Winston And the rundown

50:27

Place that he lives in you remember at the beginning he goes to help this family that has some kids

50:36

Because their drain is stopped up and nothing works and the lift doesn't work and and stuff like that because that's how

50:42

Socialism works is nothing works in socialism. That's the whole idea and The kids are these frightening little urchins who are

50:57

Looking at everybody and they're ready to accuse you of thought crime. I'll bet you he's a thought criminal

51:04

I'll bet you he's thinking about stuff that we're not supposed to think about and Part of it is just thinking about what would it what would it be like to live in a world?

51:17

where you have people like this that are Just look, you know, they're they're just looking who can

51:23

I who can I snitch on who can I call a big brother on? And you're afraid of them

51:29

Because you don't you don't want to be reported on you don't want to have to Because in those systems, it's not innocent until proven guilty.

51:38

It's guilty until proven innocent and So as long as the accusation is made you're in deep trouble and so you just have to live in constant fear of this type of accusation against you and I just think of those kids as I as I see

51:58

Governors and mayors in the United States setting up phone lines if you think someone is doing something if you think people are getting together and Playing Yahtzee, and there's there there's it's not there are not all the same people in the same family

52:16

Call this number and we'll give you money. It's like Okay, they're

52:24

Who's gonna start the canonize Orwell movement 28th book of the

52:29

New Testament cuz man, I'll tell you he nailed it to the to the floor Scary scary scary stuff.

52:39

So so big brother is Big brother is going to seek control through Technology, that's the one thing where I'm sitting here going, you know

52:53

I it's we need to know how the early church dealt with things and how Christians have dealt with with Technic with with persecution in the past, but the one thing that is different now is the presence of an all -intrusive technology

53:13

You have satellites you have cameras Our phones are a tremendous mechanism of Tracking, you know, we can use them we who today can drive across a major city

53:31

Without using their phone. We've all become dependent upon it. There are only a few of us who remember

53:39

You know when I was a kid We'd go visit my my grandma every every summer and we ordered something from triple -a called triptych triptych and It was a map, but it was

53:53

Where you would Go like this So it had each Separate little thing as you would go the map you'd go follow the map down this way then go to the next one follow

54:02

The map down this way you had to be able to read maps. You had to you had to use maps That's how you Knew where to be turning

54:10

Right, and then of course you had the fold -up maps which never folded back up properly to begin with Yeah, we used paper maps and You'd pull over the side of the road and you'd be sitting there looking at the map and I think we missed our turn but who knows and Well, yeah.

54:28

Yeah, you're driving then that then there's no that that that was that was called suicide, but But who can do that anymore we love the ease of These devices but these devices if they if if we're using them to track ourselves know where we are anybody else can too so this tech the the rollout of More and more technology more and more observation.

54:56

We are We already know what it looks like in China We already know that there are cameras everywhere you go facial recognition

55:05

They're following you remember two years ago two years ago on this program.

55:11

We talked about how the social credit scores in China so you're you're walking through a grocery store and They are looking at what you put in your cart and you get positive points and negative points too much booze negative points

55:33

Diapers for your kids positive points Hoarding toilet paper negative points possibly execution, which

55:41

I'm not sure any of us right now would have too much of a problem Including the guy down.

55:47

Did you see that story about the guy down in Australia that tried to return? 5 ,000 rolls of toilet paper and the owner of the grocery store gave him the bird

55:59

Yep Yep, yep. Yep. Hey if you're sitting on 5 ,000 That just figure you're never gonna have to buy it again, but nobody's buying it from you.

56:10

Mm -hmm. Nope Oh, yeah, you bet as well.

56:16

They should as well. They should all those people that did that stuff What I don't care you're stuck with it.

56:23

Good luck. Hope you like toilet paper You might might as well start doing some artwork or something with it cuz cuz no no you

56:30

You tried to you tried to profiteer you get stuck with it. You're that's that's all there is to it but anyway, the point is

56:39

Big brother's here and big brother is going to do what they're doing in China and So we've been talking about this in China for years going won't happen here

56:53

You're going into stores today in certain parts the United States and you can't go into certain parts of the store

57:00

Because that's not required stuff to purchase You want paint your house? Sorry Can't paint your house during the lockdown.

57:08

You can't you can't buy paint So so the governor in fact the governor of New Jersey was on with Tucker Carlson last night

57:18

And that was a study in how to never ever ever answer the question that you're asked

57:23

I mean that there must be some place you go to be trained in how to move your lips and Produce sound without ever answering the question that you're actually asked

57:36

That's that's what politicians are all about And that's what he did.

57:41

But that was the whole idea Was yeah, we're gonna lock everybody down we're gonna arrest people to stand on the beach and we're gonna do all this stuff because of Something that has nothing to do with the question you asked

57:53

This is what people are doing. It's happening in Michigan. It's happening all the place are people pushing back

57:58

Yeah, they are pushing back. But what's the what's the what's the meme if you push back?

58:04

You're a heartless terrible person that wants granny to die a horrible death. That's the whole idea and that is

58:13

How you then start doing the we need trackers on people we need to use your phone to see if you've been exposed because it's all for your safety and Here's where I want to make a connection and you're also don't talk about politics go back church history.

58:29

Okay, listen There is a reason why?

58:35

The church has had such freedom in the United States There's a reason and it's been forgotten it's been forgotten

58:46

Yes, we know not all of founding fathers were Christians Some of them were deists had some of them were just rank heretics like Jefferson Got you every single one of them clean the deists were deeply

59:01

Influenced by the Christian worldview and the Christian view of man Specifically a

59:09

Christian anthropology that recognizes the evil that resides in the heart of man and so The founding fathers felt that in light of the fact that they had been abused by royal power

59:28

They were not going to just set up another system of abuse So because they recognized that Centralizing power in the hands of a sinner or a group of sinners is going to encourage evil

59:52

They divided the power of government amongst different branches and provided safeguards of balances between the branches why

01:00:05

Because they recognized it is not smart to concentrate power in the hands of evil men

01:00:13

There are no evil men anymore We've abandoned that worldview.

01:00:18

There are no evil men anymore You may shame somebody But have you heard anyone?

01:00:26

meaning anyone in positions of leadership meaningfully saying the

01:00:33

Chinese Communist government and Xi himself are evil men

01:00:41

You heard it all the time World War two Hitler is an evil man. We are fighting evil and we were

01:00:48

We were now Is let me before someone writes in and bothers rich with this is

01:00:57

There evidence that we knew in the 1930s That Adolf Hitler was evil that Adolf Hitler hated

01:01:06

Jews that Adolf Hitler was going to be imprisoning Jews Was there evidence that not only we knew that but that there was such an anti -jewish sentiment in the

01:01:13

United States We did do we did nothing We let it happen. Well, it's not like we could stop it, but we for example that there was such a strong anti -jewish sentiment even in the

01:01:25

United States because of What what was going on in the 1930s the depression

01:01:33

Which we did not get out of until what? the war

01:01:39

That's how you get out of depressions is wars and we're heading into one

01:01:45

We shot ourselves in the head and dove face first into a global depression

01:01:51

Good job The only way out of those is called war and that stinks.

01:01:57

Let's hope that's not what happens But that's what happened then But because of the depression joining together with a attitude against Jews There were certain we were allowed to By law, we could allow a certain number of people into the country from certain countries.

01:02:20

We wouldn't do it We'd only let maybe 10 % of what little all allowed Because the idea was you don't got no jobs here and We don't want

01:02:29

Jews here. There was amazingly anti -jewish stuff. It's just loathsome disgusting stuff

01:02:36

But it was popular. Hey, that's where Planned Parenthood started. There was bare people eugenics

01:02:43

Was very popular in the 1930s in the United States. So we weren't the the

01:02:51

Christian worldview had begun breaking down in the late 1800s.

01:02:57

You see this in the rise of liberalism amongst churches Darwinism was now Giving people an excuse to not consider their creator or their creators demands upon their lives then

01:03:08

World War one started a nosedive and The 30s were ugly.

01:03:14

The 30s were ugly 40s. We were a little bit preoccupied With other things and then because of the massive growth in manufacturing that took place during World War two now all of a sudden we've got stuff and So there's a great materialism that develops in 1950s materialism never satisfies the soul.

01:03:37

So what happens in the 60s? sex drugs and rock and roll And those are the people in charge now the people who grew up during that time.

01:03:44

Isn't that great? Um, so anyway a little bit of American history there the point is that the

01:03:54

Christian worldview recognizes the need for a restraint upon government and We had that But what we've seen over the past two months is

01:04:10

Even a beginning of an understanding of why that is necessary is functionally gone

01:04:17

It's functionally gone and even amongst the church even in the church Why think about it?

01:04:24

What theology is predominant in the church? Is it one that recognizes the total depravity of man and the evilness of his heart or one that talks about how good he is?

01:04:33

and capable in of himself of responding to a provision so You see this kind of stuff and you just go wow there.

01:04:46

Hey The technocrats Facebook Google Twitter Apple Microsoft, they don't even have to hide it

01:04:57

They can go ahead and just come straight out there and say we will determine truth for you.

01:05:03

Trust us Us Trust us and so then there's one other aspect

01:05:09

Someone didn't like what I'm saying I forgot to talk to seb about phil keagy.

01:05:21

Um, but yes phil keagy is a tremendous guitarist There's no question about it. I love listening to phil keagy as well.

01:05:28

He's in my in in my list as well um, let's see that totally totally trained to cause the train to direct um

01:05:37

But you see what's going on in the church along these lines and so what what are we now seeing

01:05:44

What is the new virtue signaling in our culture right now virtue signaling is

01:05:52

Have you noticed it's No one in november of 2019, which was just a few weeks ago

01:06:01

Could have possibly recognized How different our world would be in less than six months

01:06:10

Could not have recognized it Virtue signaling back then is different than virtue signaling now

01:06:19

Virtue signaling now Is demonstrating That we're all in this together

01:06:28

And We're all gonna join together. I can't help but think of all of the soviet propaganda in pravda

01:06:35

Where the russians are standing against those nasty americans and da da da da da

01:06:40

We're all in this together and and it's just straight down the line. And so in 1984

01:06:48

What did you have you had the two minutes hate remember the two minutes hate And that's where everybody got together and they expressed their hatred for the enemy now

01:07:02

When the war changed and you now realigned with somebody else now you expressed your hate towards somebody else and now the people used to hate

01:07:09

Aren't the people you hate and so you had to change history And so that was one of the things that winston was involved with was rewriting newspapers from the past To cover over the fact that everything is everything has changed

01:07:25

And that's what the newspeak thing was about changing the language controlling the language.

01:07:30

I mean orwell Called it Prophetically called it and we're doing it.

01:07:37

He just couldn't imagine The level of technology that we have now one other thing and i've got to get some some other stuff one other thing real quick um

01:07:47

Did you see I retweeted it? Maybe I can Pull it up off of my own.

01:07:53

Um Thing with bobby here, but I retweeted it this morning. Um, i'm getting close here

01:08:03

Um, it came from uh, tony up in canada, why did it disappear? I wonder if it got deleted um

01:08:12

Well that because that yeah where'd it go It wasn't the stuff from london, even though that was pretty freaky

01:08:19

It oh there it is right at the top Um here is Let me let me pull this down here

01:08:32

Okay, there is no sound to this But can do you have it?

01:08:42

Oh We haven't fixed that hmm, okay now

01:08:51

I can't see it to expand it it's gone. It's okay. All right Um, all right, this is a chinese

01:09:06

This is some china. It's a chinese commercial. Uh, it's too big. I can't start it. You've got expanded too large.

01:09:17

Um This is a chinese commercial um Okay, what you doing?

01:09:33

Okay. Well, all right Um We can't expand it.

01:09:39

So I'll just play it like this. It's the only way I can do it. Um So you can sort of watch what's going on here

01:09:48

Here's this black guy. I don't know why he's all You know, he's cut himself up or something. Here's this chinese woman and he's he's

01:09:56

He's interested in her. He's making the moves on her now watch what she does stuffs him in this machine with some type of I don't look like a tide pod to me

01:10:10

Runs him through the cycle and he comes out as a pure chinese guy

01:10:18

Yeah There you go. Oh, isn't he beautiful? Chinese guy

01:10:26

Now, let me Let me just ask a simple question um so I talked to a friend who has been over there a good bit and I had seen like this cartoon thing of of how the from china where they're picking up trash

01:10:47

And the trash is white people and black people and they're throwing them in garbage cans because they're trash in comparison to chinese people

01:10:54

So Nothing appears in chinese media outside the control of the chinese communist party

01:11:02

Racism real racism the racism That you can define from a dictionary and we're not talking the faux

01:11:11

I'm going to be offended by everything Abuse the term racism that has become popular in the united states.

01:11:18

I mean Real we are superior to you because our race is superior to you.

01:11:24

You are inferior to us racism Is the official policy of the chinese communist party ccp chinese communist party that doesn't appear in china um unless It the the the government is approving of it

01:11:43

Okay so They are racist against caucasians

01:11:51

They are even more racist against blacks Did you have you heard about this

01:12:00

From the from the same people that are digging up racist charges from Everything you can possibly imagine here in the united states one of the least racist nations in the world

01:12:15

Well, that's not the narrative Here's the narrative Who's running for president that's the most like the chinese communist party

01:12:27

Who is who is present who pushed? That one party so far to the left

01:12:33

That bernie sanders was once one of the leading candidates in that party And he's not just a socialist.

01:12:41

Where did he honeymoon at? hmm so Let me figure out if you are a christian person of color

01:12:55

Why will the majority? Of you vote for the party closest to That kind of racism that also profanes marriage promotes homosexuality

01:13:05

And murders your babies at a higher rate than any other people facts or facts facts or facts

01:13:15

And it just makes me go What is going on? What is going on I can't even begin to understand it

01:13:24

I can't begin to understand But yeah, uh dig around a little bit

01:13:30

I like I said, there's a um, uh, there's a racist incredibly racist cartoon thing about checking aliens

01:13:40

And I don't mean space aliens. I mean White people caucasians blacks checking them in trash cans

01:13:49

Uh, and again just representative of a blatant state -sponsored

01:13:55

Status of we are superior to everyone else Um, that's that's what we're facing.

01:14:03

Yes, sir The phrase that we've all been seeing on tv all the famous people are running around using it

01:14:11

You used it a minute ago. We're all in this together. Yes. Oh, yes. We're all in this together The soviets had one word

01:14:21

For the exact same concept Comrade Comrade.

01:14:28

Oh, yeah, we are all in this together We all think the same way.

01:14:34

We're all pulling in the same direction We all want the same things comrade

01:14:41

Yeah, and it one word when when the united states pulled together It wasn't based upon the elevation of this of the government to the discerner of all truth

01:14:51

It was based upon a common definition of what evil was And so you look at hitler's germany and hitler's germany was evil because it was there was a

01:15:03

Consistent shared worldview that defines killing people like they were killing people as evil um

01:15:10

That has been lost And it is a great loss it is a a tremendous great loss to us now

01:15:19

I said yesterday I would continue this so we're going to continue this. Uh, did you see this?

01:15:24

I I didn't see this. Uh evidently you you told me that that latent flowers posted a picture of me flossing my cat

01:15:31

Got a phone call you haven't seen it Somehow flossing so is this supposed to mean that i'm i'm i'm trying to avoid something because I don't actually know what it means um, it's oops wrong button there, uh

01:15:49

I just got a phone call said it just dropped. I should look at it. I haven't had a chance to have this going on and it's got a picture of you and a cat and I guess the caption is james white flosses his cat something like that.

01:16:04

So cool. That's all I know and It's latent. There you go.

01:16:09

Um As you said I think you were exactly right we need to find someone to photoshop.

01:16:15

Um, something in regards to the black knight Just a flesh wound Yep, yep.

01:16:24

Yep. There you go. Um, some people have no idea what that is. That's okay So, um, we didn't finish this yesterday need to try to get to it.

01:16:31

Um, and um, yeah um Back to church history here.

01:16:36

We've covered a bunch of other stuff now back to church history let me give you the um Give you the put you back up to speed here um

01:16:47

On monday, I talked about the fact that um Probably just a lot of backstory here um

01:16:55

That we have been dealing with ken wilson's, uh theories concerning the source

01:17:01

Of augustine's understanding of predestination and election his theory that this is a stoic

01:17:09

Gnostic manichaean understanding of determinism Uh, one of the things we've been talking about is the fact that any careful scholar will recognize

01:17:17

That there are multiple forms of stoic determinism. There are multiple understandings in gnosticism

01:17:23

Based upon different cosmologies and of course manichaean understandings of cosmology are fully dualistic

01:17:30

None of which can have any logical or rational connection to a christian theistic understanding the sovereignty of god

01:17:38

The category errors are manifest clear and stunning uh in in their obvious nature

01:17:47

Obviously people who are not christians don't care about that type of thing if you're familiar with the um history of religion schools

01:17:56

You know that there are a lot of people who are willing to try to make connections between egyptian um mythology greek mythology

01:18:06

That's the background of the christian mythology everything's mythology and They begin with the assumption that all religion is just simply made up in people's minds

01:18:17

Anyways, there can't be divine revelation so on and so forth. And so you'll find lots of that kind of stuff out there um, but so we

01:18:26

Have been looking at part of the assertion. We've been listening to an interview that layton flowers did with ken wilson

01:18:32

I'm, not sure why they're complaining, but we're picking on we're just simply playing what they themselves have asserted as a background for digging into uh, the

01:18:42

Dissertation itself which will allow us to talk about a lot of church history stuff. That's very very important It helps to root us

01:18:48

In our tradition and understanding where we came from in recognizing there have been great men of god in the past They were flawed.

01:18:55

We don't have to agree with everything. Everyone said there's lots of things to disagree with with augustine Exegetically and things like that and yet still

01:19:05

Recognize not only the great influence that he had but the great insights he had that's not a common perspective unfortunately for a lot of christians to have and as a result a lot of christians don't read church history because They're afraid of encountering stuff that's different from where they are

01:19:20

Rather than finding that to be an exciting thing an enriching thing something that only uh

01:19:27

Deepens you in your your foundational beliefs and things like that. Um, so One of the things that we've been dealing with is the earliest christian sources outside of the new testament

01:19:39

Uh, which are are called in general called the apostolic fathers The writers that would have been living in the time of or immediately after the period of the apostles

01:19:49

Which includes books such as the didache? It includes ignatius of antioch who dies 107 108

01:19:57

And uh the little epistle to diognetus And then the epistle of clement

01:20:03

As it is traditionally known. It's actually the epistle of the church of rome the church of corinth Traditionally date around 95.

01:20:10

It could be even before the fall of of jerusalem in 80 70 and so Last week we documented the fact that because layton flowers brought up in his own

01:20:23

Uh interview, he didn't have to do this, but he brought it up in 2018 was interviewing Uh, ken wilson.

01:20:29

He brings up his assertion that I tried to turn clement into calvinist Which of course I did not but I had mentioned the fact that the term elect is utilized in clement's epistle he used

01:20:43

Synonymous Later material that wasn't from clement. He didn't realize that he had not

01:20:48

I believe read clement at that point in time the actual historical individual

01:20:55

And so we brought that out and so he Tries to spin that uh in a video

01:21:02

And we started responding to some of the assertions that were made the last tough stuff that we talked about was the provisionist idea

01:21:11

Um that in essence god does not elect people Uh, he elects to save people who believe in jesus and so if you were to Write this out in a logical progression

01:21:27

Human autonomous acts because there is no divine decree. There is no divine decree in provisionist theology.

01:21:33

So autonomous human acts undetermined by god So they come from something other than god himself so they they are

01:21:46

Unaccounted for facts in the sense of God creates the ability for them to come into existence, but does not determine what they're going to be they determine

01:21:58

Who then is going to be saved? In a provisionistic system because all god is elected to do is to save people who do something

01:22:07

So he does not elect them um They have the ability autonomously to engage in this act of faith

01:22:17

Over against the misrepresentation that he consistently makes that we don't know because We're not saying it's within the human realm that determines who is elected by god

01:22:28

It is a part of his good will it is his good will that chooses so with that What layton attempts to do?

01:22:37

Is he attempts to make the argument in this in this that if you read clement? Clement sounds more like a provisionist

01:22:45

Than he does a calvinist both of which obviously are anachronistic terms

01:22:52

And obviously, uh, I pointed out that the reality is this isn't clement's topic um if we are going to take any if we are going to come to any conclusions about what clement said which ken wilson does

01:23:09

Because he says it's the universalistic view of everybody um was

01:23:14

They all believed in election based upon foreign knowledge um when

01:23:21

I first saw the Video It said um

01:23:29

Strive to be counted among the elect strive to count among the elect and i'm like I don't remember that phrase.

01:23:39

We better look this up And so I looked it up and that doesn't appear in clement That's because it is

01:23:46

Layton flower's interpretation Of a book that he read for the first time this past weekend

01:23:55

It's the interpretation of someone who has no idea what the clementine literature is Can't tell the difference between the good and the bad when what century is written

01:24:03

And thinks that when I bring up those issues from having debated these topics for decades that that's all red herring

01:24:12

I will allow you to make the decision as to the value of that type of interpretation But let's take a look at what is said and uh, we'll wrap up When we get a chance to finish this up because there's it's there's only a couple minutes here

01:24:26

I am at 1 .2. It's a little bit faster, but that's the only way to get things done. Here we go We go to clement other teachings here in the same, uh epistle

01:24:33

Um, okay other teachings other than the phraseology that I pointed out That not only does the term the elect appear a number of times in Clement's epistle, which is not what you find in provisionist writings

01:24:46

The only time elect appears in provisionist writings is when you're arguing against calvinists It's not a normal expression of anything because there are no elect

01:24:56

They're they're the the elect choose themselves So god doesn't have god doesn't express election of individuals only to provide

01:25:08

This these opportunities so i'd point out the number of the elect in Clement's language is not a term that would naturally appear in provision of speaking because there is no number of the elect

01:25:23

You the only way you could talk about the number of the elect is at the end time After all the autonomous acts of literally billions and billions of humans

01:25:32

Then from the end you can count back as to who

01:25:38

Elected to take advantage But it's not god that elected. It's they that elected god in essence

01:25:46

When you think about it Um, that's the only way that you would have a number of elect that would be there

01:25:51

So we ask ourselves what what is most likely clement's perspective on this? Is it the more calvinistic perspective or is it the more provisionistic perspective and you'd be the judge?

01:26:01

We'll just go through some of the statements where he talks about the elect or the chosen of god So let's let's look at some of other clements writings in chapter 59 verse 3 it says god of all flesh who looks into the abysses

01:26:13

Who beholds the work of men who is the helper of those in danger the savior of those who have lost hope

01:26:19

Who is the maker and bishop of every soul who makes the nations to multiply upon the earth and out of all?

01:26:26

You have chosen those that love you through jesus christ Your beloved son through whom you have taught us and have sanctified us and have honored us now

01:26:35

Notice here that he does talk about again chosen. That's what the word elect is to be chosen Okay, who is he chosen?

01:26:41

You have chosen those that love you and so clearly it seems to indicate here at least that clement believes that the choice

01:26:48

Is based upon one's love of christ love of god Okay, so this would this would comport with paul's teach righteous things or good things whatsoever without sorry about that It clicked in the wrong spot and i've never seen it do that before now

01:27:01

I want you to hear this again. Listen, listen to what is what is being said because this is theologically very significant Is based upon one's love of christ love of god, so The elect are chosen based upon their love of christ their love of god so Love god

01:27:26

And you'll be the elect Um, if you shall love the lord god with all your heart soul mind strength, then shall his grace be sufficient for you

01:27:36

That's from the book of mormon What is that ron? I 10 30 10 30.

01:27:44

I was gonna say four and five. He's like, nope. It's later in the chapter. It's farther down the page Um, we're on chapter 10

01:27:49

Um the work salvation impossibility system. So here is the

01:27:55

Here is the uh actual context Grant us lord

01:28:01

Grant us lord To hope on your name. Okay, let me just stop This is a book written by one christian church to another christian church this is a

01:28:18

Group of christian pastors the elders of the church at rome Writing to the people of the church at corinth because they had kicked their elders out

01:28:29

Inappropriately in the mind of the church at rome so the paragraph starts

01:28:37

Dos hey mean goody give to us lord grant to us to hope upon your name

01:28:50

That's how the that's how the paragraph starts Is that a provisionist thought?

01:28:59

Because the provisionist says, you know, even according to the latent flowers you don't need prevenient grace

01:29:06

Right Right, but this isn't even about unsaved people to begin with What that was actually, uh what

01:29:17

I thought it was second nephi 25 23 And it says for we labor diligently to write listen to this this is amazing the parallel To persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in christ and to be reconciled to god for we know that it is

01:29:33

By grace we're saved after all we can do that's a different. No, that's all i'm quoting Love the lord you got all the it's it it is in moroni

01:29:41

Um, it is in I thought I thought 10 30 was right. I looked at 10 Let's see 10 4 and 5 is that's the that's this testament of the holy spirit.

01:29:52

Yeah 10 30 is And again, I would exhort you you would come unto christ and lay hold of every good gift and not touch the evil gift

01:30:01

Or nor the unclean thing Which doesn't sound familiar to me no, but it's it check that chapter out because it's in there i'm looking yeah 10 34 10 34

01:30:13

It's just off top my head. I don't have any i'm looking at something else right now So once you find it, let me know but I gotta stay focused on this.

01:30:20

So Is this a provisionist statement? Is it there? 10 32 yay come unto christ and be

01:30:27

Perfected in him and deny yourselves of all ungodliness If you shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love god with all your might mind and strength

01:30:35

Then is his grace sufficient for you that by his grace you may be perfect in christ.

01:30:41

Okay, 10 32 Yeah, I was I was off by two verses all right Is uh, this is

01:30:50

One set of christians exhorting other christians grant us lord to hope in your name. So this is

01:30:57

A recognition of the necessity for christians To have the sustaining work of the spirit of god to maintain our hope el pizan

01:31:11

In his name which is To hope on your name, which is the primal source of all creation

01:31:19

And open the eyes of our hearts that we may know you Dependence upon god to open the eyes of our hearts which would mainly mean that they weren't open naturally of themselves, but Who alone are highest among the high you are holy abiding among the holy you humble the pride of the proud

01:31:43

You destroy the plans of the nations you exalt the humble and humble the exalted You make rich and make poor you kill and make alive sounds like a sovereign god to me

01:31:53

Am I am I exaggerating that That sounds like a you you exalt the humble humble exalt you to make rich and make poor you kill and make life that sounds like god's sovereignty

01:32:07

Providentially taking place amongst men. This sounds like isaiah. This sounds like isaiah 10.

01:32:13

This sounds like isaiah 40 Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, that's the immediate preceding sentence though.

01:32:20

So maybe You alone are the benefactor of spirits and the god of all flesh this is where he picked up Looking into the depths scanning the works of humans not being dependent upon the works of humans but scanning

01:32:35

Observing the works of humans the helper of those who are in peril the savior of those in despair the creator and guardian of every spirit

01:32:43

You multiply the nations upon the earth and from among all of them You have chosen those who love you through jesus christ your beloved servant through whom you instructed us sanctified us

01:32:57

Honored us. We ask you master to be our helper and protector Save those among us who are in distress have mercy on the humble

01:33:06

Raise up the fallen show yourself to those in need heal the sick Turn back those of your people who wander feed the hungry ransom our prisoners raise up the weak comfort the discouraged

01:33:15

Let all the nations know that you are the only god that jesus christ is your servant And that we are your people and the sheep of your pasture

01:33:23

All right. So there's the section And from that we get this line

01:33:31

And from among all of them you have chosen those who love you through jesus christ becomes

01:33:43

In latent flowers interpretation So it is

01:33:51

So that is from eclego to choose The ones loving you

01:34:02

The beloved one your beloved child so evidently the interpretation

01:34:16

Is that the dia is Describing well exactly we weren't given an interpretation but the the conclusion is that the election of these individuals

01:34:33

And it's assumed this has to do with salvation The election of these individuals is because of their loving god first As john said

01:34:47

He loves us because we loved him first Oh, i'm, sorry

01:34:54

John didn't say that did he no We love him because he first loved us. Well, that's just john.

01:35:01

This is clement. Maybe it's something else. I don't know so in a section

01:35:11

Beseeching god To bestow all these mercies and save and sustain and sanctify and rescue

01:35:23

And everything else in the middle of this We have latent flowers telling us that Uh You multiply the nations upon the earth

01:35:38

So you you are the one creator of all people and from among all of them that's that sounds like our understanding that all doesn't mean every single individual but Men from every tribe tongue people a nation because he's talking about nations upon the earth, right?

01:35:56

So from among all of them You have chosen those who love you through jesus christ

01:36:04

You want an example my friends? I remember some guy some fellow a brother i'm sure on twitter about four months ago

01:36:17

I Just wish you'd stop using the phrase man -centered and god -centered.

01:36:22

It's all god -centered No, it's not Because there is a perfectly consistent biblical

01:36:35

Way of understanding these words biblical in the sense of maintaining the biblical emphases

01:36:42

That does not present this as well God chooses those who choose him and in fact

01:36:52

How you can have any evidently? You heard it here. Let me I I didn't make i'm not making this up is based upon one's love of christ love of god.

01:37:05

So You love god God then chooses you that's what he's saying.

01:37:10

Clement is saying Is that not man -centeredness? Is that not making man's actions the very center of everything?

01:37:19

Of course it is What is a consistent so evidently if you're

01:37:26

He's applying this to salvation He's applying this to the election of god

01:37:32

And he's saying clement says that out of all the nations He chooses

01:37:41

Those who love god Not that his choice

01:37:48

Results in our loving him Not that his choice

01:37:53

Is why he would say give to us to hope in your name Why would we need?

01:38:01

God to give us the ability to hope in his name if we didn't need god's ability to love him in the first place

01:38:09

That's the beginning of the paragraph Give to us lord that we might hope in your name

01:38:18

Is hope tougher than love? Because the idea here is you have the capacity you as the rebel sinner against god dead in your trespasses and sins

01:38:30

Have the ability to love god and once you choose to love god, then he'll love you, too

01:38:40

And i've been trying to tell people This stuff will just keep going farther and farther out there

01:38:49

There's no stopping place Once you start down this road They don't like the name

01:38:58

They'll want to argue even pelagius didn't believe it, but that's where it goes Because we now have an anthropology

01:39:05

That says that man Apart from grace is capable of loving god

01:39:11

And doing so in such a way that god will then respond to their loving him by choosing them

01:39:19

That's what We were just I just played it i've played it for you three times so far You can roll back if you want to hear some more of it instead given all of this

01:39:30

Is beseeching god for his grace? Notice that it is through jesus christ

01:39:38

The only way we can love god is through jesus christ and the only way for that to happen is be in him

01:39:46

That's what it's talking about We love god through jesus christ

01:39:54

It's not we have the capacity and jesus is just a add -on This stuff's important.

01:40:03

You see how the foundational perspectives you had will end up coloring everything everything

01:40:13

I I just We continue on Okay, so this would this would report with paul's teaching that says um, you perish because you refuse to love the truth

01:40:23

So as to be saved as he said in the letter to the church in thessalonica, I believe it was and so when

01:40:28

Okay. Now, what was that about? What was that? What was that? discussion there

01:40:34

Um, in fact, this is the text that I preached Uh the one time

01:40:40

I had the opportunity to uh Preach from behind john mccarthur's pulpit at grace community church

01:40:48

I preached out of second thessalonians chapter two And This is talking about the deceptive one

01:40:58

That is the one who's coming is in accord with the activity of satan with all power and signs and false wonders And with all the deception of wickedness for whom second thessalonians 2 10 twice apollumenois the perishing ones

01:41:18

Now Does the apostle paul Anywhere else talk about?

01:41:25

The perishing ones because it is the perishing ones because they did not receive the love of the truth

01:41:31

So as to be saved so Enlightened flowers theology the perishing ones are the perishing ones simply because They could be something else

01:41:43

They have the ability in themselves of themselves to be something else They have the autonomous capacity apart from grace to believe

01:41:54

Love the truth because there it is receive the love of the truth love of god love the truth Is there really all that much difference there so as to be safe?

01:42:02

So everybody has that capacity Does the apostle paul address? Twice apollumenois any place else

01:42:10

I wonder Hmm I I seem to recall that he did

01:42:16

Because by the way for these those who perish for this reason god will send upon them

01:42:22

The perishing ones a deluding influence that they will believe what is false in order that they all may be judged

01:42:29

Who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness Wow, it sounds like So I I guess from his perspective.

01:42:38

Yeah, god only does that Once you've gone far enough In being one of these perishing ones.

01:42:46

Does that term apollumenois sound familiar to you? It should we've talked about it so many times before For For the word of the cross is indeed to those who are perishing foolishness

01:43:14

But to those who are being saved it is the power of god

01:43:21

And who determines this according to the apostle paul

01:43:28

Well You know the text Indeed, we proclaim christ crucified to the jews a scandal to the greeks foolishness

01:43:41

But to those who are called Whether jews or greeks christ the power of god and the wisdom of god.

01:43:52

It's god's calling That determines who the sodom and odom are And who the apollumenois are it's right there in the text of scripture itself

01:44:06

And I need to Re -click over here wherever we are. There we are.

01:44:12

We hear things like that. Why did they perish? Well, they perish because they refuse to love the truth in the same way Why aren't you chosen because you've refused to love god you've refused to love the truth

01:44:21

So they're chosen based upon what some arbitrary no unconditional reason that we just don't know about. No, they have been chosen

01:44:27

Because they love him. Okay, so there's one example of where it would side with our interpretation rather than the calvinistic interpretation

01:44:34

Let's look at some more so I want you to hear this. This is where it leads folks

01:44:41

This is where it leads. This is a destruction of the gospel of grace It is a destruction of the gospel of grace

01:44:48

It is saying that men apart From grace are able to love god

01:44:57

And as a result of so loving god, this is pelagianism you need

01:45:04

Don't argue about what pelagius believed. This is pelagianism You can make the distinction between nastorius and nastorianism

01:45:12

Then if you need to make the distinction between pelagius and pelagianism Pelagianism is the idea that man has the capacity in and of himself apart from Supernatural grace to do what is necessary to gain the right standing with god and you just heard layton flowers

01:45:33

Say it He just said it Yes, can we hear this

01:45:41

Can we hear this is the fundamental denial of the reformation That's why in the interview

01:45:53

Wilson can sit there and throw accolades and basically say that eastern orthodoxy

01:46:02

Is apostolic and eastern orthodoxy its fundamental failure is biblical anthropology

01:46:10

That's where it is has its main problem That's why you can see it and that's why layton flowers like yeah, that's right.

01:46:17

That's right You just said it Just said it right there.

01:46:24

It's right there in front of all of us Verse two of that same chapter no chapter before 58 Accept our advice and it will not be repeated by you

01:46:32

For as god lives and as the lord jesus christ lives and the holy spirit the confidence and hope of the elect

01:46:38

He who observes in humility with earnest obedience And repining not the ordinances and commands given by god.

01:46:46

He shall be reckoned and counted in the number Of them that are saved by christ jesus So again, he's using the word elect and the word the number of them

01:46:53

Okay in the same way that he used it here in chapter two where he's just quoting from Here he's using it again in chapter 58 verse 2 and he's speaking of the elect

01:47:02

And being counted in the number of them And so he says the elect and then what does he say about the elect?

01:47:07

Does he say they're just there's no reason that they're elect or does he say the reasons that they might be elect? Well, it seems here.

01:47:13

He says the elect he who observes in humility and earnest and obedience. In other words he god

01:47:18

Observes their humility their earnest obedience. They're repining not I mean, they're not they're not um fretting

01:47:25

In other words their ordinances the commands given to them by god. He shall be reckoned and counted in the number of them

01:47:31

So how are you counted in the number of them? You're in humility and earnest obedience. So Are you hearing this?

01:47:40

Anyone who understands justification by faith is sitting here going. Oh my goodness. Is he really saying that?

01:47:48

I i'm, sorry. I have no idea how this is even semi -consistent with the baptist faith and message. I really don't

01:47:55

I really don't But let's look at um clement 58 2 Accept our advice and you will have nothing to regret.

01:48:04

So who's that addressed to? That's addressed to the church of corinth this is written to christians

01:48:11

Accept our advice and you have nothing to regret for as god lives and as the lord jesus christ lives and the holy spirit

01:48:17

Who are the faith and hope of the elect? Let me just stop What is that folks if this is a first century document as we believe that it is?

01:48:25

What do you hear there? It says nothing to do with latent flowers forget about latent flowers for that. What do you hear there?

01:48:31

It's trinity For as god lives as the lord jesus christ lives and the holy spirit or the faith and hope of the elect so When we look at ignatius, we see him talking about uh, the father the son the spirit in the gospel

01:48:46

Here we have multiple first century sources using trinitarian language

01:48:53

And I will you go why are you emphasizing this because it's vital to emphasize it because we're always told

01:48:59

That the doctrine of the trinity is some development down the line. It was the natural language of god's people even in writing to another church about their rebellion against their elders very very important i'm not going to let

01:49:16

This other stuff get in the way of pointing that out Who are the faith and hope of the elect father son and spirit together

01:49:25

The faith and hope of the elect is not let's let's put let's put the jehovah's witness interpretation on that Who is the faith and hope of the elect jehovah god michael the archangel and an impersonal active force?

01:49:37

Doesn't fit real well, does it? No, it doesn't How many jehovah's witnesses have ever read this almost none?

01:49:44

Almost none the number is extremely small um but It is god who is the faith and hope of the elect so surely so so accept our advice

01:49:59

For as god lives Triune god who is the faith and hope of the elect?

01:50:05

So surely the one who with humility and constant gentleness

01:50:11

Has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by god. What's this about?

01:50:17

It's the church at rome saying to the corinthians you haven't done this you need to repent

01:50:24

You kicked your elders out You need to maintain the unity of the body

01:50:30

We have gone by by chapter 58 There has been this long discussion Of how there has always been order in the church because there's order in the old testament and amongst the people of god

01:50:41

That's what it's talking about when it's talking about ordinances and commandments so Has kept without regret the ordinances and commandments given by god will be enrolled

01:50:53

And included among the number of those who are saved through jesus christ is are you seriously saying?

01:51:02

Seriously Saying that what clement is teaching is that by your keeping the ordinances and commandments

01:51:10

Given by god that you're saved by grace because if you're saying that you are a mormon missionary

01:51:19

Because that's exactly what they say It's exactly what they say That is works salvation to its core

01:51:29

You think that's what clement was saying seriously Or in the context of his letter

01:51:37

Is he saying if you will repent if you will hear our advice? if you will

01:51:44

Obey the ordinances and commandments given by god. This will show that you are

01:51:52

Amongst those who have been saved by grace in other words the unity of the body Will be restored you will be amongst the number of the elect you'll be shown division was something that was hated

01:52:07

Because there had to be one body that came from paul That's the context see how easy it is to twist this stuff.

01:52:16

See how easy it is to abuse These things when you don't do your background study and you dare to record videos about three days after you first read something

01:52:29

And have read nothing about its background ever Sorry, probably shouldn't have said that but it really annoys me

01:52:37

Really does To take something like this and then promote this kind of destruction of grace

01:52:49

Uh will be enrolled and included among the number of those who are saved through jesus christ through Whom is the glory to god forever and ever this is a beautiful trinitarian passage providing hope

01:53:03

That the corinthian church will repent of their rebellion Obey the commandments of god and be counted amongst the unified church

01:53:18

By ignoring all of that you turn it into a proof text for works salvation

01:53:25

I'm not talking about work salvation. Yes, you are If you are saying you can love god enough and obey god enough for god to then choose you

01:53:35

What is the difference? This is what the reformation was fought about And you're on the other side

01:53:49

You're on the other side That's what it was about I expected to be quite calm about this, but when you start hearing people

01:54:01

It's literally telling people that apart from god's grace you can love god

01:54:10

And that's what's going to make the difference between you and other people Aside from the abuse of second thessalonians chapter 2 not seeing first corinthians chapter 1 all the rest of that kind of stuff if you look at the uh citations and I actually have them here that were provided By dr.

01:54:38

Flowers Uh, which included 59 3 58 2 35 3 through 4 29 1 they're all mixed up.

01:54:47

There's nothing about the context where the flow and the argument is at this particular point

01:54:52

That's understandable because he's just searching for words Because he's never taught what this epistle is about he's never talked about its background its context

01:55:02

And therefore you are inevitably going to twist it Out of just sheer ignorance

01:55:11

Look at yourself. It's on youtube go to soteriology 101 Um, you can see the various texts that are cited none of which

01:55:21

Even begin to explain the presence of phraseology such as the number of the elect none just as nothing that wilson said

01:55:35

Had any relevance either so at least he's getting it from consistent source now some of you

01:55:46

One last thing where we close some of you you're just so mean to fellow christians when fellow christians

01:55:55

Start promoting Not just the abuse of early church fun. Not just not even knowing what they're talking about and and totally changing their context

01:56:04

Not just that but when you start promoting A fundamental denial of the centrality of grace

01:56:12

And I know what he's gonna say. Oh god didn't have to provide the opportunities Grace is the power of god that brings about the change in the heart of man

01:56:25

And when you start denying that I'm gonna come after you

01:56:31

Because you need to be you need to be rebuked and brought back into the fold. You're on the way out the door

01:56:38

To heresy when you start when you're doing this kind of stuff You really are

01:56:47

This is not consistent with my I do not see how you can consistently sit here and say you can love god

01:56:54

You can obey his commandments. You got all these capacities before regeneration and how you can make that fit into the baptist faith and message

01:57:04

I don't know how you do it. But the importance is

01:57:14

That I Unlike latent flowers have been defending that gospel against rome's perversions of it for decades

01:57:26

And when I see a fellow baptist Arguing like them from the same sources

01:57:34

And making the same mistakes You bet i'm gonna speak about it You bet i'm gonna speak about it who else is going to do it

01:57:49

Has to be done has to be done. I thought I would then be able to Finish up the last two or three sections very brief sections in the interview, but we'll get to them.

01:58:01

We The lockdown continues probably till the end of may unless I don't know and you know

01:58:07

There's supposed to be a big announcement tomorrow, right? Tomorrow's supposed today. I thought it was friday

01:58:13

Oh, so it's already been made. Oh, oh, oh

01:58:24

So, what did he say So I texted somebody I know will be going immediately right back to me uh, so whenever whatever

01:58:36

Obviously we have been doing our best to accompany you in your time of trial

01:58:44

Or be a trial to some people other people I suppose, uh, but we have we're actually this will be the first I think this is well

01:58:54

I have we ever ever ever done Five dividing lines in one week

01:59:00

I don't think so If we have I don't remember it. I don't I don't think it's And Three of them so far have been

01:59:10

Two hour editions. Mm -hmm. Yeah, we're at seven and a half hours right now. You've been the energizer bunny, dude

01:59:16

Going at it. It's hard to respond to this stuff briefly. Well, and I I want folks to understand something

01:59:24

It's not It's not you just walking in sitting down and going off You're spending your nights and your days

01:59:34

Studying and studying You've got me buying stuff right and left to bring it in and get dig into this

01:59:40

This isn't just reading stuff on its face You're you're just you're digging into it every bit of it making sure that you're working through the same source material

01:59:51

That is being cited and referred to it's the only way to do it and that Again, there's that four -letter word that you keep throwing out there work

02:00:01

Okay, and That's what it takes. Yep It's what it takes and it takes

02:00:08

Well, I think the thing that offends me is that I look at it and this is not my bailiwick, but I I can see it this information being dealt with very flippantly

02:00:21

And that's where I sit back and go wow I don't care what your conclusion is your work ethic is terrible

02:00:29

That's true and and the fact that you will treat this stuff

02:00:34

The way you are so self -serving is

02:00:40

So I got a response because I knew I would okay Some states can begin tomorrow So i'm going to interpret this for you

02:00:50

There are a number of states in the country that can become arizona Well, my question is

02:00:57

I wonder what's going to happen here I wonder what ducey's going to do oh i'm sure he'll It'll be things off he's got to be careful because we have one one problem we have a common border with the

02:01:08

Soviet socialist state of california. Yeah, and and mexico and and you know, new mexico and and and nevada and You know, so yeah, nevada.

02:01:20

Yeah, we're actually pretty surrounded we are so but the fact is is that we're still well -armed too yeah, and that's where you need to be, um, but You'll probably relax a few things but in a lot of ways a lot of other states are going to Start doing things similar to what we've been doing.

02:01:37

Right, right It's true. It's true. So Anyway, thank you.

02:01:42

Um G for uh responding to my uh, my inquiry there So, all right, so we've done a full two hours today two hours yesterday two hours day for that and an hour and a half

02:01:53

Why why was I such a wimp on monday? I don't I don't Just took it easy. I don't know what tomorrow will bring.

02:02:00

Um, but we'll see but we are setting new records uh for the dividing line and um

02:02:07

Don't expect that to continue forever I there are some other things i'm supposed to be doing but Uh, this is this is this is where we are right now.

02:02:18

So thank you for watching And thank you. Seb goldswayne. I will link to seb's uh, Contact information and stuff as soon as I get the blog article put together here

02:02:26

Um buy his albums listen to his stuff. He's a great guitarist great brother in the lord and uh, good man monday we're gonna have milo hotzenbuehler, um online and um he plays