May 16, 2018 Show with Dr. Robert Doom on “Missions & Holiness: Why Are Converts Overseas Rejecting the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace?” PLUS Dr. Erskine Dodson on “The Need for a Global Mindset in the Prayers, Support & Missionary Efforts of the Local Church”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 16th day of May 2018.

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I'm delighted to have two first -time guests on the program today. The first hour we are going to have

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Dr. Robert Doom, missionary, evangelist, pastor and publisher for over 40 years and director of Revival Literature.

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He is going to be addressing missions and holiness. Why are converts overseas rejecting the doctrines of sovereign grace?

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And then the second hour we're going to be having Dr. Erskine Dodson, God willing, director of global missions at Oasis of Hope Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, and he's going to be addressing the need for a global mindset in the prayer support and missionary efforts of the local church.

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And both of these men are going to be speaking this weekend at a conference in Virginia and we'll be telling you more about that in a little bit.

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But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Bob Doom.

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Certainly my great privilege to be with you and looking forward to the interview today and of course the conference this coming weekend.

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And I just received an email from a listener in Illinois who said that as a comic book fan he's excited that I'm interviewing

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Dr. Doom. I get that frequently with young people. They love it.

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And of course it's a western Kentucky name, all right? So German origin. Well it's obviously in the minds of many very appropriate for a

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Calvinist to have the name Doom. Well appropriate for a Christian to have the name

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Doom. I've got a message of life. That's right, amen. Well before we go into our discussion, as I typically do with first -time guests,

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I'd like you to give a summary of your own testimony of salvation, the religious upbringing you had as a child, if any, and what were the providential circumstances our sovereign

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Lord used in your life to draw you to himself and save you? Well of course my folks coming from western

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Kentucky were religious and they made sure that we were in church.

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And I came along in 1938 and it was still difficult years after that depression.

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And so we lived on a farm outside of Indianapolis ourselves near a place called

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Wanamaker, Indiana. And really the beginning of God's whole dealing with me began in that church where I professed faith in Christ as my

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Lord and Savior at an early age and followed the Lord in believer's baptism.

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I've often likened my conversion to that of Lydia in Acts chapter 16 and the scripture said, whose heart the

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Lord opened. Now if I had my preference, I'd rather have the earth -shaking event of the

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Philippian jailer. But God dealt in mercy with me and saved me and my folk moved around a lot in that area of Indiana.

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My dad worked on the New York Central Railroad and we got out of good churches in the process of moving.

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And some providences in my family's life, my two older brothers passed away, one with a brain tumor and another with a hit by a car on the street there.

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And I ended up in Martinsville, Indiana.

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And while I was at an engineering school in Terre Haute, Indiana, Rose Polytechnic it was back then,

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God used a verse in the book of James to call me to preach. Of James, but be a doers of the word and not hearers only.

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And of course being in a church that was corrupt, we weren't getting any food. My dad said to me when

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I came home from a liberal school, when are you going to go, and he mentioned Bob Jones University, when are you going to go to Bob Jones University and learn how to preach?

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Because he was raised in Kentucky and was used to preaching, you know, and couldn't stand this fellow that my mother was taking us to.

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So again, the power of the word of God, a scripture text repeated over and over in a basement, as I remember, there in Wanamaker, Indiana.

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God sealed that to my heart and began really then getting into good churches.

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And my life was characterized, but as I heard truth, I obeyed it.

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And I never forget going to that church. My dad wanted to go to it. The pastor was preaching on the new birth and from John three.

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And so it's just been a course of continuing to follow the light of the revelation of God and thank

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God for the beginning of God opening my heart as a child. And then

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God continuing to break light upon me through the preaching of the word. So I bless his name for the pathway thus far.

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You know, when you were giving your testimony, I immediately began to recall Charles Haddon Spurgeon's testimony of salvation when he walked through the doors of a primitive

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Methodist church in London, seeking escape from a blizzard and seeking warmth and shelter.

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And he heard a man who I believe was just an ordinary member of the church substituting for the pastor who just kept repeating some scriptural verse.

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And the Lord used that to open up his heart, mind, eyes and ears and saved him as a young teenager.

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It was from the Old Testament. Look unto me and be you saved all the ends of the earth for I am God and there is none other.

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Spurgeon said he looked till his eyeballs almost fill out. And God had been dealing with him in conviction power and brought him savingly to Christ.

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Thank God for converting us early, you know, and keeping us out of a lot of sin.

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Amen. Well, how did you as a Bob Jones University student come to the

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Doctrines of Sovereign Grace? Because at one time it was, I think, outlawed, wasn't it? Or they were outlawed, the

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Doctrines of Sovereign Grace? Yes. Well, you know, really, as I was a student there,

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I appreciate what old, I had, I still was privileged as Senator Dr. Bob Senior, who said, whatever the

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Bible says is so. He'd repeat that in every sermon. And he was repeating most of his sermons. But I remember hearing him preach.

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And so my point of reference of anything was not what

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Dr. Such and Such said, but what the Word of God said. And so as we went to Scotland as missionaries on an evangelistic team, first of all, and were endeavoring to evangelize there in the border area of Scotland, the area between Scotland and imaginary border between Scotland and England, my father -in -law was the late

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James Stewart, and he had delivered the lectures on evangelism the year I graduated from Bob Jones.

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And it was very interesting that one of the books that he had written, really a little booklet, called

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The Lordship of Christ, first of all, delivered me because we were, then when

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I went back to labor full -time, we had an evangelistic team holding tent meetings, mainly for youth and young people.

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He had written a little booklet called The Lordship of Christ. And he wrote that when he first came to America in 1938 and 39, and saw that already the evangelicals were losing the gospel and going to what was called then either easy -believe -ism or only -believe -ism.

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And his strong statements there in that particular book, in fact, we're just getting ready to reprint an eighth edition of it.

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He quoted Brother Spurgeon, and Spurgeon said, if a professed convert says that he knows the will of God and does not mean to attend to it, he said, don't pamper him in his presumption.

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Tell him he's lost, for God doesn't save folk to continue in rebellion. This is me, now in the

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Spurgeon's quote, but to submit continually to Christ as their

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Lord. And so it was again an opportunity of continuing to submit.

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And then eventually we moved up to the city of Edinburgh, where we're living in Berrick -on -Tweed, which was in England in those days.

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And I did a lot of open -air preaching, and I used to make a statement in the open air that I knew that if somebody challenged me about it,

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I wouldn't know how to answer it. After we would preach, I would make this statement after I'd, I would say, now

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God's done all he can do for you. And of course, I was waiting for somebody to come up and say to me, you've got an awful puny

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God. But instead of quit and stop saying it, just again through reading the scriptures, and then there's a book by Brother Bettner that put the pieces together, and uh...

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Lorraine Bettner? Lorraine Bettner put the pieces together that I was seeing in the scriptures then, brought me to understand the doctrine of grace.

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And at the same time, God was gracious, because we'd had some summer teams come across, and some of the young men on that particular summer team had come across from BJU, also had come to understand the doctrine of grace, and were sharing that with my wife.

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I guess I thought I was a wild man. They couldn't share it with me. So at the same time,

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God was breaking the truth of grace on her heart, and breaking the truth of grace on my heart. And so then before we established a

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Baptist church there in the city of Edinburgh, God brought us to understand fully that salvation is of the

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Lord. Amen. And all in the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Amen. And well, I know that there is a connection between you and the church where I am a member,

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Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, because the pastor that was the pastor of Grace Baptist Church for the longest period of time, 40 years or more,

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Walt Chantry, wrote a classic work titled, Today's Gospel, Authentic or Synthetic.

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Can you tell us about your relationship to that book? Yes. We have a literature minister here, as you've mentioned,

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Revival Literature, and we were burdened at the 300th anniversary of the

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First Baptist Association here in America, which would be the Philadelphia Baptist Association. And we were burdened to send out the

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Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith, along with some other booklets to as many

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Baptist pastors as we could get the names for. And so that ended up to be somewhere around 73, 74 ,000 packages of books that we sent to pastors across America and even into Hawaii and of course up in Alaska.

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And one of the books that we put in that, because we wanted to make sure that we had a correct emphasis on the gospel, was

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Pastor Chantry's book. I'm having a senior moment here.

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Today's Gospel, Authentic or Synthetic? Yeah, Today's Gospel, Authentic or Synthetic. And of course with that, we put the

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Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith, and then my father -in -law had written a little booklet called Biblical Salvation.

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And in that little booklet, he showed that the only evidence of saving faith is a changed life.

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And so we had a lot of feedback from pastors across America, particularly because of the small compass of the little booklet,

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Biblical Salvation. I remember a pastor from the West Coast calling me and said, this explains what's happening in our church here.

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We have people converted, and they don't want to be baptized, and they don't come back. Well, of course, they didn't get converted, you know, because God puts a heart in a person to be baptized, and puts a heart in a person to want to go here preaching.

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Amen. Amen. So that was our contact with Brother Chantry in that very vital book, you know, and we thank

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God for that. We also had some booklets on revival, and then of course the Bible issue, and so we sent these out to over 73, 74 ,000 pastors here in America.

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Because we offered them free copies for their Bible studies, our Sunday school classes, or whatever else.

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And so it became a bigger ministry, and we're grateful to have that opportunity to share again the gospel of the grace of God.

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Amen. Well, you'll be happy to know if you don't know this already, a very dear friend of mine who's an

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Orthodox Presbyterian today, and has been for many years actually, he is a fellow graduate of Bob Jones University, was a non -Calvinist, perhaps even anti -Calvinist, and the book that you just mentioned by Walt Chantry, Today's Gospel Authentic or Synthetic, was used of God to lead him to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, which he has embraced for decades and continues to embrace.

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And I'm always delighted to hear stories about that. I know quite a number of people and have met quite a number of people who were students at Bob Jones University who have become believers in Reformed Theology in spite of its history of being hostile towards those teachings.

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And my friend Bill Shishko, who I just mentioned, when he was asked once, how did you become a

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Calvinist going to Bob Jones University? And he said, well, Bob Jones University taught us to study the Bible, and I did.

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So there you go. That's the same testimony I have. Whatever the Bible says is so. Amen.

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So if you keep that emphasis, that's a good emphasis on the authority of Scripture, isn't it? Yes, amen.

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Well, tell us now about Revival Literature. You mentioned it there about distributing

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Today's Gospel Authentic or Synthetic, but tell us a little bit more detail about Revival Literature. Yes, Revival Literature was birthed out of the ministry of my father, in law, the late

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Dr. James Stewart. In fact, my senior year at Bob Jones University, he delivered the lectures on evangelism there, and that book is presently out of print.

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We're just getting ready to get it back in print here, hopefully in the next two or three months. We've been working on a new cover, etc.,

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called Evangelism Without Apology, which again was a tremendous book, and we've had

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Bible colleges using that particular book who love grace as well. But he was a unique man.

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He started preaching when he was 14 in Scotland, and his mentor was a brother from Northern Ireland, Tom Ray.

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Tom Ray said to him as a young evangelist, Jimmy, if they invite you to come for a meeting for less than four months, don't go.

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They don't mean business. And I think that in our great declension, whether it's whatever kind of church it is in America, we've developed a mentality of not wanting to go to the house of God.

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And I know I was preaching a meeting up in, for example, I was preaching a meeting up in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and we're talking about the subject of Revival, and of course, to back up a little bit here,

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James Stewart then went on as a young man to get a burden for Eastern Europe, and God used him as an instrument of revival in Eastern Europe, in the countries of Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, before they went behind the

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Iron Curtain. We publish a book, which again is currently out of print, we're going to reprint it, called

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Revival Behind the Iron Curtain. And so he was being used as an instrument before the communists were taking over that area of Eastern Europe.

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And many of the pastors who were converted under his ministry there lived to suffer and stand for Christ in the face of communist persecution.

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And so we say their books written on Revival, they're different, because here's a man that God has used in awakenings, you know, and saw the movings of God in different countries.

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And certainly that's our great need in our own beloved constitutional republic now, is a national moving of God.

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Amen. I want to give our email address for any of you who would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr.

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Bob Doom of your own. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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And also tell us something about this conference that you're going to be speaking at this weekend.

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I know that you and Pastor Joe Jackowitz and Dr. David Dickerson and Dr.

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Erskine Dodson, who is our second guest today during the second hour, are all speaking at this conference in Virginia.

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If you could tell us something about this conference, especially about what you specifically will be speaking on.

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Yes, this of course is going to be held at the Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Dale City.

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I believe it's Silverdale Avenue is the address there. And of course, those folk have had a great history of contending for the faith themselves.

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And at the same time, not only have been contending for the faith, but have been propagating the faith.

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And so we're looking forward very much to be with them in this mission's emphasis starts on Friday night.

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I believe the first service is a choir at seven o 'clock and then on Saturday and Sunday meetings,

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I believe, commencing at 930 in the morning each time. And so I'm going to have the privilege of speaking on Sunday on the subject of stewardship and missions.

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And of course, God touches the hearts of his people to support biblical missions.

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And what a privilege it is to be involved in obeying the Lord's command of going into all the world and preaching the gospel.

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But he also commanded us in Luke 7, 38, 39, I believe it is, give and it shall be given unto you a full measure, pressed down, shaken together, for with what measure ye meet,

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God shall meet again unto you, turn back unto you. So we're looking forward, of course, looking and listening to these other brothers.

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Of course, Brother David Dickerson and I are close friends. He's actually a secretary of Global Baptist Missions, another minister we have here and ardent supporter and a burden for revival.

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In fact, we held, we were in a meeting in the church that he had near the

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Atlanta airport that went on for four weeks every morning and every night.

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And my oldest daughter was converted in that meeting. And of course, she's a graduate in nursing from Bob Jones University since then.

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And so his burden for missions and it's very evident.

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And the college that he directs is a very, they do have some foreign students, but the only way they'll receive a foreign student is they have to guarantee that they will go back to their country and preach the gospel.

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So he's had a great influence with the truths of grace throughout the world as well.

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So we're grateful to be able to hear him. And I'm looking forward very much to hear the brother from Indianapolis, Indiana.

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I have not met him. That's my home state. I was born in that town, was just up there at Martinsville for a 50th anniversary service of a church that came out of a tent meeting between my junior and senior year.

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Another preacher boy, myself, from a Baptist church in Franklin, Indiana, held a tent meeting and out of that came a

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Baptist church, which is celebrating its 50th anniversary. So we're grateful, looking forward to these new men.

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I've never heard Brother Jacob preach either. So I'm looking forward to hearing some of these men

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I've heard about, known about, but haven't had the privilege of hearing to preach myself. Yes, I have had the privilege of spending some time once for several days in Indianapolis myself and spent some time with my dear friends

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Dick and Karen Eisenhardt, who live nearby, and I look forward to at one point returning there.

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Well, let's move into our topic for the day. It is, at least for the first hour, missions and holiness.

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Why are converts overseas rejecting the doctrines of sovereign grace? And you had mentioned to me before the program that you are saddened by what you have seen overseas, perhaps especially in Russia, where although you are obviously rejoicing that people are coming to Christ and getting saved, there is some pushback or even out -and -out rejection of the doctrines of sovereign grace that have been also nicknamed

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Calvinism, Reformed theology, the doctrines of free grace, etc. Tell us about this situation in Russia.

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Yes, of course. One of the ministries I have the privilege of directing is the Russian Bible Society, which was founded by an exiled

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Latvian who was trained at Spurgeon's College in London from 1903 to 1907, and he caught fire in the

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Welsh revival himself, and then established three large churches in the former

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Soviet Union, one in what is again St. Petersburg today, that's what it was then, but it had a name change twice, and then one in Moscow, and then the third one was in Riga, Latvia.

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And to answer the question that you're particularly zeroing in on, there are approximately five and a half million

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Russians here in America, and so there's a great Russian population to be evangelized, and there's some large

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Russian churches, both coasts. I think some of the larger ones are on the west coast, because I think many of those

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Russians there came at the time of the Bolshevik revolution, you know, to USA.

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And, you know, some church buildings see 2 ,000, the only only language heard in the congregation is

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Russian throughout the service, you know, and I had the privilege of making contact with churches over this area of western, in western

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Carolina, and through that, I spoke with a pastor, a dear pastor, who's actually from Moldavia, and is fluent of course in Romanian and Russian, sorry,

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Romanian and Russian, Moldavia is the tongue of, Romanian is the tongue of Moldavia. And anyway,

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I'd gone over to meet with him, and because I was concerned that I, we have about 2 ,000

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Slavic folk here in the Asheville, North Carolina area, and as far as I could tell, I could not find a

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Russian -speaking Baptist church, so I had it on my heart that somehow or another we might be able to team up, and if not help support a young man to start a

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Russian Baptist church here that was not charismatic or Pentecostal. And so anyway,

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I met with this pastor, asked my secretary to give me a name of some pastors, and this church is a large church, actually has five pastors there, and interesting enough, none of the pastors receive a salary.

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The attitude of the Russians is still the same as it was in Russia. It's a privilege for you to preach, so why should we pay you?

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And a tremendous congregation, and anyway,

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I had the privilege of going to his home, and we were just sitting there at the table, and he said to me, because I had given him,

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I don't know if it was that visit or another visit, I had given him a copy of the 1689

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Baptist Confession, and he said, made this statement to me, Brother Dume, I'm not a Calvinist, because Calvinists do not believe in holiness, and I said, dear brother,

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I said, that's, and I must confess, brother, that I'm trying to move away from the word

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Calvinist, because John Calvin and Martin Luther and Zwingli, all of them persecuted our forefathers, and murdered some folks, so I'm not interested, and I'm not of Paul, I'm not of Apollos, I'm of Christ, by God's grace, you know.

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So I said, well no, brother, that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we're chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him.

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I said, those folks who do not believe in holiness, who are professed Calvin, Calvinists, are probably either hyper -Calvinist or part of the whole new

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Calvinist movement that's scorching America right now, which is a false system of theology that doesn't expect and demand holiness of heart and life from their converts, you know.

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So it opened up an interesting conversation with him, you know, because they understand that the gospel is a life -changing message, and so if it doesn't produce holiness, they're not concerned to try to go on and just play church with the situation, you know.

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Well, we have to go to our first station break. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr.

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Bob Doom, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

29:48

I also want to make sure that you get the information for the conference coming up, and I will be repeating this, but the conference coming up this weekend.

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You can go to firstlovepublications .org, and if you scroll down as far down as you can scroll, you will see a box in the middle of the screen that says more information.

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You click on that, and you'll be directed to all the details that you need for the conference this weekend on missions.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the

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Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

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Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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And that is the man that Dr. Bob Doom and I were just discussing, or at least I was telling

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Dr. Bob Doom about him, Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Franklin Square, New York, now retired, and now hosting

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A Visit to the Pastor's Study, and I hope you begin listening to that program if you don't already.

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And it is being added to the lineup at First Love Radio, one of the ministries under the umbrella of First Love Publications and First Love Missions, founded by my friend

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Pastor Joe Jakowicz, who is also a mutual friend of my guest today,

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Dr. Bob Doom, and also a fellow speaker at the upcoming

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Missions Conference this weekend that is being held in Virginia. And once again, go to www .firstlovepublications

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.org, scroll all the way down to the bottom, click on More Information, and you will be directed to the website that has all the details that you need for this conference being held

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May 18th through the 20th in Virginia at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church, and that is located in Woodbridge, which is in Dale City, Virginia.

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Our topic today for the first hour, as many of you already know, is

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Missions and Holiness, Why Are Converts Overseas Rejecting the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace? And we could basically include that globally, including here in the

35:23

United States and North America, because it's not only an overseas phenomenon. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

35:31

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Before I go to any of our listener questions, Dr. Doom, in my experience, now you have a lot more years of experience as I do,

35:40

I was only saved in the mid -1980s, but in my experience, people are typically rejecting the doctrines of sovereign grace because they are rejecting something that's a figment of their imaginations that isn't even historic in representing what we believe as those who claim to be believers in doctrines of sovereign grace.

36:10

It seems that there are a lot of people, if not the majority that I have met, the vast majority, who are anti -Calvinist, quote -unquote, anti -reformed, anti -doctrines of sovereign grace.

36:22

They are merely parroting what other anti -Calvinists have said before that.

36:28

You could tell very often that these men have never read the works by the actual heroes that historically and accurately represent the doctrines of sovereign grace.

36:41

Would you concur with what I said, that that would be the majority of the problem, or would you disagree at all?

36:49

Well, I think you're right. I think that, again, I think that to give a positive side of why they reject it is because of a lack of personal holiness sometimes among those who propound that this is what they believe.

37:07

You know, and of course, the gospel is a holy -making gospel, and we're reminded in the book of Hebrews, follow peace with all men and holiness without which no man shall see the

37:20

Lord. And I think it comes across sometimes in the lifestyle, and so, but it's not only,

37:33

I think that the underlying thing is, of course, they have been taught against it. I know I'm in an area of North Carolina that has had some moves of God even back in the 50s here, and, you know, the folk love the whole

37:52

Bible, and many of the preachers will preach truth, but if you try to put it into a system for them, they'll reject that because they've been taught against, and that's why

38:04

I said I'm rejecting even the use, I think, of the word Calvinism, the word

38:09

Baptist first and foremost. I'm a Baptist first and foremost, you know, and so I think that's part of the rejection is because they don't see holiness of heart and hand in some who profess it, and then second, they've been just taught against it, just like you mentioned.

38:27

I do appreciate the great emphasis I received at BJU on evangelism and still love to sing to him.

38:33

I sang in preacher boys, Souls for Jesus is my battle cry, and so I think sometimes they also equate what we believe with non -evangelism, you know, and so I think that hinders the cause because we certainly know the commands to holiness and the commands to assemble ourselves together in a church house.

39:00

Also, there are commands to evangelize the lost and the undone, so it would be great to see more folk who love grace out preaching in the open air, you know, and even some,

39:13

I don't think door -to -door visitations finished in America, you know, so I think it's a two -fold thing.

39:21

One, they've been taught against it, and then sometimes, just like you say, it's been ignorant rhetoric they've heard and a perception that's not historically correct and biblically correct.

39:35

Right. Well, regardless of whether or not you approve of an attachment to the name of John Calvin, he has certainly been slandered and caricatured and misrepresented.

39:47

I can still vividly remember a very popular, world -renowned evangelist that is connected with Calvary Chapel.

39:57

I can still remember hearing him on the radio station that I worked for for 15 years saying that there are people out there who believe that you can come to Christ, be saved, and then live like the devil for your entire life and go to heaven.

40:11

That isn't in the Bible. John Calvin made that up. Well, that's obviously ridiculous. John Calvin said nothing even remotely close to that, which was reflective of the fact that the man saying this never read a page of the

40:23

Institutes or anything else Calvin wrote, never read the Puritans, obviously, and probably overlooked the fact that Charles Haddon Spurgeon, one of the great heroes of Sovereign Grace Baptist, was indeed a full -blown five -pointer in regard to those doctrines.

40:42

And so the issue is that the doctrines of the false

40:51

Christianity of easy believism and cheap grace that teach that a person can live an unrepenting life and a repentant -less life, can live immorally without any ongoing evidence of repentance and grief and mourning over sin and so on, without any ongoing evidence of allegiance and love for Christ, albeit imperfect, this is not a possible belief when you tie all the doctrines that we cherish together.

41:27

I mean, isn't this true? I mean, especially when you look at perseverance and preservation of the saints.

41:32

You could comment on that. Yes, well, you know, I guess

41:38

I can illustrate it. I was here in Western Carolina, went to a

41:43

K -Mart, and the gal had some scripture tattooed on her arms, and I thought, well, that's unusual.

41:50

Of course, that's unscriptural, but they have scripture tattooed, and so I made a comment.

41:57

I said to her, I said, well, you know, I'm a saved Baptist. She said, a saved

42:03

Baptist. I said, there are two kinds of Baptists. There's saved Baptist and lost

42:08

Baptist. And I said, the saved Baptist have a changed life and want to worship the

42:15

Lord and enjoy his fellowship and love assembling together with his people and love to study the

42:22

Word of God. And she said to me very quickly, oh, don't you believe in what's saved always saved?

42:29

I said, ma 'am, I do believe in the security of the believer, but what you're stating is an unbiblical statement.

42:36

You see, a person becomes a possessor of eternal life, and that's the life of God.

42:45

That's a changed life. And then I offered her a gospel leaflet, and she said,

42:51

I don't want your track. And I think that characterizes a lot of folk in our area who say, well,

43:03

I'm saved, but there's no evidence. And of course, 2 Corinthians 5, 17 is the great scripture.

43:11

A touchstone there, isn't it? If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

43:18

Old things pass away and all things become new. But that would be perhaps the attitude of, and we meet that all the time.

43:28

My father -in -law used to say, he lived here in Western North Carolina, he said, don't ask anybody if they're saved.

43:34

He said, ask them, have you been supernaturally born again by the person and the work of the

43:39

Holy Ghost? And if they say, huh, well, you know, they don't know what salvation is.

43:48

Born from above. Yes, sir. Exactly right. Born again. And you reminded me of a conversation

43:58

I had many years ago, back in the 1990s with an old preacher, a reform preacher from Mississippi.

44:05

And when he found out that I was from New York, he said, with his very gravelly accent, he said, you got it easy being in New York.

44:15

You just got to get people saved. We got to get them lost and then get them saved. That's exactly, he's exactly right.

44:23

Just about everybody here, and of course, we're in a real, in our particular area, we have a real invasion of hell in our beautiful mountains here.

44:36

And we've had the craft breweries move in by the truckloads and the sodomites and the transvestites and all of these things that are godless, a

44:50

God -hating Supreme Court passed. And so we're in a real cultural conflict here in Western North Carolina.

44:59

And so it's very interesting, you know, that you have both crowds who many times do not just know of true salvation through the

45:10

Lord Jesus Christ. We have a listener in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Ted, who says, regarding the lack of enthusiasm for Calvinism in Europe, might it have something to do with the truism that those who most vigorously proclaim the doctrines of grace are precisely those least likely to demonstrate that grace to their

45:33

Christian brethren and to the world? Well, I don't think that's really a truism myself, because I've seen dead, cold, hateful, mean -spirited attitudes from Christians across the spectrum, or professing

45:48

Christians across the spectrum of doctrine. I've had that treatment against me and my sovereign grace -believing brethren from Armenians and those of varying stripes of anti -Calvinism.

46:01

But if you could respond to that yourself, Dr. Doom. Well, you know, it's always been puzzling to me, because, you know, we have contact, we print sometimes in Germany, and we have contact with some

46:16

German Baptists there. And of course, most of the German Baptist churches are

46:22

Armenian, you know, in their theology, in the same way with most of the continental churches.

46:29

I don't know if it's a backlash, and it could just be an evidence of the natural heart that they don't want

46:39

God quite to be God, and do what he wills with his soul. And of course, that doesn't negate our responsibility to tell every sinner that there's a

46:50

Christ who died, and call them to repentance from sin and faith in the

46:55

Lord Jesus Christ. And so I think, of course, most of it probably flows out of, for example, we were missionaries in Scotland.

47:06

They're about 25 years ahead of us in their acceptance because of the brainwashing of the

47:12

BBC, British Broadcasting Corporation, and the public schools.

47:19

And so their rejection of God, and then the public schools have done their number on, you can do it as well there, you know what

47:31

I'm saying. So again, when you're brought face -to -face with the sovereign God who demands that you meet him on his terms, rather than your presumed terms, then the natural man rebels against such a theology, you know, and that God will do with his creatures as he wills.

47:55

And he works all things out to the counsel of his own will. Get a little bit more detailed about the current state of Scotland.

48:02

I know that breaks the hearts of many people, even if they've never been there, who love the Doctrines of Grace and many of their heroes that have edified them in writing, many of them long gone from the earth and fellowshiping with Christ in eternity, but their hearts are broken to learn that Scotland has declined so far from a day when the

48:26

Doctrines of Sovereign Grace were flowing from that country. If you could tell us about this.

48:33

Yes, again, I would attribute that mainly to the fact that there has not been any recent cultural changing revivals.

48:48

You know, Wales probably had the most revivals, and then followed by, of course, Scotland, and then we're probably third as to the frequency of real, genuine revival.

48:59

And I don't know, I think that part of it has been the public school system, and part of it has been the television, the media.

49:11

But, of course, the biggest thing that's happened in Scotland in the last year since we were there,

49:18

I know when we were there for the first time, the Church of Scotland officials had a march with the

49:24

Roman Catholics in the city of Edinburgh. Wow. And one of my friends, who actually pastored a

49:35

Sovereign Grace Church in Glasgow, was walking along beside the moderator, and he said to him,

49:43

Judas had his candlelight procession. And, of course, then since that time, they have rejected, of course, the

49:54

Westminster Confession of Faith as their standard. And to illustrate it quickly, a dear friend of ours, we had two bookshops in Great Britain, one in Belfast, one in Edinburgh, and when we left that ministry over there, we turned over to a

50:10

Scotsman. And he had a friend come into his bookshop there in Scotland, and he said,

50:15

I want to talk about my church. He said, are you in the Church of Scotland? He said, yes. He said, what are you doing in that apostate thing?

50:22

He said, I don't want to even talk with you. He said, well, I want to talk about my ministry. He said, well, I really don't want to talk about this.

50:28

He said, well, it's a woman. He said, well, why are you in a church where a woman? What's wrong with you? And he said, well, she's got a child.

50:39

He said, well, that happens, you know. Well, she's just had a second child. He said, well, that happens too.

50:46

And he said, well, what's the deal? He said, she doesn't have a husband. So here's the declension.

50:53

And then another Sovereign Grace pastor in the city of Glasgow, I just talked with him within a month or so ago here, we published a couple books, one book that he's written on prayer, said the political parties have been taken over either by lesbians or by sodomites, the four political parties in Scotland.

51:17

And so, you know, what our government has set us up for is exactly what the

51:24

British government set themselves up for, you know. But again, the only answer is the church getting thoroughly right with God, individually being filled with the

51:34

Holy Ghost, walking in the Holy Ghost, and seeking the face of our God, who's been gracious to send us

51:41

Revival. That's our only hope, as far as I can see. It'll always be the element

51:46

God will use if he turns us again, we'll be preaching. God raise up another John the

51:51

Baptist or John Charles Spurgeon or somebody else, amen, to call us back to Christ.

51:59

Amen. And so that's the declension I see, you know, there in Scotland.

52:06

Breaks my heart, because it's a declension since we were there, you know, in the 60s.

52:11

Well, we have to conclude our interview now, because we need to go to an elongated break that Grace Life Radio 90 .1

52:18

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us, so we have to be off the air for the first hour by 54 minutes into the broadcast.

52:28

But I want to make sure our listeners have all of your information. Revival literature can be found at revivallit .org.

52:37

Do you have any other contact information that you care to share? Well, it's actually revivallit .bellsouth

52:48

.net would be the contact information as well. Oh, the email address, yeah. Yes, the email address.

52:55

I have a toll -free number, 800 -252 -8896, and certainly it's been my privilege to be with you on the broadcast.

53:03

Will we get a chance to see you? Are you going to be able to come to the conference? No, not this time around, but I will,

53:09

God willing, be at something in the future, because I know that Pastor Joe Jakowicz, one of your fellow speakers there, he and I are involved in a lot of things together, especially now that Iron Trip and Zion Radio is on the roster for First Love Radio.

53:24

So, God willing, I will see you at some point, but if not this site of glory, we'll meet there in eternity.

53:29

Amen. What a glorious Savior we have to go and see. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you, Dr. Dune.

53:35

Thank you for the opportunity, sir. My pleasure, brother. And don't go away, folks, because we have joining us momentarily.

53:43

After our elongated break, we have Dr. Erskine Dodson, who is also one of the speakers at the upcoming

53:52

Bible conference in Virginia that we have been discussing. That's Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Woodbridge, which is

53:59

Dale City, Virginia. Please don't go away, and send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. God willing, we'll be back after these messages from our sponsors.

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where you can send an email to our guest, our second guest today, Dr. Erskine Dodson, Director of Global Missions at Oasis of Hope Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

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He's going to be speaking during this final hour of the program on the need for a global mindset in the prayer, support, and missionary efforts of the local church, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

01:09:52

Erskine Dodson. Hello Chris, it is a pleasure to be on your station.

01:09:58

Amen, well it's a pleasure to have you on the show and I'm looking forward to this interview and many more.

01:10:04

Before we go into your personal testimony of salvation, since you are a first -time guest, tell our listeners something about Oasis of Hope Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

01:10:15

Oasis of Hope Baptist Church, they have been in existence for about 50 years. It is a good solid

01:10:21

Bible teaching preaching church and they have a strong passion for mission and I was the pastor of Trinity Baptist Church for 14 years.

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I did church planting in upstate New York for about 20 years, but about three years ago,

01:10:40

God led me to step out of the senior pastorate position and began to start a global ministry.

01:10:48

Our primary focus is training Christian leaders, especially pastors and church leaders within their cultural context, indigenous leaders, equipping them to do the work of the ministry.

01:11:03

And Oasis of Hope gave me a call and said they have a passion to do exactly what

01:11:10

I am doing and would I come and oversee their global mission. They have been a tremendous help, a tremendous blessing, and have propelled this gospel in various countries in Africa, the

01:11:24

Caribbean, and the southern part and the northern part of India. Well I know that your website is gettooasis .net

01:11:33

and that two, by the way, is the number two, the numeral two, not the word. Gettooasis .net

01:11:40

and I love the film when you click on the website of the person walking in the sand.

01:11:45

It's pretty impressive there. And tell us, if you could, about what you will be personally speaking on at the upcoming conference on missions at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Woodbridge, Virginia.

01:12:03

They have given me the topic preparation for mission, and I want to deal with three basic areas.

01:12:12

First of all, authentic conversion before God, authentic testimony before the people of God, and authentic training for the mission of God.

01:12:26

Great, and the theme of the entire conference, the overall or umbrella theme, is

01:12:31

Missions God's Way. And for more information, you can go to First Love Publications, their website, and that's firstlovepublications .org.

01:12:45

Scroll all the way down until you get to the middle of the screen at the very bottom that says more information in a rectangular box.

01:12:54

Click on that and you will be taken to the website that has all the details that you need for the conference this weekend.

01:13:01

That's firstlovepublications .org. Scroll all the way down to more information, and we will be repeating this,

01:13:09

God willing, before the program is over because we want as many of you, especially those in the Virginia area, to attend this conference, if at all possible.

01:13:18

Well, now, as we promised, let's hear a summarized version of your testimony of salvation, the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what the

01:13:30

Lord used providentially in his sovereign plan for you to lead you to himself and save you.

01:13:36

Sure. I grew up about two hours south of Woodbridge, the Dale City area, at the age of eight.

01:13:44

I was baptized in a Baptist church. I had never heard a clear gospel throughout those 20 some odd years, but I became very committed to the church.

01:13:57

As I was committed to the church, I began to sing in the church with my mom.

01:14:03

Ultimately, I began to teach Sunday school. I went off to college in Durham, North Carolina, and met my wife, and I told her, as we began to develop a friendship,

01:14:17

I said, if you want to hang with me, you have to be a church goer.

01:14:24

And she said I had been reading the Bible for 12 years. I do go to church, but I am not a

01:14:32

Christian. I was not a Christian, but I did not know I was not a Christian. So I was in church every

01:14:39

Sunday, and I shared with her, I said, Phyllis, if you want to be a Christian, you have to act like me.

01:14:46

Observe me. Mimic me, because I know I am a good person. And about two weeks later, she came back and said,

01:14:54

Erskine, I've been watching you, and I don't see any difference between you or myself. Well, we still began to court, and ultimately we got engaged, and we started working for...

01:15:07

We finished college and started working for Internal Revenue Service in D .C. We got married at the age of 21.

01:15:13

At the age of 24, still in church every Sunday, I started teaching

01:15:19

Sunday school in Northern Virginia area. Started reading the

01:15:24

Scriptures for the first time systematically, and then all of a sudden, I began to sense this emptiness in my life, and I told my wife,

01:15:34

I said, neither one of us was still saved, but we were in church. I'm singing in the choir. I'm ushering.

01:15:39

I'm being very much involved in church, and I sense something was missing. We had just built a nice house.

01:15:45

I was working as an accountant for Commerce Department in D .C., and I told my wife,

01:15:51

I said, I don't know what it is that's missing in my life, but I'm going to fast and pray, because I see that that's what they were doing in the

01:15:59

Scriptures. I'm going to fast and ask God to show me this emptiness. So she said,

01:16:04

I'll fast with you. So we fasted with our food or water for three days. The day we came off the fast, three people came up to our door from a church in Dale City, and to make a long story short, led us to Christ, and it changed our life forever.

01:16:24

Praise God. Now, I haven't established this yet. This is the first time I've ever interviewed. I have a hard time speaking today.

01:16:33

This is the first time I've ever interviewed you, but I'm assuming, although I might be wrong, that since you are speaking at this conference at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church, that you are a fellow believer in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, but they might have you there for just a specific expertise you have in a certain aspect of missions.

01:16:51

I don't know, but are you a believer in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace? Yes. As a matter of fact, the seminary that I attended, they were a

01:16:59

Sovereign Grace school. Pastor Gifford was my pastor.

01:17:05

He's the pastor of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church now, but I got the call of God under his ministry, and as I got the call of God in his ministry,

01:17:14

I went off to the seminary and became very, very convinced of God's sovereignty in our salvation and in our life.

01:17:26

Well, praise God for that. I owe to the doctrines of grace. Amen. Well, praise God for that.

01:17:31

As a matter of fact, we established a church in upstate New York, and the name of the church was

01:17:39

Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in the inner city of Syracuse, New York. Oh, great.

01:17:44

Is it still in existence? Still in existence. Still in existence. It's been over 30 -plus years, and they're doing well.

01:17:51

Oh, praise God for that. Well, the theme that we have chosen today for our discussion is the need for a global mindset in the prayer support and missionary efforts of the local church.

01:18:03

I know that this is something that you lament over because you think that it is an issue that is sorely lacking in the church at large, even, dare

01:18:15

I say, within the African American church at large. If you could comment about this need for a global mindset.

01:18:24

Absolutely. I think all too often in our Bible -teaching churches in general, it seems like mission is gradually slipping from the mind and hearts of people.

01:18:37

People will pray for mission, but as far as understanding the need and having a compassion and a burden for missions,

01:18:45

I see that it's been very difficult oftentimes to get into even Bible -teaching, preaching churches, to even share your burden and share the heart.

01:18:54

And in the African American community, there is a tremendous lacking, and we have many churches called missionary

01:19:01

Baptist church. But in terms of our budget finances, because we need to promote, we need to propel, we need to give, and we need to go.

01:19:15

But all too often in many of our African American churches, you don't have that strong desire.

01:19:21

You may have social programs. You may have giving of clothing and food, and those things are good.

01:19:30

And we're not saying that if a person is not hungry, you don't feed him. But when you think of the

01:19:35

Great Commission, go therefore and make disciples of all ethnos, all people groups, and baptize them and then teach them.

01:19:44

That's the discipling part. It's very much lacking in the African American churches and many of our

01:19:52

Bible -teaching churches in general. If you look at our mission budget, our mission budget is very poor, very low when it comes to supporting missions and supporting missionaries.

01:20:05

I think it would be good if a church would really consider having at least 10 % of its budget, 10 % of its financial giving to go towards mission.

01:20:19

I also believe, Chris, that in order to get a burden, you have to be exposed.

01:20:25

When you look at Nehemiah chapter 1, Nehemiah inquired, how are the brethren doing?

01:20:31

Once he got his information, it burdened him. He wept, he fasted, and he prayed.

01:20:41

And God in His sovereignty sent him over there to Jerusalem, and he examined the situation for himself.

01:20:48

And in chapter 2, the Scripture tells us, Nehemiah said, I have told no one what God now has placed in my heart to do at Jerusalem.

01:20:56

But Nehemiah inquired, he got his answer, the walls were broken down, and so forth and so on.

01:21:03

He wept, he cried, he prayed, he confessed, and then he went over there to see for himself.

01:21:09

One of the things that helped me with global mission as a senior pastor, I started taking short -term mission trips to Ghana to various, about five different countries in Africa, Tanzania, Liberia, just teaching, just teaching in the colleges, doing some preaching, being exposed, and I saw tremendous need.

01:21:36

People will say, well, there are plenty of needs here in America, but if you go to developing countries, you will see that there is a vast difference.

01:21:45

We have Bible colleges and seminaries, and Bible -teaching churches, and Christian radio stations,

01:21:51

Christian bookstores, and we are exposed to, we are inundated with so much Christian literature and materials and preaching and teaching.

01:21:58

If we want it, we can get it. But what we do, I just got back from Uganda, we go in certain places, way out into the bush, where you have men that are pastoring, men that are preachers and church leaders, have no way of even getting to your cities like Kampala and Uganda and various places just to get some kind of training.

01:22:23

So we actually, when we go to East Africa, we take the classroom into the villages.

01:22:29

We have a four -year curriculum, a three -year curriculum, and a one -year certificate program. So that,

01:22:35

I think, is a real need in both African -American churches and our Caucasian churches as well, to be exposed and quiet.

01:22:46

Amen. We have a listener from Hartsdale, New York, Bobby, who asks, are you familiar with the work in Zambia of Dr.

01:22:59

Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, who

01:23:05

Chris Arnzen has had as a guest on his show a number of times, and he has lamented that the

01:23:11

Word of Faith Pentecostal and charismatic movement over there in Africa is infinitely more dangerous than what we experience here on the shores of North America.

01:23:22

Do you concur, and have you met and cooperated with this brother on evangelistic efforts? No, I have not met him.

01:23:31

I was in Zambia probably about 15 years ago when I was a full -time professor at Crosswood Bible College, and they sent me over there to do some teaching and training for a week, but no,

01:23:42

I have not met this brother. I do know the doctrine of Pentecostalism and so forth has become very pervasive in various parts of Africa.

01:23:53

Even a good number of Baptist churches are becoming, I guess you may call it,

01:23:58

Baptist -Costal. Huh, yeah, and as I think our guest accurately summarized what

01:24:06

Dr. Mbewe has said about the experiences of, even though the

01:24:12

Word of Faith and the extreme forms of Pentecostalism here are bad enough, over there they seem to have even taken on a new level of insanity and heresy that have even combined some of the practices of the witch doctors with just a sprinkling of Christian language onto the practices.

01:24:35

Very strange stuff going on there. Yeah. Go ahead, I'm sorry.

01:24:42

Yeah, good, solid doctrine is much needed, and you find that people want to have some kind of experience, and they believe they're getting additional revelation from God through experiences and through gibberish, as many will call it, tongue, and there's this prosperity gospel, and there's this laying on of hands and so forth, and so there is an experience that people are said they are having, and they said, therefore it must be of God, because I can do this, and I can speak this, and I can say that.

01:25:20

I think of the scriptures. When the scripture says, well, Lord, I have done many miracles in your name, that's when Christ comes back to the earth, and I've done this in your name, and he says, apart from me,

01:25:31

I never knew you, and I just want to challenge people, just because you've had some kind of experience.

01:25:37

If it's not in conformity to the Word of God, you're going to have to say, you know, this is just an experience.

01:25:45

We need to have people that are inundated with the Word of God. You're going to look at the Word of God as the final authority for faith and practice.

01:25:53

If we don't do that, we will veer off, and we will veer off based on what we think and what we feel and what we have experienced, and then that becomes the authoritative fact in people's lives.

01:26:10

Amen. Amen, and not the Word of God. Amen. CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, asks,

01:26:18

I hope I am not breaking away from the main topic too much, but I was wondering what your guests' opinion might be of some of the recent hysteria where you have those in the

01:26:32

African -American community who are even involved in solid reform theology going too far with accusing white brethren of racism for reasons that don't seem to justify a slanderous caricature like that.

01:26:49

It seems to be eclipsing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Does your guest have any comments, and does he know what

01:26:54

I am speaking about? Can you articulate a little bit more on that?

01:26:59

Well, there are a number of African -American brothers and sisters in Christ who have taken on a mission, it seems, to dissect the wording and the practice of many within Christianity, especially the doctrines of grace and reform theology, and they seem to be looking for racism under every rock and accusing people who are innocent of this sin, because I believe that racism is indeed a damnable sin, but it is also damnable to slander somebody for being guilty of it when they're not.

01:27:43

And so it seems to be a phenomenon going on lately that's becoming increasingly uncomfortable, and it seems that these issues of race are eclipsing the gospel, as our listener has suggested.

01:27:59

Even if you're not familiar with this recent phenomenon, isn't it a very dangerous thing when you focus on the color of people's skin to such an extent that you are really eclipsing the message of the gospel?

01:28:15

And it seems ironic, because some of the rhetoric that is coming from black Christians on this issue is really amazingly mimicking some of the rhetoric of white racists, you know what

01:28:28

I'm saying? Because they're elevating the topic of race to such a focal point and to such an extreme level of importance that sometimes it seems like it's a racism of a different flavor, if you follow me.

01:28:46

Yeah, I see what you're saying, and I do think that there is a group that feel ostracized, and because of their very negative experience, they have bought into and believe that there is a form of racism that has taken place.

01:29:08

Now I think also, Chris, that is on both sides, I'm going to be...

01:29:13

Oh, sure. And I think if somehow, I mean, when my wife and I got saved, we grew up on the

01:29:23

Jim Crow regime. Are you familiar with the Jim Crow regime? Oh yeah, oh yeah. We grew up, and we were in an all -black church in Northern Virginia.

01:29:30

Well, when I got saved, there were three white people knocking on our door, and they led us to Christ.

01:29:39

And they discipled us, and as they were discipling us every

01:29:44

Thursday night, I began to a desire for more substantive preaching from the pulpit, and I began to search through many churches trying to find that.

01:30:00

I did not find good, solid Bible teaching in Northern Virginia, it's in parts of Washington, D .C.,

01:30:07

and finally, we joined the church, which was a predominantly white church in Dale City, Virginia.

01:30:14

We joined that church. And after we joined, I began to look around, and I saw all the white faces.

01:30:22

Now, the music was different, and the preaching style was different, but I began to ask myself, what is the big deal with this racism?

01:30:31

How is it that we had to be on the back of the bus, or how is it that we could not, because there were

01:30:36

Blacks that were being turned away from Bible -teaching churches. And so, my thing is, if somehow, if we, as Blacks as well as whites, are willing to step across the racial or ethnic barrier and begin to build relationships with people on a one -on -one basis, we will begin to see that people are people, and they have the same basic needs.

01:31:07

Yes. I guess there's some diversity when it comes to culture and music and styles and of that nature, but when it comes to the basic needs of physical, spiritual, emotional, social, educational, you find that people have the same basic needs.

01:31:23

And there is a concern, there is a concern that I have, I think even in our political arena, it seems like that there has been a great divide, even among Christians.

01:31:33

Right. And I tell my wife, I say, it would be nice if we would just say, not a

01:31:40

Black Christian or a white Christian or a Black church, why can't we say, well, a person got arrested, he was a

01:31:47

Black man, why can't we just say a man? So somehow, there is a polarization upon ethnicities in our countries, and there is a pulling away, and if somehow, even if that guy is,

01:32:01

I feel like, is prejudiced, let's get this, let's step over the barrier and let's see if we can get to know him.

01:32:09

So the young man or the man who asked the question is a legitimate question, and I appreciate that.

01:32:15

But I do think sometimes we look out at a distance, at different people of different ethnicities, and don't allow ourselves to get closer to them, to begin to build a relationship with them, get to know them, and then begin to have that scholarship.

01:32:35

And it's so unfortunate that it's on both sides that we do have that problem. Amen. And by the way, you might find this alarming since you seem to be unfamiliar with the recent phenomenon that I'm talking about.

01:32:47

Some of the white brethren that are being accused of racism, the very reason that they're being accused of racism is for stating exactly what you just said.

01:33:00

Because some of these white brethren, like my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, for instance, has said that we need to be colorblind in our approach to the gospel, and that the blood of Christ unites us, and that the color of our skins and the content of melatonin in our skins is really immaterial and inconsequential, and that we are all members of one race, the human race.

01:33:27

Now that seems to be offensive to a number of prominent

01:33:32

African American preachers, teachers, authors, and conference speakers. It's amazing to me that that's offensive to them.

01:33:40

And they seem to be actually, perhaps unconsciously, mimicking the white segregationist mindset that God made us different colors and different ethnicities because this is a fulfillment of what will happen in the book of Revelation, where those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation are worshiping the

01:34:04

Lamb, and that if we remove distinction that we are heretical.

01:34:12

And that's ironic because that is the very thing that many white races use to perpetuate segregation.

01:34:18

So it's a very baffling and confusing thing that I'm speaking about. Absolutely. And I think a lot of it is out of negative experiences.

01:34:30

A lot of it, you know, even our Caucasian brothers as well as our African American brothers have experienced racism, have experienced very bad relationships, adverse situations.

01:34:45

But somehow as Christians, we are supposed to be different, and I think we have to teach it.

01:34:51

We have to teach with God there's no respect to a person. We have to teach racism and prejudice is sin, and we have to be an example.

01:35:01

We have to be an example and be proactive in seeking to recognize that the gospel of Christ and the

01:35:08

Great Commission is for all people, and we are. I mean, you know, the

01:35:14

Jews had that real struggle. That's right. And I even go through Samaria, and even in Acts chapter 6, you saw the

01:35:22

Grecian widows being neglected. Right. Peter had that problem, and even in Acts 10,

01:35:28

God had to tell him the third time, Peter, go. He was so inundated with culture that he could not hear

01:35:34

God speak. And I think sometimes we allow our culture, we allow bad experiences to blind us to what the

01:35:43

Scripture says. Amen. Yeah, in fact, that is exactly what I have said to some of my acquaintances who are perpetuating the,

01:35:54

I believe, the lie that a person cannot be a racist if they are black or a member of a minority that has experienced persecution.

01:36:04

I have brought them back to the fact that in the New Testament, the most glaring rebuke of racism or bigotry involves

01:36:14

Jews being rebuked for being racist or bigoted against Gentiles, and yet the

01:36:20

Jews were a persecuted minority, an enslaved and horribly treated group of people since they came from Abraham's loins,

01:36:33

I mean, you know, for centuries. Yes, so we have to recognize the fact that it is something that comes from the heart.

01:36:40

I think a man, a man naturally has the propensity to think and practice and believe that which is contrary to God, and I think also,

01:36:51

I do believe it can also be passed down from parents to children. My prejudice, my preconceived ideas about people, you know, it's just something that we need to be face -to -face with and address the issue and say, look, to our children, they may be of a different color, a different ethnicity, but they are a person, and you must not allow peer pressure or what people think or say cause you to think differently because they are a human being just like you are.

01:37:24

Amen, and we have to go to our final break. It's a very brief break, and if you'd like to join us on the air before we run out of time with a question for Erskine Dodson, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:37:37

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors,

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That's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Aronson. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the second hour with about 15 minutes to go is

01:43:19

Dr. Erskine Dodson, Director of Global Missions at Oasis of Hope Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

01:43:26

He is one of the speakers on the roster at the upcoming Bible Conference that's being held in Virginia at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Woodbridge, Virginia, which is

01:43:36

Dale City. And for more information on that conference, go to firstlovepublications .org.

01:43:44

Firstlovepublications .org. Scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page where it says More Information in a rectangular box at the very bottom in the center.

01:43:53

Click that, and you will be taken to all the details that you need about this conference. Dr. Dodson, other than the lack of funding in the budget for world missions, do you think that there are just too many churches that don't even care enough about foreign missions to even try to develop a budget for that reason?

01:44:21

Absolutely. There is no question in that area. What I would recommend, because when you think of the

01:44:28

Great Commission, we do start in our Jerusalem. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.

01:44:34

But if you look at Acts 1 -8, you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you. You shall be witnesses to me in Jerusalem, and in Judea, and Samaria, and ultimately to the most parts of the world.

01:44:48

Many churches, you know, statistics tell us that less now than 10 % of people really share their faith, and that's really, really, really sad.

01:44:57

I would recommend if churches don't have an outreach program.

01:45:03

I mean, you don't have to necessarily have a Thursday night's calling program or a Saturday morning calling program, but I think people need to be trained to effectively share the

01:45:15

Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not this easy belief, not this easy beliefism, not this repeating the

01:45:21

Lord's prayer, the sinner's prayer. I just personally have problems with people just saying, okay, repeat this prayer, then you're saved.

01:45:30

Right. You can lead people into easy beliefism, but I do believe that our churches are becoming less and less evangelistic.

01:45:39

People are, we are still surrounded by unsaved people, and yet so many

01:45:45

Christians or professed Christians don't share the Gospel, and I think it should be a conscious, intentional effort when you go out into the world among people, whether it's on your job or your mechanic, you should be praying or going to the gym, you should be praying and being intentional in sharing a clear

01:46:08

Gospel message, and I think sometimes people in our churches need to be properly trained to effectively share and defend their faith.

01:46:20

Now, if you want to have a calling program where people are going out, I think that is wonderful. That's what happened to me in Dell City.

01:46:26

After I got saved and joined the church there in Dell City, I got under the auspices of our outreach minister, and he was going out and taking me under his wings, and I observed him sharing the

01:46:39

Gospel, but I had a lot of things that I had to memorize and go through before I went out.

01:46:45

But I think we need to get back to the basics of sharing the Gospel. It's so easy to say, oh, believe

01:46:51

Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, but you've got to go into more detail.

01:46:57

People need to know that they are depraved. People need to know that they are wretched, wicked sinners, and people need to understand that Jesus Christ came and gave his life for sinners, and there needs to be a repentance in turning to Christ, believing in his death, burial, and resurrection, and explaining that.

01:47:20

So I think we need to start with some of the basic things like that and teaching other people to share their faith.

01:47:27

And I think another area that's very important is I think especially pastors and key leaders begin taking short -term mission trips, because when you take short -term mission trips, a week or two weeks, when you take those mission trips, it's going to expose you, not only in your community, not only in your

01:47:48

Jerusalem, and not only in your Judea or Samaria, but it's going to expose you to the world.

01:47:54

I go to India, and I teach there in northern India, about six million idols in India alone.

01:48:03

And so if we're not willing to share the

01:48:08

Gospel where we are in our Jerusalem, and if we're not... I personally think if you're not going to be effectively sharing your faith here in your

01:48:18

Jerusalem, then you're not qualified. You're not... You need to prove yourself where you are.

01:48:24

And when you prove yourself where you are, I believe God says, if you're faithful over a few things, I will make your rule over a minute.

01:48:30

God will expand your borders. God will give open doors for you. But I think, again, in our churches, how can we have a budget where we're not even sharing?

01:48:40

How do we have a budget when we don't even see the need? So I think we need to begin to see the need of sharing our faith where we are.

01:48:47

I think we need to begin to send other key leaders. I think pastors ought to take short -term mission trips.

01:48:53

I think there should be... I just got back from Uganda, and we just brought... We took four of our people from OH the

01:49:00

Pope, Baptist Church, a Sunday school teacher, Deacon, and his wife, and my wife. And they were telling me, they said,

01:49:06

Dr. Dodson, I hear your slide presentation. I hear you're talking about the ministry and the challenge and the difficulties, but boy, those slides did not do full justice until we came and we saw for ourselves the need.

01:49:21

The people coming 20 miles on foot just to hear the word. Villages are crying out, would you please come back and teach us some more?

01:49:29

No literature, no Bibles, no Bible colleges, no seminary. And so they said, I never saw that.

01:49:36

You know, living here in the West, we are so blessed. So I really think, Chris, that we need to begin where we are, but don't see where we are.

01:49:46

Don't get so comfortable. Don't get in our comfort zone. Just don't sit in our...

01:49:52

And another problem we have sometimes is we want to invite people to church. Come to our church.

01:49:57

It's a Bible -teaching church. Well, what about inviting them to Christ? Because the church is really for believers.

01:50:03

I'm not saying unsaved people should not attend the church. I'm not saying you don't invite unsaved people. But I think the main thing, we want to invite people to a saving knowledge and experiencing

01:50:12

Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Amen. So that's a little bit of my passion there, is somehow, if we can get people out of the pew and into the areas of the straight soul, the areas where they live, become extremely intentional.

01:50:32

If you pray and say, God, you open the door for me. I go to the gym on a regular basis and I pray,

01:50:38

God, would you open the door? And I tell you, 95 % of the time when I'm at the gym,

01:50:44

I share my faith. Sometimes people will just come up to me and just ask or make a statement.

01:50:49

Oh, we need more religion, don't we? I say, no, we don't need any more religion. We need people with a relationship and that's through prayer.

01:50:55

You know, God will give you an open door if you ask. Amen. Many times he'll give us open doors, but our mindset is not there.

01:51:05

We are so comfortable within our churches, with our choirs and our worship teams and good preaching of the word, and we need good preaching of the word.

01:51:16

But then we are content to go home and come back the next Sunday. And we are supposed to go out of that church door with the mindset of global ministry, but starting in our

01:51:28

Jerusalem. And I think many times it needs to be taught. Amen. We have

01:51:34

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, although you are promoting short -term mission trips, do we not have to be very careful as not to send out our young people on short -term missions trips that are more like play vacations?

01:51:51

I have heard from missionaries overseas that very often these types of trips that the youth are involved in are more of a disruption than a help to those on the mission field and very often are wasting valuable financial resources to send these children there when they could be used more positively in other areas.

01:52:10

Do you agree with my assessment? I do agree with that very, very much.

01:52:15

I think when we are going to take short -term mission trips, first of all, I think that they should be approved or be vetted by the leadership within that church.

01:52:26

But sometimes people may want to take mission trips and there may be some serious problems and issues that they are having in their life.

01:52:33

So I think especially the pastor needs to approve those that are going to take mission trips, especially if they are going to be ministering.

01:52:42

There needs to be some proving it. There needs to be some faithfulness where they are in their local church.

01:52:47

I think also when we go on a mission trip, I like to take people to be involved.

01:52:53

Once they have been approved by leadership, this person has proven themselves to go on this mission trip.

01:53:02

I think that they should be involved, but we need to look at their gifts and their talents. Just don't put them in any place just because there is an open door and opportunity there.

01:53:12

Now they want to go and just observe that spine, but they need to understand that we are taking a mission trip to learn, to understand.

01:53:20

This is not a vacation. It is rough at times. It is tough. There are some conveniences we have here in the

01:53:27

U .S. that you may not have there. There needs to be some kind of orientation, but there needs to be an understanding that this mission trip is not a vacation.

01:53:35

This mission trip is to expose you to what the Great Commission calls all of us to do.

01:53:42

Amen. Well, I'd like you to have now about three minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air today.

01:53:52

Pray. The harvest is plentiful. Yes, we have needs here in America, but there is a global cry that people need to hear the pure, unadulterated

01:54:07

Word of God. And Christ says the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are still so few.

01:54:15

Pray that God will raise up from even your church. Everybody's not called to go. We understand that, but there is a need, so pray that God will raise up more men and women that can be thrust forth into this harvest field.

01:54:32

You may not be able to physically go, but you can give. Ministry takes finances as well.

01:54:41

A global ministry, just air travel alone is $1 ,500 to $2 ,000, not even including hotels.

01:54:48

And even when we go to various parts of East Africa, we have to buy their lunch.

01:54:56

We pay for their lunch. We have to buy a cow, buy goats and so forth, and cassava to feed them.

01:55:03

So ministry takes money. And so I don't like to talk about money. I really don't.

01:55:08

But there needs to be an understanding. You ought to look at having a budget within your church for global missions.

01:55:17

And you need to pray, Lord, who? You can't support everyone, but we should be, because when you are supporting financially, you're saying,

01:55:28

I am partnering with you. Finances is dealing with partnership.

01:55:33

Partnership is prayer. Partnership is giving financially, and partnership is sometimes going and helping and assisting as well.

01:55:43

So we need to think globally. We need to think more than where we live. We need to go beyond our comfort zone and ultimately to the uttermost parts of the world in a global mindset of praying, giving, and at times going.

01:55:59

And how can our listeners specifically pray for you and your specific missionary endeavors?

01:56:08

Pray for power, pray for protection. Some places we go to is not

01:56:15

Christian -friendly. And pray for provision. We have probably right now about 70 % of our support.

01:56:22

So pray that God will lay it upon the hearts of some to give financially, but also pray for our protection.

01:56:32

And Paul, when he was writing to the church at Ephesus, he said, pray for me that as I open my mouth,

01:56:38

I will speak with boldness the pure and adulterated Word of God. So I appreciate prayer for power, prayer for protection, and pray for provision, and pray for discernment, wisdom from the

01:56:52

Lord. Amen. And as you were speaking, I was watching again the film that's on your

01:56:58

Oasis of Hope Baptist Church website, where you see footsteps or feet walking in the sand.

01:57:04

And then as soon as you were talking about prayer, the legs in the film collapse on their knees in obvious prayer.

01:57:14

A very beautiful image that you have there. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information.

01:57:21

First of all, don't forget about the conference that's being held this weekend on the theme,

01:57:27

Missions God's Way at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Woodbridge, which is

01:57:33

Dale City, Virginia. That website address, for more information, is firstlovepublications .org.

01:57:43

Firstlovepublications .org. Scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page where you see more information in the middle of the screen in a rectangular box.

01:57:50

Click on that, and that will take you to all the information that you need. Dr. Erskine Dodson is one of the speakers, along with Dr.

01:57:59

Robert Doom, Dr. David Dickerson, and my friend Pastor Joe Jakowicz. That's this weekend, the 18th through the 20th of May.

01:58:09

And then also, don't forget about the Oasis of Hope Baptist Church website, which is gettooasis .net,

01:58:16

and the two in there is actually the number, not the word, gettoooasis .net.

01:58:21

Any other contact information that you care to share, Dr. Dodson? Our commissioning church,

01:58:29

Trinity Baptist Church, where our pastors, they are still receiving and handling our finances.

01:58:36

So if anyone chooses to send something to Trinity Baptist Church, if they do, in terms of support, it will be for Dodson's Global Ministry.

01:58:46

It's Trinity Baptist Church, 3162 Baltimore Avenue, Indianapolis, Indiana, 46218, in care of Dodson's Global Missions.

01:59:00

If anyone wanted to make a contribution, and they have a lot of funds, and they are 501c3 as well.

01:59:08

Great, and you can email me, if you didn't write that down, chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:59:16

and I'll make sure I get you that information. I want to thank you for being our guest today, brother. I want to thank everybody who listened.

01:59:22

I want you all to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.