A Tale of Two Brothers...

Hey, good evening. This is Truth in Love, and I'm so glad and so thankful that you're able to have an opportunity some time to spend with me, to watch the video, to listen.

However, you come across the video, I'm so thankful and really appreciate you being here and spending time with us.

This is Truth in Love, and I get Truth in Love from Ephesians chapter 4 verse 15 where Paul says,

But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into him. Who is the head?

Even Christ. And I want to continue to doing that even tonight. And this is a long -awaited period of time, a long -awaited video that I've wanted to do with a brother, and a brother that I have differences with.

And I hope you will enjoy the video. I hope you will be edified by the video. You'll be encouraged.

If you do not know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, that's our prayer that you would come to know him as your

Lord and Savior. But I believe this is one of the aspects, of course, that is covered under this verse where Paul says we're to grow up in all aspects into him.

And so one of those aspects in our lives is understanding and realizing there are other believers, other

Christians that are out there that don't believe like I do, that don't think the same way

I do, but yet we're still brothers and sisters in Christ. We can we can get along and we can love one another and we want to grow up in that aspect into him who is the head even

Christ. And so I want to welcome tonight my guest, my brother

John. And John, if you have, if you'd like to introduce yourself, can you do that for us? Sure.

Sure. My name is John Jones. I'm a minister inside the Church of God and I'm a member of Real Life Community Church in Iron Station, North Carolina.

Got a I've got a lovely wife and four lovely daughters and I'm just thankful to be here with Brother Robert and I hope that we can show that we're more alike than we are different.

Anybody can, anybody can be led to the Lord in this conversation, then it's profitable. I'll do anything

I can help you. Absolutely. Absolutely. I did want to say this too. We like to pray at the end.

So if we can pray for you, all you have to do is type me. I'm not,

John, are you able to see the comments yet? I haven't seen any. I don't know how to work it. How do you work that part?

If you're able to get it pulled up, that's cool. If not, if we can pray for you, just type me.

I'll let John know that that you request prayer and we will pray for you at the end. If you watch the video or listen to it later, just send us a message and we'll be glad to pray for you then.

We would love to be able to do that. It'll be an honor and a privilege to do that. So with that being said, the discussion tonight between John and myself is a discussion between brothers.

As John said, he is not going to say that he's representing the church of God.

He's made that clear. He's just a member of that certain denomination and he's going to speak from his experience.

I come from a Baptist background and I'm going to speak from my experience. What we want to do first, let's just jump right in, dive in.

What we want to do first is probably what's on everyone's mind. When we think of different denominations, we first think of the differences.

And of course, obviously, there are differences or there wouldn't be different denominations.

That's pretty obvious, Robert. So what are the differences between John or the church of God and me and the

Baptist? We've discussed a little bit prior to this video and we want to discuss with you, share with you some of the things that we've talked about.

When I think of the differences, and I'm trying to think in general terms what those differences are, and I'm trying to think in terms of perception.

What is the perception? So me as a Baptist or me coming from a different denomination, not knowing much about another denomination or the church of God denomination, what is the most common perceptions?

And sometimes those perceptions can be misunderstandings, right? Would you agree with that?

Yes, sir. And so I've got down here my notes and I forgot to mention this to you.

I think we talked about it earlier, but one of the differences would be if you go into a church of God church or you go into a

Baptist church, you're going to see a difference in leadership structure, pretty much.

Okay. And from a Baptist perspective, when it comes to leadership, I think it's the more popular view because it's the most recent view and it's been the most popular for a while now.

You've got a single pastor and then you've got multiple deacons that serve the church.

As I've grown in scripture and as I've looked back at Baptist history,

I've learned that the Bible teaches and Baptists used to follow this form, this leadership structure, that the church would have a plurality or multiple elders with maybe one teaching, head teaching pastor, and then the church would have a plurality or multiple deacons who serve the church.

But the more popular one today is going to be your single pastor with multiple deacons and the individual

Baptist church is autonomous. So they send out an ad or however they want to advertise and then the people will send in their resumes and then they will conduct interviews and the church congregation hires the person they feel is most qualified to lead their church and they have no oversight other than that, other than themselves, who they want to be their pastor.

So what's the leadership structure like in the Church of God? It's a centralized leadership and there's overseers for district, state, and ultimately there's a general overseer over the entire thing, but churches have there's a voting procedure.

For instance, if I were to take a church or inquire to take a church,

I would the easiest way to do it is to go on the Church of God's website and pull up it's called a pastors blog and if there's a church pastor position open or like a senior pastor, it would be on there and then

I would email my resume to the overseer for and tell him which church that it's for and then

I would go to that church and typically you'd preach and then they would vote on you and if they wanted you to stay, if the church wanted you to stay, then you could stay and if the church voted for some other direction, then you didn't get the job.

The overseer doesn't appoint pastors so much as he he directs them and then the church can vote them one way or another.

But there is an overseer process. I hope that answered your question.

In terms of inside the body or the congregation, there's pastors and if the church is large enough, there's usually a pastor's council and that would be your deacons,

I guess would be what you'd call them in the Baptist church and those pastor's council members are

I want to say that the pastor appoints them but I believe that there is also in some cases,

I think you can vote but I want to say the pastor appoints his pastor's council. I've never been a pastor even though the minutes would say the exact ruling on how that works.

Got you. And then I think did you have anything else to say on leadership?

No, I don't think so. I think that's about it. Okay, and then going in the continuing on with the differences.

I'm thinking about the perception. I'm thinking about the the general perception. Thinking about an outsider looking in someone would say a difference between a

Baptist or Baptist church and the church of God church would be how they view and apply the gifts of the

Holy Spirit. And let's just tackle these one at a time and we don't have to spend a much length of time on them or however much you would like to is fine with me.

Just share your thoughts as long as it takes. The first one is healing.

The gift of healing and we were discussing this one earlier. And I want to make this caveat as well.

And I think John agreed with this and it's similar in the church of God.

But in the Baptist church, there are so many branches on the tree of Baptists.

And you have different types of Baptists and even

Baptists who go to the same church, you can have folks that have differences in theology.

And so when it comes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and this is going to be some larger terms, but I'll define them for us.

You have cessationist and non -cessationist. Excuse me. And what a cessationist is, is someone who believes that the gifts of the spirit have ceased.

They stopped with the closing of the canon of scripture and they don't apply to Christians after that.

A non -cessationist, of course, would just be the opposite of that. Or continuationist, someone who believes that the gifts continue and they're available and they're given still through the

Holy Spirit to individuals today. And so I would consider myself to be a cessationist.

But I am friends and go to church with people who are

Baptists who are non -cessationist. So there are

Baptists who hold different opinions in this area as well. Typically, I would say and I think

John agrees with me that typically overall your Baptists are going to lean more cessationist and your

Church of God are probably going to lean more non -cessationist or continuationist.

So with healing and I'm just going to give you my perspective on these gifts and we're starting with healing.

So that particular gift as far as you know, we think about examples in scripture,

John and I mentioned a few of these earlier. You have Jesus, of course, healing people.

You have the Apostles healing people. You have people touching the hem of Christ's garment.

You have people touching a handkerchief of Paul and they were healed.

That particular gift of healing given to an individual to heal someone,

I believe has ceased. If in a way it continues, in my opinion,

I believe that healing continues in a spiritual type healing.

So God can use us in such a way that we can minister to someone and in healing their spirit, if that makes sense or a emotional healing, not necessarily a physical healing, but I believe that that gift in my opinion as a cessationist, that particular gift given to an individual has ceased.

And John is going to explain a little bit more about his perspective, but we also talked about how within the charismatic movement, if you're familiar with that language, the church of God, I think would fall under that category of the charismatic movement, but within the charismatic movement you have different branches and on one side of the movement you have an individual and he

I'm going to name his name just because he's the most popular one. You have someone like Benny Hinn who would be considered a faith healer or someone who would claim to have the gift of healing.

And that's what I would say has ceased. So John, what is your perspective on the gift of healing?

So the way I understand it, there's no one person obtains or is the bearer of a gift.

The gifts are the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit owns the gifts. God working through the

Holy Spirit may minister through men, but this is a work of God. At the end of the day, if God heals a man or anybody for that matter of any affirmity or any kind of affliction, it's

God who gets the glory. No man would get glory for that. That would be a work of the Holy Spirit through a man.

And that's kind of been my understanding of how even the apostles, how it worked with the apostles, that God worked and moved on men and through men to do these things.

It was always God every time that a person would come to Paul or Peter and try to worship them or call them some kind of a deity, they would stop them and say, no, no, no.

We're just men. We're just men. This is a work of God. You give glory and honor to God. Don't give it to me. And I think that's always been pretty much the view from the

Church of God's platform. And I will say, you said something about it and I'll back you up on that.

All charismatics are not Church of God, but virtually all Church of God are charismatic.

And I say it like this, not all fingers are thumbs, but all thumbs are fingers, is kind of the way you would look at it.

You've got people who refer to themselves as Pentecostal or charismatic that in some cases don't even have the right theology.

There's a group called Oneness Pentecostals and things like that. They don't even believe in the Trinity. And we would have zero in common with those people.

And other things like Benny Hinn, as you mentioned him, I would love to have a few minutes with Benny Hinn and some oil and I'd say, if you've got the gift of healing the way you say you do, we need to go to some children's hospitals and let's see some work done.

Stuff like that doesn't happen because I think that I think that far too many of those types of people are trying to get glory and not giving

God the glory for the things if God were doing something through them in the first place. And I say that's an if. That's an if.

I'm not going to trash anybody. That's an if God was moving through Benny Hinn.

I haven't ever heard him give God credit for it. That's a large if. Right.

And I didn't ask you this previous to the video and I wouldn't ask you this if I didn't think you were okay with it, but you told me a story that about your daughter.

My daughter. Yeah. Yes, sir. So my daughter was was being very difficult growing up when she was younger and she was far behind her twin.

I have two sets of twins and I had had I had taken her to the doctor to see if she was deaf because she wasn't responding at all to verbal commands or as far as that goes any kind of verbal stimulation any audio stimulation seemed to affect her at all and we took her to a what they call an ear nose and throat doctor and they determined to a test they give her that she could hear.

Now they weren't able to to confirm to what level she could hear but they could they could confirm that her ears did in fact work the way they should be working to some degree and they set me up with what was referred to as an autism specialist and the autism specialist was supposed to come to my house and do an evaluation on her to make sure that she didn't fall inside of this autism spectrum because according to the charts and where she was in the doctor's point of view that was the next logical step because she was not on she was not on the track for someone her age

She appeared to be having developmental issues and I would have concurred she had some form of developmental issues now

I will say I am not a I'm, not a uh Autism specialist. I don't know the first thing about autism.

I've said it from behind the pulpit I don't know where he stays what he eats where he went to school. I don't know the first thing about autism but uh

I told my pastor that night was going to a day store in Lincoln and I told him That I wanted to pray for and I wanted him to pray for with me

And we did that very thing and the the next day The next day a child who who hadn't ever really spoken

Started to talk And play with their sisters and that child was a different child the next day.

I mean When I mean 180 degree turn You will never convince me.

You'll never convince me that god didn't move and work on on her behalf Hmm And I say it that way on on purpose

God moved on her and that see god created her God has final say if if god would have said

This is the way it's going to be and you're just going to have to learn to deal with it Then I would have said amen and we could learn how to deal with it

But god stepped in do I think that that always happens? No, I sadly my my mother -in -law who was one of the ones who prayed with her.

We had to bury her she had complications called a Als And uh, she was a believer uh, she was she was actually a baptist who started coming to our church and uh, she believed in the power of god and healing god and And while she went to the grave als didn't win

You know, she still got the victory and uh, so I don't believe that god heals everybody

But to say that god heals nobody. I don't believe that either because i've seen it i've seen it, right?

And i'll i'll hang i'll hang on to to what i've saw and uh And he's good even if he hadn't he would still be good right he's he's not good because of that he's good

And he's good regardless. That's right And I don't I don't ever have any trouble bragging on god anytime.

Anybody wants to ask me to testify About something god's been good to me my whole life my whole life. God's been good to me

Amen And what do we say to that praise the lord praise the lord Praise the lord and so so a cessationist

Believes in miracles and and believes that miracles still happen If if we didn't believe that miracles still happen, then we would say that god wasn't saving people

So I'm i'm right there with you. Um, that's that's a praise the lord story and we thank god for what he he did in your daughter's life

So that's that's fantastic. It's wonderful praise the lord for that. Um, so the next one is

Prophecy the gift the gift of prophecy and so as a baptist cessationist um

What I would say is that that gift Ended at the close of the canon.

Um god revealed himself Uh through his word and then he he closed the book and that's how he reveals himself um, the prophecy that we are most familiar with is the the telling of the future, you know, this is this is going to Uh be a sign of the messiah.

This is going to be a sign of the end times This is what's coming in the future. So normally when we think of prophecy we think of uh, what's coming in in the future and and that type of prophecy

I believe as a baptist cessationist, um ended with the the close of the canon close of scripture.

Um, if if prophecy can Continues, which I I think it does.

I think it continues in this form that instead of um

Foretelling Telling the telling the future or or what's going to happen or you know?

um What what people Need to do in their life or you know sharing some kind of prophecy of you know, something unknown

To someone that they didn't know before instead of foretelling I believe

Prophecy today is what pastors do every sunday morning, which is forth telling

Instead of foretelling it'd be forth telling and so we We foretell we proclaim we say what god has said in his word as we preach it

And so that would be my perspective as a baptist cessationist. So what's your perspective on the the gift of prophecy?

well the way I understand uh prophecy is uh largely the way that you just described it

Most of the time when I whenever I hear Somebody Use the term prophecy.

It's not in a and i'm just taking notes here when you say something So I don't forget a way to put it is not always looking at things as a futuristic standpoint so much as it's uh, what what i've heard referred to by john calvin no less as a

Supernatural illumination of scripture by the work of the holy spirit and that would be where god reveals to us the truth in his word and uh, that's that is a

For all intents and purposes. That is a miracle. That is a that is a work of the holy spirit which

If that's not still if that's not still happening then, you know, then scripture itself wasn't wouldn't have any power to it you know, so uh, one thing that I will say that I that I have uh

I have I have seen and been and been a part of have you ever heard of the term reading someone's mail? I think so Okay, so is that maybe with um

Another word that you would use would be discernment or discerning that's that that's kind of that's kind of I think

I think the way that I would have read it in scripture paul would say that I perceive That that I the way

I see it. This is what this is what's going on and there's been times in dealing with people on on the street and one -on -one encounters where You know, you don't really i've never heard god audibly, you know in this regard, but I have been at times

Maybe acutely aware of their body language Or something and realize that we're we're stepping on it on a really sensitive.

I perceive that this is a sensitive topic and I won't use any names in this encounter because I have absolutely zero idea who watches or listens in the long run and I wouldn't want to to embarrass anyone

So, uh one day I was passing out tracks and I was around the corner at linkedin and there was some uh, some younger gentlemen sitting at some iron

Tables and cheers. It was outside of a used to be a bakery. I think it's called something else now It's where graffitis used to be, you know linkedin area there used to be a bakery there and there were some chairs outside and uh, as I was beginning to To share the law and the gospel with the with this man and give him one of ray comfort's tracks here.

Amen And uh one of these amen

Whenever I was I was talking to him uh, I really felt impressed this man was a

What they call a closet homosexual. Is that the right terminology for that one? Who was homosexual in practice, but not out in the open telling everybody about it?

Because we were dealing with uh With lust, you know how you get that part if you follow the ray comfort train of thought it gets to the part where he asked if I You know, but he started to sort of shake and carry on and I noticed some tattoos that he had on his on his hand

And uh, I said I probably better I probably better watch how I approach this this fella on this regard and uh

Of course, I never had any kind of confirmation about that. But at the same time I did deal with him Somewhat differently

I didn't ask him in front of his friend About you know his uh his relationship with women or anything like that.

I left that alone in that in that condition And I just didn't feel peace about About going at that route with him so instead

I went a different route with him still using the law and still using the gospel in conjunction with one another but Uh, if that's what you're talking about then i've seen that work

But I don't know that I would refer to that as prophecy. Does that make sense? Yeah, i'll follow you uh, so Uh, but I have heard of I have heard of people who who can who are told something, uh, uh

Spot on exactly what they were dealing with at the time at home and no way that man knew it Other than god sharing with that individual exactly what they were going through and them coming up and and just Saying those words to them completely shattered all kinds of uh

Bondage and and change and that's again. That's a work that god does through people But that's not a work that any one man or a gift that any one man

Obtains on his own doing that is something that god does through a man For god's for god's glory and for our benefit right so, uh

Yeah as far as prophecy, but 99 .9 % of all of it that i've ever heard is what is is Is what you're talking about a foretelling?

Is that what or a or what? Telling yeah, I'm gonna write that down Uh, I don't want to I don't want to misspeak that and and put words in your mouth

I want to ask a question. Uh, I'm fully i'm fully aware of the canon of scripture law and I see and all those, uh,

I I have some i've heard you refer twice now to uh, these gifts stopping at the close of the canon

And i'm just sort of curious as to the mindset behind that is Man closed the canon of scripture, right?

Because there were disagreement on on some of the books that went in the bible. There were different couple different councils on that.

Uh, I don't know i'm not i'm not a an authority on on the canon scripture and how it came to be but I do know that there was some

Some disagreement on like for instance book of revelation was not originally added then it was added later. Uh, is that right?

I'll I'll have to look into that one. Um There was one council that didn't want to add it and one council did add it and they wound up They wound up sticking with the latter right because I think it was the council of hippo

That's how I remember it. That's because it was in in africa where that council met that that seconded it there was a there was a

I guess a uh A majority rule on that there was two

Two out of three people agreed to keep the the book of revelation in the scripture canon. So therefore it stayed

Oh, and my very limited understanding of it. Very very limited understanding of it.

Um, um Just as limited as well on my understanding of it. Um, my understanding and I think

I think this may address a little bit of your question. Um, my understanding of the situation is um those councils that compiled

The scriptures, of course the old testament was already compiled and and they knew what it was, you know That's what that's what they read and referenced but compiling the new testament and and putting it with the old testament uh

Those councils weren't in charge really uh

Of that process. Um Um What was going on a lot of times was people were were um falsifying documents, um claiming to have letters from paul or signing paul's name, um, and so There were there were a lot of forgeries.

Um and so there had to be this authentication of which books were

Inspired by god which which books had the authorship of the holy spirit And and that's what they did was they they looked at the books that um, you know, of course didn't contradict each other that Seemed to you know have the holy spirit as their as their author and I and i'm not you know describing that nowhere near well enough but um

They they weren't picking and choosing which books to to put and and when and how to close

It was you've got all these forgeries we need to you know, once for all say

These these are the books from god because they're authoring the holy spirit And the these other these others are forgeries because they contradict the theology

Uh that's in these other books I got you And so it's more of an identification of which books the holy spirit authored

And that and that's my perspective. I don't know if that answered your question Yeah, it does to some degree

I suppose. I just know that. Uh so So that I could be clear

Whenever you say because of the close of scriptures canon or the close of canon of scripture

You're not saying that because man closed The scripture you're saying that that god had already ceased the the gifts as the apostles used before that happened

Is that so am I or am I misunderstanding still can can you repeat that so, uh

Let me let me think how to put this The close of scripture canon was was long after the apostolistic age, right?

I can't even talk long after the age of the apostles had ended was before the scripture canon closed

Am I correct in saying that I don't know the time frame But I got to imagine it was long after paul had already been.

Okay so so Well, you're saying that as a cessationist your your point is

That you believe that the giftings of the holy spirit ceased long before the actual close of this canon

That the closing of the canon isn't what caused them to cease but rather that uh

They had they died off when the last apostle died off is that is that the best way to word that maybe Yes, I and I think

I know exactly what what you're talking about and where i'm being unclear. Um, okay

Okay, so so the the close of the canon is is not when say the councils

Compiled it and put it in a leather binder That that wasn't the close of the canon the close of the canon is when

God um finished inspiring through the holy spirit Authors to to write down books.

I got you. I got you so i'm more clear on on what you're getting at and uh, and and and then

I would agree more with you that uh, that this I was going to ask why the close of the canon had something to do with the ceasing of From the baptist point of view the ceasing of the work now,

I get what you're saying That this is not that from the cessationist point of view

Not that you as you said before you're not in a you're not you don't speak for all cessationists But from a cessationist point of view the way you understand it

Is that the gifts had stopped long before the canon of scripture was solidified And that the solidification of the canon was more to uh discredit any fraudulent books that had been penned since those times

We we am I understanding more correctly now, I would I would say that's

Would be my understanding. Okay, not that that my understanding is completely correct either I'm going to check this one off as an answered question then

If you see me moving, uh I don't have ants in my pants. I got my note.

My desk is too full right now I've got my notebook. I'm taking notes and sitting over here to the side Gotcha All right, so are you you ready to move on?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay So we went to healing prophecy in tongues and this one isn't really

If you were to to look up a list in scripture, um, I called

I called it revelation And and like I said in the baptist church you have cessationist and you also have non -cessationist and uh, but I would say generally overall from my understanding

Baptists have always been known as people of the book and so in in print or in theology

Or doctrine or creed, whatever you want to say Uh, generally

The baptist would say The bible's all we need however

It's become a practice more regularly That even though generally a baptist would say that the bible's all we need

They still continue to or have adopted certain languages such as God showed me a sign or God the spirit led me or the the spirit.

Um, God God spoke to me They're they're using that type of language so they're

What they would have down on paper as their their doctrine or creed Doesn't always match up with the language that you're they're using god showed me a sign

The holy spirit led me god spoke to me. He um Uh, he spoke to my heart

I felt this in my heart you you understand the language that i'm i'm using I understand the language that you're using.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And so uh There's kind of a contradiction there in in the baptist in my opinion in the in the baptist world today

Where this is what we have on paper, but this is the kind of the language that we use and And so from my perspective as a baptist cessationist

I I try to Um tread carefully in in using that type of language because if this is what

I believe on paper that Um god has spoken through his word um, and and that's where if I want to I've heard some pastors say this

If I want to hear um god speak to me audibly I read the bible out loud So so if um

And that's kind of the you know, it's a joke, but it's kind of the perspective. That's what we or or I believe that the the bible is

Is all we need all we have is um, and I think I even heard you quote this verse.

Um, It's all we need for for life and godliness. God is everything we need for life and godliness in his word

And and he when he finished inspiring the last book um, he he finished or ceased um speaking communicating in any way other than through his word um now does

With this caveat does the holy spirit. Um sanctifies and and grow us and and teach us

Does he um Are things appointed in in um so that Things work out according to god's will

Absolutely. Are those things mysterious? Yes um Are we to be seeking that?

I don't think so I I think what I can do in in my theology and my understanding is

I can um You know, let's say that I was in your situation and and I'm john say i'm john jones and my daughter went through this situation

Looking back at the situation I can see

Where where god moved I can see where god led us to this certain, you know

This is this isn't really details of your specific situation, but just a general general type situation

I can see where god closed this door and led me to this doctor Um, but as far as looking for those signs, that's where in my perspective as a baptist cessationist from my perspective

If you begin to look for those things prior to You're moving into what you know, the scripture teaches us to avoid which is mysticism

You know casting lots, uh tarot cards, um, you know, it's of course when you when somebody says tarot cards or or or um palm reading or fortune telling

When you when you hear those words um You automatically say yeah, those things are evil but from from my just my perspective the way

I see it when we try to Figure things out prior to them happening

Looking for signs. That's kind of what you're doing with a palm or a tarot card And so that that's my

Perspective and understanding of that situation So if I want to if I want the holy spirit to teach me if I want to hear from god

Um, i'm i'm staying directly with his word instead of looking for or Listening for an inward or outside source

And so what and and of course, you know I think there's gonna be baptists that that may hold different perspectives and that's okay

That's just going to be from my personal experience and perspective um And and this is where I think we we would differ as as in general in as churches

This is where we would differ probably the most because I think that um, the the church of god members

Probably use similar language as what I was giving an example of earlier. Um, and and I think a popular word is unction the holy spirit gives an unction and so The I think baptists today, even though I think it contradicts what they have on paper

They use that language which is similar to what I think my perspective I think the church of god probably uses that type of language as well

But the church of god um Applies that um

More And and so correct me if i'm wrong share with me your perspective. What do you think?

well, i've never heard of anybody in the church of god using anything like uh, any any tarot cards or right

Or anything like that that there's an absolute zero that those things the way I understand those are of the devil, right?

that's saying uh I want I tried to take some notes But I missed some things as you were saying

I don't write nearly fast enough and now that i've written it I can't hardly I can't hardly read it. Uh Uh this little section

I guess called is god still speaking, uh, the holy spirit The holy spirit as far as I understand has a has a twofold mission in this earth and that is to uh to lead people to christ

And testify of christ. So, uh, he leads sinners to christ by way of conviction

And once once someone is saved he leads us in all truth christ, of course being truth.

So Whenever, uh, you read scripture that illumination of scripture is is a work of the holy spirit and and to me

That's that is a form of communication. Now when you talk about reading the bible and understanding scripture god's still speaking through scripture

A hundred a hundred times out of a hundred as are you listening? Which is is the biggest part there?

So I I would say that god does still speak to people now Do I think that god speaks to people every morning they get up and and and I hear a lot of preachers say

And like like you say some of them baptists some of them, uh, some of them bapticostal some of them pentecostal

They'll say well god told me this and I and I get kind of weary about that because You know in the grand scheme of things

I've done this the other day when he's talking and you're talking about and and and most of recorded history god spoke enough to that we we've

Set aside that that book for things that we understand that he that he did say for certain

Now scripture does say that if all the things that god said and done the books of the world wouldn't contain it

You know I still don't believe that god that god gives

Uh, what'd you call this revelation? Is that what you refer to this as? Okay We're back.

All right, we'll just go with it uh But one of the things that I wanted to make sure that i'm very clear on and that we all understand

Is that scripture has to have the final say? If you feel like you're being led to say something or led in a direction

The bible says try the spirit see if they be of god And if you you're hearing something

That is not of god then then that's a problem that's a big problem and And you need to you need to seek

Gospel help as as quickly as possible if you're listening So you in other words if if if a man says that he's heard from god and what he says contradicts scripture stop right there

Because scripture has to have the final say because god's not psychotic. He's the same yesterday today and forever

So anything that he does say to you will be the same as what you can find wrapped in that letter bound book

You know If if i've been in a situation I don't know that i've ever been in a situation where somebody says they've heard for god and I said well

Wait a minute. That's a contradiction of terms. I I'd stop i'd stop right there matter of fact I would go as far as to say this

If I felt like or if I heard somebody saying God told me this and then he said something that was completely

Anti -scriptural I would stand up and grab my family. We would leave that building. I wouldn't care

I wouldn't care who he was He could if he was the general overseer of the church of god, he got up and said something that In fact,

I did hear something one time now that i'm thinking about it and I told my kids I said, let's go We were at a uh, we were at a thing and the guy didn't say anything anti -scriptural he just took it out of context and uh, when we were leaving

I was asked I guess the look on my face said at all. I said, what'd you think about that? I said i'll never bring my kids back to that because i'm gonna have to spend the rest of the night clarifying that and I Haven't took them back

You know that guy made a mistake that night. He made a mistake that night. Everybody's subject to make a mistake, right?

I just uh Man, if you if you make a mistake regarding scripture

We spoke this earlier to stand behind that that sacred desk and to dive into god's word in front of god's people

You better make sure That what you're saying is going to hold water because if somebody's going to put any confidence in what you said at all and use that As to influence their relationship with god and it's wrong

Be better have a millstone cast around your neck and thrown into the sea. At least that's what you know The bible i've got over here reads to lead somebody wrong yeah, so I always say that I believe god still speaks to people but scripture has final say

Is that fair it's fair enough Now We we have a comment

And I want to I want to share this with you and this may or have can you see the comments yet?

I see one says this is interesting Okay, there's there's another one that's come in and this may be a difference that I overlooked and it may or may not be

I'm, i'm not certain but i'm going to read to you the question and um

And this doesn't have to be in depth Um this we can do just like we've been doing. Um, i'll give my perspective and you give your perspective

Uh, just you know a couple sentences Uh a scripture, you know, we'll just give each other's perspective not a debate

But here's here's the question All right. Jenny says I tuned in late Could you guys address?

once saved always saved Hmm so I'll let you it's your show. I'll let you go ahead

Okay We this could be its own program, uh, probably in and of itself

So as a as a baptist cessationist perspective As as I read the scripture, um, which cessationism

Really doesn't have anything to do with it. But uh From from my perspective my reading of scripture and I would say that Not just in general but overall from the baptist perspective um

If you want to use the term once saved always saved That's what we would hold to.

Um, I don't i'm not sure that's the most biblical way to term it Um, my perspective is that the most biblical way to um understand that issue or doctrine would be using the language perseverance of the saints

That um, we will persevere to the end And I would the verse that Of course we could spend so much time and looking at so many verses but I would just um go to the

You know john chapter three um for god's love of the world

That he gave his one and only son that everyone believing in him should not perish but have

Everlasting life and if it's god who saves And he says it's everlasting then it's once and for all and I think scripture also says um

Once you're in christ's hands Christ is in the father's hands. No one can pluck you out of his hands.

And so From my perspective, that's the stance that that I take. Um, and i'll let you share what you think well, uh

While I do think it's possible that someone can be born again and never and never backslide I do think that it is possible to do that.

I don't think it is as easy as As most people make it out to be for instance uh

I'll put it this way I guess is my point of view. This is not a dissertation on the subject

I don't believe that god would force a man to spend eternity with him that didn't want to and And if you give your life to the lord and for whatever reason

Decide that that god isn't good enough that you want something better. There's nothing better than jesus

So therefore you're you're not gonna you're not going to inherit the kingdom of heaven because he's not going to force you to be with him

I think about demas And I know that paul says that demas left us having forsaken this world, you know

Having loved this world more than this and then paul would later on say that therefore that some have left from us proving that There were not of us from us

And that they were not with us, you know, uh, this is a long and age -old debate I I my thoughts on it may differ slightly than than Another church of god.

I don't know What every church of god fella believes in this, uh, the church of god does

Does allow I think the church of god will house for people to think exactly like you brother robert inside their theology

I think there's room for that in terms of your view of uh, eternal security but personally

When I look at hebrews and Peter and I know that a lot of people say that hebrews

When you get a thing is chapter 6 verse 4 And chapter 10 verse 26 doesn't doesn't obtain it doesn't have anything to do with Losing your salvation.

It reads a lot like that to me and as as far as I wouldn't

I wouldn't feel confident in thinking that That a man couldn't lose his salvation

I wouldn't feel confident in that however however I think that far too many times the biggest hang up on this subject deals with people

Spending less time reading their bible than they should purposely pronouncing someone to be saved who's actually not

If I can be honest about that There's a lot of times people come to an altar and repeat what some well -meaning evangelist says and then he's somehow another

Purposely pronounces them saved and then sends them home. There's been no regeneration whatsoever And these people are far worse off at their end state than they were in their beginning state

So that's a long long -winded way of saying I believe you can lose your salvation But I think that you need to be careful in saying who is saved and who is it to begin with Okay And and maybe that's something that you and I can talk about and and do another episode on may or may not

We can talk about it but it It's it is a good discussion to have um so with that being said and and try to truck ride along because we we're we're um

We're getting into some time here. Um So which is okay, which is okay.

Um From my perspective after we look at the um Um differences

As from our perspective, um I would I would say one of one of the very few things that we probably shouldn't do together

Uh, jenny says thank you for your answers, by the way, so thank you john Um so one of the uh, one of the few things that I think

We probably shouldn't do together and we've already discussed this is probably on a continuous basis

Try to join and and have a structured church services together and and that's simply because In these areas we we apply these things that we discussed just discussed we apply them a little differently so they

They come out a little differently Specifically in our church services and so to avoid being a stumbling block to avoid unnecessary um grumbling a strife

That's probably one of the few things that we we probably shouldn't do Consistently together because of those differences.

What what's your opinion on that? I think I think you're spot on if if something If something that we do differently would cause somebody else inside the congregation to stumble

Then then it's not worth it's not worth walking and together in that aspect if you can walk together

And and be separately much like paul and barnabas didn't agree you know, there was there was some point of disagreement and instead of Instead of them fighting through a disagreement and walking together.

He said, you know what that's fine You just go on with john mark. I'm going to take silas. They they still agreed in terms of the mission

But they disagreed in how to move forward in that mission initially therefore In order to continue to walk in the right direction.

Sometimes you have to walk separately, right? Okay Now now with that being said we're gonna we're gonna move forward into a more positive section of this conversation.

Um, There's a reason why john and I john and I can call ourselves brothers um

And I want john to read a section now this he's going to read declaration.

Uh, what's it called the declaration? This is the church of god declaration of faith Declaration of faith.

So this is coming from the church of god and he's going to read a section Out of a shorter section out of a longer section.

I'll let you so, uh, the church of god declaration of faith has 14 parts and uh

Roberts asked I read the first six because these would be what we would call Essentials. This is not just church of god essentials.

This is christian essentials This is if we disagree with these first six that we're not brothers. We have a different we serve a different father and uh,

And am I speaking right brother when I say that? so, uh If you're ready, i'm going to go ahead and start.

Absolutely. All right. Uh It's entitled we are declaration of faith. We believe number one

In the verbal inspiration of the bible number two And one god eternally existing in three persons namely the father son and the holy ghost number three

That jesus christ is the only begotten son of the father conceived of the holy ghost and born of the virgin mary

That jesus was crucified buried and raised from the dead that he is ascended to heaven And is today at the right hand of the father as our as the intercessor number four

That all have sinned and come short of the glory of god and that repentance is commanded of god for all And necessary for the forgiveness of sin.

I think that's that's huge number five that Justification regeneration and the new birth are wrought by faith

In the blood of jesus christ and number six And sanctification is subsequent to a new birth through faith in the blood of christ through the word and by the holy ghost

That's the first six parts of 14 And and those things may be worded a little differently in our different confessions of faith

But those are the core essentials that you must have

To have a correct understanding of of who god is and that we can call ourselves brothers and sisters in christ.

Um I was going to say something but I forgot what it was. Um Wow, I hate when that happens, um, you'll think about it tonight when you're trying to sleep.

That's right. That's right I wish I would have said it. Um so We can call ourselves brothers in christ

Because we we hold to to those essential core doctrines of scripture um, and because we hold on to those essential doctrines, um

There's things that we can Do together a lot of things that we can do together because we hold on to those doctrines

And and I just wrote down a short little list and there there may be more things but we can we can pray together

Because we pray to the same god. That's right We can evangelize together because we have the same gospel

And we can which is I put down evangelism and outreach but Basically the same thing we have the same gospel.

We have the same mission. We have the same calling Let's just to go out and Matthew 28 18 18 through 20

We have the same calling same mission um service ministries We can do that together, um helping other people, um meeting the needs of other people

Uh, we can we can have bible studies together we can we can do videos videos together

We can have bible studies together we we may have uh disagreements but Scripture says that iron sharpens iron

Amen, so we can uh, we can sharpen one another. Um and We can serve one another even though we can serve other people and we can love other people

We can do that, especially with our brothers and sisters. So therefore We can serve one another and we can love one another

Because they are brothers and sisters in christ and we can we can do that in a way that I think is is different Than a way that we love and serve, you know someone who's not inside the family

Sure. Sure. It looks a little different. It's a little more special Yeah Um, so with with that being said and you're right

I probably will think of what I wanted to say later on tonight and it'll haunt me and I wish

I would have Uh said it but that's okay. Um, we need to wrap it up. Anyway We've got going on to the more positive

Part of the the discussion um the the climax here

Is the gospel itself exalting christ? So what i've asked what i've asked john to do is to present the gospel for us

And so as christians we can be edified by the gospel if you do not know christ as your lord and savior um

We would we we would ask that you um, listen listen to the gospel um, and before we get there, um

I have another comment. Michelle says We can worship together We can win souls together.

We can disciple people together. We can set aside petty differences and come together And and pray together as a powerful force that bombard the gates of hell

We are one body Amen. Amen. Amen. Um, I I would um

This is just my personality. Um, I I I would want to Make one caveat with that statement, even though You know,

I agree and that goes right along with everything that we've been talking about tonight I I think

Differences Are important and and shouldn't be ignored Um, I think it's good to discuss them and and talk about them not not argue not fight

But discuss them and talk about them why I think it's because what I said just a few minutes ago iron sharpens iron

And and john mentioned this a few moments ago everybody is Everybody can make mistakes

Everybody can be wrong Me included me most of all And so I need to be sharpened.

I need to grow. I need to learn and therefore I can I can be taught

From God's word as we look at God's word And you know, that's why

God has given us teachers, um to help us to understand God's word, but when

We are getting together And that iron's rubbing together and and we're sharpening one another

We can have we can have our differences we can talk about our differences and it might reveal to me

That i'm wrong That I need to align myself up differently

Because i've been understanding it wrong And so that I think that's true and can be true for everybody.

Would you agree with that? Sure, sure. I'm wrong a lot. If you don't believe me just ask my wife I'll go get her in your honor and let her come in here and tell you

I'm wrong an alarming amount of the times but uh

I don't think we're wrong on the gospel and I would I would say there's something that come to mind. Maybe you'll think maybe it'll jog your memory uh,

I actually went to a baptist bible college and While the book titles are different.

I still got Somewhere around here. I still got some of the textbooks.

I kept them because they were great. They were great sources of information Whenever I was reading my church of god

Curriculum and my books almost the exact same Almost the exact same different authors which you would expect different authors.

One book was newer than the other and uh I was blown away. I said, how can we have the same curriculum?

and and just Because What holds us together is far more than what divides us

Right, and I think you're right in that if if our worship service would cause somebody to stumble

And your worship service didn't Then they should go to your church

Because I want to see people want to christ More than I want to see people come to my church, right?

Right. I want to we ought to be investing in the kingdom of heaven We ought to be

The bible doesn't say you shouldn't put up treasures and stuff. It just says don't put your treasures in earth, right?

You'd rather storm up in heaven, right, you know Uh a fat bank account in big house ain't gonna save nobody right and and people the only thing we can take with us to heaven

So investing in the gospel and investing in god's people investing in you know spending your time uh

Preaching the gospel to people who don't know who jesus is That's a wise investment. The bible says the one that wins souls is wise so amen

I I've ministered with baptists I've ministered with I believe we're not administered with some methodists before they they asked us to come they thought we were somebody else but once we were there we were true story

They thought they were inviting a baptist church because our ministry names were so similar

Right, and they didn't do their homework and they called the wrong guy they called me and uh when I showed up he said

I don't recognize anybody in your group. I said Well, we're all we're all here.

I was expecting a choir. I said a choir He said yeah, there was a choir. It was supposed we got the state set up for a choir.

I said Well, there'll be plenty of room then because the drummer's coming. I was like drums. Oh, no

I said we're here now But you know what The the message was still great the guy that spoke that night he was a uh,

I believe he was a baptist and and he preached He preached a gospel centered message.

Just absolutely full of grace Full of the power of god and and if anybody got saved they got just as saved under his baptist

Doctrine as they would under a church of god doctrine and I praise god for it, right? right Um, michelle says

We know in part of prophets. I impart jenny says I agree with discussing our differences as long as everyone treats each other with respect

Uh, michelle says I love the body. I love going to all different denominations and many other saints Michelle said amen and michelle said yes, let us be wise.

So thank you guys How are you seeing that? I think there's a way that you can see it on yours.

I'm, i'm just not sure how I'm, not i'm not very wait a minute. Is there a chat button that does it?

Maybe It may take a little poking around Ha I said it

Yeah, I just lost everything else, but that's fine All right So thank you guys for commenting.

Thank you for absolutely. Thank you for participating. We appreciate you guys. We love you guys And uh, if you have any more questions, please feel free to um

To to send them to us and we can do another video and we can we can have another discussion and answer questions

But without any further ado, I would love for john to to share the glorious gospel with us tonight

Absolutely. So i'm going to be taking it out of first corinthians chapter 15. This is my absolute favorite chapter of scripture uh paul

Talked to the galatians about how they had uh deserted the gospel Or something else which wasn't a gospel at all and uh, he he

Backs that even further by saying that if anybody were to preach another gospel that he'd be accursed whether it be an angel from heaven or anybody

So I think it's important that uh that we preach the right gospel and brother robert's already said we have the same gospel and uh anyway chapter 15 first corinthians

Now make known to you brethren the gospel which I preach to you which also was received in which you stand

By which you also were saved if you hold fast to the word Which I have preached to you unless you believed in vain for I delivered you as a as of importance

What I also received That christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he was raised from the third

Raised on the third day according to the scriptures and then he appeared to cephas and then to the 12th And after that he appeared to more than 500 brethren

At one time most of whom remain until now but some have fallen asleep Then he appeared to james and then to all the apostles and last of all to one ultimately

Untimely born he appeared to me also for I am the least of the apostles and not fit to be called an apostle because I Persecuted the church of god, but by the grace of god.

I am what I am and his grace toward me did not prove vain But I have labored even more than all of them yet.

Not not I but the grace of god with me Whether then I whether then it was

I or they so we preached and so you believe Now if christ is preached that he has been raised from the dead

How how some? How do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

But if there is no resurrection of the dead not even christ has been raised and if christ has not been raised and our preaching Is in vain your faith also is in vain moreover whenever Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of god because we've testified against god that he has raised christ from For whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised

For if the dead are not raised not even christ has been raised and if christ has not been raised and your faith is worthless You are still in your sin

Then those also who have fallen asleep in christ have perished if we have hope in christ and this life only we're of all men most pitied

But now christ has been raised from the dead the first fruits of those who are asleep For since by man came death by man also came the resurrection of the dead for as an adam all dies

So also in christ all will be made alive, but each in his own order christ the first fruits after that those who are christ

After his coming then comes the end when the hands over the kingdom of god and the father

Excuse me I misspoke then comes the end when he hands over the kingdom of god and the And the father when all when he was abolished all rule and all authority and power

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet the last enemy that will be abolished is dead

For he hath put all things in subjection under his feet But when he says all things are in subjection

It is evident that he is accepted who put all things in subjection to him when all things are subjected to him

Then the son himself also will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him so that god may be all in all otherwise

What will those do? Who are baptized for the dead if the dead are not raised at all?

Why then are they baptized for them? Why? Why are we also in danger?

This very hour I affirm brethren by boasting in you which I have in christ. Jesus our lord.

I die daily if from Human motives I fought with wild beast at ephesus

Why what does it profit me if the dead are not raised? Let us eat and drink for tomorrow We die do not be deceived bad company corrupts good morals be sober -minded as you all

And stop sinning for some have no knowledge of god. I speak this to your shame Some will say how are the dead raised and what and with what kind of body do they come you fool

That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies and that which you sow would not

You do not sow the body which is to be but you bear a grain perhaps the wheat or something else

But if god gives a body just as he wished Into each of the seeds of a body of his own all flesh is not the same

But there's but there is one flesh of man another flesh of beast another flesh of bird Another fish there are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies

But the glory of the heavenly one and the glory of the earthly one There is another glory in There's another glory of the sun and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars and stars different in glory

So also is the resurrection of the dead It's sewn a perishable body to raise an imperishable body it's sewn in dishonor and raised in glory it's sewn in weakness

It's raised in power It's sewn in the natural body is raised in the spiritual body If there is a natural body there is also a spiritual body

So also is it written the first man adam became a living soul the last adam became a life -giving spirit

However, the spirit is not first but the natural then the spirit The first man is from the earth and earthly the second man is from heaven

As is the earthly so is also those who are earthly and as for the heavenly so are those who are heavenly just as We have borne the image of the earthly we will also bear the image of the heavenly and the best part

And I say this brethren that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable behold

I tell you a mystery We're not all sleep will all be changed in a moment the twinkle will not last trump

The trump will sound the day will be raised in perishable and we will be changed for this for this perishable

Must put on the imperishable and this mortal must put on the immortality But when the when the perishable have put on the imperishable and the immortal has put on the immortality

Then will come the saying that is written death is swallowed up in victory. Oh death. Where's your victory? Oh death

Where's your sting for the sting for the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is in the law But thanks be to god who gives us the victory through our lord.

Jesus christ Therefore my beloved brethren be steadfast and movable always abounding in the work of the lord knowing that your toll is not in vain

I love it. That's my it's a lot of reading and I apologize that I don't read good out loud. But uh The the thing is

Mankind Is is fallen from the very first sin and we're in need of redemption

Nobody redeems but christ. There's absolutely no way Of everlasting life apart from jesus christ.

That's right And I ask if you don't know the lord If you've never if you've never heard that if that's the first time you've ever heard the gospel

Rest you assured that there is a resurrection and rest assured that that if uh

You don't repent and turn from your sins then whenever the whenever those who are raised up in the glory you'll be

Raised up to burn eternity in hell That's tough, but that's the way it is. Yeah There's no but christ if there'd been any other way

Then christ that christ death would have been for nothing. Amen Amen, he's a good god.

He's a good god. It's good news. Amen And If you've if you've never responded to jesus christ, we john and I would plead with you to repent of your sins

And put your faith and trust in jesus christ. Amen plead with you to do that best decision that you ever make

Uh, michelle says he is the way truth and the life. Amen to that And john,

I remembered what I was going to say And the scripture the scriptures that you read fit right into it

The thing the thing you and I discussed that we we would both add to that declaration

Jesus promised That he's coming back that's right it's in there and we it's just it's further down the list in that declaration

That's right. He's coming back. He promised it's going to happen and that's right resurrection.

Amen. So If if we can pray for you, let us know if we see it late

We will pray for you later. If you watch the video later and you would like for us to pray for you

Just type me Um, one of us will see it and we'll pray for you if you have questions send them to us

We'd love to try to answer your questions, but let's let's pray together father we thank you so much for the time that you've given us together to um, to look at your word to discuss your word and to to have fellowship one with another and father we pray that You were glorified that jesus was exalted and father we

We pray that there were if there was anything Um any way that we communicated that was any inappropriate or wrong we father we are sorry and we

We trust that you would use Use this time despite who we are so that So that people may come to know you

So that people may be saved through your son jesus christ and the work of the holy spirit

And so father we just We're just so thankful for the time that you've given us tonight

And we we pray for all those who are watching that uh, thank you for Them and them giving of their time to spend with us

And we're just um, we're overwhelmed by your goodness. And so I can't

All right. All I want to do right now is just say thank you And so I pray all these things and in jesus name, amen, amen.

All right, john, thank you so much And I see some comments

I was trying to read them, okay, sorry about that. No, you're good Yeah, thankful for you john and hopefully this again sometime.

It was amazing. Remember that jesus is king Go live in that victory and let's continue to go out there together and proclaim that glorious gospel.