Religious Studies Student Blinded by Relativism

Apologia Utah

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Can I ask you guys why you're doing this? Yes, absolutely. We'd love to tell you.

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We're born -again believers. We're from a Christian church. We go to tons of different events, regardless of whatever religious institute is holding an event.

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We're here because Jesus tells us to go out and proclaim the Gospel. So we find this a good opportunity.

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We don't hinder anyone from going in. They're free to take it or not. We just want to share the truth.

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So within each tract, there's scripture. There's also information that would show you information about our church, things like that.

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What church is it? We're Apologia Church. Are you guys all together?

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Yeah. Okay, gotcha. Do you have any religious background yourself? I do, yeah. I grew up LDS, but I don't really go to church anymore.

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I'm kind of just Christian, I'd say. Okay. What did you take issue with, if you don't mind?

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I mean, a lot of things. You know, the history, the racism, the polygamy, a lot of stuff.

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But I mean, I care a lot about religious belief. I think that people should be free to practice their own religion, no matter what.

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I'm a religious studies major, so religion is really important to me. My family is still very active in the LDS church, and I have tons of friends who are.

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So it's really important to me that they know that they're free to practice. I don't judge them. They can do whatever they want. Yeah, yeah.

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I've just chosen to leave for myself, because it doesn't affect me anymore. But, yeah.

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What do you think about, like... I appreciate what you said there, and I appreciate the fact that this nation allows us to worship the way we want.

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However, I wonder if you would agree, Jesus pretty much makes it clear that there is an objective standard.

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There is a transcendent truth above all other sort of truths, right?

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So, if anything, Jesus shows that there's this exclusivistic nature to Christianity.

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He says in John, he says, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

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No one comes to the Father, also heaven, no one comes to the Father but through me, right?

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So there is only this one way, not these multiple ways. And so, if anything, the most loving thing we could do, then, is share the truth.

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Does that make sense? It makes sense. I mean, I don't agree with it. But, I mean, I understand where you're coming from.

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So you don't agree, then, with Jesus? Like, some of the words he would say? No, I just don't agree with the action of coming out to an event of another religious belief to kind of share your own.

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You know, I heard some people talking about idol worship. And it just feels like, I don't know, what's the point?

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What do you feel like you're gaining from coming in protest in a way? Sure, sure. We are obeying our

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Lord, number one, because he tells us to do this regardless. So you even see Paul and the apostles in the book of Acts.

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They went to idol temples, they went to synagogues, they went out in front of them. He said, you see this, the

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Athenians, the temple of the unknown God? I tell you that there is a one true and living

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God. You've been worshiping a pantheon of gods. I declare to you the one true God. And he started giving the gospel,

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Jesus Christ. So I definitely understand that this is clashing with what's happening here.

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But we are so concerned about people's eternal destinies.

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I would leave my family, my wife, my daughter, the comfort of my heated home.

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And I would go out here because I believe it's real. And I know it's real. And so if it's real, isn't that the most consistent thing?

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So LDS who say, we're the only way, we're the true church, it's through the living prophets, through our scriptures.

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And if they don't actually share it, then that's damning other people.

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You know what I mean? I mean, yeah, I was a missionary. I've done this before. Where'd you go? I went to Detroit.

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Okay. Who was that like? I mean, I didn't go to the inner city. I was a woman. They didn't send me there. Yeah, that makes sense.

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So I mostly was in college towns. And I spent some time in Ohio a little bit over there.

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I mean, I get it. I've been there. You know, Jesus came, right, in the first century.

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And Christianity began with him and the apostles. He said that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church and against his gospel.

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That means that not one time in history until he returns again will the church fail. Joseph Smith came.

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He said that there was a full apostasy, that there needs to be this restoration of the truth.

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And so what I would argue is that there's been this line since Jesus that has continued forth ever since he came.

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But then Joseph takes us off on this tributary and says, so you've been believing it wrong, and Jesus and the

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Father came to me in the forest, and he told me this, right? So I feel like you experience, in my opinion,

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I don't want to speak for your own experience, but if I were to analyze what you've gone through as an LDS person previously,

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I think that you've been spiritually abused. You've been lied to. You've been sold something that was not true.

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And this whole culture is made up here in Utah of that organization, this multi -billion dollar organization.

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And what I want to tell you is that there really is Jesus. He really is the

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Messiah. He's God in the flesh. He's come down. He's lived that perfect life. He died on that cross.

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He rose again after being buried three days. And then he's coming back to judge the living and the dead.

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And you can have peace with God through Jesus Christ and that it's never failed. So you were on some tributary, and it hurt you.

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And I'm just calling you to come back and believe what Christians have believed from the moment

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Christ has come here. See, I don't know if I'd say it hurt me, you know? Okay. Like, I was happy when I was LDS.

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I really was. My mission was a fantastic experience, and I loved it. But it honestly came to the point when

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I was, I'd say probably like 21, after I came home from my mission where it was hurtful for me because I was trying to force myself to believe in things

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I didn't believe in. So that's maybe what I'm trying to allude to, is some of that hurt. Did you feel like you were trying to be good enough?

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Go to mission, prove to people you could... I don't know. See, my thing is that, interestingly enough,

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I actually really resonate with restoration theology because I do believe that there was a lot of corruption that happened in early

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Christianity. I mean, when you look at the way that, for example, people like Martin Luther, where Martin Luther took words like grace and atonement and salvation and he kind of made them like caricatures of what they really were.

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And I feel like the ideas of atonement and Jesus Christ and grace, I feel like all of those were sort of misconstrued.

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Okay. So I personally resonate with that idea. I just don't really resonate with Joseph Smith. Yeah, so what do you believe then about grace, the atonement, and Jesus Christ?

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Well, you know, if you look at Mormon theology, they say, it is by grace that you're saved after all you can do, right?

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It's kind of that idea. It's like a Nephi 25. Right. It's like that idea of after all you can do is kind of difficult for a lot of people because they think, oh,

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I have to be perfect, right? Like I have to do all of this, and then Jesus Christ will come in and save me.

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But the reality of it is that Jesus Christ, his grace covers everything, right?

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So you don't need to fill a quota or check any boxes to receive that grace.

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Sure, I would agree with you. And so, I don't know, I just feel like church, like I said,

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I'm a religious studies major, so I'm pretty knowledgeable about this stuff. Yeah, yeah. I feel like general

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Christian church history gets really murky and it gets really messy. So how did, we would actually argue that we praise

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God for a man like Martin Luther who brought to light the fact that the Roman Catholic Church Oh, I do agree with that.

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I'm with him on that, yeah. was making this workspace plus faith. And he was one of the ones who pioneered the five solas, sola fide being one of them, by faith alone, right?

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So we are saved by faith alone, by grace alone, by Christ alone.

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And so those are the foundations of the Reformation, you know. So, I don't know, what would you say that he got wrong about faith or grace?

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I just think that, personally, from what I've learned about Martin Luther, I think that he struggled with scrupulosity, which is religious

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OCD. From what I look at just the history and things that he wrote about himself, you know, feeling like he was always going to be damned, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff.

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Yeah, sure. I don't know, I just, I personally, I just, as a person with my beliefs,

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I don't really resonate with the whole hellfire sermon, like, you know, you have to do this, you're going to be saved.

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I believe in a Jesus Christ and I believe in a God that really loves everyone, obviously, and gives everyone, and I think this is very much influenced by my

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Mormon upbringing, but everyone has any kind of opportunity they want to come to Him and to accept

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Him. And I believe that this is a way for people to come closer to the divine. Because these people even teach that Krishna is, like, just a variation of God.

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He's an avatar of Vishnu. Yeah. But they also teach that, like, Krishna, Vishnu's the creator

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God, right? And the way that they teach it, and not all Hindu people, Hinduism is a vast...

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Yeah, they got hundreds of thousands of different sects. This is, like, a tiny, tiny, like, very new sect, too, that's, like, you know...

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But it's interesting to me that the way that they teach it is, like, you know, this is the creator God who, you know, was also sometimes called

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Allah or God or, you know... And I just, I don't know, I think it's interesting. Mormons do that now, too. The table of fragments that broke and everyone got a piece and everyone has truth, right?

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Yeah, I think... So what do you believe about Jesus, then? Tell me, who is Jesus to you?

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Because you said something interesting. Jesus is about love. I agree with that. It says in 1

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Corinthians 13, though, that love rejoices with the truth. Right. So if something is untrue, it's not necessarily love.

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So who is Jesus? Well, who's to say that, like, something like this isn't true? I would say Jesus would say it's not true.

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I don't think he would, though. He would, yeah. I think that what they're teaching are ideas of peace and reconciliation with their fellow man.

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Sounds great. It is great. Sounds great. How is it not great? It's a workspace salvation, though.

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I know one of the guys who helped build this temple, who actually has come to Christ, and they have to sit for five or six hours in the morning with their beaded necklace and rub on their bead and say a prayer.

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Their salvation is not held secure by their faith. Their salvation is held secure by their works. This is supposed to be a syncretistic thing to basically desensitize people because what's actually, you know, as a religious studies major, the chanting, the dancing, everything that's involved, this is a ritual rite.

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This is a religious rite and ritual. So they're participating in something that God says, you shall not worship me like the heathens worship.

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I'm the only God. He says, you shall worship me and you shall have no other gods before me.

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Well, what's wrong with, like, because I'm sure probably most of the people over here are Christian. You know? Are you equating

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Christianity with Mormonism? You mean Mormon? Mormon, yeah. I wouldn't even say that everyone here is

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Mormon. Can I tell you? Yeah, I would agree with you on that for sure. I would warn of this because 2 Corinthians 11 tells me if there's people who will come and it says that they'll preach a different Jesus, a different spirit, right?

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That's the thing is that, listen, I'm not a member of the church anymore, so I'm not definitive in that way. No, no, no, I get you. They are

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Christian. They believe in a Jesus Christ. A Jesus, but which one? Yeah, you keep saying A. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

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Is there a way that God has presented Himself? Not the first one, actually.

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I'm sorry to cut you off. But the first one, they do not believe in the Jesus that has, the one whom

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Scripture has presented. So Jesus, multiple, multiple times, directly and indirectly, says that He is the

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I Am. Exodus 3, Burning Bush, Yahweh in the Hebrew. He says, if you don't believe that I Am, you will die in your sins.

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So that is to say, Jesus is God. So they don't believe that He is the one

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God. Oh, because of the trinity. Yeah. Because they don't believe in the trinity. They believe that He is a God, not the

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God. It's a statement. Does that make sense? Yeah. I don't really get that, but okay.

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Well, we believe it just from what the Bible says, right? Like in John 1, it says, In the beginning was the Word, and the

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Word was with God, and the Word was God. Can you tell me where?

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Can you show us? I mean, I can't pull up specific examples. I could when I was a missionary. I can't right now. I'm sure you could just look it up.

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There's a lot of varying, and there's so many different ways.

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Look at how many Christian sects there are. There's denominations versus sinful sects of Christianity, right?

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Okay, denominations, right. There's so many different denominations. And I guess my point is, is like, about who's right about God.

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Well, think about what you're doing, though. You're doing that same thing. Because what you're telling us is that we're wrong, and you're right. I'm not trying to tell you that we shouldn't be here.

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Well, you're saying your view of Jesus is right. I'm not. That's not what I'm trying to say. Well, that's your worldview, though, because you believe in a different Jesus.

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Like, we would say that you're saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ, who is the eternal

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God, and worship of Krishna, who's an avatar of Vishnu, does not save you.

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We say that. Right. You say otherwise. Well, that's not necessarily what I'm trying to say. When was that, by the way, real quick?

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It's okay to tell someone they're wrong. Like, that's what our country is built upon. Yeah, don't worry about that.

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That doesn't bother me. I'm just calling you to consistency. Sure. Oh, yeah.

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Oh, absolutely. So my worldview is inner faith. I believe very much in acceptance of other religions and religious pluralism.

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I believe that's really the only way to heal communities and nations. So then you know, and maybe you do, that it's completely antithetical to the

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Bible. The Bible has detailed, in fact, God is very specific on how he is to be worshipped, and so you're okay with that?

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Well, I guess that God tells us the two great commandments are to love your neighbor and to love

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God, right? How do you know that's not a contradiction? What do you mean? So here's what

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I find to be very interesting. What would you say, according to your worldview then, to the person who says, the way

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I worship my God is to hurt others? How can you tell them that they're wrong? I would tell them that's wrong. How?

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Why? Because there's no benefit that comes from hurting other people.

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How do you know that? Because it's morally wrong to hurt others.

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Do you feel that way, or is that absolutely true? Where do you determine those morals? That's a great question.

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I'm in an ethics and values class right now, and I'm learning about that. I agree with you with the first and second, the two greatest commandments, love

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God, love neighbor, but you're appealing to an objective standard of truth now. You're appealing to the God of the Bible, who

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I would say is the legislator of all morality. It's outside of my feelings. I've heard you say a lot, this is how you feel, this is how you feel, but the

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Bible tells us in Jeremiah 17 .9, it says, our hearts are deceitful above all things, desperately sick. Who could know it?

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We can feel our way into hell, that's the thing, but we can't feel our way into a relationship with Christ. I disagree.

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I think we totally can. It says in the Bible that no one can come to me, in John chapter 6, unless the

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Father who sent me draws him, and I will not lose one that the Father has given me. Does it draw us by our feelings? No.

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There's nowhere in the Bible that says our feelings determine what is true. It says, sanctify them by the truth,

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John 17 .17, thy word is truth. But how do you know that it's true?

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By God's word. His objective standard revelation outside of my sense experience, that tells me how to think.

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So it says this in the Bible, like you said, about this is really almost oppressive to people who aren't

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Christians, coming out here and talking to them. Well, the Bible tells me in 1 Corinthians that the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

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They don't like it. It's offensive. They'll never like it. But that's not my goal. My goal is just to preach the gospel, and God will save whom he's going to save.

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It's not up to me. Right? Like you coming over here and having a conversation with us, I think that's God -ordained.

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Really? Oh, absolutely. God ordains all things. All things. Isaiah, I think it's Isaiah 48, says that God has determined all things.

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He's sovereign. He's decreed the end and the beginning. The end from the beginning. All things are ordained by God.

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It's in the Bible. But what I want you to know is that you can actually have certainty instead of standing on sinking sand in your feelings.

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I actually, consistently with my own worldview, can look at the murderer and tell him, you cannot harm your neighbor.

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Not because of the way I feel what is right, but because of what God's word says. And think about this. Because of the word.

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And think about this. In Romans 1, 18 through 30, Paul, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gives us an indictment on all humanity.

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He says what we do as humans is that we know that God exists, but we suppress the truth of God for a lie, and we end up worshiping the creature instead of the creator.

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So you, me, everyone around here, our hearts are idol factories. What I think you have done, what's your name?

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Lizzie. I think you've created a God of your own design that makes you feel comfortable with the way you're living.

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It's a syncretistic, it's some of the LDS background. You're worshiping a creature, not the creator.

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Because the creator tells you this, Lizzie, repent from what you are doing and follow the God of the Bible. See.

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I know you don't like it. I can't change that in you. Well, I know. I'm just not stupid.

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Well, I don't think you're stupid. I think for myself. Okay. I pray, and I'm very in tune with this.

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Do your experiences determine truth? That's not what the

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Bible says about the Bible. What does the Bible say? It says that holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

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It says that the words of God, the oracles of men. And here's the thing. All scripture is breathed out by God. That's what he says in 2

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Peter. But even still, like, God works, if God is working through other men to write us scriptures, even still, you have to, you have to, there is a barrier there.

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Oh, absolutely. And so, for me, personally, I've just, and again, this, of course, take, like, the scripture is, like, this is the top, this is, like, the ultimate, always been taught.

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In your feelings. That's what I'm talking about. You know what? I love that. Are you imperfect? Of course.

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So how are you any different than according to your standard, the words of men who wrote the Bible? I'm not.

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That's the thing, is I'm not saying I'm any different, right? But why not trust them and trust yourself?

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Because they lived thousands and thousands of years ago, and they didn't believe that women had rights. No, I think it's because of the

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Bible that women have the rights they have today. Yeah, the Bible actually shows that women are to have rights. That's historically a fact. Really?

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Yes. Paul speaking up in church, saying that women shouldn't talk in church. No, that they can't be pastors. That's it. Right. Why not?

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The freedom of women has come from the word of God. Women rights that they didn't have previously in other cultures.

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Right. That's the truth. That's literally a historical fact. Here's the issue. There is this objective standard we're setting, this truth, this measuring rod, right?

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If I were to make a meter stick by sight, you wouldn't want to build the spaceship,

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NASA's spaceship that would go to the moon with that measuring rod. The Bible is not made by man.

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It is God's very own words. It says it's God breathed. It's theanoustos in the

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Greek, which means breath. It's God's breathing. And yes, he carried men along by way of the

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Holy Spirit, but he gave the exact words of his that he wanted men to have. And so there is this objective transcendent standard above all things, the word of God, okay?

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Who's to say one day your feelings, what you've trusted in your whole life, will not lead you astray?

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Because like he said, Well, they've led me astray once. Yeah, mine too. Yeah, and so there's the religious zealot in Islamic countries who wants to kill people, and he feels that this is true.

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It's so real to him. He's got a burning in the bosom. He'll die while doing it. But then what

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I'm trying to say is, so we're all down here. Then there's this objective transcendent standard that says,

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No, that is wicked. That is wrong. And so we're just calling you to consistency and stop grabbing things from that standard up here and going,

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I like, I'll do a buffet. I like this about Jesus. I like this about the Bible. I'm not trying to.

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No, it's okay. I mean, I'm not trying to disrespect you, but I want you to just go.

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Okay, I'm going to follow exactly what it says. I'm not going to just take some of it.

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I'm not going to syncretize it. Well, what about stuff in the Bible that doesn't apply to modern people?

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What about that kind of stuff? Yeah, absolutely. Like, for example? Like, I don't know. You think about.

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I would like to know what you're thinking, though. I can't think of any specific examples. I'm not as scripturally.

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I'm not as scriptory in the way I used to be. I used to be able to just whip them out like you guys. Sure. Yeah.

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Here might be something. So we believe that God's law from the Old Testament applies today in general equity principle.

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That Jesus actually affirmed the law. He said, I did not come to abolish the law or the prophets.

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And so he fulfilled ceremonially everything from the temple.

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That's why we don't need a temple anymore. He was the final sacrifice. We don't need to do sacrifices anymore.

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He was the final high eternal high priest. We don't need this ordained priesthood anymore.

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All these things that Jesus fulfilled. So those, of course, are superseded by him.

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However, there's things like it says, love your neighbor, build a parapet around the roof of your house.

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So you might go, what? So we're all supposed to build parapets around the roofs of our house today.

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How does that even apply? Well, it's actually a case law general equity principle in that we do things today.

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Like if we have a pool, it's loving your neighbor. It's that. They're doing construction. So they put actually things already so you don't get hurt.

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To keep people from falling into ditches and dying. So we would argue that that sort of thing is a principle from Scripture that to this day people have continued to utilize.

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So it's safety. It's concern for others. Stuff like that. But yeah, we just want you to know the one true and living

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God. You know, it sounds like you have this. Like I said,

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I don't mean to disrespect you, but an idea of who Jesus is. But Jesus has demonstrated who he is.

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And he calls us to believe in him as he is. Not how we want or wish.

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And so that's the call of the gospel. Do you have one of our things? That number or that email will go directly to our church.

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We're a church in South Jordan. If you ever wanted to just meet a little more and talk about it, we'd love to tell you.

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But Jesus Christ is alive. It's not just a story. He's alive today. He's coming again to judge the living and the dead.

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And so we proclaim that truth of the gospel before he comes while there's still time.

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And that's our only hope in this life is through him and him alone.

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You know, I heard them chanting, get rid of your BS. Get rid of all your BS. They kept saying that word

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BS. They said, let it go. Let it go. And people are going to feel a little bit good here today.

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They're going to have a spiritual high, possibly. And they're going to walk out. They're going to be colored in dust.

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They're going to get in the car. And Monday's going to come around. And they're going to feel like crap.

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Because this doesn't actually do anything to forgive sins. This doesn't do anything to wipe away a guilty conscience.

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It only puts color on top of the guilty conscience. Only Jesus can wipe away sin. So that's the truth that we proclaim.

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And we really appreciate your time. How are you guys doing this? Is this like a calling? Were you assigned to this?

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Did you volunteer to come and do this? Oh, right. So, yeah, we were going to a church in Arizona called

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Apologia Church. And the pastors there realized we at first had a burden for the

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LDS people. We did a lot of Mormon ministry out there. And then they're like, hey, we want to plant a church in Utah.

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So they noticed that Wade had a calling, essentially an outward one, wanting to be a pastor. And then they saw that and verified that with him.

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Is that your Wade? Yeah, he's Pastor Wade. And I'm a deacon for the church. And so I came with him, and we planted a church out here.

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So the calling is not necessarily where a bishop says, you're going here. I got a voice from God. No, it's a little bit more organic than that.

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But I heard you're doing. It's Matthew 28, like we said. At the end of the day, if we really believe there is a truth and God has given it to us.

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And like I said, we're obligated. What's that? How do you get that calling to be a pastor?

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So the way it works, according to the Bible, is God raises up men in local church bodies.

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So basically I was a part of a local church under qualified pastors. And essentially,

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I started serving in the church, really enjoying it, and started to experience what

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I sensed was a call by the Holy Spirit that this is something that I can't imagine not doing this.

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But because my feelings and perceptions could be wrong, I then went to my pastors and went through a process where they had to verify.

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Qualifications laid out in the Bible. First Timothy chapter 3 lists out character requirements, able to teach, not pugnacious, not addicted to much wine, all those things.

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And so I had to reach those qualifications. And then that's how this is multiplied.

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Just men being raised up within and sent out to different places.

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I know I got something you might be interested in because you said you're doing ethics and stuff like that. I mean, I'm in a class.

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Yeah, well, a couple of our pastors from Arizona are actually debating two ethics professors at University of Utah, like a formal debate, and it's next

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Saturday at 7 p .m. Interesting. At the University of Utah. See my thing with debates? Like formal debate.

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It's not like a blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, who wins, right? I don't know. Well, that's the amazing thing.

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You should go check it out. It's a demonstration of information on both sides. And then we get to observe as the audience and see how consistent they are with their worldview.

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So that's, yeah, there's not really like, so we lift up the arm and declare the winner. Yeah, I know. It'd be interesting though.

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I guess I just personally like from coming from, and like I had a lot of conversations like this in my mission.

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Obviously, as missionaries, they were wrong, right? Yeah. I just like, the reason why I care so much about interfaith effort, you know, this is what

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I believe. Understand another person.

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Like, for example, conversation, because I didn't even know your name until now. Right? What's your name?

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Andrew. Andrew. That's my brother's name. Oh, cool. So I just feel like the communities, when we get to know each other, it doesn't mean debating.

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I don't know. I just like... Yeah, we hope to do both, right? We try to accomplish that. We have even

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LDS people who we meet with during the week who are questioning things. So kind of at these events, you know, you see it can be very impersonal, or now you're spending time with us talking.

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You know, at the end of the day, when we talk with people of various religious backgrounds, what

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I tend to come out of that with those people is I love them because they're made, according to the

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Bible, in the image and likeness of God. Right. They are my fellow human, you know, fellow human being, fellow man, and I can see the image of God coming out of them.

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So they smile and they tell me, this is why I believe what I believe. I say, okay,

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I love the fact that you love this good thing and that good thing and that good thing, but I want you to know good things like that only come from the one true living

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God. I'm sorry that someone has raised you up and told you and you've been led to believe that in your system with your deity that that's where good things came from.

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Actually, they've been hijacked. There is a good God who made them and says in the letter of James that every good and perfect gift comes from above.

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There's no shifting shadow. He's never changed. God has never changed. He doesn't take new avatars or becomes different apparitions.

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He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And so, you know,

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I do appreciate those conversations and I tend to walk away from them loving the person more.

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But it's not because I adore their culture or I adore their religious beliefs. It's because I see someone who needs the truth, who has the image of God in them and needs the truth.

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And it's calling from them in a way.

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It's so cold I can barely move my mouth. Ecclesiastes says that, what is it?

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Eternal life. Ecclesiastes said that men are looking for eternal life.

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Oh yeah, God has put eternity on our hearts. God has put eternity in the hearts of men.

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And so I can see that in them. They want that. Okay, you're going to find one day that you're not going to get it through this.

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And that's why Jesus came. If we could get that eternal life through all these other ways, then

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Jesus never had to come. He says, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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You must be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven. He says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. There's no way to the

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Father but through Him. There's no way to heaven but through Jesus Christ. Jesus, he says later on, he says,

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I am not only a good shepherd. He says, I am the gate. I am the gate. I am the doorkeeper.

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He is literally the way to heaven. And so that's, if we love

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Him, we'll tell Him. And he even sent the disciples out two by two to go proclaim the good news, which was going to those other faith communities and telling them, repent for the

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Messiah has come. And they hated it so much, they wanted to kill them sometimes. Hey, I get it.

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I was with Sherry for 18 months. I know how it feels. But thanks for talking to me, guys. Yeah, thank you,