Responding to Jehovah's Witnesses

2 Timothy 2 .15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 508 -0960, that's 508 -0960.

And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And welcome to the Dividing Line on this

Saturday afternoon. My name is James White and today we'll be talking about those folks who maybe just this very day came by your front door, knocked on your door, they had book bags, they were nicely dressed, and nine times out of ten they began talking to you about the difficulties of our world, the possibility of war, the possibility of crime, and asked you, what do you think about what the future holds?

They are Jehovah's Witnesses. And today we'll be talking about some situations regarding the

Jehovah's Witnesses, maybe some developments in how the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is handling its own defense these days.

That is, how it's providing an apologetic, a response to those who agree with its teachings.

There's some developments going on there, and we'll also take some time to get you up to speed, shall we say, on some basic Jehovah's Witness beliefs and hopefully help you to be better at sharing your faith with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I don't know how long it took them to have this picture taken, but I am looking at page 12 of the

March 15, 1986 Watchtower magazine. Now why would

I be looking at a Watchtower magazine that's 13 years old? Well, because this is one of my favorite pictures of all time in the

Watchtower. I am one of the very few people that you know that would have a favorite picture in the Watchtower magazine.

But it's on page 12, March 15, 1986 Watchtower. Unfortunately they didn't put the pictures into the

Watchtower library CD -ROM, so you can't look it up there. But if you happen to have an old collection of Watchtowers, like I do, this is the bound volume of the

Watchtower from 1986, it is a black and white picture of a woman with a horrifically nasty look on her face.

It's a freeze frame. And basically, if you can imagine this in your thinking, there is a woman standing to the left of the picture.

Her left arm is outstretched, and her arm is over a very obvious trash can.

In fact, the trash can is in front of an open door. And they have frozen in mid -air a couple of envelopes falling into the trash can.

Now, I've never met anyone who puts a trash can in front of an open door. But that's how they did it in this particular picture.

Now, in the background, through the open door, you see a postman walking away from the door.

And here this woman, with a very, like I said, nasty look on her face, throwing this material into the trash can.

The caption of the picture is, Do you wisely destroy apostate material?

Do you wisely destroy apostate material? This is a picture in an article from the

March 15, 1986 Watchtower called, Do Not Be Quickly Shaken from Your Reason. Do not be quickly shaken from your reason.

Now, if you're not familiar with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, let me just explain to you in passing that the two main publications of the

Society are the Watchtower magazine and the Awake magazine. And you said, is there anyone who doesn't know that?

If you've ever gone to a laundromat, if you've ever gone to a hospital waiting room, all sorts of public places, or just lived in America and had somebody come to your door, you well know that the

Jehovah's Witnesses distribute the Watchtower and Awake magazines. But what you may not be aware of is the fact that the

Awake magazine is primarily designed for those outside the Watchtower Society.

It's primarily designed to sort of be a catcher piece, a piece that catches the eyes of someone and is meant to introduce in a non -threatening fashion the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The Watchtower, on the other hand, is much more directed to Jehovah's Witnesses as a people, as a religious group.

It is the source of their studies that they have at the Kingdom Halls and so on and so forth. So they have two different purposes in these two different magazines.

This particular article comes out of the Watchtower. It is meant to be read by individuals who are

Jehovah's Witnesses. And some of the questions that are asked in this particular article are fascinating.

On page 14, under the Do You Recall section, these are review questions for Witnesses to utilize, specifically it says, ìWhy is reading apostate publications similar to reading pornographic literature ?î

Another one of the questions is, ìWhy are apostate teachings like gangrene ?î

Do you get the feeling that there is sort of a theme going on in this particular Watchtower?

Well, there is. The idea is, do not listen to what former

Jehovah's Witnesses have to say when they criticize the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. And they quote many passages from 2

Timothy and Titus and places like that, that you're not to associate with apostates. And so, even when a person such as myself, who has never been a member of the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, attempts to give literature, a copy of a book, a copy of a tract to one of Jehovah's Witnesses, 99 % of the time,

Jehovah's Witnesses will not take that literature from you. Now there are a few exceptions. Once in a while, in all the times that I've spoken with Jehovah's Witnesses, I've found someone who is actually willing to take something and take a look at it.

But if your experience is like mine, you've discovered that in the vast majority of cases,

Jehovah's Witnesses will not take literature from someone else, especially when that literature specifically addresses the

Watchtower Society or addresses issues where the Watchtower Society teaches something differently than Orthodox Christianity.

Now, what made this particular article stick in my mind over these past almost a decade and a half, this past 13 years, was this is

March 15th of 1986. Now, I also happened to dig out of the archives today, out of a dusty stack of Awake magazines, the

November 22nd, 1984 Awake magazine. Now, it was right at the beginning of 1986, as I recall, that the

Watchtower and Awake magazines went to color. Up till then, they had just been a single color with black, a two -color press, and then they went to a four -color process with the 1986 year.

So on the front of the November 22nd, 1984 Awake magazine, I'm holding it up for the guys in the studio, so if they'd like to see it, so they can see exactly what it looks like and they don't really care.

The Awake magazine says, Do you have an open mind? That's the opening title.

That's the title on the front cover. Do you have an open mind? And there is a gentleman sitting there, and he's a very distinguished looking person, and he has his hand up to his chin in that thoughtful pose, and he's looking off into space, and the question is,

Do you have an open mind? And so, you open up to the article that speaks about this question, about,

Do you have an open mind? And interestingly enough, some of the title, well, the main title is,

An Open Mind Wins God's Approval. And some of the things that it says are most interesting.

It starts off, The importance of having an open mind so as to win God's approval is shown in the words recorded in Ephesians 5, 10, and 17.

There we read, Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord. On this account, cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is.

But is it not a fact that many people have closed minds when it comes to religion? Some even reject the idea of a supreme being and are unwilling to listen to the evidence of his existence presented by believers.

For them, religion is a closed subject. But it goes on from there, it says, Avoid religious prejudice.

How to find religious truth? And there is specifically a picture of a man standing at a doorway, and it's a drawing, it's not actually a picture.

And obviously one of Jehovah's Witnesses is attempting to explain something from one of the

Watchtower publications to this individual. And the caption says, Do you reject a message because of preconceived ideas, or do you investigate?

When you read this particular article, and then you read the next article, the one that I mentioned from the 1986

Watchtower magazine, you cannot help but be struck by the tremendous inconsistency that exists between the two.

And it's not exactly an accident that in the Awake magazine, which is meant to be given to people outside of the

Watchtower Society, there is this strong encouragement to people to have an open mind, to listen to what

Jehovah's Witnesses have to say. Don't allow religious groups to prejudice your thinking.

Don't allow religious groups to give you preconceived ideas about the Watchtower Society. Listen to our message.

Investigate what we have to say, is what they're saying to the person outside the Society. But then, barely a little over a year and a half later, not even a full year and a half, just a little over a year later, in writing to the individuals within the

Society, what are they told? Do you wisely destroy apostate material? Apostate material is like gangrene, it's like pornography.

Don't listen to anyone criticizing the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Don't investigate what they have to say.

The contrast has always stuck with me. Almost every time now that Jehovah's Witnesses come by my home, and I don't know why they haven't put a big

X on my house yet, they will soon enough, I'm sure.

But almost every time that I talk with them, I bring this issue up. And I point out to them, you know,

I can read your literature. And if you want to offer me literature right now, I can take it, and I can examine it, and I can compare what you teach with what the

Bible teaches, and I can sit down with you, and I can talk to you about the Trinity and the deity of Christ, and whether there's only 144 ,000, quote, anointed

Christians, and if there's a great crowd, and all the rest of that stuff. I have the freedom to do that.

And there's nothing that you have to say that somebody's going to come along and tell me, oh, don't listen to that.

But you don't have that freedom. You do not have the freedom to listen to what

I have to say to you. Now, why would the Watchtower Society say one thing to outsiders and something else to insiders?

Well, in fact, what if someone had read the November 22nd, 1984, Awake magazine, and had said, you know what?

I think I'll do that. I think I'll examine what the Jehovah's Witnesses have to say. And so they set up a, well, they call it a

Bible study, but it's actually a book study. It's a study of Watchtower literature. And the person goes, you know what?

I like that. And so they're baptized during the district conventions of 1985, the summer of 1985.

So they've been a Jehovah's Witness about seven months, when the Watchtower magazine comes out, eight months, and says, now, don't listen to what anybody else tells you about the

Society. Hmm. Do you see a double standard there? I sure do.

And in the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses that you encounter, that hypocrisy exists.

And they will ask you to listen to what they have to say, but if you demonstrate that you have a knowledge of their beliefs and your beliefs, and you try to share with them, there's going to be a real hesitance on the part of the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses to listen to what you have to say.

But, and here's where we have some new developments in the Watchtower Society, there may be, at least on a very, very, very small scale, some change in the

Society's attitude toward this particular issue. And to what do I refer? Well, individual

Jehovah's Witnesses have been long discouraged from reading anything that is contradictory to or critical of the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. And those of us who have written things that are contradictory to and critical of the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society have always felt that the main reason for that is that they don't have any meaningful answers for the objections that are raised for the historical faux pas that the

Society is so easily documented to have committed, and for the various contradictory reasons that they give for their various contradictory beliefs.

But recently, there has been a little bit of a change, and I think mostly this change has been forced upon the

Society by the fact that information is so much more readily available to people today.

And the main way in which that has changed is that behemoth of a monster, that tremendous advance in technology that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, called the

Internet. Jehovah's Witnesses are all over the Internet. I don't think that anyone can avoid now some interaction with the

Internet. In fact, everyone's always looking at everybody else saying, what's your email? And while that used to be something that only geeks would say to other geeks, now it's pretty common for people to say, well, my email is such and so.

And so you can contact me here, and you can send me stuff here, and so on and so forth. And most of us are starting to become very familiar with .coms,

.orgs, .nets, such and such a person, at such and such an address, .com, whatever it might be.

Well, that means that individual Jehovah's Witnesses who are going online are going to encounter webpages such as our own, webpages that specifically provide documentation of historical teachings, the

Watchtower Society that your average new Jehovah's Witness, your average convert, would never have encountered if they hadn't been looking for it.

And so the society has been faced with answering a question. Up until the past number of years, individual

Jehovah's Witnesses who sort of went out on their own and decided to become Jehovah's Witness apologists have found themselves in hot water.

In fact, one individual was disfellowshipped from the Watchtower Society for, quote, running ahead of the

Brethren, end quote, because he self -published a book in defense of the

Watchtower Society. You see, the society has had to keep a very, very close control over how it defends itself.

When you're constantly trying to cover up past mistakes, and you're constantly changing your doctrine and coming up with new things, and eventually, for example, they'll have to abandon the 1914 thing, and so they're positioning themselves in such a way as to be able to say, well, what we've always meant by that is this.

You have to be able to control your apologetic methodology. You have to be able to control what you say to be able to do what the

Watchtower Society has done for the past hundred years or so. And so they don't want to have individual

Witnesses going out there and creating compilations of quotations that could basically come back to bite them, come back to prove to be embarrassing.

And so, as a result, the Watchtower Society has kept a very strict control over its apologetic methodology, primarily defining how

Witnesses can defend themselves through the pages of the Watchtower magazine, through our Kingdom ministry, and especially through a book that came out in 1985, has been revised since then, entitled

Reasoning from the Scriptures. Reasoning from the Scriptures. This is their new service ministry manual.

It replaced the Make Sure book a number of years ago. So, the

Society has controlled that. But within the past couple of years, it seems that they have somewhat loosened their control over individual

Witnesses. I wrote a review in the Christian Research Journal of a book written by a man named

Greg Stafford, Jehovah's Witnesses Defended, an answer to scholars and critics.

And this is a self -published book. It is published by Elihu Books, which is Greg Stafford.

And it is a fairly lengthy book. To any individual who is not familiar with Jehovah's Witness history, and with the languages of the

Bible, and with biblical exegesis, New Testament studies, historical issues, and things like that, it looks extremely in -depth.

And it's not badly written. In fact, it's written a little bit better than most Watchtower literature is, which has never been really known for reading very smoothly.

And so, a number of us have been watching very, very closely what's going to happen to Mr.

Stafford and to his associates in the Internet. Because there is an entire group of Jehovah's Witness apologists who dwell in the cyber world of the

Internet. And these individuals are actively involved in producing web pages.

And what makes both Stafford and his associates in the Internet most interesting is the fact that they cite in their books, books written by Christians specifically against the

Watchtower Society. And Mr. Stafford, in his first edition of his book, made mention of Ron Rhodes and others who specifically wrote responses to the

Watchtower Society. And I've been told that in the second edition of his book, which I haven't obtained yet, he inserted a number of responses to criticisms that I made of his book in my book,

The Forgotten Trinity. And, of course, these web pages produced by Jehovah's Witness apologists respond to specific criticisms from former witnesses and others in regards to the

Watchtower Society. And so the question really is, what's the society going to do about this?

Here are individuals who are providing apologetic responses, not in the name of the society, but in defense of the society.

And in years past, that simply would not have been allowed, because here you have individuals who are a part of the congregation, and yet you can't cite books by Ron Rhodes or James White or Robert Bowman or anyone else without reading those books.

And yet, possessing and reading that literature is grounds for being disfellowshipped.

So, what's the society going to do? Obviously, so far, they've done nothing.

Will they continue that stance? Well, if they do, then this is going to mark a fairly radical departure from the perspective that has, up to this point in time, reigned in the

Brooklyn headquarters, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Bethel headquarters. What's that going to mean?

I really can't tell you, other than it's going to make it much more difficult in the long run for the governing body to change theology as they have in the past, because they cannot control this type of literature.

They cannot control what's being written by types of individuals such as these. That's going to cause all sorts of difficulties, especially if all of a sudden we wake up tomorrow and the society has decided to change 1914, for example.

And anyone who knows literature knows that not only have there been efforts to change the 1914 date, and for those of you that aren't familiar with it, the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society continues to teach, this is not what they used to teach in the past, but they teach, currently anyways, that Jesus Christ returned invisibly in 1914.

And the generation that was alive to see the events of 1914 will not pass away until Armageddon takes place.

Well, 1914 was a long, long time ago. It's not too far in the future when that's going to be an entire hundred years.

And during the history of this particular century, the interpretation of that 1914 issue has gone from, well, you had to be at least 10 years old in 1914, which means you now have to be 95, to be able to have understanding of what was going on, to now it's just as long as you were born, and now we're starting to see these ideas of maybe creating a new class to help the anointed and all this stuff.

They're obviously positioning themselves in such a way as to avoid having to deal with the 1914 issue too much farther into the future because it's really difficult to deal with.

And we also happen to know, because of a book by Fred Franz, who was disfellowshipped from the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, but was one of the members of the governing body of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, that a vote was once taken in the governing body to change 1914 and to connect it to the launching of the

Russian Sputnik on the basis of Matthew 24 and signs in the heavens. And so if that type of thing has happened in the past, and if we recognize, for example, that the

Awake magazine used to always have as a part of its specific assertion these words, most importantly,

This magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure New Order before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.

I just read that from the 1984 Awake. That itself has been changed a couple times, dropped, edited, so on and so forth.

There are signs that the Watchtower Society recognizes they can't keep this 1914 teaching in the form it's in right now.

Well, what happens if you have a Jehovah's Witness who develops an entire apologetic for 1914, which is very difficult to do anyways because the entire 1914 prophecy and teaching is based upon changing history.

Anyone, any Jehovah's Witness who goes outside the Society to study the issues will discover that the

Society is the only organization on Earth that holds to the various views that it does in regards to the fall of Jerusalem and things like that.

But they've got to change that. What if a person creates an apologetic in defense of that? And then the

Society goes and changes it. Here's just more documentation, more evidence of the fact that the

Watchtower Society says we are Jehovah's organization, we are Jehovah's servant in these end times, we're the faithful and discreet slave, and yet they can't get their doctrine straight.

They have to keep editing their doctrine to change and cover up the errors they've made in the past.

This is a big issue. And it will affect how you do the work of evangelization at your door or in your work or whatever else it might be in sharing the

Gospel with Jehovah's Witnesses. Because if there is a change, then maybe there will be a little bit more openness to presenting to these individuals facts, documentation,

Biblical argumentation. Now of course to be able to take advantage of that, we as Christians have to be ready to give a solid argument for what we believe.

And the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Jehovah's Witnesses are some of the toughest people there are to talk to on these issues.

They often spend as many as five hours a week preparing to talk to you, but we rarely spend five hours a week preparing to talk to them.

And so it can be a great challenge. You learn a lot about your faith when you take the time to talk to this particular group.

And in fact, after we take a break, we're going to look at what their doctrines are and what their specific beliefs are.

But for now, keep in mind, there may be a change here. There may be a way of sort of getting a little bit more of the foot into the door to share the truth of these individuals and to help them to come to understand what it is the

Scriptures say in regards to who Christ is, in regards to what salvation is, and so on and so forth.

We can at least say to them, well look, here's some Jehovah's Witnesses.

Here's a Greg Stafford. Here's an individual out here that I've talked to in the Internet who takes the time to read what

James White says or what Robert Bowman says or what is published in the CRI Journal.

And so if they're able to do that and they haven't been disfellowshipped for taking those actions, then maybe you likewise could take that type of an action and you could examine some of these things too.

That may be a way in which we can attempt in some way, shape, or form to open that door.

Now, you probably have questions in regards to Watchtower Bible & Track Society. You may know individuals at work who you are dialoguing with or maybe you're meeting with some folks.

Maybe you have some Scripture passages you'd like to look to. We'd like to invite you to participate in the program today at 508 -0960.

508 -0960. If you're outside the

Phoenix dialing area, which again, I don't know where in the world that is, but if you're outside the dialing area, 1 -888 -TALK -960.

1 -888 -TALK -960. Let me know what questions you have about the

Watchtower Bible & Track Society. Is there something that's confusing to you about their theology?

Something that's confusing to you about what they believe? I'd like to try to help you with that, if there are specific questions.

And barring that, I am going to try to provide you somewhat of a summary statement of what

Jehovah's Witnesses believe so that you can figure out right now, not once the doorbell rings.

Once the doorbell rings and the adrenaline starts, that's not the time to be trying to figure out what subjects you're going to address.

Okay? We need to do a little thought now and prepare yourself now. Where do I want to go in talking to the

Jehovah's Witnesses? Where do I want to go in attempting to share with them? What subjects do

I need to be prepared for? And you may say, man, there's so many subjects. You've got the

Trinity, and you've got the deity of Christ, you've got the person of the Holy Spirit, you've got the doctrine of salvation, this idea of 144 ,000, and you've got different classes, you've got the great crowd, and the anointed class, and all the rest of this stuff, and they've got their own translation of the

Bible, and they've got this Greek interlinear, and all these different beliefs. How in the world can

I master all that? Well, you don't necessarily have to master all of that. It obviously helps to be familiar with those things.

But what you can do is focus upon a particular element of the gospel, know what they believe about that, and present that.

And present it clearly. Plant a seed. Be prepared to give a witness. And, of course, we'll talk a little bit about the fact that there are some folks that just shouldn't talk to them at all.

Why? Because you don't know your faith well enough. But I hope that'll be a challenge. We'll be right back right after this break.

My daddy will be right back. If you'd like to talk with him, you can call him now at 508 -0960.

The phone lines are now open at 508 -0960. That's 508 -0960.

Please call. Because the more my husband talks now, the less he'll talk when he gets home. And talking is what we do here on The Dividing Line.

And we invite you to participate today at 508 -0960 or 1 -888 -TALK -960.

And we do have our first caller. This is Pauline in Glendale. Hi, Pauline. How are you? I'm fine. I see you have a question about witnessing to the witnesses and possibly the book

I have in my hand right now. My sister is a Jehovah's Witness. And she came over and gave me the book of knowledge that leads to everlasting life.

I have that one with me, too. And we decided that we would each... she doesn't live here.

She lives out of town. So we decided we'd go through each chapter. And at the end, there's questions to answer.

And so I was going to write my own answers instead of using, you know, they want you to get the information from what they provide.

And then we would, you know, exchange answers. And we've been doing that. And she sent me

Why You Shouldn't Believe in the Trinity, that pamphlet. And I'm having trouble getting her to take anything

I say seriously because she looks at me as an apostate to begin with. Were you a former member?

No, no, no. We were both raised, you know, in a Christian home. But she married a

Jehovah's Witness. I see. Okay. Well, inter -family situations are always extremely difficult because of the relationship that exists there and all those issues that come up.

And you're also in a difficult situation in that the knowledge book is going to direct you in particular directions that they want to go.

It's going to avoid passages of Scripture that they want to avoid. It's going to bring up only those passages of Scripture that they want to.

Right. That's why I've been going through it. And I can see the answers that they want given.

Right. And that's why I told her that I just, you know, I'll give you my answers and then we'll exchange.

Well, one of the things that you might want to try to bring up, and I'm looking through this right now.

I don't think there's a specific section. Maybe you could point me to one if there was. But there is a section in the older books that they use to study from that specifically addresses this issue of having an open mind and being willing to examine the religious dogmas that you have been taught.

And there are a number of statements like that in The Awake and even the Watchtower magazines, for that matter.

Right, right. So you might want to gather some of those together and say, why is it that you would not be willing to possibly look at something similar from my perspective to what you're doing?

I mean, we're going through one of your books. So why wouldn't you be willing to open up the Scriptures and do the same thing with a book from another perspective, from my perspective?

Maybe we could trade off doing something like that. The chances of that happening are pretty small. But the fact that you can present that and say, well, you know, there doesn't seem to be a give and take here.

There seems to be a double standard here. It might actually provide some grounds for saying, you know, it sounds like you tell others to make sure of all things.

But then once you become a Jehovah's Witness, you no longer accept that particular command. Why is that?

That might be a direction to go as well. But make sure, I think this is an important thing, make sure that any type of interchange like this that you have, make sure that you stay close to your church, your elders, draw from them.

There needs to be mature individuals involved in knowing what you're doing.

There's nothing more dangerous than jumping on the white horse and going charging off after these groups by yourself.

They like people to do that, because those are the people who end up making excellent

Jehovah's Witnesses. Exactly. That's why I've been immersing myself with apologetic literature.

I've got your book, and I've been getting as much information as I can.

When you're trying to discredit the Watchtower, what angle should you go from?

Doctrine, or their New World Testament translation? Well, there's a number of different ways in which you can do that, and it sort of depends upon the person with whom you're speaking.

There are objective, factual issues that you can address in regards to the

Watchtower Society, where they have specifically, for example, changed history. And it's one of the harder ones to do, but if you're successful at it, it can be very useful.

And that is demonstrating the 1914 issue. The simple fact of the matter is, Jerusalem did not fall in 605 to Nebuchadnezzar in his 19th regnal year, which is what they teach.

It fell in 586. So, you can document that so completely and so fully, and say, look, here is a historical issue.

It's not a matter of your interpretation, my interpretation. It's a historical issue, and we can determine exactly when this happened, why does the

Watchtower Society have to change this? In fact, why do they teach 1914 now when they once taught 1874?

And used to teach that every spiritually minded person knew that Christ would turn invisibly in 1874. Why is that?

The problem is, most Jehovah's Witnesses, as soon as you even demonstrate that you've done that type of level of research, immediately shut down the conversation.

They've just been taught that, uh -oh, I don't have a sheep -like individual here, let's bail, let's get out of here.

Right. Well, see, I did do that. I found some information with the proper date for the fall of Jerusalem when one of the questions in that book came up.

And I sent it to her. And I haven't actually heard from her since. Well, that unfortunately, but you can't help but speak the truth and leave the rest of it to God.

And every individual Jehovah's Witness that I know of who has left the Society and come to know

Christ, there's a distinction there. There's a lot of Witnesses who leave the Society for various Sunday reasons, but end up just being a standard pagan on the street that doesn't believe in anything.

Right. But to leave the Society and find Christ, those individuals have all said to me, eventually somewhere along the road

I met someone who knew what they believed and why they believed it, and even though I didn't let on to them that they had really rocked me, they did.

And that's what started it with me. I had the wonderful opportunity of talking to a former

Jehovah's Witness that I had corresponded with years ago, back in the 1980s, around the same time as these

Watchtower and Awakes. And he's now a believer. And it was truly an encouragement to me when he said, you are the first person who ever showed me this particular issue in the

Bible. It was specifically in John 12, verses 39 -41, in comparison with Isaiah 6, where Jesus identifies

Jehovah. He said, you're the first one who ever showed that to me. And here's someone who's been going door -to -door for years.

So it was really encouraging to me. Here's an example. At the time, man, he didn't give me the slightest indication that that in any way, shape, or form had an impact on him.

But it did. And it took time, and that's why a lot of people don't do this type of ministry, because it does take time.

It takes patience. Sometimes you don't even get to see the results of your labor. But God is glorified and we speak

His truth. So yes, you can go the historical route, you can go the New World Translation route, but be aware of the fact that there's all sorts of complex defenses for the

NWT out there. It doesn't mean they're solid, but for a Jehovah's Witness who wants to try to find a defense, and isn't overly concerned whether it's actually consistent or not, those defenses are now out there.

So those issues are there, the New World Translation's there, and the theology's there. And as I've said to many folks,

I think the strongest approach you can use with a Jehovah's Witness is demonstrating that Jesus is Jehovah. Those passages,

I think, are most useful, and there's a chapter in the book on that specific thing as well. Right. Well, thank you very much.

Well, thank you, Pauline. God bless you. And thank you for your book and your ministry. It's been very useful. Alrighty. God bless. Thank you very much.

Bye -bye. Bye -bye. 5080960.

5080960 is the number. I think we've got time to get Robert on the air. Hi, Robert, how are you? Hello, sir.

How's it going? It's going pretty good. Okay, why is it that they call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses?

What do they do with Yahweh? Is Jehovah their God, and Yahweh they deny?

No, specifically, the passage that gives rise to their name is Isaiah 43 .10.

It says, You are my witnesses, declares Jehovah. And they use the

Anglicized, it's actually a Germanicized pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, Yod -Heh -Wau -Heh, as Jehovah.

They recognize that most scholars identify the more likely pronunciation, well, certainly more likely, because Jehovah can't possibly be the actual pronunciation, as Yahweh.

They recognize that. But in essence, they argue that Jehovah has become the standard pronunciation.

It is used by Jehovah's Witnesses all across the world. It provides sort of a sense of unity there.

And at least a number of years ago, and I don't want to say something I can't verify now, but at least a number of years ago, you would not have had the freedom in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses to use the more accurate pronunciation.

That would have been considered somewhat disruptive to the congregation, etc., etc. But no, they're not quote -unquote denying

Yahweh. They recognize that Yahweh is Jehovah, so on and so forth. They just have a very strong fixation on that name.

Many Jehovah's Witnesses are very surprised to discover that there are any of us out here who use the Divine Name, that know who

Jehovah is, that know what Yahweh means. I know in the hymns in my own church, there's many references to Jehovah.

But many Witnesses think they're the only ones who know the Divine Name. And that's why, again, demonstrating the

New Testament uses the name Jehovah of Jesus is extremely useful for Jehovah's Witnesses, because that cuts through all the discussion of, well, is

He a God, is He a mighty God, but not the Almighty God, all the rest of that stuff. Look, if Jesus is

Jehovah to a Witness, that's it. You can argue all you want about other issues.

If Jesus is Jehovah, that's it. So those passages, I think, are the most useful in getting past a lot of the rhetoric and really presenting something to them.

So they come forth and they say that they're a Jehovah Witness, but where does Jesus, for them, fit in all of that?

And I'll take my answer off the air. Okay, well, thanks for calling in today. God bless. Well, specifically, and that's a big issue.

I remember one of the things that's, and I didn't bring it with me, but there was a large, I think it was a red -colored book called, had something to do with Revelation, and there was a pink box, text box on one page that proudly explained how the

Witnesses used to have X number of hymns in their hymnal praising

Jesus, and how that number kept going down, and the number of hymns praising

Jesus went up. And I remember attending a kingdom hall in Scottsdale where I specifically kept track, this was a number of years ago, how many times the name

Jesus was used during the services and how many times the name of Jehovah was used.

And even though the talk was on light, and of course Jesus is the light, Jesus' name was used exactly twice in the entire service, both at the end of prayers.

And I lost track of the name Jehovah somewhere around 120, 120 times. And yet, even in the

New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses, if you take their own concordance, and count the number of times they've inserted the name

Jehovah into the New Testament 237 times. But even in their own translation, the name of Jesus appears over 900 times.

Over three times, almost four times as often, the name of Jesus appears, and yet in Jehovah's Witness publications,

Jehovah's Witness church services, so on and so forth, you will not see a New Testament balance.

A New Testament emphasis upon the name of Jesus at all. And that's because in Watchtower Theology, Jesus is

Michael the Archangel, and I don't believe there's any salvation in Michael the Archangel.

Well, our phone lines are open, we've got another caller, but we need to take a break. We hope to hear from you at 508 -0960.

I think that means I'm back. I was just sitting back listening to John Tesh there.

But anyways, we are talking about Jehovah's Witnesses today, and your calls are welcome at 508 -0960, or 1 -888 -TALK -960.

We have about 13 minutes left, maybe a little less than that. Let's talk to Chenda in Phoenix.

Hello! Hello, yes, I have a question regarding witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses.

With regards to the Trinity, and I've read several books that tells you that, or says that the doctrine of the

Trinity actually started in ancient Babylonian. You have the mystery cults that also started in Egypt, and Christianity adopted a lot of these customs from the ancient

Egyptians and the Babylonian system. So how can, as a Christian, you reconcile that if it all started in paganism?

Well, of course, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity has nothing whatsoever to do with paganism. Those who would say that the

Christian doctrine of the Trinity comes from Egypt are just very, very badly in error, and probably don't understand what the doctrine of the

Trinity is anyways. None of those triads of gods were based upon a monotheistic affirmation, that there is only one true and eternal

God. All of those triads of gods came out of polytheistic religions, not monotheistic religions.

And hence, at the very foundation of the doctrine itself, those ancient mythologies had nothing to do with a monotheistic religious belief.

And so, while it is very common for certain people to try to make those connections, they do so only at the sacrifice of consistency, and only at the sacrifice of recognizing that the

Christian doctrine of the Trinity is based upon a completely different perspective. A Christian believes in the doctrine of the

Trinity, because a Christian accepts all of Scripture, and only Scripture. And since we do, the

Scriptures teach three foundational truths. A, that there is only one true

God. B, that that one true God exists in three persons, the

Father, the Son, and the Spirit. And C, that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are co -equal and co -eternal.

And therefore, those three biblical foundations are the foundations of the doctrine of the

Trinity. That's why Christians believe it. It's not because Christians couldn't understand what the

Scriptures had to say, and had to go borrow from somebody else to come up with the doctrine of God. The simple fact of the matter is, we believe all that the

Scripture teaches. And since the Scripture teaches those three foundations, monotheism, the existence of three divine persons, and the equality of those persons, that's why we believe in the doctrine of the

Trinity. So, be very careful as you're looking at literature out there. Recognize that especially secular literature is going to very often be based upon a a priori rejection of the idea that religion is supernatural, and that there can be any supernatural revelation.

And therefore, you will find all sorts of secular writings that say, well, certainly

Christianity couldn't believe these things because the Bible teaches it. But instead, we have to look for all these genealogical relationships and so on and so forth.

That isn't the case. I am a biblical Trinitarian because I believe what the Bible says in its entirety.

I believe what the Bible teaches about all three of those particular issues. 508 -0960,

I guess we lost her, but 508 -0960 is the number, 1 -888 -TALK -960.

We are trying to get some phone calls on the line here, and there are a couple lines left open if you would like to participate in the program today with your questions about Jehovah's Witnesses, about the folks who come to your door and they have the

New World Translation, and they have the Watchtower Bible and Track Society literature and things like that, and they want to talk to you about Armageddon or whatever it might be.

508 -0960, let's talk with Dennis. Hi, Dennis! Dennis, are you there? Maybe...

Hello? Hello, yes sir, are you there? Yeah, I'm here, I just turned my radio down. Okay. So, yeah, I was just wondering, do they believe that the man

Jesus Christ is the way to salvation? Well, they speak of Jesus Christ as being the

Savior, but I think we need to define exactly what they mean by that. First of all, Jesus Christ in Watchtower theology was created by Jehovah God as Michael the

Archangel. And there is a good deal of discussion about the fact that if you read very closely what the society has taught over the years, we might say that Michael the

Archangel became Jesus of Nazareth, and then when Jesus died, he became

Michael the Archangel again. That's how most witnesses would understand it. But if you actually look rather closely, there's somewhat of a break, and it's really more the idea that Jehovah created

Michael, and that when Jesus came into existence, Michael ceased to exist, and when

Jesus died, then Michael came back into existence. Not so much as a resurrection, mainly because, from the

Watchtower's perspective, Michael's a spirit being, but Jesus is a human being, and human beings do not have a spirit or a soul in the sense of a spiritual aspect to them.

The soul is merely the breath of life. And so there's a break, in essence, in the existence of Michael that lasts about 33 years, and then he's recreated by Jehovah.

And Jesus, as the physical man, does not exist today. Watchtower Society teaching denies the reality of the physical resurrection.

They say that Jesus was resurrected merely as a spirit. Now, of course, the word resurrection means that which died coming to life again, so the entire

Watchtower idea of what resurrection is really doesn't make a lot of sense. But, from their perspective, the physical body of Jesus was either, there have been various speculations over time, dissolved into gases, or is somewhere on display as a memorial to Jehovah's love, but the point is that the physical bodies that Michael the archangel had in convincing his disciples he was raised from the dead, he only manifested, he only created them to try to convince his disciples that he was alive.

He does not continue to have that physical body today, from their perspective. And so, that individual is meant in Watchtower Society to be the exact counterbalance to Adam.

In fact, there's a picture in the old You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth book of Jesus and Adam standing on a pair of those old weighted scales, and they're evenly balanced.

So, from their perspective, Jesus could be no more or no less than what Adam was, so that he could provide a way of salvation.

But the idea that Jesus is the one who himself saves, in the way that Christian theology speaks of it, that's something

Jehovah's Witnesses would not have a grasp on. In fact, this is, in my experience, the weakest area that Jehovah's Witnesses have, is the area of salvation.

After they get past a few surface verses, most of them simply have not invested a lot of time into examining what the

New Testament teaches on this, and the main reason for that is Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the vast majority of the

New Testament wasn't written for them. Since they're not of what's called the anointed class, they're of what's called the great crowd, they believe that most of the

New Testament was written to the anointed class. And all those promises that we read and we take for granted as precious promises to us, to them, are for somebody else.

And so that's actually a rather good area to address, is the centrality of who Christ is. I often speak of being in Christ to Jehovah's Witnesses, because I'm trying to excite in them a desire to understand what the

New Testament is teaching about that. And so, not in the sense, to answer your question, not in the sense that the

Bible teaches it. They would say there's no salvation without Him, but He is not the central figure in salvation the way

He is in the New Testament. Yeah, because if Jesus is merely just a created being and not holy God, then it's hard to see how

He, a creature, could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Well, not only that, but I would point out that there is no salvation in Michael the

Archangel. My salvation is not to be found in Him. Well, thank you, Dennis, we're about out of time. Thank you for calling.

God bless. I hope that God will bless your efforts in sharing with Jehovah's Witnesses, and I hope that's the case with everyone.

I hope that you've been challenged to know your faith ever deeper, to know your faith in such a way that you can share it with the

Jehovah's Witnesses when they come. I hope you'll be with us again next week here on The Dividing Line. Thanks for being with us.

God bless. You can also find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks on our website.

Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p .m. for The Dividing Line. Hey, once again,

I'm going to need to take a couple of minutes here and set up the next tape. Got to do a little editing on what we just recorded.