The God Who Justifies | w/ Dr. James White

Well hello and welcome everybody to the Apologetic Dog.

I just want to thank you so much for all your support and joining us for contending for the faith.

The Apologetic Dog is obviously an apologetics ministry that I want us to be grounded in God's Word.

So if you look at our Reform Dogs logo then you see 1st

Timothy 620.

This verse kind of grounds the ministry and the kind of vision that I see in the direction that I want to go.

That verse says, O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you.

Avoid irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

And so the Apologetic Dog represents Christians.

We contend for the gospel of grace.

And so if you don't, if you haven't already, please subscribe to this channel.

I have a website these days so if you want to check me out there and just show some support.

Real quick I actually want to bring up a few announcements in the upcoming future.

I have a debate.

I forget what number of debate this is but I will be debating against a gentleman and he will be

defending the doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

So that'll be on Marlon's channel at The Gospel Truth so you don't want to miss that.

That's coming up here in August.

So next on the list is I will be speaking at a conference in Indiana on why eschatology

matters.

I cannot believe that I somehow got roped into this.

I was so comfortable with my pre -millennial dispensationalism and I realized I can't hang out there.

I can't hang out there and do justice warring against heresy that's creeping into the church like full

preterism.

And so I've been given the task to preach on the resurrection of the dead.

So this will be in Tampika, Indiana and this will be in September.

So mark this down on your calendars.

I cannot wait for that.

And my last announcement is I have another debate coming up in Texas maybe.

So this is a little bit ways off towards the end of October but me and

Mr. Michael Hysall we're gonna be talking about justification and how that relates to

baptism.

So mark that on your calendars if you are interested and would like to keep up with the apologetic dog.

But today is a very important and special episode.

I have a guest that needs no introduction.

Dr. White is in the building.

How are you doing today sir?

Oh not too bad.

Hanging out in my RV.

Hanging out in the RV.

So where are you traveling at right now?

I've been in Colorado for over three weeks now.

I head home over the weekend but I was supposed to be doing a big swing through the Midwest

but had some food poisoning that changed those

plans and so I've just been chilling here in Colorado.

Spoken to a number of churches here and and stuff like that.

Dodging an amazing amount of rain.

We just had hail and yeah it's

weather's been very very interesting.

But here we are in our in our mobile studio.

I think I'm the only person that has a two -camera

4k mobile studio that I can that I can have running down the

road with me.

So I don't do it while I'm actually moving obviously.

That would be sort of stupid but yeah.

So I bet you I bet you're ready to get back and I'm looking forward to you come back to 12 .5 church.

I can't wait to see what.

You're gonna teach on next.

Yeah I I'm definitely racking up the miles next big trip.

Next big trip is back to I'll be in Pennsylvania with a debate.

I think the fellow's name is Gregory Coles on whether gay

Christian is an appropriate category to be used in the church.

And then I head straight down to G3 for the big conference and

come back through Louisiana.

So yeah September is gonna be a 5 ,000 mile drive and

we're now looking at.

You seem so thrilled.

Well I do enjoy it but it is it is a lot of work.

There's no choice about it and you're you're dodging dodging semi tractor trailers and

everything else.

So it's it has its own pleasures and.

Dangers as well.

That's right and in February this is something where you and I will cross paths

again.

I believe you're gonna have a debate at this conference with Jeffrey Rice in

Tennessee.

So that's a little bit a ways.

Away but I bet you didn't know.

I'm not debating Jeff.

I just want everybody to know.

Oh well I would pay to see that.

You said you're gonna having a debate with Jeffrey Rice.

I want everybody to know I'm not gonna not gonna be debating Jeffrey Rice because he's my he's my source man.

I mean he just he just took me up with with the text I'm gonna preach

from it at G3.

It's a Hebrew Bible and it's all Hebrew and you can see it's

let me see if I can find it.

You know it's got the nice gold gilded pages until you open it and then

it's purple.

So it's a large print large print.

You can't find too many large print Hebrew texts around so.

Now you go.

You rightly said you're not debating Jeffrey Rice but can you tell us anything about what you will be debating on at this

conference?

Yeah I.

Can.

I'm debating the same fellow I debated back in February there.

He is a landmark Baptist and he's a he's a sharp fellow but

I'll be honest I'm not sure how it's gonna work out because if anybody watched that debate

you're too you're too young to remember this but back in the 1980s we had a television

commercial for FedEx and it was all about how FedEx was really fast

and get delivering your your packages and so they hired this guy who is a

speed talker and so he would just sit there and he would rip through stuff he's he's got

multiple phones and and this was the the FedEx thing.

Well that's the guy I'm debating.

Same thing at the debate if you did you see the debate in that we did in February?

Absolutely.

Okay so two he had 235 slides for a single debate

and you may have noticed they all had so much text on them no one even in the room could read them before he

was done and he wasn't debating for anybody in that room.

He could it could have been an empty room he did not care he was debating for something he was debating for Landmark Baptist

yeah and so I'm supposed to be getting back to him and talking about this.

I'm going to try to encourage him to actually do a debate for the people that are in the room

but I'll be honest with you I don't have a high level of confidence that that's what's gonna

end up happening be perfectly honest with you so that one's got me a little and the thing is that's

February and we are we are scheduling at

least four major debates in Houston in February as well

probably on the way out to Tullahoma and on the way back Trent Horn of Catholic Answers Dale

Tuggy the Unitarian and Layton Flowers

on John 6 so yeah it's gonna be

a really really really really busy period of time.

I've never done that many debates at one time so it's gonna be a challenge.

No no no we're talking we're talking five possibly six debates and that's just

that's just in a ridiculous amount of material to be writing on and presenting

on because they're very different topics and so yeah it's gonna be it's gonna be

interesting I see you're trying to catch up with my debate tally however

so February will put me pretty close to 190 so got a little

something to keep for but you're much younger than I am so you know I'm

I'm so old they're about to put me out to pasture anyway so hey we have just slightly different colored beards.

Yes yes mine is definitely shows the wear and tear of 40

years in ministry so because I'm only 42 so well.

Hey dr. why I bet you didn't know I was speaking at this same conference with you but I have been invited

to do the pre -conference and I'm talking about your favorite subject of the dangers of full preterism.

So I.

I didn't.

I cannot believe that this task has been given to me because here in Jonesboro Arkansas land

for whatever reason this has creeped up inside the church.

We have you know self -proclaimed pastors preaching this from the pulpit and people are like scratching their heads saying Jeremiah

what is that.

I'm like I don't know but I'll go figure it out.

So I got to connect with Jeffrey Rice and so I'll be honored to be a part of the whole conference.

With y 'all I'll be at your.

Debate root me on.

Hopefully and it will be at a much nicer location.

Yeah we'll be able to have a lot more people there.

We were a little bit crammed in in February but it's nice that hopefully

it'll be a good turnout and so I have to somehow arrange that

teaching in Conway and arrange the schedules of

three different guys to come into Houston all to make that work.

I don't know how it's gonna happen but that's what we're working on now.

Well it'll be good.

Hopefully we won't see death by a thousand slides again but I'm looking for it.

But dr. white you're on today because I reached out to you and I thought hey

let's talk about a book you wrote a while back that's been very helpful for me contending

for the faith.

You wrote this book the God who justifies.

So my first question is kind of what prompted you to write this book.

In the first place it's interesting that that

book took me the longest to write of any of the books that I've written most of the I've not written

a book in a while and part of it is just I think age

and just trying to keep up with travel and stuff like that.

And it's just harder as you get older I think but I

had already covered you know I've written about the Trinity and solo scriptura and Bible

translation and Roman Catholicism and Mormonism.

And obviously I started it right when the federal vision movement

stuff erupted and it's not an it's not a response to

an NT right or new perspectivism.

I I sort of mentioned in passing that the problem is if you try to

respond to all the stuff that's out there it'll end up.

I mean it's a fairly lengthy book as it is it'll end up being just huge

and nobody will read it.

And so I felt there was a need because there was so much I don't

know people scholars like to write books

that will keep them employed and advance their their track toward tenure at

seminaries.

Okay that unfortunately is just a reality and just as with

my book on the Trinity I am seeking to

benefit pastors benefit the church benefit the people sitting in the pews

and I'm seeking to do that by being what used to be

a badge of honor and now is a badge of shame in certain elements

of the Reformed movement and that is being a Biblicist being

focused upon you know I'm a biblical Trinitarian I believe in the

Trinity because of certain doctrines that are revealed in Scripture and that's the you know that's

following the Apostles that's believing what the Apostles taught.

And as far as the gospel and justification is concerned there are a few topics that are

are more fully addressed in the New Testament than the subject of

justification.

I mean between Romans and Galatians you have a lot of specific

argumentation on all the aspects that surround the doctrine of justification and

yet that was not in church history the focus of the early

centuries.

I I teach church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary there in Conway and we did early

church history recently and you know one of the things that is somewhat of a

mystery is the early church is very focused upon

Christological issues you know the Council of Nicaea, Chalcedon, things like that but when it

came to for example the first full -length treatise on the atonement to

appear is from Athanasius in the fourth century and of course a

lot of Christians today would struggle to define theories of the atonement or even

where they themselves land in regards to historical discussions these things but the

point is that the primary interesting concern of the church

in history has been focused on other areas and it really isn't

until Augustine that you start touching on a these areas with Pelagius, the Donatists,

things like that but still that's right Augustine is right at the

end of the Roman Empire as Europe is sliding into what we call the Dark Ages

and it's not the theological thought stopped during that period of time but you have to remember

in Europe for hundreds of years the average person never moved

more than seven miles any one direction from where they were born

and so the need for theological communication,

the ability to hear from others and to be able to bounce ideas off and things like that

pretty much came to a halt in the West when the Roman Empire collapsed

in the West and became much more minimized in the East and they had a

few more hundred years before the rise of Islam so there's some interesting

church history aspects to keep in mind and so when you talk about justification

it is something that has clearly been discussed a great deal in the West since the Reformation

but in the East it's still especially in Eastern

Orthodoxy is a frozen subject I guess

would be the way I put it what I mean by that is Eastern Orthodoxy which is making a lot of headway these days.

There's a you know there's there's people in in the West that are being attracted to it.

They don't like Francis they don't really like Rome all that much because of what

they've already experienced with that and so Eastern Orthodoxy provides a liturgical

mysterious alternative.

The problem is Eastern Orthodoxy today is basically the traditions of the

seventh and eighth centuries fossilized.

It's like it's it's there's a set in stone and that's what

defines Eastern Orthodoxy now.

I'm not getting into Eastern Orthodoxy right now but they just that's not an area that they have a lot of

focus on and many times they just look at Protestants and Roman Catholics and go well that's something you all

argue about.

We've got all this figured out a long time ago they're kind of but there's really no emphasis though

upon a biblical doctrine of sin a biblical doctrine of the deadness of man and sin

these are these are things that aren't there so all of that to say that I felt that there was

a a real for a biblically based a biblicist

examination of the doctrine justification because once again I come out of a background of debating

these things with Roman Catholicism and I've just simply

seen that for people to truly whether it's the Trinity justification

the doctrines of grace that the highest view of Scripture these are all

divine truths the the sheep of Christ they want to hear his voice

on these matters and so I didn't want to sit there and do some type of historical survey or

you know there's there's plenty of value to those things but from my

perspective the sheep of Christ become convinced of a

truth when it is brought to bear upon their heart from Scripture by by the

Spirit of God.

That's Scripture Scripture and the Spirit.

There was a guy named John Calvin who recognized how important all that stuff is is off his his

offspring in our day are trying to get rid of him in every way possible sadly.

But he recognized word and spirit.

Word and spirit.

That's that's what it's all about.

Not great traditions not something it's word and spirit and that remains the same today and so the book

itself I recognize that a lot of people

enjoy the first eight chapters and then go I may

use it as a resource in the future starting with chapter nine.

Oh yeah I had.

Those thoughts but in your book you talk about you know how this was contended for

in church history is a problem right.

Especially with the East and West along with those types of controversies.

So I'm going to the chat.

Asked a good question and we don't have to spend a whole lot of time on this.

But what's something over the next 50 years or so you seeing the next big challenge.

Well we have we have repetitive cycles of the same things.

Unfortunately nothing.

We go back things you know and you'll see this in the church over and

over again.

Obviously unless there is a major

event in world history nuclear war famine

an actual something other than a planned epidemic

you know a disease that actually like kills 70 of the people it infects instead of 0

.007.

Or that we could that that changes everything.

And how we respond to that changes everything where it's focused changes everything.

So I mean it's very easy to see some very negative

directions right now all you have to do is listen to you will know a Harari

a name that most people do not know but have seen clips of him.

He's sort of the scientific mind behind the World Economic Forum and you

you read his stuff.

And the movement toward transhumanism toward a

a utterly technologically based totalitarianism.

And we've got math.

I mean that's just gonna be massive challenges that the church has never faced before.

You know we can look back and learn a lot from history but but the interface

of technology and the utilization of technology by

secular humanism which hates human life we have

we have lots of books that have been written over the past 50 years telling us what the dangers were.

It's amazing to me.

I look I read 1984 and I see it happening around me.

I read Fahrenheit 451.

I see I see brave new world.

And then I another book I've suggested to people it's not a Christian book so be aware of that.

But this perfect day was written in 1975.

I believe I read 11 I think was the name and I read it during the

lockdowns.

I'm sitting here going how how did these people see this coming.

I I mean there's so much of it was completely in line.

And if if that's where we're headed for we can't look back at our experience

under the Soviet Union for example and really come up with really helpful

stuff because they didn't have the tech we could hide in the woods and have church services

with drones and satellites you can't hide anywhere and so yeah there's

some serious challenges and the impact let me tie this together with our

topic.

One of the challenges that I'm seeing right now already is as we are pushed into a smaller and smaller

cultural space.

When I say we I mean everyone who claims to be a Christian and as

in each group whether it's amongst Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or Protestants and our cult

groups like Mormonism is like that you start seeing a division you start seeing people.

It's amazing to me.

Did you know that the City Council

of Salt Lake City is 100 LGBTQ

know that whoa most people have no idea.

Yep the the collapse of Mormonism

on morals and ethics and especially in regards to marriage homosexuality

transgenderism.

It's astonishing and we're obviously you know we're used to seeing

quote -unquote progressives are we used to call them liberals.

We're used to seeing those folks you know just going with the culture and going with whatever the culture wants to

do.

You know all the the the Lutheran priestess woman with the with

the rainbow stole doing the Sparkle Creed a few weeks ago.

I'm not sure if you saw that maybe it wasn't allowed in your state but but

it's it's just the the level of apostasy is astonishing and so we've all have

those divisions but it's happening everywhere.

Rome has its father Martin promoting homosexuality and LGBTQ stuff amongst Roman

Catholicism and Francis thinks he's a great guy and so we're seeing those

divisions.

But as the conservatives conservative Catholics conservative Protestants conservative Eastern Orthodox we're

getting squished into a smaller and smaller space to be able to speak and that means we're getting

pushed closer and closer together and here's going to be the big issue if you and

your Roman Catholic neighbor both recognize

that what's going on in the world right now is utter insanity.

It's going to result in in massive loss of life

degradation of humanity.

How important is justification in all this.

Because the the temptation is well you know there's so few of

us now we all those of us who still have some kind of a commitment here we all need to sort of stick together

and yeah we've divided over this stuff in the past but maybe it's time

to stop doing that and stop dividing and change what we think is

definitional of the Christian faith that is that is a major major pressure it's happening

all over the place.

I think for example I've been given information that probably next month

while you and I are busy dealing with debates in our realm

that probably next month there's gonna be well there's going to be a conference held at Andy Stanley's

church and by look by looking at the people that are speaking it seems

pretty clear to me that they're going to adopt an affirming stance an ally stance the

LGBTQ movement and that's a that's a big bunch of evangelicals

and so what what's what's the result of that.

What what what kind of impact does that have.

And so doctrines like justification they I

think it was Murray who said that the doctrine justification no longer rings the bells of men's

hearts.

The reason for that is and I may have mentioned that in the book.

I mean I wrote the book 19 years ago so well

actually came out in 04 so yeah about 19 so I wrote it more than 20 years ago

like I said I worked on it for a number of years but but one of the things that

that I remember is the reason it doesn't ring the bells of men's

heart is because in Luther's Day every person

had seen death.

They had seen dead bodies in the street the the plague would come in and out

of of towns and to go to go study at university

you are risking your life because it was a lot safer to be out in the countryside than to go into a city.

And so death the the infant mortality rate every one of the

Reformers lost at least one child some more than one and this impacted people in

a massive way.

You lived surrounded by the reality that you may be standing before God in

judgment in a very short period of time in some forms of the plague there is there was one form of the

plague that people actually believed.

You got it by someone who had it looking at you.

And the reason was it was a pneumatic form of the passive lungs

and you basically had only 24 hours once you got it you're you're gone in one day.

So that was that was people's reality.

And so talking to them about justification righteousness being

right with God having a right standing what peace with God is.

Man everybody wanted to know about that because that's the reality.

What.

Where do we live now.

Most kids are never taken to a funeral.

Most funerals are closed casket.

Only a few decades only a few generations ago my my grandparents

would live with their they lived with their parents and their grandparents and their great -grandparents and they

all saw those people die in the same house and so they recognized

the continuing reality of death.

Now I was oh goodness I was in my late 30s I think

before I saw a dead body or saw someone actually die and we hide

our children from it.

We don't talk about it.

The church stinks of dealing with it to be perfectly honest with you.

And so you were a chaplain.

Weren't you for a time.

Yeah that that's that's where I saw that's where I broke all those those streaks

was was being in the presence of death.

And that's why justification for many people is just a

it's just a doctrine.

That's out there someplace right.

It's not something they see is actually relevant to them right now before

they get in that car and drive down the road.

That's why you know justification by faith alone was the material doctrine of the Reformation the formal

doctrine the sola scriptura material doctrine justification by faith alone.

And that grabbed people.

It grabbed Europe.

But it doesn't grab people today because we we

think that we're gonna live forever.

Medical science is gonna cure whatever and so we don't even think

about and in fact our society one of the

biggest changes in our society is since World War two.

I would put probably where the big change took place since then there'll be no judgment.

You're never gonna stand before God is judged.

And so why should I need an alien righteousness why should I need holiness.

God's just a loving God that sits on the throne and he's a big grandpa in the sky and he's gonna forgive

whatever.

And we don't need to worry about holiness or anything something you emphasize in your book.

Is Romans 5 1 talking about that justification by faith.

It gives us peace right.

Last time you spoke at 12 -5 you talked about what true Shalom look like.

Looks like a cease of fire from both sides and you know if you could lose your

justification or you could walk away that war would erupt all over again and you were just developing the

thought like what kind of peace is that what kind of Shalom is that the the Jewish mindset would not have been thinking in

Shalom.

In those categories.

Right.

Oh yeah.

But.

But our entire society is currently the way the secular worldview

is designed to give you peace by distracting you from

ever thinking about eternity.

Mmm.

Yeah.

So your entire life is to be wrapped up in making yourself happy.

Yeah.

And having fulfillment and having your 401k or whatever else it might be.

And there's no judge there is nothing to worry about in the afterlife because you're simply

a cosmic accident.

You're you're a you're to use the Star Trek language.

I like to use an ugly bag of mostly water moist robots.

Whatever terminology you want to use from the secular perspective.

You didn't.

There's there's nothing about you that's going to survive death.

And so you don't have a God to have to have peace with in the first place.

It doesn't matter.

And that changes everything.

And that's why even proclaiming the gospel to a secular world

you you have to.

You basically have to make them humans that have value before

you can then warn them of judgment.

Because if they really view themselves as nothing more than happy -go -lucky.

Cosmic accidents.

Just bubbling chemicals.

What you're talking about.

Justification and righteousness and judgment all that stuff just hasn't it

doesn't connect.

Doesn't mean anything to them.

I feel a little bit of a precept coming out there some of that.

What.

That presuppositional ism.

Well well yeah I mean they're made in the image of God but the the the state

church known as the education system is given you know what 16 17 years

to numb the conscience to silence the the testimony of

our createdness.

That's why they need that amount of time and they want more and they're they're gonna try to get it too and that's

why they're gonna come after homeschoolers and everything else for long.

You just watch they they have to have that to dumb down the

image of God within us and so.

Yeah that's that's all I think very very relevant to justification and

why I think most people don't view it

as central to their understanding of their relationship to God their peace

with God.

It's just unless they're really in the word they.

Just don't recognize how important it is dr. white something that you emphasize well in your book.

A couple years ago I was getting ready to debate a Eastern Orthodox fellow and I was the

one defending salvation by faith alone.

So I had to consult dr. James White on the matter and I loved how you showed that

justification is judicial and so you know you can go back to the Greek Septuagint pardon my

mispronunciation compared to how you say it but it's judicial.

When you go back to the Septuagint and you look at court law Paul's using all those same terms

with justification.

He's talking about condemnation.

This is a a legal forensic context between the just judge of the earth that always does

right you know what I mean.

And so I'll tell you this what helps me with that is drawing a distinction not a radical

disjointed relationship but a distinction with sanctification.

And so some of the the payout in my debates especially you know with baptism with the Church of

Christ and people like that as I say look there's a few terms that you need to understand.

The difference between faith and works are distinct but related.

Justification and sanctification are distinct but related in baptism it like you've rightly pointed out

in the past is an act of faith right.

This is a demonstration of someone that has a changed heart and wants to live their life to the glory of God.

That's that's your baptism right that you're participating in a ceremonial right before the church and before the

watching world.

And so I've had a lot of I've had a lot of momentum and I think I've helped a lot of

people understand.

What we're trying to say is look justification is that one time past event and we can answer

that question who is the blessed man right.

And so your book talks a little bit about that.

Why is that such an important concept.

In Romans 4 yeah you know I was down in

Louisiana about I don't know get exactly what it

was anyways I was asked to speak on the subject of Roman Catholicism because that's

so huge down there and I did for like three nights in a row and the last night

it's funny this this fellow these two guys come up to me and the one guy introduces

the other and he says and and he's Roman Catholic and he just sort of pushes him toward me and then runs off

hi how you doing.

It's a sacrificial lamb thrown out there and we ended up having a good conversation.

And it is my practice to go

to that text and to work through Romans chapter 4 and to ask a Roman

Catholic who is the blessed man.

Because we're talking about a justification that comes from

not expecting to be paid not expecting to receive something for your works.

But instead it's an empty hand of faith.

And then Paul goes into saying God speaks the blessedness of the man to

whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

And then he gives us his example this quotation from Psalm 32 31 in the Septuagint.

And the last portion Romans 4 8 blesses the man to whom the

Lord will not impute sin.

And when you ask a Roman Catholic okay who is that.

I'm sure you've seen my debate with yeah Father Peter Stravinsky's from

long long ago.

And you know I asked him

I said who's the blessed man.

And by this point he was already pretty discombobulated.

You know he he went into that debate having never read a word I had ever said and

talking about his conversations with Jimmy Swaggart which man that did not go well for him at all.

And so he was already a little on the disheveled side.

And so his first answer as to who the blessed man was was Jesus.

And I'm like that's a problem.

Jesus is the blessed man to whom the Lord will not impute sin because he had

obviously never even thought about it.

He'd never been challenged on it.

You know here's a guy with two PhDs from Ivy League schools didn't get out

much shall we say.

And so I gave him an opportunity to sort of really rethink that one.

And the only answer you come up with was well I hope to be I hope to be the blessed man.

And the reality is anyone who reads Romans 4 every believer

is the blessed man.

That's what it means to be a Christian is.

And in Roman Catholicism there is no such thing as non imputation of sin.

If you commit a venial sin it is imputed to you.

You must bear the punishment.

You have to go through the temporal punishment for those sins etc etc.

If you don't do it in this life you do it in purgatory.

If you commit a mortal sin you lose the grace of justification.

You have to be rejustified.

And if you die in that state you'll go to hell.

And well this was this.

This of course is old -line historic Roman Catholic teaching.

Anybody could stop you today and go.

I started doubt Francis believes that.

And yeah you'd probably be right.

Who knows what Francis believes today.

But in in the olden Roman Catholic Church that that's what it was.

So there is no non imputation of sin.

It's not that your sin is ever imputed to Christ.

So his righteousness is imputed to you.

And so there is no blessed man.

And you listen to some of their apologists try answer this question.

And it's really it's pitiful.

It's sad.

Because they don't they don't have any categories to talk about into.

Yes I got a.

Quick debate story on this very point.

Because like I said read the book and so debating Church of Christ you got to think it's very

works oriented.

You got to do good works in order to be saved and stay safe.

So that's the that's the mantra.

And so when I was studying the part where you're talking about who may that God will

not count your sin now not ever you know and that's Church of Christ they see baptism washes away your

past sin.

And so they don't have this category of imputation like you're talking about.

So they can't imagine all of your sin the totality of your life God seeing that to top totality of

your life.

Because Christ is a perfect Savior.

And so I let him down the pathway.

I went to a different passage I think in Hebrews 13 about that God doesn't forsake his promises that

uses the who may.

And I just said so God's always faithful.

Right who may he's not gonna let go of his promise now not ever.

And he said yes.

And so when I said okay blessed is the man who sinned the Lord will not not now not ever

on to their account.

I said is that a fair reading of this text.

The gentleman I was debating he paused for about 10 solid seconds you could just tell the wheels totally

stopped.

Right.

Because the logics consistent.

And all this is rooted in judicial imputation forensic language.

And I just think that you just let Paul build his argument upon himself.

And it's clear who the blessed man he is.

And we can truly rejoice knowing that that verse in chapter 5 verse 1 we have peace with

God right.

We are justified by.

Faith apart from works well you're never going to get invited

to any uh conferences uh to speak with nt right.

Um about this subject I'm torn up about that.

But other other than that.

Uh yes uh you know there are are beautiful promises in the text of scripture

and people's traditions keep them from being able to see these things.

And that happened uh with Peter Stravinskis and you can go and watch that

entire debate.

The cross -examination of that debate on first corinthians 3 on purgatory was

absolutely classic.

I mean definitely just for funsies.

I'm sorry.

Do you ever go back to watch it just for fun.

Um you know no but uh I always I'm frequently having to track it down and link

it for people.

And so I'll I'll play portions of it then.

And you know I just I just remember he was wearing his clerical collar

and about halfway through that debate he's just pulling at this thing all the time he wanted out of there so

bad.

Um and and by the way I mean it was really obvious how that debate went but I

had a friend out in the audience and afterwards he was standing behind some Roman Catholics that were talking

and he heard one saying the other he said you know when father Stravinskis was speaking you could

just feel the spirit moving and the truth flowing from him.

But then when white would get up to speak you could see the demons right behind his head.

It's sort of like well you know not everybody was hearing the same thing.

Uh and uh that's that's sort of sort of how things go.

But um.

I have another thought I want to get your thoughts on too because you know people that deny once saved always

saved.

I'm like look when we're talking about which is not my favorite phrase mine.

I don't like it either because I'm saying justification is talking about the just judge of the universe

banging the gavel declaring someone righteous no longer condemned that judge is not a liar

he's not going to go back on his word.

And so this is where when people start talking about the once saved always saved kind of have this synergistic understanding.

I try to dial it back right.

I try to lay that foundation of who God is and he's the righteous judge.

And if you're looking to Jesus in faith something that's internal and of the heart

faith can't be put in a jar and measured and looked at.

God sees the heart.

And so if you look to Jesus then you're justified just as if you're you've never sinned.

And then you live the rest of your life in sanctifying works to give God glory.

And so that's kind of how I approach that conversation is saying look we need to go back to justification and

sanctification.

So do you have.

Any follow -up thoughts on that.

Well well you know the illustration that whether it was

actually from Luther or not is still relevant and people need to

know it because the Roman Catholics will bring it up.

They'll read it in this rock magazine or whatever.

And that is the the pile of dung.

And you know Luther wanted to it was very earthy in his

illustrations.

Anyone who's read his table talks know that chapter in your book.

I'm sorry chapter eight.

Yes book.

Right.

And you know since since I wrote the book I've been in Germany many many times.

I won't get a chance to do that again because I'm not traveling overseas anymore.

But I had the opportunity of preaching in Luther's pulpit and

visiting all around Wittenberg and sitting where the table talk discussions took place.

And I can think I remember all those things in my mind anyway.

The illustration of course that he uses is that we are like a pile of dung which everybody in Germany

knew all about.

I mean they didn't they.

You couldn't go down to some store and buy fertilizer.

You used your farm animal waste uh to uh to fertilize your field.

So you weren't going to have crops the next year.

And so you had to pile all that stuff up.

And obviously by the end of the end of the summer into the fall

those things stunk and they had flies and they were repulsive and and everything else.

But that's how you had to do things.

And what he said was uh that that's offensive and you want to stay away from it.

But that's what we are.

And the righteousness of Christ is like the first snowfall of the fall that

comes and covers that over and takes away all of its offense.

But it doesn't change the dung pile.

The dung pile is still a pile of dung.

You run and jump into it you're going to find out it's still a pile of dung.

And so he was talking about the alien righteousness that takes away our offensiveness.

And he was trying to distinguish between justification and

sanctification.

Justification is why we can have peace with God because of that alien

righteousness that covers that offense.

Sanctification is the process whereby we ourselves are made like Christ.

But what makes us acceptable for God is not where we are in that sanctification.

It is the righteousness of Christ.

And of course Roman Catholic apologists just jump all over that it's a legal fiction.

It doesn't have any meaning.

It's a mockery.

And so what I did is I.

I said okay let's take your position.

Let's take the Roman Catholic position.

Uh when you're baptized as an infant you're a pile of dung because you've fallen an

atom so you've got original sin.

When you're baptized you are transformed by baptism into a pile of gold.

And the reason that you go to heaven is not because the righteousness of Christ

it's because of your own intrinsic goodness having been changed by

the infusion of grace into your soul.

So you're made a pile of gold.

Evidently God likes gold and so you get heaven because you're gold.

But the problem is that you can commit sin.

And if you commit a mortal sin which destroys the grace of justification

boom right back to a pile of dung.

So the pile of gold instantly becomes a pile of dung.

A scary thing in Roman Catholicism.

I'll have this in front of me.

But um I believe it was Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Faith uh Fundamentals of

Catholic Dogma.

Sorry.

Um said the reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in just this that no one can

know for certainty whether they have fulfilled all the conditions which are

necessary for achieving justification.

You never know which you are whether you're a pile of gold or pile of dung.

And if you assume you're a pile of gold that might be the sin of presumption.

And even if you don't feel like you've committed a mortal sin.

If you commit a venial sin which does not destroy the grace of justification but brings temporal punishments

flecks of manure start appearing on the surface of the gold.

And you either clean those off by your penances in life

or it's going to need to be cleaned off before it goes in the presence of God which is what purgatory and indulgences are all

about.

And so that that's the major differences between these two perspectives.

And it illustrates the fact that what we're saying is the reason that anyone has peace with God and that

anyone goes in the presence of God is because they have a perfect righteousness and that's the

righteous Christ.

Um and that's not the Roman Catholic perspective at all.

And so once you recognize that then you can understand Ephesians 2 we're saved by

grace through faith alone.

And we are saved unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

And so a healthy proper biblical balanced

understanding of the relationship of faith and works is

readily available to us in scripture if we will but accept it.

But the problem is it destroys man's ego man's pride.

Because what you're saying is I am completely dependent upon God for my salvation I'm completely dependent upon the righteousness of

Christ I can't add to that righteousness I can only seek to glorify God and and live

out of love for what he's done for me.

And that leaves me with absolutely no ground for boasting at all.

And it also leaves no ground for a sacramental system some system

whereby um man you know is dependent upon God's grace got to have

God's grace.

But man develops these ways of controlling

that grace through sacraments and works and things like that there's no room for that either.

And uh so that's why it is one of the central central central issues.

And yet the vast majority of those who are the children of the

reformation today have no idea about any of that.

Yeah.

And hence yeah scripture is clear that if it's on the basis of.

Works it's no longer of grace right.

Those are in antinomies.

They are mutually exclusive.

And that's why you pointed this out in your book.

I think it's Romans 4 15.

Ish.

But that's why it it rests on faith so it can actually be accomplished by God's

grace.

We don't have anything to look to in ourselves.

And so as we kind of begin to wind down a little bit.

Uh your book does a really good job of talking about the the relationship between Romans 4

and James.

Chapter 2.

Dr. White faith without works is dead.

How do we miss this fact.

And James even quotes uh the phrase justification.

Right.

So the way that I present this to people is saying look James and Paul are back -to -back guarding the

gospel of grace.

They're just fighting different fronts and so there's different context.

Justification is being used in a different way of saying demonstrate show your

faith.

Don't just say it prove it right with your work.

So um what's something that can really help people understand that harmony between Romans 4.

James 2 centered around the person of Abraham.

Well um that I think.

32 page chapter uh that I worked long and hard on uh is I

think one of the more important contributions that I've made uh to this particular subject and

obviously there are so many groups that we deal with that immediately run to James chapter 2.

The initial group that I was dealing with that did that of course was Mormons but then

eventually Roman Catholicism things like that and uh Church of Christ and and all those all

those various groups.

But I think personally uh when you look at James 2 14 I think that's where you have to start

is what use is it my brothers if someone says

he has faith it's so so it's the the term lego standard word for speaking but

the emphasis is on if someone literally uh if

faith someone says to have uh and that's

that's the key.

That's the key issue is this is a spoken faith uh this is a a

faith that is claimed in language.

Someone says they have faith but they do not have works.

Is that faith able to save them.

Now you can get into a bunch of debates with uh anti -lordship guys and

stuff like that that no it shouldn't be that faith and stuff like that but it's very clearly uh

it it's hey hystus the faith that James

is talking about is a spoken faith that has no evidence of its

reality.

And the question that he is asking is can a faith that exists only in the air

and not in reality save someone.

And his answer is no.

And Paul's answer would have been no as well as he's as we see in Ephesians and

in Romans Romans 6 you know shall we continue in sin.

That grace might increase.

May never be.

There's there's complete harmony between the two of them on this issue even though of course you'll find

all sorts of especially continental theologians that oh this was the great great argument

between Paul and James and all the rest that kind of stuff uh there's just no reason to to believe that

um James is talking to Christians about not having an empty

um God dishonoring claim of being a follower of Jesus and yet you live your life

as you as you please.

And Paul had a robust doctrine that said that a person who is born

again a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God this will be a person who is concerned about

holiness and about good works not to gain their position with God not

to make them right before God.

But because that is the natural outflow of the sovereign work of God and drawing his

elect people into himself.

So um it is interesting because the the various groups that

you'll deal with you know the the Mormons I've I can tell you how many times I've had a Mormon

quote something like James 220 and say well as Paul said so in other words they have no clue where this even

is or what the context is or anything else.

And so it can be challenging um because what is what

people are trying to prove with the use of James will be a little bit different depending on which

group you're you're running into.

So you sort of have to you have to make sure it's one thing to write some of these notes down the back of your Bible but

you always have to remember you're dealing with an individual who's going to have maybe some unique beliefs and

you can't just run with you.

Know the groups of people I deal with saying you got to do something you got to get baptized you got to get your past sins washed

away in the watery graves of baptism.

So I have to go to James 2 Acts uh I have to go to James 2 Acts 2 Acts 22

Mark 16 16 I tell them I'm like hey let's talk more about Mark 16

but yeah it's trying to explain people.

Look there's a call to repentance and there's a call to demonstrate that repentance.

And when you start rationalize it you can just tell just the traditions start to you know perk up and

um Dr. White I've had a lot of uh private conversations with people within the the Church of Christ that have reached

out legalism eats eats itself you know what I mean.

And um when we me and my friend Trey Fisher the fishbone we were at ReformCon um got to see

you um and the the the seal guys um we started a Facebook group called

the Church of Christ Exiles and so that is growing and we just wanted to create a community of people that have

been exiled stiff -armed um because when they and you know what the key issue is they

start really wrestling with justification realizing that it's forensic it's a one -time past

event realizing more who the character of God is is a holy righteous judge but

Christ is the ticket and it's by faith and not by our works.

So you've contributed so much in that.

And once again I just want to recommend people if you haven't already go check out the book The God Who

Justifies and so Dr. White is there any kind of final words that you want to

encourage our audience.

With well I just would encourage folks as I do pick it up just be aware that like I said the first eight

chapters flow along real easily and then you get into chapter nine I what I'm recalling and that's

when we start digging into uh the text digging into the Greek.

Um it's necessary especially if you're going to be dealing with Rome and stuff like that to get that level.

So um you can sort of read the first eight chapters as an encouragement and then

use the last half as a resource when you're going to be dealing with certain subjects I suppose.

Uh or just press through the whole thing stop watching stop watching silly tv programs and press through

whole thing.

But uh it is sort of two books in that.

In in that sense.

So um I'd encourage folks.

To read all of it.

Actually yes sir.

Well hey we're gonna have to get you back to 12 -5 church in Jonesboro Arkansas.

Um Dr. White God's really blessed us down here and we're looking for a new building.

You loved our building with the one bathroom so much but we're gonna be having um a lot better facility

um in the next coming months and so uh you will enjoy coming back to speak.

And um we're making a lot of connections.

You have to make sure it has a place to park an rv.

We got it.

It's gonna be a huge parking lot.

We got you Dr. White.

Well but you have to have.

Electricity you got to have water a sewer drops.

Nice you know.

There's there's some there's there's a few a few few things more than just a parking space.

Hey you got a really nice truck too.

Was.

There was there a digital graphic says that uh Jesus is Lord or something I'm trying to remember.

What it said.

Um I'm trying to remember the last time I was there whether I had mine which which because I've

got a new truck but uh in both of the trucks that I've had I have an led sign the back

yeah that says it's Christ or chaos and personally I'm tired of the chaos and on the

back of this unit that I'm in right now I've got an even bigger one that scrolls

1731 all the time uh especially at night in the rv park so people are always walking their

dogs and stuff like that and it it catches people's attention big time.

Absolutely.

Well hey when you're.

Coming through conway or something.

Um hit up.

Pastor Nathan Hargrave or myself.

We'd love to host you again.

Um it's been great the the two times that you've come down to talk on.

I believe it's the trinity.

Um you're.

You spoke on the doctrines of grace.

And this last time justification by faith alone.

All right.

Thank you sir.

Absolutely.

Take care out there driving and and swerving and dodging cars and all the rest.

I will.

God bless.

God bless.

Bye -bye.

Well I just want to thank you all for joining us on another episode of the apologetic

dog.

If you haven't please like please subscribe.

That helps circulate our content.

Um throughout youtube.

And um standing on the gospel of grace.

I hope this episode has been encouraging to you.

Um the god who justifies.

This is a fantastic book.

And this really emphasizes that salvation truly is by faith not a dead faith not just something that you speak

into the air.

And other people are like all right.

What now.

No it's a living faith.

It's it's a faith of a dead heart a heart of stone that has been quickened made alive by the

spirit and now demonstrates a life to the glory of god.

And so it sounds like dr white has a whole lot coming up.

Um on his schedule he's going to be debating late.

And flowers on john six.

I can't wait for them.

Um the apologetic dog.

We have a few things on our docket coming up as well.

So you don't want to miss it.

Um so please tune in the next time that we go live.

Thank you all for joining us.

God bless.