The God Who Justifies | w/ Dr. James White

The Apologetic Dog Introduction and Ministry Announcements

Well hello and welcome everybody to the Apologetic Dog. I just want to thank you so much for all your support and joining us for contending for the faith. The Apologetic Dog is obviously an apologetics ministry that I want us to be grounded in God's Word.

So if you look at our Reform Dogs logo then you see 1st Timothy 620. This verse kind of grounds the ministry and the kind of vision that I see in the direction that I want to go. That verse says, O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you.

Avoid irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge. And so the Apologetic Dog represents Christians. We contend for the gospel of grace. And so if you don't, if you haven't already, please subscribe to this channel.

I have a website these days so if you want to check me out there and just show some support. Real quick I actually want to bring up a few announcements in the upcoming future. I have a debate. I forget what number of debate this is but I will be debating against a gentleman and he will be defending the doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

So that'll be on Marlon's channel at The Gospel Truth so you don't want to miss that. That's coming up here in August. So next on the list is I will be speaking at a conference in Indiana on why eschatology matters.

I cannot believe that I somehow got roped into this. I was so comfortable with my pre-millennial dispensationalism and I realized I can't hang out there. I can't hang out there and do justice warring against heresy that's creeping into the church like full preterism.

And so I've been given the task to preach on the resurrection of the dead. So this will be in Tampika, Indiana and this will be in September. So mark this down on your calendars. I cannot wait for that.

And my last announcement is I have another debate coming up in Texas maybe. So this is a little bit ways off towards the end of October but me and Mr. Michael Hysall we're gonna be talking about justification and how that relates to baptism.

So mark that on your calendars if you are interested and would like to keep up with the apologetic dog. But today is a very important and special episode. I have a guest that needs no introduction. Dr. White is in the building.

How are you doing today sir? Oh not too bad. Hanging out in my RV. Hanging out in the RV. So where are you traveling at right now?

I've been in Colorado for over three weeks now. I head home over the weekend but I was supposed to be doing a big swing through the Midwest but had some food poisoning that changed those plans and so I've just been chilling here in Colorado.

Spoken to a number of churches here and and stuff like that. Dodging an amazing amount of rain. We just had hail and yeah it's weather's been very very interesting. But here we are in our in our mobile studio.

I think I'm the only person that has a two-camera 4k mobile studio that I can that I can have running down the road with me. So I don't do it while I'm actually moving obviously.

That would be sort of stupid but yeah. So I bet you I bet you're ready to get back and I'm looking forward to you come back to 12 .5 church. I can't wait to see what.

You're gonna teach on next. Yeah I I'm definitely racking up the miles next big trip. Next big trip is back to I'll be in Pennsylvania with a debate. I think the fellow's name is Gregory Coles on whether gay Christian is an appropriate category to be used in the church.

And then I head straight down to G3 for the big conference and come back through Louisiana. So yeah September is gonna be a 5 ,000 mile drive and we're now looking at. You seem so thrilled. Well I do enjoy it but it is it is a lot of work.

There's no choice about it and you're you're dodging dodging semi tractor trailers and everything else. So it's it has its own pleasures and.

Dangers as well. That's right and in February this is something where you and I will cross paths again. I believe you're gonna have a debate at this conference with Jeffrey Rice in Tennessee. So that's a little bit a ways.

Away but I bet you didn't know. I'm not debating Jeff. I just want everybody to know. Oh well I would pay to see that. You said you're gonna having a debate with Jeffrey Rice. I want everybody to know I'm not gonna not gonna be debating Jeffrey Rice because he's my he's my source man.

I mean he just he just took me up with with the text I'm gonna preach from it at G3. It's a Hebrew Bible and it's all Hebrew and you can see it's let me see if I can find it. You know it's got the nice gold gilded pages until you open it and then it's purple.

So it's a large print large print. You can't find too many large print Hebrew texts around so.

Now you go. You rightly said you're not debating Jeffrey Rice but can you tell us anything about what you will be debating on at this conference? Yeah I.

Can. I'm debating the same fellow I debated back in February there. He is a landmark Baptist and he's a he's a sharp fellow but I'll be honest I'm not sure how it's gonna work out because if anybody watched that debate you're too you're too young to remember this but back in the 1980s we had a television commercial for FedEx and it was all about how FedEx was really fast and get delivering your your packages and so they hired this guy who is a speed talker and so he would just sit there and he would rip through stuff he's he's got multiple phones and and this was the the FedEx thing.

Well that's the guy I'm debating. Same thing at the debate if you did you see the debate in that we did in February? Absolutely. Okay so two he had 235 slides for a single debate and you may have noticed they all had so much text on them no one even in the room could read them before he was done and he wasn't debating for anybody in that room.

He could it could have been an empty room he did not care he was debating for something he was debating for Landmark Baptist yeah and so I'm supposed to be getting back to him and talking about this. I'm going to try to encourage him to actually do a debate for the people that are in the room but I'll be honest with you I don't have a high level of confidence that that's what's gonna end up happening be perfectly honest with you so that one's got me a little and the thing is that's February and we are we are scheduling at least four major debates in Houston in February as well probably on the way out to Tullahoma and on the way back Trent Horn of Catholic Answers Dale Tuggy the Unitarian and Layton Flowers on John 6 so yeah it's gonna be a really really really really busy period of time.

I've never done that many debates at one time so it's gonna be a challenge. No no no we're talking we're talking five possibly six debates and that's just that's just in a ridiculous amount of material to be writing on and presenting on because they're very different topics and so yeah it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting I see you're trying to catch up with my debate tally however so February will put me pretty close to 190 so got a little something to keep for but you're much younger than I am so you know I'm I'm so old they're about to put me out to pasture anyway so hey we have just slightly different colored beards.

Yes yes mine is definitely shows the wear and tear of 40 years in ministry so because I'm only 42 so well.

Hey dr. why I bet you didn't know I was speaking at this same conference with you but I have been invited to do the pre-conference and I'm talking about your favorite subject of the dangers of full preterism.

So I. I didn't. I cannot believe that this task has been given to me because here in Jonesboro Arkansas land for whatever reason this has creeped up inside the church. We have you know self-proclaimed pastors preaching this from the pulpit and people are like scratching their heads saying Jeremiah what is that.

I'm like I don't know but I'll go figure it out. So I got to connect with Jeffrey Rice and so I'll be honored to be a part of the whole conference. With y 'all I'll be at your.

Debate root me on. Hopefully and it will be at a much nicer location. Yeah we'll be able to have a lot more people there. We were a little bit crammed in in February but it's nice that hopefully it'll be a good turnout and so I have to somehow arrange that teaching in Conway and arrange the schedules of three different guys to come into Houston all to make that work.

I don't know how it's gonna happen but that's what we're working on now. Well it'll be good.

Hopefully we won't see death by a thousand slides again but I'm looking for it. But dr. white you're on today because I reached out to you and I thought hey let's talk about a book you wrote a while back that's been very helpful for me contending for the faith.

You wrote this book the God who justifies. So my first question is kind of what prompted you to write this book.

Why Dr. White Wrote The God Who Justifies

In the first place it's interesting that that book took me the longest to write of any of the books that I've written most of the I've not written a book in a while and part of it is just I think age and just trying to keep up with travel and stuff like that.

And it's just harder as you get older I think but I had already covered you know I've written about the Trinity and solo scriptura and Bible translation and Roman Catholicism and Mormonism. And obviously I started it right when the federal vision movement stuff erupted and it's not an it's not a response to an NT right or new perspectivism.

I I sort of mentioned in passing that the problem is if you try to respond to all the stuff that's out there it'll end up. I mean it's a fairly lengthy book as it is it'll end up being just huge and nobody will read it.

And so I felt there was a need because there was so much I don't know people scholars like to write books that will keep them employed and advance their their track toward tenure at seminaries. Okay that unfortunately is just a reality and just as with my book on the Trinity I am seeking to benefit pastors benefit the church benefit the people sitting in the pews and I'm seeking to do that by being what used to be a badge of honor and now is a badge of shame in certain elements of the Reformed movement and that is being a Biblicist being focused upon you know I'm a biblical Trinitarian I believe in the Trinity because of certain doctrines that are revealed in Scripture and that's the you know that's following the Apostles that's believing what the Apostles taught.

And as far as the gospel and justification is concerned there are a few topics that are are more fully addressed in the New Testament than the subject of justification. I mean between Romans and Galatians you have a lot of specific argumentation on all the aspects that surround the doctrine of justification and yet that was not in church history the focus of the early centuries.

I I teach church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary there in Conway and we did early church history recently and you know one of the things that is somewhat of a mystery is the early church is very focused upon Christological issues you know the Council of Nicaea, Chalcedon, things like that but when it came to for example the first full-length treatise on the atonement to appear is from Athanasius in the fourth century and of course a lot of Christians today would struggle to define theories of the atonement or even where they themselves land in regards to historical discussions these things but the point is that the primary interesting concern of the church in history has been focused on other areas and it really isn't until Augustine that you start touching on a these areas with Pelagius, the Donatists, things like that but still that's right Augustine is right at the end of the Roman Empire as Europe is sliding into what we call the Dark Ages and it's not the theological thought stopped during that period of time but you have to remember in Europe for hundreds of years the average person never moved more than seven miles any one direction from where they were born and so the need for theological communication, the ability to hear from others and to be able to bounce ideas off and things like that pretty much came to a halt in the West when the Roman Empire collapsed in the West and became much more minimized in the East and they had a few more hundred years before the rise of Islam so there's some interesting church history aspects to keep in mind and so when you talk about justification it is something that has clearly been discussed a great deal in the West since the Reformation but in the East it's still especially in Eastern Orthodoxy is a frozen subject I guess would be the way I put it what I mean by that is Eastern Orthodoxy which is making a lot of headway these days.

There's a you know there's there's people in in the West that are being attracted to it. They don't like Francis they don't really like Rome all that much because of what they've already experienced with that and so Eastern Orthodoxy provides a liturgical mysterious alternative.

The problem is Eastern Orthodoxy today is basically the traditions of the seventh and eighth centuries fossilized. It's like it's it's there's a set in stone and that's what defines Eastern Orthodoxy now.

I'm not getting into Eastern Orthodoxy right now but they just that's not an area that they have a lot of focus on and many times they just look at Protestants and Roman Catholics and go well that's something you all argue about.

We've got all this figured out a long time ago they're kind of but there's really no emphasis though upon a biblical doctrine of sin a biblical doctrine of the deadness of man and sin these are these are things that aren't there so all of that to say that I felt that there was a a real for a biblically based a biblicist examination of the doctrine justification because once again I come out of a background of debating these things with Roman Catholicism and I've just simply seen that for people to truly whether it's the Trinity justification the doctrines of grace that the highest view of Scripture these are all divine truths the the sheep of Christ they want to hear his voice on these matters and so I didn't want to sit there and do some type of historical survey or you know there's there's plenty of value to those things but from my perspective the sheep of Christ become convinced of a truth when it is brought to bear upon their heart from Scripture by by the Spirit of God.

That's Scripture Scripture and the Spirit. There was a guy named John Calvin who recognized how important all that stuff is is off his his offspring in our day are trying to get rid of him in every way possible sadly.

But he recognized word and spirit. Word and spirit. That's that's what it's all about. Not great traditions not something it's word and spirit and that remains the same today and so the book itself I recognize that a lot of people enjoy the first eight chapters and then go I may use it as a resource in the future starting with chapter nine.

Oh yeah I had.

Those thoughts but in your book you talk about you know how this was contended for in church history is a problem right. Especially with the East and West along with those types of controversies. So I'm going to the chat.

Asked a good question and we don't have to spend a whole lot of time on this. But what's something over the next 50 years or so you seeing the next big challenge.

Technology, Transhumanism, and the Church’s Future Challenges

Well we have we have repetitive cycles of the same things. Unfortunately nothing. We go back things you know and you'll see this in the church over and over again. Obviously unless there is a major event in world history nuclear war famine an actual something other than a planned epidemic you know a disease that actually like kills 70 of the people it infects instead of 0 .007.

Or that we could that that changes everything. And how we respond to that changes everything where it's focused changes everything. So I mean it's very easy to see some very negative directions right now all you have to do is listen to you will know a Harari a name that most people do not know but have seen clips of him.

He's sort of the scientific mind behind the World Economic Forum and you you read his stuff. And the movement toward transhumanism toward a a utterly technologically based totalitarianism. And we've got math.

I mean that's just gonna be massive challenges that the church has never faced before. You know we can look back and learn a lot from history but but the interface of technology and the utilization of technology by secular humanism which hates human life we have we have lots of books that have been written over the past 50 years telling us what the dangers were.

It's amazing to me. I look I read 1984 and I see it happening around me. I read Fahrenheit 451. I see I see brave new world. And then I another book I've suggested to people it's not a Christian book so be aware of that.

But this perfect day was written in 1975. I believe I read 11 I think was the name and I read it during the lockdowns. I'm sitting here going how how did these people see this coming. I I mean there's so much of it was completely in line.

And if if that's where we're headed for we can't look back at our experience under the Soviet Union for example and really come up with really helpful stuff because they didn't have the tech we could hide in the woods and have church services with drones and satellites you can't hide anywhere and so yeah there's some serious challenges and the impact let me tie this together with our topic.

One of the challenges that I'm seeing right now already is as we are pushed into a smaller and smaller cultural space. When I say we I mean everyone who claims to be a Christian and as in each group whether it's amongst Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or Protestants and our cult groups like Mormonism is like that you start seeing a division you start seeing people.

It's amazing to me. Did you know that the City Council of Salt Lake City is 100 LGBTQ know that whoa most people have no idea. Yep the the collapse of Mormonism on morals and ethics and especially in regards to marriage homosexuality transgenderism.

It's astonishing and we're obviously you know we're used to seeing quote-unquote progressives are we used to call them liberals. We're used to seeing those folks you know just going with the culture and going with whatever the culture wants to do.

You know all the the the Lutheran priestess woman with the with the rainbow stole doing the Sparkle Creed a few weeks ago. I'm not sure if you saw that maybe it wasn't allowed in your state but but it's it's just the the level of apostasy is astonishing and so we've all have those divisions but it's happening everywhere.

Rome has its father Martin promoting homosexuality and LGBTQ stuff amongst Roman Catholicism and Francis thinks he's a great guy and so we're seeing those divisions. But as the conservatives conservative Catholics conservative Protestants conservative Eastern Orthodox we're getting squished into a smaller and smaller space to be able to speak and that means we're getting pushed closer and closer together and here's going to be the big issue if you and your Roman Catholic neighbor both recognize that what's going on in the world right now is utter insanity.

It's going to result in in massive loss of life degradation of humanity. How important is justification in all this. Because the the temptation is well you know there's so few of us now we all those of us who still have some kind of a commitment here we all need to sort of stick together and yeah we've divided over this stuff in the past but maybe it's time to stop doing that and stop dividing and change what we think is definitional of the Christian faith that is that is a major major pressure it's happening all over the place.

I think for example I've been given information that probably next month while you and I are busy dealing with debates in our realm that probably next month there's gonna be well there's going to be a conference held at Andy Stanley's church and by look by looking at the people that are speaking it seems pretty clear to me that they're going to adopt an affirming stance an ally stance the LGBTQ movement and that's a that's a big bunch of evangelicals and so what what's what's the result of that.

What what what kind of impact does that have. And so doctrines like justification they I think it was Murray who said that the doctrine justification no longer rings the bells of men's hearts. The reason for that is and I may have mentioned that in the book.

I mean I wrote the book 19 years ago so well actually came out in 04 so yeah about 19 so I wrote it more than 20 years ago like I said I worked on it for a number of years but but one of the things that that I remember is the reason it doesn't ring the bells of men's heart is because in Luther's Day every person had seen death.

They had seen dead bodies in the street the the plague would come in and out of of towns and to go to go study at university you are risking your life because it was a lot safer to be out in the countryside than to go into a city.

And so death the the infant mortality rate every one of the Reformers lost at least one child some more than one and this impacted people in a massive way. You lived surrounded by the reality that you may be standing before God in judgment in a very short period of time in some forms of the plague there is there was one form of the plague that people actually believed.

You got it by someone who had it looking at you. And the reason was it was a pneumatic form of the passive lungs and you basically had only 24 hours once you got it you're you're gone in one day. So that was that was people's reality.

And so talking to them about justification righteousness being right with God having a right standing what peace with God is. Man everybody wanted to know about that because that's the reality. What. Where do we live now.

Most kids are never taken to a funeral. Most funerals are closed casket. Only a few decades only a few generations ago my my grandparents would live with their they lived with their parents and their grandparents and their great-grandparents and they all saw those people die in the same house and so they recognized the continuing reality of death.

Now I was oh goodness I was in my late 30s I think before I saw a dead body or saw someone actually die and we hide our children from it. We don't talk about it. The church stinks of dealing with it to be perfectly honest with you.

And so you were a chaplain. Weren't you for a time. Yeah that that's that's where I saw that's where I broke all those those streaks was was being in the presence of death. And that's why justification for many people is just a it's just a doctrine.

That's out there someplace right. It's not something they see is actually relevant to them right now before they get in that car and drive down the road. That's why you know justification by faith alone was the material doctrine of the Reformation the formal doctrine the sola scriptura material doctrine justification by faith alone.

And that grabbed people. It grabbed Europe. But it doesn't grab people today because we we think that we're gonna live forever. Medical science is gonna cure whatever and so we don't even think about and in fact our society one of the biggest changes in our society is since World War two.

I would put probably where the big change took place since then there'll be no judgment. You're never gonna stand before God is judged. And so why should I need an alien righteousness why should I need holiness.

God's just a loving God that sits on the throne and he's a big grandpa in the sky and he's gonna forgive whatever. And we don't need to worry about holiness or anything something you emphasize in your book.

Is Romans 5 1 talking about that justification by faith. It gives us peace right. Last time you spoke at 12 -5 you talked about what true Shalom look like. Looks like a cease of fire from both sides and you know if you could lose your justification or you could walk away that war would erupt all over again and you were just developing the thought like what kind of peace is that what kind of Shalom is that the the Jewish mindset would not have been thinking in Shalom.

In those categories. Right. Oh yeah. But. But our entire society is currently the way the secular worldview is designed to give you peace by distracting you from ever thinking about eternity. Mmm. Yeah.

So your entire life is to be wrapped up in making yourself happy. Yeah. And having fulfillment and having your 401k or whatever else it might be. And there's no judge there is nothing to worry about in the afterlife because you're simply a cosmic accident.

You're you're a you're to use the Star Trek language. I like to use an ugly bag of mostly water moist robots. Whatever terminology you want to use from the secular perspective. You didn't. There's there's nothing about you that's going to survive death.

And so you don't have a God to have to have peace with in the first place. It doesn't matter. And that changes everything. And that's why even proclaiming the gospel to a secular world you you have to.

You basically have to make them humans that have value before you can then warn them of judgment. Because if they really view themselves as nothing more than happy-go-lucky. Cosmic accidents. Just bubbling chemicals.

What you're talking about. Justification and righteousness and judgment all that stuff just hasn't it doesn't connect.

Doesn't mean anything to them. I feel a little bit of a precept coming out there some of that. What.

That presuppositional ism. Well well yeah I mean they're made in the image of God but the the the state church known as the education system is given you know what 16 17 years to numb the conscience to silence the the testimony of our createdness.

That's why they need that amount of time and they want more and they're they're gonna try to get it too and that's why they're gonna come after homeschoolers and everything else for long. You just watch they they have to have that to dumb down the image of God within us and so.

Yeah that's that's all I think very very relevant to justification and why I think most people don't view it as central to their understanding of their relationship to God their peace with God. It's just unless they're really in the word they.

Just don't recognize how important it is dr. white something that you emphasize well in your book. A couple years ago I was getting ready to debate a Eastern Orthodox fellow and I was the one defending salvation by faith alone.

So I had to consult dr. James White on the matter and I loved how you showed that justification is judicial and so you know you can go back to the Greek Septuagint pardon my mispronunciation compared to how you say it but it's judicial.

When you go back to the Septuagint and you look at court law Paul's using all those same terms with justification. He's talking about condemnation. This is a a legal forensic context between the just judge of the earth that always does right you know what I mean.

And so I'll tell you this what helps me with that is drawing a distinction not a radical disjointed relationship but a distinction with sanctification. And so some of the the payout in my debates especially you know with baptism with the Church of Christ and people like that as I say look there's a few terms that you need to understand.

The difference between faith and works are distinct but related. Justification and sanctification are distinct but related in baptism it like you've rightly pointed out in the past is an act of faith right.

This is a demonstration of someone that has a changed heart and wants to live their life to the glory of God. That's that's your baptism right that you're participating in a ceremonial right before the church and before the watching world.

And so I've had a lot of I've had a lot of momentum and I think I've helped a lot of people understand. What we're trying to say is look justification is that one time past event and we can answer that question who is the blessed man right.

And so your book talks a little bit about that. Why is that such an important concept.

Romans 4, the Blessed Man, and Non-Imputation of Sin

In Romans 4 yeah you know I was down in Louisiana about I don't know get exactly what it was anyways I was asked to speak on the subject of Roman Catholicism because that's so huge down there and I did for like three nights in a row and the last night it's funny this this fellow these two guys come up to me and the one guy introduces the other and he says and and he's Roman Catholic and he just sort of pushes him toward me and then runs off hi how you doing.

It's a sacrificial lamb thrown out there and we ended up having a good conversation. And it is my practice to go to that text and to work through Romans chapter 4 and to ask a Roman Catholic who is the blessed man.

Because we're talking about a justification that comes from not expecting to be paid not expecting to receive something for your works. But instead it's an empty hand of faith. And then Paul goes into saying God speaks the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

And then he gives us his example this quotation from Psalm 32 31 in the Septuagint. And the last portion Romans 4 8 blesses the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. And when you ask a Roman Catholic okay who is that.

I'm sure you've seen my debate with yeah Father Peter Stravinsky's from long long ago. And you know I asked him I said who's the blessed man. And by this point he was already pretty discombobulated. You know he he went into that debate having never read a word I had ever said and talking about his conversations with Jimmy Swaggart which man that did not go well for him at all.

And so he was already a little on the disheveled side. And so his first answer as to who the blessed man was was Jesus. And I'm like that's a problem. Jesus is the blessed man to whom the Lord will not impute sin because he had obviously never even thought about it.

He'd never been challenged on it. You know here's a guy with two PhDs from Ivy League schools didn't get out much shall we say. And so I gave him an opportunity to sort of really rethink that one. And the only answer you come up with was well I hope to be I hope to be the blessed man.

And the reality is anyone who reads Romans 4 every believer is the blessed man. That's what it means to be a Christian is. And in Roman Catholicism there is no such thing as non imputation of sin. If you commit a venial sin it is imputed to you.

You must bear the punishment. You have to go through the temporal punishment for those sins etc etc. If you don't do it in this life you do it in purgatory. If you commit a mortal sin you lose the grace of justification.

You have to be rejustified. And if you die in that state you'll go to hell. And well this was this. This of course is old-line historic Roman Catholic teaching. Anybody could stop you today and go. I started doubt Francis believes that.

And yeah you'd probably be right. Who knows what Francis believes today. But in in the olden Roman Catholic Church that that's what it was. So there is no non imputation of sin. It's not that your sin is ever imputed to Christ.

So his righteousness is imputed to you. And so there is no blessed man. And you listen to some of their apologists try answer this question. And it's really it's pitiful. It's sad. Because they don't they don't have any categories to talk about into.

Yes I got a.

Quick debate story on this very point. Because like I said read the book and so debating Church of Christ you got to think it's very works oriented. You got to do good works in order to be saved and stay safe.

So that's the that's the mantra. And so when I was studying the part where you're talking about who may that God will not count your sin now not ever you know and that's Church of Christ they see baptism washes away your past sin.

And so they don't have this category of imputation like you're talking about. So they can't imagine all of your sin the totality of your life God seeing that to top totality of your life. Because Christ is a perfect Savior.

And so I let him down the pathway. I went to a different passage I think in Hebrews 13 about that God doesn't forsake his promises that uses the who may. And I just said so God's always faithful. Right who may he's not gonna let go of his promise now not ever.

And he said yes. And so when I said okay blessed is the man who sinned the Lord will not not now not ever on to their account. I said is that a fair reading of this text. The gentleman I was debating he paused for about 10 solid seconds you could just tell the wheels totally stopped.

Right. Because the logics consistent. And all this is rooted in judicial imputation forensic language. And I just think that you just let Paul build his argument upon himself. And it's clear who the blessed man he is.

And we can truly rejoice knowing that that verse in chapter 5 verse 1 we have peace with God right. We are justified by.

Faith apart from works well you're never going to get invited to any uh conferences uh to speak with nt right. Um about this subject I'm torn up about that. But other other than that. Uh yes uh you know there are are beautiful promises in the text of scripture and people's traditions keep them from being able to see these things.

And that happened uh with Peter Stravinskis and you can go and watch that entire debate. The cross-examination of that debate on first corinthians 3 on purgatory was absolutely classic. I mean definitely just for funsies.

I'm sorry. Do you ever go back to watch it just for fun. Um you know no but uh I always I'm frequently having to track it down and link it for people. And so I'll I'll play portions of it then. And you know I just I just remember he was wearing his clerical collar and about halfway through that debate he's just pulling at this thing all the time he wanted out of there so bad.

Um and and by the way I mean it was really obvious how that debate went but I had a friend out in the audience and afterwards he was standing behind some Roman Catholics that were talking and he heard one saying the other he said you know when father Stravinskis was speaking you could just feel the spirit moving and the truth flowing from him.

But then when white would get up to speak you could see the demons right behind his head. It's sort of like well you know not everybody was hearing the same thing. Uh and uh that's that's sort of sort of how things go.