Veneration of Saints & Images Part 2

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James White vs. Nadir Ahmed, March 21, 2008 Part 3

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I'm starting now Well first I want to thank all of you for your patience, this has been a

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I Think a very interesting evening And I want to bring us back to the points that were made at the very beginning

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Because perhaps we've gotten a little astray on some things that are not necessarily germane to the subject tonight

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I laid out for you the Catholic model for why we

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Venerate why we ask the veneration ask the intercession of the Saints and why we venerate images of them

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I'd like to pause for just a minute on the question of images Because I think a lot of times people especially people in this room perhaps have the misconception that when

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Catholics Reverence an icon whether it's a crucifix. I have one here I thought it would be wise to bring an icon so that we could see what we're talking about here tonight

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This is a crucifix of our crucified Lord In 1st Corinthians chapter 1 st.

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Paul says he wants to know nothing except for Christ crucified He doesn't want the cross to be emptied of its power

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He wants to preach Christ crucified and in the early years of the church after the persecution of the

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Romans ended It became very common for the plain crosses to have affixed to them the corpus the body of our

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Lord Jesus Christ Not to be an idol not to be worshipped as a piece of wood or a piece of marble

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But to remind us of the power of the cross and what Jesus did for us on the cross

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Now I think it's safe to say that this icon here is something that at the very least is deserving of respect

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How many of you Protestants would care to see this icon just thrown around the room?

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How many of you Protestants would want to see an image of Jesus shown some sort of disrespect?

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I'll go a little further Which of you Protestants would be willing to come forward and stomp on this

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If it doesn't have some connection with the heavenly realities that we can't see with our eyes

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Then you should have no trouble coming up and stomping on it But the fact is, you know in your hearts and I know you know in your hearts that this depiction of the

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Lord Jesus Christ is not something for us to worship but to remind us of the power of What he did for us on the cross and when you see

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Catholics Reverencing an icon such as this or an icon of the Virgin Mary. We are not worshipping those icons.

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That is idolatry You also in your homes Catholics and Protestants alike have pictures of your family members

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Pictures of people you love here. I am far away from my home. I live outside of Columbus, Ohio I'm 600 miles from my home and I have a picture of my wife and my children with me

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Now if you were to happen to see me standing out in the hallway During an intermission and because I miss my wife and family you might see me kiss the picture of my family

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Would you recoil in horror and disbelief and say my gosh, he loves

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Kodak paper. Look at the guy How sad no, you wouldn't say that at all you would instinctively know that the love the the honor in a sense that I'm showing to this

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Piece of Kodak paper has nothing to do with the paper or the ink it is Directed to the people that the pit that the picture represents.

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This is true of crucifixes. This is true of statues This is true of any icon and the key to our debate tonight my friends is the the word intention if you intend to fall down and bow before anything and Worship it in place of God.

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You are committing the sin of idolatry If you fall down before a Great person as we read about in 1st

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Chronicles chapter 29 when the people bowed down and did obeisance and reverence To God and the king we are told the people were not worshiping the king

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But they did a good thing in bowing down and worshiping God and in the same act

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Giving homage to the king and it was religious homage When Catholics do this my friends we are not worshiping idols

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We are venerating the memory of real people in heaven who are indeed at rest

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But as we pointed out earlier, Jesus tells us that they are put in charge of many things

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One of those many things is to pray for us And I think if you were to ask the

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Saints in heaven if there were a way that we could ask them I think what you'd find is that for them that is not work

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They love us Far more than they could have loved us when they were here on earth because as Hebrews 12 says they are perfected in righteousness

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James 5 says that the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful Now you may pray for me and I may pray for you and to whatever extent we have a certain

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Righteousness and we're not talking about justification right now To the extent that we have that standing before God our prayers can be powerful

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But those in heaven are perfected in righteousness and their prayers James 5 says are

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Powerful because that statement is not restricted only to those here on earth the prayers of any

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Christian are pleasing to God and they are powerful now we talked earlier about this issue of Idolatry and I want to bring out a few other points this word intention is very important because Catholics who intend

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To worship anything other than the one true God should be rebuked and I would praise

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Jim if he rebuked a Catholic for worshiping a statue Because Jim would be right the

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Catholic would be wrong But similarly we have icons that even

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Protestants themselves would recognize as worthy of respect It's not it's an irony that actually

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I picked this book up because I wanted to read it But now I realize it was sitting in my briefcase. It has a perfect bearing on tonight's discussion the book.

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She said yes Have any of you read this book? It's about a young lady named

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Cassie Bernal. She was one of the high school students in Columbine and She was shot in The act of saying that she believed in God She was a martyr

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So here we have these these Animals standing there shooting kids and they come up to this young girl and they say do you believe in God and she says yes

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I believe in God BAM Now her face is depicted on the cover of this book

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Which of you would show this image of this young girl disrespect and isn't it not more

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Human isn't it not more natural for us to show a martyr the respect for the victory that she has won

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Or an image of the Virgin Mary or the image of st Stephen st Augustine tells us in his in the passages that we didn't have time to read tonight about how not only was the practice of Venerating and asking for the intercession of st.

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Stephen very common in his time But he also tells us that st. Stephen would never want to be worshipped in place of God never want to be shown

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The kind of honor and worship that is proper to God alone. This is what we have to remember that the

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Catholic Church whether Jim likes it or not makes a distinction In the

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Catholic Church, we recognize that there is Reverence due to the friends of God the martyrs the

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Saints That is proper. That is biblical There is

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Idolatry on the other side and the Catholic Church has always forbidden idolatry So whether Jim likes it or not, there is a distinction.

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There is a development in the understanding of these terms and I can assure you that neither

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I nor any Catholic. I know any Catholic in this room Worships statues. Thank you.

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Of course what I like or don't like is irrelevant this evening. I don't matter

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It's what God's Word says and what he has said about his worship that does matter Rome makes the distinction the whole point is the distinction is contrary to what

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God has said in his Word This icon was shown to us and No one want to come up here and smash it.

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We were told All right We were told it's because you know in your hearts what it represents what is most offensive to me

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About this representation It's not the wood Not necessarily what it looks like I'll be perfectly honest with you.

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You know what offends me about that It's because in Roman Catholicism That's not a finished act.

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It is a repeated act. Oh, I know we've debated the one -time You know representation all the rest that stuff if it doesn't perfect you it's not the cross of Christ That's what offends me and I know that in my heart and if you're a

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Roman Catholic you need to understand That's why it offends me You may not agree

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But I can give you a very biblical basis and reason for it. We were told that The key tonight is intention

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I Want you to listen very carefully, especially in the closing statements, I'd like to raise some scriptural passages about that but The Context of Latria and Dulia is what determines whether it's idolatry or not when a soldier bows before When a

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Roman soldier bows for a centurion That would not be in a religious context folks

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If I Took out of my wallet the pictures of my family I don't need to do that tonight because most of them are here for the first time in seven years

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And I'm glad to have them here if I took those pictures out of my wallet and I showed them to you or I kissed them

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Not a religious context when you are in the church in that quiet place lighting those candles on your knees praying

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For grace and merit. It doesn't get any more religious than that and That is the context that determines the meaning of the word

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When we build a statue of Lee or Grant or someone else like that Everyone recognizes that there's a different context but the whole problem is that's a religious context right there and That is the very use of the words that I have shown you and no effort has been made to refute this

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Showed you from passage after passage after passage Worship and serve worship and serve

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Latria and Dulia Latria and Dulia. Every single one is religious And that is the issue this evening

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We were told in the seven points Christ Church is Christ's body it is Second that Christ has only one body he does

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The death does not divide us in the sense of splitting us under the body of Christ. That's true But it does put us in a different place and it changes our relationship with others

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I wanted to get to this across examination, but do you pray to people in purgatory? Why not aren't they in the body of Christ if they're in purgatory?

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That means they are a part of the body of Christ, aren't they? You see they're in some different place and don't you treat them differently than saints in heaven?

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Well, of course you do so you recognize there's a distinction. So when you say well death does not divide us

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The relationship remains but it's in a different type That's why they're described as being asleep.

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That doesn't mean they're unconscious but to us There is a distinction that's made that's why the

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Bible Recognizes that yes those who've died Moses was alive to God, but he's dead to us

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Don't try to use Moses as credit card a Change has taken place and therefore the rest of the argumentation

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Christians are united in charity We imitate the Saints well biblically every single believer in Jesus Christ is a saint this whole idea that there's you know

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Supererogation and merits and all the rest of the Treasury of merit all the rest of stuff completely and utterly unbiblical concepts and Therefore to say we are able to invoke the intercession of the

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Saints Does not follow from what came before and As we saw in the cross -examination, we do not see

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That kind of activity being promoted by the Apostles at all

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So the seven points that have been presented to us do not give us a foundation for ignoring the fact

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That the lottery of duly distinction upon which this entire argument is based

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Collapses when examined on the basis scripture may I point something out to my knowledge? There was no one the second

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Nicene Council who ever addressed the meaning of Hebrew terms

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Translation of them what the Bible says In fact as I mentioned before the extant records as far as I can tell do not even mention the presentation of any biblical counter argumentation and So fundamentally folks, what do we have this evening?

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Well, I think we've already seen it Why is veneration of Saints angels and images consistent with the

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Bible because Rome says so and if Rome says so well That's it. The assertion has been made.

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Well Matthew 18. That means Rome's infallible. No, it doesn't There's nothing about Rome in Matthew 18. He who hears you hears me has nothing to do with the bishop of the church in Rome at All that's an assumption that has all sorts of historical problems with it

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And if you'd like to see the various debates have been done on that We did the papacy against father Mitchell Pacwa go look at the videotapes.

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I do a Jerry Matta takes seven hours up in Denver in 1993 go look at the videotapes

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There's all sorts of reason to question all of that, but that's the fundamental reason it's been given the church says so we assume that the church

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That existed in the time of the second Nicene Council is the same as the same as the church at the time of the first Nicene Council and before that the assumption is

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That modern Roman Catholicism is the faith of the ancient church Problem is there wasn't anyone the

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Nicene Council that believed what you believe today dogmatically about many issues

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From purgatory and indulgences to the Marian dogmas and the papacy and everything else

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So why should we grant the assumption that this is the same church? This is an argument

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Fundamentally in the final analysis from authority. We're right believe us Jesus taught us whenever someone comes to us and says we're right

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He says go to what God has said and find out We are following Christ's example to do so.

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Thank you. You are being excellent tonight

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We have closing statements first by mr. Madrid and then by mr. White those will be 10 minutes each

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Following that we'll have just a brief break not for you to get up and move around but to get our microphones set

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I want to remind you again if you have questions, please Write them down a

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Question time is not for you to give your own viewpoints or preach or teach. It's to ask a question

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So write it down. So we might make best use of time our 10 -minute closing speeches beginning now with Mr.

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Madrid, well

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It's been a long night. It's been a good night though, I think Because it's done a couple of things.

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First of all, it's given me a chance to Present the case for the

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Catholic Church, even though it was an abbreviated case I recognize that the constraints of time work against us

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Jim probably has a lot more that he'd like to say I certainly have a lot more I'd like to say a lot more evidence to bring out but the fact is

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I think we've been able to at least show the General parameters of what divides us on this subject and I'd like to recap those in just a moment

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But first I want to point out what we have here tonight. We have a problem. We have no more more pointedly we have a controversy and I think the controversy really stems from the question of who is really able to Determine what the church believed in the early centuries

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Now I would argue that not only were the councils those Mechanisms that were able to do that we read about the first council that did that in Acts chapter 15

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When the the council was able to deliberate on the subject of Gentile believers being permitted into the church without undergoing all the

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Circumcision laws and kosher food laws we see the in the in the New Testament itself the church

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Operating in council to make these determinations and my brothers and sisters those determinations were binding on the

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Christians who received them So the thing I'd like to point out here is that The early church had the authority to be able to interpret the biblical data and Apply it to the way in which it lived out its life including the liturgies including the prayers including the way in which the church

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Expressed her belief in the importance of the Saints now. I know that Jim Says that that is not

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Appropriate or that is not true or that is not to be believed or accepted tonight But I am standing here tonight to say that when

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Jesus said in Luke 10 15 10 16 He who listens to you listens to me.

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He who rejects you rejects me. He was imparting authority to somebody

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To speak in his name Now I've heard this claim so many times before that the early church was not the

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Catholic Church I Defy anybody including

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Jim To really examine what the early

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Christians believed and taught just read their their words for themselves and You will find that far from what he asserted a moment ago that the

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Nicene Council Christians didn't believe all these different things that the Catholic Church teaches. They did believe them they wrote about them and not only then but for centuries and centuries prior to The Second Council of Nicaea in the year 787 this is amply documented

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This is what we just heard a moment ago. This is a claim that will not stand up to the scrutiny of history

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And I don't ask you to take my word for it. I ask any of you all of you I believe are fair -minded people.

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I ask you to examine it for yourselves go down to the local Barnes and Noble and Start reading the the writings of the early church and you'll see what

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I'm talking about There are many many other issues that we want to try to cover but let's at least deal with the issue of the one mediator argument

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That was raised a little earlier first Timothy 2 5. I believe that Jesus is the one mediator He is the one and the only one who can bridge the gap of sin

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Between where we are stranded in alienation and where God is in all holiness only

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Christ can do that Why because only Christ is God? Mary is not

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God. St. Stephen is not God. St. Michael the Archangel is not God None of them have the ability to be the one mediator but notice that Jesus shares

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The different unique roles that he has in subordinate ways with his friends For example,

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Jesus is the king of kings, isn't he? He's the king I believe and Yet Jesus says that the

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Apostles that all Christians are going to reign as kings in heaven wearing crowns sitting on thrones

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Jesus is the creator the book of Hebrews tells us But he shares that procreative role with us with human mothers and fathers

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We have a subordinate share in the way in which God ultimately creates he creates through men and women

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Jesus is the Supreme Judge, isn't he? Do you believe that I do?

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But Jesus says that Christians are going to judge in heaven. We will judge the angels

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There is a subordinate share that believers have in the ministry of Christ never taking away from what

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Jesus has done Never taking away the uniqueness of his role But we see over and over and over again that Jesus shares these roles with his followers

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That's why my friends in 1st Timothy 2 verses 1 through 4 That's why st.

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Paul can say not what Jim was implying a few minutes ago Pray for people on earth pray only when you're on earth pray for Kings pray for the people who are persecuting

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Christians That's not what the passage says The passage says pray for everyone

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Everyone and this command to pray is not restricted just to those of us here on earth

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Nothing in the context would imply that this is a standing command in Scripture that Christians are called upon to pray for and Assist as st.

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Paul says to bear one another's burdens and by so doing we will fulfill the law of Christ You and I have burdens here on earth, don't we?

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We struggle with sin we struggle with all kinds of Adversity here on earth and we rely on one another's prayers, don't we?

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I asked a whole lot of people to pray for me tonight in the days and weeks leading up to this debate

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Why because I need prayer This is a challenging setting you need prayer and the thing that separates so sadly

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This is this is a tragedy really the thing that separates us is that every Sunday millions of Christians around the world recite the words of the

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Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed and Those words include the words we believe in the communion of saints now as a

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Catholic I believe that that communion Transcends time and space and as I pointed out to you in my opening remarks

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Through those seven points There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that the unity that you and I have in and through Jesus Christ is somehow severed or somehow

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Restricted or in some other way diminished if you and I have the capability even

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I would add The admonition the exhortation from Holy Scripture to pray for one another and to assist one another here on earth

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We have all the more Reason to do that when we're in heaven perfected in righteousness

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And I'm afraid to say that Jim has not offered us a single example from Scripture or the early church

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And remember that was the that was the thesis for tonight's debate That this act of asking for the intercession of the

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Saints venerating them etc is Not consistent with Scripture in Christian tradition.

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It is in the seven points that I laid out remember showed It was like it like links in a chain

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There's one body not one in heaven and one on earth all members of the body are united in Christ Death does not separate us, etc

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That's the real issue here tonight. If the Bible is to be understood according to its plain reading then all

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Christians including those in heaven are part of that organic body of Christ and Contribute to the to the lifting up to the improvement of the spiritual well -being of everyone else

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Remember what st. Paul said in 1st Corinthians chapter 12? This is really a forceful passage and it pains me when

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I hear my friend Jim here Saying well that that just refers to the local assembly. No It refers to the whole church

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St. Paul said I'll read it again Verse 12 as a body is one though It has many parts and all the parts of the body though many are one body.

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So also Christ For in one spirit we were all baptized into the one body

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Whether Jews or Greeks slaves or free persons and we were all given to drink of one spirit

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Now the body is not a single part But many if a foot should say because I am NOT a hand

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I do not belong to the body It does not for this reason belong any less to the body or if an ear should say because I am

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NOT an eye I do not belong to the body It does not for this reason belong any less to the body if the whole body were an eye

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Where would the hearing be if the whole body were hearing where would the sense of smell be? But as it is God has placed the parts each one of them in the body as he intended if they were all one part

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They were where would the body be? But as it is there are many parts yet one body the eye cannot say to the hand

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I do not need you nor again. Can the head say to the feet? I do not need you tonight what we have witnessed here is

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One of the members of the body of Christ saying to all those members of the body of Christ in heaven

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I do not need you. I Am here to say tonight that we do need our brothers and sisters in heaven

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We do need their prayers and they are there praying for us And I thank you for your patience.

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Good night and God bless you. Of course.

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It is Sadly a very obvious misrepresentation that that is what I have said. I The Holy Spirit within service in the ministry the body of Christ and Obviously as I have pointed out in no reference no reputation has been offered that changes when a person enters into the presence of God When the passage in first Timothy 2 speaks of praying for everyone

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It is pure Isaac Jesus to mean and that means for saints in heaven Because as I've pointed out if I pray for someone that they would strive against sin

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That's irrelevant to a person who's in heaven that shows the change that takes place

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When a person enters into rest and peace in Christ I've been defied to show

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Mr. Madrid Anyone who denied the thing he said I would like to challenge instead of defy.

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Mr Madrid to find me one council father at the Council of Nicaea and I was talking about 325

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One council father at Nicaea who believed what? Mr. Madrid dogmatically believes today about the papacy purgatory indulgences the priesthood and all the

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Marian dogmas Not a one did and Roman Catholic historians admit it

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We were told the issue tonight is about what the early church believed. It's not The thesis was about Christian tradition as I've pointed out that is a very selective thing

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Rome just says that's tradition that isn't I showed you as councils have showed you statements and Roman Catholic sources admit that these were a part of the patristic sources

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How about we allow Peter to interpret things in Acts 10 25 to 26 when

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Cornelius bowed before him He was just showing him honor, right? I mean Peter is worthy of honor.

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Isn't he was down the monitor amount of transfiguration Apostle when Cornelius bows before him.

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What does Peter do? Don't do that. I'm just a man When in Revelation chapter 19 their angel has shown

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John all these tremendous things and that angel deserves honor And so John bows down before the angel and the angels don't do that worship

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God alone Let's let those early church fathers

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Interpret for us because we know what they believed because it's been provided for us in Scripture True worship is determined in its nature solely by what

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God says is pleasing to him Man has no place determining what is right and proper worship.

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Only God can and has revealed what is proper and true worship So seriously does

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God take the matter of our acknowledging him as our creator and him alone that he identifies Idolatry is one of the most heinous and grievous sins in his sight

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Two very very unpopular passages unpopular in the sense that they do not fit with today's man -centered religions

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Solemnly testified to the importance of offering pure and proper worship to God Both these passages speak to the importance of obeying what

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God has revealed concerning how he is to be worshipped first in Leviticus chapter 10 Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron having been fully instructed in the proper form of worship took liberties going beyond what

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God had ordained We read in verses 1 through 3 Now David Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron took their respective firepans and after putting fire in them placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the

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Lord which he had not commanded them and Fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them and they died before the

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Lord Then Moses said to Aaron it is what the Lord spoke saying by those who come near me

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I will be treated as holy and before all the people I will be honored. So Aaron therefore kept silent

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Modern man might make many excuses for Nadab and Abihu Man might say that they were new to the job that they were simply expressing freedom in worship

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Such things may impress post -modern Americans, but obviously did not impress the Almighty By those who come near to God, he will be treated as holy to violate

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God's own revealed Will concerning how he is to be worshipped is to treat him as unholy There is no neutrality here

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Violate God's commands and you engage in idolatry The punishment may not come as quickly as it did for Nadab and Abihu, but it will be just as certain anyway

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Nadab and Abihu went beyond what God commanded as We've seen this evening

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Rome has as well The second passage is even more striking when David is taking the ark back to Jerusalem after God strikes the

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Philistines for keeping possession of it An incident takes place that illustrates our point this evening with great force in 2nd

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Samuel 6 beginning of verse 3 we read they placed the ark of God on a new cart that they might bring it from the house

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Of Abinadab which was on the hill and Uzzah and Ahio the sons of Abinadab were leading the new cart

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So they brought it with the ark of God from the house of Abinadab which was on the hill and Ahio was walking ahead of the cart

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Meanwhile of the ark meanwhile David and all the house of Israel were Celebrating before the

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Lord with all kinds of instruments made of firwood and with lyres harps tambourines castanets and cymbals

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When they came to the threshing floor of naked Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it for the oxen nearly upset it and The anger of the

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Lord burned against Uzzah and God struck him down there for his irreverence

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And he died there by the ark of God David became angry because the

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Lord's outburst against Uzzah and that place is called Perez Uzzah to this day You see

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God had told Israel to carry the ark on poles not on a cart David and the people were in violation of God's revealed will oh surely

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They were having a grand time David and the people were dancing and having a wonderful worship experience at least from the human standpoint

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But the human standpoint is irrelevant member. We were told the key of this debate tonight is intention

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Not from God's perspective modern men Want to excuse

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Uzzah for what he did Wasn't he just trying to help wasn't his intention to do something good

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How could God hold him accountable for what he did didn't someone else tell him to walk where he was walking Wasn't it really

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David's fault or the priest's fault? Maybe this was how Uzzah had been taught. Maybe he was following a tradition of the elders or the infallible

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Jewish magisterium It didn't matter He touched the ark of God which represented his holy presence with the people of Israel and despite the fact that it ruined

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David's party God struck Uzzah dead There is no biblical difference between worshiping someone and serving someone in the religious context

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Lottery and duly are both terms that go back to a single concept in the Bible as we have seen To worship is both to bow down and to serve you cannot separate them

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There is no biblical distinction between lottery and duly either in usage or in logical meaning

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In the context of our religious attitude and posture Which is surely what prayer and veneration of Saints angels or images involves the

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Lottery a duly a distinction is without substance or meaning Pleading the

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Lottery a duly a distinction would not have saved a Jew caught bowing before a statue of an ancestor and pleading it before a

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Holy God today will have no more benefit. God's holiness has not changed with our cultural change

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The Bible knows nothing of offering prayer to anyone but God For prayer is an act of worship acknowledging the authority and power of the one being prayed to This is why though.

35:04

The New Testament is still being written. Well after Christian martyrs are entering into the presence of God There is no unambiguous reference to any communication with them

35:14

Misused apocalyptic passages in the book of Revelation do not provide a sound foundation the violation of God's command against idolatry

35:21

The 24 elders were not the objects of prayer or veneration by people on earth You may well be able to honestly say

35:30

That you were ignorant of the biblical facts concerning Lottery a duly a prosecute. Oh avad, whatever

35:36

God has been merciful to you Allowing you to know the truth this evening It is quite possible that the men who met a second

35:43

Nicene Council were likewise ignorant of the biblical facts Their error may have led to the tradition that you have held that has nullified the

35:51

Word of God on this vital issue They will bear their burden before God, but you will bear yours as well

35:58

Jesus warned us about following allegedly divine traditions that nullify the scriptures It will be no excuse my friends to say but but I thought the church was infallible

36:09

Jesus did not accept that idea when the Jews pressed the traditions of the elders upon him Which they thought came from Moses nor should you?

36:20

What will you do now? Will you acknowledge God's absolute right to determine what is and what is not pleasing worship before him

36:28

My friends. I believe very firmly only God's Spirit can make us willing and desirous of worshiping him a right

36:34

I Pray he will grant to all here this evening that gift of grace that leads to just such obedience

36:42

Thank you very much. I need my microphone holder

37:02

James Already we've gotten the nearest we have to a bouncer here, so if you get out of line

37:09

James will deal with you What we're going to do James you've got the microphone

37:14

I'm going to ask that those who have questions line up in back of James Your questions are to be 30 seconds again if you still have them write them down When you are done asking your question, please sit down So the next person can get in line

37:34

Please direct your question to one or both speakers If you have a question for mr.

37:41

Madrid address it to him through me or to mr. White address it to him through me if you're addressing both

37:47

Will begin with mr. Madrid and then be followed by mr. White if you're if You are addressing only one person.

37:58

We will give the other speaker an opportunity to respond I'm asking that both mr.

38:04

Madrid and mr. White be concise so that in the 45 minutes that we have we can do as many questions as possible

38:12

James you ready? The first questioner, please the microphone is not on with the one two one two there we go hear you

38:25

Mr.. Madrid suppose your Version of Mary or one of the

38:31

Saints is wrong in terms of its actual picture What consequence would there be for example, let's say

38:39

Jesus is black or Hispanic In his physical appearance, let's say one of the

38:45

Saints is likewise In your theology, what would be the consequence of venerating?

38:53

the wrong image A No consequence whatsoever because the veneration does not

39:02

Is not for the image itself the veneration goes to the person that the image represents and when we get to heaven

39:09

We'll find out what Jesus looked like and what a given Saint looked like the fact that we have

39:14

Representations of them is for our benefit to remind us of those people But there is no problem whatsoever if we depict st.

39:24

Luke with dark hair, and it turns out he had blonde hair for example Just very briefly my whole concern about this whole issue is the fact that all believers are saints and Hence the idea of even worrying about what they look like is is problematic

39:45

Every believer in Jesus Christ has the righteousness of Christ Which is perfect and therefore goes directly into the presence of Christ when he dies this distinction doesn't exist our next question

39:56

Hi an answer from both if you could My question is how can Mary hear the prayers of multitude millions at the same time?

40:05

Is this not an attribute that only belongs to God? Mr. Madrid It is not an attribute that belongs only to God I think you're referring to the the two characteristics of Omnipotence and omnipresence omnipotence meaning that God is all -powerful.

40:20

There's nothing he cannot do Omnipresence means that he's everywhere and we have to remember that because God is infinite those attributes themselves are infinite

40:29

So that means there's no end to what God can do. There's no end or there's no limit. Let's say to what

40:35

God knows now in the case of let's say People are praying to Mary as an example

40:43

You may have untold millions of people at any given moment in the world

40:49

Praying to Mary all sorts of different languages English Spanish, etc No matter how many of those prayers ascend at any given time.

40:58

They are still finite There there is no need for omnipresence or omniscience or omnipotence.

41:04

I mentioned omniscience. That's knowing everything and So because these are finite

41:10

Numbers of prayers there is simply no Question of that intruding upon those characteristics that are property got alone

41:18

The problem is not at that end of the spectrum the problem is with us because we can't understand how that happens and Really for us to argue that it can't happen just because we don't understand how it can happen

41:32

Would be I think a futile line of argumentation for example Jesus himself tells us in the gospel of Luke that there is great rejoicing in heaven and he makes a distinction here

41:43

There's great rejoicing in heaven He says that and then he says there's great rejoicing before the angels over the repentance of evil even a single sinner

41:53

Now how it is that we could take the same the same example and apply it here

41:59

Let's say that at any given moment. There are millions of people repenting of their sins so Jesus himself says that those individual repentances are known by those in heaven angels and saints and So we don't know how that's done

42:16

But we do know that it is done that somehow through God letting them know

42:21

They are aware of individual repentances Mr.

42:28

White there are a number of problems what was just said I think it's a misuse of Luke in passage. The point there is not to attempt to provide some discussion of How many times rejoicing takes place in heaven?

42:39

But the fact that it is God's desire to see sinful people come to him rather than righteous people

42:44

That's the whole point of Jesus context there If we read it in context read anything else into it is to misuse the passage

42:49

But the key issue here is very clear Are we I guess we're being asked to believe that once you become glorified 50 ,000 people can talk to you at once in 20 different languages and you'll understand all of them

43:00

And that this is what Saints are doing in heaven And I've raised the issue a number of times never gotten an answer to it if it is the

43:06

Holy Spirit of God Who has the divine attribute of being able to read our hearts and minds and bring our prayers before the father?

43:14

Then who's doing this for the Saints? It is a divine attribute to be able to understand the heart and mind of an individual

43:20

And so if a saint can understand my heart and mind that is a divine attribute and that's one of the main problems here

43:26

To say well, we just don't know Given the absolute lack of any biblical evidence on this whatsoever

43:32

Shows I think the the issue of sola ecclesia here over against sola scriptura next question dr.

43:40

White If Mary and the other Saints supposedly can't handle those prayers from us on earth because they are not

43:47

God How is it then possible for Satan to be tempting all of us as constantly and consistently as he does?

43:54

You believe Satan to be omniscient. No, it's through his demons Mr. Madrid He asked me to be succinct

44:05

Well, I I think that what we just saw here is a clear example of dodging a bullet because that question was right on target in other words, the devil is a creature and St.

44:15

Peter tells us in his second epistle that Satan is Like a roaring lion prowling around he doesn't say

44:22

Satan and his crew Satan himself the devil So there is a unique and personal quality to the temptation that Satan in the individual being himself

44:32

Carries out and the questioner was absolutely right. This is something that's going on on a global scale affecting billions of people and Jim simply just dodged the bullet by saying oh, well, it's his demons doing it everyone in the room

44:48

I think understands the force of the question that it's a creature performing an unbelievable action

44:55

That we can't understand how it can be done But the fact is this creature is capable of doing it and the extension of that thought is that the

45:02

Saints in heaven Even more so because they are in in Christ and through his grace are capable of doing astounding things next question

45:13

Mr. Madrid, please hold the microphone close to your mind is a two -part question. Mr. Madrid Looking clearly at the

45:21

Bible. You are the ones that justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your heart all throughout The Bible we know that only God knows you're speaking too fast.

45:27

I can't follow you The Bible tells us that only God knows a man's heart Okay Yes Now this

45:32

Pope that we know in this office has canonized more Saints to my understanding than the history of the whole entire Church Who are we as men to determine the heart of a man that he should become a saint?

45:43

And if the Pope and past Popes were right, then what if st. Christopher who millions went to their grave venerating?

45:48

Okay, that's an excellent question, by the way, and I thank you for it The issue is not so much that the church decides to make them

45:55

Saints Actually, that's not the issue at all Anyone who is in heaven is a saint in the particular sense that we're using the term now in the

46:02

Catholic sense But as Jim pointed out all Christians are Saints those on earth are Saints those in heaven are

46:07

Saints But according to this particular usage what the church does that at a canonization is declare that this person

46:14

Definitely is in heaven. Are we we're not having follow that we're having follow -ups to this That wasn't my question though.

46:20

My question was how would you determine who is to make it to heaven? How do we know man's heart? How does the church determine?

46:27

Determine how that man gets to heaven the church determines that by by looking at the heroic qualities of that person's life

46:33

So one of the first thing that the church would examine would be virtue was this person a follower of Jesus Christ Did he live in conformity with what

46:42

Jesus asks of us and then there are certain tests that are applied for example In order for somebody to be reckoned as a saint in heaven with certitude

46:50

Then the church requests that certain miracles not particular miracles, but that there be miracles

46:56

So for example when you have somebody who is dying of cancer in the the hospice riddled with cancer

47:03

Maybe only a few days to live and when that person through the intercession of a saint, for example, st

47:09

Padre Pio who was recently canonized is completely cured Where there is no trace of the cancer the doctors are baffled

47:16

There's no way to explain it in any medical or scientific way The church will recognize that that is an ex that that is

47:23

Evidence of the intercessory power of that person and the church declares that that person is heaven

47:28

I'm giving you a truncated version of what the process of canonization is but it's based upon did that person exhibit?

47:37

Those qualities that we know must be there for him or her to be in heaven. Mr. White Well, if I were to take the same approach as the last question

47:46

I would have to say well that's dodging a bullet we didn't hear anything about st. Christopher at all because it does illustrate the fact that the

47:53

The whole process is a fallible one that it's based upon an unbiblical teaching

48:00

That this concept of excess merit is thoroughly and completely unbiblical

48:05

There is no treasury of merit or any of the kind So the problem is that when we talk about well

48:11

I I will pray to this person, but you know This Pope may be still in purgatory or something like that that whole everything we're discussing here is so far beyond what you

48:21

Read the New Testament Read the prayers Find every prayer in the

48:26

New Testament. You won't find anything even remotely like this in any of the prayers of the New Testament That's why you know, we just heard about Padre Pio.

48:35

I had a Sikh Drive me in my car in a car from the airport. He was healed at 10 years of age by a

48:42

By a religious leader Does that mean that that person is something? What does that mean?

48:48

Well, it means that Satan masquerades as an angel of light is what it means We have to have an objective standard by which to test things that standard is the

48:55

Word of God I think that is clearly being illustrated this evening next questioner This question is for mr.

49:03

White mr. White you clarified tonight that the early church used a

49:08

Septuagint the Septuagint I said the Apostles use a

49:14

Septuagint. Okay, that's even better. Thank you Septuagint is that the Old Testament is that is the

49:19

Old Testament is identical to the Catholic Bible Listing all the books that are in it now that your sister has converted to the

49:26

Catholic Church. Does she use that Bible? Two problems two errors and I don't know that she would know anything about this particular issue.

49:34

You'd have to ask her But the first error that you've made is to assume That the canon of the

49:39

Septuagint is identical to yours. That's your first error You're about a hundred and twenty years behind in your scholarship on that point if you would look for example at modern studies, you would discover that the distinction between an alleged

49:50

Palestinian and Alexandrian canon does not exist that Philo the Jew for example did not hold the apocryphal books then again neither did

49:58

Athanasius Jerome or Gregory the great Pope of Rome But they we did a debate on that if you'd like to hear that between myself and Jerry medics at one point but as to What my sister knows all

50:11

I know is she never talked to me about her conversion And that's right now. All I'm hearing is just what you would read in this rock magazine or something like that I don't think she has any idea what the canon of the

50:21

Septuagint was So I'm not sure why you'd ask me that question. That's a very interesting question to ask

50:28

I I certainly don't know what version of Scripture Patti Bonds used Patti Bonds, by the way is

50:34

James's sister She came to the Catholic Church a year and a half ago, and I don't know what version of Scripture she uses

50:41

Next time I talked to her I will ask her that but I can tell you she does use the Catholic Bible that contains the

50:47

Canon of Scripture that the Catholic Church teaches includes the seven deuterocanonical books of the

50:54

Old Testament as well as sections of Esther and Daniel that were omitted from the

50:59

King James Bible the other thing I can mention is given the the point that James made about not knowing

51:06

I Forgive me for not being able to rephrase it exactly but not knowing what her thought is on the matter

51:12

It's a point of interest. I think that her Her conversion story in which she is explaining what her reasons were for becoming

51:22

Catholic and how she was raised in an Protestant home and I think in a very

51:28

Thorough and also charitable way She lays out her reasons for converting to the Catholic Church in the sequel to surprised by truth

51:36

It's surprised by truth 3 which is coming out this fall So anybody who has the least bit of interest in reading in her own words her reasons for that You'll be able to do that in a few months

51:46

I want to remind you that the topic for the debate this evening is prayer to That was a pretty cheap

51:54

Now we're answering the question that they've the topic isn't it this prayer to and veneration of the

52:02

Saints as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them is Compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition and your questions should reflect that topic of the evening the next questioner

52:15

Um first, I'd like to thank both you gentlemen, I direct my question to mr.

52:20

Madrid in the Roman Catholic Church Aren't relics that is pieces of bone or clothing of martyrs or Popes etc

52:29

Worshipped as icons in the sense that special healing powers are attributed to them

52:35

No, they're not worshipped as icons. They're not worshipped at all The relics of the Saints are precious in the eyes of the

52:42

Lord Scripture tells us that the death of his Holy Ones is precious in his eyes and So the church from the earliest days has reverence the remains of the

52:52

Saints not as some object of worship or anything like that but rather because we realized that these men and women were temples of the

52:59

Holy Spirit indwelled by by the the Spirit of God himself and therefore that in addition to the fact that they died as for the very often as martyrs

53:11

Caused their relics to be worthy of respect and so no Catholic worships the relic of any

53:16

Saints I've never met a Catholic who does I don't I've never heard of the Catholic Church ever

53:23

Proposing that we should but rather we hold them in a in a sacred memory and we reverence them That's why you sometimes will see reliquaries that that are ornate they have perhaps

53:34

Precious stones or they're in some way trying to show the Importance of this martyr not as an object of worship, but to show forth the glory of God through the death of his

53:46

Holy Ones Mr. White. Well, this again illustrates the difference between sola ecclesia and sola scriptura

53:51

There is nothing in the New Testament that even begins to hint at such a practice or a propriety of such a practice We recognize at the time of the

53:58

Reformation the veneration of relics gave you all sorts of indulgences So here by going and for example

54:06

Looking at a feather that allegedly came from the angel Gabriel You can receive time out of purgatory and receive grace from God from the

54:13

Treasury of Merit I think something like this. It's just simply impossible to say well, you know, that's just honor

54:21

That's just it's very very clear. This is in a religious context this is in a context of seeking grace and merit and as we have seen this evening, therefore it violates the

54:31

Biblical prohibition against idolatry And to seek to gain indulgence and grace from God and and freedom from punishment by looking at some femur of someone who died 500 years ago is

54:45

Not a part of the Christian faith in any way shape or form next question. My question is for mr

54:53

Drid and bear with me if I'm not reading this too. Well In light of the

54:58

Old Testament teaching against communicating with the dead found in Deuteronomy 18 and 10 11 and Isaiah 8 19

55:04

Why is that? why is that different than the Roman Catholic teaching of saints of Saints on earth praying to saints in heaven

55:16

If I understand the question correctly what you're asking is how does necromancy which is forbidden in the

55:21

Old Testament? compare or contrast with the the Christian tradition which goes back to the very earliest days of the church of invoking the intercession of the

55:30

Saints the dis the difference would be this in the Old Testament the prohibitions against necromancy are precisely because it was it involved diabolical powers to conjure spirits to raise the dead as we saw with the

55:44

Witch of Endor raising the Spirit of the Prophet Samuel so that Saul could find out what was going on These every place where these things are forbidden it is precisely because it is trying to tap into a power other than God in other words

56:00

It's a way of of falling a falling prey Excuse me to the wiles of the devil because this is diabolical activity

56:07

The Catholic Church has always forbidden necromancy open the catechism and you'll see Examples of where the church says this the church fathers speak about the prohibition against necromancy

56:18

The difference however, is that those who are alive in Christ in heaven if God permits it?

56:25

They are able to hear our prayers answer our prayers They're even at times permitted to come into direct contact with human beings here on earth

56:32

For example on the Mount of Transfiguration God himself the Lord Jesus Christ brought into direct contact three living saints here on earth

56:41

Peter James and John with three living saints in heaven Moses and Elijah in The Lord himself for his own inscrutable purposes arranged for this contact between the two of them

56:53

That was not necromancy now. I grant the fact that Peter James and John didn't request anything from Moses and Elijah There was no intercession.

57:01

There's no petition There was none of that stuff and nobody claims there is but the fact is in and through Christ There is a connection that we have with those who are alive in heaven.

57:11

That is nothing whatsoever to do with necromancy Mr. White the very fact that you have to parallel the absolutely unique experience of Moses and Elijah representing the law and the prophets appearing upon the

57:23

Mount of Transfiguration to the three chief apostles as Evidence the testimony of the law and the prophets the

57:29

Messiah ship and deity of Jesus Christ the concept of the intercession to saints I think demonstrates just how far one must go to come up with anything that even remotely looks biblical in Regards this concept read

57:41

Isaiah 8 19 through 20 when they say to you consult the mediums and the spiritist to whisper and mutter

57:46

Should not a people consult their God Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living the answers those questions are obvious and notice what comes in verse 20

57:56

To the law and to the testimony if they do not speak according to this word it is because they have no dawn

58:04

Go to the law and the testimony That is the exhortation in this passage

58:11

It uses the very same distinction that Protestants use between living and dead aren't all those who are dead alive in in God Well, of course they are but it's proper to refer to them as the dead and they are not to be consulted on behalf of the living

58:25

The next no applause, please at this point next questioner Good evening gentlemen, my name

58:32

Forget it. This is for mr. Madrid Since you both were in agreement that the

58:37

Saints are truly believers, which is attested in how Paul addressed the Saints can you please explain to me why it is that you automatically when you're when you're conveying scripture about praying to the

58:52

Saints that you're you're you're Automatically describing Saints that are already passed away and not that he's asking for this

59:01

The Saints that are living to pray for each other and not Necessarily print the

59:07

Saints that are already in heaven to pray for us. Mr. Madrid Thank you. If I understand your question, and I I will

59:15

I will try to state it as I understood it What you're asking is this the scriptural passages that were brought up tonight

59:23

Deal with the intercession the prayer aren't showing honor and so forth to Saints on earth

59:31

And is it appropriate to apply those to the Saints in heaven? If does that do justice to your question in other words to those verses apply also to the

59:40

Saints in heaven Yes, are they automatically applied? Okay Well the just in a succinct way the best way

59:47

I could answer that is yes And that was the thesis of my opening statement and that is that all of these

59:53

Commandments to honor to assist to pray for to to all these things that we talked about earlier.

01:00:00

Those are incumbent upon all members of the body of Christ and The point that I was making earlier is that those in heaven even though we can't see them with our physical eyes

01:00:11

Hebrews 12 1 tells us they are a cloud of witnesses and the word witness means they're

01:00:17

They're watching they are seeing us even the word Martyr comes from that word witness meaning that they are testifying to the the truth of God.

01:00:28

So These passages that we that we spoke about earlier definitely Include by extension those

01:00:35

Saints in heaven and my earlier comment I think is has still gone unanswered that these are a standing command in Scripture There is no evidence in Scripture that tells us that when the

01:00:46

Saints depart from this earth and enter into glory That these things that they were commanded to do here on earth such as pray for us have somehow been rescinded

01:00:56

Otherwise two errors I have responded of course a number of times and I have pointed out that there are many things that are part of the

01:01:01

Commands that are rescinded when we enter into the presence of God We are no longer for example to be engulfed engaged in the striving against sin because we have been relieved from it

01:01:10

Etc, etc Second error is that Hebrews 12 is not saying that the Saints in heaven are sitting there like they're sitting in a stadium watching

01:01:17

What's going on here? because Hebrews 12 1 comes at the end of Hebrews chapter 11 which talks about the

01:01:23

Heroes of the faith and the testimony that they bore was their testimony of their life Not that they are observing what is going on here

01:01:31

So it says therefore since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us little Let's lay aside every encumbrance in the sin which so easily entangles us

01:01:38

That doesn't mean that they're here on earth observing what we're doing They have given their testimony and that's why

01:01:44

Paul the writer to the Hebrews not Paul Whoever it was can say in verse 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus not on anyone else including a saint

01:01:52

Mary or anything else next questioner First let me commend you both for a very invigorating agitating and informative debate

01:02:03

Thank you Knowing that when Jesus was on the cross and the thief said to him may ask who to whom are you directing the question both?

01:02:16

gentlemen Knowing that when Jesus was on the cross and the thief said to him remember me when you come into my kingdom and Mary was there and Jesus also said

01:02:34

What did he say now Eli Eli Lama Shabbat Annie my god my god, why have you forsaken me?

01:02:41

Mary was there he did not ask Mary to pray for him and I like to ask you both

01:02:50

What are your comments on that and my second part of the question instead of praying through Saints could we look at Saints as our?

01:02:57

mentors mr. Madrid I'll answer the second part first.

01:03:05

We certainly can look at the Saints as our mentors We should look at them as our mentors st Paul reminds us that we are urged to imitate the

01:03:12

Saints to reflect upon their their lives and and recognize God's Grace working in them and in that way certainly there are mentors.

01:03:22

That's the purpose behind Icons and images because the icons and images instruct the ignorant they show forth

01:03:28

The beauty of Christian life as we see it in st. Paul or st. Peter or the

01:03:33

Blessed Virgin Mary So yes, they can now at the foot of the cross. We have to remember what was taking place

01:03:40

This is the supreme act of sacrifice Christ Redeeming the world through his blood on the cross.

01:03:47

And so what's taking place? There is the repentant thief seeking

01:03:53

His salvation. He's not going to find salvation through Mary He's not going to find it through anyone else only through Christ So the only appropriate thing for us to expect there which is what we see is that he turns to Christ alone he is not looking to anyone else and I'm not sure if there was an another element to your question, but the

01:04:13

Foot of the cross all eyes are on Christ because everything that is taking place.

01:04:18

There is Christ centered It's it's it has nothing to do with Mary or anyone else.

01:04:23

It has to do with what Christ is doing on the cross Mr. White in answer the second part of the question if we use that term in a biblical sense

01:04:30

Obviously all of our mentors in the faith are saints because we're all saints in Christ.

01:04:36

There is no distinction as Rome makes and therefore That's the answer the second part as far as the first part.

01:04:42

It was very interesting that mr. Madrid just said That no one looks to Mary for salvation. It strikes me as very strange that The Roman Catholic Church has sainted and made a doctor of the church

01:04:54

Alphonsus de Liguri Who in his book the glories of Mary? repeats over and over and over and over again prayer after prayer after prayer after prayer where people do exactly that I Entrust my soul to you addressed to Mary if anyone looks to Mary they will not be released

01:05:13

They will not be lost. I ask any of you that book has gone through 800 editions in Many languages and the

01:05:20

Roman Catholic Church has not only Sainted and made the man a doctor of the church.

01:05:26

It has never once said that this book contains the Simple heresy that it does and so I would just ask you to take the things you hear tonight and go go find that book

01:05:39

I Would actually recommend it to you. It is absolutely positively amazing It truly shows the danger of this whole issue this evening and what happens when you abandon solo scriptura in favor of solo ecclesia next question good evening

01:06:01

I'm a Christian from coming from Romania. I Discovered the love of God under persecution and problems

01:06:08

I worship only God and Jesus Christ and he helped me in a thousand of situation

01:06:14

My question to my Catholic brothers is will I not go in heaven because I didn't worship

01:06:21

Holy Mary and Saints Or what do you have more than me worshipping worshipping them?

01:06:27

Thank you. Mr. Madrid. I can say That if you did worship

01:06:34

Mary and the Saints you would not go to heaven Because you are commanded not to worship anyone but God So, please let's lay that this bugaboo to rest that that somehow

01:06:45

Catholics worship Mary and the Saints We don't and nobody here is proposing that that you should or that we do. I Asked that you please hold your applause you'll have opportunity for that at the end to to continue with my thought

01:06:59

You will not go to hell for for being in a situation in which you did not know something was true and You are in Christ you love

01:07:10

Jesus you're you're a member of his mystical body certainly by virtue of your baptism and So there's no question in my mind that if by the time you end your life if God's grace has not illuminated your soul in such a way that you can see the truth of Certain aspects of Christianity that maybe you don't see right now

01:07:30

That no, you will not be damned to hell for that. Mr. White simply repeating over and over again

01:07:35

We do not worship Mary in light of the destruction of the Lottery a duly a distinction for which no answer has been given

01:07:41

Biblically on the part of my opponent this evening is not going to answer to the issue

01:07:46

The fact has been very clearly laid out and I would remind everyone of the infallible words the

01:07:52

Council of Florence Which said it firmly believes professes and proclaims that those not living within the

01:07:58

Catholic Church not only pagans But also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life will depart into everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock and that the

01:08:10

Unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it Are the sacraments the church of benefit for salvation and do fastings almsgiving and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service

01:08:22

Produce eternal reward and that no one whatever almsgiving he has practiced even if he has shed blood and for the name of Christ can be saved unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the

01:08:32

Catholic Church and quote Denzinger 714 next question

01:08:39

First of all, thank you both for a great debate This is like a two -part question addressable in in reference to the conversation with the dead to whom are you directing?

01:08:49

I'm both of them I would like to see how their traditions interpret these two passages that are in reference to the conversations with dead people in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus Such as a story of a conversation between Abraham and the rich man taking place in the after all both of these men are dead if only

01:09:07

God could hear what's in our heart, how is it that Abraham is able to hear the prayer of the rich man and The second part to that is back to the amount of terms of figuration

01:09:18

Jesus is seen speaking with most Moses and Elijah says Moses passed away in the Old Testament.

01:09:24

He's a prophet What what what type of conversation is taking between Moses who's dead and Jesus who is still alive and has yet to be crucified and resurrected as Jesus Preaching to Moses or is he asking for a prayer?

01:09:38

Mr. Madrid? I'm going to concentrate on the first question the issue of Luke 16

01:09:44

Lazarus and the rich man We just go back to the point. I was making earlier that certainly the rich man in Luke 16 was asking

01:09:53

Abraham for a He was asking him for his intercession that he would have his you would have the the poor man

01:10:00

Lazarus go back to warn his brothers and Abraham himself says that in that place the abode of the of the dead

01:10:08

Sheol there was a great gulf between where the rich man was and where Abraham and Lazarus were so there was certainly a

01:10:16

Distance however, we want to reckon that distance. It was certainly not they weren't near each other So there was some way in which the rich man communicated his intention to Abraham.

01:10:25

I don't know really how much We can can lean on that passage to show what we've been talking about here tonight, but it does show us certainly that There is a communication that can take place in ways that we don't understand you mentioned briefly that only

01:10:41

God knows our thoughts Well, it's true that God knows our thoughts But God permits us to know the secret thoughts of other people at certain times for example in Acts chapter 5 when

01:10:51

Ananias and Sapphira were Withholding property and pretending as if they were donating all of it to the church

01:10:57

Peter through the grace of God knew their secret thoughts and So it's really entirely biblical for us to recognize that if God chooses to permit it his saints in heaven

01:11:10

Can be aware of those things that are happening here on earth It's not because the Saints are doing it

01:11:16

God is doing it through them and and I want to put to rest one other thing that pertains to this

01:11:21

There is no argument that the Saints in heaven and the Saints on earth are saints We recognize that the

01:11:28

Bible says that all Christians are saints. So there's this there seems to be this odd Repetition of an argument that's a non -issue really because there's no question that we are

01:11:38

Saints on earth just as those in heaven are Mr. White. Well, the reason I've said that is because we have the concept of purgatory

01:11:45

A person is a saint in a technical sense because it doesn't have to go to purgatory because he has excess merit

01:11:50

I don't think that's an that's that's an issue at all and Hence, we have the specific canonization of Saints, which is even another category

01:11:58

But as to Luke 16, it specifically says the man cried out. It does not say he prayed to Abraham So how

01:12:04

Abraham would know this intentions of his prayer isn't relevant because the man is actually a crying out

01:12:09

It's not a matter of prayer But again this this whole issue Goes back to you know, we were talking about, you know, this passage of that passage.

01:12:19

I'm not hearing anything In response to looking at this and going well there's there's no worship going on in Luke chapter 16 or in any of these other passages and I don't remember the second half that Do you remember the second half of the question?

01:12:33

Okay, well that'll be the end of the first half if you have two -part questions only ask the first part

01:12:41

I Think we're the next the next question is here and please try to make your question in 30 seconds

01:12:50

All right Speaking the mic, please.

01:12:57

I'm sorry This is in regard to your fifth point you made during your dissertation about Images that you use to remind you of the

01:13:04

Saints men and and their virtue But I want to ask you what about a Roman 714 through 27 when st

01:13:10

Paul talks about being a slave to sin and that's live Sin lives inside him and the evil that he doesn't want to do he keeps doing.

01:13:18

Um, I don't think that we should please don't Present you. Is that a question? Okay. No problem. Yeah, okay another point in Scripture second one in Matthew 1917 when the rich person asked

01:13:30

Jesus What should he do that is good or what is good and Jesus tells him that that no one is good with God and if you want eternal life that you should obey his commandments and One of the commandments the very first commandment.

01:13:43

I don't know. Maybe we could read it for the benefit of everybody. That's sufficient. Mr Madrid, okay I honestly totally lost track of what the first part of the question was

01:13:51

Romans 714 through 27 okay, the The fifth point in my talk actually had nothing to do with images the fifth point had to do with imitating the

01:14:01

Saints and my my emphasis on images in with regard to Imitating the

01:14:08

Saints was only that when we see the Saints portrayed in in art

01:14:13

Let's say an icon or a statue or something like that. It recalls to our mind That that person's holiness and we are told by Scripture to imitate them

01:14:22

Now if anything including a statue or an image of a saint were to become an idol Then we'd be falling into grievous sin and that's forbidden by Scripture by the church so we we have to make this distinction between being educated and edified by these icons versus Becoming superstitious and falling into that kind of idolatry

01:14:44

You mentioned no one is good Except God well, that's true in certainly in the ultimate sense no one is good except God, but we are told in Luke chapter 1 verse 6 that that Zechariah and Elizabeth the mother and father of John the

01:15:02

Baptist It says both were righteous in the eyes of God observing all the commandments and in ordinances of the law of the

01:15:09

Lord blamelessly So the Saints have a share in the goodness of God not through their own merits

01:15:15

But because they are participating in the the life of God himself

01:15:21

That's where their goodness comes from and so when we honor them We are really as st. Augustine said over and over again.

01:15:27

We are honoring God Through his creatures. Mr. White Well, the only comment

01:15:33

I would make is that the Bible actually says that we are to imitate Christ and Paul says imitate me as He imitates

01:15:40

Christ. I Think what the question was asking was well since there's this abiding sin

01:15:46

Then how can that you know, would that imitation not lead us astray? again, the primary issue is that we imitate that which the

01:15:55

Word of God directs us to not which the words of men direct us to and When we do so we will have a safe guide in everything that we do

01:16:02

There are so many incidences in church history when the Pope for example gave indulgences the people who visited the

01:16:10

The house at Loreto That was believed to have been carried there from Nazareth by angels in the 13th century

01:16:18

That kind of thing Imitate that no because it's so far removed from the

01:16:24

Bible. We need to have that objective standard and thank God we do in the Bible. I Remind you that a question is a reasonably brief statement asking for information the next question, all right, this is one coherent question

01:16:40

I have a couple scriptures because he mentioned that there was no scripture in the Bible saying that there's no difference between Me on earth and in heaven or a saint and I you know,

01:16:52

I what is your question, please? I'm getting to my question You have a few seconds to do it in the

01:16:57

Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ in for in in 2nd

01:17:04

Corinthians chapter 5 and Also going right along with that it says in Philippians, what is your question, please?

01:17:11

My question is this? Mike my question is this he says that there are no scriptures Now there are scriptures in the

01:17:19

Bible. Is that the question? Is that like me to answer that? I would like to I would like to mention a couple scriptures.

01:17:24

No, sir You have you have the opportunity to ask a question next question. I got a question then Philippians chapter 1

01:17:30

Paul says it's more needful to abide with you to be to but but you know If I die and go to be with heaven in heaven, then

01:17:38

I'm gonna be with the Lord, but it's more needful to abide That's not a question. I'm sorry the next questioner, please

01:17:46

Miss Kennedy care to make a comment I'll just make a brief comment on that and I appreciate your effort to ask the question

01:17:52

Neither first 2nd Corinthians 5 nor Philippians 1 21 through 23 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the

01:17:59

Lord st. Paul in both passages says I would rather be absent from the body and present with the

01:18:05

Lord So it's an entirely different context here. He's yearning for union with God He's not saying that by the very fact that we are absent from the body that we are therefore present with the

01:18:16

Lord And honestly, I just sort of I lost track of what the theme of the question was. Mr.

01:18:21

White. Do you have a comment? I'm not sure if what was just being said Is maybe an attempt to defend something in regards to purgatory,

01:18:30

I don't know but I Think what was being asked? Is if the passage is talking about the fact that it is

01:18:40

Paul was saying it is better for him to remain here The argument has been made earlier in this debate.

01:18:45

Well Won't we do much more as perfected saints in heaven and that evidently is not what the

01:18:52

Apostle Paul? Understood when he said it would be more needful for me to remain with you

01:18:59

That he recognized that there was a need of ministry And I think if we were to follow the argumentation that has been used this evening out to its logical conclusion

01:19:07

That wouldn't be the case for any of us all of us could do better if we got to heaven immediately Then we're doing now because we'd be perfected and our prayers would be more powerful and everything else

01:19:16

I as I obviously not the intention of the the Apostle we have time for one more brief question

01:19:24

This in mainly at mr. Madrid. I like your perhaps. Dr. Weiss comment. Somebody mentioned necromancy before I'd like to follow up on that with a practical question about that Is there any possibility with somebody praying to the departed and maybe even sometimes receiving a vision apparition?

01:19:40

That they could fall into an occultic practice or do you believe if they follow the Roman Catholic? Endorsement that that could not happen or should we take that prohibition against idolatry and against necromancy?

01:19:50

Seriously as they did today in the Old Testament days and we should today show mr. Madrid the answer to the question is yes

01:19:57

There is always a danger of human beings falling prey to the temptation to idolatry

01:20:02

It's true of us as it was true of the Israelites in Exodus chapter 20 so any

01:20:08

Catholic who is tending in the direction of either superstition or Viewing Images or icons as talismans or anything like that They are falling into a sin and should be rebuked and brought back out of that sinful way

01:20:23

There is there's no question about that the thing the the thing that you mentioned at the end though I think is the key to it and that is if people follow the teaching of the

01:20:32

Roman Catholic Church Will they fall into idolatry and I would give a hearty? No, and I would refer you to the catechism in which the the church sets out

01:20:41

The guidelines that if you are engaged in this that or the other this is idolatry if you are recognizing the the appropriate place in Christian life for images of the

01:20:53

Saints and you reverence them not in the sense that Jim was talking about earlier offering service or Worship to that's not what we're talking here about here at all that No, if you follow those guidelines, then you will not fall into idolatry.

01:21:08

Mr. White. I think that a brief look at Brazil, Mexico, Spain is

01:21:16

Santa Ria now is very good indication that Since the

01:21:21

Lottery of Julia distinction does not exist and since no one can live with it because it doesn't exist Since there we know in our heart of hearts that when you see a person

01:21:30

Bowing before a statue with beads in their hands lighting candles rocking back and forth that that is a religious

01:21:37

Context and that is worship give all the intention words you want Remember Uzzah since that distinction that has found the

01:21:46

Bible has been overthrown Through the rejection of solo scripture and the embracing of the authority of Rome.

01:21:52

You cannot avoid but fall into those very practices we are to be done the entire question and answer time by 1145 and according to my watch we have about 40 seconds left