Should Christian Men Make Andrew Tate Their Role Model?

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. This is a Trail Talk edition. Some of you enjoy those, you like seeing the scenery, so I wanted to do one, because I haven't done one in a while, and I haven't actually been out walking by myself in a while, but today is a nice day, meaning it's above 35 degrees, I suppose.

Probably like 36.

That's a nice day this week.

The Value of Outdoor Solitude and Physical Goals

This is gonna be the warmest day. And it's obviously January in the Catskill Mountains in upstate New York, and this is what it looks like. It was actually snowing a little bit earlier, and it's wonderful.

It's just, my body's acclimated, so I don't even have gloves on right now. I mean, it is, it just feels almost balmy for me. But the reason I do this is because not only is it pretty and it's nice to keep in shape, but I am pursuing, securing for myself a patch.

It's not really the patch I'm after, it's just maybe the bragging rights, I don't know. It's a goal, it's a recognition that you get when you climb or bushwhack or walk, hike the 35 peaks, over 3 ,500 peak in the Catskill Mountain Range.

And then when you do that, you enter a club. Now, I'm part of the club, because I did this years ago, and you go to a dinner and they call your name and you get a little patch, or I don't think they give me a patch, they give me like a piece of paper and then I can buy a patch myself if I want one.

I don't think I ever actually bought one, but if you do all of those peaks again in the winter, which is what I'm doing right now, you get another patch and you get to go to the dinner again and say, hey, I did all of those peaks again in the winter.

And I think it's important for men to have goals. Obviously, I have other aspirations that are maybe more important in some ways, but I think this is a fun one. And it's just physically, it's good for me.

It's mentally good. Some of the best times I've ever had in prayer or thinking about life issues, like big life issues have been in the woods, hiking like this. And it's one of the reasons I actually wrote a whole chapter in my forthcoming book, which the working title is Against the Waves, Restoring Christian Order in a Liberal Age.

It's because I have so much appreciation for the outdoors. And I think that we need to learn to appreciate nature again. Too many of us are sedentary, we're on our devices sitting there. And obviously, I don't have any problem with people using podcasts and watching videos.

I wouldn't be making this if I thought that, but I think that we consume way too much media and we need to produce more and we need to be in solitude more and being in nature helps that. So anyway, all that to say, go take a walk somewhere or a hike or get out there.

Why Andrew Tate Is a Bad Role Model for Christian Men

What I wanted to talk about in this video, and this is a good segue because we're gonna talk about masculinity is Andrew Tate. And I want to talk about specifically this controversy and it seems to bubble up every now and then as to whether he should be platformed in American conservative media and really, I think a more important question and one that's not being asked is, ought men in the United States, ought they to, or should they, that's a better way to say it, should they make someone like Andrew Tate their role model and their mentor when it comes to questions that men ask, how to treat women, how to take responsibility, what kind of goals to have?

I mean, Andrew Tate is good, as far as I know, at least, on saying that you should perfect yourself, you should be a better person, you should set physical goals, you should work out, right? Unfortunately though, Andrew Tate's also someone who's given very bad advice sometimes on how to treat women and even some of the things that he even talks about, which are shameful to talk about, can only come from, in my opinion, a very pornographic mind.

Things like, you know, I will, maybe I will fool a woman into thinking that she's going to have a sexual relationship with me and then I'll just beat her up and I'll, you know, even getting vivid as far as how he wants to do it, how he will do it.

I mean, it's just weird to describe that and let's, you know, some of you might say it's not so much weird as it is evil, but it is weird too to broadcast something like that to the world because generally those are the kinds of things if you have an idea that is very, I was gonna say unpopular, but maybe that's a popular idea now.

If you have an idea that's gonna hurt you and it makes you look bad and people are gonna use it against you, you try not to share it unless you think it's a stand for righteousness or something. Andrew Tate just pops off and he's had a history of doing this for a while and maybe that's why people like him because they think it's authentic and that kind of thing, but he'll pop off about some of the most perverted things he's got going on in his mind.

And there's a few obvious things that people are pointing out. One is that he's a Muslim. So, you know, why should Christians, Christian conservatives in America be promoting him? The other thing, he's not an American.

I think his mom is from the United States, if I'm not mistaken, but he wasn't raised here and he's in another country and it's just the circumstances he's in or something. He's in like a bunker in Europe.

I don't even remember what country he's in, but it's just, he's outside of some of the challenges that we have. And so, I mean, I've seen people say that and, you know, the first thing I mentioned about him saying some really, frankly, evil stuff.

Those are the reasons you shouldn't platform him. Okay, that's reason enough, I get it. But there's something else going on that I really, really think should not be ignored. And that is that we shouldn't probably have role models or at least, let me rephrase this.

Our primary role models in life and the people that we get the most advice from about masculinity, being a man, all of that, that probably shouldn't be coming through screens. And I'm including myself in this.

You shouldn't be mediating all your advice for life and your concept of what it means to be a man through a screen. Let me illustrate and fine tune this for you. I'll use myself as the example because I've seen guys online saying, hey, we have all these new Christian right, masculine leaders that should be platformed and they're better than Andrew Tate.

I think that's actually a valid point. And there's guys, I've seen William Wolf saying things like, look, it's because of the failure of Christian leaders that guys like Andrew Tate are even attractive to young Zoomer boys and men and that kind of thing.

I get that and that's true too. But what should the goal or what should the template be for what a mentor, what a masculine example, what someone who can really give you good advice for your life, what should that look like?

Obviously Christ, but I'm talking about you and your personal life. If it's all mediated through screens, if we just produce a Christian Andrew Tate, he's not gonna say all the terrible things Andrew Tate says, but still very masculine, right?

And just pops off on things and when they're offensive, but they're offensive because they're true and they're in the Bible or something. If we just produce that, I think we'd still.

Have a big problem.

The Illusion of Proximity Through Media

And it reminds me of what Kruptas said on a podcast about technology. That once you have technology, that technology makes an impact. It could be a negative impact, whether you use the technology for good or bad.

Obviously, I think it's okay to use technology for your own betterment. I wouldn't be making this podcast if I didn't think that. But consider with me, whether or not you actually know me. You might be listening, you might be hundreds of miles away, you might be thousands of miles away.

Do you know John Harris? You think, well, I've consumed hundreds of hours of John Harris. If you've really watched this podcast or listened for a while, okay.

So you do know something,.

But you are deceived. And I don't mean deceived in the sense that you don't know this, but you have the impression that you can be very close to me because I'm holding my phone six inches from my head.

And you're holding your phone six inches from your head.

So from your perspective,.

I'm about a foot away from you, right? You can see the details of my face because of the high quality video. You can hear me very clearly because of the good quality microphone. It gives it a sense, an illusion almost of proximity.

And it's really not, you're not very proximate. You could be miles and miles away and never have met me in real life, right? And someone who knows me even on a more superficial level, but actually sees me in group settings, sees how I treat other people, knows what kind of things I consume my time with, knows when I'm relaxed, what I might say, and sees me with my wife and my child and knows my family, knows who my friends are.

Someone who sees me in actual intimate settings is going to know a more important side of me than someone who is watching this video right now. And I think that is very, very important and we need to think about it more.

Why Christians Need Real-Life Mentors, Not Just Online Advice

It's fine and it's good to get advice from people online. I wouldn't make this podcast, and I've said it like three times, I wouldn't make this podcast if I didn't think that. But I should not be your primary role model or your primary outlet where you get advice on being a good man.

I think you can certainly take advice, but it's like reading a book,.

Except it's worse in some way.

It's like reading a book where you get good principles and things like that. Those are great. And even the Bible is a book, right? So obviously that isn't necessary. But Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ.

The people that you see who look like me, who do what I'm doing, follow them. You need actual examples too. And there's a deception with media or an opportunity for deception that doesn't exist with books.

Because with media, like I said, you are having all these other senses somewhat aroused to think that you are in my presence when you're not. And there's an intimacy and a proximity that just you don't actually have, but the technology makes you think that you do have it, or it can possibly make you think that.

You obviously know that you're not with me, right? I think what's happening is there's a lot of guys who do not have role models or do not have role models they like. And this would include Christian guys in the church.

And yeah, it is partially the fault of people in leadership who don't act like leaders.

I get all that.

And instead of really trying hard to find some good mentors out there, some good leaders, it is easier to go online. And it is like a lot of other things though. It's like video games. It's even like pornography to an extent.

If you cross the line of thinking you're having an experience that you're not actually having. And maybe this is just John's opinion I do know guys who have been into Andrew Tate, okay? They've sent me videos.

And so this has been going on over the last few years. I do think that some of his followers and maybe a good chunk are treating him in the way I just described and going to him. And he is honestly, he is like an adolescent dream.

He's like James Bond, right? He's got the nice cars.

He's rich.

He's jacked. He gets the girls, right? That's the perception at least he gives. But guess what you're not seeing? I don't know because I don't see it.

Neither do you.

That's part of the problem. He may be, I remember on Christmas, he posted this thing like it's Christmas and he's working out by himself.

Well, that's depressing. Does he even have any kids?

I don't know. But what's his life actually like?

What moments do you not see?

Are there moments of vulnerability and depression and all these other things that are part of the human experience that maybe would flesh out who he really is? Is he an actual happy person? Is he a miserable person?

You probably don't know the answers to all these things because all you see is what he wants you to see. And that's the danger. He's gonna give you advice. But what, and the evidence is he's got these cars and all these pleasurable pursuits that he can enjoy.

What's his life actually like? And where is it leading? What's his life gonna be like in 10, 20 years? If it's based upon this decadent lifestyle, it's not going in anywhere good. And if you follow his path, you're not going anywhere good.

So that's the danger, I think. And believe me, I know more than many people what it is like to try to find mentors and to come up short. That's been a pursuit in various places I've been for years and I've seen much compromise and I've gone through much disappointment.

And I don't think my standards are incredibly high, so I get it. I've thought before maybe the last place I should look is Christian institutions, especially seminaries. But one of the things I've realized is that God does have people around.

And like, even in contexts where you think the natural leader, the person that's up there who's functioning in the capacity of someone who should be the masculine role model, but isn't. Even in those contexts, there's usually masculine people.

They may be in the congregation.

They may be somewhere else. I remember there was a contractor I met at Southeastern and that was the seminary I went to. And let's just say Southeastern was lacking in my opinion as far as masculine role models.

And there was this contractor there and I got to talking to him one day. And I just remember so many things about him. I could pick them up actually fairly quickly even, were so different than the managerial class that ran the seminary.

And I just thought, I'd love to hang out with this guy. I wanna know what this guy thinks about things. This guy's actually brave based on the conversation we were having and even what he was willing to put on the back of his truck.

I remember this guy's kind of brave. This guy's, he's a hard worker. He's common, he's got common sense. He's not tiptoeing around everything. Man, I like this guy. And honestly, maybe it was my mistake that I was looking in the wrong places for the kind of masculine role model that I should have been looking for in the pews.

I'm not saying that's the way it should ideally work, but that's just reality in some places.

Sometimes maybe you gotta move.

You gotta try to find somewhere,.

Pray about it. Obviously,.

But finds another church, another region that has more of these role models. Obviously keep using North Carolina. I don't have to do that. But when I was down there for seminary, I went to so many churches trying to find a good one.

And it's just, there was definitely a reward system going on where the seminary very much affected who got into leadership in churches and that kind of thing. And I think it did kind of spoil the area, to be quite honest, if you were a Southern Baptist at least.

Maybe some people are mad that I say that, but that was my experience. That may not be the experience. I know it's not everywhere. So don't universalize your setting and think it's like this everywhere because in my town, it's like this.

May not be. But the first thing is to obviously pray about it. And then I would say this, it's also good to go to books to get advice, especially from men who have died and so they finished well. And it's not like Steve Lawson where things look okay, but then there's only one side he's given.

And then you find out he is not gonna finish well because he wasn't doing well for years. Men who have finished well, whose life has been observed, who give advice, and you don't get the sense when you're reading them that they're somehow distant from, or they're somehow, sorry, they're somehow really close and like they're a buddy with you.

Because you know they're not.

They're not there.

They're actually dead.

But you're, I think, forced to take their advice on its own merits and not just be attracted to the personality and that kind of thing. And that's the danger of someone like Andrew Tate. You could be just attracted to superficial things.

You could have even adolescent standards that are subverting your judgment and making you think like this guy is somehow close to you when he's not. And if there's anything young men need or want, right now I think it's closeness, it's proximity.

It's someone who will actually put their hand on their shoulder and be with them through the tough stuff. And if they don't feel like they're getting it, they will turn to an Andrew Tate, perhaps. But I'm just asking people who might be in that vein to suppress that urge and to consider some of the things that I'm telling you.

There's obviously good reasons.

That conservative organizations shouldn't promote Tate, but I think we have to ask a deeper question about where masculine role models and mentorship should be coming through. And I'll say this one last thing.

Someone said, hey, look, we need role models that are distant from us. I think that's true. Leaders in the political sphere, in the military sphere, all kinds of different areas, business. We need leaders, there's no doubt.

And you don't need to know everything about them to have some respect. I'm saying, when it comes to those who you're getting intimate advice for your life about, like how do you navigate a certain situation with a girl?

How can you be a good father?

That kind of thing. You want primarily there to be people that actually know your situation, are close in reality, and not a fake mediated screen, through a fake mediated screen. So that's the trail talk today.

Coming up to the top of this hill. I haven't even reached the trail yet. I'm still walking on the road. I know some of you don't think that's the road. That's the road. It's just not plowed in the winter, so I didn't wanna drive it.

If I get stuck up here, there's no cell phone reception.

All right, well, God bless.

Hopefully I live.

And we'll have another podcast. Bye now.