Andrew Rappaport Jewish Christian vs Zadok Limmuwd Yehoshua Hebrew Israelite debate

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starting okay we're live Tom okay today's debate topic will be

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Deuteronomy 2868 does it refer to the African slave trade this is a such an important debate topic because Deuteronomy 2868 is the locus classicus text for Hebrews life that they use on the streets on Facebook on YouTube make the case that let

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Latinos Native Americans and African Americans are the real Israelites of the Bible and today debate the rules will be simple be respectful polite don't engage in ad hominem name -calling and and don't misrepresent each other's positions so both debaters today completely disagree on the interpretation of Deuteronomy 2868 we have

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Zadok who's going to take the affirmative saying Deuteronomy 2868 actually talks about the

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African slave trade and he's an Hebrew Israelite and we also have

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Andrew Rappaport who's going to take the negative position which is going to refute that Deuteronomy 2868 refers to the

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African slave trade Andrew Rappaport is a founder and former senior founder and president of Friday for eternity ministries he's also former senior pastor of a

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Chinese American Bible Church he established the fire conferences and equips churches and evangelism and training he is instructor of striving for eternity

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Academy an online school that teaches hermeneutics and systematic theology he's also an author of what do they believe which is a systematic theology of major Western religion and he also has a book a systematic theology what do we believe and also a podcast for the

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Rappaport which he that's his contemporary topics like Hebrew Israelitism and different contemporary topics in Christianity so today's outline of the debate will be they're going to be an opening statement which is going to be 15 minutes from both opponents rebuttals 10 minutes pause examination 15 minutes closing 10 minutes

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Zadak is going to take the affirmative position that Deuteronomy 2868 refers to the

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African slave trade so I'll let you introduce yourself Zadak all right a peace and blessings family

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I can hear me well yep okay all right first of all

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I'd like to give all honor and glory to the most high God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the father of all who in these last days have revealed unto us more of his plan of salvation through Jesus to Christ my name is

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Zadak Ben Israel I am an assistant Bible teacher at the Knesset of Jesus or the

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Knesset Yeshua located here in Buffalo New York I've been a student of scripture for about roughly 24 years

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I've been baptized for the last 19 years and I have been an assistant teacher in the scriptures for about the last 14 years so that's kind of brief of my history and for anyone who would like to get in touch with me whether it's an affirmative or if it's against anything you hear tonight please feel free to hit me up on Facebook you can find me and you can hit me on Twitter and Instagram as well and hopefully there might be a description or something if you know attached to this debate somehow

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I'm not sure first of all I want to thank the brethren this is my first time actually speaking with or even hearing of our

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Andrew so I appreciate you allowing me to come on to your platform and have this and be a part of this discussion tonight um this was actually sparked by my homie

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Eric it's probably one of my first times even seeing Eric live even though we've been corresponding through the internet for the last couple years now yeah salute to my brother

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Ant who's with me tonight and I forget the name but thank you for putting your time in here as well so I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna get into the little bit that I can present um first of all

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I just want to say for the record I am NOT here to make an overall claim on what you may hear from every

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Hebrew Israelite just as as a Christian I'm not here to give you a dissertation on what every

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Christian believes those of us who claim to be followers of Christ we don't all agree on everything just as to Calvinists and Armenians but what

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I will do is I will put out here to you what I understand as far as Deuteronomy chapter 28 verse 68 in particular but also other texts coupled with it the

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Bible tells us to let every matter be established by two or more witnesses even though that was something that was done when people were put to death in the

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Bible Paul uses it in his letter his second letter to the Corinthians when he said this is my third time writing unto you and as it is written let every word be established by two or more witnesses so what

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I'm going to do I'm gonna do what the scripture says we're gonna go line upon line here a little there a little line upon line idea upon idea and let's see what we can find now for some in the

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Hebrew Israelite community maybe they do harp on Deuteronomy 28 68 in particular being the one verse that somehow puts a stamp on proving that the

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TAST or the trans Atlantic slave trade is fulfilled solely due through Deuteronomy 28 and 68 but that is not fully my position while I do believe it applies

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I believe that all of Deuteronomy 28 all the curses are found in the

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Israelite people and that the curses are not time -specific but the curses are cyclical what do

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I mean by that if the Bible poses something it will answer something and what's interesting is you only have this one text in Deuteronomy where in specificity it names

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Egypt and it talks about Israelites being put in ships and being sold off and wherever they're being took into they won't be able to redeem themselves and no man shall buy them now what

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I want to do here is this I want to actually go to Deuteronomy chapter 28 right quick let's go there

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Deuteronomy chapter 28 and when we get there I want to read I want to start at verse 60

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Oh 63 and it shall come to pass that as the

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Lord have rejoiced over you to do good and I'm reading out of the King James Version for those who are reading along and to multiply you so the

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Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and to bring you to naught and you shall be plucked off the land whether thou goest to possess it and the

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Lord shall scatter thee among all people from one end of the earth even unto the other now

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I'm gonna start there because the thing is is that when you get to the end of the chapter you read about the ships and you read about Egypt but the curses don't start and end with as far as Israel being scattered don't start and end with 68 and not all

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Israelites have been scattered in ships by the way some Israelites just were walked over land for long miles to places as well but here the

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Lord lets you know that he shall scatter you among all people now some of this is going to happen walking beasts of burden and some of it happened through ships as well and look at this and among these nations you shall find a wheeze neither shout a soul of your foot have rest but the

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Lord shall give thee their trembling heart and failing of eyes and sorrow of mind so we're going to keep going down and the

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Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships by the way whereof I spake unto thee thou shall see it no more again and there you shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen and no man shall buy you so with this being said what

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I want to do is I want to actually back up right quick and I want to go over to where do

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I want to go Oh chapter 6 that's where I want to go just back up to Deuteronomy chapter 6 right quick and I want to establish an idea and a thought about Egypt Deuteronomy where we had six yep here it says then beware lest I'll forget the

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Lord which brought the fourth out of the land of Egypt from the house of bondage now what

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I'm going to purport to you is that in a community that I come from and in many other places as well

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Egypt in the scripture just like Sodom in the scripture and just like Babylon and the scripture takes on more than the geographic locations it doesn't dismiss the geographic locations but it does take on more we find in the book of Revelation that city which is spiritually called

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Sodom and Egypt but we also find a place that is actually called

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Babylon the great which isn't literally the Babylon of the scripture as far as the geographic location but yet it itself is called

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Babylon yet we also find a city that is also called Sodom and is also called

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Egypt we also find in the book of Ezekiel that God called

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Israel and Judah when they were separated and he was punishing them separately

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Judah to be punished last of course he actually called them Sodom and your sister

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Gomorrah he actually called his people Sodom and Gomorrah why because he wasn't always referring to the geographic location now for those of you who would actually speak against this this idea that in the scripture it has it said

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Egypt so it has to literally be Egypt and couldn't possibly be anything else

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I want to turn you on to something all of our reasoning and understanding of text isn't necessarily just found in the

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Bible but it is the Holy Spirit in time which reveals other things and whether all men accept it or not that's fine but yet you have to put out there what you have so for instance

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I'll give you an example in the book of Malachi it is it says it just like this and so what do we do with it it says the

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Lord shall send unto you before the great and terrible day of the Lord Elijah the

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Prophet as a matter of fact I want to just go there right quick I want to read this to you so when someone says what the

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Bible literally has to say there look you're gonna have to apply this all the way across the board now

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Jesus to Christ later on centuries later gives a revelation on what

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Malachi meant and what I'm telling you is that that type of revelation which is given by the

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Holy Spirit which Yeshua of course was totally engulfed in and filled with that is what is on the church as well and on the believers of the church that find themselves all over the earth right in the book of Malachi chapter 4 verse 5 behold

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I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming and great and dreadful day of the

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Lord now John the Baptist or Yohanan the Immerser was actually asked straight to his face by the

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Pharisees and by the Levites and the causal the Sanhedrin of Israel are you the

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Christ are you the Mashiach he said to them no I am NOT they asked

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John the Baptist are you Elijah he said no

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I am NOT they said who do who are you then he said I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness blah blah blah blah blah now gets killed

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Jesus after the death of John says if you will receive it the preaching of John was

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Elijah to come and we know that his mother Elizabeth prophesied when he was a child that he would go forth in a power and spirit of Elijah but notice how according to the literal text that we just read the people were looking for the literal man

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Elijah to show up because in Malachi 4 and 5 it says I will send you

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Elijah the Prophet when they went to John the Baptist and said are you G are you the Christ basically the son of David we waiting for no are you

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Elijah no John wasn't lying but the people were looking for this literal thing in Christ actually shows something deeper it was the spirit that was in that was in John and the preaching that came out of him to prepare the way for Yeshua was the

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Elijah spoken of in Malachi 4 now I say unto you is

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Egypt and Deuteronomy 28 and 68 literal Egypt I'm gonna say unto you yes and I'm also gonna say unto you much more

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I'm gonna read this right quick I'm gonna go over here I'm gonna go over here right quick and I'm gonna read you something and this might surprise some people because I don't have a reason to hide from any information that's out there for those of you who actually know me some of you guys know we've been teaching on this stuff before there was a before you know

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YouTube and all of that stuff became popular check this out I'm gonna quote you out of what's known as a the

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Targum Yahunathan Ben Uzziel which some people just simply called the Targum Jonathan right it says in Hashem will exile you back to Egypt and ships by the way of the

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Red Sea that you once crossed and concerning which I said you shall not see it again and there you will be sold and to serve a tool to your enemies for large sums of money as craftsmen and afterwards you will be sold cheaply as slaves and maidservants until you will be cheapened and try to sell yourselves for nothing and no one will take you now in the

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Targum Yahunathan Ben Uzziel this is how Deuteronomy 28 and 68 is read check this out um

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Josephus actually records in the Jewish wars he actually in book 12

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I believe or 11 it says because soldiers were now growing weary of bloodshed and survivors appear constantly

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Caesar orders to kill only those who offered our resistance and to take alive all the rest the troops in addition to those covered by their orders slaughtered the aged and the infirmed people of their prime who might be useful were herded into the temple area and shut up in the court of women so now what happens here

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I'm skip down it says of the rest pardon I'm sorry all those who had taken part in this addition and the brigandage he executed he picked out the tallest and handsomest of the lot and reserved them for the triumph what is the triumph the triumph is the procession back to Rome where they took a whole bunch of Hebrews literally into Italy into the capital city

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Rome and paraded them through the streets with furniture from the temple it says of the rest those who were over 17 he put in chains and sent to hard labor in Egypt while great numbers were presented by Titus to the provinces to perish in the theaters by sword or by wild beasts those under 17 were sold now many will point to this and say see that alone is

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Deuteronomy 2868 well I would say this first of all it would be the only curse that happened literally to the tribe of Judah with a little bit of Benjamin with them and not the rest of the tribes because every other curse in Deuteronomy 28 engulfs every single tribe no tribe escaped suffering every part of the punishments so while the

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Jews in particular while this happened to them after 70 I will tell you that there is more that happened to the

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Israelites during the Assyrian captivity and there are other things written in history on what happened to Israelites even in the

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Middle Ages and on so with that being said I just want to quote one I'm sorry a moderator how much time do

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I have left you have two minutes two minutes okay thanks I want to go here right quick because there's so much information guys of course we can't get it all out in time but I do want to um

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I'll give you a quote from very world renowned German theologian um Ernest Hichtenberg now for those of you who want to know who this guy is

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Hichtenberg is a big 19th century Protestant theologian and exegetist and his writings of the what is it called

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I think it's called the commentary on the Psalms a lot of people who are in seminary and stuff they know about this he's quoted in many

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Bible commentaries the people who translated the Calvin John the count the commentaries of John Calvin quote this guy as well

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I'm just gonna quote this to you out of the pulpit Bible commentary other people say it was just Egypt right literally

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I'm just gonna quote it uh what they say about Hichtenberg Oh Hichtenberg actually says that while he sees

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Egypt that it also may point to a type of future oppressor so Hichtenberg in his commentary actually says

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Egypt not disagreeing with his counterparts but saying he saw more there now this is a

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German Protestant world -renowned theologian of the 19th century I'm just Zadok who some people you know may not take that seriously at all so all

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I want to say to you is is that Egypt represents more to the

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Israelite people than just the land but it also is synonymous with bondage just like Sodom is with debauchery and Babylon is with confusion and abomination as well so I'll stop there for now and I know that I actually get a rebuttal time so thank you for all listening to my opening statement okay time now

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Andrew will give the his opening statement 15 minutes all right well thank thanks

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Tom for for moderating this Zadok I really appreciate you coming on and us being

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I'll have this discussion I hope that it is educational to everyone who watches and I'm gonna apologize up front for my voice if I start coughing but so taking a look at this we're looking at the key passage

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Deuteronomy 28 68 to see where this is referring to the

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African slave trade I'm gonna take the position it does not now I want to apply the rules that we use to interpret language to examine the question because he does bring up the question of and we'll get to in rebuttal but is

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Egypt actually Egypt well if we look at the full context one of the things we always have to do is read something within its context and so what we have in there is that we have a bunch of prophecies all of which had been fulfilled during the times of the

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Kings we have the the plagues we have the the even the the the famines that were so to the point where women were eating their own young we have that all documented in in scripture where we see these these famines and all the stuff that had been fulfilled now as we examine the verse and I too and for folks who may not be aware some some

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Christians may not be aware that many if not all of the Hebrew Israelites and I'm gonna refrain there's several people refer to them refer to the group as black

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Hebrew Israelites I think that was a name that was was used early on they many of them do not use that and so I will refer as Hebrew Israelites and that's referring to with that you'll see that they will often use the

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King James so as such I will use the King James as well as we read this text when we look at this and the

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Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again now the question of is

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Egypt going to be literal well the way to answer that I will agree with Zadok there are times when the word

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Egypt can refer to bondage that we can agree the question is does that apply here is there anything within this text that says that this should be taking literally or figuratively so when you have scripture when you have any language you have clear times where things should be literal or figurative that's what we're examining the question here is or is this passage literal or figurative here it says that they're going to bring back to Egypt again well where was it that they were in bondage the first time that was literal

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Egypt so to return to there again would make more sense to say they're returning to the literal

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Egypt now how is it described they're going to return again with ships I don't see anybody in these debates and debating these issues that question whether the word ships should be literal so I think we all agree there so we and the

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Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships by the way whereof

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I spake unto thee thou shalt see it no more again and there you shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen or bondwomen and no man shall buy you so what you see here is that the bondage is already mentioned there's no need for Egypt to refer to bondage when bondage is already mentioned therefore it there wouldn't be any kind of literary purpose for using

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Egypt to refer to bondage when it already mentions it now the really interesting thing with this and I think this is the one key that has to be understood is that this slavery was slavery where they put themselves into slavery they were sold and no one bought them that's not the

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African slave trade the African slave trade people were kidnapped they were abducted out of their homes out of their lands taken by sea and sold as slave there was a buyer so there is no way this could refer to the

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African slave trade now the way that some may argue I don't know if Zadok will so I'm not gonna presume that but the way some will argue is that that is figurative and not literal now if Egypt is figurative if the buying and selling of slaves is figurative if all that is figurative then we have to assume that the ships are also figurative there's nothing in the text to say that the one word is literal and everything else is figurative in a text like this is either gonna all be figurative which doesn't work with the rest of the context of the chapter which is all literal and was literally fulfilled

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I would argue this this verse was also literally fulfilled in history there were two in history there was the northern and the southern tribes of Israel the northern ten tribes had gone into captivity when the

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Syrians came in the Syrians had taken the northern tribes away and put other people in their place and then basically there were many of the

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Israelites who fled where did they flee to well they fled to a place called Egypt we also know that during the

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Babylonian captivity there was a large number of the Jewish population who fled the three captivities that occurred in Babylon there were three invasions where they took captives away during those invasions many of the

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Israelites of the time had fled to Egypt and there was a growing population that was within Egypt of Israelites they were there and we see that they recorded they were we can see the differences where there was things like the

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Talmud there's a Egyptian Talmud and a Babylonian Talmud which was the representations of two groups of people where the

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Israelite communities were so I think the clearest thing to see is that when at a time unlike our time where people can go and get other jobs here the only way for people to be able to make a living and keep themselves alive would be to be a slave if they can't find work this is exactly what we see in a parable that Christ gave when he talks about a man who wants his father's inheritance he squanders his inheritance he ends up selling himself as a slave to a pig owner and says oh you know what my father took better care of me than this guy let me go sell myself as a slave over to him and so that is what would end up happening the slavery in that day in the in the

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Old Testament was different very different than the slavery of the that we'd end up seeing in the

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African slave trade and elsewhere in the world because in the scriptures the slavery mentioned there there's there they get paid a half day's wage it was an employment system and so these

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Jews would have gone to Egypt and to stay alive would have sold themselves as slaves so no one would have bought them they would have put themselves into a slavery into a work system so that they can keep themselves alive and so what you end up seeing is that this is very easy to understand when we look at this that this is on that did foot was fulfilled in history now the argument that just because Egypt is connected by land to Israel to the land of Israel that they must have come by land would be a logical fallacy it is not the only way that people get to Egypt some do go by sea and so it is not something you can say well the only slave trade that ever occurred by ships was the

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African slave trade that would not be a valid argument because we do know that Egypt did have people that came in by ship and we do know that there were many

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Israelites that fled the to the northern and southern invasions and fled to the literal place of Egypt now if you want to argue that Egypt the word in this context is referring to bondage that's ok you still have a major problem with the

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African slave trade and that is that they that they did not have buyers that does not describe in any way the

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African slave trade and so what we end up seeing here in its context whenever we look at anything we have to read within context

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I know that many of the Hebrew Israelites will will take the verse in Isaiah that was

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Zadok had quoted where it'll say that we should take here a little there a little and they'll take that to mean that the way to read the

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Bible is to grab one thing out of its context grab another thing out of its context and slam it together that is not how you do any kind of interpretation anywhere and I would say if you are going to be required if you're going to say that that is the way to interpret and that's the only way to interpret then you have yourself a major problem because in Mark nine three it says and and his remnant speaking of Jesus and his remnant became it became shining exceedingly white as snow so as fuller on earth on earth white can can white them so I would say that if you're going to say we take here a little there a little the never says

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Jesus Christ is white in fact he's whiter than white he's the whitest thing that's ever been white now

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I will argue that's not the proper way to interpret it because every single person that is going to look at that and say no no no that is referring to clothing that's that's not referring to his skin however it's talking about his remnant and remnant can be his skin that's just as easy to say and so the problem is is you have to follow rules of interpretation once you step out from the rules of interpretation now you are no longer taking

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God's Word but man's Word and since Zadok had quoted or referred to John Calvin those are

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Calvin's words John Calvin had said that when you when man twists God's Word they no longer have

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God's Word they have man's Word and that's what we end up doing we take things out of context this is a thing called proof texting proof texting is when you take one passage or one verse and you take it off and out of its context you put it together with another to give it a new meaning now for those who want to argue for the here a little there a little keep in mind that you're doing that based on verses and chapters that were added in some 800 years after the writing of the

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New Testament so these were not inspired breaks this was something people put in men put those breaks in there and so how do you know to take from that little section you can't you have to read it within its context in fact

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I know that throughout this Zadok would expect and I should would expect that he would expect this that I take what he says in context and I read it the way it was meant to be read

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I should not take when he says his words just because I want them to have a different meaning

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I should not take them and say they're figurative when they're not or to say they're literal when they're not when people say something like I'm so hungry

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I can eat a cow while I might be able to eat a lot but I don't know that I can get a whole cow and people know that by its phrase that it is an idiom there's nothing within this text since the entire chapter is talking about future events that were fulfilled in the time of the writing of the

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Old Testament they were fulfilled literally just as this is mentioned literally there's no reason to believe that Egypt is not

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Egypt that the slaves are not slaves that the ships are not ships and that there were no buyers therefore

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I do not see any way logically within the text here following the rules of interpretation that this can in any way refer to the

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African slave trade and with two minutes left I'll give up my time okay next we'll go into the rebuttals

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Zadok will go first you have ten minutes Zadok oh can you hear me gotcha you're good okay yeah forgive me that's why

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I don't like doing hangouts on my phone um okay just give me one second here bro before you start my time because I want to make sure my camera is back on okay that was a very good opening he wants cameras on because he knows he's better looking than me that's so unfair of you look well sir the

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Hebrew blood in me is partly the probably part of the reason why but hey

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I don't judge how men look cuz I don't think I'm that great -looking at least my wife finds me decent so praise

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God for her that's not okay um great opener statement um once again

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I actually I actually appreciate being brought on to this platform now

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I want to stay for the record that um

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I did quote the Targum Jonathan I also did quote Josephus as two sources that many would use to say hey this right here that's it that's all

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Deuteronomy 2868 is talking about but Moses wasn't talking to the

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Jews Moses was actually talking to the nation of Israel in the wilderness and I also argue again that the entire nation of Israel suffered every single part of that curse and we would have to say that the bondage that that going into the house of bondage again in ships didn't happen to all the tribes it only corresponds with what happened in 70 and it's clear that while I accept what happened in 70 it's clear because I read sources

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I'm arguing that it went deeper than that and the gentleman said that a brother

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Andrew said that I somehow that I didn't have a license to do that and that I had to read literally what was there and I and I knew he would say that which is why

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I showed you guys a little glimpse but I'm gonna give you some more I showed you a little glimpse of showing you that in Malachi chapter 4 the prophet says that God shall send

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Elijah the prophet the people were literate just like they were literally looking for the

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Christ which Jesus literally showed up and was the Son of David not the spirit of the

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Son of David in him but he was literally the Messiah and all of us on here are believers that he is the

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Messiah to this moment we would all have to say that John the Baptist was Elijah the prophet too but yet when

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John the Baptist was asked to his face are you Elijah he said no

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Jesus later after he after John was killed by Herod said if you will accept it that basically the spirit in John and what

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John was preaching this was Elijah so how is it that if I'm reading

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Malachi 4 all it says to me is that Elijah the prophet was coming but I want to show you something else because he talked about the language right he talked about the language of the scripture let's go to Deuteronomy 29 right quick and Deuteronomy 29

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I want to show you because he said everything if you said Egypt remember I said while I believe

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Egypt notice my opening statement while I believe Egypt was literal I also believe it went further now and Deuteronomy 29

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I'm gonna read this this is Moses speaking to the generation that's about to go into the land with Joshua right he says uh verse 21 and the

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Lord shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in the book of the law talking about the man he'll punish right so that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you and the stranger that shall come from a far land shall say when they see the plagues of that land and the sicknesses which the

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Lord hath laid upon it and the whole land is brimstone and salt and burning that it is not sown nor bears nor any grass grows therein like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah Atma and Zeppelin which the

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Lord overthrew in his anger and in his wrath even all nations shall say wherefore hath the Lord done this unto this land what meaneth the heat of this great anger brothers and sisters you won't find one time in the history of Israel where the whole land was ever brimstone salt and burning not sown no grass growing or bearing any fruit even in the

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Babylonian captivity while you have the children of the aristocracy taken back to Babylon which

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Daniel Hananiah Azariah and Mishael were a part of they were children of the Israelite elite

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Ezekiel came from a high family in Israel of prophets and others

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Jeremiah and many of the poor Jews and strangers and Benjamites got to stay in the land to farm it but the

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Bible doesn't give you the whole story it gives you a small glimpse the whole land was never not farmed even in the destruction of Jerusalem the whole land was never not farmed even when the

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Romans destroyed Jerusalem they didn't kill all of even Judea but the whole land that Israel inhabits is from the

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River of Egypt unto the Great River which people would think is either the Jordan or the Euphrates however you want to say it the land of Palestine has never in a history of it look like this but why is the

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Most High saying the whole land would be brimstone and salt and burning and it won't be sold people will come in it's gonna look like this this language is figurative and yet literal at the same time and if you reach out to me

39:30

I could prove it in other studies now I want to show one more thing I just want to show one more thing um where's it uh

39:42

I can't find it for the sake of time

39:48

Jesus is quoted when he's talking to the stubborn Pharisees and the people of Israel who don't believe him he says unto them well have

39:59

Isaiah prophesied of you for in hearing you don't hear and in seeing you don't see in your ears have grown dull he quoted

40:08

Isaiah but brothers and sisters what I'm gonna say to you is that Isaiah and context when you're reading it in the scripture

40:20

Isaiah was not talking about a future generation and I and I want to I'm hoping that I can find this here right quick um it's

40:32

Isaiah chapter 6 oh thank you Isaiah chapter 6 thanks a lot let me go to it right quick okay

40:41

Isaiah 6 now this is um you see okay in the year that Uzziah died okay he said now this is

40:54

Isaiah go and tell this people hear you indeed but understand not and see you indeed but perceive not now

41:02

Jesus said Isaiah have spoken well of you but in context here Isaiah is being sent to his generation of the children of Israel now when

41:13

Jesus uses it he's not necessarily saying that Isaiah was literally talking about his generation but he's saying that in you being hard -headed just like your father's

41:25

Isaiah is speaking of you too and then another place Christ said just like your father's killed the prophets go ahead and fill up the measure of their fathers basically he's saying you just like your father's but in context

41:37

Isaiah Jesus is basically saying you figuratively when you look at it you're doing the same thing you're what you're literally doing what your father's did so even though Isaiah was speaking to his generation who he was sent to man he was talking about y 'all because y 'all the same kind of people and these are people who are living over 600 or more years later so in the idea that somehow when you read the scripture he says if Egypt is literal the ships have to be literal

42:06

Zadok said while I believe that in Deuteronomy 2868 Egypt is literal

42:12

I said I believe it also is speaking of the greater bondage that happened in Israel and come to me and we can build because I can show you that in other parts of Israelite captivity throughout the ages that they suffered the same conditions that they found happening in Egypt as well so I'm just gonna go ahead and I'll back out there for now

42:33

I just wanted to address the idea that somehow I couldn't that the ships had to be literal if Egypt was literal

42:39

I'm sorry I don't want to miss quote brother Andrew the ships would have to be figurative if the if Egypt was figurative while Egypt was literal and I quoted you to Targum Jonathan and Josephus I quoted those to show you know something literally happened to Jews in 70

42:58

I'm telling you that Egypt in that same context went further and right now many

43:04

Israelites I believe I'm one of them are in a house of bondage right now oh

43:12

I'm sorry I'll go ahead and see my time of my Roboto for now thank you okay so Andrew you have 10 minutes

43:19

Roboto all right well thanks and for the you know it's I know this may get some of the watch some watching upset but I'll argue that I am the

43:31

Israelite here I'm gonna argue that because my family lineage can be traced back through Korah through Levi to Abraham himself and so the way we know a genealogy would be through the lineage now let me address some of the things a bunch here may have to get to it in the cross -examination part but where he mentions were two or three in his opening two or three witnesses are referred to via the court cases but he brought in two witnesses

44:07

Josephus and the Targum I would argue neither one of them are scripture so I'm not going to put weight in them as much as I would scripture

44:16

I'm gonna argue from from scripture and the interesting thing with the use of the

44:23

Targum Jonathan is if you look at that he makes it clear that Egypt is literal by using the

44:29

Red Sea now he's Zadok is is saying that he believes Israel I'm sorry that Egypt is literal but goes beyond that and I don't

44:38

I agree that it's that it is literal Egypt does it go beyond that well the argument being made is referring to what's referred to as near and future prophecies

44:50

Isaiah 6 for example that was literally what happened within Isaiah's time literally what happened in Jesus's time when you see the near and future prophecies those are so that how do you know a prophet is legitimate he's going to give a prophecy that could be seen within the time of that of the people and even though it has a future fulfillment but both the filaments are always literal now the thing that's of interest in the opening statement and in the rebuttal is the focus on the word

45:20

Egypt where my focus was on the word no man shall buy you you see that's the thing that I think you can't get around the issue is if Egypt is literal but goes beyond I'll grant you that Egypt can can mean that it can mean literal

45:36

Egypt we both agree there it can mean bondage because I believe that this was referring to a literal bondage and that's where maybe

45:46

Zadok and I would disagree because I think he's going to refer to it from what he's saying I think he's referring to it as a as a bondage that is not the the same literal bondage maybe it was for the

45:56

African slave trades but at the end he said we're still in bondage so I think he's referring it not in the same slave trade way but he can correct me if I'm wrong but the thing there is that you have to deal with the fact that then the the people selling themselves as slaves not having anybody to buy them that they sell themselves is the main issue because that is what basically

46:25

I think makes it clear that this text is not referring to the African slave trade now this wouldn't be the case for Zadok but you know for folks who do say that Egypt is only figurative only a bondage you know he he went into chapter 29 which does go on and you when you look there he makes it clear that this

46:46

Egypt is the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh so it's quite clear who it's referring to now the

46:53

I would say in in the opening statement the in his opening statement and he may have misspoke because sometimes we do this when we are in a debate but he referred to this verse in Deuteronomy 28 68 that they were sold off and that's not what the text says it says you shall be sold unto your enemies and no man shall buy you and so they weren't but the point being is they were not sold in the sense that that someone had them and that they sold them for money and were bought they had no buyers the issue here with the argument that Zadok made that everything has to happen to all of the tribes you cannot make that argument from Deuteronomy 28 why because not every mother ate her young and in the in Deuteronomy 28 it talks about the famine it talks about this destitution to the point where the mothers will even eat their own young this is verse 57 of Deuteronomy 28 okay where she will eat them and that didn't happen to all of them because of the siege and so we have to be consistent the one thing that you can see with what

48:20

I'm doing is I'm staying consistent throughout the text I'm seeing this as a literal text these things literally happened there's nothing here that says that this is happening to all of the twelve tribes of Israel there's nothing in the text that says this happens to every single person as he's arguing that becomes something that is being put into the text so that to disbunk an argument that's being made but there's nothing in the text that says this happens to all in fact if that did happen to all there would be no

48:51

Israelites left because all of the mothers would have eaten their children and there would be no next generation and so right there you have to realize that this is not speaking of all of them now there are there are times

49:06

I agree with Zadok he's right there are times when Egypt means the land of Egypt the literal place and there's times where it does not where it's figurative and the issue is that when we look at these things the question is not does

49:22

Egypt mean Egypt in some other text does bondage mean bondage in some other text does no man shall buy you literally mean that in some other day the question only is what does it mean here and I do not appeal to sources that are not from God to argue it

49:42

I'm arguing from the context of the Word of God and when we look at these we see that this is clearly saying everything in Deuteronomy 28 is fulfilled literally in history they had no buyers to argue and this is the only thing that you that can happen the thing that someone has to do is say that the ships are literal even if you're gonna say

50:09

Egypt is literal but goes beyond you have to make something mean something it doesn't when it says no man shall buy you when people try to argue as some that I've come across I haven't heard

50:23

Zadok argue this so I am not attributing this to him because I think I think in his rebuttal he responded to some things that I said

50:33

I think he thought that I was saying it to him when I was trying to make it broader to other Hebrew Israelites I met as well so I'm being very clear on this this is not to Zadok specifically but for the people who do make an argument that no man shall buy you means that he'll have no

50:48

Redeemer that becomes a more dangerous position for I think people would say they're

50:53

Hebrew Israelites because that means you have no salvation if you have no Redeemer so the argument would be this if you're going to say that Egypt is is literal but but goes beyond it if you're going to argue that the that no man shall buy you is that's figurative everything in this text is figurative my question is what in the text from the text says that the word ships would be literal see

51:25

I look at this whole chapter and everything's literal so I'm going to interpret not only ships is literal but Egypt is literal no man shall buy you is literal

51:32

I take those literal because there's nothing in the context here in this context and one thing we don't do is go to some other context and read it into an into a context here and give it a meaning this one doesn't have

51:45

I think that the context here is clear that everything is literal and because of that I take it that way and therefore there these slaves had no buyers and I'll give up the minute and a half

51:58

I have left okay now we're gonna have a time of cross -examination we're gonna have a 15 -minute cross -examination so Zadok can start by cross -examining

52:10

Andrew and asking him questions 15 minutes and then after that Andrew you can cross -examine

52:17

Zadok so Zadok could begin you're muted brother hold on let's man can we can you unmute him

52:28

Tom Zadok is not muted hello yeah there you go okay all right sorry about that um brother

52:36

Andrew um and notice I'll call you brother Andrew there's probably many

52:41

Hebrews are like to one get on here and call you brother that is true um because Hebrews are like is an ethnic claiming you said that you believe that you are the only

52:50

Hebrews are like here earlier and you said something about trick tracing your line through the cohen all the way back to Abraham and stuff like that and that's fine and dandy but you would you admit for the record that the cohen model type that many people you know j -chromosome you know all that stuff that they get into in this 20 to 30 year old

53:08

DNA stuff that the cohen model type that is even found amongst you know some people in Africa you say you have it which is great that's not the only connection to being an

53:23

Israelite correct so basically you're saying you're coming through Levi or through even Aaron's line possibly tracing all the way back to Abraham but of course that's that couldn't be the only way right yes it was you're just speaking for yourself right no the the only way to be in a line of I mean the only way my son could claim he's my son is to be in my line okay so now okay so so you don't agree with the

53:49

Israeli government that actually allow some people to claim Jew through their mother well okay well that's that's how yeah the

53:57

Jewish line the Judaism is the only religion that's claimed through mother yes but interesting

54:05

Israelite would be done through the father okay and so even if we go back to the days of Ezra and Nehemiah and you had many who came out of Babylon and who were trying to get themselves to be part of the you know of being sanctified and cleansed in order to serve in a newly built temple when

54:25

Ezra and them couldn't necessarily find their names and whatever records they had they didn't say those men weren't from Levi or they weren't

54:34

Israel they just said look if we can't find your name here or your father or whoever then basically they didn't let them be in the temple service but that didn't exclude them people from that didn't diminish their claim of being from the house of Levi none right so if and let me rephrase it make sure

54:52

I understand your question correctly yeah so there could be who are in the line of from Abraham that are not recorded in the records is that yes like in the book of Ezra yeah and I would agree now

55:05

I might disagree with the book of Ezra because I think the issue they had with the book of Ezra was more of a more of a racial issue okay when that when the

55:16

Assyrians came in what the Assyrians way of captivity was they came in they took most of the

55:22

Jew Jewish people most of Israelites out and they brought other people into that land which is you know what you end up seeing in the context

55:30

I think of this text but because if you look at Deuteronomy 28 it clearly depicts people them heart put it planting and then someone else comes in and harvests it and eats the the fruit of their labor so I think what you see there is that they were called you know

55:48

Samaritans they were they were referred to as like half breeds because they intermixed the those that were the

55:57

Israelites married with those that were the Gentiles that were put into the land from the Assyrians and the

56:04

Jewish people didn't have I think wrongly didn't have a respect for others they were very they were very racially motivated

56:13

I'm no I accept your answer I don't I didn't want you to get overly long but I accept your answer as far as how you look at it but I'm talking about two different things the forty or so thousand

56:26

Jews that came from Babylon among them not not those who were in the land in that group you had those who lined up to be part of the priesthood and they names couldn't be found in the genealogy so they didn't let them get in there you had another group where the men of the land it's in Nehemiah talks about this a lot where they started to deal with women of the land and you said your son could only claim his lineage through you and through some kind of record but history tells us and I'm not using no extra biblical source there were many children born by Israelite men with foreign women and because of Nehemiah being afraid which was also the beginning of that evil law that Peter named in Acts 10

57:10

Jews don't keep company with that that's not Torah that was you know it was a lot of mistakes made by the fathers

57:17

I think in good intent but you know some things turn out bad in the end there were many children male and female who could literally claim to be

57:25

Israel because of who their father is but in order to covenant with Nehemiah because of what they were afraid of they did bastardize but you bastardizing someone doesn't get rid of the blood that's in you so I just wanted to make that point so that so that everyone else

57:43

I understand that the idea of who is Israel it goes a little bit deeper than what some people would like to let on yeah

57:53

I'll agree with you that not everyone who was you know from the offspring of Abraham is recorded there's there are many who are not recorded the problem also is that there's many that have intermixed and therefore you know they they wouldn't they don't know to go back the the different I guess the difference

58:14

I'm saying is I and if I said I'm the only Israeli I think what I'm saying there is that excuse me

58:22

I'm sorry about my voice I'm fine the you know because I and you don't seem to be saying this

58:28

Zadok but many who are Israelites will say that because of the lack of melanin in my skin I cannot be a

58:36

Israelite and I would trace line now that's bad could could somebody be of that line but not have it recorded so they can't trace it back yeah

58:47

I'll agree that that that could be yeah that and that's fine and of course I wouldn't I wouldn't be that guy if someone wants to get into that I believe there's a reason why

58:54

Paul said arguing over the vanity arguing over genealogies is actually unprofitable it doesn't lead to anything because even in their time there was a big issue with genealogies apparently but I just wanted because you have said something about the

59:11

Israel I think so because I know there's a lot of quote -unquote Israelites and Jewish people and stuff watching so I just wanted to put that out there but now and now in getting to apartment the point that you made about about depending strictly on the scripture and it being literal it is

59:32

I went to Deuteronomy 29 and and I saw ask you do you know of a time in the history of Israel when the whole land has been burning brimstone salt and burning not sewn not um reaped or gathered do you know of any time in a

59:50

I'm talking about especially when they were put out yeah which first because I have found which first was that specifically because you that was

59:57

Deuteronomy 29 in verse 23 I believe brother hold on something

01:00:03

I think I think I was still there I was writing notes when you okay was that Deuteronomy 23 that's a whole land thereof is brimstone and salt and burning right that it be sown and beareth nor the grass growth therein okay so yeah yeah it was um it was 29 23 okay yeah brother that's the point yeah that's the one yeah so the issue here is you know

01:00:30

I would end up saying does does the word whole when it says whole land usually when you have something where it'll say whole land when you have words like that are all -encompassing they're meant to be truly all -encompassing they have ways to identify that hold often but just like whole world doesn't usually mean literally like every person in the world or every section of the world so I like when it says in all

01:01:01

Israel shall be saved yeah well I will say that that's one where I would argue that is all of Israel but yeah no

01:01:19

I I don't I don't think there's a time that's been in history I think though there is when we look at Deuteronomy 28 and 29 there is a clear break in the in the reading here because it goes from a prophecy and then in chapter 29 verse 1 there then says these are the words of the covenant which the

01:01:40

Lord spoke so now this breaks into a new way of thinking a new thought with explaining the law and I'll just throw in that my my favorite verse of all is at the end of that chapter 29 29 so when

01:01:55

I teach theology I always have to rely on that the secret things belong unto the Lord but those things which he's revealed to us belong to us our children okay brother now now now to be fair and I'm assuming that by blood you're you're considered to be among the

01:02:17

Jewish people and of course among the Jewish people there are many who don't accept

01:02:22

Yeshua of Nazareth as being you know and so I'm pretty sure you get into great discussions with the rabbinicals and the

01:02:33

Orthodox at some time of time you being a Christian Jew or what they would call a Messianic Jew I'm pretty sure you have some great discussions in your day

01:02:41

I do not typically with Orthodox because they see me as a traitor got you when my parents found out that I became a

01:02:48

Christian they actually went casket shopping they were gonna Wow okay casket shopping okay well okay the sound like they never remind me of what

01:03:00

Lord did the Calico for those who watch battle rap you I know what's up okay but and the reason why

01:03:05

I say that is because in in the community that you come from right let's say your parents who like oh you're a

01:03:12

Christian when your parents read Malachi chapter 4 as I read earlier about the

01:03:19

Lord shall send Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord would to be fair to those who may not deal with the

01:03:26

New Testament because if they're because if you're going to put what you just said about Deuteronomy 28 and 68 as like like this is how you read scripture without going to extra biblical sources or anything of that nature for those who read scripture but they may not accept they're not gonna accept what

01:03:43

Jesus said about Malachi right wouldn't they apply the same ideal that hey here in Malachi we just as we're waiting for the literal son of David we're waiting for the literal

01:03:58

Elijah to come yeah and I'm trying to look up because because you had referred to John the

01:04:04

Baptist being the literal and he says he's not but Jesus after his after the

01:04:11

Mount of Transfiguration when he was coming down his disciple asked him about that and it said that John would have been had

01:04:21

Israel accepted him so God being all knowing knowing that Israel was going to reject him as Messiah did not send the literal

01:04:30

Elijah at that time I think that he will come in the future I think that okay so you do okay

01:04:36

I get how you see that text yeah so I take it I do take that as a future literal okay got you okay

01:04:43

I got you no no no no that's fine and right there that's almost if that's the case that's almost midrash ik

01:04:51

I mean and I'm not saying that that's what you're doing but I'm just saying that I believe

01:04:57

Paul applied them same principles that he learned from under Gamaliel and others and many in a way that the

01:05:02

Holy Spirit revealed because just like when I deal with the Orthodox and I tell them look in your own in your own discussions of your rabbis you give license for a bin

01:05:15

David and bin Yosef when it comes to the Messiah if the nation is in this state the

01:05:20

Messiah will return as in the spirit of Joseph yes the nation is in righteousness he will return as David come conquering is that in the third so in what you just said there there are many who see

01:05:33

John the Baptist as that fulfillment and they don't see Elijah coming I'm talking about Christians they don't see a future

01:05:38

Elijah yes you see yeah but it wouldn't have been Paul and Pauline because I would have been from Matthew I believe no no no no

01:05:47

I'm just saying that what Christ applied there if if it's how you say I said it's almost midrash ik yeah in the way that in the way that that could be if you're correct and maybe you are brother so I'm gonna go back and look at that cuz that's an interesting viewpoint

01:06:02

I've never considered that so thank you for that I think you just you possibly just taught me something or just at least one way or the other

01:06:10

I can have two angles to look at it um okay and I wanted to ask you one more thing I know that our time is coming to an end for me to be able to say this so you said that you don't rely on the extra biblical sources so would you say that there in Deuteronomy like when it when it says the

01:06:25

Lord shall bring you to Egypt again with ships and no man shall buy you as far as I know and I could be wrong and maybe you have read the sources but you just won't bring them into the discussion the sources actually claimed that it was in Hebron and in Gaza where the

01:06:43

Israelites were sold and that they're still in the land of Israel it was so many of them that at one time where they were selling for the price of a horse it got down to the point where they were we're now those who were left because it was so many they were trying to sell themselves but they were still in Israel and people weren't buying them see the ones who actually got sent to Egypt well at least in Hadrian Hadrian actually sent certain individuals to Egypt straightway but as far as what happened the and that was about 60 years after what happened in 70 in 70 it was in the land of Israel or in Palestine in the markets on the coast some

01:07:25

Israelites never even left the coast because no one would buy them so in Deuteronomy 28 68 if you just read it like that then the idea would be you're gonna go into Egypt and there in Egypt no man shall buy you but that's just not the case so even so so so when you say you don't need

01:07:47

I use extra biblical sources and you did quote and I know you know them but you're just choosing to not use them

01:07:53

I could tell you're very educated and you're reading some of this stuff what I'm pointing out is is that if we don't go into history then what happens is this as Israel goes on through time past 70 and past 135 under NPR Hadrian there is nothing else to say about their history and I'm gonna argue that the things that happened to them in India West Africa and even on into Europe that in them cases

01:08:22

I believe Deuteronomy 28 is still being fulfilled in this regard these curses shall pursue you and overtake you wherever you are so eat so just like in Jeremiah's day to Israelites who try to run into Egypt on their own eventually still got caught up with by the signs of the curse the it don't stop with 70 the over the last two millennium we would have to say that after 70 and 135 no more of the curses can be found in the earth pursuing the generations of Israelites and I don't agree with that which is why

01:09:00

I said even though I agree that they're in Deuteronomy 2868 I read Jonathan and Josephus brother which actually

01:09:07

I believe agrees with your point you can see literally where some is with some Jews were sent into Egypt but I'm telling you that they're just like in other places in scripture

01:09:17

I believe that there is more there and that for those who may not have went into Egypt literally other members of the twelve tribes went into the house of bondage in ships literally in other places and I know you know that because I think you said something along the lines where I'm there there were ships involved in other places but just specifically 28 and 68

01:09:39

I would say it's not so I won't argue with you about that but we would have to back up and say at least verse 64 or 65 if you're going to be scattered into all nations some of that definitely happened by ships okay so I don't know and I know we went two minutes over there but I don't know if there was a question there no

01:10:02

I mean go ahead and respond to it I started with a question and I added more information so that was unfair to you so you could respond to it in any way

01:10:11

I know that my time is up yeah Tom I'll just take a couple of minutes from my questions to him and to respond if that's okay

01:10:18

I and let me just specify it and I'm tremor now what we saw you said so much but because there's something you did you said that I want to respond now

01:10:32

I'm trying to remember see I'm running my mouth so much I'm trying to make you forget well no I didn't take notes that's that was the problem but the the you had mentioned son about I can't remember you was your original thing you started with oh when all about oh are you talking about here and as far as Deuteronomy this last last question when you started that question you'd say you said something about the way that I had said something and I I can't remember oh as far as um as far as uh if you're taking 28 and 68 literally it says the

01:11:13

Lord shall bring you into Egypt again in ships and there you shall be sold for bond men and bond women and no man shall buy you and I'm saying that in the history it is claiming that all of that happened in the land of Israel where Israelites were so many that they couldn't even be sold at market after so many have been sold oh no no okay not a mirror what it is now because okay okay yeah so you you mentioned and I just want to clarify this because you had mentioned

01:11:42

I said I only use scripture and and what I'm appealing to is that I'm only using scripture in the interpretation of this within its context okay clearly clearly

01:11:53

I don't rely me I'm referencing history as you pointed out so clearly

01:11:58

I do rely on on extra biblical things but the point that I'm saying is on this when we're the first step that I'm gonna argue for interpreting anything we're gonna take it within its immediate context first and that's why

01:12:12

I'm looking just at this passage that's why when we set this up I said I didn't want to jump all over the place but stay right to to to the vert to this one verse the verses before the verses after it because that's really what gives us the immediate context okay so Tom I let's just I'll I'll go shorter on on mine up we could take me ten minutes off of my key or five minutes off of my

01:12:33

Q &A and we could you know because I don't want to take away from the other guys that are gonna is that okay sure sure so now

01:12:42

Andrew you go ten minute cross -examination so Zedak my first question for you and you know it's

01:12:52

I'm not sure how you're gonna answer some of some of these so I'm kind of curious as far as the you know where it says that the

01:13:01

Lord shall bring them into Egypt again when it says again that refers to second a second time what would be the first time that that's referring to when they were when they were in bondage in Egypt coming out of coming out with Moses okay so that would be referring to the literal land of Egypt at that time yeah okay yeah so then the first bondage what you're agreeing would be the the literal land of Egypt would we then agree that it within the context that wouldn't could it would it make sense that this would be saying that the bondage here referred to is again the literal land of Egypt yeah okay now you're if I understand your position correctly and I don't want to misrepresent you and that's so are you saying in your interpretation of this that they would be returning to the literal land of Egypt as slaves but they would also go beyond that and be part of the

01:14:13

African slave trade uh no what

01:14:18

I'm saying what no I'm I'm not saying I'm not I'm not referring to the African slave trade um exclusively

01:14:25

I'm saying I said you you would you would your position be that this that this refers to not only them returning to Egypt but then extend out even to the

01:14:37

African slave trade oh yes yes yes yes yes and and that's simply because you know

01:14:45

I've already stated it that I look at Egypt as the house of bondage and I believe that that becomes applied in other scenarios of the nation where they return into bondage not always literal

01:14:59

Egypt and now this one's more not for debate so much um but I'm just curious you you reference that you you're still in bondage now out of my own curiosity what would that be referring to of course

01:15:13

I ask you that question of course of course me believing that well I believe that many people um that were in the transatlantic slave trade not all

01:15:23

I believe that's impossible to prove and I'll preface it with this the same way I believe it's impossible to prove that everyone that was actually taken in a

01:15:31

Syrian captivity were all flesh and blood Israelites no one says what happens to Rahab family through the of Israel and so on so this the the transatlantic slave trade had had had engulfed many people of color who lived in sub -saharan

01:15:52

Africa in the west coast of Africa who claimed to be descendants of the children of Israel and even to this day in the land there are people we are in contact with who've been claiming you know they come from people who've been claiming

01:16:05

Hebraism for the last couple millennia and they look at us many of us over here as brethren and so without and so since I believe that I come from that stock of people that is where I find me claiming to be

01:16:18

Israel so me being the descendant of a person who was brought to this country as chattel

01:16:24

I say that I am in bondage because I'm a descendant of people who were not immigrants nor did they migrate they were forced data we are the only non -immigrants in America besides our trafficked young women these days yeah the but there are there's plenty of people who are have been under bondage that are not

01:16:45

Israelites correct yeah okay when it says that no man shall buy you what do you believe that's referring to well

01:16:55

I believe that at that point that it's that it's twofold that it's two things happening in this when you're put into this captivity you're gonna you got two things happening there you shall be sold for bond men and bond women history records that happened they were sold and then you had a time where there were so many of them that they weren't being sold no more and some of them were trying to sell themselves because they were brought to strange lands and they were pretty much left to fend for themselves they was kind of just like almost in a position like African so -called

01:17:33

African Americans who were let off plantations you free many of them wandered for days and history says a lot of them went back to plantations and actually sold themselves and they weren't brought they actually were because it was against the law so sharecropping became another form of legal slavery so what

01:17:52

I'm saying is is that I believe it's two things in that verse you're gonna be sold for bond men and bond women that happened and also there was a time where they weren't you know some of them were trying to sell themselves and couldn't be brought what

01:18:07

I'm saying is both happen okay so I'm gonna ask a couple questions that aren't directly to you but directed toward folks that are in YouTube have you and I mental yep have you and I met before before this or had any conversations before this no no my man

01:18:24

Eric Rice brought you up to me and my man and about three days ago in a discussion on telegram so so you didn't prep for me and I didn't prep for you did we know okay cuz some people are saying that you know

01:18:39

I didn't prep properly for you know I didn't because I want to hear what you have to say because I don't know

01:18:46

I didn't know your position and there's also someone saying that that I'm not taking you serious because I'm not taking notes well here are my notes can

01:18:57

I just say this for the record for those whoever don't know me

01:19:05

I can't really I don't know but anyone watching who knows me I'm known to do this brother they know that this is just how

01:19:14

I come you didn't have to prep for me and I prep for you and we had a phone conversation nothing yeah and I and you know even even

01:19:22

Eric had asked me if I if I knew who you were and so did Tom look my thing is

01:19:28

I'm dealing with what the scripture says that's what I'm looking at I don't I don't need to prep for a person to know how they're gonna respond because I'm gonna deal with what

01:19:35

I think the text says I think in the cross -examination is where we get to see what our positions are get to clarify them and and that's you know the thing with me as I told you you know just before we went live is

01:19:48

I tried to not misrepresent folks try to be fair and you know

01:19:53

I think I tried to do that and they cannot ask a question is this being is this something people can watch back later this will be on okay cool and and I should state for the record because I have a couple minutes

01:20:05

I don't really have a question more questions for you but I'll just state that I'll ask forgiveness from folks that I I came in here before Tom did and accidentally started the broadcast before he got a chance to and once you start a broadcast you can't stop it and that's exactly what

01:20:21

I did that's why there had to be a new link so I know there was confusion with the link so that was purely my fault not

01:20:27

Tom's in any way so that's all the questions that I had Tom okay great job guys so now we're gonna give our closing statement so Zayda you can give your 10 -minute closing statement okay thank you um brother

01:20:45

Andrew I would like to speak with you on a myriad of topics um outside of this platform because you've treated me cordially and you haven't made me feel any kind of way whatever your claims are whatever you believe

01:21:01

I'm not offended by none of that because I'm going to all I can do is be asked except me and what

01:21:10

I'm gonna say and present and I have to give you that side of the coin as well and I appreciate you I'm not lumping me into the same old category of whoever but just wanting to hear me and see what

01:21:21

I had to say whether we agree or disagree um I want to say to the entire audience um for those who might doubt the point that I made about Egypt notice what

01:21:34

I said I I from the beginning with my opening statement pointed out that while I believe specifically that Deuteronomy 28 and 68 has a fulfilling and some things that happened in 70 and in one and in 135 under Emperor Hadrian and I read the

01:21:58

Targum Jonathan and quoted Josephus in the Jewish Wars to let you know hey I see this thing about Egypt literally but then there's something that goes further and that is a

01:22:10

Egypt as the other word Egypt the phrase Egypt carrying the idea of the house of bondage and what

01:22:17

I did use is um I think I quoted Revelation about the city which spiritually is called

01:22:26

Sodom in Egypt now this is the thing for some people unless you read the book of Revelation you probably would never come to a conclusion that there's a city spiritually called

01:22:38

Sodom in Egypt but see that's the problem the Bible gives us a window but it is with all of our reading it is the

01:22:47

Holy Spirit that brings understanding that's why there are many people who can open up the

01:22:53

Bible and read the whole thing and say there is no God didn't they read the

01:22:58

Bible so understand this the reading of the scripture does not bring understanding alone it could give you some memory knowledge but it is the ruach ha kodesh it is the it is

01:23:10

God through his grace and his mercy to those who are diligent and to those who are seeking after his truth he said seek and ye shall find so I'm looking and who knows maybe today dealing with Andrew is another thing from which

01:23:24

I'm gonna take some pieces of treasure because I have no plan B if Christ didn't die and resurrect then

01:23:31

I'm just if I find out it's not true which is impossible it's don't be around me because I'll be living in utter sin and I'll do whatever

01:23:39

I just you know I might hurt you because it's my right Deuteronomy 28 and 68 is talking about literal

01:23:48

Egypt and it's talking about the greater context of the nation of Israel and I believe that it is supported by chapter

01:23:58

I mean verse what is it is it verse 64 I just want to I just want to go back there right quick and I want to read that because what happens is this maybe you do have some

01:24:09

Israelites who will go into the scripture and they'll go to Deuteronomy 28 and 68 and say see right there

01:24:15

I see the transatlantic slave trade Zadok never said that I read all of this and when

01:24:21

I read verse 64 and Yahweh says I will scatter thee among all people from one end of the earth even to the other you know that in order for that to happen ships have to be involved but I want to read something right quick I want to go over to I want to go over to the book of I want to go now

01:24:42

I'm not gonna go to Daniel for the sake of time um let's go over to Isaiah 66

01:24:47

I want to go to Isaiah 66 and when we get there I'm gonna read verse come on Bible hold on for a second here why is this not scrolling up and down for me now okay we go forgive me guys my mouse wouldn't scroll for a second come on you know the verse

01:25:20

I'll read it for you um okay yeah brother thank you uh Isaiah 66 and I want to start reading that verse 18 just tell me when to stop go ahead okay for I knew their their works and their thoughts it shall come and I shall gather all nations and tongues and they shall come and see my glory and I will sit

01:25:46

I will set a sign among them and I will send those that escape from them unto the nations to Tartarus Paul blood that draw the bow to two ball to Javan to the isles afar off that have not heard my fame neither have seen my glory and they shall declare my glory among the

01:26:13

Gentiles and they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the

01:26:21

Lord out of the nations upon horses and in chariots and in litters and upon mules and upon swift beasts to my holy mountain

01:26:30

Jerusalem saith the Lord as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the

01:26:38

Lord okay thank you thank you our brother Andrew now what I want to do I want to I want to read you our commentary out of the

01:26:45

Geneva study Bible on this particular verse he just read and it talks about all of these places and it says of the

01:26:52

Lord says I will make these that I chose that they perish not with the rest of the unbelievers by which he alludes to the marking of the pulse of his people who he preserved

01:27:01

I will scatter the rest of the Jews who escaped destruction into various nations that is

01:27:07

Cilicia meaning Africa Lydia or Asia Minor Italy Greece and other islands so what

01:27:18

I'm saying here is is that when if the children of Israel who escaped if you will and when

01:27:24

I say escape it don't mean that they all ran and just got away meaning that they didn't die in all the conflicts and all the plagues and in all the curses that God sent part of the curse was them getting put out of their land and in them being put in these different places it's letting you know that as the fame of God spreads first it first is spread by the

01:27:43

Jews who are actually just scattered being Israelites who serve Yahweh but then later on as time goes on in the gospel comes now you have another remnant from among Israel who coming out of Judea and they're preaching

01:27:55

Christ and this also spreads the fame of Yahweh they will be there until the times of Reformation as Jesus said you will be in all nations and so the times that the

01:28:05

Gentiles are fulfilled and here in Isaiah is letting you know the Gentiles are going to bring your brethren from all these places the only way you get into Italy to the islands of Greece and beyond is ships also

01:28:22

I want to just read this and I'll end it here I'm gonna go to the Jewish Encyclopedia and I'm gonna read about something that you know

01:28:30

I know a lot of people don't rock with the apocrypha that's fine whether you do or don't I'm not here to argue that but I want to read you this out of the

01:28:36

Jewish Encyclopedia this is the 1906 unedited text this is about Arzareth Arzareth is the name of a land beyond the great river far away from the habitation of man in which the ten tribes of Israel would dwell observing the laws of Moses until the time of restoration

01:28:52

Columbus identified America with this land for a reference see kaiserlings

01:28:59

Christopher Columbus the name it is has been suggested by Schiller and Skinesi is taken from Deuteronomy because they forsook the covenant of the

01:29:11

Lord so basically they're saying this means something like the forsaken land this passage is made to refer and they're gonna refer to the

01:29:18

Mishnah to the ten tribes but different opinions are expressed by Rabbi Akiva and Eleazar the traditions are rather confused as to the names whether the ten tribes may be expected to return or not since this point is not determined in the scriptural verse so they argue about it and of course this is

01:29:37

I think mentioned in the book of Esdras in the apocrypha or whatever as far as this land called

01:29:43

Arzareth this is a land that when you read the apocrypha as the Israelites were fleeing from the

01:29:51

Assyrian captivity it took them those who were able to escape when they got taken to a

01:29:56

Assyrian lands they took a year and a half journey to a land that's called Arzareth now in a Jewish encyclopedia as it quotes this it's saying that there are those who claim that this is

01:30:06

America even Christopher Columbus believed that this was the land and then of course you got some rabbis who talked back and forth about the ten tribes who will come back from the land that's far beyond the great river so what

01:30:19

I'm saying with this is brothers and sisters the bondage of Israel is what they went back into and not just literal

01:30:28

Egypt but the curse is ironic in this regard that the children of the kingdom of God not just the tribe of Judah but that the entire nation will go into bondage some by land some by sea and so all

01:30:43

I can tell you is they will be brought back as an offering from all over the earth many are going to come from across the seas and some are going to be able to get there through caravans but God has made a promise so Deuteronomy 28 and 68 while it does talk about literal

01:30:58

Egypt is talking about something further and I believe other texts around it are giving you the implications that the nation would be scattered to the four corners of the earth and even

01:31:10

Jesus to Christ himself confirmed that so I'm going to end it there I thank you guys for putting up with me

01:31:16

I thank you brother Andrew for putting up with me and prayerfully you and I get to talk again and we don't have to do it in debate form we can talk on the phone

01:31:23

God bless you thank you okay time now Andrew for the closing statement of the debate you have ten minutes all right well first off Zedok I do want to thank you very much for coming on I think it's you've been very respectful very thoughtful in your in the way you've presented yourself

01:31:44

I greatly appreciate and yes I'll take you up on that after we get done we'll we'll exchange numbers and talk no problem there

01:31:51

I really I really appreciate the manner in which you conducted yourself it's it's a thing where I think that we can disagree and we can do it in ways that is respectful it's one of the things that striving fraternity we've tried to do anyone that goes on to our

01:32:10

YouTube channel you'll actually see theological discussions there's a whole there's a playlist there of theological discussions

01:32:17

I'll probably add this to it because where we get into debates get into discussions where we don't agree but to display that we can disagree respectfully with charity with love if we're gonna claim that we're

01:32:31

Christians then we should be that should be clearly seen by our love for one another now obviously

01:32:39

Zedok and I disagree on this passage and its ramifications

01:32:44

I believe that this is that Deuteronomy 28 the whole chapter is a was a prophecy at the time that Moses was alive before Israel went into the

01:32:56

Promised Land there were things he mentions that were future even though there was no king at that time in Israel he does refer to Kings he refers to famines that would occur he refers to then this point here of a slavery where they would sell themselves as slaves and no one would buy them

01:33:16

I believe that this was all fulfilled historically but not in the African slave trade

01:33:22

I think that to argue that it's a all bondage the issue is is how do we know who is an

01:33:31

Israelite well there's gonna be the the way to know we really would be through genealogical records

01:33:37

I know and I didn't get to it in the in the question answer time but there was some mention that Zedok mentioned about DNA and we didn't really get into that but I would say that there's no way to test the

01:33:50

DNA of Abraham because he doesn't have any left I mean it you know that's the

01:33:57

DNA test that people argue is not a valid way of arguing because we cannot test it we can test our own

01:34:04

DNA and really what you end up looking at is a DNA filters back now one of the things with DNA that I will say is most of the most of those

01:34:14

DNAs and and geologies that are done are actually done by the Mormon Church which in their mind everyone sees themselves as part of the

01:34:24

Israeli tribe here's the thing every group wants to be part of Israel you have a

01:34:31

Catholic Church that will try to pretend like they're the priests and they use those those titles and they try to take on the nature of what was

01:34:40

Old Testament Israel you have the the Mormons oh wait we're not allowed to use that term anymore the

01:34:45

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints is the only allowed but anyway but that's the you know when you when you look at them they want to say that they are the lost tribes of Israel that came to America's and I understand that many that are in the

01:35:02

Hebrew Israelite movement also want to claim the same I think that the reason many want to do that is because they want to tie themselves back somehow to God's chosen people in the

01:35:13

Old Testament the reality is this I don't believe that just because of the amount of melanin in skin proves that someone is an

01:35:20

Israelite but here's the reason I think so many people want to root themselves back into the issue of trying to say that they are an

01:35:28

Israelite the real issue is people want to be part of God's chosen people and here's the thing that I would like to end on and it is this the fact is that every single human being that walks the face of the earth except for one

01:35:45

Jesus Christ every single human being suffers under the curse of sin and because of that they violate

01:35:53

God's law they break his commandments they lie they steal they covet they do things that would condemn them in the eyes of God in Revelation God says all liars will have their place in a lake of fire the one thing

01:36:08

I would like to communicate amongst anything else even where Zadok and I would disagree here's the thing

01:36:14

I would want everybody listening to understand that you and I will be found guilty in God's sight then when

01:36:20

God would judge us as appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment and when we are judged every single one of us regardless of the amount of melanin in our skin every one of us deserves hell because we're guilty that's what we deserve but God himself made a way of escape

01:36:39

God himself came to earth he died on a cross 2 ,000 years ago being fully human having never violated

01:36:49

God's law he is a perfect sacrifice and can pay the debt for other human beings being fully

01:36:55

God he can pay the debt not only for more than one human being because if I was if I was sinless

01:37:02

I'm not ask my wife but if I was sinless you could go and I would be able to pay for one other person but since the death the the punishment is eternal death it would take me eternity to pay as a temporal being can only pay it once for all time

01:37:18

God being eternal convey not only pay the eternal fine but pay for multiple people and so because he's fully

01:37:26

God he can pay the fine for multiple people and he could pay it eternally because he was fully man having never violated the law he was able to be that perfect sacrifice that replacement of sin and so he who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God Jesus Christ died in our place that we can have our fine paid so that we might have eternal life the thing is he proved it he proved it by not only dying not only predicting his death but he died on that cross as a payment of sin and said that he would raise himself three days later dead people do nothing but rot that wasn't the case with Jesus because he wasn't just a man he rose from the dead and vindicated everything he said about himself that not only was he

01:38:17

God but that he can have that he has the authority to offer to you the forgiveness of sin my plea with you is this that you would repent turn from trusting yourself as a good person turn from trusting your good works turn from trusting the amount of melanin in your skin what you might think that you're guaranteed heaven by genealogy

01:38:39

I was raised believing that because I was Jewish I was God's chosen people I was in like Flynn that was a lie

01:38:47

I don't go to heaven because I'm born of the line of Abraham I go to heaven because Jesus Christ paid the fine in my place

01:38:55

I needed that forgiveness and so that's my plea to everyone listening that you too might receive what

01:39:04

I received that you too might return from trusting yourself your good works or genealogy trust in Jesus Christ and Jesus alone as a forgiveness of your sin that you'd turn to God and plead with him cry out to him ask him for forgiveness of your sin and receive the the gift he gave to you the penalty that he paid that sets you free and that would be what

01:39:29

I would want to share in the closing minutes that I have now obviously Zadok and I disagree maybe if you already are setting your ways you weren't convinced by either one of us you're still in your ways my biggest concern for you is where will you spend eternity

01:39:43

I'm not worried about what's gonna happen with with America or within this land of or this earth with a future race war or anything else that some would argue here's my greatest concern where will you spend eternity

01:39:58

I plead with you that you might repent and receive

01:40:03

Jesus Christ today have eternal life it's a free gift that's offered to you by God that be the thing that's in my closing minutes

01:40:11

I'll just close out with saying that there will I know we're gonna have a two other guys they're gonna be debating the same topic

01:40:16

I hope that they will conduct themselves as in the same cordial way Zadok and I did

01:40:22

I do want to just let folks know that if if you do want to I will probably post some of these at some point on my podcast the rap report if you don't subscribe to that I try to do things like I did here in giving biblical interpretations to things if you disagree with me

01:40:41

I'm okay with that let me know just bring scripture okay that would be the argument

01:40:46

I'd have so Tom I thank you for hosting this and moderating it

01:40:52

Zadok I really appreciate the cordial manner in which you conducted yourself and the way we were able to have this