Submission: Should Wives Refer to Their Husbands as Lord

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Welcome to Bible Bashed, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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Listen and enjoy this installment of Iron Sharpening Iron as Pastor Tim answers your sincere questions.

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Here's Pastor Tim. On this midweek installment of Iron Sharpening Iron, we're going to be discussing the question, should wives refer to their husband as Lord?

02:03

And now, I don't know about you, Tim, but this is definitely a question that I get a lot from women.

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They're always wondering, hey, shouldn't I be calling my husband Lord? Maybe you might detect the slight hint of sarcasm in my tone, but if we're going to, let's just, maybe this sounds like a ridiculous question, but let's just humor it for a second.

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What do you think? Should women be actually referring to their wives as their

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Lord? I mean, to their husbands, yeah, as their Lord? Well, man.

02:45

Yeah, so I think this is a question that, obviously, I know that many people are dying to have an answer to.

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Roll their eyes out. Roll their eyes out, as far as that goes. The impulse behind this question is obviously what's happening in 1

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Peter 3, 6, and 7. The holy women of old adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands or being subject to their own husbands, verse 5, and then the text says that Sarah obeyed

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Abraham, calling him Lord. And then it goes on to say, and you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

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So the issue there is that Sarah is put forward as an example of godliness, a woman who adorned herself, not just with external adornment, but with the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

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So Sarah is that example that's put forward to women. Then there's two elements in the passage itself which are just exceedingly offensive.

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Now, what we talked about in the last episode was the obey portion. We talked about should women obey their husband as Sarah obeyed

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Abraham. But then the second question behind that is, well, women should follow Sarah's example of calling

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Abraham Lord, so what do we do with that? Should women actually call their husband

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Lord? And I think it's one of those questions that I've talked to people over the years about this kind of subject, and I've brought it up as kind of a curiosity because it seems obvious in the passage that women are being commended to follow example of Sarah, and that has those two functions.

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And so I think it's one of those things I've asked ladies, hey, what do you think, would you ever call your husband Lord like Sarah?

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Do you want to be her daughter and her children? That kind of thing. And I think almost the universal reaction that I've gotten is that that's one of the most ridiculous questions that you could possibly ask, right?

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Yeah. It's the stupidest thing. You must be joking. You must be joking. This is you being absurd and obscene and everything else.

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But then I think it's a fair question. It's one of those questions that it's the kind of question that I think there's not a simple answer to.

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So part of me wants to say yes, and part of me wants to say no. But then it's something

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I've had to think a lot about and try to develop what I think the Bible actually is teaching about at that point.

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And I think that there's just my initial impulse behind the question is that obviously if you want to be like Sarah, you would follow her example.

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This is what you're told to do, right? And so the idea of calling your husband

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Lord, in the Greek it's kurios, is the word, which is just basically your standard word for Lord.

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And so in a certain sense it's like if you're a woman who wants to follow the Bible, it seems strange to have just like a horrified response to that kind of question, as far as that goes.

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It seems like you should at the very least be open to the idea of doing that, even if maybe you think it's cultural bound or anything else.

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So part of it is it seems to me that if you actually understand what marriage is, and you understand what the kind of relationship a wife has with her husband, essentially the kind of relationship a wife has with her husband is one where the husband is a king of his household, if that makes sense.

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So all the language in the passage is the language of kingship or lordship or whatever else, right?

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So you think about wives being subject to your husband, what kind of language is that? It's the language of lordship or kingship within the home.

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And so if you're to be subject to your husband, subject yourself as a citizen would to a king, it seems to me that it wouldn't be some great monstrous crime to use a word that reflects that, as far as that goes.

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Now, the question though is, I think this is the pushback, and this is the question that I've had, that I've had to wrestle with and think through as it relates to this kind of thing.

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It's like, well, is this kind of an archaic term? Does that make sense? Yeah. So you're encouraged to follow her example, but then you're following her example in terms of using the exact phrase that she's used, or is it following her example in that kind of attitude that you should have primarily?

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So just to give you an example, let's say that Abraham was an Archduke of Sarah or something like that, right?

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All right. And then the text read basically, even as Sarah obeyed

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Abraham, calling him Archduke, right? Archduke Abraham.

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And you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything that's frightening. So in that way, you might say, well, is my husband literally an

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Archduke? Do I have the same kind of relationship to my husband as Sarah had to Abraham?

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Can't I just call him a respectful title that kind of matches the kind of relationship we actually have, right?

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So she might have called him Archduke because he was literally an Archduke, but then my husband isn't an

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Archduke, so why would I call him an Archduke, right? Does that make sense? Yeah.

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So I think that there's something to that except for the fact that the word koryos is a word that we still use for God, and we don't feel like anachronistic or strange in using it.

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Does that make sense? Maybe explain that a little more.

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All right. So the word koryos there is the standard word for Lord or Master, if that makes sense.

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So it's just a standard word that we use, and we use it in relation to God, and we don't feel embarrassed.

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We don't feel anachronistic by calling God our Lord, right? Right. We don't feel like strange, like saying

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Lord Jesus or something like that. It's a word that basically is a word that indicates authority, and there's a master over us, and we are servants to that master, and no one really thinks twice about doing that.

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Or if they do, it's because they're not really a believer as far as that goes. And so I don't think that the issue is that this word is entirely anachronistic.

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I think part of the problem is that the word is offensive because it's indicating some sort of authority relationship, and it's the kind of thing that most people want to divest from a husband -wife relationship.

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Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. So what most people think of when they – because we've kind of trained ourself to not think of marriage in an authoritative sense at all, is that most people kind of have a

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Hallmark movie view of what marriage is, where essentially you're looking for your opposite -sex bestie to do life with together forever, right?

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Right. Marriage is an equal partnership. I mean, I think what most people naturally think of when they think of the nature of what marriage is, is just like two opposite -sex besties who are functionally roommates with benefits or something like that, right?

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Mm -hmm. I mean, that's what it is. I mean, that's what it is in the minds of most people. And so then if you were to call your husband

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Lord or something like that, it's like, whoa, that seems very degrading and strange and odd and everything else, right?

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Mm -hmm. It just feels really strange. But then part of the problem is that we're living in a country that has cast off all of these titles, if that makes sense.

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Mm -hmm. And so it used to be that wives would call their husbands sir or something like that.

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Or if you lived in the 50s or you lived in the 40s or whatever, your wife might call you

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Mr. Keurig, right? Okay. And then she might say, sir, yes, sir, to you or something like that.

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Now, one of the things that has happened is we've chucked all the honorifics, essentially, right, as it relates to a marriage relationship.

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Yeah. But the problem is that we still kind of retain them in other areas. Do you know what I mean?

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Mm -hmm. So if you were to talk to the president, you have some Mr. President you're supposed to say as a formal way of showing respect, essentially, right?

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If you talk to the king or queen or whatever, you're supposed to say your majesty or whatever it is that you're supposed to say to the fake queen over there in Britain.

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The figurehead. But in every kind of authority relationship that there really is, like even in the

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South, we used to have something that we had in our mind that young people should say to older people, yes, sir, no, sir, yes, ma 'am, no, ma 'am, that kind of thing, right?

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Mm -hmm. Now, one of the things that's happened when you're living in a society that basically chucks all that is you chuck all the honorifics, if that makes sense.

12:00

Yeah. So that they become less common. They become kind of obnoxious and everything else. And so part of the issue with this idea should a wife call her husband lord, part of me wants to say

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I don't know that the intent – like in the first instance, it's the word koryos.

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So should a wife say to her husband koryos? Well, probably not.

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You need to translate it into a modern equivalent, right? Mm -hmm. If you're going to follow

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Sarah's example, translate it into some modern equivalent. The problem is that there no longer exists a modern equivalent anymore.

12:38

Do you follow what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. All right. So there's no modern equivalent meaning like the idea –

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I think in one of Douglas Wilson's books, like Reforming Marriage, he basically says that a husband is a lord.

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And this was like written 16 years ago or something like that. That's what a husband is. He's the lord of his household.

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He's the lord of his home. So when a wife refers to her husband as husband, she is acknowledging him as her lord.

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That's what the word husband means. And one of the funny things about it is if you actually look up the word lord in the

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Bible – or look up the word lord in the dictionary, one of the things that you're going to find is that the definition of a lord is one having power and authority over others, okay?

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Mm -hmm. Ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience is due. All right?

13:34

And then if you look at number five – or number D, obsolete, a lord is the male head of a household, right?

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Mm -hmm. Obsolete. And usage E, a lord is a husband.

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So it used to be that we understood the word husband itself to be a synonym for the word lord.

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I didn't know that. Even in the English language, we used to think of it that way. But then a lord is obviously obsolete, the male head of a household.

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But now part of the problem is the word husband has been totally divested of every sense of authority in the minds of everyone, right?

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Right. So then like there's no – I think there's no real term anymore that a woman could use to actually refer to her husband in a way that would be understood in some sort of authoritative honorific as far as that goes.

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Now, the problem though is that these honorifics in society, they have a way of forming a person's understanding of the relationship itself.

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So do you want your daughter to call you Harrison? No. What do you want her to call you?

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Dad or father. Why? Something like that. Why? Isn't that you just being tyrannical and oppressive and patriarchal?

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No. I think it communicates the nature of the relationship. Which is what?

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Which is I'm the parent who has authority over my child and my child is subject to me.

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Okay. So what happens in a society is when the honorifics go, then the respect goes typically.

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Right. So think about – churches used to call their pastors pastor, right?

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And part of that was like an exercise in forming their character. And then a lot of your megachurch pastors just want to be called by the first name and everything else.

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Well, part of what happens is then there's a temptation just to view them as just another one of the guys or something like that, right?

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Right. Right. But then the same thing is happening in the home. Typically, people – the kind of kid who just says – like my dad's name is

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Eddie. If I just walk up to him and say, hey, Eddie, how are you doing, Eddie? He'll say, whoa, whoa, what just happened there?

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That's a little weird. That's a little weird. But then if you were to do that to the president, you would just say, hey,

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Joe, what's going on, man? Everyone would think that's weird. You do that to the queen.

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So the thing is we have rules for authority relationships across the board. But then one of the things that we don't want to do is apply it to a husband -wife relationship, right?

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So I think where the offense is – like there's a kind of offense that is had just by even asking the question, should wives call their husband lord?

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And I think the primary kind of offense that is coming from that kind of reaction is the kind of offense that basically says

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I don't actually look at him like a lord. And I don't want to view him that way.

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This is my – you don't understand. This is my marriage. This is my opposite sex bestie. This is my friend.

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This is my lover. This is not my lord or master or authority, kind of thing.

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And so I think the reaction is that way. It's that way in one sense, but I think it's – so like from ladies to men is that there's a kind of reaction to the idea itself of actually using an honorific to your husband because it's like you don't actually view him as a husband in what that means.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, meaning you don't view them as like a lord over you.

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Right, or a person in authority over you. Like you don't view him as a king of the household. You don't view him that way.

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You don't view him the way that Sarah viewed Abraham such that in casual conversation, she would refer to him that way as a perfectly natural thing because that's how she viewed him.

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But then the other issue is that there's most guys who like that would be a joke to call them that because they're such awful leaders, right?

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And they're the servant leader kind of types who are just basically walking up and, hey, what do you want to do, honey? We can do whatever you want.

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That kind of thing. And so like I think – so like some of the offense is him, lord, ha, ha, ha.

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That's a joke, right? And then part of it is no, I don't want to look at him that way, right? Period.

18:16

Even if he isn't. All right. So there's that. Now, just let me change the subject here. Growing up, there was an uncle of mine that wanted me to call him sir because we're living in the south.

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And that seemed respectful and that seemed like – so there's just an expectation on his part.

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And this isn't something that necessarily my parents made me do or something like that. You see older people, you say, yes, sir, no, sir, no, ma 'am.

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They may – towards the early part of our life but not towards that part. And so I think one of the things that happened is him making some sort of demand.

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You need to call us yes, sir, no, sir. It felt like – it's something I resisted, if that makes sense.

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It's something that I resisted and like I thought to myself, there's nowhere in the

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Bible where it says that I need to call people sir. This is just a purely cultural artifact and everything else, right?

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It's just some arbitrary thing that people decided at some point in history to do. And I can respect you.

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I can show you respect without having to say the honorific kind of thing, right? So I can do that.

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But then the problem is that like I think that saying the honorific itself has a way of changing – like bringing to mind the nature of the relationship and actually forming your character to a certain degree.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. So if you say it, like it's like medicine for you that constantly is like – it's like it's formative to you.

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Yeah, it kind of retrains your mind to think in a more appropriate way about the relationship, right?

20:07

Right. So recently I did some work for him and I'm 39 years old. I recently did some work for him and I thought to myself,

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I need to say sir. And I did.

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And you know what? Like when I said it and I made myself say it because I was kind of repenting of how my – you know, my sorry attitude before.

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But it was amazing that like it's like my view of him changed to where I made an effort to say it and it put me in a submissive kind of position.

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Does that make sense? By saying that, it put me in a position of submission that reminded me of like, hey, you know,

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I need to be cautious in how I speak to like someone who's an elder, that kind of thing, right? And I'm not going to fight it like I did in my rebellious youth.

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I'm going to like embrace it and go with it. And I would say that that really was kind of an interesting scenario that happened in my mind.

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All right. So the answer to the question though is I think what needs to happen essentially is that if women are going to follow

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Sarah's example, it wouldn't be the worst idea.

21:23

You know, if they actually want to – if they want to do that, I think having some sort of honorific that they refer to their husband by would do the same thing that my scenario did to me.

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And it's something that we knew in past generations. It's just something that as we've rejected the idea of authority in marriage, those have gone, right?

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We still retain it in other relationships like, you know, like call me dad and mom or daddy and mommy.

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You don't say my name, you know, whatever, like what's wrong with you, right? So like that's the thing.

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I think like if we could bring that back, I think that that's entirely biblical.

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That's something that like God – I think God's designed honorifics to function in that particular way.

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Now the question though is which one, right? Which honorific? Yeah, which one?

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You know, so like was there a command specifically to keep on saying koryos, you know? Well, now we have to translate it into another language and like what is the appropriate translation?

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And you know, is it husband? And I would say that husband has lost all the sense of respect that it used to have, right?

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Yeah. And so, I mean, you can try to reform your mind to say, okay, husband, you know, and I know what that means.

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And maybe that's sufficient, you know? But I think, you know, I think even within the passage though you have husbands like, you know, a

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Greek word for husbands is being used and a word for Lord being used. And so I think, you know, like I don't know that there's a whole lot of options.

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I think, you know, if you say master or something like that, right? That would probably communicate things that are more salacious in nature, right?

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So I don't know if that's a good one. I think Lord is like a word that still has the meaning of a husband.

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It still has a meaning of a ruler by hereditary right to whom service and obedience are due.

23:23

I think it, you know, it still has the – I mean, there's the obsolete, the male head of a household. I think it's –

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I think it might be that if we are trying to pick an honorific, you know, it would be nice if the church, you know, would just embrace that again, right?

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As the way that we do it. What we had before was sir,

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I think. Sir was that in Christian culture and in our country and that's gone away.

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And so I don't know that it would be – that wouldn't be – like sir would be maybe something that could function in a similar way.

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Does that make sense? So the short answer to the question is I think – I do think that if there was some kind of honorific like that, that could be comparable, that does clearly communicate notions of authority and hierarchy.

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I think what that would do would be to strengthen marriage. I don't think it would disrupt it. And what most people think is that that would be a death blow to marriages.

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But I think that would actually help if that makes sense. So that's my thought.

24:30

Yeah, you know, that's something really interesting to think about overall. And, you know, it seems like such a normal thing.

24:40

And pretty much – Every area. I guess at least most other areas of life except for marriage.

24:47

Marriage, yeah, I think we've kind of been trained by the hallmark. Well, I used to call my coach Coach. In the

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Disney movies. Right? I used to call my coach Coach. I called him Coach Speck. You know, I didn't call him

24:58

Bill. Hey, Bill. Yeah, because that would – I mean in a certain sense, you're really being pretty disrespectful by doing that.

25:07

You know, and so I think that is a really interesting thing. And hopefully what we're talking about, while at first might get, you know, an eye roll and maybe a, well, you know,

25:21

Tim's finally lost it. Probably so. He's finally gone on a deep end. Hey, I lost it a long time ago, man. Well, that's okay.

25:28

This is nothing. Hopefully for some of the people who might have, you know, thought that going into it, hopefully you've given them something to –

25:39

Think about. I can't think of a better honorific than that, but like, you know. Right.

25:45

I'm open to suggestions, but I think, you know, some sort of honorific like that that communicates authority would –

25:52

I think – let me challenge the ladies who might be offended by this. I want to challenge you.

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Here's my challenge to you. If you're tempted to think it's absolutely absurd, this is like, you know, someone who's advocating wife spanking or something like that.

26:07

Here's my challenge to you. Like, I would challenge you to, like, read 1 Peter 3 every day and call your husband

26:16

Lord. Like, at first it may be an ironic way, but ask God – like, just do it.

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Just do it. And read the verse every day and do it. And ask

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God to, you know, change your heart, not make it so hostile to that idea. Because you obviously should recognize that there's a sense in which

26:34

He is the Lord of your household and the Lord of your home. And the ruler of your home.

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And, like, that's what being subject means. I would challenge anyone to do that for 30 days.

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Read that verse every day for 30 days and ask God, hey, I'm going to try to say this with my words, but I would ask you to help me to think about Him that way, too.

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Like, as if, like, He's in authority over me and not to fight it and not to embrace it. And then

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I would say, after 30 days, ask your husband, did you feel like I did a better job following you this month or not?

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You know? And I guarantee you he'll say yes. Well, there you go.

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There you go, ladies who are listening. The gauntlet's thrown down. There's your homework.

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There's the challenge. We want to thank you guys for listening to this episode, and we look forward to our next discussion with you.