May 28, 2009

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday Afternoon, just want to make sure that all our friends up in Salt Lake all three of you

No We're heading up there tomorrow going to be speaking on Saturday actually, but tomorrow

I believe I will be recording a television program on the subject of the reliability of the

New Testament as a whole in light of Especially issues regarding Mormonism.

That is one of the two topics. I will be addressing on Saturday at the compassionate boldness

Conference in Draper information is found on our website. So if you would like to Join us this weekend

Take a look at that information. I was on iron sharpens iron discussing that today I mentioned this on a most recent blog article even had

Alma all read call into the program that I forgot to tell you that Good old Alma called in. Did you just catch when he was on Jason Wallace's program?

He's one of the three Nephites now A Snowy white hair just just remember the three named

Nephites. All right, remember when they would walk by Didn't have he'd have to work on that but the snowy white hair is definitely three

Nephite ish. So And people who don't know Mormonism have no idea of why are your knees fighting and why three times?

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's one tall Nephite Don't recall. He was pretty tall when there were three of them.

Well, I'm talking about Alma Oh Me I remember looking up at him. Yeah, you do.

Yeah, so what so, yeah, okay Yeah, but you know, I was really disappointed He couldn't remember what the subject of the

Bible study was at DL's house that one time that he attended and then again I only have a big recollection of what

I think it was Galatians 1 Yeah, I think it's glaciers 189. I think that was the night that we did that I really do but anyway, that is neither here nor there we're gonna be up in Salt Lake City and If you're gonna be attending the conference, please stop by and say hello and That will be you know,

Roy in channel really is is just looking for Giving me every possible reason even while multitasking to kick him out of channel.

It's just incredible I don't I don't get this guy. He's he's just Looking for it. Anyway right before the program.

I Mean just a few minutes for the program He could have come in earlier to give me this information but but John Mark comes into the end of the end of the channel and he drops this

URL and He knows I'm gonna have to listen to it He knows I'm gonna have to use it, but he drops it in here.

It likes it like seven minutes before the hour So I I Cued up The reason being

I didn't start with the Radio Free Geneva theme today But I do want to continue some things

I had some some rather interesting Clips here this one. I did not get to before this is the the next

Segment of the the Sunday School series that William Lane Craig was doing Seemingly something got missed because he made reference to their having dealt with Ephesians 1 before this and I can't find it

If anybody knows where it is, please let me know Because I'd love to hear how he deals with Ephesians 1 and respond to it

But here he wasn't feeling real well, and he has a hard time talking So it's sort of staccato and choppy and there's not a lot really to interact with except for this one section

Now listen carefully this one was really interesting I think some of you folks over at Westminster in Escondido will find this interesting as well

Options are being put on the table I spoke at Westminster Seminary in San Diego a few years ago and these folks hadn't even heard of Molinism they were so out of touch with you know where contemporary debate was so I'm I'm glad at least to hear things are on The table now now to catch that From his perspective.

That's where that's where the debate is is is Molin ism now I really don't think that that's the case, but Those folks out they had never even heard of Molin ism and Out there

Westminster Seminary now of course all the folks Westminster Seminary are gonna be going No, we're well aware of it and unlike certain people who call themselves

Protestants. We realized the Catholics got rid of that silliness Wait we're not interested in picking up on what the

Catholics got rid of a long time ago But that there are others who are which brings up The URL that was dropped in the channel exactly seven minutes prior to the class at the beginning of class beginning of the dividing line and So I have only listened to a portion of it, but what

I already heard was enough to Go I think we'll listen to this together a journey of discovery together this is also

William Lane Craig and a Recording he did called what about Catholicism now.

I've been Playing his Presentation on this subject and saying see folks

He's basically saying we're with Rome on this We make some changes. We've got some disagreements and so right before the program.

I ran out and I grabbed Frank Beckwith book Oh, I forgot to grab that.

Oh, we'll have to do it when I get back Frank Beckwith was on Hugh Hewitt's program day for yesterday And Hugh Hewitt is clearly on the way to Rome He's clearly on the way to Rome he's a

PC USA elder and you know, there are still a few conservative PC USA folks left but He just could not say enough good things about return to Rome which

Just think about that for a moment a Presbyterian elder who can't see through the the surface level

Argumentation of this little booklet and it just makes you go Sadness But in Beckwith's book there is a quote from Karl Truman the professor of historical theology and church history

Westminster Theological Seminary and I've had some discussion about this quote with various of the gentlemen who are contributing to the response to Frank Beckwith's book.

I've finished one of those chapters that I'm writing Truman was reviewing the

Mark Knoll Nystrom book Is the Reformation over an evangelical assessment of contemporary

Rome Catholicism? I I wrote a very brief review of that for the CRA Journal. I only had I think 700 words

It just wasn't even enough to barely even give the information All I could do is give just one example of just how bad this book is in the sense of how

Unfairly it deals with anyone who would even begin to stand on a historical

Footing in regards to Roman Catholicism I mean, it just it just any convert is a brilliant person, but MacArthur and Sproul are morons.

It's just it's horrible but anyway Truman Wrote the following in in regards this book and I've gotten interesting responses from the other gentleman.

I'm gonna give you my take But clearly Frank Beckwith found this I'll just read what he says is on page 83

I single out this review because of its concluding paragraph, which rocked me to the core Which rocked me to the core?

All right. Here's the concluding paragraph When I finished reading the book I have to confess this is

Truman speaking about the Knoll book when I finished reading the book I have to confess that I agreed with the authors in that it does indeed seem that the

Reformation is over for large Tracks of evangelicalism yet the authors themselves do not draw the obvious conclusion from their own arguments

Every year I tell my Reformation history class that Roman Catholicism is at least in the West the default position

Rome has a better claim to historical continuity and institutional unity than any Protestant denomination

Let alone the strange hybrid that is evangelicalism in the light of these facts Therefore we need good solid reasons for not being

Catholic not being a Catholic should in other words Be a positive act of will and commitment something we need to get out of bed determined to do each and every day

It would seem however that if Nolan Nystrom are correct many who call themselves evangelical really lack any good reason for such an act of will and The obvious conclusion therefore should be that they do the decent thing and rejoin the

Roman Catholic Church I cannot go down that path myself primarily because of my view of justification by faith and because my ecclesiology

But those who reject the former and lack the latter have no real basis upon which to perpetuate

What is in effect an act of schism on their part for such the Reformation is over for me? The fat lady has yet to sing.

In fact, I am not sure at this time that she has even left her dressing room and quote now

Some have said well What do we mean by default position?

Well, he said he was saying that to his Reformation history class and so I understand him to be saying that Rome was in the

West first and was the institutional church first and So to not be a

Roman Catholic requires you to make an act of will that's what a Protestant is a person protesting a person reacting against something and He I don't believe that he is saying well

It's the default position if you're biblical or anything like that at all And certainly I would not be able to to use the terminology here

I cannot go down that path myself primarily because of my view of justification by faith and because of my ecclesiology

See that that sounds like well, I have this view of These two things and that's the only reason

I can't go that direction You all know me well enough that what I would say in that situation is

I cannot go down that path because I cannot abandon the gospel of Jesus Christ and embrace a false hope but that's politically incorrect and hopefully that's what he means, but for some reason

Most people who teach the seminaries just don't want to say that anymore. So anyway The point that I agree with Truman on is this

He's right for a large portion of what calls itself evangelicalism

They have no connection the Reformation They have no passion for the issues the

Reformation. They have no passion for solo scriptura They have no passion for the five solas

They don't care about solo scriptura or soli deo gloria or solo gratia a solo fidei solus

Christus They don't they don't even know what those things are They don't know why they're not

Catholics other than the fact that they're not It's just a matter of taste well, you know,

I like praise bands and the PowerPoint presentations, you know I I don't like I'm allergic to candles, you know,

I mean there are people Who are not Catholic for that kind of reason and that's a lousy reason to not be anything to be perfectly honest with you.

I Agree with him that for the vast majority of evangelicals The Reformation is over because it never began for them

They've never been taught about it. They have no passion about its issues and So I would say a lot of evangelicals are not the offspring are not the children of the

Reformation at all if you do not have a passionate commitment to the principles of Reformation then don't claim the the reformers as Your quote -unquote

Source origin parents ancestors or anything else and that's one of the three things I brought up about Frank Beckwith He himself admits he he never had any passion for solo scriptura.

He couldn't even find a definition of it. He liked He didn't leave Roman Catholicism because he found

Roman Catholicism to have a false gospel to be opposed to the truth He just preferred another place to go and if you are not a

Roman Catholic out of mere preference taste I Don't like the smells and bells where I think men look silly in long outfits with backward collars

That's not a reason to leave Roman Catholicism People will tell you ask the people that I have talked to About the subject who are

Roman Catholics. They're having a problem with Roman Catholicism. They talk to me and And there will

I could call people as witness. I Have told Roman Catholics The only real reason to leave the

Roman Catholic Church is because you have encountered the gospel of Jesus Christ I'm not looking to get people out of Rome just simply for the sake of getting people out of Rome.

It's a matter of the gospel And I can I can I'm sitting here right now thinking of three different people that I know of That I could tell you

I told them that and they would confirm that so with that in mind you can see why

I am somewhat passionate about the issue of theology matters and The people who agree with Rome about Natural law who agree with Rome about the nature of grace who agree with Rome about the nature of man and They have an apologetic that is hamstrung by that theology

Have little to say about Roman Catholicism and no reason to engage Rome Outside of well, you know, we can discuss some, you know little differences, but you know, it's your opinion my opinion blah blah blah blah blah blah and That's what you hear from Norman Geisler and William Lane Craig and Here is

William Lane Craig answering the question. What about Catholicism and like I said Just started listening to it in the first few minutes.

I went oh I think we need to listen to this because this is confirming everything I said based upon what

I was listening to in the soteriological discussion the Sunday school class and Again I'm not doing this just because all of a sudden

I got some desire to go after William Lane Craig or something. I don't I Doubt even care less what in the world

I'm saying about it, but it's illustrative It shines a light upon why theology matters and why the theology you hold

Has to if you're consistent determine your apologetic methodology it must

So let's let's listen in here and make comments as we move along essentials and things like that why don't you take a stab at this and sorry to put you in such a hot seat and guide us through the sometimes troubled waters of a relationship between Protestants and Catholics.

Well, Kevin, I am a Protestant and therefore I Obviously have some disagreements with Catholic doctrine

But having said that I'm also not a Presbyterian, I'm not an

Episcopalian. I so I have disagreements with those Denominations as well and catch that so Rome is just another denomination it's like the difference between Baptists and Presbyterians or between Episcopalians and Presbyterians just just another denomination not an issue of gospel

You know Anathema's, ah, come on, you know as I was back the Reformation William Lane Craig is not a child of Reformation.

He is not a Protestant. He's protesting nothing He's not protesting anything. I Think that is that is

As obvious as it comes So the fact that I have some disagreements with Catholics and therefore could not

I think in all good conscience Be a Catholic myself isn't to say that I regard

Catholics as somehow sub -christian or or Un -christian any more than I think

Presbyterians and Episcopalians are so there you go That's why he doesn't have any problem using the

Council of Trent's soteriology as The blueprint that he just tweaks according to his taste in regards to the gospel.

It's not a false gospel They're just as saved as an Episcopalian or a

Presbyterian is It's just some just some differences of opinion now, I Don't I would love to hear how a

Roman Catholic Responds to that because because I mean that doesn't that does not show even a meaningful understanding of Rome's own claims.

I Mean Rome isn't saying we're just some other denomination this is mother church and Some of these groups he's mentioning are not even considered to be true churches from Rome's perspective

They do not even have a valid ecclesiology but most important thing is The gospel can't define it well enough can't define it clearly enough to even identify

Rome's gospel with its mass and purgatory and indulgences and and ever and it's altar

Christus priests and everything else That's that's not enough to actually violate the gospel So we could talk if you wanted to about some of the areas where I myself

Cannot in good conscience affirm Catholic doctrine, but I cannot in good conscience affirm

Catholic doctrine Dr. Craig, could you in good conscience agree with the Apostle Paul that there's anything that's anathema?

What what would be anathema in the gospel? What were the Judaizers doing? Dr. Craig that the

Roman Catholics haven't tripled quadrupled What what were they doing

Was Paul just over the top when he anathematized the Judaizers in Galatia, or is it just adding circumcision?

You can add all sorts of other things The entire sacramental system of Rome you can add that that's okay.

That doesn't fall under the same condemnation What? Would require what would it take for you to join in the apostolic?

Condemnation with the anathema of something as a false gospel. I would like to know Evidently, maybe it's just the

Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses or something. It's you know way out there someplace Who knows but on the other hand?

I do want to affirm that my Fundamental goal with reasonable faith is to defend what

CS Lewis called mere Christianity Which is the Christianity that is common to all of the great branches of Christendom whether they be

Catholic Protestant or Orthodox or Coptic now catch that because if you're if you're listening carefully

You heard somebody else say that on the stand to reason interview

Yeah, that's what Frank Beckwith said. Yeah. I've always viewed myself as sort of a mere

Christianity type guy I've never used myself as a Protestant apologist. I'm not gonna be a Catholic apology. It's that stuff we all share in common folks simple question here

What happened to the gospel? Evidently, the only thing we actually share and got in common is

The Trinity I guess that's it mere Christianity. That's that's

So what are we proclaiming to folks? I mean if we all stand together in this mere Christianity lump

What message do we have for the world since it can't be the gospel because we don't have the same one

So, what do we say to people remember when I asked Tim Staples that almost decade ago now

I wrote back to Tim now. I wonder how many weeks has been He responds about every three months or so But what

I said to him was so Tim if you and I are staying outside an abortion clinic together and And you and I agree

That abortions murder it's terrible and In fact, I have a clip maybe we'll get to it later on from Patrick Madrid We're almost everything

Patrick says in this clip I agree with I thought I might play that just so that people can realize that you know, just because you believe someone is

Preaching a false gospel doesn't mean that that every single thing that person says is wrong about everything

There that there is that attitude out there that you can't agree with anyone on anything if you feel they're you know completely off base theologically anyway,

I Asked him staples. We're staying outside that abortion clinic Someone walks up to us and says what must

I do to be saved? You and I could give him fundamentally different answers, aren't we and Thankfully back then anyways

Tim was was straightforward enough to say we certainly are We certainly are and that to me has always been the issue and maybe

I'm just naive Maybe someone can explain to me You know that the gospel isn't the big thing that you know all those anathemas of Paul Paul was just a little bit over -the -top

We don't have to worry about that The gospel hasn't been clearly explained enough in Scripture.

And so we don't really know what it is but I still

Seem to get the very strong impression from reading the New Testament that that's not what the

Apostles believed and That the gospel is not Something you can just put off to the side and say, oh, you know, hey, you know

We can have our own preferences on that. But let's let's just let's just not let that divide us as Long as Galatians remains in the canon.

That is not going to be An option for me. That's my burdenist is what unites us rather than what divides us

You're already gonna draw criticism from those who say well you need to take a harder tougher line on Catholicism because it distorts the gospel and so on so you can't win in this

I think however We can win by maybe just discussing some of the places where Protestants and Catholics Disagree Protestants are just Catholics who think that the

Catholic Church needs some reformation Perhaps, you know in Catholics now since Vatican to regard

Protestants as separated brethren They do not condemn Protestants they think that Protestants are our

Christian brothers and sisters but Separated from the the church the true church that Christ is established.

So we certainly are living in a new era I think in which Catholic Protestant relations are much friendlier than they have been in the past I see a lot.

What does that mean? I mean, I keep hearing people saying this and you know

Vatican to changed everything and wow, look at what they said about Martin Luther and look at the

Accords at the Lutherans and stuff so much of that And and yeah sure

Rome has changed Rome has to change because Rome is now filled with a bunch of universalists in essence but the fact remains that Rome makes claims about Continuity is the one true church and infallibility in the person of the

Pope and We know what Rome has taught in the past is William Lane Craig going to defend the idea that Rome has now

Abandoned it's it's changed its teachings in that way I don't get that feeling but again, what does any of this have to do with the real issue and that is the gospel and That you well you have to be harder you mean more consistent you mean have a different focus that is the gospel

Well, I suppose that's being harder but you see the assumption in the interviewers voice and questions is that if you're going to take a

Strong standard Roman Catholicism say this is a false gospel. It means you have to be a mean nasty terrible horrible person I was

I was informed today that a Certain LDS person communicated with some people at farms and Immediately informed some folks that he would not debate me because I am a mean rude

Terrible horrible nasty person and I would like to write to this LDS person say could you show me a single debate?

where I was I Behaved in that way in any of the people with any of the Mormons that I have I've debated with the same thing with Roman Catholics anyone who who just watches the debates that Mitch Pacquiao and I have done

No, you don't have to be a nasty horrible just disgusting person and still

You don't have to compromise the gospel in the process It can be done But evidently by definition people say it just can't more

Bible reading among my Catholic friends You have often complained that they weren't encouraged to read the

Bible perhaps growing up and I don't know what that is But I've seen a lot of fruit there from our

Catholic friends getting into the word and digging in themselves Yes, and that can only be a very positive development.

I think as they Become familiar with the Bible and submit themselves to what the

Bible has to teach I think that we can all rejoice in in that Hello Again, I don't want to be naive.

I don't want to be unkind here, but that's so naive That is so naive that that does not even take into consideration the

Roman Catholic understanding of how you're supposed to read the Bible What did Vatican to say?

About how are you even supposed to read the Bible who has the right to interpret Scripture the Magisterium of the church? That's how it's gonna be presented now.

Yeah, I encourage anyone to read the Bible but you have to deal with Rome's own claims denying solo scriptura and Asserting the tradition of the church

But why won't people do this because they're not actually children of the Reformation. That's why what would keep you or prevent you from being a

Catholic well, one of the difficulties that I have would be with the doctrine of Justification as it was enunciated at the

Council of Trent now immediately again Especially if you've read

Beckwith's book you're sitting here going Man this this is identical These are the same answers

Frank Beckwith was giving before he went back to Rome now. I don't know William Lane Craig's Theological history.

I don't know what he was born. Yes. I have no earthly idea. I Really don't spend a lot of time looking into such things

I'm sure somebody's gonna write and tell me now. It's just fine. That's great That's that's how you learn, but I don't know what his background is, but these are the same answers

That Frank Beckwith was giving and one of the things that we're having to point out and and we'll point out in a number of number of different ways,

I'm sure is that the reason Justification by faith is such a dividing line is

Not to be found simply in the doctrine of justification by faith Justification by faith is a concept a doctrine a belief that is based upon Preceding issues that for some reason these folks don't seem to think are that important Justification by faith defined by solo scriptura justification by faith defined by sola gratia a view of grace that does not embrace

The Roman Catholic view of grace, but William Lane Craig does and so you see

Even though he talks about justification by grace. I would argue that the reformed doctrine of justification by grace differs at important and key junctures from a

Non -reformed doctrine of justification by grace and I would say to you one is defensible and one is not

With that we're gonna take our break and then continue on with listening to William Lane Craig discussing

Roman Catholicism and hopefully shedding some light on this important issue. We'll be right back Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources

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This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Thank you Back to the dividing line.

We're listening to William Lane Craig discussing What about Roman Catholicism? Illustration once again not trying to pick on poor dr.

Craig, but an illustration of a wide swath of evangelicalism That simply is disconnected from the

Reformation And I think as our Truman said for these folks Reformation is over They they it's a matter of taste.

Well, I can't go there because this because that and And once you join Arminianism, or in his case,

Molinism, to the shell of Reformed theology in the form of justification by faith,

I'm sorry, but you just don't have the same thing. It is not the same package.

And so anyways, we pick up with that. Which is one of the most important Catholic councils for enunciating

Catholic doctrine. In the Council of Trent, it has a description of how justification takes place.

And it makes it very clear that our response to God's grace is just that, that God takes the initiative,

God's grace leads out. We then respond to God's grace, and he infuses into us his justifying grace.

And what this grace does is give us the power to perform good works, which in turn merit eternal life.

Now it's that last bit that really gives me pause. Gives me pause.

That last bit. Not all the stuff that came before, because he agrees with Rome on all of that.

Now, why does he not say, oh, and by the way, if the Council of Trent, you're justified by baptism.

I mean, that's what Trent said, isn't it? There's so much more here. I'm sorry, maybe

I'm wrong. But since I don't hear him enunciating these things, it really makes me wonder how well he really understands

Roman Catholic theology. The traditional theology of Trent, the multitude of ways in which that's interpreted today,

I just don't know. I've heard a lot of William Lane Craig debates, but I don't think

I've ever heard him debate a Catholic. Why would he? That's the whole thing. Why would he even bother to do that?

And that's interesting, because those of you who've read Return to Rome, isn't it interesting that even though Beckwith was himself not reformed, when he writes his apologetic portion, who is he always responding to?

Reformed. He's not responding to the others. There's nothing to respond to. They're not presenting a meaningful apologetic.

All the rest of it, I think, is great. But to catch that, all the rest of it,

I think, is great. Everything else Rome said, but that one last little thing about meriting eternal life by doing good works in a state of grace, that's just the one thing.

If we can just get rid of that one thing, two things. First of all, that is not the most fundamental problem with the

Roman Catholic doctrine of justification. I mean, the same Council of Trent has the

Mass and transubstantiation and the repetition sacrifice and all the sacerdotal stuff. That's all there, and that hasn't even been mentioned yet.

Maybe he'll get to it in a moment, maybe so. That's the first thing.

But secondly, all the rest of that's just great.

Think about that for just a moment. Think about how far that means

Dr. Craig is from Geneva, from the Reformation in that sense.

And then, once again, put that all together. And I've had so many people say,

I just don't understand why you guys are so different and how you defend the existence of God. Now you're hearing why.

Now you're hearing why. It is a fundamental foundational difference. I don't think of the good works we do as being meritorious of eternal life.

That seems to me to teach salvation by works. If you say that God gives me the power to do meritorious works that then earn salvation, that seems to me to undercut the doctrine of salvation by grace alone.

Now what our Catholic friends will very quickly say is, ah, but these works are only done by God's grace.

It is God's grace that gives you the power and the drive to do these meritorious works.

And so in one sense it wants to say, no, no, these works are only grace.

It is ultimately grace and not works. But nevertheless, the bottom line, it seems to me, still remains that whether through the grace of God or not,

I perform works which then merit eternal life. And I don't think as biblical

Christians that we want to say that. And so that is one of the aspects. No, we don't want to say that.

But are we willing to say that that is false? Maybe I'm just I was just born in the wrong era or something, you know, but I don't get this.

Well, you know, we don't we don't want to say that. I mean, Joseph Smith, we have imagined, supposed that God was

God from all eternity. I'll refute that idea and take away the veils that you may see. Well, we don't want to say that.

Yeah, we don't want to say that, but we better say that that is soul damning heresy.

If we care about God's truth, we care about people anyways. That may not be popular in our society, but I just don't get this.

Well, you know, we don't want to say that that that would make us queasy, might make us feel uncomfortable.

Specs of Catholic doctrine that gives me real pause, Bill, I cannot count the number of times when

I've gotten in discussions with Catholic friends who have said to me, Kevin, just what, by the way, what is it that distinguishes you and me?

What do you guys believe? They want to know what the differences are. Where do you think in opportunities like that?

Where should we go first to justification? Is that? Yes, I think that's the bottom line, really,

Kevin. I mean, other things such as church government or the sacraments or other sorts of doctrines are important, but really at the heart of it is going to be justification because justification by grace alone through faith,

I think, is the central Protestant insight, and I think it's a biblical insight.

And therefore, that's something I think that we need to insist upon. Now, what I find in talking to Catholic friends is that their understanding of the doctrine of justification at Trent is really the same as mine.

They don't think that they earn salvation. They don't think that they perform meritorious works that are in salvation.

The way they interpret it is that God, by his grace, gives me the power to live a good life, and therefore

I go to heaven and it's all due to God's grace. It's holy by grace alone.

So the line of distinction becomes very blurred or very fine. What experience has been his?

That leaves me stuttering in regards to the sacramentalism of Rome, the concept of purgatory, the concept of indulgences.

It also leaves me stuttering that while he is affirming the material concept of the

Reformation, the material principle, that he hasn't even mentioned the formal principle.

And it really makes me wonder if he's not in the same boat once again that Frank Beckwith was in.

I mean, they had a lot of connections. They spoke in a lot of the same places, a lot of the same times. And it really makes me wonder, where is

William Lane Craig on the Sola Scriptura? What's his understanding? Would he agree with the discussion found in Return to Rome starting on page, let's see here, was it before this?

Looking, looking, looking. It must have been just a little bit before this. Yeah, there it is.

Starting on page 79, where he says, one may wonder whether Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura or scripture alone factored in all this.

To be blunt, it didn't. Primarily because over the years I could not find an understanding or definition of Sola Scriptura convincing enough that did not have to be so qualified that it seemed to me, it wasn't a standard.

That's Beckwith. I would hope that that's not where he would be. But the very fact that he doesn't even mention it does not even seem to see how central

Sola Scriptura is to the conflict with Rome, once again, leaves me going, oh, this is scary to listen to.

And I think that in many cases, practicing Catholics may not be much different than Protestants.

Do you see what I mean? There may be these council conciliar statements on paper, but the way certain born -again

Catholics really live and what they really believe may be much closer to what

Protestants think than what these conciliar statements literally say. You know who else is grinding their teeth right now?

Any meaningful Roman Catholic apologist. Any meaningful Roman Catholic who understands their own theology is sitting there going, oh, wait a minute.

No, you're selling a short here, man. Protestants are often drawn to the beauty, reverence, and the high church style of the

Catholic Church. And they think, well, maybe we're a little too loosey -goosey in ours. And they're drawn to that from time to time.

But we still need to look at doctrine. I think so, Kevin. That's the bottom line.

I mean, I am tremendously attracted to this great tradition, this great historic

Catholic tradition, and to the great thinkers that have graced that church, and to the beauty of the worship service, of the ceremonies, the buildings, and so forth.

I do find all of that very attractive. So I can understand people who would want to be

Catholic because of those things. But ultimately, it does get down to doctrine. And if you can't in good conscience subscribe to the doctrine, then

I think you shouldn't be a Catholic. And similarly, I couldn't be a

Presbyterian, or an Anglican, or an Episcopalian, because I just don't believe the doctrines that these denominations teach.

And so even though I may be very attracted to them in other ways, I couldn't be a member of that denomination.

So it's not the gospel. The gospel does not define this. Because unless he's saying, it sounds to me like he's saying that this justification by faith thing, very, very important, very biblical, but it actually isn't a dividing line, unless he's saying that Presbyterians don't believe that.

Because he's twice now, or maybe three times, paralleled the difference between being a

Roman Catholic with being a Presbyterian or an Episcopalian. Leaves me, again, just in utter shock.

What can I say? I did want to get to this one. And I do want to,

I said earlier, I thought I'd play this so that you could have an example of,

I don't always just disagree with people. I think a lot of what Patrick Madrid says in this next clip is actually accurate, true.

You can appreciate it. Insights that I myself have shared. And it is interesting.

The criticism, I got to give Patrick props on this. I've got a lot of reasons to think that Patrick has some things he needs to deal with in some of the stuff he's done in the past.

But I'll give him props where it's needed. He will criticize the Roman Catholics here. And properly so, by the way.

But here is a clip that was sent to me about hate speech and the hate speech laws.

And this is Patrick Madrid commenting on that. And then he's going to, he's going to comment on why he feels the United States is where it is.

He's going to put the blame on the Catholics, basically, which is interesting. Obviously, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.

But let's just let's just listen in. My impression is that the hate speech, quote, unquote, laws are designed to muzzle people from saying things like abortion is murder or to speak out on moral issues, to defend the

Ten Commandments, to defend the revelation of God in the Old and the New Testament when it comes to sexual ethics and morality in general.

When people begin saying those things, those are labeled hate speech by the purveyors of these laws because they they cannot argue adequately against them.

And so rather than try to intellectually challenge and take on and critique on an intellectual basis, the merits or demerits of, let's say, in the case of the

Catholic Church, it's teaching on the the evil of abortion or the evil of cloning or the evil of fetal stem cell research rather than engage on the level of actual fact and logic and that sort of thing.

They simply try to shut down the other side by labeling that that speech as hate speech.

And that's, of course, absurd. But people in power often do a lot of absurd things.

So that's, I think, the nature of what we're up against. Now, I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. In fact,

I'm not even inclined to think it's going to get better at all. I think things are going to get worse. And my impression is that the reason that they're going to get worse is because too many

Catholics have been lazy, complacent, sit back and do nothing kind of Catholics.

And the best example of that that I can offer that comes to my mind is the fact that over 50 percent of Catholics in this most recent election voted for candidates.

And I'll say candidates plural because there are many different candidates. They voted for candidates who actively are doing the work of the devil, candidates who are actively promoting evil in many different forms and across many different spectrums.

The evil of abortion would be foremost among them. When you have more than 50 percent of the

Catholic Church in the United States intentionally voting for people who are doing the work of the devil, this is why we're in this situation.

So I don't expect things to get any better anytime soon. The best that we can do is to...

Now, I just want to stop right there. It must be incredibly frustrating for Roman Catholics to be experiencing this because obviously more than half

Roman Catholics in the United States clearly vote in a way completely different from the theology of their church.

Now, I'm not trying to rub salt in a wound, but I think it is very, very relevant to point out that this same man who recognizes how relevant that is, who recognizes that that makes no sense at all, is the very same man who has for many years repeated the phrase sola scriptura, the blueprint for anarchy.

Mr. Madrid, your church in the United States is in anarchy and you can't blame sola scriptura, can you?

Maybe it's time for you to give up that really bad argument.

Maybe it's time for you to realize that that argument, well, it's because of sola scriptura, you all disagree.

Well, what's the reason for you guys? Isn't the Roman Catholic Church's position on abortion clear enough?

I know what it is and I'm not a Roman Catholic. But your Roman Catholics don't seem to care, despite how clearly

Rome has expressed its understanding of the issue. And so if that can happen on your side of the aisle, then

Patrick, isn't it time for you to wake up and realize that the argument that you've been using over and over and over again is simply bogus?

It wasn't good the first time you enunciated it, it isn't good today, and you yourself have proven it in a situation like this.

I feel sorry for you, because I can guarantee you 50 % of reformed

Baptists didn't do that. If 2 % vote that direction, I would honestly be surprised.

I really would. But don't you see that this situation demonstrates that one of your favorite arguments against sola scriptura is vacuous, empty, get rid of it, abandon it.

Obviously in a nonviolent, peaceful, legal way, we should always do the best we can with the tools that are available to us to stand up to tyranny in all of its forms.

And this is a form of tyranny, no doubt about that. We cannot be cowed into silence, even though somebody says, you know, when you say that abortion is evil, that's hate speech.

Well, I don't care what you call it, but I'm going to continue saying the truth, whether you like it or not. We have to be willing to have the courage of our convictions.

And as time goes on, I'm afraid that more and more of us are going to have to make these difficult decisions. Do I shut up or do

I speak up? And so my advice would be, you know, let's all of us resolve to, and I cannot emphasize this strongly enough, in a peaceful, legal, nonviolent way, let us all resolve to speak the truth no matter the cost, to not be afraid to speak the truth, to not be afraid to say what needs to be said, even though you may be called all kinds of names.

What did Jesus say? He said, blessed are you when they hate you and persecute you and do all kinds of terrible things to you for my name's sake.

You know, those are the kinds of promises that he made. And we're living in a time where we're likely to see more of that.

So those are my thoughts off the cuff. I wish I could be more optimistic. Believe me, I really do.

It sounds a lot like what I have said over and over and over and over and over and over again on this program and on my blog in regards to the death of free speech and the attempts of those who, as Patrick put it, are doing the devil's work to silence anyone who would point out what they're doing and to touch that conscience, which they are so actively attempting to suppress.

I spoke on this subject last evening. For some reason, when I walked into the church, I forgot to set up my little video camera to record it, which

I had brought to do. But that's what happens. But I spoke on how we can use the current situation in regards to Proposition 8 in California, go to Matthew Chapter 19, go through Jesus' doctrine of what marriage is, and use that as an opportunity of witness.

But you know what? There are people who get fired for doing stuff like that. There are people, but we just don't want you on here because of your hateful attitudes.

That's becoming more and more the situation that we are facing. And there's something else that I think needs to be addressed here.

When you hear someone like Patrick Madrid saying that, here's the modernistic mindset at work, when both

I and Patrick Madrid are being attacked by the world for saying abortion is evil and homosexuality destroys human life, then what's the natural result of that?

The natural result is that we start thinking that the theological differences are not important.

Hey, he's getting attacked. I'm getting attacked. Let's just all hold hands. And what goes out the door?

The gospel. The gospel. That's why, no matter how strongly you feel about abortion, and I don't know if I pretty sure

I gave it to you, but I have the audio of that debate

I did on WNCA with the United Presbyterian Minister on abortion. I tracked it down.

I thought it was last year. I thought for certain that I gave it to you. I need to track it down again if I didn't. Because if you want to hear me in absolute merciless flame mode as a debater, if you want to hear me embarrass someone, listen to me debate somebody on abortion.

I give no quarter and I'm merciless because they're promoting murder.

That's all there is to it. And so you cannot question my dedication in that area.

You really can't. So given how strongly

I feel about that, I understand the temptation to put those strong feelings above what should be the stronger commitment to the gospel.

I understand. If you go back and read what I wrote about Operation Rescue many, many, many years ago,

I include the story in my response to ECT from 1994. It's still on our website. It's in the article section.

You will see that I had to cease my involvement with that organization because it became very clear to me that I was expected to put the gospel to the side, that I was to accept

Roman Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ. I couldn't do that. I could not put myself in a position where I could not proclaim the gospel to someone.

But I understand the strong emotions.

And I think that explains a lot of what we see with people who were once committed to the gospel who end up cracking, who end up compromising over time, is because of the fact that when you stand side by side and you get that connection with someone, then the issues of the gospel fade in the distance.

And it's very easy for you to say, well, you know, that person and I, we've done a lot to help stand against the evil of abortion.

We've both been attacked by homosexuals. Doesn't change the fact that they're holding to a false gospel.

And so I'm not saying we need to be less passionate about those things.

What I'm saying is we need to be more passionate about the only thing that can actually change the hearts and minds of men.

And that's the gospel itself. If your involvement with anything decreases your confidence and commitment to the gospel, look out.

That's not a good thing at all. Heavy stuff today on the dividing line, but hopefully important stuff and useful to everyone listening.

Thanks for listening. I look forward to seeing all of you who are friends or foes in Salt Lake City tomorrow and on Saturday.

Preach in both services on Sunday. The Class of Golden Gate starts on Monday. I'm going to be one busy fellow all the way through the end of June into July.

Uh, no rest for the weary, but that's okay. That's why we're here. Thanks for listening to Dividing Line. We'll see you on Tuesday.

Lord willing, God bless. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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