May 28, 2009

The Program Opens and the Host Introduces the Topic

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday Afternoon, just want to make sure that all our friends up in Salt Lake all three of you. No. We're heading up there tomorrow going to be speaking on Saturday actually, but tomorrow I believe I will be recording a television program on the subject of the reliability of the New Testament as a whole in light of Especially issues regarding Mormonism.

That is one of the two topics. I will be addressing on Saturday at the compassionate boldness Conference in Draper. Information is found on our website. So if you would like to Join us this weekend. Take a look at that information.

I was on iron sharpens iron discussing that today. I mentioned this on a most recent blog article. Even had Alma all red call into the program that I forgot to tell you that Good old Alma called in did you just catch when he was on Jason Wallace's program?

He's one of the three Nephites now. Snowy white hair just just remember the three named Nephites. All right, remember when they would walk by. Didn't have he'd have to work on that but the snowy white hair is definitely a three Nephite ish.

So. And people who don't know Mormonism have no idea. Why are your knees fighting and why three times?

I have no idea what you're talking. That's one tall Nephite. Don't recall. He was pretty tall. Let me there are three of them. Well, I'm talking about Alma. Oh.

He's taller me I remember looking up at him, you know me too, you know, so what. So yeah, okay. Yeah, but you know, I was really disappointed He couldn't remember what the subject of the Bible study was at DL's house that one time that he attended and then again I only have a vague recollection of what I think it was Galatians 1.

Yeah, I think it's Galatians 189. I think that was the night that we did that I really do but anyway, that is neither here nor there. We're gonna be up in Salt Lake City and If you're gonna be attending the conference, please stop by and say hello and That will be you know, Roy in channel really is is just looking for Giving me every possible reason even while multitasking to kick him out of channel.

It's just incredible I don't I don't get this guy. He's he's just Looking for it. Anyway right before the program. I Mean just a few minutes for the program. He could have come in earlier to give me this information but but John Mark comes into the into the end of the channel and he drops this URL and He knows I'm gonna have to listen to it.

He knows I'm gonna have to use it, but he drops it in here. It likes it like seven minutes before the hour. So I I Cued up. The reason being I didn't start with the Radio Free Geneva theme today. But I do want to continue some things.

I had some some rather interesting Clips here this one. I did not get to before this is the the next Segment of the the Sunday School series that William Lane Craig was doing. Seemingly something got missed because he made reference to their having dealt with Ephesians 1 before this and I can't find it.

If anybody knows where it is, please let me know. Because I'd love to hear how he chills with Ephesians 1 and respond to it. But here he wasn't feeling real well, and he has a hard time talking. So it's sort of staccato and choppy and there's not a lot really to interact with except for this one section.

Now listen carefully. This one was really interesting I think some of you folks over at Westminster in Escondido will find this interesting as well.

Molinism and the Debate Over Catholicism

Options are being put on the table. I spoke at Westminster Seminary in San Diego a few years ago and these folks hadn't even heard of Molinism. They were so out of touch with you know where contemporary debate was.

So I'm I'm glad at least to hear things are on.

The table now now to catch that. From his perspective. That's where that's where the debate is is is Molinism now. I really don't think that that's the case, but. Those folks out there that never even heard of Molinism and out there Westminster Seminary now of course all the folks Westminster Seminary are gonna be going.

No. We're well aware of it and unlike certain people who call themselves Protestants. We realized the Catholics got rid of that silliness. Wait we're not interested in picking up on what the Catholics got rid of a long time ago.

But that there are others who are which brings up The URL that was dropped in the channel exactly seven minutes prior to the beginning of class beginning of the dividing line and. So I have only listened to a portion of it, but what I already heard was enough to Go.

I think we'll listen to this together a journey of discovery together. This is also William Lane Craig and a Recording he did called what about Catholicism now. I've been Playing his presentation on this subject and saying see folks He's basically saying we're with Rome on this.

We make some changes. We've got some disagreements and so right before the program. I ran out and I grabbed Frank Beckwith's book. Oh, I forgot to grab that. Oh, we'll have to do it when I get back. Frank Beckwith was on Hugh Hewitt's program day for yesterday.

And Hugh Hewitt is clearly on the way to Rome. He's clearly on the way to Rome he's a PC USA elder and you know, there are still a few conservative PC USA folks left, but He just could not say enough good things about return to Rome which Just think about that for a moment a Presbyterian elder who can't see through the the surface level Argumentation of this little booklet and it just makes you go Sadness.

But in Beckwith's book there is a quote from Karl Truman the professor of historical theology and church history Westminster Theological Seminary and I've had some discussion about this quote with various of the gentlemen who are contributing to the response to Frank Beckwith's book.

I've finished one of those chapters that I'm writing. Truman was reviewing the Mark Knoll Nystrom book. Is the Reformation over an evangelical assessment of contemporary Rome Catholicism? I I wrote a very brief review of that for the CRI journal.

I only had I think 700 words. It just wasn't even enough to barely even give the information. All I could do is give just one example of just how bad this book is in the sense of how unfairly it deals with anyone who would Even begin to stand on a historical Footing in regards to Rome Catholicism.

I mean, it just it just any convert is a brilliant person, but MacArthur and Sproul are morons. It's just it's horrible but anyway Truman Wrote the following in in regards this book and I've gotten interesting responses from the other gentleman.

I'm gonna give you my take. But clearly Frank Beckwith found this I'll just read what he says is on page 83. I single out this review because of its concluding paragraph which rocked me to the core. Which rocked me to the core.

All right, here's the concluding paragraph. When I finished reading the book I have to confess this is Truman speaking about the Knoll book. When I finished reading the book I have to confess that I agreed with the authors in that it does indeed seem that the Reformation is over for large Tracks of evangelicalism yet.

The authors themselves do not draw the obvious conclusion from their own arguments. Every year I tell my Reformation history class that Roman Catholicism is at least in the West the default position. Rome has a better claim to historical continuity and institutional unity than any Protestant denomination.

Let alone the strange hybrid that is evangelicalism in the light of these facts. Therefore we need good solid reasons for not being Catholic. Not being a Catholic should in other words Be a positive act of will and commitment something we need to get out of bed determined to do each and every day.

It would seem however that if Nolan Nystrom are correct many who call themselves evangelical really lack any good reason for such an act of will and. The obvious conclusion therefore should be that they do the decent thing and rejoin the Roman Catholic Church.

I cannot go down that path myself primarily because of my view of justification by faith and because my ecclesiology but those who reject the former and lack the latter have no real basis upon which to perpetuate what is in effect an act of schism on their part.

For such the Reformation is over for me. The fat lady has yet to sing. In fact, I am not sure at this time that she has even left her dressing room and quote now. Some have said well What do we mean by?

Default position. Well, he said he was saying that to his Reformation history class. And so I understand him to be saying that Rome was in the West first and was the institutional church first and. So to not be a Roman Catholic requires you to make an act of will that's what a Protestant is a person protesting a person reacting against something and He I don't believe that he is saying well it's the default position if you're biblical or anything like that at all and Certainly, I would not be able to use the terminology here.

I cannot go down that path myself primarily because of my view of justification by faith and because of my ecclesiology. See that that sounds like well, I have this view of These two things and that's the only reason I can't go that direction.

You all know me well enough that what I would say in that situation is I cannot go down that path because I cannot abandon the gospel of Jesus Christ and embrace a false hope. But that's politically incorrect and hopefully that's what he means but for some reason.

Most people who teach the seminaries just don't want to say that anymore. So anyway. The point that I agree with Truman on is this. He's right for a large portion of what calls itself evangelicalism. They have no connection the Reformation.

They have no passion for the issues the Reformation they have no passion for solo scriptura. They have no passion for the five solas. They don't care about solo scriptura or soli deo gloria or solo gratia a solo fidei solus Christus.

They don't they don't even know what those things are. They don't know why they're not Catholics other than the fact that they're not. It's just a matter of taste. Well, you know, I like praise bands and the PowerPoint presentations.

You know, I don't like I'm allergic to candles, you know, I mean there are people Who are not Catholic for that kind of reason and that's a lousy reason to not be anything to be perfectly honest with you.

I Agree with him that for the vast majority of evangelicals The Reformation is over because it never began for them. They've never been taught about it. They have no passion about its issues and So I would say a lot of evangelicals are not the offspring are not the children of the Reformation at all if you do not have a passionate commitment to the principles of Reformation then don't claim the the reformers as your quote-unquote Source origin parents ancestors or anything else and that's one of the three things I brought up about Frank Beckwith.

He himself admits he he never had any passion for sola scriptura. He couldn't even find a definition of it. He liked. He didn't leave Roman Catholicism because he found Roman Catholicism to have a false gospel to be opposed to the truth.

He just preferred another place to go and if you are not a Roman Catholic out of mere preference taste I Don't like the smells and bells where I think men look silly in long Outfits with backward collars.

That's not a reason to leave Roman Catholicism. People will tell you ask the people that I have talked to About the subject who are Roman Catholics. They're having a problem with Roman Catholicism. They talked to me and.

And there will I could call people as witness. I Because you have encountered the gospel of Jesus Christ I'm not looking to get people out of Rome just simply for the sake of getting people out of Rome it's a matter of the gospel and I can I can I'm sitting here right now thinking of three different people that I know of.

That I could tell you I told them that and they would confirm that so with that in mind you can see why I am somewhat passionate about the issue of theology matters and The people who agree with Rome about Natural law who agree with Rome about the nature of grace who agree with Rome about the nature of man.

And they have an apologetic that is hamstrung by that theology. Have little to say about Roman Catholicism and no reason to engage Rome. Outside of well, you know we can discuss some you know little differences, but you know, it's your opinion my opinion blah blah blah blah blah blah and That's what you hear from Norman Geisler and William Lane Craig and Here is William Lane Craig answering the question.

What about Catholicism and like I said Just started listening to it in the first few minutes. I went. Oh, I think we need to listen this because this is confirming everything I said based upon what I was listening to in the soteriological discussion in the Sunday school class and again I'm not doing this just because all of a sudden I got some desire to go after William Lane Craig or something.

I don't I Doubt even care less what in the world I'm saying about it, but it's illustrative. It shines a light upon why theology matters and why the theology you hold. Has to if you're consistent determine your apologetic methodology.

It must. So let's let's listen in here and make comments as we move along essentials and things like that.

Roman Catholicism, Justification, and the Reformation

Why don't you take a stab at this and sorry to put you in such a hot seat and guide us through the sometimes troubled waters of a relationship between.

Protestants and Catholics. Well, Kevin, I am a Protestant and therefore I Obviously have some disagreements with Catholic doctrine. But having said that I'm also not a Presbyterian, I'm not an Episcopalian.

I so I have disagreements with those.

Denominations as well and catch that. So Rome is just another denomination. It's like the difference between Baptists and Presbyterians or between Episcopalians and Presbyterians. Just just another denomination not an issue of gospel.

You know Anathema's, ah, come on, you know, I was back the Reformation. William Lane Craig is not a child of Reformation. He is not a Protestant. He's protesting nothing. He's not protesting anything.

I Think that is that is as obvious as it comes.

So the fact that I have some disagreements with Catholics and therefore could not I think in all good conscience Be a Catholic myself isn't to say that I regard Catholics as somehow sub Christian or or Unchristian any more than I think Presbyterians and Episcopalians are.

So there you go.

That's why he doesn't have any problem using the Council of Trent's soteriology as The blueprint that he just tweaks according to his taste in regards to the gospel. It's not a false gospel. They're just as saved as an Episcopalian or a Presbyterian is.

It's just some just some differences of opinion. Now, I would love to hear how a Roman Catholic Responds to that because because I mean that doesn't that does not show even a meaningful understanding of Rome's own claims.

I Mean Rome isn't saying we're just some other denomination this is mother church and Some of these groups he's mentioning are not even considered to be true churches from Rome's perspective. They do not even have a valid ecclesiology.

But most important thing is The gospel can't define it well enough can't define it clearly enough to even identify Rome's gospel with its mass and purgatory and indulgences and and ever and it's Altarchrist's priests and everything else that's that's not enough to actually violate the gospel.

So we could talk if you wanted to about some of the areas where I myself. Cannot in good conscience affirm Catholic doctrine, but I cannot in good conscience affirm Catholic doctrine.

Dr. Craig, could you in good conscience agree with the Apostle Paul that there's anything that's anathema? What what would be anathema in the gospel? What were the Judaizers doing? Dr. Craig that the Roman Catholics haven't tripled quadrupled.

What what were they doing. Was Paul just over the top when he anathematized the Judaizers in Galatia, or is it just adding circumcision? You can add all sorts of other things. The entire sacramental system of Rome you can add that that's okay.

That doesn't fall under the same condemnation. What? Would require what would it take for you to join in the apostolic? Condemnation with the anathema of something as a false gospel. I would like to know.

Evidently, maybe it's just the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses or something. It's you know way out there someplace.

Who knows but on the other hand? I do want to affirm that my Fundamental goal with reasonable faith is to defend what CS Lewis called mere Christianity. Which is the Christianity that is common to all of the great branches of Christendom whether they be Catholic.

Protestant or Orthodox or Coptic now catch that because if you're if you're listening carefully. You heard somebody else say that on the stand to reason interview. Yeah, that's what Frank Beckwith said.

Yeah. I've always viewed myself as sort of a mere Christianity type guy. I've never used myself as a Protestant apologist. So I'm not gonna be a Catholic apology. It's that stuff we all share in common folks simple question here.

What happened to the gospel? Evidently, the only thing we actually share and got in common is The Trinity, I guess that's it mere Christianity. That's that's. So what are we proclaiming to folks? I mean if we all stand together in this mere Christianity lump.

What message do we have for the world since it can't be the gospel because we don't have the same one. So, what do we say to people remember when I asked Tim Staples that almost decade ago now I wrote back to Tim now.

I wonder how many weeks has been. He responds about every three months or so. But what I said to him was so tell him if you and I are staying outside an abortion clinic together and. And you and I agree.

That abortions murder it's terrible and in fact, I have a clip maybe we'll get to it later on for Patrick Madrid. We're almost everything Patrick says in this clip I agree with. I thought I might play that just so that people can realize that you know, just because you believe someone is Preaching a false gospel doesn't mean that that every single thing that person says is wrong about everything.

There that there is that attitude out there that you can't agree with anyone on anything if you feel they're you know completely off base theologically anyway, I Asked him staples. We're staying outside that abortion clinic.

Someone walks up to us and says what must I do to be saved? You and I are gonna give him fundamentally different answers, aren't we and Thankfully back then anyways Tim was was straightforward enough to say we certainly are.

We certainly are and that to me has always been the issue and maybe I'm just naive. Maybe someone can explain to me. You know that the gospel isn't the big thing that you know all those anathemas of Paul.

Paul was just a little bit over-the-top. You don't have to worry about that. The gospel hasn't been clearly explained enough in Scripture. And so we don't really know what it is but I still Seem to get the very strong impression from reading the New Testament that that's not what the Apostles believed and That the gospel is not Something you can just put off the side and say, you know, you know we can have our own preferences on that, but let's let's just let's just not let that divide us as Long as Galatians remains in the canon.

That is not going to be.

An option for me. That's my burdenist is what unites us rather than what divides us.

You're already gonna draw criticism from those who say well you need to take a harder tougher line on Catholicism because it distorts the gospel and so on so you can't win in this I think. However, we can win by maybe just discussing some of the places where Protestants and Catholics Disagree.

Protestants are just Catholics who think that the Catholic Church needs some Reformation.

Perhaps, you know well and Catholics now since Vatican to regard Protestants as separated brethren. They do not condemn Protestants. They think that Protestants are our Christian brothers and sisters but Separated from the the church the true church that Christ is established.

So we certainly are living in a new era I think in which Catholic Protestant relations are much friendlier than they have been in the past.

I see a lot. What does that mean? I mean, I keep hearing people saying this and you know Vatican to changed everything and wow, look at what they said about Martin Luther and look at the Accords at the Lutherans and stuff so much of that.

And and yeah sure Rome has changed Rome has to change because Rome is now filled with a bunch of universalists in essence but the fact remains That Rome makes claims about continuity is the one true church and infallibility in the person of the Pope and We know what Rome has taught in the past.

Is William Lane Craig going to defend the idea that Rome has now Abandoned it's it's changed its teachings in that way. I Don't get that feeling but again, what does any of this have to do with the real issue and that is the gospel and That you well you have to be harder you mean more consistent you mean have a different focus that is the gospel.

Well, I suppose that's being harder but you see the assumption in the interviewers voice and questions is that if you're going to take a Strong standard Roman Catholicism say this is a false gospel. It means you have to be a mean nasty terrible horrible person I was I was informed today that a Certain LDS person communicated with some people at farms and Immediately informed some folks that he would not debate me because I am a mean rude Terrible horrible nasty person, and I would like to write to this LDS person say could you show me a single debate?

Where I was I? Behaved in that way in any of the people with any of the Mormons that I have I have debated with the same thing with Roman-catholics anyone who who just watches the debates that Mitch Pack when I have done.

No, you don't have to be a nasty horrible just disgusting person and still You don't have to compromise the gospel in the process.

It can be done. But evidently by definition people say it just can't more. Bible reading. Among my Catholic friends who have often complained that they weren't Encouraged to read the Bible perhaps growing up and I don't know what that is.

But I've seen a lot of fruit there from our Catholic friends getting into the word and digging in themselves.

Yes, and that can only be a very positive development. I think is they Become familiar with the Bible and submit themselves to what the Bible has to teach. I think that we can all rejoice in in that.

Hello. Again, I don't want to be naive. I don't want to be unkind here, but that's so naive. That is so naive that that does not under even take into consideration the Roman Catholic understanding of how you're supposed to read the Bible.

What did Vatican to say? About how are you even supposed to read the Bible. Who has the right to interpret Scripture the Magisterium of the church? That's how it's gonna be presented now. Yeah, I'd encourage anyone to read the Bible but you have to deal with Rome's own claims denying solo scriptura and Asserting the tradition of the church.

But why won't people do this. Because they're not actually children of the Reformation. That's why what would keep you or prevent you from being a.

Catholic. Well, one of the difficulties that I have would be with the doctrine of Justification as it was enunciated at the Council of Trent now.

Immediately again. Especially if you've read Beckwith's book you're sitting here going man. This this is identical. These are the same answers Frank Beckwith was giving before he went back to Rome now.

I don't know William Lane Craig's Theological history. I don't know what he was born. Yes. I have no earthly idea. I Really don't spend a lot of time looking into such things. I'm sure somebody's gonna write and tell me now.

It's just fine. That's great. That's that's how you learn, but I don't know what his background is, but these are the same answers That Frank Beckwith was giving and one of the things that we're having to point out and and we'll point out in a number of number of different ways, I'm sure is that the reason Justification by faith is such a dividing line is Not to be found simply in the doctrine of justification by faith.

Justification by faith is a concept a doctrine a belief that is based upon Preceding issues that for some reason these folks don't seem to think are that important Justification by faith defined by solo scriptura justification by faith defined by Sola, gratia a view of grace that does not embrace The Roman Catholic view of grace, but William Lane Craig does and so you see Even though he talks about justification by grace.

I would argue that the reformed doctrine of justification by grace differs at important and key junctures from a Non-reformed doctrine of justification by grace and I would say to you one is defensible and one is not.

With that we're gonna take our break and then continue on with listening to William Lane Craig discussing Roman Catholicism and hopefully shedding some light on this important issue. We'll be right back.

The Reformed Response to Trent and Grace Alone

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Why Trent, Sacramentalism, and Meritorious Works Matter

Back to the dividing line we're listening to William Lane Craig discussing What about Roman Catholicism illustration once again not trying to pick on poor dr Craig but an illustration of a wide swath of evangelicalism that simply is disconnected from the Reformation.

And I think as our Truman said for these folks Reformation is over. They they it's a matter of taste. Well, I can't go there because this because that and once you join Arminianism or in his case Mullen ism to the shell of Reformed theology in the form of justification by faith.

I'm sorry, but You just don't have the same thing. It is it is not the same package and.

So anyways, we pick up with that which is one of the most important Catholic councils for enunciating Catholic doctrine in the Council of Trent. It has a Description of how justification takes place and it makes it very clear that our response to God's grace is Just that that God takes the initiative God's grace Leads out.

We then respond to God's grace and he infuses into us His justifying grace and what this grace does is give us the power to perform Good works Which in turn merit eternal life? Now it's that last bit that really gives me pause.

Gives me pause that last bit not all the stuff that came before because he agrees with Rome on all of that. Now why why does he not say oh and by the way if the Council of Trent you're justified by baptism I Mean, that's what Trent said, isn't it?

There's there's so much more here. I I'm sorry. Maybe I'm wrong. But since I don't hear him enunciating these things It really makes me wonder how well he really understands Roman Catholic theology the traditional theology of Trent the the Multitude of ways in which that's interpreted today.

I just don't know I've heard a lot of William Lane Craig debates, but I don't think I've ever heard him debate a Catholic. Why would he? That's the whole thing why would even bother to do that and that's that's interesting because Those of you who've read return to Rome, isn't it?

Interesting that even though Beckwith was himself not reformed when he writes his apologetic Portion, who's he always responding to? Reformed he's not responding to the others. There's nothing to respond to.

They're not presenting a meaningful apologetic.

And all the rest of it I think is great.

But that's that all the rest of it. I think is great. Everything else Rome said but that one last little thing about meriting eternal life. By doing good works in a state of grace. That's just the one thing if we can just get rid of that one thing two things.

First of all, that is not the most fundamental problem with the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification. I. Substantiation and the repetition sacrifice and all the sacerdotal stuff. That's all there and that's all hasn't even been mentioned yet.

Maybe he'll get to in a moment. Maybe maybe so. That that's that that that's the first thing but but secondly. All the rest that's just great. Think about that for just a moment. Think about how far that means.

Dr. Craig is from Geneva from The Reformation in that sense. And then once again put that all together and I've had so many people say I just understand why you guys are so different and how you defend the existence of God now.

You're hearing why now you're hearing why it is a fundamental.

Foundational difference. I don't think of the good works. We do as being meritorious of eternal life. That seems to me to teach salvation by works. If you say that God gives me the power to do meritorious works that then earn salvation that seems to me to undercut the doctrine of Salvation by grace alone.

Now what our Catholic friends will very quickly say is ah But these works are only done by God's grace. It is God's grace that gives you the power and the Drive to do these meritorious works and so in one sense it wants to say not all these works are only Grace, it is ultimately grace and not works, but nevertheless the bottom line it seems to me still remains that whether through the grace of God or not, I Perform works which then merit eternal life.

And I don't think as biblical Christians that we want to say that and so that is one of the aspects.

No, we don't want to say that but are we willing to say that that is false? That maybe I'm just I was just born in the wrong era or something, you know. But I don't get this. Well, you know, we don't we don't want to say that.

I mean Joseph Smith. We have imagined supposed that God was God from all eternity. I'll refute that idea and take away the veils that you may see. Well, we don't want to say that. Yeah, we don't want to say that but we better say that that is soul-damning heresy.

If we care about God's truth and care about people anyways. That may not be popular in our society. But I just don't get this. Well, you know, we don't want to say that. That that would make us queasy.

It might make us feel uncomfortable. Effects of Catholic doctrine that gives me real pause.