Advice for Witnessing to Mormons and Role Playing With “Elder Hahn”

This is the dividing line the Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation and now with today's topic

Here is James white and good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James Why do we continue this week looking at the subject of the eternal law of?

progression We've had I'd say we've had almost as many people over the course of this past week request from me the eternal law of progression

PowerPoint presentation as we did in the previous week

So that's a very encouraging Number of you have picked up that particular presentation and I very much appreciate that and I'm glad that you're taking the

Opportunity to follow along obviously our main goal during this period of time is to prepare you

To share the gospel with LDS people now Yes, we're getting prepared for our outreach in Salt Lake City our outreach in Mesa, Arizona Obviously, we want to look forward to having this material archived and so that people in the future can

Obtain this information can get this type of training before going out to future events

We're witnessing to Mormons as well But in either case, I'm very thankful that people have obtained it and just just in case you don't know what

I'm talking about If you're just joining us haven't heard us the past couple of weeks. There is a

PowerPoint presentation A slideshow presentation that goes along with what I'm going to be talking about during the course of the program about what

Mormons believe about how they can become gods and To understand this material will help you to be able to share

With LDS individuals share the gospel with them if you would like to obtain this

PowerPoint presentation Along with a link to a free PowerPoint viewer you don't have to have

Microsoft PowerPoint. It's not a Inexpensive program

If you buy a Microsoft Office, it's two three hundred dollars to buy all of that But you can get a free

PowerPoint viewer from the Microsoft website If you would like to get the Microsoft presentation the

PowerPoint presentation that I've put together on the eternal law of progression Here's what you need to do

You need to send an email to na 27 at a omin org that's na 27 at a omin org and then in the

Subject line the subject line of your email you put a very simple phrase and yet again this week

I got to see how many different permutations of this one simple for phrase can possibly be created

As Emails were sent to me that had the wrong thing sent in the subject line

The subject line would simply say request 1a and that's capital

R small case EQ you est space one capital a request 1a

Send that to that email address and about anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes later

You will get back a copy of this PowerPoint presentation and you can follow along with us, so please feel free

You know people as soon as I say that in the channel they start having fun with it and they start saying

You know coming up with all sorts of different permutations for request 1a. Thank you

Monarch on also known as Katie for putting the right I'm just gonna ignore the channel for a little while because Sadly some people there.

I just don't get it anyways send that request 1a to any 27 at a omin org and my system will send

The file back to you for those of you who have it and have it open Please a click on the 19th the 19th slide we got through the first 19 slides last week and We had gotten to the point where we were looking at the 19th slide

The 19th slide is a blow -up of a section of the graphic that you can see on slide 18 if you would like to do so and We were talking about baptism for the dead

I presented to you the idea that in Mormonism those spirits that are in the spirit prison are able to leave the spirit prison if They believe in the gospel in the spirit prison it's taught to them preached to them by faithful missionaries

Mormon missionaries from paradise and If back on earth the proper things are done in their place.

That is someone must go through baptism and laying on of hands to receive

Release in the spirit prison and through baptism to the dead they can enter into paradise now this baptism for the dead

Generally, obviously it takes place Well takes place today in our modern context only within the context of the

LDS temple And the person who goes into the temple is baptized as many as 50 times in a in a session

They bring the names of the people for whom there could be baptized into the temple now as we understand it

So this is becoming very Advanced in the way that it's handled it used to be done very much on on a paper basis

You'd bring the names in and lists would be generated and so on so forth now The Mormon Church is going high -tech

And so your temple recommend that you need to get into the temple and the names are placed upon Magnetic cards and it's done by computer when you go down into the baptismal font which

Until a number of years ago all the earlier Mormon temples had had their baptismal fonts built underneath ground level

That's not the case any longer with all of them But the baptismal font is is on the back of 12 oxen the statues of 12 oxen you go down into the water

There is an elder there to baptize you There is a person called a recorder who used to do this as I said on the basis of paper now

There's a computer screen that has the names fed in and so the recorder will Name off these names to the elder who then baptizes the person in the name of the person who has died

And then you go through however many baptisms you're going to be doing in that particular section as I said up to like 50

I know a number of people who had to experience the 50 some -odd Sly a 50 50.

I look at someone's talking about I want the slides in the chat room so I said 50 some -odd slides 50 some -odd baptisms in one in one experience and then after you're baptized for The dead then you go into another room where there are elders there wearing their temple regalia and They lay hands upon the your head to receive the

Holy Ghost in the name of the same people again doing the computerized type thing

They are able to have the exact same names And so you've gone through the last two of the four fundamentals of the gospel

For those spirits that are in prison now obviously people ask questions such as well

Does that automatically? receive Does that automatically release people from the spirit prison no?

It does not that's only doing two of the four fundamentals the individual spirits in the spirit prison

Must repent must believe in of themselves and so baptism for the dead will thereby

Be done for many individuals who will not take advantage of it Simply because you've done these things in the name of a person does not

Automatically result in there being released from the spirit prison but on the other hand it is also true that even though Mormonism says that during the millennial period they're going to be actively involved in engaged in baptism for the dead

It does not follow then that they're going to get to everybody and so in essence what ends up happening is

You're gonna have some people in the spirit prison who have had work done for them back on earth

But they don't take advantage of it because they don't want to believe and you're gonna have people in the spirit prison who want to get out but someone back on earth does not do the temple work in their place and So the result of that is that if you're looking at slide number 19 you will see that there is a

Blue arrow that comes out and splits into the terrestrial and celestial kingdom and so there are going to be many people

Coming out of the spirit prison entering into the lower levels of glory the terrestrial and the celestial kingdom

Now it's important to notice the very in this particular slide. It's not in all the slides

The rather bright green box line marked resurrection

That the blue arrow line crosses before it enters into the terrestrial and the celestial kingdoms the resurrection is very very important at the resurrection those in the spirit prison will be judged on the basis of their works and those who enter into the terrestrial kingdom will will in essence be judged as having been

Good people. I have had many Mormons. Tell me that because I'm generally a

Moral person and because I've just simply been deceived But because I'm very dedicated to what

I believe so on and so forth then I will make it into the terrestrial kingdom

I've had many others say that I'll only make it in the celestial kingdom the lowest level of glory

But at the judgment they are judged on the basis of their works and they enter into one of these two

Lower levels of glory now if you go to the next slide slide number 20

You will again see the entire Graphic as it is presented and if you click on it one more time a red box will show up that will go around paradise the celestial kingdom and Spirit children and if you click again this will take you to number 21

Which is a blow up of that particular box at the resurrection those who are in paradise enter into the celestial kingdom, but there are different levels of celestial glory the celestial kingdom

Contains anyone who went through the four fundamentals of the gospel remained faithful for those who lived on earth

Obviously a person living in the spirit prison who is released through the endowment work work for the dead

Baptism for the dead so on so forth Can't live faithfully the rest their lives. They will enter into Paradise and then at the resurrection they come out of paradise and into the celestial kingdom to inherit the level of glory

That they have in essence merited Through the works that they have done and the level of faithfulness that they have

Illustrated would someone please tell Rosie how to download Just send me an email any 27 at a omin org request 1a in the subject line.

It'll be sent to you Thank you very much. Okay. We don't want people pouting in the chat channel is very very distracting pouting is a is you know?

Pouting just it's just not a nice thing. So we want to help everyone to get to the materials. They can see what it's now

The celestial kingdom is not simply inhabited by gods because there are those who enter into celestial glory who did not go through the endowments that are necessary for the reception of priesthood authority and they did not go through the necessary endowments to allow them to enter into the eternal marriage ceremony and So because of that Because they have not gone through those particular things they cannot become gods

Now, let me just notice Just make a mention of the fact that technically we have certainly found amongst a number of Mormons the

Technical belief that a person could die a non Mormon and still become a god now, how would that happen? Well, if someone went through baptism for the dead if someone had their hands laid upon their heads to receive the

Holy Ghost if someone then went through the endowment ceremony in Place of the dead which you are able to do if you go out to Mesa or if you go out to the other temples

And you see especially elderly people going into the temple they may be doing baptisms the dead or they may be going through the endowment ceremony on a behalf of The individual individuals who have died you can actually go through the endowment ceremony on behalf of someone who's died and You can go through the eternal marriage ceremony as well

So if you depend upon somebody else to do all of the work for you It would be possible at least on a technical level to gain the highest level of exaltation

Even though you did not go through these things in your physical life. Now, there would be some Mormons who

Simply wouldn't want to do that They would say that maybe isn't you know, it's certainly not wise and there might be some

Mormons who would contest that but many have expressed the possibility of being able to do that so with that in mind we look at this slide number 21 and Those who enter into the celestial kingdom

But who were not Sealed in the eternal marriage ceremony those individuals become angels

So in Mormonism God men and angels are all the same Order of being but at different levels of exaltation and so a man who dies but who does not enter into the

Eternal covenant of marriage Therefore will become an angel in the celestial kingdom according to Mormonism according to Joseph Smith the angel

Gabriel for example was in his mortal life Noah Noah, so Noah became the angel

Gabriel Adam became the angel Michael and That's where they they came from now

You might ask the question. Well, what about women who die without going through the eternal marriage ceremony?

Well the situation there is different and that is a

Mormonism holds out the opportunity of men and women being sealed even after their death and Especially the older form of Mormonism made much of this opportunity of the

Idea of Sealing people to other people after their death. There were many Mormon women for example who desired to be sealed to Joseph Smith after his death and To bring him young after his death so on and so forth and it was one of the issues that raised a problem for the early

Mormons was this concept of Being sealed to women who were not your wives on earth

Because in Mormonism, of course the marriage bond between a man and a woman if they are not sealed in the eternal marriage ceremony is for time only and So since that marriage bond is broken

At death then that woman becomes available to be sealed to a Mormon man for eternity

Which doesn't make anyone overly happy with Mormonism in general unless you happen to be a

Mormon, of course So anyways, there's the concept of us even being sealed to people after your death

And so a a woman could conceivably be sealed to a man for eternity that she had never even met in time

And so on and so forth. So but those who do all the things that they are supposed to do

Those who have gone through the four fundamentals of the gospel those who've received their their priesthood authority through the endowment ceremonies the

Mormon Church Those who have been sealed for time and eternity enter in the celestial kingdom and become gods now if you click on the the next slide go to number 22 you have the full graphic again and if you look at the

Right hand side the graphic you will see the celestial kingdom the terrestrial kingdom the celestial kingdom If you look down at the bottom, you will see hell and you will see that there are three lines that cross the block marked resurrection

That's the line that goes the terrestrial and celestial kingdom That's the line that goes into the celestial kingdom and that is the very small thin line that goes down into hell

Now, I'm not sure if I mentioned this last week So I'll mention it just in case I didn't because I've presented this a number of times recently in various and sundry

Context if you know the small line Coming down off of the purple line coming out of mortal probation that goes down the spirit prism

Those are Mormon apostates Mormon apostates

Are those who at least in the old style of Mormonism? We're just simply Mormons who left the Mormon Church now in the more modern ecumenical style of Mormonism they are generally

Mormons who have had their calling and election made sure and They Knowing the truth of Mormonism have turned their backs on Mormonism They go down the spirit prison they die and they are the very small little line that goes down from the spirit prison to hell

They are sent to hell get a higher level of glory

But they do have at least one little advantage that is that Since they cross that line of resurrection

Then they receive their physical bodies and since they went farther in the eternal law of progression than Satan and the demons did their

Consolation prize you might say is That they will rule and reign over Satan and the demons in hell

They will get higher in They have a higher level in essence of authority

In hell because they have a physical body than Satan and the demons do okay, but everyone now tune in at this point because it's it's a

It's it's a issue that I think you need to understand everyone of the apostate

Mormons in hell everyone in the celestial kingdom everyone in the terrestrial kingdom and And everyone who is not a god in the celestial kingdom all of those

Individuals are damned Now let me let that sink in for for just a moment they are damned now, what does that mean?

Obviously this gives you a good example of why it is that we need to be very very aware of the language barrier that exists between Christians and Mormons Because they are damned in the sense of being damned up in their progression to becoming

What they could be the greatest that they could be being all that you can be yes

They are damned up from joining the army. No, they simply cannot become Everything that they could be

What's more though is? That everyone in hell and everyone that celestial kingdom and everyone in the terrestrial kingdom and Those who do not read the high reach the highest level of the celestial kingdom all of those when they are resurrected

Those individuals their bodies are subtly changed so that they cannot have children

They cannot have children this is part in essence of their damnation

Now if you want and you can do so because you have it in a certain view in PowerPoint if you go back to slide number five remember these words from the each the eternal covenant of marriage

Manual the celestial marriage manual the Mormon elder person says to the younger

Mormon Well, it involves the whole the gospel law everything required of us by God is associated with this law but the major crowning point of the law which man must obey is eternal marriage therein lies the keys of eternal life or as The Doctrine and Covenants puts it eternal lives in other words an eternal increase of posterity see there is that phrase an eternal increase of posterity

Those that do not enter into celestial marriage and hence gain the highest level of glory

They cannot have eternal lives or an eternal increase in posterity.

They can't have spirit children That Means as someone has rightly said that for the women

Anyways, they cannot be eternally pregnant and for the men They cannot be siring these offspring which is the very power of God the power of God of Mormonism is the power of priesthood and the power of procreation

And so they cannot become gods they have been changed so they cannot have that capacity

Well, there is a brief rendition shall we say of the eternal law of progression

Therefore you see up at the right hand side Celestial kingdom from there comes spirit children.

That's where the spirit children come in on the left side of the diagram as well Those who are exalted the status of godhood them have spirit children with their multiple wives

They organize a planet and they begin the process all over again. They create an

Adam and Eve type Situation they place the bodies within those particular bodies that they have created and They start the process all over again

Except this time they are worshiped as the gods of those

Planets, okay I just got a request from one of my

Columbia evangelical seminary students Unfortunately, they forgot to put the word request in No capital

R then eq you est space 1a You know someone has asked that I would do

The presentation I've done on King James only ism on the webcast using my PowerPoint presentation

I think that'd be a good idea. I've put a lot of work into that presentation I think I'll probably do that down the road somewhere and it's gonna be a real simple thing in the subject line

I haven't set up yet. So don't send it to me yet But in the subject line, it's just gonna be 1611 If you can't spell 1611 one six one one

Then you don't you don't want my PowerPoint presentation on the King James only a controversy anyways

We do that no more capital letters no more nothing just one six one one that's all

I'm gonna have in there and That way we don't have to worry about that. So If you sent me a request with just one a you need to have request one a

I just sent it out to Rosie and the gobbler they'll have the presentation here in a few moments. Anyways, that is the situation with the eternal law of progression the spirit children that are placed in the bodies of of The people that you form on the planet and starts it all over again

And now however you then will be worshipped as that God and this has happened over and over and over and over again in the

Concept that is Mormonism if you go to slide number 23, I think Isaiah chapter 29 verse 16

Really sums it up. Well You turn things upside down as if the potter were thought to be like the clay

So what is formed say to him who formed it? He did not make me can the pot save the potter. He knows nothing

Isaiah 29 16 that's from the international version I think describes the Mormon doctrine of God perfectly.

It's upside down It thinks the potter is like the clay And if you want to see

Mormons get upset with you remind them the Bible says that God is the potter and we are the clay

That is foreign to Mormonism absolutely foreign to Mormonism Isaiah 29 16 now, here's what

I think we're gonna do There are four more slides and they are the ten things that I suggest

In regards to witnessing the Mormons and we'll start them after the break They won't take me too long.

And what I'd like to invite you all to do is to get online 866 8 5 4 67 63 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63

Get online if you have a question, that's fine But what I'd like to do is

I'd like to get some role -playing started yes, I would like to roleplay with you all and if you would like to Roleplay with elder

Han on the webcast then dial 866 8 5 4 6763 now

I Know that there's a number of folks in the chat room right now who who would be perfect For doing the role -playing with me and Since I know a lot of you in fact,

I have everybody's email who has requested this program What I can do is if you all won't call in that I can start giving out your email address on The air and tell people to send you a note that says chicken

So why don't you all just you know, just do what's do the right thing? 866 8 5 4 67 63 get online and we'll roleplay together and we'll talk about Mormonism here on the dividing line

So while we go ahead and take our break while you all are calling in fill up those phone lines 8 6 6 8 5 4 6763 we'll be right back

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the

King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a

o min org The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with us this coming

Lord's Day Our morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And our worship service is at 10 45

Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and Wednesday prayer meeting is at 7

We are located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 26 grace or look us up on the web at www .prbc

.org That's what

I call a sudden end to the introduction it just went it's gone But hey, we're back.

It's live Webcasting that's exactly how it works. And who knows we're in the world Oh, that's a nice song too, but it just sort of disappeared 866 854 6763 it's on the topic of the chat room folks 866 854 6763 and there's some folks in there that need to get online and roleplay with me

People who use Knicks like, you know Gobbler and Monarch on an e

Nielsen and Hendrick and Rosie and Lagos and you know, it'd be fun to do stuff with spin stir and and you know

It'd be a lot of fun to have sky man on the air, too I think I would like to it would be very interesting to know how sky man

Would handle the Mormon missionary at his door named elder Han And I wouldn't want to roleplay with sky man in life because I think he carries a sawed -off 12 -gauge and that's basically how he would deal with with elder

Han in in life, but I'm here in Phoenix and I happen to know that sky man is not so maybe sky man would like to call him and Talk to us about some

Mormonism as well. But 866 854 6 7 6 3 would be the number to call if you would like to get involved in our role -playing today, so you know, like I said,

I do have y 'all's emails and Don't don't make me go there. Don't make me go there.

You don't want to do that Well, let's look back at the presentation while all these folks are getting online

Let's look at number 24 Slide number 24 as we look at sharing with Latter -day

Saints sharing with Latter -day Saints There are 10 Suggestions that I have for you and I have derived these subjects suggestions from many many years of sharing with the

Mormon people And I hope they are of use to you. The first is probably the most important be patient be patient the problem that many modern -day evangelical

Christians have in sharing with Mormons is That you can't simply walk up to a

Mormon and hand them the four spiritual laws, even if you liked using such a thing

That is somewhat like a shooting a 22 at a tank it doesn't do anything it doesn't accomplish anything a

Four -spiritual laws does not communicate to the Mormon person. You can't just hand them a tract and expect them to hit their knees and repent leaving

Mormonism is not like being a Methodist and becoming a Presbyterian or a

Lutheran moving from a denomination to another denomination Mormonism is an entire culture.

And so patience is vital Patience in looking at the long term in witnessing to the

Mormon if that's gonna be a possibility maybe a next -door neighbor Maybe the Mormon is a relative of yours something along the lines like that And also long term maybe in your preparation

Maybe in the necessity of you having to do a fair amount of preparation for example people who utilize

Tracks that are not really designed for Mormons might find that sharing with Mormons would be a very very difficult thing

We had a situation number of years ago, for example where a particular interesting group

Came along Sorry, but I will explain my laughter one of my

The same the same student just sent Request 1a request all in capitals with a dash and I had been nice and had sent it to the other one just the 1a

But I wonder how many different forms can be sent thing from one student and of course our

Our good Jehovah's Witness friend that I kicked out last week for making a snide remark about Jesse Jackson Of course sent request 1611.

There you go Some wonderful fascinating things that take place when you're live doing a webcast

Request 1611 very funny Dan. That's that's that's good. We'll Keep that one for the archives Anyways, as I was saying there was a church here locally that sent some people out to witness the

Mormons at the Easter pageant This is about and I remember how long ago it was rich might remember.

It was probably the third or Second or third or fourth year, I think that we were out there in in Mesa Doing this this type of work and some folks from the door showed up 1988 huh?

Okay AOM in also known as rich says it was 1988 and I Remember clearly and they're still this this thing's still there on the corner of Hobson and Maine and Mesa.

There's a What would you call it? It it used to have to do with the farming? Irrigation canals out there now, it's all underwater and this place for control of the irrigation canals is still there on the corner and This guy came out while the

Mormons were leaving so that we called the big rush at the end of the evening Everybody who came in to the temple grounds through that particular corner

And it's the busiest corner over the course of two hours leaves in about ten minutes. So it's a When the lights are red and do not allow us to cry people to be crossing a huge groups

Develop here and this guy comes out and he stands up on this cement type thing and this concrete type thing

I think as rich would rather have me put it this concrete type thing and He starts preaching to the

Mormons and he says you need to repent and the Mormons go we did

You need to have faith in Jesus We do you need to believe he's a son of God we believe that more than you do

You you need to put to believe in God's Word. We have more of it than you do. I mean the guy knew so little about what the

Mormons believed that that even though Technically what he was saying was correct since he could not communicate it and since he hadn't taken the time to learn anything about it

The result was pure mockery just just absolute mockery of The the message that he was attempting to to present and so patience both the long -term and patience in preparation are

Things that you must have that is the first of the ten things You know,

I just leaned back and I looked at the at the at the phone and there's no one online

And that means that some of the people have specifically asked to to to participate with us today

Are not yet online. I'm sure it's because you all are busy with some other things. You're meaning to get to it but I I I Do have email addresses and and I will start using them soon

If if a few of you guys and maybe a few of you gals Yeah, that's exactly right ailment is right.

What are you chicken? Chicken remember remember remember that from back to the future. Well, this will be this will be back the role -playing eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three number two

Number two be aware of the language barrier and if you've worked through this process with us so far

Then you well know that the language barrier is a high one and If you do not understand what the

Mormons mean by God the father and the significance of father

Describing Jesus as the Son of God literally Etc. Etc. Etc.

Then you Obviously are going to have trouble Engaging in conversation with these folks.

So you must be aware of the language barrier You must have a way of scaling because they're not gonna do it You are the one who must put out the extra effort to be able to Communicate with individuals in a meaningful fashion number three be sensitive to the individual's experience and beliefs and This is important because of the fact it's becoming more and more important as Mormonism Continues to evolve and change back when we first started witnessing the

Mormons in the early 1980s There was more Uniformity to LDS belief than there is today

Of course, there are only a little over three million Mormons there then and now there's more than 11 million

So obviously given such a tremendous growth on the part of Mormonism.

You're going to get a corresponding Increase in the viewpoints that people have there are going to be

Mormons. You're going to encounter who do not know Elements of the eternal law of progression.

They haven't been exposed to issues such as that Now you might want to contrast this with for example,

Jehovah's Witnesses You're gonna get a very narrow spectrum of belief with Jehovah's Witnesses especially on the key and central issues

Because the tight control the Watchtower Society exercises Over its individuals and over its teaching and so even then you still

Will find different Jehovah's Witnesses who take different views on various and sundry things But still in comparison to Mormonism the

Jehovah's Witnesses are a much much much narrower group in The views that are going to be expressed to you.

So you need to ask the individual questions find out Where they're coming from.

Are they a convert? Are they long time Mormon a lifelong Mormon those things will be helpful to you if you go to the next slide

Number 25 for those of you who may have just been receiving the the material in the in the email.

Oh It's it's quite interesting when people come into the chat channel anyways number four

Focus upon the central truths of the faith Focus upon the central truths of the faith.

What do what do I mean by the central truths? Well, we've listed the three things That we really strongly encourage people to be focused upon There is only one

God who can save Jesus Christ is our creator the all -sufficient Savior and Salvation is

God's gracious gift So those three issues who

God is who Christ is and What salvation is are the three issues that we strongly encourage people to remain?

focused upon now Most of the time when people talk to Mormons and then they call us afterwards or something like that They say man, you know,

I I feel like we we we talked about everything under the Sun we we talked about this subject and we only talked about for five minutes and then we were on this this subject and by the

Time I got done. I had a headache because I couldn't even figure out where in the world we were That is a very common experience

If you've been through it, I sometimes in fact, I'll ask the chat room How many of you in the chat room you've talked to Mormons and you feel like you ended up covering every possible subject?

There was in one conversation and you didn't feel like you ended up getting anywhere as a result

Put your hands up. I say yeah. Why a yeah, that's happened to me And we'll find out how many folks here in a second to have that happen to them and their experiences

Part of the reason for that is real simple If you go into a conversation without a goal

You will come out of the conversation without having gotten there When when you get into a car and you start driving if you don't know

Where you are supposed to be going you're just gonna drive all over the place you're not actually gonna accomplish what you are attempting to accomplish in driving if you don't have a goal to get to and You can't determine what roads are gonna be the best roads to take if you don't know where you're going

You're just gonna wander around so many people get into conversations with Mormons and They have no idea why in the world they're even in this conversation in the first place let alone do they have a specific goal in mind that they're going toward and so as a result

Many people feel very frustrated at the end of a conversation Well, you need to have a direction you're going and there are three things that you need to communicate to the

Mormon Who God is who Christ is and what salvation is? Especially difficult in this context because they think they know the answer to all three questions and So as a result if you have those as your goals then all sorts of the other issues that come up the issues regarding the

Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and polygamy and temple ceremonies and false prophecies of Joseph Smith and the first vision all

The rest of stuff you need to treat them as if they are in essence Little side roads and let's say you're talking to a person and they are just all focused on the first vision

They just they think the first vision is the be -all and end -all of all things And they simply will not listen to what the

Bible says about the nature of God Because the fact that in the first vision Joseph Smith saw

God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate and distinct physical beings and because of that You may have to deal with the first vision

But what you need to do is view it like an off -ramp. You're gonna take a brief off -ramp here in Phoenix.

We have i -17 and If you go if you're tooling on up I -17 you're heading north toward Flagstaff and you're coming from Tucson.

You're coming through the the Phoenix area. You're going up I -17 there's gonna be there's gonna be a road called

Bethany home road Okay You can get off the exit at Bethany home road go through the light and go right back onto the freeway

That's how you need to view Subjects like Joseph Smith's first vision as an off -ramp you come off for a moment

You deal with it and you're always looking at finding the transition back on to the road you were on before so you want to transition from talking about the first vision back to Let's say your goal in that conversation was to present the fact there's only one true

God who can save Well, the first vision would be easy to transition out of that one Back into the biblical passages that present the truth about the one true

God Okay, so that is I think of probably the single most practical thing

Is that when people come out and they listen to me talking to Mormons? They listen to to rich or to Larry the other people that have been out here doing this for a number of years

They discover that we are always heading one direction We're going one direction and we're trying to accomplish one thing and those other issues

We may use them as side issues, but even God who can save Jesus Christ is our creator the all -sufficient

Savior and Salvation is God's gracious gift. That's what you need to communicate to the

LDS people eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three we have our first Person online.

We're not gonna go there yet. Hold on. Don't don't don't don't throw John on yet. Thank you John for having the guts

That a number of people that I may still yet name Don't have

Thanks for having the guts to talk to elder Han elder Han will be with you shortly

But before elder Han can take over the microphone James must finish these points very quickly

And I will do so within the next five minutes or so Number five be prepared to share why you accept the

Bible is the perfect authoritative Word of God This is true in dealing with any occult group all of them in one way or another will attack the authority of Scripture They will in some way shape or form attack the authority of Scripture either directly and blatantly as many more missionaries do or they will do so in a less blatant form by Presenting some alleged necessity for an infallible interpreting authority

Saying that Jehovah has one organization and Jehovah's organization interprets the Bible and all the rest of stuff whatever it might be

It doesn't matter They will attack the authority of Scripture. You must know why you believe that authority to deal truly

With the LDS people number six avoid side issues that lead to blind alleys if you end up standing on the sidewalk

With someone arguing polygamy for three hours, you've probably been standing in a blind alley accomplishing nothing

Avoid side issues that lead to blind alleys and normally those same blind alleys and side issues

Also will create far more heat than they do light Avoid those side issues stay with the central issues and let me point out there are quote -unquote ministries to Mormons that are totally taken up with side issues

Totally taken up with side issues rather than actually dealing with the real issues As they need to be handled number seven if pre -existing belief in Joseph Smith and the

LDS Church stands in the way Make sure you can back up any statements you make when dealing with Smith of the church in other words don't

Think about this. There are a lot of people that run around and Let's say they watch the film the

Godmakers. Okay, they go. Oh I'm gonna go witness to Mormons and that's good.

I'm glad that there are people who want to go witness to Mormons however Put yourself in the position of a

Mormon person Put yourself in a position of a Mormon person if you

If you were sitting let's say in a restaurant by yourself and And you were reading your

Bible and Some guy walks up to you and says, oh you got a Bible there, huh? Yeah Well, you know what?

Mormonism's Mormonism's crock. It's it's it's it's Mormonist Christianity.

It's it's ridiculous Christianity is all wrong and you look at the person you go. Oh Christianity is all wrong.

Have you ever read the Bible? No. No, I've never read the Bible But I've got a brother who saw a movie once that proved that Christianity was ridiculous

How much credibility would that person have in your eyes? Not much

So why do we expect Mormons to give us much credibility and we walk up to them and say

Oh Mormonism is Mormonism's a cult. Oh, have you ever read the

Book of Mormon? Well, no I haven't but I I heard a presentation on the internet once that said it was all wrong

They're probably not could give you a whole lot of credibility and if you start making comments about the

Joseph Smith being a false prophet in the book of Abraham and so on and so forth You need to be able to back up What you say or don't say it

Or say the person well, you know, I've heard there's some problems about that issue But could I get back to you on that? I'd like to be able to send you original documentation out whatever it might be

It's just simply a matter of of honesty Number eight don't get it over your head utilize support systems.

Don't go getting on your your White charger and heading off to save the world

Let the elders of your church know that you're going to be involved in doing something like this utilize support systems number nine

Share positive challenging Christian literature. You don't just have to hand them books about Mormonism hand them good solid books about the true

God That has been very effective and finally number ten live the Christian life not just in being kind and compassionate

But living a holy godly life not because you have to but because you love God and wish to bring him glory

Mormonism believes there's no salvation outside the church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints by living a Christian life. You can live in such a way

That you are a living contradiction to the claims of Mormonism on that particular issue eight six six eight five four 67 63 is the phone number eight six six eight five four six seven six three.

We have two folks online everyone in the channel is trying to get at least one more person online a person who

Who is trained in the art and science of? Biblical interpretation and hence should be quite well prepared to deal with Elder Han without shooting him with a 12 -gauge

Who knows maybe we'll have that opportunity. But first first we have the opportunity of now inviting to the microphones

Elder Han and Elder Han. We're now going to allow you to to talk with folks concerning Your beliefs as a

Mormon. So I now turn the microphone over to Elder Han Elder Han.

Welcome Well, thank you. You know, a lot of people have said that I sound a lot like you really they have

Yes, they have said that to me. Well, I think we sound very different. I think actually that we do too but thank you for this opportunity of Sharing with folks what we believe in the

Mormon Church, and that was a very interesting rendition. You gave our beliefs It's not exactly how we would we would present it during the missionary lessons, but but it was

Very very interesting. And so I'm very thankful that there's already some callers online who would like to Who would like to talk with me and so I'm really not sure how this works being new to it all being

Elder Han but I think this thing on the screen is telling me that the first person that I'm gonna get to talk to is

Is John from from Salt Lake is that is that the case John? Are you there? Yes, I am.

Hi. Hi, John I'm doing great and I really appreciate the opportunity of talking to you today about about what

I believe Have you been listening to the the program that that's James has been doing here.

Oh, yes, I have that's that's great well, you know it it almost sounds like he he seems to believe that we're not really

Christians and You know the name of our church is the the

Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints Yes, I do as a matter of fact

Yeah, I've been studying Mormonism quite in -depth lately. Well, if you're from Salt Lake City, but I'd tell you

I Bet you we could have 15 dozen missionaries on your doorstep so fast

You wouldn't even wouldn't even know what happened But now you're not one of those folks that that that believes that we're not

Christians. Are you? Fact that I don't believe I hope you don't get offended by this, but I don't believe you are

Christian Well, but but I believe in Jesus well Second Corinthians chapter 11 does state that a person can believe in a different Jesus different gospel on different spirit

Well, okay. Here's an angel of light. So what makes you think that you're preaching the correct

Jesus? Well, you know, that's a really good question John I appreciate that the spirit with which you asked it because it is the spirit that has

Testified to me of the truthfulness of of the Mormon Church and it's the spirit who has testified to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet that the

Book of Mormon is the Word of God and that Gordon Hinkley is the current prophet of God on earth I've prayed about these things and have found them to be true.

Have you ever prayed about the the Book of Mormon John? Well, that's sort of a difficult question for me to answer

That's I don't know how to address that the thing is, you know, I'll tell you the truth I don't want to lie to you. I'm actually a former

Mormon. So I Receive a spiritual experience telling me that it was true.

But my question to you is How do you know that that spirit that told you the book is true is really from God? Well, because I believe

God is my loving Heavenly Father, and he just simply wouldn't allow me To be misled when

I when I with all the honesty that I have in my heart Prayed to find out these things are true.

How how could I be? How could I be misled in a situation like that? I I you do realize that the the

Bible actually commands us to test the spirits Have you ever tested the spirit that told you the Book of Mormon was true? well, no,

I haven't because you know why I haven't because that spirit has has caused me to desire to To be good and to be moral and to love my brothers and sisters because we're all brothers and sisters of the

Heavenly Father And what kind of spirit would cause me to want to be good and moral except the

Holy Spirit of God? You do realize other religions Have spiritual experiences.

You can't you can't really tell me that all these people in different religions Or even though they're having spiritual experiences that they're all true, right?

Well, yes, but we do believe that that's every religion has

Has some element of truth within it and and so I think that yes, there are spiritual experiences

But but do you really think that I could pray? and and really

Express my love for for my Heavenly Father and and be deceived Well speaking from personal experience.

I mean I have met people in fact I met one person who I used to work with who?

Prayed about the last teachings of Jesus Christ He himself is a former Mormon and he said that the spiritual experience that he received by praying this book was stronger than the

Book of Mormon ever gave him. So, you know, I I think the experience you're telling me about is Completely subjective, but do you have your

Bible there? Oh, yes, of course. We love the Bible chapter 4. We love the Bible Yes, first John chapter 4.

I've actually have been reading through the Bible on my mission. Isn't that good? Yeah, could you read verse 1?

It says Well, actually, I don't know how this happened, but somehow someone slipped me a new

American stare let me get my King James Version Oh, here it is First first John 4 1 beloved believe not every spirit

But try the spirits where they are of God because many false prophets are gone out into the world Okay You say you haven't tested the spirit that told you the

Book of Mormon was true and yet here's a commandment that tells you to Actually test the spirit Well, what does that tell me?

Well, but you see not now Here's here's where you see if you had all of latter -day revelation

John and you do I mean you've been a member of the church, but you know what Moroni 10 4 and 5 says, right?

It says and when you shall receive these things I would exhort you that she would ask God the Eternal Father in the name of Christ if These things are not true

And if you shall ask the sincere heart with real intent having faith in Christ He will manifest truth lit on you by the power of the

Holy Ghost So isn't that sort of the test? I I mean to do it with real intent and a sincere heart and faith in Christ I mean,

I have a problem with that test. Okay, first of all the minute I apply the Moroni 10 4 passage Am I not already asking

God that this particular verse is I mean, I've already assumed once I apply that test, correct? That the minute

I apply this test that that particular verse is true What I'm really doing is praying about the rest of the rest of the verses, correct?

Well, yeah. Yeah, that's right So don't you think it's an invalid test? Well, I know

I I don't think it's invalid I really because it's meant so much to me John, you know

And and I'm sorry that it did it, you know, it didn't convince you and maybe for a while it did but but you know

What do you think it means the commandment now, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just asking to tempt

God you know if I go on the grove of trees and I want it I'm asking

God should I commit adultery and I'm you know, you know, I met a girl who's married and you know,

I'm asking God whether she committed adultery Do you think that would be tempting God? Hmm. If God already said that I'm not committed adultery, right?

Well Yeah, that that probably would be but you know John if I could ask you to hold on just a moment

The folks here in the program are telling me is something that we have to take a break or something like that So so let's continue our conversation with you and the other folks who have called in right after this

So you folks behind the wall there you non -mormon people? Why don't you do this break thing and we'll be right back

Then again, maybe we won't You know being a

Mormon elder I really don't know how to handle this James Could could you come back here and handle this for a moment? Yes.

Yes, I'd be Gentlemen are we conference on role over 13 hours examining major doctrines and issues that separate

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Listen to dr Eric's Fenton's presentation Rome has spoken the matter is debatable when the

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God requires Yay, demon, which is utterly indispensable to salvation

It is by faith and by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ And we lay hold of the

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Do you think of such a person were brought before Moses having just been caught bowing down before a

Statue and lighting candles and rocking back and forth in prayer. Do you think Moses would have accepted the excuse?

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Well, we're back I'll just give it up shoot that thing. That's all kill it.

It's it's You know what it reminds me of is those old records, you know when it would skip you meet me meet me

It's just not gonna happen today. Shoot that. Well, it's probably just could go through and continue on you can't stop it so we're going to ignore that for a little while and Just go back

Elder Hahn. Are you ready to talk to to John for just a few more minutes? Yes. Yes. I am Thank you. Thank you very much.

Can we John a Johnny? Okay, good. Good job. I appreciate that I I really appreciate the conversation we've had so far and and you know,

I just wanted to ask you You you believe that That that were to test the spirits.

Have you have you read? What what the Bible says in in James 1 5? Yes, I have and For other folks are listening in If any of you lack wisdom

Let him ask of God to give it to all men Liberally and abradeth not and it shall be given him and and all

I'm saying is I think that's what Moroni 10 4 and 5 Is talking about right and so how would

I how would I go about testing? In your opinion this this spirit that that you say

I need to test on what basis would I would I test it? Well, let me ask you something real quick.

Let's assume for a moment that the Moroni 10 4 passage is valid, okay And that God does confirm

By by this by this experience. What must I do according to Mormonism to inherit eternal life?

Well, there are a number of things that you do if you mean eternal life in the sense of of the fullness of that life then you would need to Repent and have faith and you need to be baptized by someone holding the proper priesthood authority and and have hands laid upon your head

To receive the Holy Ghost again by someone with the proper priesthood authority and and as the

Bible If I were to die with unrepentant sin in my life Would I be able to go to the special kingdom according to Mormon beliefs?

Well, you know, I've it's interesting. I've had two different bishops that had different opinions on that Moroni chapter 10 verse 32 does say that we need to love our

God with all our heart soul mind strength and that we need to Rid ourself of all ungodliness then the grace of Christ is sufficient for us, right?

My I'm wondering even if the Mormon Church were true. I mean a sinner such as myself I don't think even if I tried the very best

I could do it still wouldn't be sufficient Oh, you're you're not that bad. Are you John? Well, Jesus did say if you look at a woman less, he committed adultery at a heart

So, you know to let your yeah, but anything beyond that comes from the evil one. I even think the Book of Mormon teaches that in that particular verse that To let your yes, yes be no be no

Anything beyond that comes from evil one But I think the Book of Mormon if I remember right and first Nephi teaches that not only you're in the danger of fire

Hell, but you'll be thrust into hell. Are you ever told a lie? Well, yes, but but of course, that's why there's forgiveness and and that's why there's completely kind of according to Mormonism You've repented of lying, correct?

Well, yes, I repented of so you'll never do it again Well 54 it does mention that by this you may know if a man repented of the sins behold

He would confess them and forsake them. So if you've truly repented of them, what does that mean? You'll never do it again

Well, I I really you know, I just think you're you're taking that way too far I mean God knows that we are we are but you know his children

See what you're telling me is you're knocking on my door and telling me that I can't have complete forgiveness of all my sins

It's it's conditional whether I repent or not, correct? Well, certainly in fact, have you ever read an article called the mediator by by Elder Packer?

Yes, I have Yeah, I think that really expresses it pretty good. Have you have you read the Miracle of Forgiveness as well?

Oh, yes. Uh -huh Have you ever looked at page 208 and 209? Well, yeah, like I said, there were some things in there.

I didn't fully understand. I'll have to be honest with you There are some things and it's not scripture, right?

Well, he was an Apostle at 26 years Well, he actually is a prophet Yeah, but in you know if he doesn't say thus saith the

Lord though, you know, well You know, the folks are telling me here that I need to let James make comments. So could you on just a second?

Sure Hey John good Excellent job Staying on focus.

Very very well done. Someone told me you were feeling a little nervous, but you you did a great job and that's that's

Very very well done and I really appreciate you breaking the ice and getting a few other folks on on the air today

All right. All right. God bless. Thank you very much. All righty 866 8 5 4 67 63 8 6 6 8 5 4 6 7 6 3

I Only see one light blinking over there and John survived and So those of you who've been listening and going well, well see

John survived so that means you will too so why don't you get on board 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63 and Now we we have one of our regular callers here

Mike from up in in Ogden, New York, but before that now Mike we know who

Mike is and in fact Mike is is one of the regulars in our in our chat channel and and sometimes

Mike feels um, I Don't know. I guess the term is sometimes

Mike feels a little froggy You know like he could sort of take on the world.

So so elder Han did not come here today alone

No, no, no elder Han came along with Dr.

Jones from the Foundation for ancient research in Mormon studies known as farms and dr.

Jones Instead of elder Han is going to talk with with Mike from Ogden, New York.

So dr. Jones, why don't you sit down here and You can have your conversation with Mike from okay

Well, thank you very much for allowing me to have the opportunity of doing this and defending the truth of their restored

Church of Jesus Christ which was restored April 6 18. Oh, I'm supposed to talk to someone.

Okay Someone named Mike in Ogden, New York would like to talk to me Mike. Are you there?

Yes. I'm here. Hi. This is dr. Jones Yes, sir. Well first I'd like to say that now that dr.

White has the endorsement of dr Adams for his book on justification. He should read the books competent to counsel in the

Christians counselor manual for the purpose of understanding emotional problems

We don't have any of those books at BYU. So what is your question for me, sir?

Well, I question for mr Jones, I guess dr. Jones, sir. Dr. Jones from Brigham Young University Yes, it's up there in Utah, you know

Yes someplace up there if the Mormon if the Book of Mormon is the Word of God and since the past prophets have claimed

Under the term thus sayeth the Lord and under their inspiration so to speak that the

Word of God the Holy Bible is God's Word but became corrupt or has errors in it then under what authority do we accept the claims of the

Book of Mormon? Well, you need to understand that the Book of Mormon is a record of the ancient peoples who lived here upon this continent and in That record which was translated by the divine gift and power of God We are told that many plain and precious truths have been removed from the

Bible by Satan's Church The Book of Mormon says there's only two churches The Church of the

Lamb and the Church of the Devil and the Church of the Devil has warred against the Church of the Lamb And as a result many plain and precious truths removed from the

Bible and so because of that then we understand the need for latter -day revelation

The Book of Mormon's authority does not depend upon The Bible in any way shape or form

I would refer you To a book called a marvelous work and a wonder by LeGrand Richards where he over and over again

Emphasized that fact that Joseph Smith did not claim that he was getting his teachings or his authority from the

Bible at all the restored church has the power and authority to give new revelation and has done so in the

Book of Mormon the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price fascinating, but on a philosophical basis that did not answer the question and if I recall

I can't remember the name of The prophet but a gentleman with an Irish last name who was a prophet at one point said that the

Bible is actually translated correctly and Is correct therefore we have a contradiction in terms well you would have to give me a reference to an

Irish named prophet obviously Mr.. Mr.. Mike from Ogden, New York because there has been no prophet of the

Mormon Church Who has in any way changed the eighth article of faith? It says we believe the

Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly And there has been no prophet of the

Mormon Church that has torn those sections from the Book of Mormon out That refer to the plain and precious truths that have been removed from the

Bible and so there is certainly no Irish prophet or any others that has made that kind of a statement you'd have to be very specific now

Brigham Young certainly Did not agree for example with Orson Pratt Orson Pratt to believe the

Bible to have been utterly corrupted and hence really Unusable as far as a source of divine truth

Brigham Young corrected him in that in fact I remember one sermon where Brigham Young got up after Orson Pratt preached and said

I do fear that on the basis of what brother Pratt has said that if you were to find a Bible laying on the ground on your way home

You would not so much as lean over to pick it up and carry it with you He then corrected that and and did in fact say that the

Bible has been very well translated Over the years, but that does not change the fact that in reality

Many plain and precious truths have been removed now. I don't know what you mean about on a philosophical basis

I did not answer your question if there is no relationship authority wise Between the

Bible and the modern -day scriptures I don't see how there was any philosophical problem in the answer that I provided you well the question is they well given with the

Mormon Position that the Bible is correct as long as it is translated or translated correctly

The question is though if the Mormons claim that the Bible does have error and is corrupt some have even argued that Then under what basis should we accept the

Book of Mormon you could try to say well This president said that and this president said this and that but the thing is if the

Book of Mormon Offers any authority to the Word of God then it destroys and even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

Saints Then it destroys any foundation at what's it had whatsoever Well again that the

Book of Mormon does not claim that its foundation is found in the Bible and Joseph Smith did not claim that Its foundation is found in the

Bible Mormon teaching in any way refer to scripture or at least say that the Bible is good to some degree or at all

One point was God's Word well of course the article of faith says that we believe the

Bible to be the Word of God as Far as it is translated correctly, okay, then the question then would come

Then under what authority do you still accept the Book of Mormon? It's the it's a question in which if you were to say that God would actually let his word become corrupt

Then there is no basis whatsoever We can trust anything that a prophet says when he says the best sayeth the

Lord what the Book of Mormon says what an article of faith says what the Journal of Discourse or anything else would say because you have philosophically destroying your own your own your own position

No, you're you're bringing a false full of philosophical perspective to Mormonism that you just don't understand

What it is that we believe we believe in the priesthood authority We believe that the

Bible teaches about priesthood authority, and we believe that that priesthood authority Provided Joseph Smith the ability as a prophet revelator and seer to translate the ancient records properly

And it does not follow that we have to believe that God would not allow his word to be corrupted in point of fact

He did allow that to happen and in fact he allowed his priesthood authority to be removed from the earth for 1 ,700 years but the basis that we have for saying the

Book of Mormon is the Word of God is The same basis upon which the entire church stands and that's the priesthood authority that was restored to the earth in 1829 when

John the Baptist returned and restored the Aaronic priesthood and Peter James and John returned and gave the

Melchizedek Priesthood to Joseph Smith who is a prophet revelator and seer well again that is basing it on Biblical claims or at least referring to the scripture and Mormonism cannot do that if it wishes to be consistent with logic

And the problem posed is if you were to say that The priesthood is based biblically one way or another or has at least some origin in the

Bible and that's where Mormonism claims that originally came from and if Mormonism were to claim that Joseph Smith was a

Reinstitution of the priesthood in 1829 then there's a lot of problems again because the

Bible if the Bible it became corrupt No matter how long over what period of time through translation or transmission

Then the question is how can we accept anything that claims to be God's Word and how can we indeed?

Under what authority except even what claims to be a modern -day priesthood if God would let his word become corrupt.

No use Didn't you you do not understand what the the Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day

Saints believes one of the reasons that I have made reference to What the scriptures teach is so that you can understand the consistency that does exist in the whole of scripture

Even given the fact that the Bible has had many plain and precious truths removed from it and has suffered at the hands of men

It does not follow that that we believe there's some necessity some epistemological necessity

That we have to be able to affirm some inerrancy of the Bible. Certainly you realize

That the vast majority of Bible scholars today do not believe in inerrancy

They do not believe that the Bible is perfect So you are separating yourself from the vast majority of Protestant scholarship when you promote this idea of inerrancy and the result of the

Application of your position would be that the vast majority of Protestants today

Likewise have no basis for believing anything if what you're saying is actually true, but that doesn't apply to what?

We in the LDS Church believe well, I would argue and say that number one Instead of me not understanding

Mormon beliefs It is the Mormon who does not understand the nature of God since logic reflects the nature of God and since the position held by Mormonism has violated the laws of logic through accepting the

Book of Mormon by claiming that the Bible became corrupt Number two the point raised that I forgot the point logic reflects

God. Oh gracious. I One of the biggest things that we have pointed out in our work in defending the the a restored church is the fact that the the dogmas and the doctrines that Evangelical fundamentalists used to exclude us from Christianity despite the fact that we we believe in Jesus and we do all these things in the name

Of Christ that these dogmas that you utilize have come from Greek philosophy and not from the pages of Scripture and More and more

Protestant scholarship is seeing that we've been right all along That there was no simple monotheism in the

Old Testament and that's the Nicene Trinitarianism that you promote as being

I would assume you promote anyways as being Definitional of the Christian faith was in fact not the faith of the

Apostles it comes from Greek philosophy and not from the pages of Scripture and I'm very glad to see that more and more people are beginning to see that so they're their basis for excluding us from the

Christian community simply have really no Logical or historical or biblical basis and I think you're certainly giving us an example of that right now

Well, given what you said then so then we could say goodbye to you Deuteronomy chapter 6 in verse 4

Which says the Lord our God is one God we can also say goodbye to John chapter 10 verse 29 where Jesus says and my father are one also

Titus chapter 2 in verse 13 Where the Bible says that Jesus Christ is God.

Well, if you want a Bible bash, that's fine I really honestly believe that a person who looks at those passages

Would discover that you are misusing them and point of fact, for example, the book of Deuteronomy Is a subject of a number of scholarly papers presented by farms one of which

Documents a textual variation within the Hebrew text that shows that Jehovah and Elohim are separate and distinct gods

You then quoted John 10 30 and there are many Christian interpreters who will point out that all that Jesus is saying there is the

Father and the Son are one in purpose in bringing about the redemption of God's people and so this this mere citation of passages without a careful looking at the actual context is the hallmark of evangelical fundamentalism and Fundamentalism is is the very movement that seeks to Exclude people on the basis of traditions and definitions that they have created that are not really a part of The text of the

Bible and we are are pushing very hard to help people to understand What the real facts about these passages are

I would encourage you to look into that information Well, actually, I'm not too well aware of the recent research by farm

However, the if you look at the Hebrew term for Elohim and Jehovah There's nothing that is accurately translated as gods and if you look at the

New American Standard Bible It recognizes that the context indicates who is being discussed

And we weren't way why I was not saying that you should translate Elohim as the gods in every single situation

That's not what we're referring to there and Deuteronomy 32 instead if you'll go to the scholarly journals, not just those we've produced but produced by Protestant scholarship that is not hung up on this idea of defending inerrancy then you would you would find a discussion of these things and the admission that the

The early Jews were not monotheists. They were in fact polytheists

Who believed that Jehovah was a secondary God? Be beneath Elohim and this is something you would find being taught in most seminaries today

And most of those graduates of those seminaries that would not be doing what you're doing and excluding the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints from the The Christian community on that basis.

So I I thank you sir today right now This this man is saying that he needs to make some comments.

And so I am being pushed away from Thank thank you very much. Dr. Dr. Jones. We're about out of time.

Thank you a mic from Ogden You did a fine job and calling in today and appreciate your listening and we do appreciate your sharing and witnessing

To dr. Jones today. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Well, we appreciate you listening in there

Dr. Jones, I I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, I I need to I need to know we only have a certain amount of time sir

Sit down. Thank you Boy, some people are really pushy. Anyways, thank you very much for listening in this week on the dividing line

There are some of you that that I know as soon as the program is over you're gonna start saying man

Man, I wish I had called in. I wish I had been a part of that Well, you know, there's gonna be more opportunities in the future.

We who knows maybe there will be an opportunity to To do an entire section of role -playing with folks and and have an opportunity to address these issues

Who knows but we will be doing it right here on the dividing line one way or the other and I do thank of course

Mike and John for calling in and The last section there, of course, why why do that?

Well simply to remind you that there are no matter how strange a

Theology may seem to you at first blush There will be those who will defend it and they will be able to produce what look like Plausible arguments now those arguments may not be able to stand up to examination and Mormon isms do not but Never get yourself in a position of thinking that man if that's what the

Mormons believe if they believe that God was once a man And that he lives on a planet that circles a star named

Kolob and all the rest of stuff I'm not gonna have to take this seriously. I'm not gonna have to do any real research.

That is not the case That is not the case there are many very intelligent individuals who are a part of the

LDS faith and as much as you may think that the system of Mormonism is so completely removed from anything even

Semi -related to scripture and it is but still the the belief in Mormonism is not merely a function of The intellect in the mind it is a spiritual thing and so keep that in mind

There are ways of making the arguments sound good Even when the arguments are in fact

Simply untenable from any meaningful perspective. Well, I hope that our discussions with folks were helpful to you.

I hope that the Presentation that I made that you will go back over that take a look at what it says

Obviously the nice thing about doing it the way we're doing it is that we will be archiving this program You can go back over points more than once and very frequently

We have open phone segments where you can ask questions during the course the program itself

So if there's things that you didn't understand, why don't you plan on calling in and talking to us about those things?

There are all sorts of opportunities for doing this kind of thing in the future I think we need to do a program on the book of April sometime down the road and use a

PowerPoint presentation that especially needs Graphical interfacing shall we say and we will be talking about other things where we can utilize that kind of technology again in the future

So thanks for being a part of the program today And we will be back again next week here on the dividing line to talk with you and to defend the faith once forever

Delivered to the Saints. We'll see you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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That's a o m I n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks