Advice for Witnessing to Mormons and Role Playing With “Elder Hahn”

This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. And now with today's topic.

The Eternal Law of Progression and the LDS Plan of Salvation

Here is James white and good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James. Why do we continue this week looking at the subject of the eternal law of? progression. We've had I'd say we've had almost as many people over the course of this past week request from me the eternal law of progression PowerPoint presentation as we did in the previous week.

So that's a very encouraging Number of you have picked up that particular presentation and I very much appreciate that and I'm glad that you are taking the Opportunity to follow along. Obviously our main goal during this period of time is to prepare you To share the gospel with LDS people now.

Yes, we're getting prepared for our outreach in Salt Lake City our outreach in Mesa, Arizona. Obviously we want to look forward to having this material archived and so that people in the future can Obtain this information can get this type of training before going out to future events.

We're witnessing to Mormons as well. But in either case, I'm very thankful that people have obtained it and just just in case you don't know what I'm talking about. If you're just joining us haven't heard us the past couple of weeks.

There is a PowerPoint Presentation a slideshow presentation that goes along with what I'm going to be talking about during the course of the program about what Mormons believe about how they can become gods and To understand this material will help you to be able to share With LDS individuals share the gospel with them if you would like to obtain this PowerPoint presentation Along with a link to a free PowerPoint viewer you don't have to have Microsoft PowerPoint.

It's not a Inexpensive program. If you buy a Microsoft Office, it's two three hundred dollars to buy all of that. But you can get a free PowerPoint viewer from the Microsoft website. If you would like to get the Microsoft presentation the PowerPoint presentation that I've put together on the eternal law of progression.

Here's what you need to do. You need to send an email to na 27 at a omin org that's na 27 at a omin org and then in the Subject line the subject line of your email you put a very simple phrase and yet again this week I got to see how many different permutations of this one simple for phrase can possibly be created.

As Emails were sent to me that had the wrong thing sent in the subject line. The subject line would simply say request 1a and that's capital R small case EQ you est space 1 capital a request 1a send that to that email address and about anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes later You will get back a copy of this PowerPoint presentation and you can follow along with us, so please feel free.

You know people as soon as I say that in the channel they start having fun with it and they start saying You know coming up with all sorts of different permutations for request 1a. Thank you monogon also known as Katie for putting the right I I'm just gonna ignore the channel for a little while because Sadly some people there.

I just don't get it anyways send that request 1a to any 27 at a omin org and my system will send The file back to you for those of you who have it and have it open. Please a click on the 19th the 19th slide we got through the first 19 slides last week and We had gotten to the point where we were looking at the 19th slide.

The 19th slide is a blow-up of a section of the graphic that you can see on slide 18 if you would like to do so and We were talking about Baptism for the dead. I presented to you the idea that in Mormonism those spirits that are in the spirit prison are able to leave the spirit prison if They believe in the gospel in the spirit prison it's taught to them preached to them by faithful missionaries Mormon missionaries from paradise and If back on earth the proper things are done in their place.

That is someone must go through baptism and laying on of hands to receive Release in the spirit prison and through baptism to the dead they can enter into paradise now this baptism for the dead. Generally obviously it takes place.

Well takes place today in our modern context only within the context of the LDS temple. And the person who goes into the temple is baptized as many as 50 times in a in a session. They bring the names of the people for whom there could be baptized into the temple now as we understand it so this is becoming very Advanced in the way that it's handled it used to be done very much on on a paper basis.

You'd bring the names in and lists would be generated and so on so forth now. The Mormon Church is going high-tech and so your temple recommend that you need to get into the temple and the names are placed upon Magnetic cards and it's done by computer when you go down into the baptismal font which Until a number of years ago all the earlier Mormon temples had had their baptismal fonts built underneath ground level.

That's not the case any longer with all of them. But the baptismal font is is on the back of 12 oxen the statues of 12 oxen you go down into the water. There is an elder there to baptize you. There is a person called a recorder who used to Do this as I said on the basis of paper now?

There's a computer screen that has the names fed in and so the recorder will name off these names to the elder who then baptizes the person in the name of the person who is who has died and Then you go through however many baptisms you're going to be doing in that particular section as I said up to like 50 I know a number of people who had to experience the 50 some-odd Sly of 50 I look at someone's talking about I want the slides in the chat room so I said 50 some-odd slides 50 some-odd baptisms in one in one experience and then after you're baptized for the dead then you go into another room where there are elders there wearing their temple regalia and They lay hands upon the head to receive the Holy Ghost in the name of the same people again doing the computerized type thing.

They are able to have the exact same names and so you've gone through the last two of the four fundamentals of the gospel. For those spirits that are in prison now obviously people ask questions such as well.

Does that automatically? Receive. Does that automatically release people from the spirit prison? No it does not. That's only doing two of the four fundamentals the individual spirits in the spirit prison Must repent must believe in of themselves and so baptism for the dead will thereby Be done for many individuals who will not take advantage of it.

Simply because you've done these things in the name of a person does not Automatically result in there being released from the spirit prison. But on the other hand It is also true that even though Mormonism says that during the millennial period they're going to be actively involved in Engaged in baptism for the dead.

It does not follow then that they're going to get to everybody and so in essence what ends up happening is You're gonna have some people in the spirit prison who have had work done for them back on earth.

But they don't take advantage of it because they don't want to believe and you're gonna have people in the spirit prison who want to get out. But someone back on earth does not do the temple work in their place.

And so the result of that is if you're looking at slide number 19 you will see that there is a blue arrow that comes out and splits into the terrestrial and celestial kingdom and So there are going to be many people Coming out of the spirit prison entering into the lower levels of glory the terrestrial and the celestial kingdom.

Now it's important to notice the very in this particular slide. It's not in all the slides the rather bright green box line marked resurrection. That the blue arrow line crosses before it enters into the terrestrial and the celestial kingdoms the resurrection is very very important at the resurrection those in the spirit prison will be judged on the basis of their works and Those who enter into the terrestrial kingdom will will in essence be judged as having been Good people.

I have had many Mormons. Tell me that because I'm generally a Moral person and because I've just simply been deceived. But because I'm very dedicated to what I believe so on and so forth then I will make it into the terrestrial kingdom.

I've had many others say that I'll only make it in the celestial kingdom the lowest level of glory. But at the judgment they are judged on the basis of their works and they enter into one of these two Lower levels of glory.

Now if you go to the next slide slide number 20 You will again see the entire Graphic as it is presented and if you click on it one more time a red box will show up that will go around paradise the celestial kingdom and Spirit children and if you click again, this will take you to number 21 Which is a blow up of that particular box at the resurrection those who are in paradise Enter into the celestial kingdom, but there are different levels of celestial glory.

The celestial kingdom Contains anyone who went through the four fundamentals of the gospel remained faithful. For those who lived on earth obviously a person living in the spirit prison who is released through the endowment work for the dead baptism for the dead so on so forth Can't live faithfully the rest of their lives they will enter into Paradise and then at the resurrection they come out of paradise and into the celestial kingdom to inherit the level of glory That they have in essence merited Through the works that they have done and the level of faithfulness that they have Illustrated.

Would someone please tell Rosie how to download. Just send me an email any 27 a omin org request 1a in the subject line. It'll be sent to you. Thank you very much. Okay, we don't want people pouting in the chat channel is very very distracting.

Pouting is a is, you know Pouting just it's just not a nice thing. So we want to help everyone to get the materials they can see what it's now. The celestial kingdom is not simply inhabited by gods because there are those who enter into celestial glory Who did not go through the endowments that are necessary for the reception of priesthood authority and they did not go through the necessary endowments to allow them to enter into the eternal marriage ceremony and so because of that Because they have not gone through those particular things.

They cannot become gods. Now, let me just notice. Just make a mention of the fact that Technically we have certainly found amongst a number of Mormons the the the technical belief that a person could die a Non-mormon and still become a god.

Now, how would that happen? Well, if someone went through baptism for the dead if someone had their hands laid upon their heads to receive the Holy Ghost if someone then went through the endowment ceremony in Place of the dead which you are able to do if you go out to Mesa or if you go out to the other temples and You see especially elderly people going into the temple they may be doing baptism of the dead or they may be going through the endowment ceremony on a behalf of the individual individuals who have died you can actually go through the endowment ceremony in behalf of someone who's died and You can go through the eternal marriage ceremony as well.

So if you depend upon somebody else to do all of the work for you it would be possible at least on a technical level to gain the highest level of exaltation even though You did not go through these things in your physical life.

Now, there would be some Mormons who Simply wouldn't want to do that. They would say that maybe isn't you know, it's certainly not wise and there might be some Mormons who would contest that but many have expressed The possibility of being able to do that.

So with that in mind we look at this slide number 21 and Those who enter into the celestial kingdom But who were not Sealed in the eternal marriage ceremony those individuals become angels. So in Mormonism God men and angels are all the same Order of being but at different levels of exaltation and so a man who dies but who does not enter into the Eternal covenant of marriage Therefore will become an angel in the celestial kingdom according to Mormonism.

According to Joseph Smith the angel Gabriel for example was in his mortal life Noah Noah so Noah became the angel Gabriel. Adam became the angel Michael and That's where they they came from now. You might ask the question.

Well, what about women? Who die without going through the eternal marriage ceremony, well the situation there is different and that is Mormonism holds out the opportunity of men and women being sealed even after their death and especially the older form of Mormonism made much of this opportunity of the Idea of Sealing people to other people after their death there were many Mormon women for example who desired to be sealed to Joseph Smith after his death and To bring him young after his death so on and so forth and it was one of the issues that raised a problem for the early Mormons was this concept of Being sealed to women who were not your wives on earth.

Because in Mormonism, of course the marriage bond Between a man and a woman if they are not sealed in the eternal marriage ceremony is for time only and So since that marriage bond is broken At death then that woman becomes available to be sealed to a Mormon man for eternity.

Which doesn't make anyone overly happy with Mormonism in general unless you happen to be a Mormon, of course. So anyways, there's the concept of us even being sealed to people after Your death and so a Woman could conceivably be sealed to a man for eternity that she had never even met in time.

And so on so forth. So but those who do all the things that they are supposed to do. Those who have gone through the four fundamentals of the gospel those who've received their their priesthood authority through the endowment ceremonies the Mormon Church.

Those who have been sealed for time and eternity enter in the celestial kingdom and become gods. Now if you click on the the next slide go to number 22, you have the full graphic again and if you look at the Right hand side the graphic you will see the celestial kingdom the terrestrial kingdom the celestial kingdom.

If you look down at the bottom, you will see hell and you will see that there are three lines that cross the block marked resurrection. That's the line that goes the terrestrial and celestial kingdom.

That's the line that goes into the celestial kingdom and that is the very small thin line that goes down into hell. Now, I'm not sure if I mentioned this last week. So I'll mention it just in case I didn't because I've presented this a number of times recently in various and sundry Context if you know the small line Coming down off of the purple line coming out of mortal probation that goes down the spirit prism.

Those are Mormon apostates. Mormon apostates. Are those who at least in the old style of Mormonism? We're just simply Mormons who left the Mormon Church now in the more modern ecumenical style of Mormonism they are generally Mormons who have had their calling and election made sure and they Knowing the truth of Mormonism have turned their backs on Mormonism.

They go down the spirit prison they die and they are the very small little line that goes down from the spirit prison to hell. They are sent to hell get a higher level of glory. But they do have at least one little advantage that is that Since they cross that line of resurrection.

Then they receive their physical bodies and since they went farther in the eternal law of progression than Satan and the demons did their Consolation prize you might say is That they will rule and reign over Satan and the demons in hell.

They will get higher in. They have a higher level in essence of authority. In hell because they have a physical body than Satan and the demons do. Okay, but everyone now tune in at this point because it's it's a.

It's it's a issue that I think you need to understand everyone of the apostate Mormons in hell everyone in the celestial kingdom everyone in the terrestrial kingdom and. And Everyone who is not a god in the celestial kingdom all of those Individuals are damned.

Now let me let that sink in for for just a moment they are damned now, what does that mean? Obviously this gives you a good example of why it is that we need to be very very aware of the language barrier that exists between Christians and Mormons.

Because they are damned in the sense of being damned up in their progression to becoming. What they could be the greatest that they could be being all that you can be yes. They are damned up from joining the army.

No, they simply cannot become Everything that they could be. What's more though is? That everyone in hell and everyone that celestial kingdom and everyone in the terrestrial kingdom and Those who do not read the high reach the highest level of the celestial kingdom all of those when they are resurrected.

Those individuals their bodies are subtly changed so that they cannot have children. They cannot have children. This is part in essence of their damnation. Now if you want and you can do so because you have it in a certain view in PowerPoint if you go back to slide number five remember these words from the each the eternal covenant of marriage manual the celestial marriage manual the Mormon elder person says to the younger Mormon.

Well, it involves the whole the gospel law everything required of us by God is associated with this law but the major crowning point of the law which man must obey is eternal marriage. Therein lies the keys of eternal life or as The Doctrine and Covenants puts it eternal lives in other words an eternal increase of posterity.

See there is that phrase an eternal increase of posterity. Those that do not enter into celestial marriage and hence gain the highest level of glory. They cannot have eternal lives or an eternal increase in posterity.

They can't have spirit children. That means as someone has rightly said that for the women anyways They cannot be eternally pregnant and for the men they cannot be siring these Offspring which is the very power of God the power of God of Mormonism is the power of priesthood and the power of procreation.

And so they cannot become gods. They have been changed so they cannot have that capacity. Well, there is a a brief rendition shall we say of the eternal law of progression. Therefore you see up at the right-hand side Celestial kingdom from there comes spirit children.

That's where the spirit children come in on the left side of the diagram as well. Those who are exalted the status of Godhood them have spirit children with their multiple wives. They organize a planet and they begin the process all over again.

They create an Adam and Eve type Situation they place the bodies within Those particular bodies that they have created and They start the process all over again. Except this time they are worshipped as the gods of those planets.

Okay, I Just got a request from one of my Columbia evangelical seminary students. Unfortunately, they forgot to put the word request in. No capital R then eq you est space 1a. You know someone has asked that I would do.

The presentation I've done on King James only ism on the webcast using my PowerPoint presentation. I think that'd be a good idea. I've put a lot of work into that presentation. I think I'll probably do that down the road somewhere.

And it's gonna be a real simple thing in the subject line I haven't set up yet, so don't send it to me yet. But in the subject line, it's just gonna be 1611. If you can't spell 1611 one six one one. Then you don't you don't want my PowerPoint presentation on the King James only a controversy.

Anyways. So if we do that, no more capital letters. No more nothing. Just one six one one. That's all I'm gonna have in there and That way we don't have to worry about that so If you sent me a request with just 1a you need to have request 1a.

I just sent it out to Rosie and the gobbler. They'll have the presentation here in a few moments. Anyways, that is the situation with the eternal law of progression the spirit children that are placed in the bodies of of The people that you form on the planet and starts it all over again.

And now however, you then will be worshipped as that God and this has happened over and over and over and over again in the Concept that is Mormonism if you go to slide number 23, I think Isaiah chapter 29 verse 16 Really sums it up.

Well You turn things upside down as if the Potter were thought to be like the clay. So what does form say to him who formed it he did not make me can the pot save the Potter he knows nothing. Isaiah 29 16 that's from the New International Version.

I think describes the Mormon doctrine of God perfectly. It's upside down. It thinks the Potter is like the clay. And if you want to see Mormons get upset with you remind them the Bible says that God is the Potter and we are the clay.

That is foreign to Mormonism absolutely foreign to Mormonism. Isaiah 29 16 now, here's what I think we're gonna do. There are four more slides and they are the ten things that I suggest In regards to witnessing the Mormons and we'll start them after the break.

They won't take me too long. And what I'd like to invite you all to do is to get online 866 8 5 4 67 63 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63. Get online if you have a question, that's fine. But what I'd like to do is I'd like to get some role-playing started.

Yes, I would like to role play with you all and If you would like to role play with Elder Han on the webcast. Then dial eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three now I Know that there's a number of folks in the chat room right now who who would be perfect?

For doing the role-playing with me and Since I know a lot of you. In fact, I have everybody's email who has requested this program. What I can do is if you all won't call in that I can start giving out your email address On the air and tell people to send you a note that says chicken.

So why don't you all just you know, just do what's do the right thing? Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three get online and We'll role-play together and we'll talk about Mormonism here on the dividing line.

So while we go ahead and take our break while you all are calling in fill up those phone lines. Eight six six eight five four Sixty seven sixty three we'll be right back.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a o min org.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with us this coming Lord's Day.

Our morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And our worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and Wednesday prayer meeting is at 7. We are located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 26 grace or look us up on the web at www .prbc .org.

Witnessing to Mormons: Patience, Language, and the Central Truths

That's what I call a sudden end to the introduction. It just went it's gone, but hey, we're back it's live Webcasting. That's exactly how it works. And who knows we're in the world. Oh, that's a nice song too, but it just sort of disappeared.

8 6 6 8 5 4 6 7 6 3. It's on the topic of the chat room folks. 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63 and there's some folks in there that need to get on line and roleplay with me people who use nicks like, you know gobbler and monogon and e Nielsen and Hendrick and Rosie and Lagos and you know, it'd be fun to do stuff with spinster and and you know It'd be a lot of fun to have sky man on the air, too.

I think I would like to it would be very interesting to know how sky man Would handle the Mormon missionary at his door named elder Han. And I wouldn't want to roleplay with sky man in life because I think he carries a sawed-off 12-gauge and that's basically how he would deal with with elder Han in in life, but I'm here in Phoenix and I happen to know that sky man is not so maybe sky man would like to call him and Talk to us about Mormonism as well.

But 8 6 6 8 5 4 6 7 6 3 would be the number to call if you would like to get involved in our roleplaying today, so you know, like I said, I do have y 'all's emails and Don't don't make me go there. Don't make me go there.

You don't want to do that. Well, let's look back at the presentation while all these folks are getting online. Let's look at number 24. Slide number 24 as we look at sharing with Latter-day Saints. Sharing with Latter-day Saints.

There are 10 Suggestions that I have for you and I have derived these subjects suggestions from many many years of sharing with the Mormon people. And I hope they are of use to you. The first is probably the most important.

Be patient. Be patient. The problem that many modern-day evangelical Christians have in sharing with Mormons is That you can't simply walk up to a Mormon and hand them the four spiritual laws, even if you liked using such a thing.

That is somewhat like a shooting a 22 at a tank. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't accomplish anything. A four spiritual laws Does not communicate to the Mormon person. You can't just hand them a tract and expect them to hit their knees and repent.

Leaving Mormonism is not like being a Methodist and becoming a Presbyterian or a Lutheran moving from a denomination to another denomination. Mormonism is an entire culture. And so patience is vital. Patience in looking at the long term in witnessing to the Mormon if that's gonna be a possibility maybe a next-door neighbor.

Maybe the Mormon is a relative of yours something along the lines like that. And also long term maybe in your preparation. Maybe in the necessity of you having to do a fair amount of preparation for example people who utilize Tracks that are not really designed for Mormons might find that sharing with Mormons would be a very very difficult thing.

We had a situation number of years ago, for example where a particular interesting group Came along. Sorry, but I will explain my laughter. One of my The same the same student just sent Request 1a request all in capitals with a dash and I had been nice and had sent it to the other one just the 1a.

But I wonder how many different forms can be sent thing from one student and of course our Our good Jehovah's Witness friend that I kicked out last week for making a snide remark about Jesse Jackson. Of course sent request 1611.

There you go. Some wonderful fascinating things that take place when you're live doing a webcast Request 1611 very funny Dan. That's that's that's good. We'll Keep that one for the archives. Anyways, as I was saying there was a church here locally that sent some people out to witness the Mormons at the Easter pageant.

This is about and I remember how long ago it was rich might remember. It was probably the third or Second or third or fourth year, I think that we were out there in in Mesa. Doing this this type of work and some folks from the door showed up 1988 huh, okay AOMN also known as rich says it was 1988 and I Remember clearly and they're still this this thing's still there on the corner of Hobson and Maine and Mesa.

There's a What would you call it it it used to have to do with the farming? Irrigation canals out there now, it's all underwater and this place for control of the irrigation canals is still there on the corner and This guy came out while the Mormons were leaving so that we called the big rush at the end of the evening.

Everybody who came in to the temple grounds through that particular corner. And it's the busiest corner over the course of two hours leaves in about ten minutes. So it's a When the lights are red and do not allow us to people to be crossing a huge groups Develop here and this guy comes out and he stands up on this cement type thing and this concrete type thing I think as rich would rather have me put it this concrete type thing and he starts preaching to the Mormons and He says you need to repent and the Mormons go we did you need to have faith in Jesus we do.

You need to believe he's a son of God. We believe that more than you do You you need to put to believe in God's Word. We have more of it than you do. I mean the guy knew so little about what the Mormons believed that that even though Technically what he was saying was correct since he could not communicate it and since he hadn't taken the time to learn anything about it.

The result was pure mockery. Just just absolute mockery of The the message that he was attempting to to present and so patience both the long-term and patience in Preparation are things that you must have that is the first of the ten things.

You know, I just leaned back and I looked at the at the at the phone and there's no one online and And that means that some of the people have specifically asked to to to participate with us today. Are not yet online now.

I'm sure it's because you all are busy with some other things you're meaning to get to it, but I I I do have email addresses and and I will start using them soon if Few of you guys and maybe a few of you gals.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Aomin is right. What are you chicken? Chicken remember remember remember that from back to the future. Well, this will be this will be back the role-playing eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three number two.

Number two be aware of the language barrier and if you've worked through this process with us so far Then you well know that the language barrier is a high one and If you do not understand what the Mormons mean by God the Father and the significance of father Describing Jesus as the Son of God literally Etc. Etc. Etc.

Then you Obviously are going to have trouble Engaging in conversation with these folks. So you must be aware of the language barrier. You must have a way of scaling because they're not gonna do it. You are the one who must put out the extra effort to be able to Communicate with individuals in a meaningful fashion.

Number three be sensitive to the individuals experience and beliefs and This is important because of the fact it's becoming more and more important as Mormonism Continues to evolve and change back when we first started witnessing the Mormons in the early 1980s There was more Uniformity to LDS belief than there is today.

Of course, there are only a little over three million Mormons there then and now there's more than 11 million. So obviously given such a tremendous growth on the part of Mormonism. You're going to get a corresponding Increase in the viewpoints that people have there are going to be Mormons.

You're going to encounter who do not know Elements of the eternal law of progression. They haven't been exposed to issues such as that. Now you might want to contrast this with for example Jehovah's Witnesses.

You're gonna get a very narrow spectrum of belief with Jehovah's Witnesses especially on the key and central issues. Because the tight control the Watchtower Society exercises Over its individuals and over its teaching and so even then you still Will find different Jehovah's Witnesses who take different views on various and sundry things.

But still in comparison to Mormonism the Jehovah's Witnesses are a much much much narrower group in The views that are going to be expressed to you. So you need to ask the individual questions find out Where they're coming from.

Are they a convert? Are they long time Mormon a lifelong Mormon those things will be helpful to you if you go to the next slide. Number 25 for those of you who may have just been receiving the the material in the in the email.

Oh. It's it's quite interesting when people come into the chat channel anyways. Number four. Focus upon the central truths of the faith. Focus upon the central truths of the faith. What do what do I mean by the central truths?

Well, we've listed the three things That we really strongly encourage people to be focused upon. There is only one God who can save Jesus Christ is our creator the all-sufficient Savior and Salvation is God's gracious gift.

So those three issues who God is who Christ is and What salvation is are the three issues that we strongly encourage people to remain focused upon now. Most of the time when people talk to Mormons and then they call us afterwards or something like that.

They say man, you know, I I feel like we we we talked about everything under the Sun. We we talked about this subject and we only talked about for five minutes and then we were on this this subject and By the time I got done.

I had a headache because I couldn't even figure out where in the world we were. That is a very common experience. If you've been through it, I sometimes in fact, I'll ask the chat room. How many of you in the chat room you've talked to Mormons and you feel like you ended up covering every possible subject?

There was in one conversation and you didn't feel like you ended up getting anywhere as a result. Put your hands up say yeah, why a yeah, that's happened to me. And we'll find out how many folks here in a second to have that happen to them and their experiences.

Part of the reason for that is real simple. If you go into a conversation without a goal. You will come out of the conversation without having gotten there when when you get into a car and You start driving if you don't know where you are supposed to be going.

You're just gonna drive all over the place. You're not actually gonna accomplish what you are attempting to accomplish in driving if you don't have a goal to get to and You can't determine what roads are gonna be the best roads to take if you don't know where you're going.

You're just gonna wander around. So many people get into Conversations with Mormons and They have no idea why in the world they're even in this conversation in the first place let alone do they have a specific goal in mind that they're going toward and so as a result.

Many people feel very frustrated the end of a conversation. Well, you need to have a direction you're going and there are three things that you need to communicate to the Mormon. Who God is who Christ is and what salvation is?

Especially difficult in this context because they think they know the answer to all three questions and. So as a result if you have those as your goals. Then all sorts of the other issues that come up the issues regarding the book of Mormon and the book of Abraham and polygamy and temple ceremonies and false prophecies of Joseph Smith and the first vision all.

The rest of stuff you need to treat them as if they are in essence. Little side roads and let's say you're talking to a person and they are just all focused on the first vision. They just they think the first vision is the be-all and end-all of all things.

And they simply will not listen to what the Bible says about the nature of God. Because the fact that in the first vision Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate and distinct physical Beings and because of that You may have to deal with the first vision.