How to Seek God's Will

Welcome to the laborers podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight tonight. We're gonna be talking about Seeking God's will we want to make sure that we are staying on the biblical track and not veering off into What some would call?

Mysticism stick with us. We hope you will enjoy the show Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love

Network Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into christ subscribe and follow the truth and love network on facebook youtube rumble spotify and iTunes now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast welcome

Welcome to the laborers podcast. Let's let you know. The comment line is open if you're there if you're watching

We would love to hear from you say hello ask a question if we can pray for you Let us know that would be fantastic.

Give us a critique if you would like Tonight we are being joined. There's six of us tonight.

We're so We're thrilled about that. We've got claude With the here

I stand theology podcast John with real talk with big john J the reform recon

I I say that I say that How do

I need to pronounce that jay you're good just say puerto rican and then just replace puerto with reformed the reform

You know, i'll say this real quick before you keep introducing latent flowers tried to pronounce it

Killed it did not do well, so you didn't do worse than him. Anyway, go ahead. Well That's a

That word has a different meaning from where we're from and that's what we were talking about before Before we came on the show.

Um so it's it's Sounds weird for me to say that but jay the reformer recon and check out his podcast

We've got a new face with us tonight. Tony thomas the standard beard care man

And he is soon if i'm not mistaken. He is soon to be starting his own podcast covenant leadership

And I want to give him a shout out I think we showed We showed the little ad video that he did for claude about two weeks ago,

I think But I also want to brag because he sent me Something very special and you can see it right behind me.

His son made this for the labors podcast Check that out sweet It's very nice And in the middle section there,

I don't know how well you can see it But there's lights in there and it lights up and it looks great So we're very i'm very proud of that very thankful for it.

Um and tyler We're out of the word podcast And you're not gonna get to upload one due to hacking this week, right?

Yes Did you at least did you at least get it recorded

No Oh, no, I was booting up my laptop to record and poof viruses so I was out of commission today

Um, so I will be up and running this this week um

I'm gonna be out of the house the next two days um, but I should be good to record, uh

Um starting next week and just just get it out there wrapping up song of solomon next week

After which, uh will be the book of job. I'm very excited for Nice nice Well, since there's six of us,

I appreciate all your patience as everybody has a chance to answer the questions tonight. Um Here we go, we got our first comment from our brother matt happy birthday to the happy calvinist

Thank you, brother, I love you, man Matt is all over the place.

I had a contest for free deodorant that was coming out and he He was one of the winners. Yeah, he's a good dude.

That's a good dude absolutely I totally agree so let's um

Let's jump right in and again, I thank you guys for your patience. Everybody has a chance to answer so tonight we're going to talk about how to seek god's will

And as I mentioned before, um, some people call it getting into mysticism, uh because We want us

We want to get away from Just seeking scripture and what scripture has to say and following his directions

And and falling over into what some people will call mysticism. I don't know I don't know if scripture is just too boring and we

We want to you know Be awed and and see signs and wonders. I i'm not sure and i'm not sure how you guys feel about this subject

So i'm interested to see how it goes Um, but we want to stay on the biblical track of seeking god's will personally and then

As a as a local church because And it depends on which setting that you're in.

Um, some folks are in a setting where You may be more elder led

And the congregation makes less decisions But the pastors that let the elders they need to know how to make decisions and seek god's will but then if you're in a more congregational style and the congregation gets to Chime in and help make decisions and you are seeking corporately what god wants for the church how do we help our congregation from slipping over into Mysticism i'm just for lack of a better term mysticism and seeking things that they shouldn't see

How to help them stay biblical seeking god's will so, um Let's start at the top

Start at the top should we pray for or seek signs? to show us direction

So I would like to begin by sharing scripture yes Other 18

In verse 17 the one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him so With that i'm deferring my turn

Passing it on man Well, I mean i'm inclined to think this is almost a trick question because We're to be a people who pray all the time for starters and When I when you say seek signs, i'm curious as to What are you talking about exactly?

Okay, so and this is going to be good Because you're coming from a little different background. We're going to maybe speak a little bit different language in this area.

Um, And so I guess where i'm coming from when I say should we pray or seek for signs?

so I'm i'm driving down the road and I i'm praying

Lord, what color do you want my next car to be i'm looking to buy a car? What color car do you want me to have?

And then you drive by this billboard and there's this big red sign. Oh, and it's just bright as it could be and then the next song on the radio is

Little Red what's princess song? Is it is it red beret or red corvette?

Oh raspberry beret. Yeah, little red grass. Yeah So little red

Comes on and you're like boom that must be god speaking to me Because there's a red sign and there's there's the song on the radio little red corvette.

Um, so he must want me to buy red car um, so should we

Should we be praying for seeking these signs? From god to help us make decisions not not like not for starters not like that.

I mean that I don't know if that was The we'll use the example because that's what you've given and I assume i'm going to assume that's what you mean by it.

Uh, start with I think things like What color of a car you drive? To some degree silly right

Yeah, I think I think part of the problem He and I don't

I'll stop after this or somebody else can answer but I'm going to say the short answer. No Right, we shouldn't we shouldn't be praying that way because that's not even in line with scripture

When we're praying we're to be praying for god's will to be accomplished, right? We've been told how to pray christ tells us how to pray and there's no reason to deviate from that so uh

I think that that's That might be a uniquely American problem because we're so narcissistic

In our approach to the bible that when we read it We think about how this applies to me as opposed to what this says about jesus in the first place.

So short answer no And I would honestly add on to that from um what jesus told thomas

You see you believe because you have seen but blessed are those who believe and haven't seen that are

The faith in god is not necessarily tied to the big neon signs to the external public indicators, but it's who god is

And what we're told in james if any of you lacks wisdom to ask god not for signs but ask for wisdom for discernment

Yep, I think it's easy when we get when we start thinking about signs and confirmation to Honestly focus on the wrong thing to focus on getting the the outward indication to validate what we

May or may not be feeling led to do As opposed to seeing the will of god maybe as more of something we abide in Something that flows out of our relation with god that everything we do

Is tied to god granting his wisdom to where I don't need to Um see a big neon sign

Over my head to say I need to bring this person in my home But this is

This is a good this is what god has told us to do in his word Let's walk in it Right, I think it was important what you just said there at the end, uh

God has told us what he's done in his word. He's given us his revealed word so what was the you know, and this this might play into a future question here, but Um, you know, what what was the brian's sign that they know that paul was speaking true

Uh, because god had already revealed his word. They examined the scriptures Um, so god has already revealed, you know his will for us.

He's given us certain he's given us his law He's given us his precepts. Um, and you know as the 1689 would prescribe he will work through his his his will and secondary means so You know again that'll play into some some questions here later on so I don't want to go too far but I would say he's already given us his revealed word

Not that the miraculous can't happen that he's far from the miraculous or being able to make the miraculous happen but uh

I'd say we know what his revealed will is for us Yeah, and and just to Just to speak on that just a second um

What what we're what we're talking about right now what we're looking for is is how How to make that decision um

And so we can we can look back and we can maybe see those things And and john you were right.

That was that was a silly example but it's It's sad how sometimes in those serious decision -making times.

Yeah, that's how people often and it probably comes from anxiety I need an answer so i'm i'm looking and i'm looking for all these

Coincidental things happening and then attribute it to god speaking to me I would say that there's that I do believe that there's confirmation

Of things and I can give examples to that. Uh, there have been more than one time

That in my own personal walk with christ in prayer and study

I recall a Period not long after I was converted that I was studying through joshua

And uh, I was studying through joshua and I had bought a book kind of like to help to help with the study of joshua and uh

There was a there was a portion that I was I was hung up on and I kept reading it and I kept reading it And I was like, man,

I really wish I could get a better understanding of this and then I go to church sunday and The pastor says and something to the effect of his non -direct quote

He said really been troubled in my spirit about something that i've been reading and then he answered the question that I had asked but it wasn't

The colors in the rainbow or colors on the sign it wasn't flowers blooming it was legit, you know

I've been studying this portion of scripture And I hope this helps somebody out and I was like help me out didn't help nobody else out

So I believe in that kind of confirmation. I believe that god still uses his word and he answers prayers to his word

I believe that god still speaks to his word to people and if we have ears to hear It's all wrote down.

I mean it ain't like he's trying to hide it. I mean That's right, but it's revealed by his holy spirit.

And uh So I believe in this type of confirmation. I don't know if that's what you mean when you say duke

Should we be seeking a sign? I know the next one says do we use things to provide? Confirmation, I might skip the head robert.

I'm, sorry. Well, well, no, I I think you're keeping us in line there Um, I totally i'm totally on board with you with that.

God gives confirmation. I'm totally on board with what tony was telling us about God's able to perform miracles and do as he pleases.

Um, the trouble comes on our end of it and and giving credit to god where We don't have that ability, you know, unless it's from his word, you know, just like we're talking about john and so we're giving credit to god when

Maybe when we when it's over and done with and we can look back and we can see where god was moving And but we're just not in that position to be able to do that and I think that's

You're you're keeping us in line by telling us, you know, stick with scripture stay with scripture um

I I I think there's one thing that we have to keep in mind. So gentlemen Hopefully all of you know the answer to this.

I really hope you do What is the chief end of man? Glorify god and enjoy him forever.

There it is to glorify god and enjoy him forever, right? So um I'm thinking about this question kind of like, you know in everyday things that we're trying to decide whether it's you know

Let's say you get two job offers, right? You you got two jobs They both seem good.

Um Well, what's the question that we need to ask, you know, how can

I most glorify god? With each of these jobs and some people might be tempted to oh

This one has more benefits or this one has this or this one has that But I think the first objective

Is to say how can I glorify god through this now? In the in the in terms of a job, right?

Like when we're looking for a job, hopefully what you're thinking about is how can I provide for my family, right? That's what we're called to do.

This is why we got to turn back to the scriptures um But once you think about that, right?

And you pray for wisdom and you pray for guidance right and and god will give you through that like like john was kind of saying

You know, uh pastors will say something a friend Will guide you

Um, you got to surround yourself with people who who you know are in tune with god and his word

Uh, because you don't know everything Right, and so god uses ordinary means

To to um to guide us, right? It's kind of like proverbs 16 9, right? Um, Uh man plants, but but the lord establishes his steps

Yep, right. I I think we we can't be so scared of making the wrong decision

I'm, not saying that we shouldn't think about this carefully. We should um, but at the same time we know that god is sovereign, right and so Using my example of like, you know, which which job should

I use or should I take? Well, okay. Is it is one of them say for example a bouncer of a strip club?

um Probably not that one. You know what I mean? um but but You know, it both seem like hey, they might be good jobs.

They might be something where I can glorify god in Uh, and I can provide for my family

Then I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, you know what? I I will choose the one that I think i'll enjoy more

You know, I I think that sometimes we put so much emphasis on You know lord,

I need you to answer me Right and i'm not saying that every decision is easy. It's not Sure, but we have to be careful not to make this over emphasis on god

I need you to speak to me right now and I need you. No like he has given us his word We know what's right. We know what's wrong.

And so We pray for wisdom. We pray for guidance. We use the ordinary means that god has given us um

And we go from there trusting in him that no matter what decision we make ultimately he is sovereign and it's all gonna work out so Amen, I think you definitely were

Echoing what matt was saying here scripture may not give us a direct answer about specific questions or situations But we need to look to the principles outlined in scripture and apply those in many situations there

Yeah, there may be multiple answers that are perfectly acceptable and I think that's exactly what you were echoing.

Yeah, absolutely 100 And and we touched on the second question does god use things to provide confirmation

And and yes, I think we answered in the affirmative there but it's it's within scriptural guidelines, um

As as john was talking to us about as jay was telling us about having friends having confidants

Brothers and sisters in christ that are that are praying themselves that are in god's word themselves. That's right

They can they can speak to you scripture. Um Recall things maybe that you're unable to Um, that's right and can give you wisdom any any last comments on those first two questions and we kind of we kind of touched on number three too, but uh, we can we can hit it just so that we can um

Make sure that we're we're learning to stay within when the boundaries of decision making biblical boundaries of decision making

How do we understand confirmations? without being mystical or superstitious Um, can we provide a definition for mystical beforehand

Because that has a different connotation, uh, it's been used a couple different ways Yeah, so I I will so Uh, for example tyler as as we've started with question one and two right should we pray for signs to seek god's direction?

Question two is that does god use things to provide confirmation? And then how do we understand confirmations without being mystical or superstitious?

So the idea of being mystical or superstitious Um in in theological language might be gnostic about it, right?

So we're looking for Uh, we're we're trying to read god in or to isajit

Activities and actions in our lives as being the providence of god and I will say this that um coming from uh

Being a country man myself and growing up and hearing folks, you know, because Everybody likes to sound spiritual, right?

I mean we all probably know the person who Before they go and and and I hate this.

I hate this story, but i'm gonna tell it because it's a true story Charles stanley right shares a test shared a testimony one time about praying what turkey he needed to get when he went in the store a lot of people will try to uh, you know, because it really and it may not it may even be a an unconscious

Super holiness that they think they have right or you you don't pray what milk you're going to get before you go into the grocery store

If you're from certain areas of the country, you know, what kind of milk you got You know what your options are

If waggles has got milk i'm gonna get waggles milk over mayfield milk every day because somehow gas station milk is just better Right Okay, but but that uh, it would would that be a very

Mean or simple illustration robert of what you were talking about there mystifying

You know mystifying basic decisions in our lives and so, um

In that um I I think again that we just in not to sound overly simplistic or overly rational but Sometimes you just got to make the decision

And live with the outcome Like what j that's what jay was getting at. I think yeah earlier right you're faced with two jobs

You know You know, you're bruce almighty you're praying god show me a sign you're driving down the road There's all these blinking arrows, right?

There's the the truck that passes him with all the signs on the back But when in reality we have to base our

Actions our decisions and and I think decisions is the right term It's a reasonable and rational term rational term that we have to make our decisions based on as matt said principle

Based on what we know in the scriptures and as far as that confirmation goes man,

I I Well, I don't have the keys on i'll have to switch my soundboard here

But I was ready to play the keys when john was talking there about confirmation because the key is this

The key is this when brothers and sisters in christ are in the word

You can believe that it's likely we're going to be on the same page Yeah, and so when you when you are struggling with issues or questions in your life

You know theological or personal whatever the case may be if you're part of a local body

Where the word gets preached consistently and faithfully if you're in the word Your pastor is in the word.

The people are in the word. You are not going to be able to go to church on sunday morning without coming out with some kind of Confirmation or affirmation

And all because simply because it's rooted and grounded in the word of god itself.

Amen Correct. Yeah, and and i'll just give a more extreme example And some people may not agree with me, but I I think it touches on it enough to be

Really close to being related to what we're talking about when we say mysticism and superstition So we know from scripture that we're not supposed to talk to the dead.

We're not supposed to practice witchcraft We're not supposed to read the stars and stuff like that. We know that from scripture but How we practice our relationship with god often

Looks very similar to how those folks practice those things. So when we're asking or seeking for a sign from god, just like a a

Fortune teller will read tarot cards. What do we do? We read coincidental signs

Right and and reading those as if that's how god speaks to us Or a certain way we pray or certain words we use or the intensity um

We think that is invoking something from god when and that's how those folks practice their ways um

And so we we adopt those forms and ways because we think we can invoke some kind of answer from god right, and I think it's related to it enough to be called mysticism and superstition

Yeah, and and I think too one of the challenges like for what you what how you just explained that I think one of the challenges for many christians is reading texts like james

The effectual fervent prayer. I believe the king james is the effectual fervent prayer, right? Let's talk about the white hot right the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Right, so we think if I can just pray harder The reality is as you just said rob.

There are times where we try to muster up intensity

And we assume that our intensity is god As the one who is doing the intensification process when it's nothing but us

That there are genuinely times when we pray where we can't help but be

White hot to be fervent in our prayers to be uh, maybe more

Intense than we were in the times before but we we must continue to go back that None of that is based upon us, but it's based upon the faithfulness of almighty god

That's good. How much of this do you think is is stemmed or rooted? in some form of personal idolatry

Because every example that i've heard somebody used that y 'all haven't given tonight or the one that y 'all that y 'all have given here tonight typically have the same

The same feeling in what you're saying and it's something I heard charles stanley say all the time and I can't stand it

I can't stand it. Well, there's two I can't stand charles stanley's what's what he said Well, and it's not just him, but he's the one

I heard say it the most he'd say God and his plan for your life every time he said that I threw up a little bit

It's as if to say somehow or another there's seven million different plans. God's got going on because there's seven million people or Maybe it's maybe it's the wrong number.

Maybe it's b. I don't know seven billion people and I want to say how many times man It's like it's right here

It's the wrong question. It's the wrong question. I've got a problem with judah, right and it gets up to eight or micah six

He's told you what is good That the lord requires of you only to act justly to love faithfulness and to walk humbly with your god.

God is not You know schizophrenic. It's not like he's given different variances of the same thing.

He wants you to do throughout scripture It's it's pretty consistent Love the lord with all your heart with all your mind with all your soul.

Love your neighbor as yourself and And so many times people are talking about seeking the silence because of some selfishness in their own life

They're sitting on the throne and their theology God is somehow another their genie that they rub the lamp and he gets unlimited number of wishes in some form

Of of idolatry. I don't know what kind of idolatry it is. I don't know if there's more than one kind I don't know how it works, but I the last thing

We need in america is more people talking about how god can do more for you And and and how church is somehow a culmination of all the blessings god plans on giving you

I get frustrated while frustrated with that john. I i've you're on fire here.

So I want to ask you a question Um, would you say that um that this has to do more with american individualism uh sneaking into the church or do you think this is something that We can see across the board in different places throughout the world

Well, I can't answer that honestly I've never been all the way around the world and I don't study stuff like it and I don't know that I know what american

Individualism is Uh, I know what selfishness looks like And and that's what it looks like to me.

It looks like selfishness. I've been told that in other countries Whenever people read scripture

They read scripture and they decide what does this say about god? We've been taught in america when we read scripture.

What does this say about me? Right, how does this apply to me? I've I don't know how to tell somebody to read scripture that way because If if you're reading scripture to see how each one of these applies specifically to you

Then you're not going to have concrete truth in it You're not you can't you can't because this becomes your truth or some nonsense like that Oh Preach see the reason

I see the reason I wanted to flesh that out a little bit with definitions is there is such a term as Christian mysticism and I was actually talking to this talking to somebody about this last weekend that at the bookstore

I work at Because that was a term that you can trace through church history with like augustine and some of these people

It was very big in like the medieval period But it's different than what we're talking about radically different because the foundation was the word but it was recognizing that We don't just come at this with our with our brains

And I just have it within me to fully understand this book, but god has to give me understanding So who is god?

What is his will? How does what are his attributes? Who is his god? I claim to serve

I was reading casadoras yesterday. He was talking about how we by nature have a veiled heart And that is unveiled only by the work of god in us

Open thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things in thy law amen

And that's how the term mysticism used to be used was a recognition that this isn't just a book but this is this is

This flows from the character of god, which means the only way we can Make any use of this book

Is for god to reveal himself For us to pursue god that he would reveal himself to us that there's that cycle but we somehow we've devolved that into signs and um like you were talking about with superstition with Tarot cards and how can

I manipulate the system to get what I want as opposed to sitting at the feet of christ and being

Taught by god Amen. It says in psalm 119 teach me thy statutes blessed art thou

How do we get away from that I'm sorry,

I got a little choked up there. It's okay preach My family opened up our home

Several months ago to a teenage teen to a teenager that was in a bad scenario And like I said, we didn't we didn't need a neon sign telling us open your home

Sure, we just did it because this is what god calls us to do is to welcome the stranger to Welcome the orphan to Exemplify christ to people and through circumstances we had no control over she was ripped out of our home

And that did negate that god was still good that this was still god's will Because sometimes there's no return.

There's no positive return to obeying god. Sometimes it hurts Sometimes it doesn't make sense

But god is so good this is still what he calls us to do who he calls us to be And so we sit at his feet and say teach me

Yeah Open mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things in thy law

Well, i'll try to follow i'll try to follow that up but That's such good stuff but to go back to jay's question about american individualism, that's definitely a real thing but As somebody that's stepped foot on every continent except for an arctican, you know, so I can't tell you how an arcticans feel about this but They're cold.

Yeah the mysticism you're talking about um Kind of the more modern use of mysticism.

You're going to go to some continents where it's worse Um, they don't claim to be christians. They're reading the same bible.

They may have a an esv or an nasb just like you do And they're it's like a completely different bible

Now and we link that to maybe some problems in america where certain faiths that are decided that are disguised as christianity have uh

Stepped in and they're the ones planting churches and they're the ones building hospitals. And so this false, uh form of christianity has stepped in Yeah, absolutely.

So, um where that starts where it began Does it start with american individualism?

I don't know but I can definitely tell you it does have an effect, uh on Every continent in this, uh in this world save for antarctica

Well, and where you got where you guys just took us is where I was going leading me to the the question number four

Uh, you I mean you guys took us right there um, because I think there there is a problem and sometimes

The terminology may not be wrong or incorrect It's just the terminology that we're most familiar with and so When we say we're seeking god's will we're most familiar with it looking like this so And this may be more to leadership

Would it be more or would it be less confusing if we want to lead our our people into the right direction?

Instead of using the terminology seeking god's will not that it's wrong

Um, but using other terminology like making a biblical decision, do you think that's wise as a leader

Yes Yeah, uh, I was in a situation not that long ago

Well just a couple years ago So i'm getting out of the military, uh because of the expertise that I have in certain areas and the degrees that I have

I was offered a really really good job great job Uh, but because of what was going on with covet at the time and and arizona's response to it at that time

Uh, the job may not be there or may have been delayed for a while So my military pay was going to run out

Um, and I didn't know if I could wait on this job if in fact it was going to be delayed So i'm praying for it and what i'm asking for is not so much a sign, but i'm asking for discernment

I'm seeking scripture. What do I do here? And then out of nowhere came Just because of some family issues

My father may not have been able to continue to run a family business by himself. That's been in the family for over 20 years um

So i'm looking at my immediate family first mission first That's what i'm looking at. But now i've got an opportunity to affect the lives of my entire family extended family

Um to include generation past us. So we talked about building to the generation and to the third generation

So i'm looking at that as now that's a biblical principle That's a biblical decision so that it wasn't even a choice, you know,

I stepped right in and said no i'll help you run this business Don't worry about the other job Hmm Well, let's transition over to to leadership.

What do you guys feel about leadership and and the direction as as a pastor elder leader in a church

Uh, let's say your church has to make a decision As a as a whole And so we want to see god as a whole we want to make a biblical decision as a whole but the issue is

There's more than one of Us and where there's more than one of us there's going to be more than one opinion

And one person may say well god's god's leading God's telling me we need to go in this direction

You know another person say I feel like god's telling us we need to go in this direction What's step one?

Let's start at the beginning What do we need to tell our congregation? Do we need to teach them how to make decisions?

Yes, anybody want to start us off if i'm a pastor. How do I start? that's exactly okay, so Is your question based on a uh, a entire congregation being affected or looking to make a decision or Uh individuals.

Well, I again I would start on the individual basis Particularly if you're talking about a congregational uh polity

Right, so where the church like you mentioned at the beginning right where the the whole church would vote on an issue or matter

You still as a pastor This is exactly this is I learned this years ago.

You have to start with the individual You can't go with the majority because the problem is if if the majority is crooked

It don't matter how straight you try to go You're going to veer off the wrong way

So it starts with the individual And concerning individual decision making I would go straight to the text of scripture

I would go to something like titus. This is where i've i've brought this up here titus 2

And i'm gonna read quite a bit of scripture here But it's very very important because this sets the foundation this sets the the stage so Uh, it pauls letter to titus as for you teach what accords with sound doctrine start right there

What's sound doctrine god's word? You've got to start with there if you don't if you start anywhere other than god and his word

You're off on the you're hopping off on the wrong foot right off the bat Older men be sober -minded

Dignified self -controlled sound in faith in love and steadfastness older women Likewise are to be reverent in behavior not slanderers or slaves to much wine

They are to teach what is good and to train the young women to love their husbands and children to be self -controlled

Pure working at home kind and submissive to their own husbands that the word of god may not be reviled

Likewise urge the younger men to be self -controlled Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works

And in your teaching show integrity dignity and sound speech that cannot be condemned

So that an opponent may be put to shame having nothing evil to say about us Bond servants are to be submissive.

So let me stop here. So again on the individual basis It's where it goes. It's where it starts.

So you've got in the church. You've got old and you've got young You've got men

And you've got women. That's all there is right There's young and old men and women bottom line.

And so the scriptures concerning our lives Teach very plainly right old men

Sober -minded clear -headed right not to get caught up in everything. Although there's times that happens, right?

Because there's been plenty of times where somebody is Has smacked other people or even threatened if you're from the country

My father -in -law tells stories of a preacher being threatened to be shot right after a service was over because of what he preached

But in any case, right? Individual level sober dignified self -controlled sound in faith in love older women younger men younger women

So on and so forth. It's a teaching process. It's a continual teaching process It doesn't happen overnight, but it takes of what what when it does happen is when uh, the the man of god the then the elders of a congregation again,

I would even go to that start as that as Insert inject that in that a biblical congregation

Right is not led by the congregation itself, but by elders Right because that's why god placed the elders and what's the chief purpose of of the congregation in any direction

It's always to make sure that it's sound in doctrine Sound in faith and so we see that and then we see in verse 9 bond servants are to be submissive

To their own masters and everything there to be well pleasing not argumentative not pilfering but showing all good faith

So that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of god our savior Now some people may read that or may read that and just have blocked out everything

But man, there's enough conviction in that in those 10 verses, right? To cause us to be repenting for a good bit because we recognize how short we come in that Yeah, but then the good news comes verse 11 for the grace of god has appeared to all men teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldliness we should um

We should renounce worldly passions live self -controlled upright Godly lives when in this present age in this present time waiting for our blessed

Hope the appearing of in glory of our great god and savior. Jesus christ

Who did what who gave himself for us to redeem us to purify us

A lawless and a lawless people to purify for himself of people for his own possession

Who are zealous for good works and then he said declare these things with all authority Let no one disregard you and and i'd encourage the the listeners to to read on there because I mean, it's it's a billy mays infomercial.

But wait, there's more There's so much there. There's so much good in the text of scripture

So as as a from a pastor in the elder position, I would say let's start here concerning decisions

Right, then when the decisions come as they come throughout the years There's a like matt mentioned in his comment earlier.

There's a principled approach to the decision making process Right, and it may be that they're one of those decisions

I don't I don't know if this is what you had in mind But but just along these lines one of the decisions that may affect a congregational

Policy is do we move to an elder led? Right An elder like an elder led model, which is biblical, right?

Do we move from a one pastor model and a congregational vote to an elder led model?

And certainly there's there's little or I call them little decisions, right? You've heard church split fight, right?

One group wants to carpet this color one wants to carpet that color which is stupid bottom line

It's stupid and that's that's the problem though. It's everybody knows the current color brings glory to god.

That's exactly right Thank you jesus

Oh My goodness But you know to that that's where that's exactly where uh as a as an elder as a pastor myself

That's exactly where we go to we point to the individual level the individual gets aligned with god

It's their heart as we say in the country right with god There's feedback.

Is that me? Sorry But they get their heart right with god, sorry guys,

I should have shut up a minute ago, but no you good I guess this would be my follow -up question then and I totally agree with you and I was following you when you were talking about a crooked state because in churches you can you can start off with a majority that's crooked whether it be um

It's it's a family centric church. Yep. Yeah. Yep. 95 % of them don't show up until it's time to vote for something.

Yep And so that that's your majority But on the other hand, let's say the elders have led their congregation

In this manner that you were talking about They begin to seek individually, but they begin to seek god's word.

They begin to seek him in prayer And and they're doing this faithfully now you're coming back to where the rubber is meeting the road.

It's time to make a decision Are are you looking for that majority? Do you think god leads the congregation in a majority consensus?

And anybody anybody can answer I want to say something about some of this very thing I was reading in acts.

It's always kind of troubled me a little bit and i'm going to put it to fellas who Who know more than I do?

All right, so we're all well aware of acts chapter 1 Right, so you get to this part here

Uh 15 1 15 during the days peter stood up among the brothers and number the people were together about 120

And we went from 500 after the resurrection now we whittled down to 120 right for those keeping up For you viewers at home brothers the scriptures has been fulfilled that the holy spirit through the mouth of david spoke in advance about judas

Who became a guide to those who arrest jesus? For he was one of of our number and allotted a share in his in this ministry

Now this man acquainted a field with his unrighteous wages and falling headfirst first open in the middle

And his inside spilled out This became known all This became known to all the residents of jerusalem, so they're just uh in our language the field is called

All right, tyler. Am I gonna say it right? How could how could dharma? Sounds right to me.

Thank you. This is the field of blood for it is written in the in the book of the psalms Let us dwell and become desolate so no one living it let someone else take his position

So now they're quoting a psalm here and they're applying it in this position therefore

Uh from among men who have accompanied us during the whole time the lord jesus went in out from among us

Beginning from the baptism of john till the day he was taken up from us among these it is necessary That one become witnesses with us of his resurrection.

So they They uh proposed to Joseph called bursavus or bar.

Yeah, okay and and other justice uh and matthews And when they prayed the lord, uh, you lord know the hearts and all show which of these two you've chosen to take the place in the apostolistic service

And judas, uh that judas left to go to his own place and when they cast lots for them the lot fell on matthews

So he was numbered with the 11 apostles now see to me

I didn't I don't see where there was the need to to make matthews

Judas's replacement. I didn't see where jesus told them to do that. I don't see where there's any direct guidance from scripture

And part of me says is this is this the guys? Spending a bunch of time together in prayer being led of the lord in this manner

Is this an example of what you're talking about, uh, brother robert where this Uh, we're all getting together

Let's figure out if this is if this is something that we need to that we need to cast lots over what so The question is open.

Uh Is this is this the way that that you think the lord would had them behave in scripture?

Were they in alignment with what that what jesus's will is for them? And is this an example?

Is this an example question two of? What you mean when you say pray about it and then make a decision and whatever the decision is is whatever the decision is and go

Anybody want to take a stab at that? Um, I just want to say one thing we have to keep in mind that with the book of acts

It's definitely descriptive It's not necessarily prescriptive correct

And um, we can definitely take examples from acts. Don't get me wrong. That's not what i'm saying but Who was judas's replacement really?

I mean, there's a case to be made that it was paul Yeah, i've heard people like john macarthur say that they should have waited on paul before they done it

So so that could have been it. I mean i'm not i'm not making a doctrine here I'm, not saying we have to be dogmatic about anything

But we have to be careful and I think that's what happens a lot With with christians nowadays, right?

We we look at something that happens in scripture and we say That's what I gotta do, you know, and it's you know, maybe you're reading the verse where where it says bow down to me and all that you see will be

Will be yours and it's the devil talking to jesus. Maybe you shouldn't do that, you know Um, so so we have to be very cognizant of the context of what we're reading

And sure that includes you know, is this something that's just describing something that happened

Or is this something that i'm supposed to imitate so i'm just gonna leave it there i'll let somebody else talk Well, thank you.

And that's true. And in that kind of in that same stream of thought. Um, this is not even the

The baby church, this is the church still in the womb and you you have the rest of the apostolic teaching throughout the rest of the new testament where He's pleading with him, you know, don't go back

To the to the old covenant don't go back. Yeah, you know stick with jesus and It's apostolic teaching all the way through so Even then after the church was birthed and they're still learning.

They're still growing, you know, and he's teaching them you know, don't don't do this don't so this may be in a place where you know

They were it was a common practice maybe That maybe i'm not sure i'm not sure either

Yeah, we're obviously pre -pentecost here still. Yeah, and being that there were 12 of them They they clearly understood the symbolism of the 12.

So now this is gone. You can easily see okay We who's replacing jews sure I understand their drive to do this.

They make it clear their reasoning behind it My question is is this something that you think is led of the lord?

Or is this something you think is led of themselves? And if you don't know, I mean, I don't know that's why i'm asking uh I don't uh, you know, i've never really read a study on this particular passage of scripture

But in my reading of scripture i've come across this many times and i've always scratched my head And I thought

I wonder I wonder their logic here Because they were given what seems to be clear instruction.

Terry you in jerusalem to you being due of power from on high, right? He didn't tell them how long this was going to take

He didn't tell them that there would be signs leading up to this right just you'll know

There will be no mistake and then on the day of pentecost fully come they they knew everybody knew right?

It was there was no mistaking it uh And then the argument to be made of course that paul would say that he's an apostle as one unnaturally born later on, right?

Uh one who didn't consider himself an apostle but he was nonetheless he defended his position, but When I when

I see this And i'm listening to questions that I hope People from my camp listen to this podcast

And if they were to pull up this scripture I would not give them as this is an example of a prescriptive way to behave

Even though it is totally in scripture to use brother jay's Language here you understand? however

How do you answer this question when you're asked? Is this a form of biblical leadership?

Is this a form of we see a problem? Let's address it as a church I think we would admit that they did address it

As the 120 they gathered together and determined this Will make sure these fellas are the ones that we pick from and then we would see this later on in acts chapter 6

Whenever they would decide to pick seven men full of the holy spirit and wisdom to be elders or be to be servants to wait the tables

You see the church gather together and make decisions Right. Is this?

Is this decision made differently than the one that was made in acts whenever they whenever they laid hands on stephen and Well, I think we have to look at this.

Um In light of the psalms that they reference Okay, first and foremost, um, psalm 109

Yeah, I was just reading through it myself and it seems to be I think Typology that points to the betrayal of christ

Okay with a false accuser who is brought under condemnation

And um, I would think that just as this generic unnamed false accuser came under condemnation

For false accusations against the psalmist Who our tradition tradition says is david

So we have judas the false false accuser who is a guide to the romans who betrayed christ and As it says let his days be few and let another take his place

And so I think the immediate context of acts chapter 115 Is that This is in fulfillment of Of the old testament typology of christ that he was betrayed and the one who betrayed him is replaced

And that they're I guess you could say acting that out in a very real sense, but it wouldn't necessarily apply that to we fired youth pastors, so let's

May his days be a few and let us uh, have someone take his place I think that's a different scenario.

Um, I could under youth pastors youth pastors So tyler,

I I I I agree with what you're saying there. I I do and going back to the scripture and so again reading back forward into acts where john took us there so We we know that this is not a misappropriation or a misquoting or a miss, uh, uh incorrect exegesis or quotation of a

Biblical passage because we have it in the inspired text, right? Yes. So we have

Uh them standing up. They're they're making this affirmation

They they have the confirmation of the word there And i'll be the guy i'll be the guy of the night that says this it sounds super unspiritual but I john

I would say They were doing the best They knew how to do based upon the word of god

Right there okay, I I I appreciate you putting it that way. I just think that uh, you know, we need to We need to take scripture as we see it and that's right best applied and and not act as if though It's not there.

It is there and I need to To read the whole thing in any case, uh, I you know, and I totally accept that logic and that reasoning behind it

And I appreciate your wisdom behind it Come get the facts as best we understand them

Here's another here's another button. Oh, yeah I'll throw one thing out here real quick and i'm gonna have to go here in a minute because I think i'm about to lose

Power i'll be better prepared for my my next one rookie mistake But god being sovereign knowing the plans that he has for us but knowing also

Again, i'll go back to chapter 5 in 1689 working through primary means and his secondary meaning You've got matthias and then later on we said we have paul

We go back to the old testament to the 12 tribes again, you've got two half tribes in there So really you still have 12 with you've got matthias and you've got paul coming later on now to form 12

In a sense almost being two half tribes because they were originally apostles, so God is revealing himself easily through scripture.

Um, By the testimony of two to three people, you will know he's true That's now two instances you see of that.

So I think that is the word being confirmed that this is that's good in divine words, so I will uh, i'm not just a beard.

Is that right? He he showed up from the beard up today Yeah, I told you

I also paint for a living. So you're just seeing a nice shirt everything from down down here is covered I will i'm gonna end that there because I I did forget my cord and i'm about to uh,

I'm about to to blow this thing here in just a second. So well, tony, we appreciate you Thank you, brother. Nice to meet you brother.

Tony. Yes, it was Love you guys, thanks for inviting me So so let me post two questions two last questions and we'll wrap it up so John, I think

I think where you led us also is leading us to Something else that could be applicable for our lives.

So we would say You talked about them casting lots And and we would say that kind of reverts back to what we're talking about earlier looking

Trying to invoke an answer from god trying to seek seek a sign I think Okay, so we we would if somebody is taking that approach in our congregation

How would you lovingly? Steer them in the right direction correct that path

I think i'd uh I would have to do much like what brother claude did i'd have to say

What are y 'all doing this for You you tell me with your own words why you're you've taken this path

And then let them say whatever it is that got them there and hopefully they can hear how stupid it sounds

Yeah, and if they hear how stupid it sounds when they get through saying it then you'll say you see the problem here

And if they don't see the problem there, then you take them you can take them to axe and say now Show me where mathis or matthias or however you say his name is ever mentioned again in scripture as doing anything for the church

Show me Show me what this really mattered. Yep Show me where it matters because here's what

I always boils down to me is this is his story And this is his And the second we get we try to take and share in his story or his glory or sinning

We're we're sinning yeah, and and whenever you make yourself more than what we ought to be made into You're out of line

So, let me let me combo this last last one because I also wanted to tag into our other conversation um

So our congregation has come back together. We're making that decision and you you are now in the minority

How do you submit and then Tagging on to that is the last question.

How can we live with confidence once a decision is made? Knowing knowing full well

I go I go I go with it. I make the decision and I may have You know messed up with the wrong direction in in my mind

So, so how do we submit if we're the minority and how can I live with confidence? In christ once I make that decision

Um, well, I think that um You know,

I can't remember which scripture it says says this but it says consider others more important than yourself and You know as much as I often fail to do that.

I'll just be very honest um because i'm i'm human and You know,

I I wish I could say no. I I definitely do that a lot I I don't you know, I I actually fail a lot at considering others more important than myself, but when

I look to christ and how he humbled himself in spite of Being who he is

Right abandoning all comfort and and and everything that um

That he had And humbling himself to the point of a servant to the point of a mere human being being fully god

I mean that's embarrassing to me You know how I can even? Think that I deserve more than what

I have um And so when I when I put things into that perspective

It really is not all that hard to submit And say glory to god

Um his will be done and kind of tying that to um, how can

I be okay with whatever outcome happens based on whatever decision I make well, I I think the first thing that you should ask yourself is

Did I make that decision for myself or for the glory of god? Now if the answer is

Maybe it was kind of for myself Well, you know what god is still sovereign

And whatever we do Doesn't change his plans because even when um

Even when when people do wicked things Yeah, god works all things together for the good of those who love him come on now so You can't you can't beat god's plan

You can't screw this up. You know what I mean? Like And we have to rest

In that truth. We have to rest in the fact that hey god is sovereign And he's gonna take care of us.

That's right. Amen It may it things may get ugly You know, i'm not saying that things are always pretty the apostles, you know what happened to all but one of them

They died in all kinds of horrible ways And even john the apostle john, um, he may not have died in a horrible way, but he certainly went through horrible things.

Yeah um But in the end we win That's right

And it's because he's already won Amen You know, there's really nothing that you can do

To go against god's will He's already got it. That's right

I think about romans 8 18 For I reckon that the sufferings this world are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us

That's right All right, so to to john and jay's words

Yeah, yeah Somebody take a hot laugh

Well, let's I appreciate you guys so much I think that was helpful and I hope I hope folks will join in listen later and listen again and be edified by what you guys had to say and That god be glorified in it

Jay would you mind to share the gospel with us tonight and big john? Will you close us in prayer? Yes, sir.

Yeah, absolutely um, well for anybody listening who um May not be a believer or maybe you do think you're a believer um

I think that when when I understood something Is when I really?

Understood what the gospel meant and that is that i'm worse than I even Than I even know

What's what's you know when we're faced with With questioning right when somebody asks you a question.

Hey, like do you do you I do you think you're a sinner? You may say yeah

But Do you actually believe it? Because as soon as I say, hey, well, wait a minute, but you're a liar because you've you've told countless lies or you you are

You're a murderer because you have hated people in your heart What what's the natural gut reaction?

No, wait a minute. Hang on. I haven't done those things or fine Maybe i've done those things but but it's not as much as some other people, you know, and I try to be a good person

What what's the reaction there? It's to justify yourself So you don't actually realize how much of a sinner you actually are

And so what I would ask you to do is Stop making excuses Be honest with yourself be honest before god and ask yourself

Or not even ask yourself remind yourself or think about the fact that maybe you aren't as good as you think you are

And reflect on that for a second And let it be a sobering thought Because the truth is that none of us are good

I'm, not pointing the finger at you just because it's easy for me. Believe me. I'm not i'm not excluding myself.

Believe me um Not at all I can even reflect on things i've done even today

Because we fail every day But the good news Is that in spite of the fact that we fail every day and we don't meet god's perfect standards and we do deserve hell

Let's be honest. We do deserve it. There's nothing good that we deserve God has been so gracious.

He's been so good so merciful That's he sent his only son jesus christ

Do you you know that story but do you think about the implications of it? Don't harden your heart to that message.

Don't harden your heart just because you've heard it a thousand times But really think about that.

What does it mean to be god in the flesh? And to humble yourself to the point of a servant of washing people's feet

Of being whipped until your back is opened Of being abandoned by your father by your friends by your family

Being nailed to a cross when you've done nothing wrong And having having the strength to say

Lord, forgive them for they do not know what they're doing It reminds me of romans 5 8 while we were yet sinners christ died for us

While we were still enemies christ died for us Would you die for a terrorist for somebody how about would you die for somebody that killed a family member of yours?

Would you die for them? That's what jesus did And if you repent of your sin that means just turn away from it agree with him say, you know what lord it is wrong

And i'm so sorry that I am that i've been walking in this way Then you know what you'll find mercy trust in jesus and he will save you

Amen Father we come to you in jesus name

Lord, i'm so thankful I'm, so thankful for what you've done for us on that cross

I'm, so thankful that there's new life in you Lord, I I put all my hope in you

Lord I pray that if folks turned on tonight to listen To maybe try to figure out how they can hear from you or discern what you're telling them

I pray that instead of looking for for signs. I pray that you reveal your your word to them by your spirit

That they be radically changed by who you are as revealed in your word That you be magnified and glorified in their lives as well as you be magnified and glorified in our lives god

God, let all our let all our lives and the testimonies of our days be that you're good That you're god and there is no other

We worship you we magnify you we praise you we exalt you because you're worthy of it

It's jesus name. I pray Amen. Amen. Amen boy gospel is sobering

But glorious and good Wow, thank you for watching the laborers podcast. We really appreciate it and we hope to see you real soon

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