SRR #62 | Interview Tom Juodaitis of The Trinity Foundation

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October 5, 2017

00:02: I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone.
00:13: When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the error and combating the error.
00:24: We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so the next few statements that I'm going to make,
00:30: I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.
00:37: We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style. I would first say that to characterize what we do as bashing is itself bashing.
00:57: It's not hate. It's history. It's not bashing. It's the Bible. Jesus said,
01:07: Woe to you when men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way, as opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness.
01:21: It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle. Okay. I want to welcome you back to Simple Riff from on the radio.
01:32: This is Tim Shaughnessy. And today we finally have Carlos Montijo, who is back with us.
01:41: He's been out for quite a while, actually. Carlos, when was the last episode that you did? Oh, man.
01:48: Was it the interview with Doug, with Doug Thelma? You know what? I think that might have been it.
01:56: Secretly, I've been thinking about taking you off the intro music. You know, it's funny because it's very fitting, because this episode is going to be another one of those definitional, super awesome, mega important episodes.
02:10: So, very excited about this one. Yes, it is. And I think because of the guests that we have on, we have with us today
02:18: Tom Giudaitis, or is it Giudaitis? It's pronounced Giudaitis.
02:24: Giudaitis from the Trinity Foundation, and he is the president of the Trinity Foundation. And I believe you're the son -in -law of the late
02:31: Dr. John Robbins. Is that correct as well? Yes, I am. I married his daughter, Laura. Okay.
02:37: So, I think it's a tremendous honor to have you on today, Tom. I want to welcome you to the show.
02:43: We have been promoting the Trinity Foundation for, really, the entirety of the time that we've been doing podcasts.
02:51: And, you know, as a matter of fact, one of the reasons that we even joined the Bible Thumping Wingnut Network was because, at the time, and I believe it's still this case, we were the only ones who are
03:01: Clarkians. And we wanted to bring attention to the
03:06: Trinity Foundation. We hear a lot of stuff about it that's negative, and we wanted to really come out and speak favorably of it because it is one of our favorite ministries.
03:16: And it's really helped Carlos and I tremendously just in our own personal walk with the Lord. And we also wanted to really give a platform to Gordon Clark and promote the writings and teachings of Gordon Clark.
03:30: And so, having you on, I think, is really going to be a bolster to that. And I'm excited to have you on.
03:38: And I wanted to, before we start, I just wanted to let our listeners know that the
03:43: Trinity Foundation, they have a book sale where a lot of their books are 50 % off. Now this sale has been going on from May 1st and it ends
03:52: October 31st, which I guess is fitting because that's the Reformation Day. But I wanted to just let our listeners know about that so that they could take advantage of that.
04:03: Tom, is it all of the books or is it just certain books on a list? The sale is books on a list, but the rest of the books that are not on the list are 25 % off.
04:14: And that also includes the DVDs that we sell from Adullam Films by Chris Pinto.
04:20: So the e -books are not on sale and the lectures that are on compact disc are not on sale because they're already marked down significantly anyway.
04:31: Well, and the e -books are pretty cheap anyway. So if people want to get the e -books,
04:37: I actually had somebody ask me which books they should start with and I recommended
04:42: God's Hammer and A Christian View of Men and Things. I don't know if you guys have a different pick, but that's what
04:48: I recommended and he actually bought the e -books. So there's that option as well. And then the
04:53: Trinity Foundation, they also have a bunch of articles that they publish and they also have a bunch of lectures.
05:00: So they have a lot of stuff to offer. A lot of stuff that is extremely relevant to the church today.
05:06: So we definitely recommend this to our listeners. And I want to give Carlos an opportunity to chime in here if he wants to say hello.
05:15: I know that he's had a long history with the Trinity Foundation. He's actually the one who introduced me to the
05:21: Trinity Foundation back when I was a Bantilian. So that's funny to me because now
05:28: I'm a Clarkian. So anyways, Carlos? Yeah, definitely. It is an absolute honor and privilege to have with us
05:36: Mr. Tom Giuditis from the Trinity Foundation. As Tim said, this is one of our favorite ministries.
05:43: We already had Brother Tim Kaufman on and he's been doing some great stuff on eschatology, the
05:49: Book of Revelation, church history, Roman Catholicism. But now we're very excited about having
05:56: Tom and Tim on. I think I might have told this story before when
06:03: I first found out about the Trinity Foundation. It was in 2009, back in 2009 when
06:08: I was still in college and I was looking for some scholarship money. And lo and behold,
06:13: I basically stumbled on the Christian Scholarship, what is it called? The Christian Essay Contest, Christian Worldview Essay Contest.
06:21: And it was practically by accident because I was just looking for money. And the prizes looked very appealing.
06:27: I think the first place was $3 ,000 and a ton of books from the
06:33: Trinity Foundation and so on and so forth. So that was what drew me in initially.
06:39: And then the contest that the book was based on was actually
06:44: Gordon Clark's God's Primer, which is a compilation of his essays on the inspiration, the authority, and basically a study of bibliology or the
06:55: Bible. One of my favorite books, I've read that book like five or six times, and it's just an outstanding read.
07:01: It's helped me so much. All of the books that I've read from the Trinity Foundation have been some of my favorite books.
07:07: And take advantage of the book sale. These are some of the best books that we've ever read.
07:14: You will learn an incredible amount. You really go deep.
07:19: You're going to go very deep with the kind of material that the Trinity Foundation offers. Because they talk about everything.
07:26: This is a foundation that focuses on everything from discernment to sound doctrine to Christian philosophy.
07:33: They leave no stone unturned. So they really provide you with a comprehensive theology and worldview that's thoroughly biblical on just about every subject you can imagine.
07:45: So welcome again to the show, Tom. So I think we should probably get started here.
07:51: What do you say, Tim? Yeah, that sounds great, Carlos. Let's go ahead and get started. I want to give Tom an opportunity to just introduce himself.
07:58: We know very little about him, and I'm sure that our listeners really don't know a whole lot about him. But, Tom, can you tell us a few things about yourself, who you are, and we'll start from that.
08:10: Okay. Well, thank you, first of all, for having me on your show. It's really a pleasure and delight to be on the show with you all.
08:18: I am Tom Judaitis. I am the president of the Trinity Foundation. I married
08:24: John's middle daughter, Laura, and he became my father -in -law. My background,
08:31: I became a Christian in high school my senior year, and God gave me a hunger and a desire to read his word.
08:39: And I became a Christian about the winter of my senior year in high school, and by the time I left college,
08:45: I had actually read through the whole Scripture. And I went to a
08:50: Baptist church. I had some friends that were Baptist, and so that's where I went. But I met a fellow at college who ended up becoming my best friend who started talking to me about predestination, election, the atonement.
09:04: And these things made sense because I had read through the Bible, and that is how I got into the
09:10: Reformed faith. And there was a small Orthodox Presbyterian church there.
09:16: I grew up in California, and I was at the University of California at Santa Cruz, and there was a small
09:22: OP church there. That's where we went. And I had about three years at the
09:29: University of California – I'm sorry, two years at the University of California at Santa Cruz. And becoming a
09:35: Christian, obviously that was not a place where I could grow educationally. And so I transferred to Covenant College and finished up my degree there in English and secondary education.
09:48: After graduation, I worked for a year doing odd jobs, I think delivering pizzas mainly.
09:55: And then I got a teaching position at a Christian school up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I taught
10:01: English to junior high kids for about ten years. And then during that time,
10:08: I also taught church history and apologetics to high school students. And I moved down –
10:15: I met Laura while I was up in Pittsburgh, and we moved down after the birth of our first child to be closer to her family, to John and Linda.
10:27: And I got a teaching position at the school down here in Johnson City, Tennessee, teaching
10:33: English again and also some logic. So my background is English, and becoming an
10:40: English teacher, editing was right up my alley. And those grammar mistakes kind of jump off the page at me.
10:49: I'm weird that way, I guess. And so I was teaching church history up in Pittsburgh, and after I met
10:56: Dr. Robbins, he let me take some books out of his library on church history to help me in my teaching of my classes.
11:06: And he was very generous toward me. I was in an OP church up in Pittsburgh, very strong,
11:11: Vantillian and other things of that sort. I had heard the stories of John Robbins and these things, and the stories and the man don't compare.
11:26: He was generous. Yes, he is very polemical in his writings, but bad doctrine, false doctrine needs to be fought.
11:38: It needs to be exposed. It needs to be counteracted. And that's why he was polemical, because doctrine matters.
11:47: And so he let me read some of the books he was thinking about publishing, and I spotted some errors and things like that.
11:57: So I think he saw some of the gifts that I could bring to the table. And so that's how
12:04: I got involved with the Trinity Foundation. And then I was made vice president under him, and when he passed, it was his desire that I become the president to continue the ministry of the
12:15: Trinity Foundation. So that's a little bit about me. Well, yeah,
12:22: I appreciate everything that you said. And some of the things that you touched on are some of the things that we want to,
12:30: I guess, try to cover in this podcast, because it seems that a lot of the negative stuff that we've heard about the
12:38: Trinity Foundation just seems to be from an echo chamber. We've heard the same phrases over and over and over, and most of the people,
12:48: I think, that do have something critical to say, they usually say, well,
12:54: I read this article, and I didn't appreciate it or something like that. But before we get into that,
13:00: I really want for you to just give our listeners an overall view of what is the purpose and goal of the
13:09: Trinity Foundation overall. I mean, it was started by John Robbins. Is that correct?
13:15: That is correct. He started in 1978 and began publishing articles even then.
13:22: The purpose, and I'm taking this really kind of summarizing some of the things said in the
13:27: Crisis of Our Time that we publish in the back of all of our books, and the purpose is really teaching the faithful all that scriptures contain, presenting the system of doctrine taught in the
13:44: Bible as clearly and as unambiguously as possible.
13:51: That also means counteracting the irrationalism of the age and exposing the errors of the teachers of the church.
14:01: In doing so, we're emphasizing the Bible as the sole source of truth.
14:08: It has a systematic monopoly on truth, John would say often. Also the primacy of the intellect, the supreme importance of correct doctrine, and the necessity of systematic and logical thinking.
14:22: God is a God of order, not of chaos, and so our thinking must be logical.
14:27: So that's the purpose, presenting the system of Christian teaching, the philosophy and doctrine, theology of the
14:35: Bible, as well as counteracting the errors of the age in which we live.
14:42: And I was actually going to ask you about that later because I've noticed that article, the Crisis of Our Time, is in the back of pretty much every book that I've bought from the
14:54: Trinity Foundation. But let me ask you this. So the Trinity Foundation was started by Dr.
15:01: Robbins, and one of the things that it aims to do is to preserve the legacy and the teachings of Dr.
15:08: Gordon Clark. So I wanted to ask you, what was the relationship between Dr.
15:13: Clark and Dr. Robbins? I believe he was a student of his, but it seems like they became much closer as friends, so much so that I know that in one of his books,
15:25: Dr. Clark asked Robbins to finish the book for him. So if you could fill us in on that.
15:32: Well, Dr. Robbins was not a student in the classroom setting of Dr. Clark's.
15:38: But during his Ph .D. at Johns Hopkins in political philosophy,
15:45: Dr. Robbins was searching for an epistemology that would be a sure foundation to his thesis.
15:53: And he tried Van Til and it led to confusion. He looked there and he looked elsewhere.
15:59: It wasn't until he came across Dr. Clark's works, especially I think the one that really hooked him, was
16:06: Religion, Reason, and Revelation. And just as an aside, that would be one that I would recommend people first reading
16:13: Clark. That's his, I think, his magnum opus on apologetics is
16:19: Religion, Reason, and Revelation. And so he struck up a correspondence with Dr.
16:25: Clark. And also, personally, he did have
16:31: Dr. Clark baptize one of his children while Dr.
16:37: Clark was still alive. And they did become, I guess, maybe mentor in terms of ideas, mentor and mentee.
16:47: But they were also equals. They were both Ph .D .s. And one of the reasons, primary reasons also for starting the
16:55: Trinity Foundation was to preserve and publish, keep in print, the works of Gordon Clark.
17:04: PNR had published some. Eerdmans and other publishing companies had published some things.
17:10: But I think by the time Dr. Robbins was around, they weren't so much interested in publishing
17:15: Clark very much anymore. And so Robbins saw the value of Clark's scripturalism and wanted to keep that in print.
17:24: It is an antidote to so much of the irrationalism of the age of which much in the
17:31: Christian church is not an antidote but continues some of the same errors in thinking.
17:37: And so Robbins wanted to keep Clark's works in print. And Clark was appreciative of that and even donated himself to the cause, and not only his writings but even financially.
17:55: And then the book you were referring to is The Incarnation where it was the last book that Clark was working on before he passed.
18:03: And before he passed, he wanted Robbins to complete it. And Robbins, I think, added a paragraph or two just in summary at the end in the book on The Incarnation.
18:15: So that's really the relationship there. Robbins was never a student, say, in the classroom of Clark.
18:22: But he saw in Clark one whose Christian philosophy, Christian theology gave a proper biblical intellectual defense of Christianity.
18:33: Let me ask you this. So I wanted to talk a little bit more about who Robbins was. And like I said before, we have heard a lot of criticism of Robbins.
18:43: And as you already mentioned, he was very polemical. So what should our listeners know about him?
18:50: And then talk a little bit about just the fact that he was polemical because we received some criticism about Dr.
18:59: Robbins and about the Trinity Foundation. And it came about because there was a person who sent an email to Tim Hurd thanking us for the episodes that we did with Tim Kaufman about Tim Keller.
19:12: And the first comment was basically saying that John Robbins were doing hit pieces on well -known
19:22: Christians. And what I find really interesting about that is to describe what
19:28: John Robbins was doing as a hit piece really I think is an uncharitable characteristic itself of what
19:37: John Robbins was trying to do. First of all, we have to recognize the intellect that was behind the articles that were being written.
19:44: It's not as if he was some obscure person in his mom's basement trying to make a name for himself.
19:51: Looking around the landscape of Christianity, trying to figure out who he could do a hit piece on.
19:58: And just to characterize what the Trinity Foundation does, to characterize what
20:04: John Robbins was doing as doing a hit piece on somebody as if he was out to get somebody
20:09: I think is itself very uncharitable. And we hear these things all the time.
20:16: But what came to light was the fact that John Robbins had criticized
20:23: John Piper. And the individual thought that he was very uncharitable, that he referred to him as Pied Piper.
20:31: And he didn't appreciate that or he had an issue with that. But I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell us what should our listeners know about John Robbins in light of these criticisms and in light of the fact that he criticized people like John Piper who
20:50: I personally think has a lot of problems. I haven't done a full assessment on Piper so I'm not really sure where to place
20:57: Piper. But I know that you and Carlos would probably have a little bit more to say about that.
21:02: But if you could just shed some light on that, that would be helpful. Thank you. John was a very personable person.
21:14: He gets this rap that he's some sort of angry man, and he's not.
21:20: He had a great sense of humor. But when truth is assailed and truth is attacked, he was valiant for the truth.
21:29: And just as the Bible, in the Bible, Paul named names of those who were teaching false doctrine, so John was not afraid to name names.
21:39: And this is important. We need to be aware. And someone of Piper's stature has a big platform.
21:45: And so if he's teaching air, he's spreading it far and wide. And so he needs to be taken to task and it needs to be pointed out.
21:54: And so John Robbins saw that he was teaching some air, and he dealt with not
22:00: Piper as a person. Now, there's no personal attacks in the article. It's dealing with his teachings, his doctrine.
22:07: And he is dealing with those doctrines, and they were false. They were false doctrine.
22:13: And they're not just false doctrines on something that's not that important.
22:18: But he was dealing with the doctrine of justification, the doctrine on which the church stands and falls.
22:24: And he was teaching air on the doctrine of justification. And he has since done so.
22:30: He's given N .T. Wright a pass. He's written a book on N .T. Wright's theology, and he kind of gave him a pass, it seemed to me.
22:37: And he's also had – he's given a platform to Doug Wilson of the
22:43: Federal Vision by having him speak at his national conference, his Desiring God conference.
22:49: He's also given a platform to Rick Warren of the Purpose -Driven Life and Purpose -Driven Church movement.
22:55: Warren is also someone who went to the same seminary he did, Fuller Seminary. And so Piper's got some problems on his doctrine of scripture.
23:04: He agrees with Daniel Fuller who didn't hold to full inspiration.
23:11: So there's some issues there. And so when someone has a big platform and they're teaching air, many can be led astray.
23:18: And so it's the biblical thing. It's the right thing to do is to expose the errors and those teaching the errors.
23:25: We're hopeful that the person that's teaching those would recant and repent. But for the sake of the people that are out there that are reading and learning from this person, they need to be exposed so that people take heed.
23:41: All of us ideally ought to be Bereans in comparing what someone is teaching with the scripture.
23:47: They need to do that with the Trinity Foundation. John Robbins and Gordon Clark are not infallible. I'm not infallible.
23:53: Only the Word of God is. Only God is. And so everybody needs to be a Berean when it comes to that.
24:00: Unfortunately, we live in a time of great man -pleasing, great hero worship. People follow after men just as they did in the
24:08: Corinthian church. I'm of Paul. I'm of Apollos. I'm of Bantul. I'm of Clark. I'm of Piper.
24:14: I'm of MacArthur. We need to follow them as they follow Christ. But we're the error.
24:19: We need to say, no, we need to follow Christ, not the error. I absolutely agree.
24:25: Carlos, did you have anything to add to that? Oh, yeah. So, you know, it's really interesting because one of the things that you mentioned earlier about the
24:38: Trinity Foundation heavily promoting an emphasis on a systematic grasp of the
24:44: Bible. And this is one of those things that literally rescued me from so many perilous movements that I literally would fall into just about every time
24:55: I came across something on the Internet. Because that's what happened to me when I first became a
25:01: Christian. I didn't have a church or a mentor to guide me. I was basically just raised on the
25:06: Internet. And the first thing I came across that really drew my attention was a fundamentalist
25:12: King James only website. But when I started reading Clark and the Trinity Foundation, it literally it's very true what you were saying.
25:21: You know, the truth literally sets you free. Now, because I've benefited so much and learned so much from the
25:28: Trinity Foundation, I'm no longer tossed to and fro. Like the Bible says, you know, the being tossed around by false every wind of false teaching.
25:36: It grounds you so solidly that now I just I know you can smell it now.
25:42: You can smell it from a mile away when somebody is straying from the biblical teaching or from, you know, it equips you so thoroughly and so well that you can see it coming from a mile away.
25:52: And it's so empowering. And it is so it just gives you a piece to know that the truth, you have the truth because it's in the
26:00: Bible and you understand it because it's because you have a consistent understanding of the Bible. And it enables you to it's it literally sets you free.
26:09: You know, I believe Jesus was talking about that very thing. That's exactly what it sets you free from the lies and deception, even from from from people who claim to be
26:19: Christian or who, you know, who claim to be teachers of the church, you know,
26:25: Christian teachers or whatever. So one thing I did also want to say is that I highly recommend for people to read the material from the
26:35: Trinity Foundation. Their books you you do have to buy, of course, they're very affordable, but a lot of the material is actually free on the website.
26:43: You know, they have MP3 lectures that you can download and listen to online, which we've also been putting up on our podcast when we, you know, we put on some of the lectures every now and then.
26:54: Extremely, extremely edifying material. They cover everything again from political politics to to science, to to theology, to logic, everything.
27:03: And also there's an article from the Trinity Review, which I guess is like the it's like a journal.
27:10: Is it what would you it's like a periodical, right? Yeah, I call it a monthly newsletter. Yeah. Yeah.
27:15: So right. And you I guess you publish an article with every edition or newsletter.
27:21: And so there's a 2002 article called the Pied Piper. And that's the article that Robbins wrote regarding John Piper, criticizing several points of his theology that were extremely problematic, to say the least.
27:37: I mean, they were I mean, they were pretty like you said he did. He wasn't focusing on secondary issues and on personal attacks.
27:43: And so one of the things that I've noticed that when people make those criticisms against Robbins, it tends to stem from,
27:51: I think, two things primarily, one of them being ignorance. That is ignorance of the
27:57: Bible and ignorance of these men and what these men actually teach, who may think are sound or they they assume that they're
28:06: OK because so many people like them or whatever the case may be. So like you said, again, like the
28:14: Bible says very clearly, we all need to be Bereans and we all need to be examine each other, examine each other's teaching.
28:20: That includes Gordon Clark. That includes Robbins. That includes anybody and everybody. And that includes John Piper as well.
28:26: And so when people say those statements that, oh, well, he's bashing Piper, it's like, well, first of all, you probably haven't read what he said.
28:33: And the other thing is that almost to me, because I was raised a Roman Catholic, I was brought up Roman Catholic.
28:40: And to me, that sounds just like something the pope would say.
28:45: It's like you're just going to you're just going to offhandedly dismiss Robbins in that arbitrary, just just it's just a very arbitrary and offhanded way of dismissing this man and the entire ministry and work that he's that he's contributed to the church in such an offhanded way.
29:03: It's just it's incredibly immature and shallow when people do that. And I find that it's very frustrating because you see a lot of that on Facebook and, you know, everybody thinks they have an opinion and that it matters and that it's valid on Facebook.
29:15: It's just it's very it can get very annoying. And that tends to be a popular opinion where people think that you're not supposed to call people out in the way that Robbins did.
29:24: When, in fact, Robbins was actually extremely tame compared to Paul when he says that the
29:30: Judaizers should castrate themselves. You know, it's like what you don't are you even reading the same
29:35: Bible that that that you claim to be reading? You know, it's like the Bible is telling you things that are so strong.
29:41: It's like it would make anybody wince, especially people with those sentiments. Like it doesn't seem like they have an accurate understanding of the
29:47: Bible. I mean, you can't even read Paul's letters without without him calling names. I mean, he does it repeatedly in almost all of his letters, you know, and for wishing.
29:57: I mean, he even tells them at one point that he wishes their blood be on there, that their blood is on their own heads now.
30:03: And I mean, just things it goes on and on. Right. So, I mean, Robbins was a tremendous blessing and gift to the church.
30:10: And, you know, there's a lot of problems that I've read some of Piper's stuff.
30:16: And, you know, one of the issues, like you said, Tom, you mentioned that he's been giving people platforms who are very who are basically false teachers and people who aren't or extremely dangerous in their in their teaching, like Rick Warren, you know, and and who was the other one,
30:37: Rick Warren and Doug Wilson. Doug Wilson, who supposedly recanted his views.
30:43: But it sounds like it's just basically playing word games from what I've seen. And I know Sean Garrity, who is another fellow published.
30:51: You've published some of his articles and books on the Trinity Foundation. He's he's kind of called him out on that as well.
30:57: And it's not just them. He also heavily promotes Tim Keller and invites him to his conferences, who we've called out on the show and criticized extensively, documented all of the false teachings that he's promoted.
31:11: And so he promotes C .S. Lewis as well, who is, I mean, and people make these assumptions about these people thinking that they're sound or because they're so popular.
31:22: And it's like, no, I mean, a lot of people don't even know that C .S. Lewis denied the inspiration of books of the
31:28: Bible, like the Psalms, certain psalms and stuff. I mean, it's just and he confesses sins to a priest.
31:33: And I believe he also believed in purgatory. Yeah, he was he was an Anglo Catholic.
31:39: Right. Exactly. So, you know, and that's why I'm so grateful for for the
31:45: Trinity Foundation and the work that you all do, because you're one of the very few ministries that sound the trumpet when nobody else does and when nobody else wants to.
31:56: And you don't have a problem with it because the truth is what's at stake. And so, you know, let me jump in there,
32:03: Carlos, because that what Carlos is saying is exactly right, because we've shared our testimony before on the podcast.
32:10: But when we were going through the the challenge of trying to sift through all of Tim Keller's teachings and trying to figure out,
32:20: OK, is he Orthodox? Is he is are we the only ones seeing this problem for a while?
32:27: That's exactly how it felt. We felt as if like we're the only ones seeing this problem. And what we discovered was that the
32:34: Trinity Foundation was on top of it. You know, Tim Kaufman had already published several articles outlining some of the problems with Tim Keller.
32:43: And so we've seen this over and over because it's you know, it's very difficult to go through everything that's out there and try to figure out what sound what's
32:55: Orthodox, what's OK. And and so it's a tremendous blessing to have a ministry like the
33:01: Trinity Foundation where you have scholarly work and they can go through and look at.
33:08: OK, so there are some issues with Piper. There are some issues with Tim Keller. I just wanted to bring out here, pointing out doctrinal errors is not a hit piece.
33:35: And that's what that's what we try to do. And that's what John did is is we quote these folks with their own words and we don't take them out of context.
33:44: We quote their own words and and compare them to scripture and where they're in error.
33:49: We point that out. And also there are other ministries out there doing this.
33:56: I have a book that I just got from E .S. Williams, Christian Hedonism, a biblical examination of John Piper's teaching.
34:04: E .S. Williams is a fellow over in the UK who is I think he's a member, maybe a deacon of the
34:11: Metropolitan Tabernacle Spurgeon's Church, where Dr. Peter Masters is the pastor. He's written a couple of books exposing
34:18: Tim Keller as well. So there are other voices out there, but they're not the the majority voices.
34:26: They're not the loud voices, but there are other voices out there and they're seeing these things as well.
34:32: I think I think it was Kent Silva of Uprising Ministries. I think he's passed, but he was bringing some attention to the problems with John Piper's teaching as well.
34:44: So there's others out there. But I think what John did in his Pied Piper was he got to the heart of the false doctrine on justification.
34:54: You know, other people point out some other things that are errors that are that are wrong. You know, with Piper, you know, maybe, you know, his his charismaticism, his, you know, contemporary worship are the things that, you know, are maybe wrong, certainly.
35:11: And but I don't think they're the gospel. And this was the gospel issue on justification.
35:17: How can a man become right before God? How can he be declared righteous?
35:22: And I think John was John Piper was sounding an uncertain sound there, an error with his doctrine of future justification.
35:31: And it's very similar to Gaff, Richard Gaffin, Norman Shepard, John Connard and their teachings on, you know, on the
35:41: Day of Judgment, we're going to be justified by our works. And it's a very dangerous teaching.
35:46: And that's why John was animated. That's why he called him out, called John Piper out, called anybody else who teaches these things.
35:55: We called out Connard and Shepard and and Gaffin on on these teachings that are false teachings.
36:03: And it's a false teaching. I think I think it's the confession calls it a damnable heresy because it concerns the salvation.
36:10: You know, Paul, the apostle, had strong words in in in First Corinthians 15 for those who denied the resurrection.
36:20: But his anathema or the anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone.
36:27: That's where the anathema comes in. That is the doctrine on what's the church stands or falls. And so when that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield exposing the air and combating the air.
36:39: And there's a great quote by Luther, you know, if we're faithful in everything except where the actual battle is, then then we're not faithful.
36:52: You know, if we're faithful on all the all field except where the enemy is, then we're not faithful because we've not we've not engaged the enemy.
37:00: That's a paraphrase of a paraphrase, maybe. But the idea is there. But so there are thankfully there are other people that are waking up.
37:10: They're comparing their Bibles to what these men are teaching and they're coming up wanting. But as I said, we live in an age of anti intellectualism, of irrationalism, of for lack of a better word, lazy
37:25: Christianity or churchy even. And people just swallow what they're being taught without comparing it to the scripture.
37:33: Yeah. You know, Tom, so I am actually aware of E .S.
37:39: Williams and that is a book that I want to get. I quoted E .S. Williams in my criticism of Tim Keller, the article that I wrote.
37:48: But I wanted to ask you, did you by any chance see this article written by John Piper published on September 25th, 2017, titled
37:57: Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? No, I have not seen that yet. I'll have to look that up.
38:03: I'm going to send that to you because, you know, I think I think we should probably just do an episode on John Piper and what his errors are.
38:11: I mean, you can you can. When did he publish that? On September 25th.
38:16: It's the one that I sent you. It was this year. Yeah. Yeah, this year. You know, yeah, I read that, too, and I'm glad you brought it up because I wanted to point out a couple of things that Brother Tom had mentioned about, you know,
38:29: I'm really glad that you pointed out that Robbins, from what I remember, Robbins didn't even focus on Piper's other secondary scruples about, you know, his his his views about the gifts of the
38:43: Spirit and of his view of church of certain things about certain ways of doing church.
38:50: He didn't even focus on that. Like you said, he focused on the primary gospel core gospel issues and exposed his teachings for for what they were.
39:00: They were false. They're false. They were they're contrary to the biblical teaching. And so I'm very glad you brought that up.
39:06: And another thing was I can already see people saying, you know, well, oh, well, we're just a bunch of hypocrites because aren't we all of Clark?
39:13: Aren't we claiming to be of Clark? And I want to just make a distinction that we we've made before. Tim and I have made before in an article that we published called
39:21: The Marks of a True Clarkian, because the issue here is not we're not talking about personalities.
39:27: We're talking about the doctrine that these these people exemplify or represent.
39:34: That's, you know, same thing with Calvinism, Clarkianism. All we're referring to is the body of work that these men contributed and and blessed the church with.
39:45: It's not about following personalities. And so when we say that we're
39:51: Clarkian, we're simply saying that we subscribe to or that we hold highly his work.
39:58: And we've been we've benefited by it and we appreciate it very much because we've learned much from them.
40:04: And so and Clark, you know, Clark himself is if you read Clark, you will see that this man was extremely concerned about making sure that he was biblical and that he was grounded in the in the purest stream of the church, which which he would say was the reformed tradition.
40:22: And so Clark was squarely in that camp. And so when and he all of his his life and his teaching was dedicated to promoting that truth and to spreading that knowledge and and even expanding that knowledge to other areas of philosophy, of politics, of ethics, of all kinds of different areas that didn't haven't gotten that much attention.
40:50: And so that's another one of those reasons I'm extremely grateful for. You know, the Trinity Foundation, because, again, you know, there's so much ignorance out there about about so many of these things.
41:03: And, you know, a lot of these are just ignorant assertions that people will make. And, you know, I want to quote a few verses just to show this whole issue of guilt by association and why we're pointing out that Piper, not only affirms these men like Rick Warren and Tim Keller and C .S.
41:20: Lewis and, you know, even Mark Driscoll, you know, inviting him to his conferences and stuff like that.
41:26: But the reason why we're pointing it out is because it is biblical to do so, because you can be guilty by association.
41:33: The Bible is explicit about that in the second epistle of John, for example, in verse in verse nine says,
41:42: Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God. The one who abides in the teaching, he has both the father and the son.
41:49: If anyone comes to you and does not bring his this teaching, do not receiving him, receive him into your house and do not give him a greeting.
41:56: For the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. So giving somebody who is promoting false teaching and embracing it and not recanting it or correcting it, giving them a platform to spread their error.
42:11: And they also become not only do they promote their error, but they become enablers to people who would otherwise not be exposed to men like that.
42:19: Because you have Piper and people think highly of him. And so now he's basically validating all of this heresy and false teaching from these other men.
42:28: And so it's extremely dangerous stuff. And that's why it's important to call this stuff out and to and to point the finger on it, because that's exactly what the
42:36: Bible tells us to do. Yes. Just wanted to add. Also, we talked about being a
42:43: Berean and no teacher except Jesus Christ. The teacher is above being compared to Scripture.
42:51: And even Jesus said, test my words and read the Old Testament. They testify of me. But Paul, you know,
42:57: Paul, the apostle was not above being his were having his words compared to Scripture.
43:02: And so, you know, every every teacher should welcome this, should welcome being, you know, having their teachings compared to Scripture where they fall short.
43:14: They they need we all need to repent where we where we are in error, where we contradict the
43:19: Scripture. And so, yeah, that's this is something that's not a hit piece. It's holding teachers to a higher standard, which the
43:27: Scripture says teachers will be held to a higher standard. Right. Well, you know,
43:32: Tom, let me ask you this, because, you know, like I said before, to characterize this as a hit piece is itself uncharitable.
43:41: And then the person went on to say that Robbins was very uncharitable. So in a situation like this, how would you respond to somebody, somebody reading the article on Piper where Piper just I mean,
43:56: I can't figure out where Piper's at. If if you want to speak on that, that's fine.
44:02: But this person, the thing that comes up is Robbins called Piper a heretic and he's being very uncharitable.
44:08: What would you say to that? If he's teaching heresy, what is he? He's a heretic and he's teaching heresy on the gospel, the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
44:20: That's the gospel. It's uncharitable to not call out the truth and expose the air.
44:29: It's uncharitable to those who would be reading and listening to a teacher to not be exposed, to not expose the air.
44:37: That's uncharitable. John used to say as an analogy here, strict nine doesn't lose anything by being mixed with with orange juice.
44:48: It gains a lot. So someone who can maybe say some true things and maybe has some good theology here and there, but they teach something that's heresy.
45:01: It's a false teaching, especially concerning the gospel. That makes them even more dangerous because people's guard can be down.
45:10: So the uncharitableness is not exposing it so that people aren't made aware.
45:16: That's the uncharitable. I mean, if you just look through the letters of Paul and even Christ in the
45:22: New Testament, exposing the Pharisees, the scribes, the false teachers and also the hypocrites,
45:31: Paul does the same and he names them and he does so for the benefit of the believers so that they know not to follow after those, mark those who teach differently.
45:44: The scripture is very clear on that, that that's what to do. Well, and I think one of the difficult things that I've seen is that when you point out that somebody's written something or published something that really strays from the gospel or strays from an essential truth of the faith, what people automatically do is they go and they try to dig up other things that the person has said where they've gotten it right.
46:11: And so when even you just saying that Piper's view, what he said about the doctrine of justification is an error, what he said is wrong, what he's written down is wrong.
46:26: What will happen is that people will go and dig up a sermon where Piper lays out the doctrine of justification by faith alone accurately.
46:35: And one of the things that I've said is, well, then he's just being double minded. And if he really believes it when he says it accurately, then he needs to repent of when he makes a mistake in the same way that Paul confronted
46:50: Peter to his face when he forfeited the gospel and Peter repented.
46:56: You can't just stay there. And especially when you publish a book,
47:03: I mean, it goes through an editing process that is very rigorous and it's not just a slip of the tongue.
47:11: And so can you, I don't know if you're able to right now, and if you're not, then that's fine.
47:20: We can just move on. But would you be able to outline maybe a little bit how
47:26: Piper's fumbling the doctrine of justification by faith alone? It seems to me, like Gaffin and these others, he smuggles works into the definition of faith.
47:41: And it's this idea that our justification before, and I don't even like that term, when we're before the judgment throne, judgment seat of Christ, we're judged.
47:55: And these folks put that we're judged, our justification is based upon our works.
48:02: No, justification was once for all, is a once for all declaration. And it's not based on our works.
48:09: It's based on the work of Christ and it's received by faith alone. Now, there's no doubt that a
48:16: Christian will exhibit, will produce good works. That's Ephesians 2 .10. We are created in Christ Jesus beforehand to do good works, which he prepared in advance that we should walk in them.
48:31: And so a Christian ought to exhibit good works, but the good works are not a basis for any merit in this life, any merit for heaven.
48:43: They're not even a basis, I would say, for sanctification. They're a fruit of justification and then they're a fruit of sanctification.
48:50: A Christian should exhibit them because he's a blood -bought child of God now.
48:57: And so he bears the image of the second Adam. And so he lives out of that.
49:05: And I think Piper's book, I think it was The Future of Justification or Future Justification.
49:11: Yeah, it's called Future Grace. Future Grace. And he's teaching this era, and I think that it's so dangerous.
49:21: Works are a fruit of justification and they are a result of justification.
49:26: And people put some sort of causal thing in terms of, you know, we're not justified if we don't have good works.
49:34: You know, something where there's a cause and effect. They're on dangerous ground. And so this, unfortunately, this teaching is spreading.
49:44: It's not just a problem in Presbyterian circles with, you know, Gaffin and Shepherd and Kinnaird and Doug Wilson and the
49:53: Federal Vision folks. It's a problem even in the Baptist circles and the Reformed Baptist circles, unfortunately.
49:59: And there's a lot of cross, I don't want to say crossbreeding, but, you know, crossover. You'll have these men at these different conferences together for the gospel, the
50:08: Gospel Coalition, where you have some, you know, PCA folks as well as, you know,
50:14: Reformed Baptist or, you know, Southern Baptists that are Reformed. And there's a lot of this going on.
50:22: And as I said, we live in an age of really hero worship. I follow this guy.
50:28: He's my hero. You know, I want someone to sign my Bible or something like that.
50:34: It's a fear of man. It's a worship of man. I think it's, you know,
50:41: I think it's very dangerous. And we need to, you know, we need to hold each other accountable to the teachings of Scripture.
50:49: And wherever we err, we need to have the humility to repent, recant the error, and to teach the truth.
50:58: And unfortunately, that's not a lot of that's going on. Nobody is above reproach, right?
51:06: That's what we've been saying, and that's why it's important to scrutinize and examine these men. And it's like the book of, what is it,
51:13: Hebrews 13 says to exercise your powers of discernment by discerning good and evil by constant practice.
51:21: I mean, it's a constant thing. It's not something that you should ever turn off because when you do, you will likely – you're more likely to fall into error and be deceived.
51:31: And so I really appreciate you pointing those things out because, you know, people really need to read the article, especially if you like Piper or if you have scruples.
51:40: If you have a problem with Robbins for calling Piper out, you should really read the article because it's not just that that he's talking about.
51:49: Robbins is – his accusation against Piper, one of the accusations is that he teaches neolegalism, which is basically the belief that you're saved in some sense by your evangelical obedience or by your fruit or by your works.
52:04: Let me go ahead and read two parts from the article.
52:11: And Tom, you've not read this article yet, but it basically – he says exactly what you said about final judgment.
52:19: And this article, I've heard the phrases final justification used, and I think
52:25: I've heard that used by Doug Wilson. And David Platt. Yeah. David Platt too.
52:31: Well, no. David Platt, I think just – he wasn't actually teaching the same thing.
52:39: He was saying that there was a final justification that – the problem with that obviously is that – and this is what
52:46: Piper's book, Future Grace, the first edition at least, another thing Robbins calls out is that the grace that God gives us is fundamentally grounded in the past, in the work that Christ accomplished on the cross.
52:58: That finalizes our justification, and that justification is accomplished at the cross, and it's applied to us when we repent and believe.
53:07: So the problem with what Piper was saying is that he was trying to emphasize some kind of future grace that somehow was in the future.
53:15: And so that's how he kind of starts to smuggle in this concept of evangelical obedience, tying it to our justification or our salvation.
53:23: Right. Well, let me read this. So in the article he says, Paul calls this effect or fruit or evidence of faith the work of faith, 1
53:34: Thessalonians 1 .3, 2 Thessalonians 1 .11, and the, quote, obedience of faith,
53:40: Romans 1 .5 and Romans 16 .26. And then he says, these works of faith and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the
53:49: Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for final salvation.
53:55: No holiness, no heaven. So we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone in the same way we are justified by faith alone.
54:06: And when I read that, that troubled me greatly. And then he says, let me see if, that might have just been that one part, but let me see if I can dig up the other one real fast.
54:23: I have it here. Is it the one about final salvation? I just read that. Okay. I have it right here.
54:30: Let me go ahead and paste. Okay. Essential to the Christian life and necessary for final salvation.
54:37: Okay, so he uses the term final salvation twice. And Carlos, this might be what you were referring to.
54:44: Essential to the Christian life and necessary for final salvation is the killing of sin, Romans 8 .13,
54:50: and the pursuit of holiness, Hebrews 12 .14, mortification of sin, sanctification and holiness.
54:57: But what makes that possible and pleasing to God? So he says, you know, essential to final salvation.
55:04: And so it sounds to me like that's exactly what you're talking about, Tom. And when
55:10: I read that, I found that to be very troubling because I do see that as a forfeiture of the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
55:21: Yeah, it's – does Christ save us or do we save ourselves or is there cooperation?
55:27: I mean that's what it comes down to. You know, he saves us completely and we show forth the fruits of that, no doubt about it.
55:36: And as I mentioned with Ephesians, you know, we quote Ephesians 2, 8 and 9 but often forget verse 10.
55:43: There are good works that we are to walk in, but there are works that he prepared in advance that we should walk in them. We show forth who we are, but that doesn't get us heaven.
55:53: That's the fruit of, you know, the root of the new life in us.
55:59: And it's an effect. It's not a cause. And people get those things mixed up.
56:07: And it's the old Roman Catholic mixing of justification and sanctification.
56:14: And, you know, you're not justified until you're sanctified and the confusing of those two.
56:20: And it leaves a person not only without assurance, but it also – it's a false doctrine.
56:27: It's a – as the, you know, people have said, it's a soul -damning heresy. Right, yeah.
56:33: And, you know, okay, so we don't have a lot of time left. I wanted to ask you a few more questions.
56:39: Sure. I want to bring this to the attention of our listeners. There is a
56:46: Trinity Foundation conference that you are going to be holding this year. And would you be able to tell us a little bit about that?
56:55: Yeah, it's titled The Reformation at 500, subtitled Is It Over or Is It Needed Now More Than Ever?
57:02: It's being held October 27th, a Friday evening, and October 28th, a Saturday morning and afternoon in Johnson City.
57:11: Here at the Holiday Inn in Johnson City. The speakers are
57:16: Dr. Paul Elliott of Teaching the Word Ministries. He's written the book on the
57:21: OPC. There's also Dr. Mark Evans. He's the pastor of Hope Presbyterian Church and the moderator of the
57:30: Bible Presbyterian Church, Faith Presbytery. Myself will be speaking as well.
57:36: And then Chris Pinto of Dulum Films will be giving a presentation as well.
57:43: Both Dr. Evans and Dr. Elliott will give two presentations. Myself and Mr. Pinto will be giving one presentation.
57:51: And you can call the Trinity Foundation at 423 -743 -0199 for more information or to register over the phone.
58:01: You can also go online to our website, trinityfoundation .org.
58:07: And there's a link you can click on on the left -hand bar on the homepage for conference.
58:13: It will take you to the information there for the registration form.
58:21: And we're also going to attach the links to the show notes so people can access it easily from there.
58:29: This definitely is a conference that I want to be at. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to make it.
58:38: But you will be, after the conference, posting the lectures on the
58:46: Trinity Foundation. Is that correct? Yes, we're planning on doing that. Okay, so real quick, the conference is about the 500 -year anniversary and the
59:01: Reformation. Where do you see the church with respect to the Reformation today?
59:07: I see us quickly approaching the pre -Reformation darkness. We have the
59:15: Word of God. We have lots of mistranslations of the Word of God out there as well.
59:21: But it seems that the devil's tactic in the Dark Ages was to withhold the
59:28: Word of God from the people. And now maybe it's to confuse with various mistranslations and things like that that are going on.
59:36: But then there's also, you know, how many Americans have how many Bibles in their houses, but how often do they read it?
59:42: So there's great ignorance going around. There's lots of false teaching. There's false teaching on various fronts, not just the doctrine of justification, even the doctrine of God and the doctrine of the
59:54: Scripture. And so I think we're quickly approaching the darkness, it seems to me.
01:00:02: Now, thankfully, there's 7 ,000 that haven't bowed the knee to Baal.
01:00:08: God has His elect, and there are people, and we're thankful for the light that's still there.
01:00:14: But I think the remnant is getting smaller, and we need to be holding to the truth more.
01:00:20: And you look at the church and compare it to the world, and unfortunately, there's not much difference today.
01:00:26: And it's because the salt has lost its saltiness. And because of that,
01:00:32: I think it's now needed more than ever. In one sense, maybe it's over, but it's now needed more than ever.
01:00:39: You see groups that are joining with Rome in celebration of the Protestant Reformation.
01:00:47: You know, Luther is rolling over in his grave, I think. So, yeah, it's needed more than ever.
01:00:55: We need a wake -up call. We need to get back to the sources, and we need to be honest with ourselves.
01:01:01: We need to repent. It's not the world that needs to repent, it's the church.
01:01:08: You know, judgment starts at the house of God, and we need to get our own house in order.
01:01:14: We need to seek the Lord, repenting of our own sins and our own errors, and conforming them to the
01:01:21: Scripture. And that's what we need. We need an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, as He did with Luther and Calvin and Utzer and Zwingli and the
01:01:31: Reformers of that generation. We need to get back to the Word of God and see
01:01:37: Him do a work in our own time. Amen.
01:01:43: I think that's a really good place to wrap it up. I want to point out just real quickly also that I was looking at the rates for the conference, and it's like one of the cheapest conferences that I've seen.
01:01:55: You're getting a great deal, so people should really take advantage if they can, because it's like, what, a two or three -day conference?
01:02:04: It's two days. It's two days. And yeah, and so I believe that you provide meals and lodging, right?
01:02:11: Not lodging. We provide the meals and the venue. Lodging is not included.
01:02:18: Okay. And it's pretty cheap. It's like only, what is it? It's $55 per person and $100 per couple.
01:02:26: There you go. So a family of four also, if they want to bring their older kids or whatever, it would be $200.
01:02:33: Awesome. Yeah, you're getting a really good deal. Yeah. Well, I hope you keep doing them.
01:02:39: I'm really disappointed that I'm going to miss this one. I have a four -year -old, a three -year -old, and a one -year -old, and they cannot sit through a two -day conference, and we can't leave them.
01:02:50: I understand. Yeah, living here in El Paso, we can't leave our one -year -old alone that long.
01:02:57: But I would love – I think that would be so awesome to take my kids when they're older to a
01:03:05: Trinity Foundation conference. And, man, that would be such an honor to be able to participate in that.
01:03:14: But definitely, I want to recommend this to our listeners. If you're able to go, this is a conference that I think is worth checking out.
01:03:25: And I also want to, again, recommend the Trinity Foundation just as a resource to our listeners.
01:03:33: Yeah, it's great stuff. I mean, there's so much you can learn from the Trinity Foundation. And I want to point out just one last thing here because you have some very exciting recent developments.
01:03:43: I know you've just signed some book deals, I think, with Doug Dalma. You published his biography of Gordon Clark and, even more recently, his
01:03:53: Selected Letters of Clark. So if you could talk about that for a little bit. I actually didn't publish his biography.
01:03:59: That was published through his doc. That's right. We carry it, but we didn't publish it. We did publish the
01:04:05: Selected Letters of Gordon H. Clark. Yeah, that's one of the last ones, the newest thing we've put out.
01:04:12: Lord willing, I'm trying to work on putting Dr. Robbins' lectures, Thinking Biblically, into a book.
01:04:20: That'll be kind of like not only a book, but with study notes and things like that, study questions.
01:04:26: That'll be kind of a workbook on thinking biblically. It's so needed today.
01:04:32: And so, Lord willing, in the next couple of years, that'll be something we'll bring out. And as we're able, as the
01:04:41: Lord blesses, and as new material comes out, we'll be doing that as well.
01:04:50: It's not just exposing the error, but also standing for the truth. Both things are needed.
01:04:56: And you can't just – we're not just negative. Just looking at our archived articles, you can see that.
01:05:04: We've published a lot of things that are helpful. We're building up. But when error is out there, it needs to be exposed, especially error concerning the gospel.
01:05:16: I appreciate you guys having me on. It's been a pleasure. Well, the pleasure is ours.
01:05:23: Tom, would you be willing to participate more in the future? Lord willing, yes.
01:05:28: After the conference, definitely. Before the conference, I'm pretty busy. But after the conference,
01:05:35: I'd like to maybe once or twice a month, if I'm able, I'd like to be able to participate with you all.
01:05:41: That would be fantastic. And we will basically – Stay tuned. Yeah, whatever it is that you want to talk about, whatever it is that you're seeing out there that needs to be confronted, we would love to share our platform with you.
01:05:54: Hey, that's why we're here. So, Tom, I just want to say thank you again for coming on. Carlos, thanks for helping me out today.
01:06:02: And we will check everybody next week, Lord willing. Have a blessed week. This podcast is a member of the
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