October 10, 2016 Show Including Discussions With Dr. E. Calvin Beisner and Ken Jones

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of October 2016.

I'm delighted that our Lord in his mercy spared our guests today from any Serious damage or harm from the hurricane that just passed through, Florida. I'm speaking of dr. E Calvin Beisner, and I'm delighted that he is our first guest today on iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Beisner is founder and national spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the stewardship of creation and. Following dr. Bar Beisner in our second hour We have the pastor of New Life Community Church in Indianapolis, Indiana that is pastor Andrew Hunter and we are going to be promoting the 2016 Midwest annual Reformation Conference featuring Ken Jones Victor Scholar and Jarvis Williams, but let me on let me welcome you back.

It's my honor to have you back on the program. Dr. E Calvin Beisner.

Thank you very much. Chris. Good to be back with you kind of huffing and puffing. I just finished taking down all the hurt. A couple of good friends and so tell us about.

The experience with that hurricane. I believe that you evacuated the area for a bit.

No, we didn't need to evacuate. Okay was built. Our house was built after her about eight hours or so to be in an area that could sustain high damage.

Well, at least to give you peace of mind while you were Waiting.

Well, well praise God and.

We Also just ask of you to pray our listeners to pray for those who actually did suffer damage and loss during this hurricane and Perhaps even loss of life. Do you know of a total of how many lives may have been lost during this hurricane?

The last time I might have liked. Well, we.

Again, thank God for his mercy upon you and the surrounding area where you live in, Florida. And we we do this all the time because We never know who may be listening for the first time to iron sharpens iron When any particular guest is on.

So if you could let our listeners know about the Cornwall Alliance for the stewardship of creation.

Of about 60 a little over sticking up on the language of genital and multiply the air and everything that moves up. Find out about. That is of Genesis 1 and the beauty and the safety. The second major is economic development for the very poor think primary or parts of Asia and Latin America.

Two things on the one hand. Without either one of those No society has ever grown out of poverty. So we want to make sure that People understand the need for those and that we understand what it is that of the gospel of Jesus.

And whose science and economics are typically very and whose policies therefore typically are not very helpful to the natural world. But are very harmful to the poor by depriving them of those very things that are made.

Cornwall Alliance.

Great. Well, I'm gonna give our listeners our email address if you have any question for dr. Bison or either about environmental issues It could be also Theological issues. Dr. Beisner is a theologically reformed scholar a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Perhaps some of our listeners may even remember him being involved in a debate on the John Ankerberg show many years ago I believe that was with oneness Pentecostals if I'm not mistaken and and If you would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Ch r .i .s. They are n z n at gmail .com. One question I have about the environmental issue is Unless I'm missing something. I was wondering what your opinion is on this. It seems to me that Those in the political arena who profess to be conservative which would obviously mainly be coming from the Republican Party Who have any kind of Opposition to what appears to be in a grossly exaggerated claim of climate Hazards that are have developed globally due to Global warming and so on and you know ranging from exaggerations to outright outright fraudulent claims Or you even have some of those professing to be conservative acquiescing and saying that they agree with the the climate change Alarmists, but those that would be in opposition to this seem to be being Very impotent very inadequate Or very weak in their opposition to this mainly there on seemed seemingly on the defense and act Very apologetically about the issue.

They are very often viewed as nuts as people who are have totally Are devoid of any modern scientific? Knowledge about this area and where they should be really more aggressively on the attack if you will targeting targeting the very issues that you just mentioned regarding the poor Being robbed of livelihoods and so on.

It seems that the the Those that are in the conservative side of the aisle Just sit there waiting to be attacked by those on the left because of their disagreement or non-belief in the climate change.

Hysteria, it's probably real that it's very slight under one degree Celsius as much warming as that a degree of rate. Significantly, so I really think that that we're winning long haul. The problem is that it takes a long time Chris for this kind of information.

High level and.

We do have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Who says or asks I should say are there any politicians that you can name who seem to be? Very strong in championing the movement against global warming hysteria that actually appears to be making Positive headway in this arena in politics.

Yes, I understand. Yes, well it was quite interesting to hear that Mike Pence had done something that I was totally unaware of As governor of Indiana where evangelicals had supported him in large part due to a Bill that he was involved in to protect the freedom of speech of Christians and then it was reversed as a Gay rights bill of some kind.

I don't know if you know what I'm familiar if I'm speaking about. If you're familiar with what? I'm speaking about.

Just okay.

Yeah, well, it's unfortunate it's that most of the time politicians seem to be Folks that you really can't you can't bet the farm on if you Know the way that they tell us one thing when they are behind closed doors in front of evangelicals and other conservatives.

When trying to gain popularity amongst us and secure our votes and then when they actually are doing The the business of politicking they they often, you know stab us in the back. Yes, amen. One of the other things that I wanted to talk to you that is on a completely different issue is something that you have written about in fact.

Whether and one of the reasons I wanted you to address this is because in the very near future I am having at least the Anti federal vision position presented on my program. I would be in that camp as well of Christians.

That would be in a in opposition to The federal vision also known as the Auburn Avenue theology. And I do intend to have a federal visionist Defend his view or their view at some point perhaps even the day following that.

This is still up in the air a bit right now. I might even have a debate if it is at all possible. But just so our listeners have some kind of an understanding about this. I know that you were the editor of the book the Auburn Avenue theology pros and cons.

Debating the federal vision is that is the Subtitle if you could tell us a bit about this theology that many of our listeners may be totally ignorant of. Yeah, well.

Amazing at ourselves and this Lee yesterday to someone who's been am I. They were looking for a way? To counter that and so what they want to do. Some who are Nonetheless they never come to a profession of faith.

They never they never have faith does not guarantee salvation or akin to sort of are the children of believe are regenerate significant I think. Necessity of really preach even though they now. There are a number that led them back to Roman Catholicism because ultimately it's.

Now you obviously as the as. The book that you edited indicates there were some pros Involved in this book in favor of it. Can you list anything that you actually think is a positive element of federal vision?

Well, yes, I can. In fact, right what I morbid introspective that which I've committed to him against even in reformed circles. Even where Lord's Providence we're now in a reformed. Wonderful. Well being a reformed Baptist.

I'm glad that you're a little closer to home now.

I Hey, my friend Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church is always trying to convert my reformed Baptist friends, so. Yet in fact, I'll be seeing him In about a week. He is starting a weekly radio program that I am actually involved in orchestra a visit to the visit to the pastor study.

Which will be aired on Adonai radio WL ie very bad call letters for a Christian station WL ie but. But that's after the named after the Long Island Expressway and not the lie and. Yeah, amen, there you go.

But he will also be heard Globally live by via live streaming just as I am. So I'm looking forward to the launching of that program which will be aired every Saturday From 12 noon to 1 30 p .m. Eastern Time.

So I'm looking forward to that. But we're going to our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z en at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with dr. Calvin Beisner. I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio. And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.

He and I are going to hello.

This is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and occasional guest on Chris's show. Think I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta my new hometown.

It is going to be a bang-up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie. Welcome Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3 conference. Calm g3 conference.

Hahahahaha Thanks, Todd. I think. See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

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That's SolidRockRemodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour is Dr. E. Calvin Beisner.

With a half hour to go, Dr. Beisner is founder and national spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation, and we are discussing basically a broad spectrum of topics today, including environmental issues and theological issues, including the federal vision, which we were just discussing before the break.

If you have a question for Dr. Beisner, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. We do have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, and I love these really practical questions.

Are most Presbyterians supralapsarian, such as Calvin and Beza? Well, if you could give a very brief, as brief as possible, summary of supralapsarianism versus infralapsarianism, and if you could answer Tyler's question whether or not you believe most Presbyterians are supra or infra.

Sure.

I'll be glad to. My pretty strong impression is B .B. Warfield would do it as well. Wow. Timer. Wow. She sat in on the courses taught by Dr. Raymond. Single doctrine.

Couldn't go worse than that. The publishers of the Trinity Hymnal are delighted to hear that little plug there. Yeah, no doubt.

Love singing from it. Now, infralapsarianism, the logical order, was logically the fall, the lapse. The idea is that election logically prior to the decree of the fall. Infralapsarianism switches the order of those, and it says it's logically prior.

Now, our listener, Tyler, believes that Calvin and Beza were supralapsarian. Is that a fact? I don't know on Beza. I haven't read him enough. And it's interesting. I don't know the answer on that, but it kind of dovetails with another question I had.

I am surprised that there are some Reformed folk who take this issue seriously and even go as far as labeling supralapsarians as hyper-Calvinists, which would be ironic if Calvin was a supralapsarian.

He couldn't be hyper-Calvinist if Calvin believed in it.

Yeah, and by the way, I don't think that he did it a great deal.

Yes, I know that that was some of the reason that people have labeled John Gill, that great 18th century Reformed Baptist, the predecessor of Charles Haddon Spurgeon at Metropolitan Tabernacle, and he has been labeled as hyper-Calvinistic for that reason and for others.

There are other reasons that some have labeled him that, but there is dispute over whether or not he would warrant that title or that label. I know that Dr. Tom Nettles of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary defends Gill as not being a hyper-Calvinist and being completely in alignment with historic biblical Calvinism.

Well, I think, too, about when we devise labels, that's usually because someone's amillennial and died, and it's probably not a good idea to place Warfield in either one of those two. More recently, it's not a dime's worth of difference, so be careful not to toss labels around too much.

And going back to supra and infralapsarianism, it would seem odd to me to really start a war over this or divide over this, because when you're talking about something that is in the mind of God before humans were even on the earth, the fact that nothing takes God by surprise, he is immutable, and he is eternal, and this idea of election wasn't some thought that came into his mind later on in history or something, as if you could even use a phrase like that with God who is eternal.

But why would that even matter when, if God doesn't change his mind or new thoughts do not occur to him, how could there possibly be a serious difference in those two?

...sequence of them, which one precedes God's mind, theology, and it will get along far better with a liberal president and people who are...

Amen. We do have a listener in Clinton Township, Michigan, Jeff, who says, How could anyone promise hope to a lost sinner by any ordinance within a church? I've struggled, too, with assurance of salvation and found my comfort nowhere near my baptism, but by a thorough study of this topic in God's Word.

Chapter 18, verse 4 of the 1689 Confession addresses this as well.

Yeah, but what that means, indeed, Sally, unless the... we can say that celebration of the Lord... deals of this... whole word, visible word. Well, we get our, as in the Lord's, separable signs.

Well, thank you, Jeff, in Clinton Township, Michigan. Please keep contributing to Iron Sharpens Iron with your questions, and we look forward to hearing the next one in the future. There have been other, obviously, I'm not asking you to give elaborate descriptions because we only have 10 minutes left in our interview, but if you have any comments about some of the other controversies that have fairly recently raised their heads amidst Reformed folk, one of them involves the impassibility of God, primarily, I think, a dispute amongst Reformed Baptists, although Presbyterians may be involved in that, and the other is the Trinitarian controversy that seems to be predominantly a Presbyterian divide.

Or impassor he forth for practically the entire history of the Christian Church. It would not be, it would not be our own day in full language, and when the scriptures say these things, and we must not allow a Helian to be biblical, this is one of the reasons, frankly, why I so love Robert L. Raymond's new systematic...

He was not in systematic theology, it was an old test, is one of them that I know. So love, in terms of a debate over the passability versus the impassibility of God, I would come down on the passability side, so long as we recognize with God's...

And obviously you would not think that that contradicts his immutability either.

Where you get into problems intentionally, he suffered...

And I do want those of you who either are listening live, or who may be listening at some point in the future from the archive, the recording of the program, that I do intend eventually to get representatives of each side to spend one or two hours to explain and defend their particular position on this.

So I don't want any of you to think I'm just going to gloss over this issue very briefly. I just thought I'd mention that, because I know that there are probably already people upset with me. And as far as the Trinitarian controversy, it seems to be over economic subordinationism, that the son, even though he is co-equal and co-eternal with the father, has a...

And I've been criticized for using the term role of subordination, but I don't know how else to phrase it. But he is subordinate to the father, which does not decrease his equality or power or authority.

And I don't know if you can comment at all on this controversy, because there are some who are viewing this, if not borderline heresy, they're viewing it as heresy, and any shades of gray in between that.

The understanding of what it is to be a father, far more, good more, if we do that, that there is no mediation of one to another, no metaphysical dependence of one on another, or anything of that sort.

An economic rabbi and eternal and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct. Delighted eternity, a loving, affirmed simultaneously, the essential unity. Beyond that, I wouldn't attempt to go at this point, simply because I'm not aware of probably a lot of very technical points that are...

Well, I really appreciate you being on in the midst of a very hard day of labor, 15 hours worth of work to get your house unprepared for the hurricane, as you took shutters off your home and so on. And I just really appreciate you squeezing us into your busy schedule today, Dr. Beisner.

I know that your website is CornwallAlliance .org, CornwallAlliance .org. I look forward to having you back on the program in the very near future.

Well, thank you very much, Chris, and God bless you. God bless you too, brother.

And coming up next, it was originally going to be Pastor Andrew Hunt, but rather than Pastor Andrew Hunt, we are going to, God willing, be joined by an old friend of mine who is a part of a conference being held at the church where Pastor Andrew Hunt is the pastor.

That would be New Life Community Church in Indianapolis, Indiana. And we have coming up very soon, God willing, Pastor Ken Jones, who is an old friend of mine, been on this program years ago on the old Iron Sharpens Iron.

Many of you may recognize Pastor Ken Jones's name from the White Horse Inn program, a program that he has been a co-host on along with Dr. Michael Horton, Dr. Rod Rosenblatt, and Pastor Kim Riddlebarger that has been on the air for quite a number of years, going back to the 1990s.

And Ken Jones has been a part of that team. We'll find out if he still is because Ken and I had no time to discuss updates on his life before this program began today. But hopefully we'll be hearing from Ken Jones momentarily to discuss the 2016 Midwest Annual Reformation Conference in Indianapolis, Indiana coming up on October 15th and the 16th, I'm sorry, October 14th and the 15th at New Life Community Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

And first of all, let me greet for the first time in a number of years, Pastor Ken Jones. Yes. Hello, Chris. How are you? Good, brother. It's great to have you on the program. And we are going to be going to a station break right now.

But first of all, let me just extend to you my greetings and welcome you to the program to discuss the Midwest Annual Reformation Conference on the Order of Salvation, something that just came up briefly during my interview with Dr. Calvin Beisner.

But that was not even planned. That was just a providential occurrence that during discussions on a number of things, when supra versus infralapsarianism came up, so did the ordo salutis. But we're going to be right back to get more of an update on Pastor Ken Jones, what he is doing lately, and also what he will be speaking on October 14th and the 15th at the Midwest Annual Reformation Conference in Indianapolis, Indiana.

So don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with Ken Jones. Chris Arnzen here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia. And here's my friend, Dr. James White, to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Beis and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Balcombe, Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details, go to G3conference .com. That's G3conference .com.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Sarnes, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the second hour today is Pastor Ken Jones, and he is currently a pastor of the Missionary Baptist Church in Glendale, Florida, which is actually a suburb of Miami, Florida, and he...

Actually, it's Glendale Missionary Baptist in my head.

Okay, it's Glendale Missionary Baptist in Miami, I'm sorry. And Dr. Jones is as well known to many of our listeners as a co-host of the White Horse Inn alongside Dr. Michael Horton, Kim Riddlebarger, and Rod Rosenblatt, and I don't know if he is still co-hosting that program because we didn't have any time to catch up before the show today, but we'll find out about that and more things, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence, Pastor Ken Jones.

Ah, thank you, Chris. It's good to be with you again, and no, I am no longer with White Horse Inn. It's been a few years now. I gobble back and forth for the first two years, and we're doing.

Good. Great. Well, why don't you tell our listeners something about Glendale Missionary Baptist Church?

Well, Glendale is, it was the first predominantly in Florida, and it's a church that was familiar with the doctrines of grace, and in the time that I've been there...

Praise God. I don't know if you are officially affiliated with the Founders Ministries, but I'm sure that you have contact with them being in Florida.

I'm not a member, but I've spoken at some of their events in the past, and I'm familiar with some of the guys that are involved.

Well, I'm among the many Reformed Baptists who are delighted that Dr. Horton did not convert you to paedo-baptism.

It's been a long battle.

And you are coming up, God willing, going to be one of the speakers at the Midwest Annual Reformation Conference on the subject of the Order of Salvation. This is going to be held at the New Life Community Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, and for more details, our listeners can go to newlife-indy .org, that's newlife-indy .org, and if you scroll down to the bottom, they have a banner ad for the 2016 Midwest Annual Reformation Conference featuring my guest today, Rev. Ken Jones, also Rev. Victor Scholar, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, and Dr. Jarvis Williams.

That's October 14th and the 15th at New Life Community Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, and to register for free, if it's a free registration, go to marc .newlife-indy .org. That's marc, standing for Midwest Annual Reformation Conference, dot newlife-indy .org.

But the Order of Salvation is something that is one of the primary things that is a dividing line between those Christians who declare to have an affinity with the Protestant Reformation, and in particular with Calvinistic soteriology, also nicknamed Reformed soteriology or theology, and the doctrines of sovereign grace.

It is something that I believe is highly misunderstood because it has been caricatured by those who are opponents of Reformed theology, but if you could, in summary, explain the Ordo Salutis, or the Order of Salvation, as Calvinistic or Reformed.

Christians understand it. The idea itself is an effort sequence, or logical, imposed upon the text, but the problem with it is, and even some Reformed people have a problem with a hard and fast commitment to salvation, because the idea is a sequence.

So it begins with predestination or the decree of God, and again, there would be differences on how those things are fleshed out, and then you go to regeneration and faith, and it's an effort to look at the benefits of God's grace or grace in Christ in a particular sequence.

The biggest issue, I would think anyway, the two biggest issues that stand in the stream would be, one, in terms of understanding, and I think you alluded to it, in the infallexalian position, the idea is that God's the superlaxalian position, and most say this would come as a subset of God's decree.

I like Louis Berkoff, who says that when we speak of the decree of God, we tend to speak of the decree, where in actuality, it's singular. So there's a single decree for everything that God—in other words, He has determined in eternity, before He created, He has determined what He would create and the end thereof for it.

In that, within His will to create is included the creation of man. Knowing—not making man sin, and certainly giving him the ability and obedience—but knowing, and this is where foreknowledge, I think a more biblical understanding of foreknowledge is, knowing that man would sin, even before He created him, God provided a means by which man would be safe, which is really the language of the New Testament, specifically Paul in Ephesians 1, where he says, you know, before the foundation of the world, He has chosen us in one place of God.

And the other one would be regeneration and faith. On the Arminian, or semi-Pelagian, if not Pelagian camp, or on their side, they would say that faith precedes regeneration, would say. So those would be the major differences in terms of the order, and they are in the sequence, those benefits that we have in Christ.

Well, it seems that Ephesians 2, and in particular verse 5, has a lot to do with this controversy, where the Apostle Paul says, even when we were dead in our transgressions, we were made alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved.

That appears to be one of the texts that are right at the core of this controversy about the order of salvation. And also, I might even add Romans 8, 7, which describes the nature of man, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so.

So the question would be, how can a sinner, dead in his trespasses and sins, before he is regenerate or born again, even please God by obeying him in offering him a saving of faith or trust?

Well, again, the passages that you cited, the condition of faith in which one does not have certainty on the psalm, he goes on to describe the character of fallen humanity, which he lumps together both Jew and Gentile, and he says there's none that's good, there's none that doeth good, there's none that seeketh after God, there's none who understands.

Paul says you are not like the rest of the Gentiles who walk according to the futility of their minds, because their hearts, their understandings are darkened to do anything. And first, what we're doing when you are awakened is to be aware of your condition.

The fallen man has no ability to really grasp the gravity of his condition, nor does he possess the ability for Christ. And even if he is fallen and religious, he is misguided enough to think that he can do something on his own to rectify his condition.

And in regeneration, you are awakened, you are enlivened, and enlivened to the point of being able to recognize that in your natural state, you stand in a position of condemnation before God, and you are unable to do anything about your condition.

But through the Gospel, you have now been awakened to the mercies of God that are in Christ. So repentance is a fruit of having been awakened by condition, speaking by faith, the mercies of God.

And we could even take this a little bit further, or should I say a little earlier, in the letter to the Ephesians, when we are trying to search for an answer why this is at all important. Why is this order of salvation issue, why does it have any importance at all other than for ivory tower theologians to smoke their pipes, drink from their brandy snifters, and discuss things that have no importance to the church at large.

But the reason why it's important is that it has to do with how much of the credit or praise, honor, and glory does God deserve for our salvation, and how much do we deserve. And according to Ephesians 2 verse 8, for grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It seems that God is the one that deserves the credit for every step of our salvation, and even our faith is a gift. So therefore, this is not something summoned up from the dead lifeless soul of an unregenerate man, it is a gift of God, this faith, which he gives to those he quickens to life.

Am I right?

Right. Salvation is the result of him doing what is natural, recognizing that he's the center in and of himself, salvation, that God is the author, then to reminder that we are all on the other.

Yeah, and one of the ways that this concept is caricatured by those who are strong opponents to Calvinism, or strong opponents to what they imagine Calvinism is, because very often it's very far from the historic account of what those who wear that label actually believe, some will, you know, laughingly mock the concept of regeneration preceding faith, because they think that there is some huge gap of time that could be taking place here, where you have, as it were, born-again or regenerate zombies walking around without faith, and then all of a sudden at one point, years after they're born-again or regenerate, somehow they receive this faith, but this is really an instantaneous thing, isn't it?

Well, yeah, instantaneous, but I think one of the things that leads to that sort of that regeneration, in many Protestant circles, we talk about it almost as, and we forget the means by which we are brought.

The agent of regeneration is the Holy Spirit generation, Peter, that you have been born, you have been regenerated, and the idea is it's not just, you know, you're regenerated, and then you don't know, but what brings that new life is specifically the Spirit through the ministry of the Gospel, in that awakening itself, through the ministry of Spirit and Word, and I think our Lutheran brothers are very helpful in that regard, and the effect of being awakened in the ministry of the Word is, as we mentioned, first to recognize one's need of salvation, which is to be made conscious of one's sinful condition.