Debate: Does God Exist? # 11

CARM

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00:00

But we don't have people sitting around holding hands saying, I believe in gravity. I do not believe that things fall up, as non -believers say.

00:09

Because it's pretty clear. But when it comes to the ultimate things, like the nature of what happens when you die, the nature of the universe, all that, much, much disagreement.

00:20

Don't you think that a compassionate deity, if there was one, would have made this rather clear and not cause you to bet your immortal soul at your peril?

00:30

Now, Matt here, I just use what's known as Pascal's wager, as the term used for it.

00:36

If you don't know where there's a God, why not bet that there is, that you have everything to gain, nothing to lose?

00:42

Well, what if the nature of that God is, if there is a God, which

00:48

I don't think there is, but if there were, how do you know, Mr. Matt or anyone else, that that God will not condemn you to eternal damnation if you believe in him on insufficient evidence?

01:00

That if you believe this God on insufficient evidence, you're gone, you're cosmic flotsam. He said,

01:06

I don't want anybody who just accepts this. Jesus says, not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, is coming to the kingdom of heaven.

01:11

Maybe people like Matt, who take this on faith without requiring proof, are the ones who are going to be sitting outside the door.

01:18

And maybe the Mormons will be inside. And watching Matt toast down on the coals.

01:24

I think you missed your calling. You should have been a preacher. I've come from a long line of preachers. They just say the gene missed me, but it really didn't.

01:30

It just got redirected. I guess it's being weeded out by natural selection. Right, right. If truth is relative, let me respond.

01:37

If truth is relative, then the statement truth is relative is an absolute statement. It's a self -refuting statement and not logically true.

01:43

If you're going to base a statement and conclusions off something that's illogical and self -refuting, you're not being logical.

01:49

But we didn't come to this debate, did we, to hear illogic? Did you? Did any of you come here to hear illogic?

01:56

You want facts and evidence. I did not say I don't believe something without evidence. I have evidence. You may not like the evidence.

02:02

I have the evidence of the Bible. And we can have a discussion, if you want, on its reliability. I've been doing this for a long time.

02:08

It's reliable. We can debate it. And then it would be necessary to make judgments based upon evidence. What is the most logical conclusion to make when you have certain evidence?

02:16

Jesus himself said, and I've got to keep my time short here, Thomas, who said, I'm not going to believe he rose from the dead.

02:22

Get out of here. It's not going to work, because my presuppositions don't allow that, John 20, 27, 28.

02:28

And Jesus appears to him and says, now, look. Take your hand, put it into my side. Take your finger, put it into my hand. Now you see?

02:34

Now believe. Jesus himself said, look at the facts, look at the evidence, and draw a logical conclusion.

02:40

Now have faith. That's what I do. Jesus also said, anyone who doesn't believe, bring them before me and kill them.

02:47

He said that, too, didn't he? I myself do not ascribe from any situation that is wholly logical or illogical.

02:56

I don't, you know, like the young lady said before, you know, there's a lot of these words that sound like when Neo walked into the room and met the architect.

03:02

I'm just sitting there and saying that. What was that phrase? I want to write that down. That's great. Oh. To me,

03:10

I've lived in situations that are very illogical because I've seen people shot.

03:19

You know, I've seen people, you know, murdered. I've seen people raped. I've been a victim of a lot of this stuff personally.

03:26

A lot of this does not make logical sense. I'm not talking whether, you know, the sky is blue or the water is, too.

03:35

I've seen a lot that will sit up there, will have me to think, how could there be a

03:40

God if all of this constantly happens? So I grew up in church.

03:47

My mom, she, you know, she wanted me to be raised with good, you know, values and morals, not so much based on the idea of, you know, being so right, so holy, but just to be a good human being, to provide your best to mankind.

04:02

The debate here that you guys have both presented is does God exist?

04:08

Not the logic of whether he does, but does God exist? As I've taken myself out of a lot of situations and I've looked at everything,

04:17

I've listened to Muslims. I've listened to different other people that I've been blessed to kind of come in contact with.

04:27

And I've had many a times where I've walked away from God because there are times where I looked at the world and I looked at things, and it's like, this does not make any sense to me.

04:35

But then my thing to both parties is that I realized that there was a deep longing, something that I couldn't explain, that I tried to feel any other possible way.

04:47

Everybody's got their own little ideas about anything, and that's OK. But my thing has to do with why do

04:54

I feel this way? I could feel it with any other thing, and why do I still feel hungry for something more?

05:00

And you want them to comment on that? I'm assuming your comments will be brief. Go ahead. Yes, I just say thank you for your remarks.

05:06

That's all I have to say. 15 years ago,

05:11

I carried the body of my son to the gravesite. I prayed. I asked God to heal him before he died.

05:18

Hardest thing I've ever done is stand or sit in the funeral director's office arranging the burial of my son two days before he was born.

05:29

I don't wish that on anybody. I ask God, please heal him. God did not heal him.

05:35

Why? I don't know. And because I don't know doesn't mean God isn't there.

05:41

But then why would I have the incredibly beautiful, luscious, great wife

05:47

I have when all my friends go, how'd you do that? On the other hand, there are good things that do happen.

05:53

Why should they? Well, the atheist worldview really can't offer us any explanation, because it has no method by which it can judge what is good or bad.

06:03

It can judge things that are more painful or what they like or don't like. They don't have any objective standard.

06:08

They can say, I think that that's bad. And I'm not discrediting their opinions, but it's not a universal value of what is good or bad.

06:19

Where in the Christian worldview, yeah, we can say that. And we can offer an explanation of why these things happen because of the fall, because sin's in the world.

06:27

And all the more reason we need the Redeemer, Jesus Christ, to deliver us from what we ourselves bring about and have brought about.

06:33

Thanks for your question. We have to move along. Right. I will say that atheists deal in cause and effect.

06:39

If somebody fires a gun at somebody else, they just might get hurt. Yeah, it does.

06:44

I just think that free will is also a very important thing that a lot of people forget. God would not force his will on anybody, force anybody to believe one thing, which is why

06:54

I believe that a lot of things are pretty much kind of ambiguous and why it's always a matter of faith because it relies on free will.

07:03

I wouldn't want to deal with a God who has just, I mean, even though he has his rules and his ways, but who makes me to do something.

07:14

Because I'm human, he allows me the opportunity to choose. OK, thank you.

07:20

Yes, ma 'am. Reverend Slick, I do not think you are correct when you say that atheists do not know good from bad.

07:36

We do. We do. But that isn't my question, really.

07:44

That just came up. And that's another discussion. But I am an atheist, and I refute your illogical argument that logic could not have been created by minds because they are different and then use that argument to prove

08:03

God exists. Logic has resulted from thinking through the ages.

08:11

I'll take my answer off the air. I didn't say atheists don't know good or bad.

08:20

Did I say that? Well, they don't know the rules. Well, if I did say that, that way, then

08:25

I misspoke. On my website, I have an article, can atheists be ethical? And yes, they can be ethical.

08:32

So if I did say that, I just misspoke. Let me correct that, because you may correct me. I think the statement was, listening very closely, they have no standard by which to judge good and evil.

08:41

I don't think it was you don't know right from wrong. I think you don't have any standard. There's a difference between those two in fairness.

08:51

So I do believe that atheists can be ethical. I mean, if I drop my wallet, I fully expect if Edwin saw it,

08:58

I'd give it back to him. I would. And he could be ethical. No problem. But what

09:04

I'm saying is that the atheist worldview cannot give us an objective standard by which we can judge what truly is good and what truly is bad.

09:12

All that atheism can do is say, basically, you know what? We don't like it. Society develops the truths about what is good is bad.

09:19

But what happens when society changes? What happens, I hope this never happens, if society were to say, if you're an atheist, you need to be jailed?

09:27

I'd fight against that. I would. But if society changes, and that's where morals come from, we're in trouble.

09:37

Yeah, as soon as society changes, the Christian view that slavery is God's will sometimes has to give way.

09:43

There's what's called a decretive and a permissive will of God, and it's a theological discussion we could get into. But not now.

09:48

I'm bored to crud out of you guys. Now, you say logic is something created by minds.

09:55

OK, I'm going to do this one more time. I mean, logic cannot be the product of human minds.

10:01

Why? For two reasons. If it's a part of human chemistry, then all that you are saying is nothing more than the product of the firings of the chemical reactions in your brain.

10:11

There is no reason for you to say something is good or bad or right or wrong or true or false other than the resultant stimuli from which you get in.

10:20

There is no objective anything at that state. It just becomes that which occurs in your own brain. And if it contradicts what's in my brain, then who is to say what's in mine is right and yours is wrong?

10:30

Or vice versa, if all it is is chemistry. Since different people's brains are different chemically, then we would have truths that are different.

10:38

But we can't have that. Otherwise, you don't have the transcendent nature of logical absolutes.

10:44

Philosophers have, excuse me, you can read their books on it, but they put this to bed already. And a lot of people just don't know the dog's dead.