Cessationism with Justin Peters & Matt Slick

So you're saying and while I'm clarifying make sure I understand you you're saying that as believers

We no longer are under the law meaning. Yes, no right and wrong

No Right and wrong judgment upon your conscious

Authority to judge your conscious it has no right to condemn your conscious

Like the all the people let me give it because you are not under its dominion. Okay, so If a believer you are because you are dead with Christ then

Lord doesn't have authority to speak the dead Okay, so so as a believer

Are you saying that someone a believer can go sleep with a prostitute and it wouldn't be right or wrong because he's not under the law

Is so if he sleeps with a prostitute but has faith in doing it then it's okay

Yeah, it's okay Okay, I'm gonna ask this again because I want to make sure that I heard you correctly

Yeah, it's okay. It would be as long as you have faith on you can do that.

We can wait Wow, okay You're saying that as long as we have faith

Whatever we do in faith is not sin Yes Welcome to apologetics live we're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible meet your hosts from striving for Eternity ministries Andrew Rappaport. Dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor

Justin Pierce We are live apologetics live here to answer your challenging questions about God and the

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I have an answer for every Bible question you have Because I don't know is a perfectly good answer so a

Little bit of a different thing that we're gonna be doing tonight First off a little different view that you have

I'm looking up and I know that and so the reality is is

I'm gonna explain why I'm looking up in just a moment and Give you a little bit of a thing

I'm just I'm hoping that Matt slick would get in here so I can make him feel bad and me explaining why I'm looking up I'm just saying but I know that we we said this is going to be

Sensationalism with Justin Peters and Matt slick So this was not clickbait.

I just couldn't once we set it up. We couldn't change it Matt may not be able to make it.

So I'm gonna start the show with asking for a prayer request first for Matt For those of you who don't know

Matt slick's wife is got really some some serious health issues and Matt is basically kind of become a full -time caregiver

For his wife, so he's running a ministry He's full -time caregiver for his wife

And then he's got to take over like all the responsibilities that she would have in cooking and cleaning and things like that. So So Matt was so stressed.

He called me earlier in the week and just said I'm taking the week off I'm not doing a radio show nothing.

He just needed to Decompress and so he said he's gonna try to come in but he may not and then afterwards a couple days ago

Justin asked if if it'd be alright, you know since Matt wasn't gonna be on If he could not be here because this is the last night he has to spend with his bride

And he's gonna be two weeks in Madagascar So be praying for Justin as well for the trip

And I mean, how do you say no to a guy when he wants to spend time with his wife? Hello You So so with with Matt not being here made sense, but we still have some some heavy hitters

Well, okay. I wasn't talking about weights But yeah, I think that fits now We got we got some good good guys here in backstage that will help with some discussion

We're still gonna have the same topic of sensationism. We want to promote a conference that's going on before I get to that though I need to explain why

I'm looking up and what I want to do is is quickly show something here is

I want to Let's see Sorry, it's just that I have this really big screen right now.

I'm gonna show it to you so so I and and I for full disclosure, I should explain this is some of you may know because I've explained some thing products on this show before but I Have a an association with a group called the insiders

They what they do is they send me products for me to review and I get some of those products it well

I could get some at discount, but some I get well for free as I did in this case

I Was contacted they said hey, we want to test out Samsung has a new monitor.

They want to test out now. This monitor is called the the Arc I think is what it's called

And so it's the arc G arc G9 I think and so I'm gonna show you what my desk looks like now

I want you to keep in mind what I had as a computer is a 27 inch iMac that's the big boy okay, you're gonna see that in this picture and Just just look how tiny my iMac looks

Look at that little tiny iMac compared to this. This is a 55 inch curved monitor

Now I'm preparing for the conference. We're going to talk about in the show

But in that preparation what you see on the left is first Corinthians 12 13 and 14 all on one screen three chapters of the

Bible in Lagos on the screen This is so so I got this for free to do a review, but I give an unbiased review

I don't I Give the good the bad and the ugly as I see it and but I will say this

This is this thing's also a smart TV It was wild to try to you know turns up they had the the the

TV Was it Samsung TV? So you're like the movie and it's it's curved around. It's it's really wild to watch

Never seen anything like that and so You know, this is bit so it wasn't till I set it up that I realized

I mean my monitor My iMac is a big look at how little It's But this is this has been really neat so the problem though is is my camera is all the way up there and so the the

This is a this is I will say it's it's a gaming monitor. It's meant for games but You know like I'm using it just as a monitor

But I love the real estate of just having so much and I I mean I can put so much on the screen.

It's great It's just that when we do the show now, I'm gonna be looking up so it now what that means is that This ends up meaning one thing that I have a different problem and That is that sometimes

I'll look down and see if I start looking down and if I move this you could see See, I got this thing right here.

You can you see the bald spot? That's a Jewish bald spot case You're not wondering that's why Jewish people have these

This is actually the yarmulke that or keepa that I wore for my bar mitzvah as it fell

And so this this is this is to cover up the Jewish bald spots. See that's that's why

Jewish people wear keepa's This is the this is the one that we actually gave away at my bar mitzvah

We'd mark it in there and it says the date that I was born Mitzvah, but enough fun and games.

Let me bring in the man of the hour Mr. Jim Osmond, that's me.

I guess huh? That's you. You're the man of the hour So we're gonna talk about a conference that we're gonna do at at your your church before we do though For in the news segment.

I figured you you probably saw this and I figured you can enjoy this you you saw that Elon Musk did a visit to Twitter's office, huh?

Yeah, he wanted that to sink in That Was pretty funny he walks into the offices with it with a

Bathroom sink it just is walking around looking for where to put it just puts it down and post the video of that It says let this sink in.

I forgot to start up. Okay, I'm gonna start up on the wisdom app. So that folks on wisdom can Can be listening to us and join us so that'll be another way people can join and ask questions so So I saw this

This was really quite interesting. Well, let me first let me play a quick video Jim I don't know if you saw this video, but this is the day in the life of You know someone who works at Twitter And it seems like it's a pretty rough job.

Let's give this a watch Wait, it would help if I made sure that the audio was set up, right?

Would that help? Let's see. Yeah, that would be a good thing. So let us

Go to Where is I don't know if you've seen this video yet Jim, but this is this was played on some of the

Some of the political podcasts but the day in the life of a Twitter employee my life as a

Twitter employee so this past week went to SF for the first time at a Twitter office badged and Honestly took a moment to just soak everything and what a blessing

Also started my morning off with an iced matcha from the perch then I had a meeting so Quickly scheduled one of these little pod rooms, which were so cool

They're literally noise cancelling took my meeting got ready for a bunch. Look how delicious this food looks.

Oh my goodness I was so overwhelmed Then made my way down to this log cabin area.

I don't know what this is, but it was Friends kind of unwind a bit

Also found this really cool meditation room that I thought was super neat I didn't do any yoga, but they have this yoga room if you are a yogi, so also thought that was really cool

Had a couple more meetings in the afternoon had a ton of projects that we needed to knock out Went to the went to the library to kind of get some more work done

Had to have our afternoon coffee so made some espresso and then before leaving for the day had some red wine on That's on tap

Went up to the rooftop and just honestly enjoyed the beautiful weather

So awesome trip So that looks like a really rough job, huh?

It looks like a day in the life of an employee of a seeker sensitive Church Yeah, I mean

I Didn't know I didn't know if she was getting any work done Well this last week it came out that Elon Musk had told his investors that had invested in his takeover of Twitter that he was gonna fire 75 % of the

Twitter employees now that that's a good start You could do 75 % and then let's talk about another 24 % after that Yeah, I mean he my theory is he could he could start off with just firing the you know

Those the the fact -checkers and no one would notice like that all of a sudden there'd be free speech on But but here's the thing

You we watch that video where she's walking around all the great food and yoga and foosball

And you know, maybe a 30 -minute meeting. I don't know where she got the time to do work, but I played that because This was in the news.

This is from time and This is what it says. This is a letter from the

Twitter workers and Jim I'm gonna be curious your response and then I'm gonna I'm gonna read what what?

Elon Musk's response sort of is to some of this stuff But this is in time. It says we the workers of Twitter will not be intimidated

We we recommit to supporting the communities organizations and businesses that rely on Twitter We will not stop serving the public conversation now,

I'm just gonna stop there to say I Want you to remember all self -awareness. Yeah, why is it that?

Elon Musk said he wanted to buy Twitter right Free speech, right

Okay because when I read this and Jim, I'm just I Want to see what your response is gonna be because I don't know if you've have you seen this before I think

I read parts of it. Yeah, this is just amazing the the Entitlement mentality.

I mean how out of touch these people are with the way the world works, but let me read what they wrote to Elon Musk So here here's what rest of what says we call on Twitter management and Elon Musk to cease these negligent layoff threats as Workers we deserve

Concrete commitments so we can continue to preserve the integrity of our platform we demand we demand of current and future leadership respect

We demand leadership to respect the platform and the workers who maintain it by committing to preserving the current headcount

During a recession, they're demanding they're demanding Hey boss, you just bought the company and we're telling you you you can you have to respect us and can't fire us

Even if we're not doing anything any work like the video we just saw Right.

Okay safety We demand that leadership does not discriminate against workers.

This is classic Workers on the basis of race gender disability sexual orientation up to there.

We're fine, Jim But this next one is kind of amazing. They don't want to be discriminated against or political beliefs

These are people who have made their hay discriminating against political beliefs, yeah They want it.

So that's the whole thing. They want to be able to discriminate against anyone's political beliefs other than the leftists

But no one should should you know discriminate and Then it says we also demand safety for workers on visas who also

Who will be forced to leave the country that they work in if they're laid off?

the third one protection we demand Elon Musk explicitly commit to preserve our

Benefits of those both listed in the merger agreement and not such as remote work

We demand leadership To establish and ensure fair severance policies for all workers before and after any changes

Before any but before and after any changes in ownership Last is dignity dignity we demand

Transparent prompt and thoughtful communication around our working working conditions we demand to be treated with dignity and to and To not be treated as mere pawns in a game played by billionaires.

Sincerely Twitter workers What are your thoughts on this that just perfectly expresses the narcissistic self aggrandizing entitled mentality of Probably 90 % of the people who work there these people have never been told no in their entire lives

They've never had anything withheld from their entire lives They've never had to work for anything their entire lives and there's no better place for them to work than a place like Twitter and my only hope and Desire is that they would get exactly what would come to them in a marketplace where they're not where they're where their

Interests are not coddled and they have to actually work for a living Elon Musk accomplishes great things because he has people that are willing to compete and he understands what's necessary to compete in the

Marketplace and especially the marketplace of ideas and he's not going to sit by back and let these bunch of sniveling entitled narcissists

Tell him what to do. And these are people who at the beginning of it. They said we will not be intimidated These are the most easily intimidated people on the planet.

They see a Matt Walsh poster for what is a woman they melt down and Quivering sniveling heaps of human flesh unable to deal with any idea that does not fit.

They're already pre -approved narrative. So Yeah, that's all I would have to say about it Yeah, I mean it

I I couldn't like they're demanding of their boss now for those of you who are watching and listening

I mean how many of you could walk in your boss's office and this isn't walking in the office

They put this out in time This is this is public and make demands that you can't be fired

Demand that all your all your benefits be preserved even ones that haven't been agreed to There are people who think that all of this stuff is owed to them.

Yeah, but right they have a right to these things And this is why we see Twitter or the way it was where we're so they actually think they're that they're doing a good thing

By censoring speech and they claim, you know, if you disagree with what their view is, that's harmful

Yeah, okay, but here's you know, Elon put out let me put this up real quick and I'll read this this is

Elon explaining to the the advertisers why he bought

Twitter and I think this is this is very telling, you know, because he now keep in mind Elon Musk is a guy who

You know, he when that when his company wasn't doing well, he took one dollar as his salary

So that the this basically the owners of the company those that have stock Wouldn't take the hit.

Oh He gave up his own money Right. This is it should be a thing liberals would like Right.

Yeah, he's got the number one green energy company in the world Well, he was he was a leftist here until he until he starts saying hey the left is lost their mind

Yeah But I mean, this is like I mean, we're gonna read this this seems like common sense to us

But this is what Elon said. He said I wanted I wanted to reach out Personally to share my motivation for in acquiring

Twitter. There has been much speculation about why I Bought Twitter and what

I think about advertising Most of it has been wrong The reason that I acquired

Twitter is because it's important to the future of civilization to have a common digital town square where a wide range of Beliefs can be debated in a healthy manner without resorting to violence

There is currently great danger in that social media will splinter into far right and the far left

Wing echo chambers that generate more hate and divide our society in that relentless pursuit of clicks much of the traditional media has fueled and Cater to the polarizing extremes as they believe that is what brings in the money

But in doing let me switch to the other One here. Hold on. I wish

I could just put up two screens at once. But So he says So so here's so he said it here.

This is why I bought Twitter I didn't do it because I thought it would be easy. I didn't do it to make more money

I didn't do it. I did it to try to help humanity whom I love and I do so with humility and recognizing that Future that few failure in pursuing this goal despite our best efforts is a very real possibility

That said Twitter Obviously cannot become a free -for -all Hellscape where anything can be said with no consequences in addition to adhering to the laws of the land

Our platform must be a warm and welcoming to all where you can choose your desire to experience according to your preference

Just as you can choose for example to see movies or play video games ranging from ages all ages to mature

So, you know, he's basically saying he just wants this to be a place where we can have open discussion

Yeah, and that's what the left does not want. Correct? Well, why wouldn't they Jim?

Well, they can't win their ideas cannot win. Their ideas are contrary to humanity They're contrary to the laws of nature nature's

God. And so and their ideas don't work socialism doesn't work I mean there when when they're really expressing their ideas.

It's You know, they're advocating for the death of the unborn. They're advocating for stealing people's

Money through taxation and theft they're advocating for letting criminals out of prisons all these things that results in death

The entire spirit of the left is a is a democratic satanically originating

Theory and mindset and so they they want to shut down free speech because they cannot engage people in their ideas

Totalitarianism does not sell freedom does Liberty does Prosperity does and those are things that are anti left

That's so judgmental of you Jim, I know it is very judgmental So so let's get into I want to I'm going to share one more thing now that I want us to discuss

And this will get us into the topic tonight and that is a conference that's going on at your church the sensationist conference now now

I think it's a fair and some people are saying is this going to be Strange fire 2 .0,

right? No. No. No, we don't at Kootenai We don't have the intellectual firepower to put on a strange point

Oh, that's something you got to go to grace community church to get so we're not even trying to communicate

We're not even trying to sorry compete with grace nor are we trying to ride their coattails and we're not trying to Duplicate them or imitate them at all

They do what they do and and to be clear you keep saying sensations, but it's cessation Yeah, it's just it's a verbal tick and it's your list

Yeah, at least I'm always consistent when I do So the the thing and the reason

I'm saying I don't think this is really strange fire 2 .0 is because We're strange fire focused a lot on The the the charismatic

Chaos the the the craziness that goes in the charismatic movement this one this conference is a

Positive affirmation of the doctrinal position that certain gifts have ceased

Okay, so it is the the see now I'm trying not to say Cessation Position and so The the thing is that we're giving a positive affirmation.

So one of the things the way this show came about that actually Matt slick has said on the radio

And and this this was really funny. You have someone that works or sorry that goes to church with you

Jim. He's at your church Who works at for striving fraternity? He's our webmaster he also through through my connection with him is the webmaster for karm and He would

Matt was talking to this individual Not realizing where he goes to church and and talking to him and it was you know

Saying how there's this conference going on and is very divisive to the body of Christ and we shouldn't be having this conference

He didn't know who was involved in it and he didn't know I was speaking at it Didn't know that he's talking to someone who's you know, he's going at it.

So it leads worship at that church At this at your at Kootenai Community Church.

And so so he ends up going well Matt I go to that church and and Jim's my pastor and Matt wanted to show up and say he argued we need to give the other side and so This little

Johnson give the other side Benny Hinn can give the other side Kenneth Copeland Gloria Copeland Paula white

Beth Moore. They can represent the other side. The other side has already been represented Unfortunately all too well here and abroad and so and that's the whole thing is

I said to you know, I asked Matt You know, so I wanted to answer this first thing is, you know, Matt says that this is

Divisive and I'm gonna ask you your response. My response to Matt was this I think that you know,

Matt has a whole website devoted to Calvinism and Calvinism is far more divisive than the gifts.

I mean Calvinism you have people who are saying that others are not saved there's not as much of that within within the continuous continuationist and Cessationist circles people are not arguing that someone's not saved.

I think Calvinism is far more divisive Than the continuing or ceasing of the gifts and I think he conceded on that point

But Jim, do you think it's it's divisive for us to put on this conference or for you to put on this conference?

It can be but I would argue that all doctrine is divisive every doctrine divides So there's nothing you could anytime you're gonna discuss anything and I do mean anything

You're gonna find something that disagrees with that So all doctrine and all discussion of doctrine is gonna divide

Christians into one of two camps The question is whether or not what we're dividing over is worth the division

So, I mean if we were if if we were coming out with a cessationist conference saying anybody who disagrees with the cessationist position is

De facto an unbeliever that this is a salvation issue Then I think that well that's being needlessly divisive on a level that the doctrine doesn't warrant but that's not what we're saying we're making the case that Say we're making the case for cessationist.

And while we're acknowledging that yes, there are Continuationists who are our brothers in Christ but we think that this is a doctrine that is worth discussing and worth making the case over because the abuses are obviously very prolific across Evangelicalism and they're on full display every time you turn on Christian television.

So the we need to address the abuses. We need to address the doctrine itself We need to make some clarifications about what we mean by cessationism and what we don't mean by it

We don't mean that it's a salvation issue we need to dispel some of the myths of Surrounding cessationism and again, like you pointed out.

We're not dealing with necessarily the abuses the blasphemies the Holy Spirit though That's part of it that strange fire addressed

We're really dealing with the doctrine itself and all of this in conjunction with the movie that is soon to come out on the bear on that issue

Yeah, and so and this is why I think yes This the conference if anyone's going to be if you can make it up to Kootenai community church

Sandpoint, Idaho This is going to be on the 18th of this month of November so I mean the the speakers, you know,

Jim, I want i'll let you speak to How this conference came about why we're doing it while you're doing it um, and then and then

I I have the the I could share the schedule if you want and and let's go through each of the topics and what what's going to be covered

Yeah, we could do that one more thing about the divisiveness issue Every secondary or tertiary doctrine in christianity could be said to be divisive

You could say that about the pato baptist versus credo baptist and yet i'm sure matt takes a position on that You could say it on the pre -millennial versus post -millennial on millennial pre -trib post -trib covenant dispensational

Um, you know, you can say it on on all of those what we would call secondary or tertiary issues within christianity all those things divide but Just because it's divisive doesn't mean that it's that it's harmfully divisive or needlessly divisive

Correct. Yeah, and I think I think uh, chris suffier agrees with you jim bring in that heat

All right, so so some questions so, uh Vincent asks is is matt a

Continuationist, right? Yes. Matt is a continuationist. He believes the gifts continue Melissa is asking is this the same church that missionary gamer is with?

jim Can you answer that question? uh, I mean he technically shows up once in a while we try not to associate with him too closely, but Yeah, it is he runs all your video, correct?

He does. Yeah I'm, just i'm just uh, i'm just slighting him a little bit there a little bit on him.

But yes missionary gamer is Is a part of our church? Yeah, happily so I hope to be out there and maybe you know do some evangelism with him in the gaming world because last time

He had me in for hours and We didn't talk to anybody, you know, it was really boring So so let's

I want to talk about In the first part of this this I want to promote the conference talk about the conference why you're doing the conference and then get into You know, really what's going to be discussed at this conference?

And then we got some folks backstage. We'll bring in and just have a discussion on a positive affirmation for the ceasing of gifts

Yeah, there you go. You avoided the cessationist word. That's right. I'm trying And and you could you check this out, uh, melissa lex one of our

Podcasters she's with thoroughly equipped podcast. We'll have her on next week Says my kids watch missionary gamer.

So we have to let him know that uh, You know That he is being watched by others that uh from being on the show i'm sure

So so why why do this conference what what brought this about? Well, this all started back at g3 actually last year

Um a year ago now when we were down in g3 We had a table there. You had a table with justin peters and myself.

We had all our books out there between a couple of the sessions And I think uh, yeah, uh drew and uh, chris were both, uh at g3

But anyway between a couple of the sessions, uh, I noticed everybody of course comes up to the various tables and a bunch of people were there getting their pictures taken with justin and talking with justin and I noticed this guy kind of hanging off over to the side of the tables

And so while justin was chatting with somebody I kind of walked over and said you waiting to talk to justin He said yeah, i've got an interview scheduled with him

I'd contacted him for a movie that we're filming and and so I said, uh, what do you what are you filming?

And he said well, we're doing a movie on cessationism. I said, oh, that sounds great. Perfect. Well I said wait till the next session begins this

Exhibit hall will kind of clear out and then i'll help you get justin out of here And across the street if you try taking him out of here now, you're just going to get mobbed

Walking from a to b with justin because you never go anywhere with him that people don't stop and want to talk

So I said wait till the exhibit hall clears out and then i'll help you escort him over to the hotel So anyway, we got chatting and he asked me who

I was and what I did and how I was there with justin And so I kind of explained my connection a little bit with justin and one of my books

God doesn't whisper was there on the table for sale And so he asked me about the book and I kind of gave him the gist of it well, it obviously is kind of in line with Cessationist theology.

You don't have to be a cessationist to critique the hearing from god Methodology, but um the hearing from god methodology certainly fits in the cessationist camp

So for instance, greg coco would take issue with that And so would gary friesen, but neither of them would be strictly cessationist

And but yet they would agree with all of the critiques that I made concerning the methodology of hearing from god

So I just kind of briefly explained this and he said well, why don't you come over and and uh be interviewed as well?

And I I kind of looked down at myself. I was wearing this lime green green lime green duluth trading company polo shirt and I said

It is the same color as the uh, the cones they put on the streets, too I look like a traffic cone

I look like I should have been standing next to the road holding a stop slow sign doing this in the traffic That's what

I looked like And I said, uh, I said I didn't dress today to look for an interview and he said no No, that'd be fine.

Sure. It'd be fine and so I went over and justin did his interview and then We kind of got to the end of justin's interview and he looked at me and he said so we got like five minutes of roll left you want to say something and I said

Sure, so I put on microphone sat down and they recorded I got like 10 seconds or I got like five minutes of interview

But I had about three seconds in the trailer and he said if this movie gets funded We want to this is just for a trailer.

We want to go ahead and make the movie and so I thought oh But there's a good chance that nothing that I said will make it in the trailer

And if you watch the cessationist trailer, you'll notice this this stream of people in three -piece suits and shirts and ties and sweater vests and tweed jackets and then

There's me looking like a traffic cone. I just kind of show up and kind of get that green Image that burns into your retina and i'm not dressed for the interview at all

And I didn't think i'd actually make in the trailer, but they put me in there And then the thing got funded and so the filmmakers called me up and they said hey

We want to come up to kootenai and we want to re -interview you for the film, which I was saying Yeah, yeah that would give me a chance.

I have a whole wardrobe now I can choose from And uh, I said, yeah, that'd be great and they said we're working out dates and everything

And I said justin's only six hours away So if you want more footage of justin and then I can have him come over as well

And I said, oh, yeah, that'd be great. So we set a date and then he suggested and this was tim cannon I was talking to tim said, um

Do you know who john sampson is I said? Yeah, I know john. He's a he was a pastor down in uh, he is a pastor down in arizona phoenix, arizona and he used to be the uh the host for the local tbn television program

Down in phoenix and the lord saved him out of word of faith new apostolic reformation charismatic theology

And now he pastors a reformed baptist church down in phoenix and i've met him a couple of times at shepherd's conference

We like to hang out. We're good friends. We we text regularly. He's a great guy. I love john And so I said, yeah,

I know john and they said he said would you mind if we flew him up? Because that'd be cheaper than flying all of us down to him

If we just flew him up we could do all three of you at the same place. I said sure That'd be great. That's a great idea Save you guys some money and and you could kind of hear him pause and said well

What if we flew in a bunch of other guys too for the for an interview? And we just would kootenai be willing to host all the interviews

And and we'll fly the guys in and just line up a series of interviews if you just let us use your facility And I said, yeah, if you're going to fly all these guys in then why don't we do it over the course of a weekend?

And do the interviews and we'll put on a conference and have all of the the guys who are coming in to be interviewed

Do a session of the conference and we'll put together sort of a teaching conference on the subject of cessationism and then we'll

Make that footage available. We'll record that make that footage available to for the film as well So they were excited about that That's how the whole thing kind of got

Planned and and then I said to him, uh, you pick the speakers and tell me who's coming And i'll put together a list of subjects that are attached to this general theme

And we'll do a friday night and an all day saturday Series of teaching and and we'll let you do a round table and you can record what you want use what you want

Our people will benefit from it and you guys will have a cheap way of getting a lot of material for the film

So that's how we that's how the conference came to be So let's let's talk through what the topics are in this

Let me share the the schedule that you you put together for the conference. So let's go through this just explain to folks um

You know what you're because because you're kind of doing the conference part of it and they're doing the interviews

So you gave you you had a list of topics that you wanted covered And so yeah, so what we did is we took one of these

Yeah, I can't read it because it's on my small screen here. So I can't see the screen So i'll let you give me the session titles, but yeah,

I can give you where you do that Yeah, so what we did is we just took the list of speakers that they gave us And then

I sent out an email to all the speakers and say is there anything related to the cessation of subject? that is kind of your uh, you know your your wheelhouse your specialty that you would maybe be able to do a 45 to one minute to one hour session on At the conference and I just got back a series of things that people kind of responded back

And so yeah, I could do this i've done that I could I I would kind of like to handle this So then we we took those subjects and those speakers and we just put them into a logical flow of kind of describing introducing the

The definition of it and then kind of working through the theology of it and then ending with some very applicable stuff

At the very end. So that's kind of how we put together that structure This is kind of funny someone someone posted this

This is really funny Oh snap, I got name dropped But but what's his name?

We don't know because he didn't go to apologetics live Dot com to give facebook permission to use his name.

So facebook use I don't remember. Did we drop the name facebook user? Uh, no,

I I dropped the name. John samson, uh, tim cannon, uh Yeah, i'm trying to think who who

Who's who is facebook user, uh, so john here paul atomic apologetic says will jim be giving

A free copy of his book away tonight. So yes contact andrew ascribing fraternity and he will email you a copy

I I think i'd be willing to make a mail you a copy. You know what I will I will make the john if you're willing to Trade me

I will give you all of jim's books if you want to trade me your nice red scarlet, uh, uh,

Schuyler bible, you know that uh, you you covet so that I covet so much You can do a trade

All right, so so the first the first session you have is defining cessationism with With kevin.

Hey, yeah, kevin. Hey is a speaker with a writer with g3 ministries Okay, I was gonna ask who because I haven't met kevin.

We're I haven't met him in person yet I guess a long time. I didn't know that but um

So do you know much about kevin and and and um, he's a guy, uh, he he writes for g3

And he's a cessationist. That's what I know okay, so We're starting off you're starting off the conference with defining cessationism.

What do you what what's that topic? What do you? So we want to make a debt we want to cover what is the definition definition of cessationism and contrast it with the doctrine of continuationism

Continuationism to show that not maybe maybe not necessarily all continuationists are um charismatic extreme charismatics word of faith new apostolic reformation

But that all continuationists have certain things in common. They believe in the continuation of certain gifts

So when we say cessationist, what do we mean? We have when sometimes when I say tell somebody that i'm a cessationist they'll say oh, so you don't believe in the gifts

And I said, oh, hold on. What do you mean? I don't believe in the gifts. What gifts? specifically Um, I want them to define that because I believe in all kinds of gifts the gifts of teaching and preaching and administration helps in faith and giving etc um,

I just don't believe and I believe in fact in all the other gifts that were given at a specific time, but I don't believe that today the holy spirit is given giving the gift of tongues the gift of healing the gift of prophecy or the gifts of revelation

And the gift of miracles that he gave in the first century, so I believe those gifts existed I believe that they functioned.

I believe they fulfilled their purpose and now the spirit does not give those gifts anymore So I I do believe in the gifts

And I believe in the continuation of many spiritual gifts. Just not all spiritual gifts

Correct. So and we want to we want to address in that session some of the myths that people raise regarding Continuation is what we believe and don't believe there's a lot of misunderstandings

About us that we don't believe in the power of the holy spirit anymore. We don't believe that god does miraculous things anymore

Uh, we don't believe that god heals anymore etc And then

I there was a change from the original which I was kind of glad because originally you had justin peters starting

Saturday morning and then I was supposed to follow justin peters, which was really

Like who wants to follow justin Intimidating. Yeah. Yeah So so the second session on friday night is going to be with justin peters on the modern charismatic resurgence

What's that talk going to be about? Yeah, so justin has a session in his clouds without water seminar where he goes through some of the you know

Phineas quimby and some of the early charismatic leaders and the sort of the resurgence of charismatic theology

In the early 1900s late 1800s early 1900s and then sort of the explosion with the azusa street

Phenomenon in the 1950s. He kind of talks about that that more modern resurgence of charismatic theology and and who some of the charlatans and frauds and liars and and women abusers and Absolute crooks that led in some areas of that movement

He addresses and kind of gives the history of some of those people what happened to them And um and what they taught

And so it's going to be a little bit of that and then justin's going to work in Some of the other even more modern charismatic leaders just to kind of talk about you know recently

Here's here's how this has all come onto the scene And here are the type of people who have promoted this doctrine from the very beginning

And of course the point of that is not to suggest that Every person who is a continuationist is a fraud

But happy it is to say that the movement itself has been characterized by These types of people all the way through this this movement's history

So the next starting off saturday morning You got you got me starting us off on saturday morning.

So that yeah Well, I mean we're not necessarily starting off on the best foot, but that's just the way it worked out

I figured you know This is a good time to you know, let folks know that you you did that so that people could sleep in late

You were thinking you were thinking that people would want to You know make sure that they go get themselves my pillow

And so they can get some extra sleep on saturday morning and and just skip that first session So if folks do want to do that, they could go to mypillow .com

and use the promo code sfe to get their discount and uh And here we we have we have john here

Uh with his his my pillow and his red schuyler bible there, so yeah

So, um, yeah, I mean if uh, so If they wanted to listen if if they bring their my pillow to the conference

You will get a free copy of each of andrew's books and they'll give you a free copy of all my books

That jim will pay for Ha ha Uh, but but yeah, we we are sponsored by my pillow

So if you want to get yourself a good pillow go to mypillow .com use promo code sfe I do a lot of people are saying they're getting they're getting uh, my pillows for christmas gifts.

So Uh, but I will give a better christmas gift for you is is go to a striving fraternity dot org

Go to the store pick up my book. What do we believe we're use a promo use the coupon code christmas to get 50 off From now until christmas so you can buy as many copies as you want to give them away as christmas gifts.

So Uh encourage you to go and do that So, uh, what what's my talk going to be on?

I know you're doing kind of a theology a biblical theology approach to cessationism basically to make make the case of what was what were

Miracles intended to do um the history of the bible. When did miracles occur? What was it in connection with and then your your goal is to show that?

Uh, even in the new testament era you have this explosion of miracles with jesus and then the apostles

But even in the ministry of jesus You see a tapering off of miracles toward the end of his ministry as people began to reject him and his message

And he presented the kingdom and then demonstrated did the signs that were evident Uh that demonstrated the evidence that he was in fact the king and he could legitimately offer

The davidic messianic kingdom to the jewish nation, but when the jews rejected him, um towards the end of his ministry those time those signs

Didn't cease entirely because I mean you even have him raising lazarus from the dead within the last week Of his or close to the last week of his ministry there but It was the last week last year.

So within last year of his ministry for sure Lazarus was just days before Days before his passion week.

Yeah Okay, that's what I thought. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay, so even toward the end of his ministry jesus still did uh miracles, but the they were not of the of the um

The number that you see early in his ministry and then you see the same thing in the apostolic era

You see in the book of acts an explosion as it were of miracles Uh in the early years of the apostles

But then you see the fading out of those miracles toward the end of the apostolic era and the pattern is the same

Um with the apostles and the purpose was the same as well namely to a testify to testify to their authority

Um to their commission to proclaim christ and to speak as his spokesman So that your job is to demonstrate that and and you know,

I may or may not cover some of that to tonight, but probably not so Uh, and and I should we should mention this this conference is not going to be live -streamed

Uh, you know the the footage of it is going to be used for the film the cessation cessationist um

Uh, really quick melissa is asking here. Wasn't matt slick supposed to be on tonight or am

I mistaken? No, you're not mistaken um, I said at the beginning matt, uh Matt is basically a full -time caregiver right now to his bride and that's what he is.

He is doing. Uh, he just he had a ton of stress And just took a week off so he asked if he you know, we'll try to reschedule the purpose of this was to Talk about it in light of the conference and matt's concerns with with the conference.

We did address those in earlier um, and for matt and and justin to be able to have a discussion since Uh, and and I should mention this because matt has said this on his radio show.

He's made the claim that justin had. Um, Basically blew him off is the claim that that justin had blown matt off Uh when matt wanted to talk to him about gifts and and matt said that that was a recent like last couple of months

Matt and justin haven't talked for over a year. So it's not recent Um, but I actually remembered

I had to tell matt I remember when he had that discussion and it wasn't He asked justin he wanted to have a debate

And it's not that justin said he wouldn't that he didn't blow matt off and now and say I don't want to talk about Gifts period the way matt has said it.

It's that Matt wanted to debate him and and jim you you've known justin for for a long time

He doesn't do debates No, he doesn't no So that's not his so so, you know,

I think matt like, you know I think he just got it confused or he was he was thinking just having a discussion

But I remember he at the time he he said he wanted to debate justin and if he asked justin for a debate justin's gonna say no because I've i've asked justin if he'd be willing to do debates on on certain topics and he said no he doesn't do debates.

So um It wasn't so that was that was really why we tried putting this together

And both of them had to take care of their wives and therefore um You know

Yeah, we're we're here now doing this so um So then the next the next topic or next person that you have on here

Uh following me is someone I know is pastor john rutherford uh john is because I don't think you've you've met him, but Uh past john and I used to go to the princeton train station every friday morning

And do open air evangelism down at the train stations, uh, because we down at princeton you have it is kind of neat to see but like three minutes before the train arrives

There's like nobody on this on the station. There'll be a handful but then three minutes before I mean the station is full

With people that come in because they commute to new york and we would just preach the gospel We'd go on the on the other side and preach the gospel up to them

And so, uh, he and I used to do that and then we'd go get coffee So, uh, I had I already we already started the conference fellowship as you know

Uh, jim, I sent you a picture that we went out for dinner because we hadn't reconnected in a long time

So you have him on the uh, biblical theology of the spirit's work. So what's he going to cover in that?

Yeah, he's written a book on the doctrine of the holy spirit, which he sent me a copy of that. I haven't read it yet um, he's basically going to show that You know that yeah, yeah, that looks like it's called the church of the holy spirit.

Yeah So he he's going to cover um the work of the holy spirit in the old testament

How the old testament anticipated that in the new testament what the spirit did during the life of jesus and the apostles?

And then kind of culminating with what is the spirits? What is a biblical theology of the spirit's ministry in the church today?

That's what he's covering Which i'm really looking forward to that Yeah, yeah, he's he's a good guy so let's the the session five is uh

Charismaticism a different biblical approach with dan phillips. I'm excited when I saw dan was coming.

I haven't I haven't I've spoken at a conference with dan many years ago and haven't seen him since Brilliant guy and and he's also

I saw that you have him doing sunday school not the preaching so I I am looking forward to sunday because I figure

I haven't heard john sampson at all. But if you if if you bump dan phillips for someone that guy's got to be good

Yeah, dan is uh, dan bolt dan and I had to I wanted dan and john bolt to speak and so I had to kind of Choose between the two of them

And I looked at dan's um, I watched one of dan's messages that he gives at his church

And I thought man, this is really his style is really. Uh, um, it's just great He's a great preacher dan is a great preacher his style is really kind of a real good teaching style

So I thought that will fit really well for sunday school of what we like to do with our sunday school So I just kind of gave him sunday school preference because I thought that's really going to match

His demeanor and style and preaching really well So it was kind of it was a toss -up.

It was dan or john I knew I wanted both of those guys to take the pulpit So it's just which do I give to which guy and and there's no second billing second slot billing there

Both of those are are good venues and and the sunday school though. It doesn't have a worship service before it

It's going to be very similar in style and teaching and format to what we do for a church service

Yeah, and let me just uh drew is asking the real question is will the conference be live streamed?

No, it won't because it's gonna you gotta come drew. Come on up man Drew I think I think you know what if drew if drew comes up For the conference.

I I think we can maybe do a special you know podcast Recording of the two of you on pre -millennialism, you know you explaining to him so he could come to a better theological position

You know, i'll tell you what drew you if you come up here for the conference I will promise you a meal at my house with my family

And it'll be a good meal it it will be a good meal it will have bacon in it though i'm pretty sure likely bacon

Because because we I think even my wife made a joke the last time we were up there because it was Because everything had bacon.

Jim. Jim does that because he just wants to make sure i'm not keeping kosher anymore Right. So, um, so what's he what's what's dan going to cover with this different biblical approach?

Different biblical approach what dan's going to do is is he says that there's two ways that the new testament confronts or deals with doctrinal error

One of them is the galatians approach where you just kind of come straight at it You name the error you refute it you argue against it.

You give the polemical approach the other The other approach is the colossians approach where instead of necessarily citing the error outright and giving the biblical or doctrinal reasons against it you

You teach in such a way as to show the fullness or the benefit of the blessing of what you actually have

And what the truth is in christ So in in colossians what the apostle paul does is rather than dealing with the the gnostic idea that only a few people have christ in his fullness

Paul says no all of us have christ in his fullness and here's what you have In jesus christ and and just presents the better aspect of what it is that we have in christ that the gnostics can't compete with So that's going to be his approach to dealing with the charismatic issue is to show that look it's it's not so much

Here's the charismatic claim and here's the biblical answer but the charismatics claim that they're providing you this this and this and yet In scripture and in christ and in the gift of the holy spirit

We have all of these things in greater fullness than what the charismatics are claiming that they're giving to us

Yeah and so following dan Actually the same same as on sunday following dan is john sampson

Uh, and he so you got him on a topic session six is going to be how I left the charismatic movement

Which I yeah, so Team, I think we're going to hear that theme throughout Yeah, yeah, I don't know

I don't know of anybody else there that speaking at that that wasn't once in the charismatic movement, but I was john is uniquely

Oh, were you? Okay? Yeah. Yeah, actually I Plan on I plan on sharing that uh in the beginning to explain that so yeah okay, so john was um like I said when he

When the lord saved him he was involved in charismatic theology and word of faith the new apostolic reformation stuff he was the the host of the local tbn television station there in phoenix and the lord delivered him and now he's a um

Reformed and cessationist and he's just going to talk about the scripture verses That the lord used to bring him out of the charismatic movement

And so now now we're kind of getting from the doctrinal side now to the more practical Aspect of the program so we begin a bit with the history defining it then giving history of it

Then giving them the doctrine of it answering a few doctrinal issues and now with john you kind of get into the practical thing of Here's what happened to me in the charismatic movement and here's how the lord delivered me out of it

Okay, and then you're wrapping it up with session seven on Why do we care? What are you going to cover?

yeah, so what I want to deal with in that is the negative implications of charismatic theology that The things that charismatic theology does in the lives of the children of god and people who adopt it

So for instance, I i'm firmly believe that continuationist perspective ends up undermining the sufficiency of scripture

It ends up undermining the authority of scripture and it ends up undermining our belief in the sufficiency of scripture

Um, did I say sufficiency sufficiency authority? um Yeah, and the glory of scripture.

So it has that It has a negative effect in how we view scripture also in how we view god continuationists tend to Kind of picture god as as one who is trying to get his message across trying to do miraculous things

He needs our faith. He needs our belief. He needs our obedience. He needs our our listening ear

That's kind of the approach. Uh, so I think that's a diminution of god and his glory and then what about the uh the disappointments in the lives of those who have embraced charismatic theology where you have for instance people who

Who firmly believe that god is speaking to them and giving them revelation and yet? They make actions or they make they make decisions and take action based upon what they think is the voice of god it turns out it was just a

Um food poison that they got from taco bell and they really shouldn't have made a decision like that. So Uh, you know then people are disappointed then they start to wonder

Well, did I really hear god speak and is there really a god and why didn't god heal my son? Why didn't god heal my daughter?

Why didn't god heal my husband? Why didn't god raise that person from the dead and and you see this that these are the things that just go uh unobserved on the on the on the large scale

Uh in the charismatic movement and those who watch it simply because those things are just not reported very often once in a while, you'll see something that makes the national news, but Usually if um, if somebody is healed because their leg gets lengthened by todd white, you know

That's the type of thing that you stand up and you give testimony to and your charismatic worship service but if you don't get healed and your your

Cousin dies from cancer, even though your whole church been praying for him and he doesn't get healed That's not the type of that's the type of stuff that just leads to a tragic abandoning of the faith

So I want to deal with kind of that. What what does this mean in our lives? Why why is this an issue that we're even discussing it?

Yes, it is divisive. Yes doctrine does divide but is this just an intellectual argument that we're having over words and historic doctrines or are there real world implications for This issue and I think that there are

I think that the cessationist position makes us look to god his word Trust in him.

It makes us rely upon the sufficiency of scripture. It elevates scripture It elevates the authority of scripture the uniqueness of scripture.

Whereas the continuation is position undermines all of those things Yeah, so that's what i'm dealing with in my session

Yeah, and I mean this is I I really think the sufficiency is is the the important issue that has to be

That's that's the key because I think really that is what I see going on with this movement is the fact that They're looking for something more than god's word

Yeah, it's really what it comes down to they that yeah, they're seeking for an experience They're seeking for something to validate their faith.

They're looking for something sensational something miraculous something supernatural they're in a constant quest to pursue that and Just like the eye can never be filled with seeing and the ear can never be filled with hearing the the person who seeks for signs and wonders can never be satisfied with them because Um, they're always going to be looking for something more and something more and something more and the charismatic theology

Continuationist theology does nothing but feed that insatiable quest and um and and leads people astray

I think in in the process well, that's I think that's why it gets kookier and kookier because What once oh, we got that okay, we're gonna have to do something more

I mean, I saw that when I was in college with it. It was if one person claimed he got a uh, you know

Well, one person would start speaking in tongues. Well, someone else had to have a word from the lord Well, if one person had a word from the lord someone else had to have a prophecy

It was like it was just a one upsmanship. I do have on the screen Where they could sign up for this conference?

um if you go to kootenaychurch .org slash events slash

Cessationist dash conference um We really got to get an easier Well, if you just if you just go to kootenaychurch .org

It'll be right on the front page right at the top. Um right toward the top It's not the splash thing at the very top of the page, but you'll see the conference there

It's it's featured on the front page very prominently. You can't miss it That's that's a lot simpler Yeah, um, so we do have a question.

Uh, melissa's asking uh Is logos still your sponsor?

So yes, they are and i'll put that up there right now because if you are going to um

Get logos. Jim. Did you upgrade to logos 10 yet? No well This is where you want to go to get your upgrade so you can at least get five free books from striving for eternity

Get the same 30 percent discount But you get some free books from us. You just go to Uh, it's bitly bit dot ly slash

Sfe that stands for striving for eternity logos. So bit bit dot ly slash sfe logos to get um

To make sure you can get your upgrade and get five free books from us And you know, my url was difficult kootenaychurch .org

Yeah bit .ly is very easy Forward slash whatever it was

Whatever. Yeah, that's a lot easier than no one knows how to spell kootenay in the first place

Just like it sounds k -o -o -t -e -n -a -i All right, so let's there's some questions that came in or comments that came in let me bring them up here um

Facebook user says god bless you brothers. I was just listening to you jim on podcast hebrews 12 one to three great series

But wondering now are you on sfe podcast amazing well you've been on With uh the christian podcast community for a while Yeah, that's true

So who is this anonymous facebook user? I don't know who this is. So I know who the one person is that downloads our uh, so so if you're if you're on facebook what you want to do is um

You you go to pauljectslive .com and there are instructions how to give permission for your name to show up Uh easier to remember than your url for your sfe

Logos forward slash whatever. Yeah, pauljectslive .com. Just go there Okay, so, uh ethan is says i'm glad my continuationist roommate is not here right now

He would be having a fit Uh, he's he is a sovereign grace person so pretty solid except for gifts well ethan we are welcome to have him on if he would like to come here and and Whatever questions he wants.

It's like let's discuss and let's let's not have him have a fit Where we can't see it have him have a fit right on On air.

No, uh, but I would I would love to talk with your roommate So invite him in tell him what we're we'll set up a time and and he can come in.

So Andrew I kind of feel like the continuationists who are listening to us right now are being needlessly divisive

Yes, oh so, um Yeah, and and john is saying andrew you played your video in lagos training, uh, you were in lagos 7

You played an old video. Uh, so basically what happened was john is when lagos came out people were asking for the videos

I didn't realize that I didn't put up. I only put up the second training that I did. I have two

Training sessions, I think an hour and a half each Uh on how to use lagos Uh, one

I think was lagos. Seven one was lagos eight Um, but I didn't have the lagos the first one first training, uh on the new youtube channel

So that's why that one went up recently, but uh, it was just so I can put it up there so it's there

Uh, maybe one day i'll do another one might be might be good i'm gonna bring some uh some troubled

Guys here some troublemakers in here. Uh, the guys matter of theology troubled

But yeah, chris is the troublemaker i'm not in trouble no Yes, if you listen to the show, yeah drew they're both wearing their strange fire shirts so uh

You know for that's that's did you guys got those From supporting the film.

Yes Okay, we supported the day you had them on. Yeah. Yeah, we sure did I gotta you know,

I didn't get my cup. Did you get your cups and stuff? I did We didn't I don't think we gave that much to get a cup.

We just got we just got a shirt and some stickers And I got a cup and a t -shirt, you know stickers

I'm gonna in it. So if they don't give you that stuff, I mean, that's true.

That's true to be in it You just do it for the coffee mug, that's what you really yeah, that's right

Well, you know, it's brothers, you know, it's funny. Uh the trump the troublemaker comment, uh, I thought was hilarious because uh ours was that our second episode drew reckless love reckless worship

No, it was second or third It was somewhere down there, but I mean it wasn't it wasn't that early but it was

Um, yeah, that's the one that really got us in trouble. Yeah, I mean that that that's the one that that uh,

That got us in trouble with uh with with folks at a at the church we were at Anathema at the church.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely because because we we we dealt with the issue of false worship and assigning attributes to any member of the triune godhead that aren't expressly, uh written in scripture

And I mean called yelled at cussed out called meetings with elders and cussing was happening there.

And oh, yeah Now you're you're worried about being called a troublemaker. But bill here bill here.

It says look at the new tv show the four stages So, I don't know you decide which one's going to be better or worse there so so let's now let's you know

The conference that one of the first part of the conference this show to promote the conference So people knew as you you listen to all of that I hope you guys that are watching listening realize this is not a let's attack continuationist conference

This is a we have a strong biblical stance that the certain gifts have ceased

And they're just not for today um And you know, that's going to be the case that's made

That's what the conference is about but now let's let's talk about the whole idea of the gift ceasing um

You know, I I want to ask each of you guys um You know, I I Chris and andrew do either of you come from a charismatic background?

Yes Yeah, I thought so. So so What was your background and how what was it that got you to realize

I need to get out of this? This is wrong Go ahead. I'll let you go first. All right.

Uh well, it was um I was leading music leading leading worship in churches all over the metro atlanta area and it was big into hillsong and elevation and passion and um, and uh, and and it was uh, it was a combination of a few things.

Um, Uh first you were worship leader, correct? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah Uh for I mean since the lord saved me in 2000 and I started leading music that about two years later

So, um, so yeah often mostly on but lately off for 20 years um, and uh, and so i'm reading scripture and um, and as i'm reading scripture and and Reading everything you see in the scriptures about the way that the church is supposed to be conducted um, and It's just it's just not lining up with what i'm doing it's not lining up with what i'm seeing uh, and then it was through uh, it was through I was on staff at a at a church and uh,

Uh, the pastor of the staff meeting one night Uh turned to the book of jude and took a section of a sentence way out of context and I I ended up going that's not right.

That's not what i'm, you know What i'm reading around uh, this this one section of the sentence is not what what scripture teaches

That that's not what the book of jude is about and and I had the thought i'm like well Where could I go to to see what where you know exactly what?

What what is being talked about here and it was john macarthur Uh, my my mother -in -law, um, my family my wife and her family went to grace for the first 12 years of my wife's life

And um, and so every christmas every birthday, uh, we got john macarthur books Um and strange fire was one of those books

And so after I dug into jude and listened to every sermon john ever preached on jude at the time

I picked strange fire back up and uh, it was through that book and his book on worship

Uh that the lord the lord yanked me out of that shut that down Slammed that door uh, and and I and I tried to do so gracefully, but it did not fit well with the

With the uh with the church I was at and so that that season of ministry ended is what

I was told um, so But yeah, that's that jim. That's that's exactly what's what he said to me.

He sat me down We were sitting at a panera bread. I could take you to the spot He said I think our season of ministry's come to an end

So he had a problem with that and he had a problem with the doctrine of predestination Did you explain to him well, yeah,

I think I think you you should be out of ministry I I was fighting for it.

I said I don't think that that you know, we need to break fellowship over this I think this is this this is an issue we can work through and maybe sharpen one another as long as we're both able

You know to to to talk and and to share everything but do you say now or now looking back?

Do you still think you could have done that? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not and looking back. I should have walked away

Um that there were multiple red flags where where as the lord was was was illuminating these things for me

Uh through the word and um and through faithful teachers that I should have said see you I should have stepped away and said, you know the lord's working on me and I need to figure that out before I do any more ministry and Um, but that was that was a wisdom and growing moment for me.

But uh, okay Chris what's interesting there is that it seems that you coming out of that charismatic theology and you adopting?

A cessationist perspective also at the same time you're adopting a reform perspective. Yes So you're seeing that a consistent hermeneutic there that would make you not just a stationist but also

Believe in predestination a consistent hermeneutic that would make you a pre -millennialist for instance. That's right.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more You know, it's it's a consistent hermeneutic is what is

I can it seems like jim hangs out with andrew too much because it's about pre -millennialism

But but you know, but you know what brother like going into you'll get there drew you'll get there now or in heaven either way

You're gonna get there. I have no problem being proven wrong I just want to make sure that I can that it's through the scriptures that i'm persuaded and I think jim

Will have a better chance of doing that I don't care who convinces you that we're, you know, the right position

Just just come up to the conference. We'll get you some alone time when you and jim hash through the scriptures

Leave in a biblical view if it if it was like next year I would I would be able to but because it's like such short notice

I wouldn't be able to take off work or anything. Yeah Okay. So chris the question came in from jason for you.

Where are you at now huff? We're actually we're actually searching for a church right now Uh, we're actually searching for a church right now.

So chris, where do you live? Uh, just i'm i'm north and west of atlanta All right, so i'm i'm about about an hour from praise mill, you know, you know, um

Are you where are you? Where are you at in relation to jimmy hicks's church, I have no idea who jimmy hicks is

He's the co -host of wretched radio with todd freo. He just found a solid church that had a conference.

Um with todd freo You know, I don't know last month or something like that and he's he's got a good church there foothill foothill bible church

How far are you? That that that's Okay.

Yeah, what is that? What does it call jim? Uh foothill bible church or put let me pull it up here because jimmy just texted me today something, um,

Foothills community church Okay I'll look it up. Hey chris here. Jason.

Jason cave is in ackworth. So ask him where he goes in ackworth, bro Yeah, okay. Cool. Jason. Let's connect afterwards, man

Yeah, um, hey, but you know, it's going back to your question andrew Um, you know where I ended up going next was where I met drew and that church, um is

Uh when when we started going there and and I joined up there, uh, and and ended up going on staff there um, they were

They made no qualms about it that they were not cessationists. They were continuationists, but they were reformed and as time has gone on it's

Uh, the pastor was a mark driscoll. Oh, yeah still is Oh Yeah, so, um, so but that's you know to add jim to your point, you know, they're reformed

Uh reformed hermeneutic and the cessationist hermeneutic line up because it's a proper biblical hermeneutic

So and you're getting it you're getting both from mcarthur and others in in that camp. So it makes sense true.

What was it for you? Yeah, so I was in the vineyard movement for about eight years.

Um, I was playing music on the the praise team And it was it was a whole lot of different things

That I started noticing and then when I started studying it all came together and then I left So the first thing

I started noticing was one during a church service where we were I was on stage playing guitar and there were there was just people shouting and some guys speaking in Tongues and it was just it was a distraction from worship and I go this is not the holy spirit

Because the holy spirit would never distract from from worshiping the one true god

Um, so this is not a movement of the spirit at all. This is just distraction Um, so it was there where I started to kind of open my eyes and then

I actually started studying reformed theology And then

I read I had I was I was in a bible doing my undergrad with liberty

Theological and biblical studies and I had to write a paper on the charismatic gifts and cessationism and I read strange fire

And once I did that the more I started studying the gifts and then the more I started studying reformed theology

So there's the connection again. I started noticing that the gifts actually these gifts actually have ceased

And so I started pursuing that more And then there was another instance

Where I was at a men's bible study And this guy we had broken up into small groups and this guy told me he said

You know, I just in my times with the lord are so great and he just speaks to me and I remember one day

Uh, this was with my first wife and she was just oh man She she was a piece of work and the lord spoke to me and said you need to leave your wife

What? um I don't think so, dude. That's not

That the lord wouldn't say that um And so it was it was all these things that started coming together and I was like Okay, something something's very off here.

None of this is a move of the spirit and so I actually went and uh I talked to the pastor who

I was really close with his kids and I went to Went to private christian school together and played sports together and I went and I told him

I said hey, i'm i'm leaving the church I'm going over to this other church, which was where I met chris Um, and he was very gracious about it.

He's a very gracious man. Very nice man. Um, but uh, yeah, I just The more

I studied scripture and studied the gifts Along with reformed theology and john mcarthur was a huge help in that with the strange fire book

And then I and then I started listening to justin peter's teachings as well on youtube My eyes were open to it and I go

I mean this is undeniable truth of scripture That that these things have ceased and they're just not necessary anymore, you know,

I There's someone we're going to bring in backstage and i'm just trying to look you know, there's just I have this

Feeling like I want to play an audio clip right here Was andre the one that helped you get uh the podcast back up?

Yeah, he did Don't you think you owe him a dinner for that Yeah Oh, no, he didn't

Got him, I i'm sorry matt welcome to the show Hey, how are you doing?

So we were we were uh asking folks to be praying for you and uh People were saying hey wasn't matt supposed to be here.

I said this wasn't clickbait just because we It as soon as I put the show up with justin and matt and then you called me and said uh

I don't think i'm taking the week off and then justin was like well if matt's taking the If that's not gonna be there, can

I spend some time with my wife before I go from madagascar for two weeks? so, uh, you know, but Uh, we're glad you're here.

How are you feeling? Oh tired. Um, it's been a rough week. My a lot of people don't know but my wife has a lot of medical problems and so uh

She had some issues and some stuff and it took out two of my days Just kind of tending to her a little bit and sounds more dramatic than it is

And uh not getting much sleep and I was just exhausted and I just fell asleep on the couch just now

It makes it sounds worse than it is. But uh, you're you're getting old. I mean, you know You used to have all black hair when

I first met you Well, since i've known you it's definitely gotten. Yeah Well, I can understand because I do things like this matt

I just I mean just I I just want to share this matt just so you're making me covet, you know I mean just just take a take a look at that beautiful monitor matt

Yes, I I realize that but I only have four 27 inch, uh 4k monitors so yeah

As nice as this one i'm just saying no so, um So so let's you know, let's get back to you know, matt.

I we kind of covered. Um You know how we originally were trying to put this together

You felt that it was divisive for us having the conference. I know you were sleeping when we were discussing what the conference was about but you and I talked about it privately and um, but I want to give you a chance to to you know, give your your thoughts why you thought it was divisive, but you know, and then

You know what we're trying to do at the conference as you and I talked about on the phone was This is trying to make a positive

Argument for the doctrine that the gifts have ceased. It's not trying to You know debate them and whatnot.

So so I want to give you a chance to you know To voice your side Yeah, we talked about that and I quickly realized that you guys weren't doing that it was just me projecting a little bit

Um, I think you know rough few days and stuff like that. Of course, you wouldn't be doing something like that And so no big deal, but I will say that it's a sensitive issue with me

Historically because I lost my pastorate over the issue of the charismatic. Yes and so It's you know, it's whatever it's past Maybe maybe share because that that is it was an interesting thing.

I mean you because you were a pastor at a presbyterian church Mm -hmm Uh, and and basically they removed you because you believe that the gifts continued, right?

And before I comment, who are these guys? I just want to see who these guys are.

Okay, so Jim osmond Is up he raised his hand there. Jim is jim is so so you get the context.

That's josh's pastor right there So oh Jim, so you're the guy he's been saying all that stuff about yeah.

Yeah Um, oh, that's really nice. Nice to meet you. Josh is a that's a great guy and I told him today

Actually, I gotta tell you this, uh andrew Really quick story a couple of years ago.

We're trying to decide who to get to hire to do my website Yeah, I know I was I was on the board back then remember

Yeah, well, there's another story all together and uh so anyway, uh, they

I took the recommendation of of Of andrew and some other people I wanted to go someplace else and I took their advice

You know, it's counsel of wisdom and many and so I said i'm going to go this way and I did I'm, so glad because josh has it turned out.

I told him today Josh has turned out to be such an incredible asset Uh with the ministry his humility his service

And I told him today. He said I just want to thank you. You know, I just really appreciate you He's a great guy.

So he is he's an amazing guy. He is Yeah, he is. He's a great guy and praise god

Yeah So, uh, so jim just cover your ears while I say the next part

But but matt jim is jim is basically I would argue one of the best preachers in the world

I I put him up there as Macarthur level or probably better Keep in mind that andrew's world is very small

And he's not intelligent so this is really Well, andrew if you remember

About a month or so ago on facebook. I put who I thought were the top five Expositors and jim was up there.

Yeah. Wow. Yep. Well, thank you gentlemen. I appreciate I didn't see that list but I I know I wasn't on it, but uh chris huff is on the is on the lower part with you and then uh drew up there is they're from the matter of theology podcast, which is

A part of the christian podcast community of which actually all of us have a podcast on the christian podcast community

So if folks want to check out all the pod, let's go to christianpodcastcommunity .org Yeah, matt the last time chris and I were on with you was when you actually bought andrew dinner

We were yeah, wasn't that awesome? That was amazing The reason

I played that clip is because just before I brought matt in I get a text message Why do

I feel like sending sushi to you? But but matt

I gotta tell you Yesterday, I think it was yesterday. I sent someone to the karm website um, so my my kids are in daycare and it's uh

This christian owned daycare and I went to go pick them up and one of the ladies that was picking up her kids Was a seventh day advantist and and the guy who was there didn't know what that was

And so I put my kids in the car. I saw her leave I went in I said I wrote down karm .org.

I said here go here type in seventh day advantist. You're welcome Yeah, awesome

Person in uh Kofi pastor kofi and the vincent was here, but I don't see him in now.

I was going to bring him in So kofi is not with the christian podcast community. What's up?

Oh He said he filled out the application. He just never hit send. I don't know but he's

He is with the deep dive discipleship podcast so Welcome kofi.

So this way. Oh, this this works out. Well matt is in the bottom center with you know Five guys around them that all have a biblical position and so So matt's surrounded by the truth here

Good. I always like that. Always. I'm really glad you're here matt because it takes the pressure off me being a post -millennial

You're a Post -millennialist. Yeah, I I look at post -millennialism as positive

Amillennialism and i'm a pessimistic on millennialist. I teach Deprescotology. Okay. Well all millennialism is just post -millennialism anyway, because Even though you believe you're you know, the millennium is figurative jesus returns after it so We should have a discussion

I'd like to talk to you about it not to challenge you say you're a slime dog It's like I want to hear the other side

I just you know, i'm always open well me and jim have had that conversation More too.

So and anyways, I think you were close to to coming to light there, you know You're close

But i'm an all -millennialist who believes in the rapture and that the wicked are taken first Yeah So it's funny we were talking to paul met when he said we were alive and remained coming of the lord

Yeah, that's the wicked who are taken and even in matthew 13 30 the first ones taken are the are the uh, the wicked

That's right. Andrew and I were talking about that. Yeah, we were just talking about it before we went live And that's when the nephilim come in and no i'm kidding

All right So, uh kofi, do you have any questions for us tonight or did you want to jump in on the discussion of the cessation of gifts?

No, just um, well first of all i'm super bummed I can't make the conference um

Yeah Yeah, I kind of maxed out all my travels to the year if I traveled anymore my wife will kill me so The solution is you take your wife and son with you to this one ain't gonna happen

I can tell you that now Um, but two bulletin points,

I think it's gonna be a great event Um, and yeah, I don't want to chime in real briefly just as somebody who's been on both sides of that spectrum um second generation pentecostal and then

Became reformed in my theology and adopted cessationism um I I've often said that I always struggle with that term cessationism just because of how negative it is um

That really wasn't what did it for me being kind of moving to the position I grew up with To where i'm at now, but unfortunately when we kind of discuss this subject that's the term that gets used and I think it

Colors the discussion before we've even been able to have Um, which is why i'm glad to hear that there'll be some discussion on the positive aspect and not just focusing on This is what doesn't happen

Instead we're going to talk about what does happen And the true ministry of the spirit, which I think is a good way to approach it

Kind of lay out the material and then let those who are there examine it from an open bible. So super excited to hear that So, uh matt just so you know, we got melissa lex from the uh,

Uh thoroughly equipped podcast is saying praying for your wife. Mr. Slick. Thank you. She does an appeal to mr.

Slick, please Please I guess she's speaking into using the speech because it's right spelled

Please write something on the air emmagram, uh when you get back um, which emmagram what kind of a context oh that is a um, and I think justin did a uh conference on on that Um, i'll send that to you matt so you can it's on agtv too.

I believe yes it is I'm, actually thinking about starting a section on uh aliens and ufos Because you like that stuff

It's true I do I love sci -fi i've written a sci -fi novel But I think it's it's potentially very important for what may or may not happen in the church because of some stuff

That's another topic altogether. I've been researching it for 30 years and uh stuff so That's actually really interesting because uh when

I was in the vineyard movement one of the One of the big movies that was pushed at the time was a documentary called furious love

Um, which has uh, robbie dawkins in it and a guy by the name of jason westerhouse and Jason westerhouse was one of the first guys to graduate from the bethel school of supernatural ministry.

Oh, then he's quite qualified He's be good. Yeah to contact ufos. Well, one of the things that happened was he ended up actually getting into the idea of uh

Like dimension travel through the mind and talking about aliens and things like that That's what he ended up getting into If you guys want, uh,

I was involved in the occult for years and i've seen things in certain manifestations Ufos are definitely occult.

It means why you believe the gifts continue that explains it Yeah God redeemed me out of uh, all that paganism and that filth that I was in But yeah

But it you know, so so I mean that is something that I think you you acknowledge right is that There is some of the same behaviors, you know, the

The the speaking in tongues the I mean mormons were doing it um You see it very common in you know, uh hinduism

With the the same kind of behaviors that we see with some of the charismatic groups now there's and this is something you can speak to as well is

You believe the gifts continue Yet you have a ministry where you have criticized a lot of What really is?

the charismatic movement as a whole the the broader charismatic movement, so You're not someone who just says well if they believe tongues continue it just continue then i'm it all in with them you

You're drawing some lines. So maybe explain what your view is And where you draw a line with some of this stuff?

Yeah, I uh exegetically i'm convinced the continuation of the gifts and experientially also i've got stories and got things that uh, as a man of god, um

Dare I say i'm a man of god. I don't see how they could be explained Uh from a cessationist world view not that i make doctrine out of experience that's secondary

But having grown up and been involved in the occult and seen manifestations and seen stuff I know that the spiritual side of things is real

But that's not why I believe in the gifts. I believe in the gifts because of scripture and that's my opinion on what the scripture says and so, uh,

I think there's a lot of moron wackos out there who you know speak in tongues and Tell jokes in tongues and the stupidity and the idiocy and god told me like I overheard you say earlier

To divorce my wife, you know just stupidity And uh, a lot of that goes in there, but I got to be careful what's called the genetic fallacy

Uh, they're doing something bad. So therefore it's bad Uh what they teach is bad and that's not it

It's what what the scripture says and I commit everything to scripture everything to scripture And so, uh,

I believe all the charismatic gifts are for today that are accessible in the body of christ as a whole I don't believe in the office of Healer office of apostle office of prophet and things like that Which a lot of charismatics want to claim for themselves

Or rather just give them a celestial groin kick and say let's talk scripture But so god can certainly do anything he wants today

How's people to speak in tongues, there's a book called bruchka where this is documented i've prophesied

To have words of knowledge Again, not that that makes something true But i've got documentation with john knox george wisher john fleming

Uh, they're moving up movement of the gifts and someone turned me on to something about a research done charismatic gifts done throughout history

Which I got a it's another topic. But anyway, it's for me. It's exegetical and I don't believe Uh that most of what

I see and have seen is biblical. I think it's just fake and and stupidity mostly

So melissa is asking you matt matt Would matt be considered a cautious continuationist?

I'm a cautious continuationist. I'd like to say i'm an experiential calvinist So so here's an interesting thing matt, you know cautious causationist,

I like that well, that's uh that's come was it was it uh piper that Kind of started that that term

As or at least that's first that I had heard. So so here's an interesting thing matt, you know so in my talk that that, you know,

I i'm assigned for for the conference is looking through the the the bible at all the miracles and this may surprise folks, but just looking at you know and matt you and I talked about this because I showed you some of this in lagos how to find this but there's there's

There's about 200. There's 265 miracles In the bible, that's it 104 of them are from Was where jesus did it and jesus was doing that to to show his deity put his deity on display

God and the holy spirit make up 74 or 75 of of the miracles so right there you're at like almost 180 of the 264

So miracles are not something That we we see a lot in scripture.

In fact, you know, um, and this is some of the stuff i'm going to present at the at the conference, but you know, just i'm gonna i'll run this by you and and see

What you guys think and jim will get a a little bit of a foretaste of what i'm going to be talking about but Um, and this is just i'm an engineer by trade so forgive me, but this is how my mind thinks but but you're looking at at what

I have here is you know, I've I listed and jim can't see this on his phone, but it'll be way too small, but What I did here was list all of the miracles in the bible

And and group them and start putting charts to them. So what you're seeing in that first chart is all the miracles

Uh in the bible altogether and and who the agents are But then once you remove the

You know just using human agents And you see that 34 % of all the miracles were moses 25 % of all the mirror of the of all the miracles was elijah

Elisha, but once you put it into the time period of moses. Aaron Joshua and elijah elisha.

That's this third chart and you end up seeing that Moses aaron and Uh, jake and joshua make up almost half of all the miracles that we see in the scripture

And elijah and elisha make up another 30 35 of that so that I mean that's almost 85 are just those two and so, you know, then

I grouped them by book And and so if let me show that like this is this is now grouped by book

And what you end up seeing and you know, I tried to group it with by different different folks here, but if we

Like What I want to do with this one is show that if you look this is This is a timeline.

So what I did was go throughout time starting with creation with all of the miracles And if you look at the second chart, which is the the ones by human agents because that's what we're talking about miracles done by human beings

And you you end up seeing there's only four time periods These are grouped in in in 250 year segments

There's only four time periods out of all of the the scripture That we have where we see human agents doing miracles

And if you go by book of the bible And this is this is every book of the bible right there where you have miracles

Just miracles, but once you say well, let's limit it to human agents It's very little it's exodus it's numbers it basically it's all the the time of moses and and Moses through joshua there at the beginning and then elijah and elisha and then you see acts

So you have exodus second kings and acts And and the the thing that I would say

With the with this though My position is what is what is unique about those three time periods?

Moses You have the writing of scripture Elijah and elisha after that you have all the prophets writing scripture acts.

You have the the apostles writing scripture I think the the case can very easily be made that the purpose of the miracles

Being that we see them the numbers of them Appearing is because it was associated with the writing of scripture

Now we see a bulk of miracles in the gospels with jesus because he has a different purpose he's displaying his deity but The miracles have a purpose and I think the purpose in in this case we would see

Is that they all precede the writing of scripture and and so my argument would be That we wouldn't need these gifts anymore

Because we don't have the continuation of scripture. We have a closed canon um And I would also

I you know, I would support that scripturally with with two examples one you have um, timothy in second timothy 523

Very well known where paul tells timothy to drink some wine for his stomach's sake because of the fact that he's

You know, he was having dysentery. He didn't say to he didn't try to heal him but even more so epaphroditus in philippians 2 25 to 30 because Here paul is saying here's someone who was near death

And was helpful to him and paul never healed him paul just you know

Prayed hoped he would get better, but he sends sends epaphroditus back, but you don't see him healing

And I would argue that that showed that these gifts were now now that the scripture is being written Those gifts didn't continue

So that that would be the the way that I would end up seeing this man, so what's your view?

Well, it's a view jesus couldn't do any miracles because of people's lack of faith and uh Miracles are tied to the writing of scripture

But not in all places because there are other scriptures that were written in the minor prophets You don't see a whole bunch of miracles.

I don't think it's a consistent argument, but I think it's an interesting argument I do think that the charismatic movement

Of the charisma in the context of the development of the scriptures, I think is very important and um

That it's very consistent with that. I don't have a problem with that at all. I think it's a good observation We're seeing kofi's little uh son there popping into the camera

He's going to take all you you just you see a two -year -old to get his face in camera

And it just takes all the distr - like everyone gets is going to be distracted with that Yeah, see melissa's saying

I see a kid. I see a kid So Yeah, i mean jim you're muted buddy.

You're muted Can I ask a question of matt? You just did sure

Yeah, so that's true. Can I ask another question then? um The the you said you believe that all the gifts are available within the body of the church

Yes, but you don't believe that there are miracle workers, correct? Not in a sense.

They have an office of of it Okay, do you believe that there was an office of miracle workers in the new testament?

I I don't really think there was I think it's an apostolic issue. The apostles had certain characteristics

Of being able to do certain things and they had let's just say and there's some ambiguity here, but they're they had the ability to impart certain

Spiritual aspects of of miracles works and things like that according to their authority out of matthew 10

But that wasn't with the regular people in the church So you'd say only the apostles did miracles?

No Okay, but they would impart the ability to do miracles to others like say barnabas uh philip

No, I don't believe in apostolic succession. That's a roman catholic idea like that So when you when you said that they had the ability or authority to impart spiritual gifts what i'm

Oh, I didn't mean i'm not trying to contradict you. I'm just trying to get clarification actually I'm just trying to know what you're saying

Yeah, I didn't mean in part as in give to someone else like an you know, you can do miracles

I meant to be able to work those gifts by their yeah, so I should have chosen a better word. Thank you Okay, so the apostles could do miracles

More or less on command. Yes So is your view then that people today can do miracles that don't have an office or that miracles just happen apart from Any but any particular person no, they can happen through a person and and by if god wants to To do something outside of of an individual.

That's fine, too yeah, and so i'm i'm a Continuationist in the sense that I believe that god can do miraculous things today.

I don't believe that those have ceased So the What type of miracles do you think are done today through people?

Uh, I think the charismatic gifts including the speaking of tongues prophecy healings can can occur to people today who are christians but I will say

I believe that primarily the context of their usage is in the the furthering of the gospel not the grandiose

Idiotic display on churches where these people do this stupidity

Do you make a distinction between? offices and spiritual gifts in the sense that um

For instance if if I were to use if i'll give you a i'll give you a a cessationist argument

That I think you will I think you will refute because you make a distinction here as a cessationist. I would say that if you

If you deny that the gift of apostle Continues today or the gift of prophet in the sense that the new testament had prophets or the gift of revelation

If you deny that those continue today as they did in the first century wouldn't you be then by default a cessationist to some degree

Always we have to define our terms first And so, you know, what's a cessationist or degrees of cessationist?

so I believe that the charismatic all the charismatic gifts are for the church because in part the typological representation of the of abraham offering isaac which represents the true gospel in jesus christ and afterwards

The gifts were given to the bride 10 gifts and one of the charismatic gifts that were given ultimately representative to us now is that of eternal life

There's nine charismatic gifts in first corinthians 12 10 uh, excuse me first corinthians 12 14 romans, uh, 12,

I believe it is and there's nine charismatic plus the charismatic gift of uh, of uh

Roman 623 the chrisma eternal life Eternal gift so I believe that In that context that they're permanent for the church for the covenant period that we are given as the bride of christ

And that we can operate in them, but not normatively speaking. I can demand I can do this I can do that and uh,

No one has an office. I don't believe anyone has a particular office So I my cessationism would be defined as all the gifts are available, but not necessarily on demand

They're at the purview and sovereignty of god as he wills to expand his kingdom and glorify himself

And so so one thing matt, you know, and I know the answer to this because I remember when you and I were sitting having this discussion with uh with ken cook and he was very upset with us because he wanted to say something and we both ended up saying it before him, but you would not believe that These these gifts and these miracles would be normative for today correct

Depending what you mean by normative, but in a generic sense, I would agree Yeah, yeah Yeah, I but I wonder

I can't help but wonder from my position If we miss out on a lot because we're so doctrinally minded that we miss the the things of god and i'm not saying doctrine

Is bad you guys you know, if you know me, you know, I really defend the faith, but I just sometimes wonder about that That's all just a consideration

So do you believe that the gifts today function the exact same way that they did during the new testament era during the first Say 30 35 years of the church.

I don't know how is it identical? I can't say because I don't know exactly how they operated back then

Do you believe that what we have in the book of acts is sufficient to tell us how they operated back then?

It certainly would give us a good guide. Absolutely not exhaustively, but sufficiently

Because when I look at when I look at the experience and I don't know you i've never had a conversation with you so I don't know what your experience has been that you you would say is cannot be explained in a sensationalist worldview, but When I look at what typically passes for the experiences of people who say the gifts continue

That they would point to as evidence that these gifts continue I don't see them looking anything like what

I see the miracles looking like in the early years of the new testament church Or what

I see described in the gospels of the book of acts there. They seem to be completely different. I mean somebody's saying that Um, you know somebody's saying well,

I just felt the lord telling me to go take cookies to my neighbor And so I went over there and she was really had a down day and My cookies ended up encouraging her that must have been the voice of the lord.

So that's the prophetic gift That seems an entire something of an entirely different nature than Revelation the apostle paul having a visitation from jesus where jesus appears to him and says hey do not

Do not uh be discouraged. I still have many more people in this city when he has a vision about the city of corn those are two totally different kinds of revelation and yet What I the only people who seem to make the claims of having the type type of Experiences that we see in acts are the people that you and I would both agree are the wingnuts and the charlatans

How about this though, let me offer you something I hope you would believe me that I i'm a man of integrity not perfect by any means we won't get my wife involved to correct me, but Because you know, you know how wives are you know, it's yeah, she knows she knows you she knows me that's right so years ago before I was married, but uh,

I was at a bible study and I took this girl home just uh, Hey, you know, i'll give you a ride home and on the way home.

She said i'm thinking about this one book Oh, i've got that book. Hey, let me you know, we'll stop by my place

And so I remember standing there. Uh, i've been married 34 years. So this is probably 36 37 38.

I don't know Years ago, I remember very clearly. I'm almost 66 incidentally, so i'm i'm up there

But I remember standing there and her name was tony and she said In two weeks, she was going to go to australia for a mission.

I said really I didn't know about this She goes. Oh, yeah, it's all planned out. I'm going and I still remember this very clearly all of a sudden

There was this has happened twice in two different situations Just all of a sudden I said you're not going to do your mission.

You're not going you're not going to do your mission You're going to stay in two weeks. I mean in five excuse me in five months

Uh, you're going to meet a guy and he's going to become your spiritual leader And in 18 months you and he are going to have a special bond and you could do mission work together and then all of a sudden this presence was gone and I was like What?

Was that? And i've had something this happened before another time. I could tell you I it really bothered me

It's like what was that and I knew it? And so I thought okay, that's bad pizza or something.

I got called into the assistant pastor's office And he said what did you say to her? She's really upset I did

You know, sorry and uh two weeks later she gets on a plane. She goes to australia.

Okay. Well, i'm a false prophet And the next day there's a phone call and somebody says did you hear that?

Tony's back? I said what did she go? She's back What do you mean she's back? She got off the tarmac in australia and she realized she wasn't supposed to be there.

She came back And I said, uh, oh Five months later. She met a guy He became her spiritual leader

They got married at 18 months later. They went to england did a mission work I still remember where I was sitting when she came to me and said everything you prophesied came to pass so so here here's the thing with that man, and then we've

I know you and I've talked about this by the way bill bill is really trying to Flatter you.

He says 65 I I thought I was thinking you look more like 72, but Well, it's a buddhist.

I mean, I always wonder what that I think it's a kind of fungus It's either that or the excrement from a paramecium, but i'm not sure

So so here's here's the thing that you know When you when I first when you first told me that story you you had told me that you had met her

I think I think she might have had a little girl with her a daughter Or something, but you had told me that you didn't remember.

She she told you about it and had when you first told me you said that you had seen her and She told you about it and you had forgotten that this happened

No, no, i've always remembered it. Okay. Yeah. Well along with the other thing that happened at a swap meet ministry

Well that I know you didn't remember at the time because I was there when you went. Oh, that's right

No, no. No, there was an aspect. I did not remember my friend. Dave says because he said

The context of that was someone came up And I had a swap meet ministry for two and a half years and uh

A guy come up and he started talking to me and all I can do is call it a word of knowledge I don't seek this stuff

And uh, I told him what his problem was with the lord and how he had known what the lord wanted for him

And and you know, whatever But I told him very specifically very detailed what it was and I remember the his facial expression.

He was dead on shocked He was shocked at what I was saying he literally stumbled backwards he couldn't believe what

I was saying and I knew it was right and uh And then he walked away and I I remember it very profoundly.

Well, that's not a big deal Maybe I was a good body language reader. Who knows but my roommate dave

Said that he was sitting there And he said he saw and you guys can do what you want with it

But he saw what looked like the heat off of uh, the road when you look down you see it rippling

Yeah, he said he saw that around me during that period of time. I'm like Dave would be a cessationist.

Okay. I don't know if he is or not But I I well he was he when we had that discussion. He he he had said that so um, but he said that's the context so I would say with that is

I mean You know, I know that you and I had a show years ago. We did and you said she didn't make it all the way to Australia she made it to the uk and turned around So no, no, no.

No, I know the story very well told it a thousand times And I should go I should I could go back on the old show

No, she went to the uk after she got married with her new husband and they did mission work so here here'd be a thing that I I would say because you're saying because you're basically asking what do we do with it, right?

And so it's just I don't say it's proof of anything. No, but I would I would say this is a couple things I mean one granted as i've shared with you, right?

I can't exegete your experience, right? You know your experience doesn't and and I know you you would say you'd agree but the the thing

I would say is that You know all of us have Thanks to the curse of sin a faulty memory and and there are details and I've you know

This is not a faulty memory. I'll tell you right now. I remembered very clearly Just like I remember the voice of god speaking to me and where I was

When I heard him ask me two questions in my heart And then two Then a few years later something else had happened.

I've had definite experience of this stuff And I remember it very clearly because when these things happen, they are so profound you remember them

Just like I remember june 19th 1976 Driving off a cliff in turnbull canyon, whittier, california took me two years to recover from that accident.

I remember details Yeah, but the the fact is at you know

We know That there's people who can plant memories, right So so we can remember things that didn't actually happen

I mean, this is that's you know that could be done I mean people that do the the the

You know, what is the cold hypnosis or whatever they call it where they just they get certain details tie a memory to A false memory to sun that's a true memory.

And so when you say well, what what do we do with it? I I go well I you know

There's nothing that I can go to and say that this is what actually happened other than your word

Yep, I remember it and uh, that's what happened And i've told the story, uh,

I told it in seminary with some people and the same story I remember where tony was standing. I remember the bookcase behind her

I remember, uh being called into the pastor's assistant pastor's office. I remember the discussion.

I remember the phone call that came back She's back. I remember five months later. She met a guy.

I remember her telling me that it all happened She was a short girl blonde hair blue eyes, and her name was tony

But but yet I mean even even ethan Had pointed out. Yeah, the story has changed over time

I don't think you you notice that though Okay, so here's what's happening i'm telling you what happened and because of your exegetical

Position you have to now attack you as and me as unreliable i'm telling you what it is

I have I have a question. Hold on I have a question. I have a question, but it doesn't work.

Here's here's my question matt and and and brother i've i've i've been Uh, i've taken some mission trips that uh and and seen some things uh

On the mission field and heard about some things happening on the mission field when when I was there that will that just just you know, wow, you can't explain it, but But I guess from from From a professing believer in the lord jesus christ and someone who who would

Would be a leader it leads a ministry Um as a husband leads it leads a wife leads a child um, you know when it comes to When it comes to the continuationist position and being able to validate these things all it does is offer up confusion

To where we can go to scripture and we can trust in what scripture says we can verify scripture with scripture

And so the continuationist position ultimately It just muddies the waters as far as sola scriptura if we're honest and and we go to that logical conclusion

Now this story that you're telling it very well may have happened just as you said it did again I like jim.

I don't know you you don't know me but but when we when we Do not say definitively

This is what the scriptures teach When when we see in scripture that those gifts cease um, and then and and then when we when we try to interpret some sort of interpretation or feeling that we may have

You see how it just it there's no way to verify that And and and there's no way it it in my opinion

And and I know my opinion is shared by as far as exegetical framework Like you just said to andrew my opinion is shared by a lot that that that being open to this stuff

It ultimately takes away from sola scriptura It ultimately takes away from the glory of god and the inerrancy infallibility insufficiency of scripture

How does it do that? Because you know if we've received any kind of extra words of knowledge, that means that god is still speaking when when

That's not true So in first corinthians 14 they're speaking in words of knowledge words of wisdom and it wasn't to be in scripturated was it

Sorry, say that one more time In first corinthians 14, there's recordings Not of what happened

But what if any of you speak in tongue have a word have a knowledge interpretation of tongues of prophecy? These things are going on in the first corinthian church.

Did that threaten the canon at all? That threatened the canon.

Yeah, the fact that these charismatic gifts were occurring in first corinthians church Does that threaten the canon at all?

No Then why are you saying that it threatens the canon now if the same thing's happening? It validated the canon

Well, hold on. It did not validate the canon. They were doing these things read first corinthians 14 So why would?

Seriously, why would and while you're doing that if you want to read first corinthians 14, which which verses assume?

first corinthians 14 If I would I would ask you to do this to try this

Go to print out first corinthians 12 13 14 Just print them out put them in a word processor

Assume cessationism no charismatic gifts nothing Then go in and then cross out the verses that no longer apply if that position is no, no, no

No, that's that's i'm not reading my framework into the scriptures. It's not a strongman gathering

I'm gathering my framework. You actually scriptures you actually just we're not saying we're not saying Right, right so you actually

Out of the charismatic movement matt. I don't know if you realized it, but that's that's what I actually time

Please or i'm gonna leave I was in the charismatic movement And heard someone say that the gift ceased and I was like what?

All I did was read first corinthians 12 13 14 in one sitting With with saying, okay

What does it say and I ended up realizing in context? I think that much of what paul's dealing with is much what we see in many of the churches today

I think I think you may actually agree with me on this but that paul's criticizing them for behaviors that We end up seeing in churches today.

I mean there's I think paul's criticizing a lot of the um, Spiritual pride well, hold on.

Let's let's back and focus The accusation was that it it uh

How does it not offer confusion? Yeah, um regarding sola scriptura if we're honest

So let me ask you are you saying i'm not honest No, I don't think anyone was saying that no not because uh, what's his name chris

So now look here's this is important That you brought up the issue of integrity and honesty regarding the solar scriptura

Based on my position. How can I be honest and hold that position? Because it's gonna threaten the canon

Do you think i've not thought of this a thousand times over the years? Of course? There was no accusation brother.

I'm just asking i'm just putting the question before you There's no accusation Because I I don't know you

I I and and you don't know me now now I don't so I can't I can't say that and wouldn't wouldn't dare to i'm just putting the question out there

Yeah, but when you say that's just going to point us out If we're honest then that the implication is the contrary then if i'm not honest then it would not

Threaten the canon See the thing that's happening

You got to understand we have emotional baggage that we carry with certain positions and we're going to walk into a subject and a topic with that carried

Because I've lost my password over this issue because i've suffered through the years because of it

I've had to learn how to deal with people who are antagonistic without getting emotional without getting reactionary

And so when someone says to me and I'll admit I don't have it perfectly done if you're honest then this and this

What do you mean now? It's an address of my character I am very honest and I do believe in this perspicuity and sufficiency of scripture

But in first corinthians 14 the charismatic gifts were returning and there was no threat to the canon there So why would it and you need to make the case?

Why would there be such that the charismatic gifts now would be a threat to the canon? Why would that be any different?

If we're honest well, and I kind of answered it for for chrysalis from my position, which would be

You know, I think that the gifts were to vindicate the new writing of scripture. So I I would actually so I would say that those gifts

Those miracles would would coincide with the new writing of scripture And therefore it's they they support the canon of scripture because they're they're vindicating the new writing of scripture

But yeah, but that's an assumption you've made that that's the purpose of them actually what we see in the charismatic gift movement in the charismatic stuff because the gift of the holy spirit is speaking in tongues in the charismatic movement out of acts chapter 1 verse, uh 238 and also at acts 10 for Xm 44 to 48

So we see that it's the furthering of the gospel and this is where it comes in If you were to do some study you'll find out throughout history

That there are times when these things work as the gospel is furthered. I can read to you right now john knox prophesying

Documented would you guys allow john knox to preach in your church if He prophesies and it's documented in the scott's worthies and I tell you the book the page everything or george wishart or john fleming

You guys look Are the gifts done? Show me from scripture that they're done and then we can look at the other things show me in scripture where they're done

Show me first corinthians 13 8 to 13 They're finished uh where there's prophecy they'll cease where there's tongues they they will be

Uh done away where there is where there's knowledge they will cease, okay I agree.

That's that's that's true. Uh -huh So show me where they have ceased Well, I would there it's a future tense

I would say that that is it's a future tense to the time of paul's writing of scripture

That I would say is the canon because the thing that is the perfect there The teleos the word which is the word perfect there is tied

To the partial which is the knowledge and the prophecy so knowledge and prophecy are partial

And if if the prophecy as we see he uses it elsewhere in the next chapter

I believe where he says he'd rather have uh Speak, you know One profits one prophecy versus a thousand tongues or whatever the numbers are.

Um that's That would be what we'd have is as revelatory a revelatory prophecy it's not preaching

That like waypeel will say prophecy is preaching. Well, he's using it in in a revelatory way.

So if if that is revelation Then the completion would be the completion of revelation

And therefore those those would cease. Okay, let me address that but first I need to apologize to chris

Chris I got angry at you and I just apologize flat out This is a it's so deep to me and it wounded me so much when

I was younger I thought I was basically over it. I just want to honestly just apologize. I actually got

I got upset with you and I shouldn't have I understand that brother. I've got that baggage too with certain things. I get it

Okay, so good All right. Well man hug while we're hitting each other. Hey, that's good All right

I think a lot of folks don't know about you matt because I mean I I get to see you in different settings um

You you are Someone who really wants to serve your your lord

And you don't you're not a person who cares So much about the way people look at you as fence of like, oh,

I might look, you know If I apologize it it makes me look bad or something. That is who you are.

Yeah Um because you know, and I just I just want peal to realize you know, it's

So so anyway, so yeah first failure on my part So it was and I shouldn't anyway

It cost you guys don't know it cost me a great great great deal And it really did it hurt. I could tell you the story, but uh, it was very costly

In fact, it was so costly. It was so painful That i'll give you a comparison I buried my son

And I carried his body to the grave. He died in my arms After he was born and I don't remember people who were there

During all this time because it's trauma The same traumatic effect was with this pastorate issue the cross -examination

I don't remember people who were there. I look at them as equally not quite but traumatic

And so there's still some baggage there Most is saying that was mad

Yeah, that's about as that's about as mad as he gets. No, it's I mean This is one of the reasons that you know,

I I you know, I do know you get emotional with this Because I know what it would it cost you um

Yeah, and that's what makes it hard for you know for some of the discussion I get that and you know so But anyway exegetically, all right

Yeah, I see the antecedent of when the perfect comes atelios The partial when it arrives the partial will be done away

How's a child used to speak as a child think as a child reason like a child so verse 11 is uh kind of parenthetic

Verse 12 says for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then so the antecedent of then is when the perfect comes

That's what the antecedent is And it says now I know in part but then uh, no, just as i've been fully known

So the word then there the antecedent goes back to the perfect the question then becomes what is the perfect?

Is it the return of christ or is it the uh, the completion of the canon? I would hold that it's return of christ because of first corinthians 1 7

Where it says that you're not to lack any charisma while you're waiting for the apocalypsis Lord jesus christ now that is to the entire church because first corinthians 1 and 2

Says to everyone everywhere who calls upon the name of the lord. Jesus. That's first corinthians 1 2

So it's a universal declaration and admonition He says you're not to lack any charismatic gift while you're waiting for the return of christ

And so if the perfect here in my opinion, this is my exegetical opinion Is that the perfect is referring to the return of christ?

Absolutely. These gifts are going to cease because you don't need it But if it means the bible Then when the bible comes is when we see face to face

But that's not how the term is used face to face has occurred 11 times in the scriptures And it's always a personal encounter

And then when it says I will know as i've been fully known And I it's going quickly because you guys are smart.

I know you know all this stuff I hope you do but uh, we're only known by god and I can go to uh, john 5

I should be john 10 27 28, uh galatians 4 8 9 Matthew 7 22 and 23 where god's where it says

I don't know you But i'm but god knows you so the phraseology of who's known if you're known by god, you're saved

You're not known by god. You're not saved. So he says I I can give a study on that uh, then now

I know in part, but then I will know just as I have been fully known. That's a salvific gnosco

And that god knows you this is in regard in my opinion exegetically to the return of christ

That's when the fullness of all this will occur not just with the completion of the canon. That's my exegetical, uh thing

I've heard counter arguments. I'm not convinced by them and so the rest on my exegesis if i'm wrong i'm wrong

But that's where i'm in. That's why and so this I I would I would turn to proverbs uh a couple things proverbs 27 19, which esv translates as As in water face reflects face so the heart of man reflects the man that Phrasing face face is the same way that it's that it's translated elsewhere

So when you say there's nowhere where face to face is always a personal encounter proverbs 27 19

Is same phraseology? And yet it's clearly not a face -to -face encounter, which

I think is the same thing that we'd have in first corinthians 13 Because the comparison there is looking in a mirror which would be a polished polished metal versus looking face to face

It's the idea of being able to see clearly versus dimly which is the whole idea

I I would argue that what you have in uh versus uh 10 and following there are three illustrations of something coming to completion, which is what teleos means

Right to complete to mature to be made perfect so When you have the canon of scripture

That is completed Okay then that's what

I think it's describing something that's partial now the the I would argue that the The direct context the immediate context of first corinthians chapter 13 there it says

Uh verse eight As for prophecy, they will pass away as for tongues. They will cease as for knowledge

It'll pass away for we know in part and prophesy in part But when the perfect comes the partial passes away

So verses nine is what's what answers what the the perfect is? It's the completion of the prophecy and the knowledge because that's what it is make that's what's partial

That's what's being made complete So I would I would then say how does that?

How would that the second coming make that? prophecy and and knowledge complete

The other thing is of to first corinthians 1 7 passage You're right that it says that there's the church doesn't lack anything until the second coming and that word

That you've brought out before is charisma the charismatic gift So we would say that the church isn't lacking any charismatic gifts or charismatic until the second coming

But I would say that the the word for lack requires a need So if we if it is if these gifts are for the purpose of scripture

Right, they're revelatory gifts. Then once the canon's complete. We don't need them. The church doesn't need them

And therefore there is no lack of them Because lack requires a need Well the question

I would ask along the lines of first corinthians 13 8 where andrew just was Talking about prophecy and knowledge that are going to pass away prophecy of What or of who and knowledge of what and of who and if if we have the completion of scripture

Which tells us everything we need to know of christ and his gospel What else what other prophecy and knowledge do we need outside of that?

I'm, not sure I understand the question. Could you say it again? So if if If the perfect that's coming that we're waiting for prophecy and knowledge to pass away if that's jesus but Like what other prophecy do we need?

If prophecy is still continuing So what what was the prophecy here?

Talking about like what other prophecies do we need? What other knowledge do we need outside of what's already completed in the scriptures?

What other prophecy do we need what other Because if prophecy ends when christ comes when the per when the perfect comes and that's and you're relating that to christ

Then what prophecy is necessary today? I think I think I understand what you're asking but let me

Try and ask it a different way and see if this helps For matt to answer. I think what you're trying to get to is I mean, would it be fair to say?

What is what does matt believe is the prophecy and the knowledge spoken of in first corinthians?

Yes Okay, so so matt what would be your view in first corinthians 13, uh

Eight and nine there. What is the what is prophecies and knowledge?

What do they refer to? I've often wondered about that particular thing. Um tongues and uh, for example, they'll cease

Lassallalia Does it mean then when the canon? Is completed that there'll be no more tongues

Well, what tongues? speaking in tongues Because that would be the only position that the cessationist could say

Is the thing that will cease it can't be just like spanish or german or whatever

So it had to be the charismatic aspect of the of uh tongues And the knowledge likewise would have to be some

I would assume the words of knowledge that people can get That god might give to them about certain situations

Which I can tell you when my wife did that before and it was miraculous Uh, and these these will cease because we won't need them

As we move through the kingdom of god and as we Expand the kingdom of god. There are times

When god will give us something so I believe right then and there that we're going to need specifically for a certain thing

And that's a movement of god That he can work through us and to us as john knox did as george wishart john fleming

I've got these guys documented. I can read them to you And these things were there but didn't threaten the canon, but nevertheless uh

So that I think that what they're talking about is those charismatic aspects uh Spoken of in first corinthians 14.

That's what I think So do you think the the prophecy

Can I just a follow up real quick as as it moving into first corinthians 14 um

Could could the prophecy Mentioned when where prophecy is mentioned there in first corinthians 14, for example, uh verse three

But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and for exhortation and for consolation.

Could that just be the same as uh proclamation preaching the preaching of christ, uh since since the term prophecy has carried on through the centuries as to mean preaching

I I think it's a very good question and i've wondered about that and I can't help But wonder if the cessationist view has and i'm not saying it has done this.

I wonder Could it be the cessationist view has forced that into saying that it's a proclamation of preaching of it instead of a prophetic word

And I don't know if that's right or wrong. I just I just think I wonder and And I have a radio show

I don't know if you guys know but I you know I've been on for 18 years five days a week And sometimes when this comes up i'll say sometimes the word prophecy is used to mean by people

As a just a preaching as well as a prophetic utterance of a future event I've never really done a complete study to just to designate or discern which one is the actual case here but since It's in first corinthians 14.

It says, uh, earnestly desire spirituals Spiritual actually says spiritual pneumonicas

The spiritual things and then it speaks about prophecy. I tend to want to lean towards the idea in that context

It's about speaking forth of something that Is prophetic so that people will uh see.

Oh that did come to pass. It is true That kind of thing I lean that way, but sure, okay because but I'm looking at this now verse uh chapter 14 verse 3

Well, let me just read the first three verses just a context he says, uh pursue love Uh and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts or as you said spirituals

Especially that you may prophesy For one speaks in a tongue

Speaks not to men but to god for no one understands him But utters mysteries in the spirit on the other hand the one who prophesies

Speaks to the people for their the upbuilding and the encourage the encouragement and um

The the upbuilding and encouragement of consolation The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church

Now I want you all to I want you all to speak in tongues But even more to prophesy the one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues unless someone interprets

That the church may be built up. So so this is You know, this would be something that is being done.

He's I think he's arguing within a church Right so it you know, um

I I think that you could I I mean So I think that he's he's speaking about prophecy of That would be revelation

But I can see how people would say this is just the preaching But That would be a an interesting thing because I mean usually you only have one person that's preaching in the church

But he's speaking to the whole church, right? right, so I I You know, and I think he's is

I I believe he's using some uh sarcasm and things like that throughout the this section um very clearly in in I think chapter 13 1 and 2 um

Now and I will say matt, you know, the position you have is held by those that believe the gifts have ceased as well

I mean mcarthur justin peters both hold to the view of uh, the the perfect the teleos in verse

Uh verse 9 of chapter 13 as being the end times and You know,

I know that many make that argument, you know, kind of like what you had said with the the seeing face to face

They say that that's seeing christ face to face uh knowing is we're fully known people will say that that's when we're uh, you know when we're with christ

But I look at those and I see three three separate illustrations there And that's that's the thing i'm seeing them as illustrations to what teleos means so I wouldn't make that the main point there

They're subordinate to the main point Which is that you have the the prophecy and knowledge uh, that is partial so whatever the teleos is it has to be tied to the prophecy and knowledge so I think

I think that what what drew was actually asking is is really the important thing we have to get to To defining what is the prophecy and the knowledge?

Here because that's going to help us to know what it is. That's completed

Um Yeah, uh Well Like I said, let's be honest i've never in i've read tons of commentaries on this the knowledge

No one seems to know what it is Prophecy, yeah, there's a couple different things.

It's either it's either the the you know Getting a word of the lord of scripture, you know, it's revelation.

So it's either a revelatory gift Or it's preaching Yeah, we wouldn't need preaching, uh from your perspective where it's the completion of the canon

Well, we would still need preaching. We still need preaching. Yeah, but we need more revelation. Yeah, so Revelation from your position

Yeah, I I would say that it that the the prophecy is is giving of of the word of god and therefore

Once that was completed we don't need it because we have the full canon what we need For this dispensation just figured i'd throw that.

Oh, yeah You know,

I call my uh Presbyterian, uh brethren Who uh are cessationists

I say? Oh, so you believe the dispensation of the gifts has ended? I tweak them have fun

So John knox foretold both the manner of their surrender and the deliverance from the french galleys regarding some individuals

Another time he thus addressed himself to the queen uh henry blah blah blah And said the lord shall thus strike both head and tail both king and queen died violent deaths

He likewise said when the castle of edinburgh held out for the queen against the regent that the castle would be

Would spew out the captain meaning so and so and so and so It's hard to say these names.

Sir. William kirkle d of grain just what i'm saying Skipping with it spit him out with shame that he should not that he should not come out the gate

But over the wall that the tower, uh called davis tower should run like sand glass And that's exactly what happened and so I mean,

I can read these in detail John knox Nobody here disagrees that miracles would happen though.

So that would you say it's a prophecy? Is it a prophecy or is it discernment?

Yeah, no, it was a prophecy prophesied how it would occur that they would be they would be I hadn't read everything I didn't read it out loud, but that they would come out over the wall not out through the gate and that they were hung

That's what happened Their manner of death. Yeah, jim How unlikely is it that you could observe current events and make some generalized predictions about what's about to happen in the near future?

I could do that about our current political situation. I mean probably within the four of us cessationists here

We could say look I think x y and z is going to happen to joe biden and x y and z is going to happen at the midterms

Yeah, we're probably one of us is going to get that right Does that mean that we're prophets and is that the same thing as speaking authoritative revelation from god?

Well, here's where I think that they did that the night of the I think Right. Yeah, here's where I think that chris was getting to when he said uh, this threatens the canon is

Is is john knox's prophecy a word from god on the level of scripture? Of course not if it's not

All of us would say of course it's not Okay, so then we're not talking about revelation then so is god speaking less authoritatively through john knox

And i'm saying that if he is then that's not the new testament gift of prophecy I don't believe prophets got it wrong.

I don't believe prophets had hunches I don't believe that they just kind of speculated about current events happened to get it Right and then therefore they held the office of prophet in the early church

So if god is not if if god is not if god is speaking It is authoritative infallible and inerrant because god cannot speak a non -authoritative

Errant and fallible word because it comes from god. Okay So therefore the gift of revelation has certainly ceased unless we have an open canon

So if we don't have an open canon if the canon is closed then god's no longer giving authoritative errant

Inerrant and infallible revelation anymore No, it happens to you in preaching You've been up on the pulpit.

I'm sure where you will have an insight that occurs right then and there That you will know and I don't i'm not speaking infallibly

I know but you will know that it's from the lord because it's true And there are times

I've preached, you know, i've done guest preaching and faulted supply for years and years Southern california there'd be times when it's like I did not

I talked to my wife later I don't know where that came from You know, and i'm not going to take credit. Oh, I figured it out, you know

This is a kind of thing that can occur but you see exegetically I'm, not convinced out of first corinthians 1 7 or first corinthians 13 8 through 12

But the gifts have ceased because they will cease when the perfect comes the return of christ and I always like it.

I mean, I don't mean this in a mocking sense brothers, but I i've always enjoyed how uh

The rationalizations and that's not a good word The ways that people will say these things can't be real.

It was hypnosis. It was this it was that it was just a lucky guess and And that reminds me

I'm gonna be very careful It reminds me of some of the rationalizations I get from Some atheists about prophecies, you know, jesus born here born there and you guys are not like that I'm, not saying in any way shape or form.

I don't mean it But it's like why is it then that if these things are happening that it's instead of just yeah, they prophesied

No, it can't be it had to be that, you know xyz. How about this one? Before you move on can

I can I get to your because you before you move on to the next thing? I just want to clarify something I have had that happen when preaching but I don't call that the gift of prophecy

I call it the gift of preaching And so my experience of the spirit's work is going to vary at different points as a cessationist

I'm, not arguing that the spirit never works I'm arguing the spirit's not giving infallible revelation today, and I don't call that the gift of prophecy.

So if you broaden out um every work of the holy spirit and say and any kind of insight that you have in studying scripture or counseling or Dealing with an issue or any wisdom that you feel you have in the in the moment

I wouldn't say well that can't be the holy spirit That just has to be I because I don't believe he does that anymore But if you broaden all that out and say oh, that's that's what

I call the gift of prophecy Then yeah, you've won the argument because you've redefined what I think prophecy is.

No, that's not what i'm saying prophecy is I remember once I did when I said there's no prophecy

You said that happens to you when I preach and no it doesn't I don't have the prophecy when I preach I thought you said revelation.

Maybe I miss a mystery. Well, yeah, see i'm see there i'm equating it Here's where we get down to terms is because you're calling you're i'm saying that i'm not giving revelation

An insight from the spirit or something that i've had this happen when I preach pops into my head and it's not my manuscript

It's an insight into the text that suddenly a connection is made It could have happened on wednesday. It happens that and this week it just happened to happen on a sunday morning at you know, 11 25 it could have happened on wednesday, but it didn't but that's not revelation to me

That's you could call my mind was illuminated. You can call it an insight You call it the spirit of god helping me to see something and understand something.

I believe he works in all of those ways Amen, brother preach. That's not what i'm arguing has ceased

Preach it brother. I like that. Yeah, that's good All right All right.

So here's uh, george wisher George wishart He got a letter directing to him from his intimate friend the laird of kinnier

Acquainting him that he had been taken as taken sudden sickness and requested him to come to him with all diligence upon this

He immediately set out on his journey attended by some honest friends from montrose who out of affection would accompany him part of the way they

Had not traveled above a quarter mile when all of a sudden he stopped saying to the company quote

I am forbidden by god to go this journey Will some of you please be pleased to ride to yonder place

Point his finger to a little hill and see what you find for I apprehend. There is a plot against my life

Whereupon he returned to the town and they who went forward found that there were people there to kill him 60 horsemen

So he said his thing was i'm forbidden by god to go to this journey My question would be

I don't know that that's Prophecy as much as it's it's just discernment in that in that moment.

Yeah He's But martin luther dealt with the same thing when um

They knew there was a plot to kill him and so they disguised him, you know, it's almost the same thing

No, I wouldn't say so. I mean He said i'm forbidden by god. This is what he said.

He says god's forbidding him to do this. Did He say that or did someone write that?

that's what I was just gonna ask is because I don't know the account you're you're reading so maybe Because you know and it is back to the john knox story as well and I love john knox his picture is hanging right there uh

That's john mcarthur. I see that He's under john mccarthur. But uh, did he did he met?

Explain more. I mean, did he did he claim it was a prophecy? Um, he just i'm just reading what what's in this book called the scott's worthies which

I got at the library From westminster theological seminary where I got my mdiv and it was right there

And They had a conference on the charismatic gifts They had all kinds of people come in and they thought about having me speak on the counter position.

They didn't And in this big conference, I raised up my notebook full of documentation

And I said to these gentlemen very respectfully. They're good men of god great men of god. I said gentlemen

I said there's a book and I Said on the other side of that wall is the library scott's worthies blah blah blah blah

I have documentation right now in my hand where they moved in the charismatic gifts And I said what

I could read them. I give them to you. You can look and they said you don't need to we already know about it And I said, okay.

Well, what do you do with that? And he says we haven't made a decision yet. Next question They were dismissive

Here's the ultimate question is your exegesis of scripture infallible

No, mine's not When paul says that you're not to lack any charisma

While you're waiting for the apocalypsis of jesus. He's speaking to the church any charisma.

You're not to lack it What does that mean? Are we lacking those now any of them today because we don't have a need for them

No, no And that's what the word lack means The word lack means there's a need for something and you don't have it.

Okay. I don't have revelation. I have everything I have everything necessary. I don't lack any revelation.

Yeah 66 infallible books. I lack no revelation Therefore I don't need the gift of revelation. I don't need the gift of tongues.

Therefore. I don't lack it And and that's why I think it's good to Wait a second guys. I'm sorry Sorry, I have to say this

That I think you guys are isogeting Look what it says Okay, I wanted to say the isogete team has arrived.

Okay So you're not lacking in any gift in any charisma

That's what it says And notice look at the context here Uh verse seven so uh verse five that in everything you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge

Even as a testimony concerning christ was confirmed in you that you are not lacking in any charismatic gift awaiting eagerly the revelation of our lord jesus christ that means

What well the word church of corinth had all those gifts manifested. Yeah the word historio

Means to be needy to be without to lack

To be in need so yeah, what it means is is that the church once the scripture is completed

There we no longer lack revelation. We have all the revelation. We need the until until the coming of christ

There is no more need For any revelation. Well, I didn't say that It didn't say that you just pulled a latent flowers.

No, I did. I guess you did Of course you did I mean philippians 1 29.

Mr. Layton flowers. It says that god grants that we believe no, he grants the opportunity that we believe Come on.

No, it is what it said. That's the meaning of the word What does it mean? I could say stuff to you look

Like something I had an interesting call today that this would fit right into Paul is saying to the church

And everyone everywhere who calls upon the name of the lord is that for us today well, yeah,

I mean you but that's It says the saints by calling I think I misread it or misquoted it with all who

Basically, right with all who in every place call the name of the lord. Is that for us today? Yeah, okay

Okay, so it's it's universal for today as well Grace to you and peace from god our father and the lord.

Jesus christ. That's for today I thank my god always concerning you now. He's talking to the corinthians specifically

That was given to you in christ. Jesus that in everything You were enriched in him in all speech in all knowledge

Even as a testimony concerning him of christ was confirmed in you that you not lack You're not lacking any gift if you want to say

That it it's only for the corinthian church Then you have to say that the charismatic gifts are what he's talking about that they're not lacking

If you want to say it's universal, then you'd have to say that it's not the gifts that they're lacking but something else

But you've got to understand because you can't do that because when you go to verse 9 God is faithful through whom you're called in the fellowship with his son christ.

Jesus. That's universal And I quote first corinthians 1 9 all the time, but I can agree with that.

It's universal because And here's where I think we have the disconnect matt It so so what i'm saying is that this is saying that we are not lacking any revelation

It doesn't say that hold on Well, we i'm going to look at first corinthians 13 to say that that's speaking of canon

So you're saying the the lack of means there's a need so so what is the need?

That that we would have to have because when you look at the word here Matthew matthew 1920 it's used the young man said unto him

All these things i've kept what do I still lack? That required that it's saying he has a need

Okay And and jesus said to him, you know, jesus says looking at him

Uh loved him and said to him you lack one thing go and sell all all that you have and give to the poor

Okay, so you end up seeing that this the word the very meaning of the word means that there must be a need

So what is the need that the church has? Until christ's coming for the gift is simple that they not lack any charismatic gifts.

That's the need No, what is what is the what is the need that the church? Why is the church lacking without the gifts?

The lacking here is that you not lack any gift any charisma Paul is saying to the church that you're not to lack any of these

That's what it's saying you're you're

You're trying to define a word by using the word i'm trying to find a word by using it in its context

Because it's we don't want to commit illegitimate totality transfer where words have different meanings of different context you transfer them over You've taught on on hermeneutics.

So, you know, I got my notes here and I wrote illegitimate totality transfer that you're saying here What we do first primarily is what does it mean in the immediate context correct immediate context is

But it says you're not So that you are not lacking in any gift

Correct charismatic. You see he's saying you're not to be lacking that that's what he's saying And we're not lacking

So we're not liking any charismatic gift today, right? We're not in my camp because we don't have a need for it because that's what lack means

So let me we don't have a need for it Because we have the canon What makes you think that the canon's existence means

I don't need to have a word of knowledge when i'm out witnessing Or that bruchco bruce Olson when he goes to the modoloni tribe in columbia and they

Tribe gets converted and they don't speak the language of the enemy tribe and yet they go over and speak to them

And they all get converted what makes you think that's the case or that when when tony is going to do a prop

Going to do her mission work and I prophesy about that or when I get a word of knowledge or when my wife comes in Late to a marriage counseling situation that i'm doing with two people

And we had a specific topic that was going on and we had changed the topic Five minutes earlier.

She then comes in and sits there and says I don't know if this is from the lord or not

But I I want to say something And she speaks exactly to what it was before How would she know that?

See, this is in the proclamation of the gospel the furthering of the kingdom in helping people

Where does it say in this in the bible? For example, where does it say that everything we have and we need is in scripture

Where's it? No, we're not making that argument, but but See, this is the thing what we're saying is if that if the gifts are used for for revelation

Right, then the church isn't lacking it once it's completed I think you're misrepresenting the the issue there.

It's not an issue of lacking revelation The church is not to lack charisma Not revelation revelation is a subset of the charisma

Because if you go to romans 6 23 the free gift charisma of god is eternal life

It's a charismatic gift And i'm not saying that that proves, you know, everything's true today It just means that it has its range of meanings and That we are not to lack in any of these charismatic gifts

That's what it says. I don't see how anybody can get around it without doing you know mental gymnastic hopscotches and Is defining the word neat of lack and lack requires a need

And so I would say that we don't have the need but The need is right there that you not lack any gift.

The need is the gift. That's why he's saying you don't lack it All right, so let me let me ask this question jim, were you going to ask something else

No, I I just you're you're saying you're taking a statement of fact regarding a church the church of corinth in the first century

And you're and paul saying you do not lack in any need a gift and they're you're extrapolating that to today and saying

Therefore no church is to ever lack in any gift ever And that's not what paul said paul said the church of corinth did not lack any gift

We made a statement about that church Okay and So first corinthians 1 2 all who everywhere call upon the name of the lord and two verses later

God's called in the fellowship. So what you're let me get this straight. So you're saying Universal universal everything said about is everything said about the corinthian church

True of every church that there are divisions that there are men sleeping with their wives No, but he says just two chapters earlier that this was true of everybody who calls on the name of the lord

So if you're going to extrapolate what paul says about their giftedness their level of giftedness and say that that's something that must be true

Of every church that's ever existed How do you not do the same thing with everything else that he says that specifically addresses just the church in corinth?

It's addressed to the universal church, is it not? All who know that letter was not written to the universal church

It was written to the saints in corn. I got that but is it universally applied because it's scripture

That's for the church for us today, is it? There are there applications in it that are universally applied

But what is said of the church of corinth is not necessarily true of every church that has ever existed Yeah, you can go.

We don't have any people. We don't have any people in our church sleeping with their father's wife therefore I can't

I can't go to that and say well look this passage Obviously is true paul said this to all the church with the universal church So there must be somebody sleeping here with their father's wife.

That's up Who is it? I can't I can't go to my church and say that But that first one is five is a specific issue of a specific thing that was brought up to bring out of a point

And that obviously is exegetically a different context and so we're not talking about first corinthians five

We're talking about first corinthians one and in first corinthians one It's a universal address and in first corinthians one nine.

He says the fellowship that we're all called into that's universal as well So if you want to say that no if first corinthians one must be interpreted in light of first corinthians five because over there

There's a minutiae detail about an individual that's used as an illustration of something and that's why we don't need the charismatic gifts

I don't see that as being coherent You're hermeneutic and i'm applying it the exact same way i'm using your exact same argument.

I am it's the exact same argument Because i'm saying that in first corinthians one nine i'm saying all of the book is written to the church of corinth

So with the Go ahead Church of corinth is to have no lack of any gifts while they're waiting for return of jesus, right?

No, it said he said you do not lack any spiritual gift Which means that all of the gifts were operational in the first century at the church of corinth

But he doesn't say that that is intended to be true the universal church for time and fortuity Okay, it doesn't say that you do not lack but that you are not lacking.

It's a present, uh participle Describing what was true of the church of corinth. They are not lacking it

Good, so that means they had all that so the corinthian church had all the charismatic gifts Absolutely.

Yep. We're in agreement While they're waiting for the return of christ, right Yeah, they were just like we are.

Okay, and so in first corinthians 13 the same book Hold on now.

I can't use arguments from the same book, but you can Say that say that because what you did

What you did was take an instance that was directed specifically about a certain sin In a certain thing to represent it back over here

I'm trying to show you that the connection in the apocalypsis is return is the same thing that's spoken about in the perfect atelios

In first in first corinthians 13 8 that when the perfect comes because that certainly is consistent to say that they're the same thought well

I'm, I would agree with you that first corinthians 1 is addressing until the coming of the lord Until the return of christ and we are still waiting for the return of christ today

I would agree. What's your view of first corinthians 13? The the perfect is do you believe it's a canon or you believe? It's the return of christ canon

So when the canon is completed, that's when we know god or known by god fully Well, I know

I think god knows me fully before the canon was completed. I think he knew me fully before the foundation of the world Well, no it says then the antecedent refers back to the telios then we will be known as as we're fully known

So we will know as we are fully known. So that occurs When the canon is completed, that's when we're fully known when the scripture because if you're going to say that from eternity

That's when god knew that it can't apply the complete completion of the of this Canon and it can't and it can't apply to the second coming of christ either which means that sure can

Uh, it well then you have to argue that god did not know know me fully until the christ comes back No knowing there's a prophetic knowing proganosco, which is in in Romans 8 29 those who before knew he also predestined those four new proganosco god only knows believers

I get away from me. I never knew you matthew 7 23 when you did not know god you serve by nature those which are not

Gods, but now that you've known god or come to be known by him Now you're going to serve the true living god so to be known by god is the issue of salvation

And so when he's talking here in first corinthians 13 8 Let me get over there well, somehow we got away from your isogenesis in first corinthians 1 but No, I thought uh, you guys are

When you're in cold water, it feels good to you all when you're all isogenic together

Okay Well, we know in part How do we get away from the point where you take a description of the church of corinth and say therefore that's universal for every

Church because he says to everyone everywhere Now I certainly would agree that there's issues within that particular church like first corinthians 5 stephen was his mother's wife

His father's wife. Okay, right now. That's a particular sin. We know is specifically related only to there

It does not mean that it's obligatory that that be the condition of any other church Of course that's not the case and to assert that that is the case and that's why it doesn't come into first uh, first one to me is just uh,

You know The connection is not there. All right I'm i'm saying that i'm saying that paul said certain things true about the corinthian church that are not necessarily true about every church

Okay, i'm saying first corinthians 1 9 is such a statement And it's universal or just for them.

It's true of the corinthian church It is not necessarily true of every church that they had every spiritual gift that's ever been given.

We don't have a gift We have oh, sorry Sorry, you meant first one seven Yeah, I don't know what

I said That's okay. So yeah first. Yeah that passage. Um They didn't lack any spiritual gift

I'm saying that that statement is something that was true of the corinthian church that they had in operation in their congregation

Every spiritual gift every expression of the holy spirit while they're waiting for jesus to come back

Yeah, I agree and so when the perfect comes means the canon doesn't say that they'll have to until jesus comes back

It just says while they're waiting at that time all those gifts were in operation It's right a present participle is a continuing action in the present.

That's what it means It's a continuing. This is how it is right now while you're waiting you're going to have these gifts You're not to lack any charismatic gift.

Now if I say this place that's isa jesus. No, it's not It doesn't it doesn't say you're not to lack it.

You will never lack it It says you do not lack them. No, you are not lacking these gifts. It doesn't say this forever

You will have the fulfillment of every gift I didn't say that But this is what it does say so that at least of the nasb you're not lacking in any gift

The lacking there is a present passive. Uh, oh, it's I think it's not a participle.

Sorry It's a present passive infinitive that you are not to lack any gift. All right

So you're not to lack any gift The corinthian church, so maybe let me ask you this and this was a question that someone asked here.

Maybe this would help matt Who who is the you in verse six? Is that the church universal or is that the corinthian church?

Oh the corinthian church So then if if the testimony about christ that was confirmed in you is the corinthian church

And now he's he's giving a parenthetical Argument to that testimony so that you are not lacking

Is that you in verse seven? The corinthian church or the universal church.

It's at least the corinthian church Okay, so we're all in agreement that it's the corinthian church.

But is that so so the argument that I think jim is trying to make is that If the you understand if the you in verse six is the corinthian church only why wouldn't the you

In verse seven be the corinthian church only that's a good question That's why

I was saying That what he ties it to is the apocalypsis So he ties it to the apocalypse which means that they are not to lack any charismatic gift while they're waiting for jesus to return

It doesn't necessarily logically mean that every single church will have this expectation

Even after the corinthian church has gone. It doesn't necessarily and logically require that are they still waiting?

No, hold on. Let me explain so what we can say is that we could the People like me would say this does have a universal quality because it's written to universal church

But on the other hand, there's an aspect where it's written only to the corinthian church So I get that but notice what he does in first corinthian seven.

He ties the charismatic gifts with the apocalypsis He relates them Now the way it's related is something to discuss while you're waiting for the return of christ

Then when we get to first corinthians 13 the perfect which in my opinion

Certainly must be the return of christ as many scholars have agreed and many scholars don't and so therefore

I see it being consistent with the motif of what paul has said and so therefore when you

Then you see face to face which is personal encounter. It's not face to face. It's not personal encounter when the bible's

Completed and then i'll be known as i'm fully known is not when the bible is completed But in the revelation of christ in the apocalypsis that makes far more sense to say that than to say with the completion of the canon

That's when i'll be known fully known and that's when i'll see face to face when the canon is completed It just doesn't work for me aesthetically.

Maybe you guys does yeah, I mean, but the the known as you're fully known and the the seeing face to face is also tied to Being a man versus a child.

You have three illustrations there and each illustration is pointing out something that is

Partial to completion which is exactly what verses 8 to 10 is talking about you have the these these gifts

That are partial and become complete and then you have a child to a man Seeing in a mirror dimly versus seeing face to face.

It's not actually seeing a person it is The it's there's a comparison there

So it's seeing dimly versus seeing clearly it's knowing in part versus knowing as you're fully known and then

With with this one, I guess the question I would have for you matt is is the focus on this the

Coming of christ or the waiting because they're not waiting today are they We're waiting aren't we but but this is not speaking to us

The you was the church of corinth right Versus verse six even as the testimony of christ confirmed in you

So that you won't lack any gift as you wait for the revel the revealing of the lord jesus christ

Very good. Yeah, so Corinthian church Yep, that's corinthian church And then he goes on to say that you're not to lack any gift or excuse me that when the perfect comes

No when the perfect comes so When the perfect comes is when we will see face to face

In genesis 32 30 and oh, by the way, you're you're uh your idea Earlier of proverbs 27 19 is face reflecting face.

If you look at the hebrews, uh, the bible how this scholar has translated it Yeah, the hebrews

Correct. The hebrews face face, which is face spaces, which is exactly how it is in this

Oh, I forget which verse where the you also have the reflection face to face When moses had a face -to -face encounter with jesus as are we god?

Um, that was the same thing. Let me pop this up since this is in contrast says the context as water

Face to face reflects face to face. That's why they said reflects so it's not the same thing It's not the same, uh issue, but you know, it is the same issue because it's looking in a mirror dimly

Right, that's what it's tied to right And then we'll see face to face. Yeah, so The phrase god

I I believe god interprets his own word because it's because I saw god face to face genesis 32 30

That's a definite and absolute personal encounter exodus 33 11 You cannot uh, moses spoke big face to face as a man speaks with his friend

Numbers 12 8 With him I speak face to face clearly not in riddles Talking to mos about moses the lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire in the mountain

Jeremiah 32 4 I can go on and on I don't want to bore you guys with this but even in third Let's see

Second corinthians 10 1 by the meekness of uh, gentleness of christ. I appeal to you. I paul who am timid when face to face with you

And there's more verses like this The overall understanding of the face to face as god uses it and reveals it in scripture is in a personal encounter

So why should I then say that face to face in first corinthians 13? Means it isn't a personal encounter when the

I don't and your argument. I don't buy your argument from proverbs 27 I don't believe it talks. It's a face -to -face there.

It's talking metaphorically in poetry about reflection of water But that is my It's metaphorical

It is Yeah, that the with the whole when the canon is completed is metaphorical

The canon is completed is metaphorical Huh? When the canon is completed.

Is that also metaphorical? Yeah, because what it's what it's doing is it is is illustrating something that is in part to something that is complete

Just like when we're a child Becoming an adult which is the very so so the thing is is that okay?

If you're going to take the those those as literals right face to face

Knowing as i'm fully known So does that mean like how do you then deal with the fact of the child to to adult and knowing in part?

Versus no, right because because that's the culture Because in our immaturity as a christian church, we need all the help we can get and when christ returns all this immature stuff

Words of knowledge all these charismatic things are going to dissipate and go away Because now we have the fullness of who christ is so we need the extra help.

So what is the childish things that we give up? 55 inch monitors that you make someone else

Hey gentlemen, I gotta I gotta take off i'm up against another appointment so I gotta go jim. It was good

Nice talking to jim. I hope I get to meet you sometime in person. Well State although he he's up in the he's up in the

He's in the barrel. He's in the good part of idaho. Yeah, that's exactly right Maybe you should make your way up for the conference, you know, someone didn't invite me but uh, it's it's an open invitation, you know

Just driving and look at you guys. We invited the we invited the church universal so we don't need to Specific you good.

Good. Good. Good. Good. That means you should get kenneth copeland. Well, he's not in the church He could he could come he might learn some things

Jim, thanks for coming on. Uh one of the same gents. I got a jet as well Community church and check that out.

We'll probably wrap up I do have one a couple one question that someone was asking or two that uh,

I want to try to get you to to answer matt um I'll go with the second one first just because it was in the context of what we're saying um

And i'm i'm trying to look up. I want to see which word he's was Yeah, so so he says here the question for matt is if humo

In verse 1 6 is the same group in of humas in 1 7

Then how can you make the latter more than the former? What exegetical basis do you have for such an understanding?

what I already said was this is a A document that is addressed to the church universal because it says everyone everywhere now

Certainly within this we have to understand that there is the address only to the corinthians

Specifics as the pat. I forgot his name uh as josh Rightly stated that in first corinthians 5 and the the uh, the sin issue.

It's a specific We can't take that and apply that everywhere and he's saying the same thing. We can't take this and apply it everywhere and I get that But what

I had said was that the corinthian church is not lacking in any charismatic gift while they're waiting for the return of christ so Paul is tying the charismatic gifts as a relationship to the return of christ.

He's doing that Now the issue then becomes what is that relationship? And so I'm going to answer that but I don't want to ignore who who men and who may so it's just the same words that cognate and so the thing is

I would say absolutely we have the evidence and I would absolutely say without doubt Of course, he's addressing the individuals there at the corinthian church

I have no problem with that the question then becomes because he ties it in with the apocalypsis

That's the issue to me. Why does he do that? Why did he just say that you're not lacking any gift?

Well, then okay, but he says why you're waiting for the return of christ now that to me is very interesting and I I wonder why did he put that in there?

And I don't have all the answers, of course, but it's like why do you why do you do that? Well to me it makes sense to say because of first corinthians 13, which i've gone through backwards and forwards over the years

The perfect i'm just i'm sorry i'm not going to be convinced that it's the canon Because I don't mean the canon is not when we see face to face the canon when it's completed is not when we

Uh, we are known fully it's the return of christ That's where we're going to see face to face and that's where we're going to be known as we're fully known

It just makes too much exegetical sense to say that So then because of this

I see the apocalypsis of first corinthians 1 7 the perfect coming I see that as being the apocalypsis as well.

And therefore I say the charismatic gifts won't Come to to a cessation fully until the return of christ and my exegesis is sound now whether it's true

It's valid whether it's true is another issue So I want you guys to know I don't come on this willy -nilly

But I I have a good reason for it. I have a good reason for it and We could take if you guys want to stay after all

I will When you shut it down we can go to first corinthians, uh 14 and start reading And cross out the stuff that no longer applies that cessationism is true

And see that's what you want to do And then what are you going to do with all of the accounts all over the world of christians all over the place

Who experiences not that that makes it true Well matt all kinds and even the things that i've experienced and then what has to happen.

I remembered it wrong. It's not correct I know it's correct Just like I know what I saw when

I was involved in the occult and I saw a yellow cross materialized no drugs No, anything no suggestion.

I saw it and people will say well that you saw that you saw that you saw But this one you don't remember properly why because my understanding of scripture doesn't permit you to have that experience well the the look

The one thing am I right drew well Drag, I mean I I have experiences too, you know

And especially because I was in the vineyard church, you know, i've seen people get healed but but does it mean from god?

Well, I mean I saw people get healed but that doesn't mean you know anyone who has the gift of healing so right

I would totally agree. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, I just can't go by experiences alone Um from what someone says about this.

I mean i'm not saying anyone's lying But at the same time that's also not authoritative either. Absolutely correct

So so let me get this Last question that because james asked us a couple times.

So I want to make sure we get to it question and I want to get this before jim left, but uh question the the

Apostleship Was a gift The original apostles all passed so is the gift of apostles

N -o -g, I don't know what he was trying to say but But apostleship c so so this is this is the issue.

I think matt and and I I will say this Though I disagree with matt's position matt you debated, uh, sam waldron

On the charismatic gifts and and I will admit that matt won the debate Even though he has the wrong view

Let me defend him I was gonna say it. He he he matt won the debate because Matt argued the case of the debate and sam waldron argued

Different, you know, there were no no, you don't understand We had dinner before the debate and literally at dinner is when he said

I thought the debate was gonna be on a different topic He prepared a different topic. Yeah, so I just want to be fair.

I he wasn't prepared and And so, you know, that's it. I I don't call it a great victory

He wasn't prepared for it. And so that's it He prepared for the wrong topic of debate and that's but so so this is the question of the way this argument goes is basically that The apostleship was a gift the apostles ceased the gift doesn't continue

Therefore the argument the way this goes is to say that since there's no more apostles

There's no more apostolic gifts. And so with what people that hold to this would argue that These gifts were part of the apostolic movement

Okay I would I would I do not hold to that view I would I think this is where matt and I probably would end up agreeing with with it is

I don't think You the argument that well, these are only gifts that were of the apostles now

I'm gonna obviously i'm gonna say that these were gifts that were for the confirmation of scripture

So we didn't need them after scripture was complete Matt would have a different so i'm gonna let matt explain his but we both

I think would disagree with the Uh, and I forget how sam waldron's what he calls it.

Um But it's basically the apostolic argument um yeah, it's been a long time since I did that debate and uh

Since I know that he wasn't prepped for it. I just kind of dismiss it not his his debate but the the debate

Yeah, it was a fair debate and so, uh I felt bad for him

Yeah, and and you know, it wasn't there to I'm not making anybody look bad or anything I didn't want to do that so, uh anyway about apostles

Now i've done a lot of work and research in the nar new apostolic reformation other apostles today

Yes, and no Depending on how you define it. That's right. Now that that's that's the right answer

So what's the real definition turns out there's seven different types of apostles Jesus is even called an apostle.

There's false apostles. Barnabas was an apostle, but he didn't write any scripture. He didn't do any miracles Jesus is like I said

You could be an apostle by simply being sent they're messengers. They perform no miracles and I got the verses for this anyway so that's just fyi but what they mean is

Paul the apostle peter the apostle is that done? Absolutely First corinthians 9 1, you know paul says he's defending his apostleship.

Have I not seen the risen lord? so that apostleship is by the the uh, the

Arrival of christ and seeing before and after and all of that kind of stuff and also in matthew chapter 10 Jesus gives his disciples who are apostles the authority to cast out demons and do stuff and I have an article written on this against The roman catholic church where they did this on command not everyone every time

But apostolic stuff is by authoritative command so that done any

Wacko moron who gets up on a stage and says when justin gets up and he's hobbling up there

That's when I first called him batman And he gets up there and some guy goes, you know be healed like that, you know, give me a break

You know, I would he was I thought he did a great job just exposing that guy But but does it mean then let me ask you guys a question here, let me just jump into this

Do you believe god? Give me There we go. I like you're out of focus.

You looked much better that way Do you believe god let's say all three of us are at times square preaching teaching and someone walks up and You don't know what they're saying

And then suddenly you say some words that you don't know what they mean in a different language And it ministers to that person just let me ask you is that possible

Well Okay, so i'm going to I want to be precise I would say is it possible? Yes.

Is it god? Yeah god But is it the gift of tongues? The way you described it.

No in my understanding of the gift is that someone would Immediately know a language

And be able to be fluent in it That's not what it is. That's not what that's not what it is. So Let's get back to the scenario.

We're all three out there doing this. All right And so what's the other guy you're are you drew? That's true.

Yep drew. Okay So drew let's say I did it. You did it. Whatever, you know In that scenario you think it's possible for god to do that right there now possible.

Yes, I know you say I mean, but you say it happens or do you think it's possible to actually happen?

Well, see I would I would say that scripture says that that ceased with the completion of the pen

So then it's not going to be possible then for me to be out there And someone comes up And then

I say I know exactly what it is that you have done Against god and i'm going to tell you what it is.

Did you think to think to think to think like that? And you need to repent because he's called you to it

In fact, he's spoken to you about this in your own heart about this and the guy just goes What is that?

Yeah, but this this is an important question I think I think we're talking past each other and that's why i'm stopping you because We I think we keep going you're talking about an incident of someone you know

Having like you said with jim with the preaching where God's providence it would is in work versus someone having the gift of of revel of giving a revelatory gift of scripture

Now, I think there are two different categories And so he said revel, I think he said revelation.

I hope i'm not misrepresenting him But revelation is it only a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom and interpretation of a tongue or prophecy?

Or is it also the enlightening of the mind where the spirit of god goes? This is what it means Can that latter thing happen?

Of course it can well, that's the illumination of the spirit. Yeah, absolutely Would you say that illumination is revelatory?

Well, I think there are two different types of revelation because I mean as we progress In our knowledge of god and study through the scripture

We have progressive revelation where we see see more clearly what scripture is saying, but that's completely different than me

Having a revelation of some future event that has yet to take place and then speaking

Let me ask you drew um, and if you say you can't exegete my experience, but I gave a

An instance when I actually prophesied over someone I remember it very clearly. I've always told the story the same way

And i'm not saying it's i'm not saying you have to believe me and I know if you say you don't believe me You have your doubts.

You're not calling me a liar But given all of that What do you do with something like that? And how

I read from george wisher john fleming and there's others I haven't even read from that these things happen What do you do with that?

Well, I mean, I don't I wasn't there when when john knox and them did that and then the guy who wrote it

So I don't know. I don't know his deal if he's actually portraying what it was because Stories like that over time they can get embellished

Um, but I mean you telling me a story of something that happened all I can say is okay, you know, it's like I mean, i'm not gonna argue with you, but I mean all

I can say is okay, you know If if something happened this person got saved came to the knowledge of the lord.

Okay. Amen I guess the lord used you in that but you know, it's So someone says it's not revelatory revelation is new information not necessarily it can be new information, but it can also be

That you you did not know something that has always been true and god reveals it to you so that can happen.

Certainly I've been in the pulpit many times When i've had a sermon all written out and it's a perfect sermon and suddenly that's not the thing i'm preaching

And insights will come in and i'll say to my wife It just flashed

Now, maybe it's a psychological phenomenon, you know, but it's like it happened so many times like but no

Are you talking about the illumination of the spirit? Yeah That's Yeah in that moment,

I would say that's just something that comes with your knowledge of of god's word being You know in you and so when you're speaking on those spiritual truths and revealing who god is when it comes up It's it's already in you.

And so the spirit is just illumining illuminating that in your mind That's what happened with first corinthians 1 7 and first corinthians 13 8

Yeah, so it was a it's to get you smiling good so So let me let me do this so we can we wrap up.

Um, So I want to keep talking about it. This is actually cathartic Yeah, we we've gone we've gone over three hours for a show.

I know I know folks like anthony time uh when we go over two hour mark, which has become the norm now, but how about if we if I open up a room if I would you

Mind if I said let's do an after show and i'll open up a stream yard you you can you can have a link i'm probably not gonna just because I'm gonna try for you.

I wouldn't want you in there either way Let me give some of the comments that we have gotten because there's some things, you know, first off melissa said, uh,

Can andrew upper can you host a debate with layton flowers pretty please? um, you had to bring layton flowers in so that we get these comments we we have

Melissa says I would love to see andrew or matt debate layton flowers. That would be the bomb. We both

We've both met layton. Um in and both matt and I when we were in texas tried to Explain to layton that the way he handles his hermeneutics

Is just not right, but he just doesn't see it. I I think personally and i've told layton this so i'm not saying anything

I haven't said directly to him I believe that layton did a debate with james white got a platform and Likes the platform and and he is

Doubling down to keep the platform because he is He's an evangelist.

That's what he is Trained. That's what he teaches And yet now he's known for one thing being the anti -calvinist

And yeah, it is hard to you build that platform problem Yeah, yeah, you build the platform and it it's hard to not want to continue that platform

Of his his ministry and podcast is called soteriology 101, but he only ever talks about calvinism

He doesn't talk about any other aspect of soteriology. Yeah So what i'm thinking about doing is taking some of his clips and some other clips i've been hearing and then answering them

And some of the stuff it's just ridiculous what he says. Yeah, and and especially lately about open theism

Yeah, what's he said? He thinks they should be accepted into the church. Yeah Yeah, you ever heard the one about the god of open theism who said what

Yeah, so so jess here says I just I just want to say I have learned so much from these brothers um humble clay said

I don't necessarily agree with any of these gentlemen But what other view is there

It's something we don't know but I I respect them and want to learn more discern and and move on and then

One more comment that jess had said is uh, she's questioned. How long have matt and andrew disagreed on this topic?

Well, we've we've disagreed on it as long as we've known each other, which is like I don't know like a dozen years or something but uh

We just and we've debated it jess. We've uh, if you go at the onto the striving fraternity youtube channel

Uh, you'll see a debate that matt and I did. Um, I was on matt's radio program once where we debated it

Impromptu debate that I was in studio with matt and someone asked the question and matt just So matt just looks at me and goes he

I he was answering the person's question. I smirked He saw my smirk and he goes. Okay, that's it.

Let's let's do this just an impromptu debate for for like 12 15 minutes of his radio show so we've we have dealt with it several times

But here here's the thing. I want to I do want to say With this for folks and and this is the thing.

I hope that everyone takes away First off, you know, I want to thank matt for coming in, you know matt comes in And and yeah, we had five guys that hold to one position matt holds to a different position so first off I just want to for folks to to Say that you know, this is it's it's not easy to do that, you know, and and and you know

There was at one point where we're all kind of trying to say something matt's like, okay one at a time Because it is difficult when it's rapid fire coming from different people.

We have the advantage of having someone else speak while we think about things and matt is having to to you know, just go and answer

Um, and I will say humble clay here is saying, uh slick after show. Yes, please

So I will if you want to put it on matt slick live. I mean not match like live but matt slick Uh, so i'll put it on youtube matt slick

Okay, and uh, i'll put a stream yard Yeah, just if you if you do

Yeah Karm calendar so karm .org forward slash calendar and i'll just put the link and stuff there

It'll redirect you and i'll just put it in there within the five minutes and then we'll do it. Okay Good, that's where it'll be.

So So here you will come to join us drew if you want, you know Yeah, so here's here's the thing that I just want to point out is

I want you guys to notice matt and I are very good friends. He he is my best friends

I feel bad for matt. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm like you need more that's just because i'm friends with andrew, too

So here here's the thing Matt and I can remain very good friends having

Obviously disagreements on on not just this but other issues man. I've debated a whole lot of issues

You know covenant theology versus dispensationalism infant baptism Modes of baptism we we disagree in a whole lot of things was sprinkled incidentally.

Yeah, and so when we look at this The the point that I want is we're focusing on first corinthians 13

Focus on it. What is the main gift that he? emphasizes in chapter 12 chapter 13 chapter 14 love

Why can matt and I disagree? So strongly on something like this

And still get along because we love one another okay, and that is one of the things that I think we we need to realize when we have these these discussions

Um, I think I said this before matt you know, we were on the apologetics cruise and someone asked you a question and and I I know it's bad for me to say, you know that matt had a brilliant comment, but you know goes to his head

But he did um But you know, I mean someone asked matt why We would defend each other's position in the debate and matt said because we both know we're wrong

Theologically, we don't know where otherwise we'd change but We both know that we're not perfect.

You heard matt say this even earlier today that our theology Is is not infallible

And that's the thing and so I you know, our hope is that yes, we have differing views that are explained here, but dig into the scriptures

And see what they say. That's what we we would both encourage you to do

So Uh matt's going to put up an after show for those who want to join There's a couple people in the i'm reading the comments people are saying they want to they'd like to hear more

Yeah, one more thing. I want to say though And I I in private chat I was texting with chris, uh

More than once about getting upset with him. I apologized a lot in there

He was very gracious said don't worry about it And I did get upset and i'm really i'm ashamed of that Um, it's never something

I wanted to do, but I did just want to publicly say again. I blew it And uh, I just need to deal with that and that's something

I need to work on Emotionally mentally to all of this and so it should not have happened and I just confessed that well, this is

I mean I know that This is such a sensitive topic for you for what you've gone through And that's actually the reason

I I've said I didn't want I don't want to debate This topic with you anymore just because I know it get you do get emotional over it and I don't want to end up you know where You know, you start getting upset over, you know, son that really isn't

To do with me but really is going on with with son that happened in your past and so Yeah, it hurt big time bad

And uh, there's a lot of stuff to it but you know what I got to deal with it and uh god directed and Here I am.

I get it. I get to witness to people share the gospel a huge website radio show write books

Correct you heretics, you know, just basic stuff. It's a lot of fun So so matt, okay, this is this would be a great way to end the show with humble humble

Humble praise, that's right. Here's humble plays comment andrew and matt suck.

Jesus rocks. That's true We agree So look

I already got this stuff up on the calendar just come to the forward slash calendar I'm going to use a restroom check on my wife and then i'll i'll uh, i'll activate it.

So give me Four minutes. Yep. Five minutes times. Okay. Thanks folks. You're welcome to come in drew if you want, you know, whatever

Where is this at? Where's it located? It'll be on stream yard. So on my web you have heard of karm, right?

Okay. Well, i'm actually uh years ago, I I got a

I paid for the membership thing for the apologetics courses. Oh really actually have that I I have not logged in in a long time

Just let us know we'll get make sure you have it and uh, your word's good enough that you did it We just say to people.

Hey, if you can't afford it, just ask for them We give it to you we help use it to clean with the well, what's really great is the conversation

Aspects you put in there. Um At the end of the lessons as examples, okay

I put in the the for those on youtube the link. It's just karm .org

slash calendar. It'll forward you Yeah, I guess it'll be it's not up there right now, but it'll be up there

Actually, it'll say charismatic after show 10 27. I just put that in there for a date thing And uh, it says watch so once I activate it it should propagate but It should be there and then i'll go to the youtube.

Matt. Uh, matt slick youtube karma .org forward slash Matt slick one word and i'll put it in there to make sure let me just talk for a little bit

That is provided. My wife doesn't have any medical things. She does have a lot of stuff going And and so let me say what

I what I started off the show with just with that is if you guys could all be praying for matt, uh is

You know as I said in the beginning of the show Uh, you know matt is now running a ministry

Full -time caregiver for his wife taking on her responsibilities of cleaning cooking all that It's it's a lot.

So, um be Okay, I do see the charisma. Okay. I see it.

So it's the second item there on your calendar. Okay. Gotcha um, so be praying for matt be praying for justin as he is, you know, he

When matt said he might he wasn't going to be here Justin decided he's going to spend time with his family since he's leaving for madagascar for two weeks.

So be praying for both of them uh next week I uh, we will have on um, melissa lex who you saw in the comments from Thoroughly equipped podcast amy russo from grace and peace radio and we're going to be talking about is the question of is feminism enslaving women

Now that sounds It is it would not be yes, it's contradictory, but it's not and so that's what we're going to be talking about with the first second third wave of feminism and see that the third wave of feminism is actually

Doing everything against what the first wave was actually for so Men, too. Say that again.

It's enslaving men, too. Yeah So That'll be next week

So you guys come back and remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god