Conversation with Roman Catholic

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Hey man, can I ask you a question real fast? Yes, of course. Well, I'm pro -life, as you probably guessed. You could be, yeah.

00:06

I'm pro -life, as you probably guessed. We already talked a little bit, so... We're just asking, I mean, a pretty basic question, it seems like, but in regards to abortion, is abortion murder?

00:17

What would you say to that? Yes, of course. Okay. Should I... You want to fill that out a little bit?

00:23

Fill it out a little bit. Tell us why. I think it's murder because, of course, I mean...

00:30

Life, in my opinion, begins with the... How's it called in English? I mean,

00:36

I'm from Germany, but how's it called in English? I mean, life begins from...

00:42

Deception. Conception, okay. How do we know that? I mean, of course,

00:49

I can tell you, as I'm a Christian, I can relate to the Bible, you know what I mean.

00:54

Okay, yeah. So, but... Do you know Ben Shapiro, for example? I do. He's really nice.

01:00

We just interviewed him on our show, yeah. Yes, he said something really good. He said, if you...

01:05

When they found something on the Mars, for example, on the planet, they say, I will find life. For every cell, they found the same life.

01:13

But when it comes to abortion, nothing is life, you know what I mean? Or just from the birth, you know?

01:19

So, I mean, a cell is also life, I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because something was created, so...

01:30

And if you kill it, if you kill a cell, it's also murder, I think. I mean, you take the life or the possibility of life.

01:40

Yeah, right. You don't even have the choice to live. And I think it's murder. That's right. I'm with you.

01:45

I'm in 100 % agreement on that. So, maybe just take it a step further. You said you have a biblical worldview, a

01:51

Christian worldview. That's your foundation for how you know that this is murder. Absolutely. Right? Okay.

01:57

But you can also, scientifically, I think you can explain it, you know? So, it's not only because many people just relearned the

02:05

Bible. They say, it's written in the Bible, so it's not allowed. But it's also not good, you know what I mean? Right. Because also, as Ben Shapiro said, every...

02:13

Every of God's commitments are not there without sense, you know what I mean? They have sense.

02:18

They are there to protect us. So, I think you can also describe it scientifically.

02:26

Yeah, absolutely. I'm with you. I think as a Christian, we get all of it. We get the fact that the child is image of God.

02:31

So, you can't, you know, you can't kill them. You can't murder them. But also, science verifies, like you said, biology.

02:37

That that child is human from conception. Somewhere, I read a sign which is really good. It destroys the baby, but also the woman.

02:45

You know what I mean? Yeah. Because, for example, have you ever heard of the post -abortion syndrome? Yes. Oh, yes.

02:51

So, and I've heard every woman who had an abortion suffers once in her life from this syndrome, you know?

02:58

Even maybe 20 years or 40 years later, you know? But once in her life, she would suffer from it. Right. So, I think we should not only, of course, first of all, take care of the baby, but also, of course, of the woman.

03:10

I'm with you. And the other problem is, I've heard, I know, I don't know whether you've heard of it, in many cases, the men are guilty because they do not stay to the woman.

03:21

You know what I mean? Right. That's a problem. So, in many, many cases, I've heard of that the woman gets pregnant.

03:28

She doesn't know what to do. Then she go to the man who's like the father. But he doesn't support her, you know?

03:35

Right. He doesn't support her. That's a problem. He wants her to get an abortion, essentially. Because, of course, he doesn't carry the baby, you know?

03:40

Right. He doesn't feel the connection, let's say, to the baby. That's a problem. So, let me ask you this.

03:46

I'm curious to see how you'd respond. So, someone that commits murder, right? I mean, we see in our country all the time, women on the news that, you know...

03:55

In the States or what? In the States, right? They'll kill their children, you know? They'll drown them, you know, in the bathtub,

04:02

God forbid. Or they'll abandon them in a dumpster. They'll leave them, right? They'll kill their children. And then those same women are convicted of a crime, right?

04:09

They're convicted of murder. So, what would you say to the person that commits the crime of abortion, that murders their unborn child?

04:17

What should happen to that person? It's really good and a really interesting question. Because, do you know what I think?

04:23

The problem is many of them don't even know what they're doing when they abort the child. Do you know what

04:28

I mean? Okay. It's like... Why don't you think they know? I... Do you know why they don't know it? Because the media, let's say, or the society doesn't tell it.

04:36

Okay. That it's murder. You know what I mean? Yes. They would illegalize this act.

04:42

Okay. Like abortion. And if they would explain to the women, let's say, or to the people that it's murder, then they would get the conscience that it's murder.

04:51

You know what I mean? Uh -huh. And then they would not do it anymore. But I think the problem is they don't know what to do.

04:57

As Jesus said, forgive them if they don't know what they're doing. That's the problem. Because if nobody tells you that it's wrong, then you don't know really.

05:03

So, you think the problem is lack of evidence? Exactly. Lack of convincing, ultimately, is the issue.

05:08

So, tell me what you would say to this. Because, again, in my nation, this has been going on for decades now. Abortion is legal.

05:14

Women actually have clinics that they go to that walk in and get the abortion. Very, yeah, you're already aware.

05:20

So, I stand outside of those clinics every week. Nice. And I plead with those women not to go in and murder their children.

05:25

The same, Munich. Oh, praise God. So, I mean, here's what they say to me. They say, I know it's a baby.

05:32

I should still have the right to kill my child. At that point, they're not arguing with me any longer.

05:38

About the humanity of the child. No, no. What would you say in that case? How to argue with them, you mean?

05:44

What should be, should there be repercussions? Should there be something that happens? Just like the woman that kills her two -year -old, who's in full awareness of that, and the woman that knows it's a child, is not arguing with me that it's a baby.

05:57

Yeah, do you know why? I told you the same. Because society doesn't tell them that it's a baby. But they just told me that they know it's a baby.

06:02

Really? Yeah. And it's weird. But then, have you asked them why are you doing it then? If you know that it's a baby.

06:07

I can't afford my child. I can't afford to take care of another child. That's what they'll say. They can give it to adoption, you know what I mean?

06:13

I mean, there's so many, I don't know how it is in the States, but I know in Germany, for example, there are much more couples,

06:19

Right. who are willing to adopt a child, children, Right. than there are children,

06:25

Yeah. who could be adopted. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's a problem. You have to tell them facts. Because some people, they cannot...

06:33

You mean like, we'll help you, we'll provide adoption, those kinds of things? Yes, because, I don't know, because in Germany, for example, you can tell them there are so many wealthy families who are willing to adopt children.

06:45

Yeah. They can afford the adoption. Yeah. And also the uprising of the children. You know what

06:50

I mean? Yeah. I mean, it shouldn't be a problem because the selection of those families is really careful.

06:56

Yeah. I agree. I think the church should be intimately involved in the care of the orphan.

07:01

I think the church should be the ones that are doing these kinds of things. The state shouldn't be involved. I don't think that's their jurisdiction to begin with.

07:08

I think the church should be responsible. But the reason I ask the question is because there seems to be maybe just a little bit of an inconsistency there because these women, what they tell me is that they're in full knowledge.

07:19

They're not in doubt. They're not confused. They know it's a human being. They still believe that they should have the right to do it.

07:25

And I can stand out there and offer them help all day. I can stand out there and say, we'll adopt your baby.

07:30

We'll care for you. We'll financially provide. And they say, no, I need to go do this.

07:38

What should, if we're going to be consistent from a legal standpoint, in terms of crime, in terms of justice for that child, who we agree is made in the image of God, and you cannot take their life, what should be the penalty for that person at that point?

07:53

It's a really difficult question, you know. But if they know it, I mean, maybe almost, let's say, not the same, maybe almost the same as if she had told me she kills her two -year -old baby, a child.

08:07

But... Did you say it's not the same? It's the same then. No, because I thought they don't know what they're doing.

08:13

Yeah. If they wouldn't know what they're doing, they would say, OK, we cannot punish them because they don't know what they're doing.

08:19

Well, the thing is, even if I didn't have that evidence, even if I wasn't standing outside, seeing it with my own eyes, them say these terrible things, you know, because I can't imagine that a woman would do that.

08:29

But it's real. It happens every week. As I stand out there. But even God's Word says in Romans chapter 2, it says that God's given us all a conscience.

08:38

Exactly. Right? What I've thought about now at this moment. So our hope there is to go there and confirm what they already know, not tell them something they don't know, because we all know

08:48

God. He's made himself evident. He's given us a conscience to know right from wrong. Exactly. And we are violators of that conscience.

08:55

Romans chapter 2 says that even if we've never heard the Ten Commandments, thou shalt not murder, the work of the law is still written on our hearts.

09:04

So we know what God commands us. So even if I stood outside and I never heard a woman say that, I would know that that woman is in full knowledge of what she's doing.

09:12

She's not a victim. She's not unknowing about that. Exactly, yeah. What do you say? But, you know, it's always difficult, because if you...

09:20

Especially in this case. But, of course, if the society... I mean,

09:26

I think, first of all, we should maybe do laws against it. Like, maybe in Ireland, because...

09:31

Great. Maybe, maybe. You think to be consistent, there should be repercussions.

09:36

There should be a punishment that fits the crime. Yes, of course. Because if you told me, tell me, that many of them know what they're doing, then yes, of course.

09:44

Because if they don't know, I would say, okay, you could blame the society. I agree. I'm totally with you.

09:51

But if they know it, then of course. So last question. Where should we get the standard that prescribes the proper punishment for someone that commits murder?

09:58

Where should we go to find that? It's interesting. You mean, like, the... Where would I point to? Where would

10:04

I go and say, here, here's what we should do to bring justice to the situation? It's really interesting, you know, because it's a really interesting question.

10:11

I mean, maybe, maybe we should... You mean according to abortion, for example, or...

10:17

Specifically to that issue. So, woman commits murder, murders her unborn child, she's in full knowledge, she said,

10:24

I had to do it, she goes through with it. At that point, what do we say in terms of going towards legislators?

10:31

You can say... I would say to annoy you, there are so many other options. Oh, of course.

10:37

Of course, I'm saying after the fact. So she goes through with the abortion. What should the punishment be legally?

10:43

Where do we go? What do we point to? From the first... I mean... Because I think, as I told you, it's from conception.

10:49

You mean from which time, point of time, for example? Let me clarify. I think the source of justice that we should use to point to, that say, what do we do with someone that murders another human being, is the word of God.

11:04

Yes. It's the Bible. Yeah. We point to the Bible and we say, here's what God says. If you take a life, is it

11:11

God's law or man's law? What are we pointing to? That's what I'm getting at. Yes, but it's always really difficult, you know, because...

11:18

I mean... I mean, do you know who was the first, as we say, secular person who divided state and religion?

11:29

Are you referring to the separation of church and state? In this case, yes. In general, yes, but not because I'm anti...

11:37

I mean, I'm Catholic. I'm pro -Catholic, you know. Right. But I think it's only...

11:42

I think that... I think, in my opinion, the church should advise the government.

11:50

Amen. Really, but the church should not make commitments or laws for the state because Jesus said, give...

11:58

Give the Caesar what is Caesar's, right? So, I'm with you. I think that's an important distinction. So, the church has the spiritual authority, they have the

12:06

Word of God and it's their role to speak into the magistrate and have them, you need to obey God and His Word and it's the magistrate's job to uphold justice.

12:14

So, that's my question. What's the magistrate's obligation according to the Word of God? What do they have to do with someone that commits murder?

12:21

What's God's standard for that? As I know from the Old Testament... You say testament, testimony, how do you call it in English?

12:28

Old Testament, right? Yeah, Old Testament, New Testament even. Yes, Old Testament. I don't know, as I know...

12:35

What's God's prescription? What happens if you murder someone? They make, like, also for cities, like small places for murderers or, like, for...

12:45

people who committed criminals. What you're referring to is inadvertent murder. They would have sanctuary cities for those people.

12:52

But someone that commits murder, God says, if you kill another image -bearer of God, you forfeit your right to live.

12:58

That's what God says in His Law. It's also in the Old Testament. Well, we know that in the New Testament even, you have someone like the

13:04

Apostle Paul. He goes before... He goes before the Caesars and Acts, the governors and all that and he says, if I've done anything that is worthy of death,

13:14

I do not object to dying. So you have the Apostle Paul affirming the death penalty, essentially.

13:20

He says, if I've done anything worthy of dying, the death penalty, I don't object to dying. You have

13:25

Jesus Himself saying, I have come not to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them.

13:31

Right. So, God's Law is binding on all of us. It's binding on our conscience. And even though society doesn't reflect that right now, like, my nation is not reflecting that, the

13:40

Law of God. It's still our job as the Church to speak into that realm and say, what's the standard?

13:47

What does God prescribe for someone that murders someone? Does that make sense? Of course. But you know what I think?

13:52

I mean, I'm not so pro -death penalty because I always think every sinner has the right to repent to God, you know what

13:59

I mean? Um... And that's what I think. If he doesn't want to repent, of course, then it's a bit...

14:04

Then he shouldn't... Well, you're making a good distinction here. The distinction is, I want salvation. I want repentance for the woman that commits abortion.

14:12

I want her to know Jesus. But there also is the area of justice. You and I would stand together and agree.

14:18

We would say, for example, if someone came down the street right now and they stole your wallet. Yes. They took it right out of your pants.

14:25

And then they walked down the street and someone preached the Gospel to them and they came to Christ right there on the spot and they repented of their sin.

14:31

Exactly. Do they have to pay back your money? Doesn't have to. Just if you want, but...

14:36

They don't have to give your money back even though they stole it. You wouldn't order law enforcement to make them uphold the law and return your money?

14:43

I mean, if he wants, but... I'm more happy about that he repented to God, you know, that I bought the money.

14:49

So it doesn't have to, I mean... Well, God's view of justice is such that even though he can bring salvation and repentance through Jesus, he also cares about victims.

14:58

He also establishes justice for those that have been violated. So, that's my point. So, thank you so much for talking to me, man.

15:05

I really appreciate it. I think it was a beneficial conversation. Thank you very much. But where are you from, from the

15:10

States? Arizona. Phoenix, Arizona. Phoenix, I know it. But you have also, like, European roots, or...

15:17

Yes, yes. German, yes. Maybe a little bit of Irish in there somewhere. You don't look

15:23

Irish, that's why. Yeah, no. But your family's for a long time in the

15:29

States, so... Yes, yes, yes. My family, a couple of generations, we're... Yeah, we've been there so long that...

15:35

Yeah. I'm, like, from Munich, but my parents are from Croatia, you know. Yeah. From Croatia. Oh, nice. I was born in Munich and grew up in Munich.

15:42

Wow. Yeah, but it's difficult. But do you know what? I think the States are even better because, like, the

15:48

States are extreme. It's, like, really extreme. You know, you have a really, really big pro community.

15:57

Yeah. And also a big liberal community, like, let's say, the government. Yeah, right. Well, my nation has this right now going on for the last four decades.

16:07

And we're 60 million babies deep in terms of the bloodshed. So we come here not out of a spirit of...

16:14

Every year, seven million, I've heard. Not that we come here, yeah. It's... Planned Parenthood. It's, yeah, Planned Parenthood does a good deal of it.

16:21

So, I mean, the reason that we're here is to encourage the Irish church to come alongside and help and equip them, ultimately, not coming out of a place of, you guys need to be what we are.

16:32

It's nice, yeah, but it's really interesting because it's more or less quite Catholic here, but they allowed, for example, the same -sex marriage, you know.

16:39

Yeah. Yeah, we saw that. In Croatia, for example, thanks to God, we rejected it. I don't know whether you heard of it.

16:45

In Croatia, that was, like, four years ago, also, like, a referendum. Yeah.

16:51

According to the same -sex marriage, we rejected it. Yeah. Because I have a Croatian passport, so I can vote in Croatia.

16:57

And thanks to God, we rejected it, you know, so... So, how long have you been Catholic? Let's say, like,

17:05

Catholic, we can maybe say six years. Okay, years. Before I was, like, traditional Catholic, you know what I mean?

17:10

Okay. Or, like, you know, because we Croats, we are, in general, Catholics. That's really... I can't compare

17:16

Croatia to Ireland. We are, like, quite Catholics, but more formal, maybe, you know?

17:21

Yeah. Like, traditionally. But, in fact, we do not practice it.

17:27

We do not practice it as it should be, you know what I mean? Interesting. But I think

17:32

I repent, like, to God, like, six years ago, like, really. Yeah. I had always, like, times, like, okay, more, not much anymore.

17:41

But, like, since six years, you could say it's, like, really... Yeah. Well, I just... I was curious, because it's always interesting having conversations like this with, you know, those that are

17:50

Catholic about in terms of being consistent in terms of what happens to, you know, someone that does this.

17:56

What should happen? What should we call it? How should we talk about it? Yes, but, you know, many people had, like, certain happenings in their life, you know, which led to their dependence, you know what

18:08

I mean? Mm -hmm. So, in my case also. It's always... I think always, in general, if you have, like, a bad situation in your life at the moment or some bad experiences, you're more open to God, you know what