Conversation With Curious LDS Couple

The Identity of Jesus and the LDS View of Premortal Existence

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, this is just one of them we have eight different ones are how you guys going to general conference today. Oh, yeah. Nice was it has been good. Oh. We're going later. Oh, okay. My name is Andrew, by the way, what's your name?

Victoria nice. Did you guys grow up in the LDS organization? Huh, you did in Utah.

Where at?

California. Wow, you stayed LDS in California of all places. Where in California. Okay, like San Diego ish or Yeah around there. All right. So where'd you go on your mission? You didn't go on one. Did you get a calling and go to the MTC and just not like Yeah, gotcha, okay.

Well, I'm an evangelical Christian, right. So. What do you think the biggest differences are between an LDS person and myself?

I know they people say there's like these little nuances that are different, but I don't think there's too much. Okay. What about you?

Yeah, I don't know to be honest. You don't know. Yeah, I wouldn't say I Wouldn't say I know too many crazy differences. Oh, okay.

Okay, let me let me give you some questions just to see if I can flush it out to see what your beliefs are. Cuz a lot of times right now LDS people they believe different things. All right, so. Who do you think Jesus is?

All right. I think that's one of the most important questions. Save your son of God. Okay, like ontologically his being what about it? Right good question. So is Jesus a created being? Right. Did he come into existence at a point in time or has he always been the same yesterday today and forever?

What do you think?

Yeah.

He's always been the same. I Don't know. What about before he took on flesh. As far as I understand he was still there.

Right a premortal existence isn't. This is what I'm getting at. So, can you clarify what that is then? So like so when you say son of God, what do you mean by that?

I guess.

Right.

Because this is what's interesting about like evangelical Christians in the LDS as we say the same words. But we have totally different definitions for the words. So we want to make sure we're getting our definitions.

So we can understand our distinctions and differences. So.

Yeah.

Is this a breakdown into the Trinitarian view of stuff like Jesus is God, but not God?

The Trinity, Elohim, and the LDS Premortal Family

Yeah, it can definitely go in that realm. So the Trinitarian conversation would be that there is one being of God, right that exists in three persons God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The Son is not the Father. The Son is not the Spirit. The Holy Spirit's not the Father. The Holy Spirit's not The Son essentially, it's that tell maybe you understand in more LDS terms is that Jesus is Elohim, right?

The Father is Elohim. The Spirit is Elohim. Jesus is Jehovah. The Father is Jehovah. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah. So when we think about the Son of God going back to that conversation I would assume right coming from the LDS organization that you would say that there's Elohim and let's say then there's also Heavenly Mother.

We won't get into a conversation about how many Heavenly Mothers. We'll just assume one. Okay, there's Elohim. And Heavenly Mother they have spiritual intercourse in the premortal existence and they give birth to a child the firstborn.

That's how you would interpret firstborn to be Jesus Christ, right? Then the seconds Lucifer. So we have a spiritual pre-existence heavenly intercourse and then Jesus is he comes into being. The Bible says this though about Jesus in John chapter 1 who she might have been hearing me talk to the other gentleman.

It says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. It says all things were created through him. There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through him and then in Colossians 1 it also says that Jesus.

He created all things on heaven and on earth visible and invisible. Whether thrones principalities or powers all things were created through him. Then it says he's before all things and in him all things hold together.

So the Bible says that Jesus isn't the offspring of Elohim and Heavenly Mother instead. He created Lucifer. So I say one of the biggest differences is the first one. What do you think about that if you're to test what the extra revelation is to previous revelation?

Yeah, well, you know God created us right so we have we should be interested in those things I'd say you still have the ability to think about it. You know.

Yeah.

You know, so that's all I can say.

Absolutely good. I recommend it guys like read the New Testament for what it is. We're actually warned in 2nd Corinthians 11. It says Paul tells the church in Corinth. He says this there's gonna be people who come and they preach a different Jesus a different gospel who accept a different spirit.

It's 2nd Corinthians 11 for so my question is is then well Paul's telling me there's people who preach different Jesus's not like there actually is a different Jesus, but there's people who use the same words, but they mean something different.

And so my worry for you guys is is if you get Jesus wrong, you're also gonna get the gospel wrong.

Baptism, Covenant, and Justification by Faith

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and and like a lot of different churches kind of say the same thing or like like. And I know your church has a different view of maybe Christ in the other churches, right?

No, we all try to get to like that truth, right? That's that's. I love it. You're thinking like Joseph Smith, right? You're thinking like what Joseph Smith says in one of his his visions.

Yeah, so.

No, I get what you're saying, can I can I answer it? Yeah, so Joseph Smith says the same thing. He's like I visited all of these different denominations, right and they all preach something different, right?

Then he gets the first vision account where he says that all professors are corrupt. The creeds are an abomination. And that he has the one true revelation that's coming from God the Father and God the Son.

The thing is though is that the Protestant? Sect of the church. With my. I'm a reformed Baptist, right? I know Presbyterians. I know other Baptists. I know Lutherans. None of us disagree on the essentials of the gospel.

So it's actually a misnomer to think that we believe different things about Jesus. We don't. Yeah, oh gotcha so the Roman Catholic Church actually we have the same definition of who Jesus is and the Trinity.

We differ in forms of the gospel, right? Like the Roman Catholic Church is actually very similar to Mormonism where there's specific merits and things that you must obtain like a righteousness not of Jesus, but of something else or there's like a.

You know purgatory where you're gonna go to purgatory before you can enter into Heaven to get rid of some of the sins you still have on earth. So there's similarities there.

But.

Do you know the third article of faith in Mormonism? Yeah, it's. We believe that all mankind may be saved Through the atonement of Jesus Christ by the obedience of the gospel ordinances and principles.

What do you think that means?

Yeah.

I think a lot of people a lot of things that people are bothered by. Are the works like doing certain things in this life? Yeah, and not having like outside of let's say baptism because I think every church agrees that you need baptism, right?

I do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation. Yeah, so this is the thing I think baptism is something where we want to obey Christ in but prior to my baptism. Is it shown in Acts chapter 10 actually that I receive the Holy Spirit before I'm baptized, right?

So God takes the heart of an individual a heart of stone replaces it with the heart of flesh puts his spirit within you. So in my baptism, all I'm doing is representing to the world my physical union with Christ.

It says I've been buried with Christ in my baptism, but it says I've been raised through faith. Not the physical working or my action. It's actually my faith in Jesus Christ that saves me not the water right or not the act.

Right, well the covenant is actually one that God fulfilled because he made it and he's the one who fulfills it. So you can go all the way back with Abraham and God is the one who cut the covenant with Abraham.

And he says that he is the one who will fulfill his promise. So actually my salvation is dependent upon Jesus who fulfilled the covenant to the father and then he gives me his righteousness. Through faith in him.

So when I stand before God the Father, I'm justified which is declared righteous. Purely through the work of Jesus Christ and nothing that I've done in Ephesians 2. I've given you a few Bible verses. I recommend pulling up John looking at chapter 1 really studying verses 1 1 through 3.

Okay in the prologue of John John chapter 1 and also go to Ephesians chapter 2 guys. It literally it can't spell it out more easy for you saying that it's nothing of your own. So that you have nothing to boast about that great grace is a gift from God not of your works so that no one can boast.

No, no, that's it that's a great question. So I would say if someone is saved if they have a heart of flesh now, I would urge them. Yes, let's get baptized because it's a physical representation of our union with Christ if someone's like no, I don't like that.

I hate the way that sounds. I would doubt that they actually have a circumcised heart. You know what I mean? They don't want to obey what Christ said. It's not salvific though, right? I'll give you an example.

So the thief on the cross have you ever heard of him? Yeah, was he baptized? He was not baptized. He just believed in Jesus Christ earlier was mocking him then he believes in Jesus Christ and Jesus says today you will be with me in paradise.

No baptism. Because it's holistic and it goes through and we're actually warned about any adding anything to the gospel. It says in Galatians, so here's the books again John chapter 1 Ephesians 2 and then I want you to read Galatians.

Galatians is Paul warning the church in Galatia. Because they've been influenced by this group of people called the Judaizers. Because there's Gentiles coming to faith and Gentiles weren't circumcised, right?

So the Judaizers were saying no in order to first believe in Christ. You need to be circumcised first you need to be circumcised and Paul goes. No, you don't need to be circumcised. He says if you add any one thing to the gospel.

Even if I or an angel from heaven comes to you and preaches to you a gospel contrary to the one that you have been taught. Let them be accursed and that was just circumcision.

How does.

Right because what we're talking about here is the topic of justification. How you're declared righteous before God through salvation in the gospel. So if we say in order to enter the highest level of heaven that you must be baptized.

It's the same as saying in order to enter the highest level of heaven you must be circumcised. You're adding to the gospel. And so you know what Paul told them and this is brutal guys. He said you might as well cut your whole member off.

So if someone was to come to him and say that you must be baptized. He said you might as well hold them underwater until they die and he doesn't mean go kill anybody. What he's saying though is it's that serious?

Because the Bible says my righteousness my own works are nothing but filthy rags before God. He doesn't want them because I'm denying the work of Jesus Christ and I'm saying actually my sinful tainted works.

Have some form of righteousness that'll stand before you. He says no, I sent my son for you because like it says in Romans 3, no one is good. No one seeks after God. No one understands God all have gone astray right, the venom of asps is under our lips out of our throats is.

Our throats are an open grave is what it says. That's this that's mankind in our fallen condition. But then God himself Jesus Christ perfect sinless. He comes and he's perfectly obedient to the law so that he dies in my faith in him.

He takes my sin upon him and gives me his righteousness. Can I ask you something? What is better than the righteousness of Christ? Nothing, the answer is nothing. But they teach no there is better. They say this they say that the chief end of man is not to glorify God and enjoy him forever is to become a god.

And be glorified forever. That's what they teach that one day. You'll become a god. Lorenzo Snow. Do you know the quote as As man is God once was as God is man may become. That's not the gospel. The Bible says in Isaiah 43 10 before me there was no God formed.

Neither shall there be after me. I even I am the Lord beside me. There is no Savior. Isaiah 44 6 I am the first and I am the last beside me. There is no God. They teach you you can become one one day.

God says you never can. And that's my worry right to go. Not only to say Jesus your death isn't enough. I must do X Y Z. So then when you die and stand before God you say I did X Y Z. So make me a god.

That's scary to me. I don't want that for anybody guys not for you guys either. Praise God all glory to God. I love you guys. I care about you guys.

You probably have a bunch of very interesting things. I like the way your knowledge and like the other stuff that you're mentioning.

The LDS Claim to Become Gods and the Garden of Eden Parallel

So most people were there describing about one little tiny. Are you talking about like the streets creatures? Yeah. Yeah, I like how knowledgeable you are. I appreciate that. No, I care about you guys.

Yeah.

Praise God, no I that's all glory to God because my heart really guys is To see you come to the knowledge of the true and living God that there's nothing better than Jesus in Organization can't do it for you.

Obeyance to the gospel ordinances and principles are just gonna take you further away from God's grace. It says in Galatians that if you seek to be justified by the law that the grace of God has no effect on you.

I Want you to stew on those things? We don't need anything other than the New Testament in the Old Testament to know who God is. Right. It says that Jesus himself says in John 17 17 sanctify them with the truth.

Thy word is truth and even says heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words by no means will ever pass away. They tell you that the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts. Right. Do you know about the story in the garden with Adam and Eve?

Tell me about it. Just just what happened. So God makes a command right he says something.

Keep going.

So, why don't they listen what happens. Do you remember what he tells her. Okay, this is good stuff ready. So what he tells her because she because he comes and tempts her and she says no no I can't eat of it.

God says I can't eat of it. He goes did God say that? And he says guess what if you eat of it, you'll become just like him. Hmm, that's maybe that's why he doesn't want you to eat the fruit. I want you to think about this with the Mormon organization.

Bibles missing many plain and precious parts. Did God really say it? Oh, yeah, and guess what if you follow us. You can become just like God. It's the very same lie in the garden and we're so tempted to follow it because that's our carnal nature.

We hear that and we're like that sounds so great. But it's the same lie. It's the same thing we got to be able to trust God's Word right because it's an objective standard outside of my emotional experience.

That can tell me what is truth. I'm a fallen human being so in my relationship with God I can't truly have that relationship with him through my own emotional experience. It's God's Word in his spirit that breaks through it, right?

Like you're told to read the Book of Mormon and to pray about it whether to know if it's true or not. The Bible does not explain that anywhere in James chapter 1 when it says to ask of God and he will grant you the wisdom.

The context of the book of James is talking to believers who are booing who are being persecuted in Jerusalem. That they're being killed that they're to have wisdom how to undergo persecution has nothing to do about knowledge.

It's wisdom to how to endure persecution not to say hey, I'm gonna pray about this. And now there's a new revelation that contradicts previous revelation just because I feel something now it supersedes the rest.

That's taking James out of context. Yeah, read it read it in context because what they like to do a lot and you probably know this you went to pro. Did you go to seminary in the morning? Sure. Yeah, they teach you proof texts.

That's what they're called. They'll just they won't make you read the whole book of the Bible in context. They're just gonna give you certain verses and they're gonna say now this is the interpretation memorize these verses.

They're just taking things out of context. It's called proof text and when we read the Bible, we want to read it in context. So if anyone's giving you a proof text, you know what you need to do go read 10 verses before.

And you're gonna go. Yeah, you're gonna go wait a second something's not adding up here. Something's not adding up. Because I don't want you to be deceived. Satan is a deceiver and in 2nd Corinthians 11, which I quoted to you earlier.

You know what? It says about the people who preach a false Jesus who teach a different gospel who accept a different spirit. It says this it says that they disguise themselves as workers of righteousness.

So it looks like they do good things. It looks like they do good things. But all of the things that they're doing are done in a different God's name and it says that their ends. Correspond to their deeds and guess what the end is.

It's death. So if I'm not doing something for God to glorify him, but I'm doing something to achieve something before God. No longer am I glorifying God in my action? I want to become a god one day. So no matter what you do God looks at that.

He goes you're denying the work of my son whom I sent to die on the cross for your sins. That's it. That's the gospel, right? It's a simple message. It's a simple message if you look at any other religion other than biblical Christianity in the world.

It's this you cannot be saved by your faith alone. You need your works in order to be saved. Jehovah's Witnesses the LDS order in is it organization. Buddhism like you name it? Every single thing is X Y Z is what needs to be achieved in order to reach a high level of consciousness.

Let's get this new deeper understanding of God. You must do these things. The Bible says no. Just pick up your cross and follow me die to your flesh be humble know that you can't do it. Jesus did it for you.

Closing Appeal to Read the New Testament and Investigate the Gospel

Yeah, absolutely, did you get one of these. I did. Okay, guys, seriously, I really want you to investigate like if we are people of the truth. We want to investigate. Okay, do you guys live here? Man, so you're visiting.

Oh, yeah, that's right. You are from. I didn't know you were from there. I know you were there once but. Yeah, sorry if I didn't listen to that. Dang guys.

Yeah.

No, I loved it. Hey, I appreciate you guys. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me. I'm here just to get in those conversations, you know. Thank you, brother. Yeah you too.