July 11, 2023 Show with Luke Saint on “The Sound Doctrine of Theocracy”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man

sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living

on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio

.com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this

11th day of July, 2023.

And I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today who is the son, or

one of the sons, of one of my favorite guests who you've all heard interviewed on

the program before, and I'm speaking of Joel Saint.

I have his son, one of his sons, Luke Saint, on the program today.

He is an author, and he's the chairman of Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society, and today we are going to be

addressing Luke's book, The Sound Doctrine of Theocracy, or Statism

and the Christian Mind.

We're also going to be talking about an upcoming three -day event in Lancaster,

Pennsylvania,

featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Luke Saint.

Thanks for having me on, Chris.

I appreciate it.

And it's Lancaster, right?

Lancaster, yeah.

The emphasis is on the stir, Lancaster.

Lancaster.

I am, as everyone who lives in Pennsylvania now realizes, not a native of

Pennsylvania.

I am a native of New York who just happens to be living in Pennsylvania ever since 2014 after

relocating here.

So I still have the New York accent for everything, and that even includes my

hometown of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which the locals call Carlisle.

So I don't know if I'll ever want to pronounce it that way, but Luke, first of all,

tell us about Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society.

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society was started probably a little over a decade ago with some guys

who wanted to—I think it was started as a Bible study, and these guys

wanted to basically talk about what they felt the church was not addressing.

They wanted to address things that they felt the church was ignoring, and they were

frustrated that the Bible talks about all areas of life and that the church was not talking about

all areas of life.

The church was putting much of the lamp underneath the bushel, and so they got together in Bible

studies, and they were talking about—the biggest one, the big heavy hitter was politics.

And so these guys would get together and talk about what does the Bible have to say about politics, what does the Bible have to say about money, what does the Bible have to say about

taxation.

And they realized out of this that they wanted to start an organization that would come along side and

help churches and pastors in addressing these things.

And that's how the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society was started.

We found out very quickly—I think I joined back in 2016, I think is when I joined,

and we found out very quickly that the churches and the pastors did not

want to be helped.

They knew about where the church was being silent, and most of them, not all of them, most of them wanted it

that way.

They didn't really want any

sort of attention given to the areas that the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society was frustrated with that they were ignoring.

So we decided to basically—instead of cursing the darkness,

we decided to light a candle.

We became an organization that does conferences, and we even did some parachurch ministries.

And Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society is theologically reformed and

confessional and theonomic and postmillennial, right?

Yes, absolutely, we are.

Yes.

I mean, not all of us.

I mean, we don't all—I mean, we're all—I believe we're all postmillennial.

I believe we're all theonomic, all the board members anyway.

But other than that, I don't think—you know, we've got some Baptists, we've got some Reformed Baptists, we're all Reformed, but we've got some Presbyterians in there.

So I'm not sure if we'd all fit that category, those categories, but, you know, we're ballparking it at least.

With the frequency of postmillennial and theonomic guests on Iron

Trip and Zion Radio, people have been wondering in my audience if I have also jumped the

amillennial ship and become postmillennial and theonomic.

I have not yet done that, in spite of the frequency of my guests being of

that persuasion.

But it just so happens that I have always, ever since I became a born -again believer, had

close friendships with postmillennialists and theonomists.

And in fact, the late R .J. Rushdooney was a client of mine

on WMCA Radio, an affiliate of Salem Media.

I had created a program called The Voice of Sovereign Grace, which was aired nightly, Monday through Friday.

And every night there was a different individual whose sermon was aired, and all of

the hosts, obviously, were Reformed.

Obviously, that's a no -brainer, judging by the title of the show, The Voice of Sovereign Grace.

But the Calcedon Foundation sponsored one night a week,

and it was not a sermon.

It was an interview conducted with R .J. Rushdooney,

and the individual performing that interview was Steve Schlissel of

Messiah's Congregation in Brooklyn, New York.

And so I had gotten to know Brother Rushdooney a little bit and had him

as a client, and have always benefited from the magazine, The

Calcedon Report, and yet still have not yet jumped ship and

become a theonomist.

But I hold it as an orthodox option and

the eschatology associated with it, whereas there are, unfortunately, people

who agree with you and I, Luke, on every area of theology.

But when it comes to that issue, for some reason there are Reformed brethren

who really go ballistic when it comes to hearing about somebody becoming a post

-millennialist or a theonomist, and I have never understood that.

But I think a lot of it is because—.

I think a lot of that has—.

Go ahead.

I was going to say, I think a lot of that has to do with the world's goddess on the ropes, that if you subscribe

to a certain—especially theonomy, if you subscribe to theonomy, then you want to chop off

people's hands and put women in burkas and stuff like that.

And they have people thinking that way, that as soon as you say that word, that that's what you want.

And so the Christian community doesn't want to, by and large,

countenance the law of God as an option.

We're just like, if you even countenance the law of God as an option, that means I'm toying with

the idea of putting women in burkas and chopping people's hands

off.

And we often associate those kinds of things with Muslim law, and we say, well, that's a theocracy, which is not

a biblical theocracy anyway.

And we just don't even want to go there.

We don't even want to countenance it because we're too afraid to even ask the question, does the Bible even address

justice?

And we've bought this idea that, in the back of our minds, I know it's there because I've had conversations with people, and push comes to shove, and you

get them on the ropes, and you say, hey, listen, is the law of God just or is it unjust?

And when push comes to shove, the answer is it's unjust.

It's unjust.

That's in the back of their minds saying the law of God is just unjust.

That's what it is.

God gave us bad ideas.

His ideas were dumb, and it was good for them.

I don't even think it was to say it was good for them.

They'd say it was bad for them.

They'd say, I'd hate to be an Israelite back in Old Testament Israel and all that kind of thing.

So I think as soon as you say post -millennial or theonomic, I think people have this

pre -wired idea of what it is to be a theonomist because the

secular culture has us on the ropes even before we even get to the conversation.

Yes.

Obviously, there's a very similar phenomenon with merely being a Calvinist with

those outside of the Reformed faith.

People have a knee -jerk reaction to Calvinism in

general because of the slanderous false stereotypes that they

have been brainwashed into believing.

Most of the folks who are vehemently anti -Calvinist likely have never read a page

from a Calvinist book and have only read or heard the anti

-Calvinist rhetoric from their heroes.

So people really have got to take a breath, all of us, even Reformed folk.

We've got to take a breath and make sure that we are accurately understanding what somebody is

saying when they identify themselves in a certain way and describe their

theological and religious affiliation.

We have to make sure that we understand them accurately, especially when speaking about them

publicly because, unfortunately, a lot of slander goes on where people, even

sometimes well -intentioned people wanting to warn the flock, they wind up slandering people by saying things about a

particular group that isn't even true.

And we're not even allowed by God's law to bear false witness against heretics.

Not that we are not supposed to warn people about them, but we have to get our facts straight when we do.

And I've heard vehemently anti -Catholic fundamentalists, for

instance, who from pulpits have basically slandered

the Church of Rome.

When you don't need to slander the Church of Rome, there is enough heresy and

idolatry and superstition that truly exists in that religious system without making stuff

up.

I agree.

But I'm also excited, very excited, about a three -day event

that I am working on with Luke, his dad, and the folks at Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society,

September 15th, 16th, and 17th.

That's a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

This is featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and it is going to be

held.

We can now officially announce that this three -day event will be held at the

Spooky Nook Sports Meetings and Events in Mannheim,

Pennsylvania, which, according to Luke, is a gorgeous, magnificent

facility, so I'm looking forward to this.

And why don't you tell us about this three -day event, Luke?

We are super excited to get that event.

Spooky Nook is just a wonderful event.

When we were talking about venues initially, I think there were some board members who thought Spooky Nook,

and then we're just like, no, it's just too nice for us.

It's really too nice.

And here we are a couple weeks after we started looking for a venue.

We're looking at churches from 1975, and they're United Methodist churches, and they have Drag Queen Story out there, and

we're thinking about running that facility.

That's how bad it got.

We weren't seriously looking, but we were just talking about it.

We were looking at pictures, things like that.

We're like, man, where are we going to go?

And then one of our board members, Dave, who you interviewed, just said, hey, what about Spooky Nook?

And my sister, who's the executive secretary, said, okay, well, I'll take a look.

And it was totally this, well, I guess, what have we got to lose?

And then she called back.

She sent an email, said, hey, this is the only weekend that they don't have a sports event, and it's available,

and had a really great relationship with the customer service rep that they had there.

And thankfully, we just got all the paperwork finished yesterday, and we're ready and ready to go with

Spooky Nook.

It's a really nice facility, but that is going to be the host.

It's going to be hosting our Future of Christendom conference, and this year we're doing the Gospel at War.

We saw that there was another conference up in Canada, and they did the Church at War.

And we loved the title so much, but we didn't really want to steal their thunder.

So we titled it the Gospel at War because that's basically

where we're at right now, especially with the agendas and narratives of

secular culture and humanism.

People are starting to have conversations about the real problem around here.

It's not the conservatives.

It's not the Republicans.

It's the Christians.

And they're starting to get more specific, and that was always the goal.

That was always the goal, to put the focus on Christianity.

It was never to put the focus on conservatives.

I mean, that's a false battle.

That's liberals versus conservatives.

That's a false battle.

The real false battle is between the church and the state and the powers of righteousness and the powers of

darkness.

So that is the theme of our conference this year, and a special thanks to you, Chris, for hooking us up with

a communication between us and James White.

And I know you've done a lot of work behind the scenes, so we want to officially thank you for that,

Chris, and your role in getting this conference on its way.

My pleasure and my joy, and I am so excited about it.

I always love to be involved in events involving my dear friend, Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who I have known since 1995, a dear friend

who has dedicated one of his books to me, The Forgotten Trinity, who has been with me through thick

and thin, through times of rejoicing and times of tragedy in my life.

He has been an encouragement and comforter after the death of my father, after

the death of my dearly beloved

precious late wife, and the recent death of my oldest brother.

And he is just, I believe, bar none, the most gifted

debater of theology alive on the planet Earth.

He would never say that about himself, but I happen to believe without hesitation that it is true,

in addition to being one of the most brilliant theologians, and I am looking forward to this.

And I'm not going to mention the name of the possible debate opponent yet,

because it is not 100 solidified and confirmed, but I

am in the process of attempting to arrange a debate with an individual

who would be James White's opponent during this three -day event in Mannheim, Pennsylvania.

He is an individual who shares with us the

scriptural views of homosexuality, that it is a damnable sin,

that the physical exploration and

activity of this sin is prohibited by the scriptures

and is damnable if one does not repent of participating in it.

He does not believe in same -sex marriage, as we also do not

believe in this thing, which is really a fiction.

There is no such thing as a same -sex marriage.

But where the debate comes in is he believes that it is completely proper for

a same -sex attracted individual who professes to be a

Christian to identify himself or herself as a gay

Christian.

And so this is the proposed debate.

The actual debater, the candidate that I had approached, I approached quite a number of them.

The one who actually has accepted the challenge, we

still need to go through some conversations, or at least the board of Mid

-Atlantic Reformation Society has to have some meetings and conversations with whether or not

the honorarium that has been requested can or will be fulfilled.

And there may be some haggling going on there.

But we should know, according to Joel Saint, my guest's dad, we

should know by tomorrow night or the day after tomorrow at the latest whether or not we

can proceed with a 100 confirmed debate,

which will take place on Saturday, September 16th.

So go to midatlanticreformation .org for updates on this, midatlanticreformation

.org, and you can also go to futureofchristendom .org, futureofchristendom

.org, and the updates will be there as we have them.

You can also go to ironsharpensignradio .com and look for them there.

Just out of curiosity, I forgot what your dad's new title is, because he was

once the chairman of Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society.

That is now your title.

What is the title of your dad?

My dad is the executive director, actually.

We never had a chairman.

I was actually elected first as the position of chairman.

He was always the executive director.

I don't know how I got chairman in my information about your dad, but

I make mistakes all the time.

You've got to explain, do you know how Spooky Nook came up with that name?

It's on Spooky Nook Road, and I think the

road came before the warehouse.

It's an old warehouse that they repurposed.

It's on Spooky Nook Road, so I think the name came from the road that it's on.

I could be wrong about that.

Is it a spooky road?

Is there something ominous about it?

No, you're in beautiful Lancaster County.

There's cornfields right across the street there, and it's just such a beautiful area.

There's nothing spooky about it.

It's not exactly like Sleepy Hollow out there.

It's a beautiful area.

It's Manheim Township.

It's a really nice place.

There's nothing spooky about it.

I've got to do some research as to how that road got that name.

But anyway, when we come back from our first commercial break, we're going

to have Luke, before we enter into the subject of his book, The Sound

Doctrine of Theocracy, we're going to have Luke participate in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

tradition that we have where whenever we have a first -time guest who is a

Christian, which would be the vast majority of times, once in a blue moon I have a non -Christian

on who may have something to say that is of value to the body of Christ in spite of their

being a non -Christian.

But when we have a Christian on for the first time, we have that brother or sister in Christ give a

summary of their salvation testimony, which Luke will do when we come back from the first break.

If any of you have any questions for Luke, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail

.com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Luke Saint right after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my long -time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd.

On a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the

sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration

fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo

code G3ISIR.

That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd for the G3

National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while

you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your

30 discount off the registration fee.

I'm

Brian

McLaughlin,

president of the SecureComm Group, and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, access control,

and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties,

municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off

-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms.

We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall,

endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations,

call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355.

Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com.

This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and

kings.

We teach families to worship together as families.

Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of

God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ.

This is Pastor David Rees of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the

kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church.

Believe.

Build.

Fight.

PuritanPHX .com.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Andrew Rapport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Mark Rimaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Christopher Cookston, pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon,

and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

Here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support of

Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem

Society. Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring, or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry, created

exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers

has you covered.

No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the

process, and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design

technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs.

They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model, to photo -realistic image, to wax prototype model, to

the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making

any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed, and well beyond your

expectations.

Visit royaldiadem .com, that's royaldiadem .com, today.

Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife Bronnie, his business partner

and manager Brian Wilson, and the entire family thank you all for listening to, praying for,

and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget folks, royaldiadem .com is still

offering Iron Sharpens Iron Radio this mind -blowing offer.

They are going to give us 100 of the sale, or should I

say, of the profits, from any sale of jewelry to an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener who simply

mentions that they heard about royaldiadem .com from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

So, whether you are purchasing a piece of jewelry that they already have in stock at royaldiadem

.com, valued at $100 or more, or if you're having a custom -designed piece of jewelry

created, let's say you are getting engaged, you want an engagement ring custom design,

or let's say that you want to take your church logo, your parachurch ministry

logo, your seminary logo, your denomination logo, or whatever

else your imagination and creativity can conjure up in your mind, they will take what's in your brain

and turn it into a physical piece of jewelry that will blow your mind.

It will be breathtaking.

It will be stunning.

It will be a catcher of the attention of all

who see you and the reason for compliments that will be showered

upon you when people see these pieces of jewelry created by royaldiadem .com.

I have seen firsthand the mastery they have over custom -designing jewelry, and I can

assure you that you will not be disappointed because you are involved in every

single step of the custom -design process.

No matter where in the world you live, you will see through the miracle

of the Internet, through software that they have at royaldiadem .com, you will

see every stage of the creation process, and you have the

ability to give your input.

You can make changes along the way.

You can say, no, I don't like that, or please add this.

You can even change things that you didn't think of before as they are in the process of creating your

piece of jewelry.

And then you get a wax prototype of whatever it is that you want created before

it is turned into a physical piece of jewelry.

So it's definitely going to not only be according to your specifications, but it will

far exceed, I shall say, your expectations.

So go to royaldiadem .com, and please do that soon if you have any intention to buy yourself or somebody else

jewelry because we have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on this offer where we at Iron

Trip and Zion Radio will get 100 of the profits from that sale simply by you

mentioning Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

So go to royaldiadem .com, royaldiadem .com, and mention Chris Aronson of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We're now back with Luke St., author and chairman of Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society,

and we will be momentarily addressing his book, The Sound Doctrine of Theocracy, but first

we're going to have Luke do what all first -time Christian guests do on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We're going to have him give a summary of his salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious

atmosphere in which he was raised and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord

raised up in his life that drew him to himself and saved him.

So Luke, please give us your story.

Yeah, sure, no problem.

You said providential circumstances, and that is definitely a part of my testimony.

I grew up in a very strong Christian home.

We were homeschooled, five brothers and three sisters.

Mom never worked.

And despite growing up in this atmosphere, I would give lip service to

all of the doctrine, all of the

Christianese, and all that kind of stuff, the Sunday school answers.

But when I was about 15, I remember I had a dream where we were up

in heaven being interviewed to see if we would actually go to heaven.

And I remember my family was being interviewed one by one.

Every time someone came out of the office where we were interviewed, we'd all clap and cheer because they said, yeah, I'm going in.

And then it came time for my turn to be interviewed for entrance

into heaven, and I woke up before I was interviewed.

And when I woke up, it was beyond the when you wake up from a nightmare,

usually you're scared for a little bit, but then this wave of relief comes over you, like, oh, it's not real.

But that wave of relief never came over me.

I was still mortally afraid for a couple days because I couldn't think of of all the things that

I knew, I couldn't come to terms with the question of, well, why should God let me into heaven?

I'm a sinner.

I know I've sinned, and I know I've sinned against him.

I know he demands perfection.

So why should he let me into heaven?

It was like a precursor to Way of the Master by Ray Comfort.

It's that question of what did you ever do to get into heaven or why should God let you into heaven?

And I could not come up with an answer to that question.

And so I started going to the Bible and searching, like, how is man

justified?

And that's basically the day I became reformed and the day I became a

functioning, spirit -filled Christian because I essentially went to

the Bible to find out how is it by works?

No, it's by faith.

And, you know, Ephesians 2 .11, you know, it's by faith you're saved through faith.

And it's by grace you're saved through faith, and this is not of yourself.

So I started really searching the scriptures, and that is basically how I came to a

saving knowledge of what Christ did on the cross.

Praise God.

Well, let's now enter into the discussion of the sound doctrine of

theocracy or statism in the Christian mind.

Now, even promoting this interview, there were people who were stunned,

shocked, dismayed that I was entertaining the idea

of in any way giving a platform to the idea of theocracy.

And I'm talking about Christians.

I'm talking about conservative Christians.

And a lot of this, I think, is because it's a knee -jerk reaction that we were talking about before.

And it's not without warrant to be cautious when you hear about things like this because

especially Baptists who know history

will know that they have been the brunt of or the target, the victims of

persecution in theocratic governments in Europe.

And even before that, before the Reformation, where sadly you had

brothers in Christ who believed in the souls of the Reformation and

believed in justification by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ

alone, they cruelly and

gruesomely, at times, not all the Reformers, not

the Reformers themselves, but those within their

theological

agreement with the Reformers, those in the same nations and so forth,

those involved in government, did gruesomely and barbarically

torture and murder brothers in Christ.

And even before that, you had the Roman Catholic Church doing that towards Anabaptists.

And even closer to our modern day, where we have Puritans in mock

baptism services, drowning Baptists.

There was a Baptist in England burned at the stake in 1611, the same year that the King James

Bible was published.

So there are people, even who are as conservative as us,

and maybe in great theological agreement with us and the Reformed faith and so on, but they want to

really stomp on the brakes when they hear anything about

theocracy.

So why don't you define theocracy according to how you understand it and promote

it?

Yeah, so the reason I wrote this book is I felt the theonomists

were lacking in some of their argumentation regarding the form of government.

I think there are many theonomists out there who make the mistake of saying things like, yeah, we need to get

theonomy so that we can put it into our constitution.

I don't think that we can have the constitution and theonomy at the same time.

I really don't.

One of them has got to go.

The reason I wrote this book is because I'm arguing for the form of

government that is encouraged and the detailed in the scriptures, which is

basically laid out in Exodus 18, where Moses is judging the

people.

The people are coming to him with questions about problems that they have, and he's judging between them.

And then his father -in -law, Jethro, says, well, tell you what, why don't you go ahead and set up judges of 10, judges of 50,

judges of 100, judges of 1 ,000, and let them solve the minor disputes, and you take the difficult ones.

And I believe that right there is a theocratic system.

That's what I'm arguing for.

It's the form of government.

A theocracy is a form of government, rightly understood biblically.

A biblical theocracy is a form of government where the judicial branch is

basically the main branch, and the executive branch is primarily fulfilled by the

citizenry, and secondarily fulfilled by the government.

There is no legislative branch.

I argue for this in my book.

This is probably one of the biggest points in my book.

There is no legislator in a theocracy, in a biblical theocracy.

This is the system, the political system that sets it apart from basically every other political system out there,

anarcho -capitalist, collectivist, communist, whatever you want to put in there.

They all have a legislator.

They all have someone up there saying, new rule, you can do this, new rule, you can't do that.

And they all have somebody making up rules somewhere.

Either it's a bunch of people, or it's one person, or it's a small group of people, but there is somebody

making up rules.

And what I'm saying, and what was noticeable, one of the many things that was noticeable

about a biblical theocracy is there is no legislator.

So if I live in a theocracy, and I die in a theocracy, and 300 years later my great -great -great -great -great

-great -great -great -grandchildren wake up in a theocracy, it's the same rules, it's the same laws.

Nothing has changed because there is nobody there to change it.

God has given us, as it says in 2 Peter 1, I believe it's verse 3,

His divine power has given us everything that pertains to life and godliness.

A legislator in a political system assumes that that is not true, right off the bat,

that we don't have enough, we need a little bit more.

There's some humans out there that have got some insight about how we should be telling people how to live.

And I wrote this book because I wanted to make the point that

right from the beginning, even of this country, we got started on the wrong foot by implementing a legislator.

Any nation, I say this in my book, any nation that implements a legislator is by definition not free.

Because what you're doing when you implement a legislator, have a legislator in your country as part of your governmental

system, you're right off the bat assuming that God has left some vital things

concerning politics out of the scriptures, that we just don't know enough, that these people are going to tell us, these politicians of all

people, are going to communicate to us that here's some things God left out.

Here's a crime that's not in the Bible, so it should be a crime here.

Moses is always telling people, don't add to it, don't take away from it.

And what's noticeable about a theocracy is that it puts God as the king.

And in 1 Samuel 8, when the people rejected

God, what they didn't reject was theonomy.

They did not reject theonomy.

They rejected theocracy.

When God said, they've rejected me, that I should rule over them.

Okay, they're rejecting the form of government.

They want a physical representation of God here on earth that they can look to, instead of looking to God, instead of

walking by faith.

The just shall live by faith, right?

So even our political system has to reflect that truth.

And the reason I wrote this book is because I wanted to communicate to theonomists,

listen, we can't have our cake and eat it too.

We've got to realize that the Constitution, if there was a reverse rapture tomorrow, and all the pagans were taken

away, and only Christians were left, that we are not equipped to build a godly government.

We're not even remotely equipped to build a godly government.

We're going to try and do the same thing.

We're going to try and do the Constitution all over again with a legislator.

And we're going to be in the same given how moral we are, we'll probably be in even worse condition

in less time if we got a new nation.

So I wrote this book, hopefully we're going to equip Christians with, okay, the Constitution has a lot of

good things in it, and we should be utilizing those good things right now.

There's a lot of people fighting for it, and they're doing a lot of good things.

But we've got to have a long -term view of the Constitution that it's going to become a museum piece someday.

Someday it's going to be on a wall, and we're going to be looking at it and go, oh, I guess that's how they did government?

Well, that's pretty crazy.

Just like the Magna Carta, if you've ever read the Magna Carta, it's dated.

It has wonderful things in it.

It's got wonderful things in it.

Man, the Magna Carta's got some really great things, but man, there's a lot of stuff in there that's so dated.

And I think there's things in the Constitution, as wonderful a document it is, we have to be operating with, okay,

it's the Constitution, but guess what?

It's not the Bible.

It doesn't make the same claims as the Bible.

It doesn't even recognize Christ as being king over this nation.

And it's a really bad idea and a dangerous idea to get our law from one document and our

morality from a different document.

These should be one and the same.

I look forward to the day when Christians are walking around in this country, where everyone, really, everyone's

walking around in this country with just a Bible rather than a Constitution plus the 10, 20 million laws that we have to hold

and carry around and have to hire experts.

We have to hire experts in certain fields just to understand the law, and they don't even understand the law.

It's so complicated.

But God's law is simple.

It gives wisdom to the simple.

That's the claim in Psalm 119.

And I'm trying to communicate to people, listen, the Constitution has served its

purpose, but it's going to go away.

I don't think it's going to be Christians that make it go away.

But the pagans are looking at it like, this is giving us too much freedom.

The pagans hate it because it gives us too much freedom, or the haters of the Constitution.

But we need to look at it as Christians and say, you know what?

As Christians and what the Bible, the claims the Bible makes, the Constitution actually doesn't give us enough.

And even Founding Father John Adams said, Our Constitution was

made only for a moral and religious people.

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

So in case anybody is overly shocked in a negative way in

what my guest is saying, there is a Founding Father who had his

serious doubts about the longevity of the Constitution.

And before I go into the specific reasons why you believe

the Constitution is not only inadequate, but cannot

legitimately maintain its existence in what

you would call a Christian theocracy.

I have used the term very often.

I don't even know for certain if you agree with me or not.

But I've used the term that I think I first heard

Gary DeMar mention in an article years ago.

I'm not 100 % sure if that's where I first read it.

But in my memory, that's as far back as I can remember becoming

aware of this phrase.

But the phrase would be ecclesiocracy, where that would be

the thing that conjures up nightmares for Baptists and others, where a

specific denomination is a ruling power in

a country, where the specific details

of rites and ceremonies and all doctrines

related to belief and practice are imposed upon a society robbing all others

of any kind of religious freedom.

The Roman Catholic Church obviously did that with everything that they taught.

And people who were otherwise faithful members of the Roman Catholic Church,

John Hus being one, being burned alive because of his differences on

sola scriptura, which he adhered to prior to the Reformation.

And then, of course, you even have Protestants, as I mentioned before, persecuting other Protestants

because of disagreements.

They wanted to impose infant baptism on the population and other things like that.

That would be more in line with an ecclesiocracy, whereas a theocracy is

God's moral law being the judging authority in

a nation.

Now, are you in disagreement with what I said, or can you further clarify your

opinion in reaction to what I said?

No, that's very accurate.

There is a negative connotation to theocracy.

I mean, sometimes if you read a certain definition, it will say

a rule of a religious authority or a rule of priests.

But to be more specific, that's actually an ecclesiocracy.

And that's what you get most people hating on when they hate on a theocracy is an ecclesiocracy.

And again, that features a legislator.

That features someone up there going, okay, I spoke to God this week, and this is what he said.

New rule, you've got to do this.

And that's common in cults.

Cults usually have ecclesiocracies.

New rule, all the wives turn out my wife.

New rule, now I'm the son of God or whatever.

New rule, I mean, now you have to...

By the way, brother, I just want to let you know, for some reason you get choppy sometimes, and you cut in

and out.

I'm not sure what's going on there.

In fact, I know what I'm going to do, Luke.

I'm going to go to our midway break right now.

Folks, if you would like to submit a question to Luke, please send it to ChrisArnson at

gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Please be patient with us during the middle break because it's always a bit longer than the other breaks in the show

because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a

longer break in the middle because they are required by the FCC to localize Iron Sherp and Zion Radio

geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements

and other local things.

So please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for our advertisers so that you can

more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers because we need our advertisers to exist, folks.

We need the finances that come from our advertisers.

So please respond to them at least by thanking them for sponsoring this show if indeed you want the show to

continue.

And also send in your questions to Luke Saint to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

I'd like to remind my guest Luke to please mute yourself during the break.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Luke Saint after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sherp and Zion Radio and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching,

writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnson of Iron Sherp and Zion Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration

fee.

Go to g3min .org.

That's g3min .org.

And enter promo code G3ISIR.

That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the G3

National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sherp and Zion Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while

you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your

30 discount off the registration fee.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology

at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use

the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled

Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and

systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking

for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com

westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph

Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuoco serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God.

They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuoco

demonstrating the reliability of Scripture.

To advance the cause of the Gospel they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the

genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition

1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims

to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public

in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation

of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpen's

Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes

or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we

hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign

Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and

always.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have

never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

Reading, preaching and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs,

baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy

and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at

gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654.

That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please folks, update your records for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in regard

to their new website, gcbc -nj .org.

Gcbc -nj .org.

The new website of Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer

and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and

beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church go to hopereformli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net or

call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Ironsharpensiron.

When Ironsharpensiron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Ironsharpensiron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of thereformrookie .com and co -founder of New York Apologetics and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana and the NASB is my

Bible of choice.

I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the Historical Bible Society and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina

and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com That's

solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And never forget, folks, always make solid -ground -books .com your very first stop

for all your gift -giving needs.

They bring back into print and also publish for the very first time nothing but the

finest in Christian literature dating back to the 16th century Protestant Reformation and extending forward to

our modern day, including such present -day authors as Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega

Ministries.

So, please visit solid -ground -books .com frequently, purchased generously.

Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to my guest, Luke Saint, who is the chairman of the Mid -Atlantic Reformation

Society and the author of The Sound Doctrine of Theocracy, we have

just a couple of important announcements that we have to make before returning to that discussion.

Folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm asking you to please go

to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer the old -fashioned way of sending a physical check to a

physical address via snail mail through your local post office, well, there will also be a physical

address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can mail your checks made

payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Also, if you want to advertise with us, as my dear friends at Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society

just have agreed recently to do, I'm looking forward to airing their commercials once they

provide them for me.

But if you would like to join them in becoming a part of the advertising family of Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio to further ensure that we will continue to exist, send me an email to chrisarnson

at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

No matter what it is, your church, para -church ministry, your business, or your private

practice, like a law firm or a medical firm, or maybe it's just a special event that you want to promote,

as long as it's compatible with what I believe, I would love to hear from you quickly because we are just as much in

urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

Also, folks, if you are giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I

want to remind you that I never want my

audience to be cutting in to the money that they have allotted to give to their own

local church on the Lord's Day in order to bless us financially.

Please never do that.

Don't give your own church less money than you normally do in order to give us a gift.

Also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, please wait

until you are back on your feet financially and more stable before you send us a

financial gift.

The things that are very clear in the Bible about our finances is that we are commanded by God

to support our churches and our families.

We are not commanded to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and other programs and parachurch organizations.

But if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear and

you have extra money above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you have extra money

collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational,

or trivial purposes, please, if you love the show, share some of that money with us so that we can continue

to exist.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now.

Lastly, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ -honoring,

theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Independence Reform Bible Church,

where my guest Luke Saint's dad is the pastor in Lancaster,

Pennsylvania, well, if you're not a member of such a church, please, no matter where

you live in the world, send me an email to chrisorensen at gmail .com and put I Need a Church

in the subject line.

I've helped many people in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience all over the world find churches that are biblically faithful,

sometimes just within a couple of minutes from where they live.

That may be you, too, if you are in that predicament.

Please, send me an email to chrisorensen at gmail .com and put I Need a Church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Luke Saint on his book, The Sound Doctrine of

Theocracy or Stateism in the Christian Mind.

That's chrisorensen at gmail .com, chrisorensen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

And before we go to our listener questions that have already come in, Luke, can you please continue

where you left off?

You were responding to my distinction between an ecclesiocracy and a theocracy.

Yeah, the ecclesiocracy is one defined by

what people often mistake and put as a theocracy.

They hear the term theocracy and they put ecclesiocracy in there.

And I'm not arguing for that.

I'm arguing for what the Bible defines as a theocracy, which is basically a system of judges

where you have one set of laws that you interact with that don't change.

There's nobody there to change them.

And one of the things I want to talk about earlier when you said was, when you brought up what,

it's at the beginning of my book actually, what John Adams said, that this is for immoral and religious people.

It's wholly unfit to govern anything else.

And that is a foundational philosophical difference between what John Adams says

about the Bible, I mean, about government and what the Bible says about government.

Because in the Bible, it says in 1

Timothy 1 verse 8, it says that the law

is not laid down for the just.

It is for the unjust.

And here's John Adams saying, basically, I hope everybody reminds their Ps and Qs.

Now, to me, that is a foundational philosophical misunderstanding of what a

government should be doing.

It's like a father giving everybody a cell phone and says, well, I hope everybody uses the cell phone correctly.

Rather than a father saying, if I give this cell phone to my child, I know he's going to be using it incorrectly.

So I'm going to implement a system for when he uses it incorrectly for discipline and for action and for prevention, things

like that.

But that's a foundational difference between the two dads and giving their children cell phones.

John Adams is hoping that the kid just minds his Ps and Qs and uses the cell phone right, whereas the other

father says, if I'm giving you the cell phone, I know you're not going to use it right.

And so that is a huge difference between the philosophies, between the governmental systems of the

law, of God's law, God's theocratic system, and the Constitution, which

basically says, I just hope that everybody is nice to each other.

And that is a huge difference between the two philosophies that govern a nation.

And being good Calvinists, we know that people are totally depraved.

And John Adams is not figuring that into the Constitution.

People are totally depraved.

And it shows 250 years later.

And we'll let me go to our one of our listener questions.

This is from Anthony in Hoshton, Georgia.

And Anthony has never corrected me on my pronunciation of Hoshton, Georgia.

So I'm assuming I'm pronouncing it correctly.

Thanks for having a program dealing with the renewed interest in to what degree are

Christians theonomists?

Does your book align itself with some of the views of the book, The Mission

of God by Joe Boot?

Or do you have a different view than he offers?

No, my book is, I wouldn't say it's similar, but I've read through

Joe Boot's book.

It's a wonderful, excellent book that you can, total doorstop of a book that can,

as I've heard a friend say, beat your professor over the head with.

I love that book so much.

I love that book so much.

Isn't it about 1 ,000 pages or something like that?

It's huge.

It's massive.

But it's a great introduction that will kind of get you maybe warmed up for what I'm saying.

I think I'm going a little bit farther than Joe Boot.

I've never heard him interact with the idea of actually having a legislator in government.

All other political systems have it.

The Bible is the only one that I know of that doesn't have a legislator.

So I'm not sure what Joe Boot would think about that because I know that there's a lot of general equity theonomists out there.

And I agree with general equity as long as we're not legislating, because if I use general equity in

theonomy and I have a legislator, I can start off with the principle of a parapet around my roof.

But plus general equity and a legislator equals building codes.

Right.

And that's wrong.

That's wicked.

That's unjust.

General equity, I believe, is only for adjudication and not for legislation.

It's for the judges to use and say, OK, an ox back then, a car now, things like that.

That's for adjudication.

General equity is not for legislation.

OK.

And Anthony has one other question.

Does this book align itself with much of the Christian nationalism?

Oh, I'm so glad he brought that up.

I there are certain aspects of Christian nationalism I agree with.

You know, the people out there who say we have a lot of good things.

We've got a lot of good heritage.

Let's try and keep that.

Can we please keep the good things about this nation?

And I agree about that.

But my solution is a little bit different than theirs.

And I hope I'm hoping I'm just using myself as an example.

I'm looking for the biblical solution.

So Christian nationalism, I believe, should this is how I basically

define Christian nationalism.

And Deuteronomy chapter four, verse six, he says, keep them and do them for that will be your wisdom and your understanding.

The sight of the peoples who when they hear all these statutes will say, surely this great nation is a wise and understanding

people.

For what great nation is there that has a God so near to it as our Lord, our God is to us whenever we call upon him.

And what great nation is there that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that is set for you today?

I believe that Christian nationalism is a result.

I do not believe it is a destination.

I believe faithfulness to the Bible is the destination and Christian nationalism is the fruit.

When pagan nations start to identify us and look at this and start to say things like, wow, look at these laws.

What are the nations like this?

That to me is Christian nationalism.

But we do not get there with an immigration policy.

We do not get there with a legislator.

We do not get there with government regulating things and who's allowed to come in and who's allowed to leave, all that kind of thing.

You know, we don't get there that way.

Christian nationalism, I believe.

I believe in it as a fruit of biblical faithfulness.

I do not believe it in it as a destination.

I believe that every nation should be Christian.

But we cannot have a Christian nation if we reject God's form of government.

Eventually, we're going to go the way of paganism if we give the pagans the option to

institute injustice.

That's the big difference.

Christian nationalism often in its writing, when people define it, they give wicked people an option to

institute injustice.

Even Christians, low -meaning, good -intentioned Christians, Christian nationalism, when it's spelled out in the

nuts and bolts, there's an option there for people to institute injustice.

Theocracy cannot institute injustice because God's law is

just.

So if you have God's law being the only set of laws for the nation, the nation by definition is just all

the time.

You can have localized injustice.

We see that in the book of Judges.

But you cannot have institutionalized injustice, right?

So if a judge dies and another judge replaces him, that new judge has no obligation to be unjust.

Whereas right now, if I'm a police officer and I swear to uphold all the laws, I am obligated

to be unjust in upholding these laws.

And that is a major difference between what I'm arguing for and what Christian nationalism argues for.

Often, I've seen in their definition, somebody's up there writing laws.

And whenever you do that, you're giving people the option to institute injustice.

We should never have that option.

Well, Anthony in Hoshton, Georgia, please make sure that you give us your full mailing address

so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship to you a copy of the book

that we are addressing, The Sound Doctrine of Theocracy by my guest, Luke Saint.

And we want to thank Luke for providing with us a limited number of copies to give away today.

And thank you, CVBBS as well, for shipping out to our listeners the free

books and Bibles they receive for submitting questions at no cost to us

or to the listener at CVBBS .com.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I'm embroiled in some serious

disagreements with very close brothers and sisters in Christ over the very subjects you are

addressing today.

One of the issues that comes up by opponents of theocracy and theonomy

is that they envision a Christian run government being the

persecutors of nonbelievers.

And obviously, that would also include if all unbelievers were banished

from a particular nation, who would the Christians be evangelizing other than

possibly the nominal Christian offspring of the Christians?

Do you have any clarifying answers to this?

Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question, Mr. Anonymous or Mrs. Anonymous listener.

I'm so glad.

The answer to that is, again, the people you're arguing against are people who don't know the law.

So there is no law against not being a Christian in Old Testament Israel.

You were allowed to be a pagan.

There's nobody there.

God never institutes a law that gives the government the right to go door to door and say, hey, are you a Christian or not?

Are you a believer or not?

Let me see the circumcision, OK?

I mean, that was hidden for a reason.

Circumcision was hidden for a reason, right?

So there is no government body in a theocracy that

goes door to door to make sure that you're a Christian.

You are allowed to not be a Christian in a theocracy.

The only thing you're not allowed to do is you're not allowed to proselytize towards atheism or towards

idolatry.

That is a capital offense.

But again, one of the reasons that I wrote this book is because the second

title of it is Statism in the Christian Mind, is we often take our statism and we put the Bible into a

status context, right?

And so we come to the scriptures and we're like, OK, well, if we did this now, then there'd be witch hunts everywhere.

But that's thinking like a statist.

That's how statists think.

They like witch hunts.

They want to do witch hunts.

They're all about witch hunts.

But the Bible never gives the people or the government the power to actually institute a witch hunt

because the evidence must be on two or three witnesses.

And those same witnesses must be the ones to throw the first stone.

But again, in the scriptures, there is no law saying you have to be a Christian.

God never institutes a body or a law or a rule that says if you're not a Christian or if you're not a believer, if you don't say

these words right now, then we're going to kick you out.

OK, again, that's more Hollywood stuff.

That's more Hollywood stuff saying, well, if you did a theocracy, then you'd be witch hunting everybody who doesn't say the right thing.

No, no, no.

That's not true.

God gives people the legality to not be Christians.

You don't have to be Christians.

You can even walk around and say, I am a Muslim.

I am a Hindu.

But you're not allowed to proselytize.

You're not allowed to bow down to idols.

And the people to actually institute the

executive process against these people is the neighborhood,

right?

It's the people who actually see it, who view it.

There is no government body walking around saying, hey, are you – and this is, again, this is more Islam.

There is no government body walking around saying, hey, did you put your lights out?

Did you do the curfew?

Did you do this?

Did you do that?

It's just the people and their neighbors taking each other to court.

So, no, there is no government body out there kicking people out.

You're not allowed to exile people because they're not a believer.

That's not a law in the Bible.

Okay, that's just more Hollywood stuff.

And you're not allowed to execute people because they don't say, I believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

And as long as there is no legislator, it will never become that

way because God never instituted it in the first place.

Anonymous, you've also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing, The Sound Doctrine of Theocracy

by my guest Luke Saint.

Make sure you give us your full name and full mailing address.

Obviously, your name will not be disclosed over the air.

And cvbbs .com will ship out to you a free copy of Luke Saint's book.

And if you're a first -time questioner, you'll also get a free New American Standard Bible.

So let us know if you are a first -time questioner.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,.

In response to what you just said to the anonymous listener, I'm wondering how your vision of a

theocracy is different from an Islamic theocracy, where

they only execute Christians and other people of different religions if they proselytize.

They usually just tax, in a more heavy fashion, those that disagree with them

religiously.

But when it comes to evangelism and proselytizing, that's when they execute them.

Is your view any different from theirs?

Oh, absolutely it is.

Because, again, in their view, they might have a law in the Koran somewhere saying it's okay

to tax people if they believe differently than you.

But again, this is somebody who –.

I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence, but someone who's not familiar with biblical law.

Because in biblical law, if you don't pay taxes, there's no penalty for you.

You don't have to pay taxes if you don't want to.

Just in the same way your church doesn't come kicking down your door, if you don't pay tithe, in a

theocracy, there is no government body to track you down and say, Listen, you owe

us this money, and if you don't, we get your house.

The justice of a nation depends entirely upon the piety of the people.

So there is no government body to force taxation.

If I'm living in a theocracy and I don't pay taxes, then I don't pay taxes, just like I live right now.

And my church doesn't come bashing down my door if I don't pay tithe.

So it's a similar thing.

So it's way different than an Islamic state.

Because, again, if you don't pay taxes in an Islamic state, they're coming for you.

But in a theocratic state, there is nobody to come and get you if you don't pay taxes.

This is, again, our statism putting it in there.

We make peace with the idea of death and taxes.

But I said before, and I'll say it again, the same person who conquered death has also conquered taxes.

And what I'm trying to communicate here is that we

airlift our statism into the scriptures, and we start using status rules, like if I don't pay my taxes, I lose my

house.

And we put that on the Bible, and the Bible never makes that claim.

In fact, if you don't pay your taxes, nothing can happen to you.

So, yes, it's radically different than an Islamic state, because an Islamic state

is not biblical law.

And let me just say this, too.

Why are we worried about this, what the Muslims are doing?

Oh, you're not a Muslim, so you get heavily taxed.

Well, right now, we live in a country where I don't want you, therefore you're dead.

Come on, people, is this really the argument we're having?

So many more people are being killed in the womb just for being an inconvenience, and we're worried about implementing a theocracy?

That's insane.

We always get worse whenever we go to the conversations the pagans are having.

That actually reminds me of something that adds weight to the argument

of Christian nationalism and a theocracy and a theonomy, is

that in reality, everyone, whether they are conscious of it or not,

or whether they are willing to admit it or not, everyone believes in a theocracy, or either

believing in a nation ruled by the true biblical

laws of the true God, Jehovah, the triune God, Father,

Son, and Holy Spirit, or you're believing in a theocracy governed by the

false laws of false gods.

And I know that leftists refuse to put their

ideology in the category of religion, but no matter how you try to dance around it or

escape from it, they're trying to impose upon society things

that are by nature religious, because once you try to impose

a law that is in contradiction to the Bible, you are

saying God is wrong and the Bible is wrong, and when you say that, you are making a

religious statement and you're making a religious law.

So no matter what people say, they cannot escape the religious nature of their

anti -Christian and anti -biblical laws.

So I can hear you agreeing with me already.

Yes, yes, and it's somewhat frustrating when you have these discussions because people bring

in the whatabouts.

I mean, give me the day when we're talking, I've said this before and I'll say it again too, but give me the day when we're talking

about how do we implement God's law, and there's the discussion of the government, how are we going to implement

God's law in the most best way, in the most biblically faithful way, right?

Because right now, I want that discussion, because right now we're having the discussion of when do I kill the baby?

When do I kill the child?

Can I kill the child before it's out of the womb or after it's out of the womb?

Or right now we're having the discussion of what is a man and what is a woman?

Those are the conversations we're having right now.

And people are scared about looking at a theocracy and going, well, what about this?

What about that?

Are you serious?

You really want to have that discussion?

You're scared of the discussion about God's law?

But right now the discussion we have is complete and total utter chaos.

It's unbelievable.

And we have Gregory in Middle Island,

St. Kitts in the West Indies.

He says, what do you think of Joel McDermott's two books, A Consuming Fire, The

Holy of Holies and Biblical Law, and number two, The Bounds of Love, An Introduction to

God's Law of Liberty, where he speaks the cherim principle and how it

applies today biblically, and also where he makes his case that while homosexuality

is still a sin and that all such who are unrepentant

are to be excommunicated from the church, that it is no longer a civil crime and ought not to be

punished civilly.

Biblically speaking, based on the biblical seed principle.

Are you familiar with any of this that our listeners?

Yes.

Yes.

The cherim principle.

Yes.

Yes.

Totally utterly devoted to destruction.

I'm familiar with that book.

And I actually interacted with Joel McDermott a little bit about it.

What seems to me.

OK, first off, let's let's set the record straight on homosexuality.

The Bible never says that being a homosexual is a capital offense.

OK, the Bible says that whoever lies with a man is with a woman.

Shall we put to death?

OK, that is the crime.

But but if you say, hey, I'm a homosexual, the state, even in Israel, Old Testament Israel, nothing can be

done to you.

There's no crime for a status.

The Bible never puts crime as a status.

Even the word which is translated as poisoner.

It's not a status.

So you can't say, well, I'm a witch.

Oh, grab her.

You know, that's the kind of thing.

And most of these witch hunts that we have is because we didn't have a theocracy, because we did punish people on crimes of status and hearsay.

And the Bible never allows for that to happen.

So first, let me say that.

OK, let's get the record straight on homosexuality.

OK, it's not a crime to be a homosexual.

It is a crime to lie with a man with a woman.

That's the crime.

Secondly, the Karen principle seems to go out the door immediately in Romans chapter one,

where it says those they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die.

OK, and what is he talking about there?

OK, and where do we find God's righteous decree?

And secondly, in First Timothy chapter one, and this is what I asked Joe McDermott about.

I said, hey, what about First Timothy chapter one, where it says the law is good if it's used lawfully?

And he talks about homosexuality, talks about adultery.

And so my question is, well, how do we use the law lawfully against somebody who's committing

homosexual acts if we're getting rid of the Karen principle?

It doesn't make sense.

So those two verses right there, in addition to some other ones, kind of just throw everything out the window for me.

As far as the Karen principle comes, I mean, I don't think it's a very strong argument at all.

I think there's some theological gymnastics and that the New Testament re

-institution of the law being good, if it's used lawfully, kind of throws everything out the window.

And Gregory, since you are overseas, CVBBS .com

cannot ship to you a free copy of our guest book.

But if you have a friend or a family member in the 50 United States

and you would like the book shipped to them so that they can either keep it or send it to you, you can give

us the name and address of that individual.

Thanks for your question.

Now, before I go to any other listener questions, let me hear your

reasons.

And we only have time for maybe one or two now as to specifically why the United States

Constitution is not sufficient and adequate for a Christian nation.

Only two?

OK, I'm just joking.

OK, so the first thing is, as a nation, you cannot

afford to not recognize God.

They gave the Constitution off with we the people.

I believe it was a big mistake.

It was such a colossal mistake that they were able to convince the Muslims or the Turks, if you will, the Ottoman

Empire.

Hey, we're not a Christian nation.

See?

And they gave them the Constitution, gave them all the documents.

And the Muslims were like, yeah, I guess they aren't.

I can't find language in here that identifies these people as Christians.

Now, in the same way that most Christians look at the Constitution, we see

biblical principles.

There's the right in the Declaration of Right to Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.

Those are biblical principles.

But the Constitution doesn't specifically say in the name of God, amen, Jesus Christ is Lord.

And that's a mistake.

We can't afford to do that as a governing document as a nation.

We can't afford to do that.

That's just too much of a mistake.

So eventually you're going to go towards humanism unless you acknowledge Christ right from the beginning.

You read of Solomon's dedication to the temple.

It's not this we the people stuff.

I mean, it's like, oh, Lord, you are so great.

You are so magnificent.

We recognize you as a nation.

We bow before you.

You've got to start off with language like that.

If you're going to make a document, that's going to be the overarching document of a nation.

You've got to start off with biblical language.

You've got to start with Christian language or else you're going to go the way of the world.

Secondly, again, I've said this before, any nation that makes a

legislator, and again, the Constitution, it says, whatever the president signs from the legislator, it says it shall

become law.

That plus 250 years of hindsight was a huge mistake.

Huge mistake.

We should not have done that.

The founding fathers, or let's just say the framers, should have never allowed for a legislator.

We should have used God's laws, God's rules.

That's it.

And as soon as you give man the option to institute injustice, he will.

And again, I say this, and I'm being very serious about this, but even

the job, the job of the legislator, of the politician, it only attracts frauds by its

very nature.

I'm not saying everybody who's a politician is a fraud, but it attracts frauds by its nature because humble people want

to be left alone to take dominion, and they want other people to take dominion.

So when you offer them a job of, hey, you get to tell people how to take dominion, a humble person by nature is going to say, no,

I'm not going to do that.

What they're going to do is they want to live and let live.

But a fraud, a person who does like pushing people around, a person who does think that their way is the best and like pushing

people around, telling people how to live, they will by nature gravitate towards this position of legislator,

of politician.

And that is a huge mistake in implementing these offices and this phraseology

into our governing documents.

And very quickly, is the wording, in your opinion, of the Declaration of

Independence sufficient?

Because it does acknowledge God and the Creator in the wording.

I don't know if that is too minimalist and not Christian enough as far as

specificity.

But what's your view on that?

The Declaration of Independence was transitionally the beginning of the end

of Christianity, institutional Christianity in this country.

I like the phraseology of when they recognize God, but here's the problem.

When Benjamin Franklin said to Thomas Jefferson, we hold these truths to be sacred.

That's what Jefferson was going to put.

Benjamin Franklin said, no, we hold these truths to be self -evident.

Okay, that's the beginning of the end.

When you're starting to write out Christianity and to write in humanism, then the rest of your government is going to reflect that.

And that was another huge problem because, again, as Christians, a

true Christian who believes in total depravity is going to give God all glory and honor and praise.

And when we start to say things like it's self -evident that we're all created equal, when this is actually a revelational

statement, that is a huge mistake when you put that into your documents.

Okay, we have to go to our final break.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching,

writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration

fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo

code G3ISIR.

That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the G3

National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while

you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your

30 discount off the registration fee.

I'm

Brian

McLaughlin,

president of the SecureComm Group, and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control,

and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties,

municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off

-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms.

We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall,

endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations,

call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355.

Or visit SecureCommGroup .com.

That's SecureCommGroup .com.

This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and

kings.

We teach families to worship together as families.

Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of

God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ.

This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the

kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church.

Believe.

Build.

Fight.

PuritanPHX .com.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland,

going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe

Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism.

Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant

Reformation of the 16th century.

Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone,

grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone.

Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch

.com.

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954

-7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe Riley, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, and a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

sent you.

Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corm, New York,

and also the host of the ReformRookie .com website.

I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar.

You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many

solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the ReformRookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

page.

We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as

well as seasoned believers.

From Keach's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform

Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession

of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Uvino, and thanks for listening.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing

is Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuoco

demonstrating the reliability of scripture.

To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the

genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition

1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his

claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums, and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public

in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

When Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville

Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck White of the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have

never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

Welcome back.

I just want to quickly tell our listeners to mark on your calendars the next

interview that I have with a board member of the Mid -Atlantic Reformation

Society.

Our next interview with a board member is on July 19th,

which is next Wednesday, and the guest will be Matt Kennitzer, who

is pastor of St. John's Reformed Church in Freidensburg, Pennsylvania.

I do not have a topic yet that Pastor Matt will provide, but I'm sure it's going to be

an excellent one.

So mark your calendars for that date, which is next Wednesday.

And, of course, tune in every day to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I'd like you to summarize now, Luke, what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about

this very controversial topic that divides brothers and sisters and hopefully

something that will at least give enough clarity and understanding where there is more unity over this

issue, even if there remains disagreement.

Sure, that's an easy one.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity, Chris, and thanks for having me on today.

So a couple things I want to say.

You know, we didn't need to storm the Vatican to have Reformation in the church.

We don't need to storm the White House to have Reformation in our state, okay?

We don't need to storm the White House.

So, you know, the book is not arguing for that.

It's not arguing for revolution.

It's arguing for Reformation.

Reformation is always superior to revolution.

Secondly, I'd like to say that after reading Psalm 119, you cannot conclude the Constitution.

You just can't conclude the Constitution after reading through Psalm 119.

It keeps going back to God's law, your ways, you know, that kind of a thing.

The Constitution just doesn't fall into the purview of Psalm 119.

It's just by its nature.

If you read and compare, it contrasts.

It doesn't work.

But that doesn't mean that we have to ditch the Constitution and we have to stop using it and look back.

It doesn't mean we have to stop looking back at all the wonderful benefits.

There's a lot of people and a lot of good things that the Constitution has done.

It protected us a lot more during COVID than other countries.

And third, I'd like to say this.

Friends, if you love Christ, you've got to love theonomy and theocracy in

this way.

What I'm trying to tell you is that they tried to use theocracy and theonomy to kill Christ.

They tried to use it.

Before they brought him to Rome, they tried to use it.

It didn't work.

Before they brought him to Pilate, they tried to use God's governmental system against him, and it didn't work.

So even under the most innocent person to ever live was able to walk with freedom and

righteousness and virtue and liberty under his own system.

Where did they go to kill Christ?

They had to go to humanism.

They had to go to statism.

They had to go outside God's law to kill Christ.

So if we really love Christ, we've got to really love his law because he was able to walk in freedom.

It couldn't kill him.

They tried.

They tried to use the system, and it didn't work.

They had to take Christ and take him out of his

own system to be able to effectively kill him and use statism and Rome to do that, to accomplish that.

They couldn't do it using theonomy and theocracy, and I think that's very telling.

By the way, Gregory and St. Kitts, thank you for your compliments over the opening theme music, the Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio.

I will try to get you a copy of that music that was created by

a faithful listener of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jason Highwell Martin,

who is a member of a Christian band in Canada who

contacted me a few years ago asking if I wanted

him and his band to create new opening theme music for us.

So I was just honored that he did that, and they also do the theme music for James

White's webcast, The Dividing Line.

So I will try to get that for you.

I want to remind our listeners, please don't forget about the three -day event that

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society is hosting

featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, September 15th, 16th, and 17th,

which is a Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

It is going to be held at the Spooky Nook Sports and Events

Center in Mannheim, Pennsylvania.

And for further information, go to midatlanticreformation .org, midatlanticreformation

.org, or futureofchristendom .org, futureofchristendom .org.

You can also go to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio website, ironsharpensironradio .com,

ironsharpensironradio .com.

Before we go, anything that you want to promote in regard to books that might

be on the workbench there, where you're in the process of writing a new book,

or anything else that we should know about in regard to Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society?

Nothing.

I'm not working.

I'm thinking about writing a new book called Cowboys, Outlaws, and Puritans, and that will have to do with biblical manhood.

I'm thinking about writing a book like that, but specifically for me,

I host a podcast called the Brotherhood Silver Screen, where we talk about movies.

So that's a really fun one.

If you're into movies, I host that one.

And I also am part of the podcast for the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society called Think and

Reform.

And right after I'm done here, I'm going to go record a new one with my friend Tyrus.

Well, don't forget as well about the Independence Reformed Bible Church,

which is located in Morgantown, Pennsylvania, the suburb of Lancaster.

Their website is irbc .church, irbc .church.

I want to thank you so much, Luke, for being such an excellent, very informed, very articulate guest.

I look forward to your return to the program.

Thank you, Chris.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.