November 15, 2016 Show with Josh Buice on “Guardrails Against Hyper-Calvinism” PLUS David Campbell on “The Lord’s Day: Why Go to Church Twice on Sundays?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 15th day of November 2016.

I'm so delighted doubly delighted today to have two Men

of God who are very dear to my heart on the program today.

For the first hour we are going to have Josh Bice on the program.

He is the senior pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

He is the blogger at delivered by grace calm and director of the

annual g3 conference.

We're going to be discussing guardrails against hyper Calvinism during that first hour

4 to 5 p .m. Eastern.

And then following that hour We are going to have my pastor David Campbell

who is the senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania?

And he this may be actually the last opportunity that I have to interview pastor David in the

studio.

Because he has accepted a call to Northern England at North Preston Evangelical Church.

And he is going to be departing the United States in just a matter of days.

So it's going to be a rich pleasure to have him in the studio.

I know I got willing.

We'll be interviewing him by phone in the future, but this may be my last in -studio opportunity.

We're going to be discussing the Lord's Day why go to church twice on Sundays, which is a book He

wrote for one day of publication or day one publications.

So please stay tuned for that during the second hour.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor Josh Bice

of Praise Mill Baptist Church, Douglasville, Georgia.

It's a great pleasure to have you back and I'm very excited about the g3 conference coming up.

It's gonna be here before you know it January 19th through the 21st, but before we get to that as We

always do since we have new Listeners in our audience.

It seems joining us every week.

If you could let our listeners know about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

In the event that they've never heard of that church before so grit.

So I serve a 175 year old

just west of Atlanta, Georgia in Douglasville and It happens to be the church where I grew up as a

boy.

My wife Grew up here in the context of this church as well.

Attending for a number of years in God's Providence

six years ago I was extended a call to come and to serve the

church the people that had served us as children and young adults.

And so that's the context in which I serve and just Privileged to be not only a

child of the King but also a pastor serving people under the banner of the gospel.

And tell us something about your blog delivered by grace.

Delivered by grace is a blog that it did start

within the context of my time at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary just myself and a

few other friends.

We just Used it as a springboard tool for conversation through the week.

Eventually it morphed into what it is today.

Just a site where I write a couple of main articles a week and spotlight some other articles

and ministries and resources throughout the week and a sermon review typically on Monday, so.

Just a good outlet for writing and just helping people think clearly about the gospel.

Great.

And for those of you who would like to visit that blog It's delivered by grace calm.

Very easy to remember.

Delivered by grace calm.

And last but not least let us know about the highly anticipated g3

conference for January 19th through the 21st 2017.

Absolutely.

Um, so the g3 conference and through

prayer this entire

Need really in the Atlanta Bible Conference a good theology conference.

So through prayer and much Work here within the life of this church where I serve

We formed a conference That was basically designed to take a theme

that we would unpack for three days So Thursday through Saturday, and so we decided to name

the conference the g3 conference taking on Really three pillars gospel grace and

glory.

So we wanted to set You know a clear precedent you might say from the beginning that

this is a theology conference.

It's not.

It's not some type of pep rally for Christians or the type of entertainment outlet for Chris for

you know for the Christian community, but it's a Say, you know unashamed

Theology conference over five years ago and here coming up now in January

will be the fifth annual conference and this particular year we're looking at the subject of the Protestant

Reformation being it's the the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation in 2017.

Well, I am eagerly looking forward to being there myself.

This will be my first g3 conference and I don't think I've ever.

In fact, I know I have never been at a conference that had 19 speakers and

all of them really impressive speakers and you'll be hearing more about that and not

only during this interview, but in the days and weeks to come until.

The g3 conference is completely sold out.

How many how many do you expect to actually attend the conference?

We're looking probably at 2 ,500 maybe.

You know by January the end of January.

Wow, that is very impressive.

And in fact, I've never been at a conference where there's been 2 ,000 people so this is going to be a

Joy for me and I hope that those of you who are in my audience who are attending that and I know

that There are a number of you who have registered as a direct result of hearing about the

conference on this program.

I hope that you look for me at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

I'll be right next to the Alliance of confessing evangelicals exhibitors booth

and I would love to greet you face -to -face.

Because there are many of you that I have never met and I would love to meet as many of you as possible at this conference

and.

So that's g3 conference calm g3 conference calm today.

We are discussing Something we have addressed this before on my program, but I don't

think that Reformed Christians can hear this topic too often.

Because it is important for us Not to fall into heresy

just as we are Well known for preaching against heresy the heresy of others.

We have to protect ourselves from that same.

Error.

That comes in a different flavor.

It is known as hyper Calvinism and obviously I think it would be wise to make it clear Pastor

Josh that you are a Theologically reformed Baptist Christian

a Calvinist as it has been nicknamed and perhaps if you could summarize what that means.

Because the run of the reasons we should clarify that is that as You know many of the enemies of the

doctrines of sovereign grace or reformed theology Will call everyone who adheres

to those teachings a hyper Calvinist.

They even will call Calvin a hyper Calvinist.

But if you can if you could please summarize obviously since we have less than an hour for

our interview just a brief summary of what makes Calvinistic theology

stand out and I'm talking about obviously the biblical historic Genuine form of this

theological system.

Yeah, I think that for me Chris.

I was certainly not always a Calvinist.

I You know grew up in the context of a of a Southern Baptist Church

Interestingly enough.

I did have two pastors for about ten years each that were

Calvinistic in their soteriology not Necessarily in their ecclesiology, but in their soteriology.

So as they would preach at

what the Bible teaches about the doctrine of salvation from a reformed view.

Which I believe happens to be the biblical view for me.

I think that you know after going to seminary and then Being on somewhat of a journey trying to

understand what it was that I actually believe where I stood on this issue I did waver back and

forth quite a bit.

And then serving a church in Tennessee for a number of years.

At the time I looked at a situation that I was facing to be quite Discouraging there

was a particular man in the church that had come into that church context before I arrived as pastor.

And he had a Methodist background and he he really just you know, everything that I said

Bigness or the sovereignty of God he would come to the office and he would want to duel with me you

know in the text of Scripture and complain that you know that I was preaching from a

Calvinistic position at that time.

I Certainly rejected any type of notion that I was a Calvinist.

I didn't like the term and Still to this very day.

I think Chris you would probably agree that When we sit and talk about the fact or or say

that, you know, I'm a Calvinist.

I want to make sure that people are using the same dictionary as me because for some

In which pertains to this very subject of hyper Calvinism that we're talking about today for some

Just Calvinism in and of itself is Synonymous with hyper Calvinism, so

they will just throw that term around, you know, very loosely.

So I want to make sure that you know, according to some people's definition I'm probably a zero

-point Calvinist because their definitions are just so Corrupt or or you know,

just not exhaustive not accurate.

But according to historic Calvinism, yes, I would definitely embrace

five points, but so through that time period in Tennessee This

you know discouraged me he would accuse me of being a Calvinist or a hyper

Calvinist.

I didn't like that language.

So he was pressing me to study the scriptures in ways that I had not before and so

Through time I was trying to prove that I wasn't a Calvinist.

But every time I would turn a corner in the Bible the

sovereignty of God and salvation in ways that I had not studied before.

So.

Long story short after God called me back to serve my home church here

after the dust settled I picked up this study once again started studying more and eventually ended up

embracing all five points of Calvinism so.

Um, you know for a time I would probably have considered myself to be a 3 .5 or a

four -point Calvinist.

But I don't think that that.

You know, if you if you want to be technical, I don't think that that really exists.

Because if you truly understand what total depravity is.

Then I think that all of the other points are connected to that one foundation.

Yes, and most of the time.

With few exceptions, I do know a couple of Individuals that

are Four -point Calvinists and they really do claim even though I believe I agree with you.

I believe that they're being inconsistent.

I don't think that they can logically hold only four but they do actually believe in

The four even if it's inconsistently.

Out of the five usually it is a limited atonement or definite atonement or

Some of the other particular redemption is another phrase but that's usually the one that's excluded.

But most of the time when people call themselves four -point Calvinists They're really redefining what those four

points are and when it boils down to it There really are minions who believe that you can't lose your salvation.

I preach here within the context of I want people to see a very

big God for me to err.

To the degree of making God too big possible to make God too small.

But I don't think that in my human understanding and my human vocabulary in

Preaching a sermon on the Lord's Day.

I don't think that I'm going to be guilty of making God's Bible.

I want to lift up before the people each week a.

Robust.

Sovereign Majestic God who saved sinners and he doesn't need anyone, you know, he doesn't need

one's help or Cooperation or anything else involved in that process.

But that's not just my philosophy.

That's something that I'm seeing straight from chapter and verse all through the Word of God.

And.

Those of you who want to have a more of an exhaustive in -depth Description of what Calvinism

is we don't have the time to do that today, but it has been spoken of so often on this program.

You can listen to many different interviews that I've conducted on iron sharpens iron.

And discover the more in -depth definition.

But today because we are really predominantly addressing our Calvinistic brothers those who would

actually claim to be theologically reformed believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Or actually use the title Calvinist our like -minded brethren and we

are addressing guardrails against Hyper -Calvinism, which is a heresy.

And before we even contrast Hyper -Calvinism with the authentic

article.

Would you say in summary for those of our listeners who are not in our camp that in summary

that?

Calvinists Believe or theologically reformed Christians believe that God

deserves 100 of the praise honor and glory and credit

for the salvation of sinners whereas all of our theological systems whether they be

Roman Catholicism whether they be Evangelical Arminianism or historic

Arminianism or Semi Pelagianism or Pelagianism.

They all have men.

Contributing to their own salvation.

That were men even if they wouldn't dare Verbally give credit to man for his salvation.

The only thing that you can logically conclude from what they say is that men are partially responsible

for their salvation.

Correct, so when you have the Roman Catholics for instance you insist that we

cooperate with God or You know you have You know loose Phrases,

you know that that are you know handed around or or spread abroad throughout

evangelicalism that state.

That God does his part, and then we do our part in salvation is just it's just a

horrific view of Salvation that obviously does not come from the text of Scripture.

Now when we Contrast Calvinism historic biblical

Calvinism Faithful to the Reformation and so on

The the the hyper Calvinist one of the hallmarks would you agree is that

hyper Calvinists tend to Reject the idea that God uses means

to accomplish his purposes.

They go so far That in excluding men's involvement in any

way in the their salvation that they even Exclude the fact that God uses

means such as evangelism and so on the preaching of the gospel Etc to

to actually save.

His elect so hyper Calvinism is actually a technical

term that must be properly defined.

So you can't just say that someone that's a hyper Calvinist is someone that's really overly excited

about Calvinism.

Hyper Calvinism is actually a technical term.

It must be defined properly.

And so what it means is what you're driving to and in your further and former

description is save

sinners, but he does not use people and efforts and means.

Through missions and evangelistic efforts in church planting and the preaching of the gospel to the non elect.

And so they they simply, you know reject any desire to preach

indiscriminately to everyone the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Right, and I'm gonna be very careful not to broad brush, but some who

would Be in that camp Would be a segment I think a pretty a

fairly considerable segment of the primitive Baptists Would be in that camp

where they they actually have a term for people like us they or that would they have a

term for our doctrine they call it the means doctrine and They would typically

label us as Arminians Just because we believe that God uses the preaching of the

gospel and evangelism as his means to Actually save his his elect.

Yeah, I mean, it's well known, you know from from church history

and then all through church history.

We see men carrying out the Great Commission.

So you have someone like William Carey who wanted to take the gospel to India and you had this older

gentleman years ago Named John Ryland who stood up and told him basically to sit down and shut

up because If God wants to save the heathen, he'll do so without our aid.

So.

That type of language that type of belief is Hyper -Calvinism in the history of our church

here that I serve if you go back and read the history.

There was a group of people years ago that split, you know

back I'm From this church on that

very issue.

But and they wanted to you know plant churches and

send missionaries and support and and they simply did not agree.

So they went and formed a primitive Baptist Church.

Which was some hyper -Calvinism, so they were

rejecting any desire to preach the gospel to the non -elect.

And.

There are also hyper -Calvinists are not a monolith they Manifest themselves in

different ways.

It's interesting that you have some hyper -Calvinists who make The gates

to heaven a lot broader than the Bible would describe.

That would I think include the primitive Baptists because they don't even and I'm of course I have to constantly say that

I'm not broad -brushing.

They don't all Harmoniously believe these things.

In fact, I even know a church that invited years ago. Dr James R. White to preach at a conference for them and

they adhered to the 1689 London Baptist Confession and seemed to be very biblically

Orthodox, but Those within the hyper -Calvinist to camp it within the primitive Baptist.

They don't even believe that all of God's elect will come to saving faith in Christ

on this planet.

They so far remove the preaching of the gospel and evangelism from the whole

Act of salvation that God sovereignly determines that

They even have the elect going to heaven and discovering Christ for the first time when they open up their eyes

in eternity.

Lay the foundation

biblical for people to justify someone as a hyper

-Calvinist.

Simply because I believe the five points of Calvinism because if if indeed Hyper -Calvinism is

then what we have at that point is.

People who are using a term that's heretical and by that definition.

We must understand that, you know heretics they die and they go to hell.

Say Charles Spurgeon was a hyper -Calvinist.

Then that means that he died and went to hell.

But we you know, so in my context, I don't know about in your context.

But in my context within the Southern Baptist Convention Within the

Bible Belt South Calvinism

is so they just loosely categorized miscategorized Calvinist

as hyper -Calvinist often.

And so, you know for people to just use terms loosely.

Not define terms properly.

And so if you go that route you must consign an awful lot of people from church history such as Spurgeon

and others To the flames of hell something that I don't think that they really want to do so.

Interestingly enough here.

We'll have a lot of Baptists who will rail against Calvinism.

But then individual Spurgeon, which is completely

inconsistent.

Yeah, they deny that he was a Calvinist.

What's that again?

The Arminian Baptists among us is and of course most of them don't call themselves Arminian.

But the the non Calvinist or non reformed Baptists among us very often

Adamantly reject the fact that Spurgeon was a Calvinist.

Yeah, well, that's simply not true.

It's not accurate, right?

Well doc that you know Spurgeon called the you know, Calvinism basically the gospel.

When he moved into the Metropolitan Tabernacle and you know in 1861.

They had to build that church facility, you know that they were in

previously and when that particular

week basically was dedicated to you know, a series of

messages on the doctrines of grace and but he just wanted to lay the

foundation from the very beginning that.

That that entire house was built on the doctrines of grace.

And he even said I am never ashamed to avow myself a Calvinist so, you know,

that's just a misuse of Spurgeon.

A misunderstood figure of Charles Spurgeon in his preaching ministry, he was

Unashamedly a man who stood on the doctrines of grace and preached them

passionately.

Amen, and as I was saying before Not all hyper Calvinists are monolithic

the other side of the coin of what I mentioned before That would have an opposite

manifestation of this than the Primitive Baptists would would be some of the groups like the

Netherlands Reformed Church.

Dr. Joel Beakey left the Netherlands Reformed Church and he and Other

brethren in Christ in that denomination who also left started a new denomination that was more

faithful to the scriptures in regard to election because of the Netherlands Reformed Church unlike the Primitive Baptists who have a

much broader Understanding of the gates to heaven.

They have a much more narrow Understanding of the gates to heaven than the scriptures would describe

and it was very typical I have heard in that denomination where you could have a church of

a couple of thousand members where only a tiny handful of people would accept the Lord's

Supper because they are filled with an

unscriptural Doubt and a morbid introspection of

their own souls like the doubts of their salvation are planted in their minds because of

unbiblical reasons and so on so.

So therefore either way that hyper Calvinism manifests itself.

It's a very dangerous thing.

It is and I think one of the people or groups that you see

presently that Embrace this view of hyper Calvinism or the Westboro Baptist group.

Yes.

They are hyper Calvin.

Yes, they are and they they they have no concern if you notice

when they do their their marches and their.

Their.

Boycotting and all that kind of thing.

The signs that they carry and the things that they say.

They have no interest in seeing homosexuals for instance one to Christ.

They they leave them In their damnation and rejoice in it.

They Rejoice in the fact that unrepentant homosexuals Will be

damned but they have no interest in seeing them repent.

No, they don't.

In fact, I was at Southern Baptist Convention years ago in Indianapolis.

And I was headed out for a lunch break and as I went out onto the sidewalk to go to lunch There was

a group of Westboro Baptist protesters standing there with their signs Preaching at

the red light in the inner city there.

And so it really disturbed me to watch that little boy stand next to his father as he's screaming

hate -filled messages into the windows, so.

After eating lunch, I came back and as I was walking back by I just popped and started preaching the gospel to them

so when when people would roll up to the red light and He would preach his false

gospel into their windows into their into their cars I would then echo the true

gospel by pointing them to Jesus Christ.

And so I took a few minutes to just evangelize his son.

He wouldn't listen to me.

He called me a reprobate and other choice words.

But his son was captivated.

So I just took an opportunity to preach the gospel to his son and then.

But but but that group that they are just a prime example of what it means to be

Hyper -Calvinistic to preach judgment, but no grace.

We have to go to our first break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please include your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

You may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

That compels you not to identify yourself.

Especially when you're asking things of a pastor that may be personal.

In fact, if you're gonna be saying anything negative about your own Congregation, we would insist that you remain

anonymous or I will keep you anonymous.

But we look forward to hearing from you after these messages.

So don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church.

I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.

And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.

He and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and

Occasional guest on Chris's show.

I.

Think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta.

My new hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer

Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Bacom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference.

Thanks, Todd, I think.

See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

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Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in our first guest today for the last half hour in the next half

hour to come is Pastor Josh Bice senior pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville,

Georgia.

We are discussing guardrails against hyper Calvinism.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

We do have a listener in Slovenia Joe who asks, please

ask brother Josh to address this thought.

Since reformed theology aka Calvinism is arrived at through a

consistent hermeneutic and Exegesis how does seminaries and those who graduate

from them who affirm?

Soluscript Torah.

Come to any other conclusion other than reformed understanding.

Thank you for being a means of God's.

Self sanctification in his church.

The answer is centered on the fact that when we study the Bible although

you know many well -meaning seminary professors do teach good hermeneutics and

you know a good methodology of studying and expounding the scriptures.

Unfortunately, you still have a lot of baggage that's brought into play.

So we bring our Preconceived notions or our beliefs

and we Sometimes are guilty of importing them into the text instead of expounding the truth from the

text.

So that's how we end up believing, you know what we believe.

Oftentimes because we have been taught this that's why so many people are born Armenians

and they remain Armenians because they've always just been taught this superficial view of

God's saving grace.

So an awful lot of people although having been taught and given the tools of

faithful exposition they still Don't do a lot of faithful exposition if that makes

sense.

So what you end up with is you end up with people who are just doing you know a

shallow skimming of the text and they're not digging in through

the Word of God and so You know, they might do an overview of John but they never deal with chapter 1 verses 12 and

13.

They never deal with you know John chapter number 3 where the wind blows where it

wishes and you can't control it.

They never deal with John chapter 6.

They never deal with John chapter 17 and a host of others such as John chapter

you know, it's about rightly handling the Word of God and unfortunately, whether it's seminary professors or

preachers pastors Just an awful lot of times people aren't really doing

solid exposition.

Therefore.

They're missing a lot of.

Depth in their in their doctrinal studies and of course, obviously hyper Calvinists are doing the same thing

when they So want to jam?

Calvinists Calvinism I should say in every verse of Scripture and

Eliminate anything that involves the responsibility of men.

They wind up just doing the the same thing but coming up with an opposite conclusion than the Arminians and.

Well, we do have some other questions, but I really wanted before I get to them I really wanted you to go through because we're gonna

obviously have to have you back to go through some more guardrails Against hyper Calvinism.

This is what we want to discuss today.

What would what would be some practical pastoral advice?

To other pastors perhaps and also just your average Christians to

prevent Hyper -Calvinism not only from seeping into the church

around you but even in your own mind and heart.

Obviously there are.

I don't know if the situation is the same with you pastor Josh But I have found that a lot of

those who newly discover Calvinism a lot of people have nicknamed that cage stage

Calvinism where there is a lot of aggressiveness and Enthusiasm and excitement and zeal

but no wisdom or tact behind it.

You have a lot of people in that group being hyper Calvinistic in their approach.

But what what practical advice do you have?

To prevent this from Becoming a bigger problem not only within the church, but in your own mind a.

Couple of the former Questions from

our brother who talked about so but we need

to have another View called Tota

Scripture.

That's right.

So the of the Bible is extremely important reading the Bible.

You can't just camp out, you know on you know, Romans chapter 9 or you

know Some passage that did a very depth and width

and height of God's sovereignty and salvation.

You must deal with that's actually in the Bible and and Jesus

actually the gospel and to do so.

That the early disciples were sent out from you know from the route,

you know Judea Samaria and then to the other

do that very thing to preach the gospel Indiscriminately to everyone and then leave the result

exactly what we should be doing.

So the same Bible that teaches that God is sovereign in saving people and he does

so upon his own initiatives Before the foundation of the

world.

He also has ordained the mean by which these people come to faith.

So he could have being God.

He could elected them in Christ before the foundation of the world

and then commissioned angels a hoax the gospel and bring people to

faith.

But that's not what he did he has.

Go out and to preach the gospel so from the beginning I would just encourage people

as a guardrail to the errors of hyper Calvinism is just to read and believe.

To read and understand church history

study the passionate missionary movement.

Go and find out who William Carey is or was and find out what

William Carey believed.

Go and study and find out who Adoniram Judson was What he

believed what he preached.

Go find out who Jim Elliot was What he believed and what he preached.

I would encourage people to find out who George Mueller was and What God did through

that man of about the doctrines of grace?

So all of these men that I've just named and not withstanding as far as the former conversation goes

Charles Spurgeon and Others these men were robust

count that we need to

have I've been that we stand with in

the shoulders that we stand upon and Understand that we are called commissioned by Christ himself.

Amen, and I don't you think another thing is that those who have a hyper Calvinistic

tendency? Really have to understand that the fact that God

uses means and human beings and preaching and Evangelism

and writing the fact that he uses means to save his people from their sins

That does not Nullify or contradict the fact that he is sovereign over their salvation.

One of the best texts, I think that demonstrates

God using means and and also clearly revealing that he is sovereign over

someone's Salvation is an axe 1614 with Lydia a woman named

Lydia from the city of Thyatira a seller of purple fabrics a worshiper of God

was listening and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things

spoken by Paul.

That's right.

And The other one of the verses that I've never heard an adequate Arminian

response to Ever is in Acts 13 48

when you know Paul is preaching to the The Gentiles.

And when the Gentiles heard the preaching of the gospel They began rejoicing and

glorifying the word of the Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life

believed.

That's right, but how did they believe?

Right.

Someone was commissioned to go and to preach.

Amen.

So I mean over and over again you have these examples In the Bible where

God is clearly using means he's not using just the fact

that People are born to godly parents

or right.

He's not zapping people, you know and Eliminating all forms of

evangelism to them.

You know, he is Clearly even even the fact that he has ordained his

word to be written.

I.

Mean camped out in Romans 9.

They need to actually read a little further down into Romans 14.

How will how then will they call on him and whom they have not believed?

Question mark.

And how are they to believe question mark?

And how are they to hear without someone preaching question mark?

And how are they to preach unless they are sent?

So then it goes on and says as it is written.

How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news?

So we are the good news because it's impossible for people to believe.

Unless they hear amen.

Let me take a couple of other of our listener questions.

We have Seth in Randleman, North Carolina.

What would pastor Bice recommend for a pastor who has fellow elders?

Who are sound theologically and preach the gospel, but consider themselves?

Synergistic in salvation.

How would he handle a situation like that?

Would he say or do anything?

Well, I can't imagine you ever keeping your mouth shut in the midst of somebody having biblical error.

But.

Or theological error, but if you could answer to the best of your ability Seth's question.

In my context, I don't understand how someone becomes an elder who's

preaching And teaching and has oversight and authority within the

church.

I'm not going to get into the details of that.

I mean, I'm sure that perhaps this individual inherited this problem or whatever else but You know when it

comes to the idea of someone I guess cooperating between you know with God in the process of

salvation.

That type of thing.

Again, I think that biblical orthodoxy is is key here.

I'm Roman Catholicism teaches a form of cooperation.

With you know with God but as far as the scriptures are concerned and as far as

the historic Orthodox Christianity is concerned. It's faith

alone in Christ alone for the remission of sins and even the

faith is eight and nine.

For by grace, have you been saved through faith?

And this is not of your own doing it is the gift of God when it talks about even faith

part of the gift of God so it's grace the whole idea of God saving us.

We are undeserving in salvation.

This is God's God's grace.

His mercy his kindness toward us.

But even the faith that we believe God is the one who gifts us with repentance.

He is the one who gifts us with faith.

So I just would take you know, if it were me, I would take these brothers through a a

clear, you know study the Bible

actually teaches about salvation and Just point out

verse by verse by verse that for the remission of sin.

It's in Christ alone but yet even the faith that we that we exercise

is given to us by God and so I would just go to the verses of

Scripture.

I would just spend time trying to just tackle these men and to correct them in their errors.

And pastor George in Enola, Pennsylvania Sent me just now a

very large article Of an Armenian pastor

seeking to refute the Calvinistic Interpretation of Acts 13 48.

Obviously, we don't have the time in eight minutes To go through an exhaustive article that I

haven't even read yet pastor George.

But what I would like to do is I'm going to email this article to pastor Josh and perhaps in a

future Interview we can go through this article because this this Armenian

author of this article goes through a number of Points where he thinks that the

Calvinistic X attempts at exegeting acts 1348 or faulty.

Perhaps if you after you read this article, you might consider it worthy of another interview pastor Josh.

Sure, I'll be happy.

Great.

Well, so pastor George be patient and we'll let you know.

Because I haven't even had a time to read this article.

Obviously, it's I'm on the air live right now.

And I just received it.

So perhaps at some point we will address.

That.

That article for you I would love to see what this Armenian pastor has to say because it it's interesting that I have a

friend from a Church of Christ background dr. Efflegard Smith Who wrote a book called

troubling questions for Calvinists and it was subtitled and the rest of us and

He was honest and he was honest enough to say that he had no Answer

to X 1348 and he believed that every effort from a non -Calvinist that he had bred

Trying to interpret it in a different way Than reformed exegetes have done.

He believed that they were Pouring their own eisegesis into the text.

So even even even he is a non -Calvinist could not come up with a

response, but but anyway We do.

Let's see We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

Is it true that a hyper Calvinist theology kills evangelism?

Because they say that the elect are predestined to salvation In which they ignore

Matthew 28.

Sorry, like it's a great commitment.

I'm assuming that's what he means because obviously we do believe That the elect are

predestined to salvation and we're not hyper Calvinists, but I guess he's I guess he's just talking about

That being isolated alone as a truth and eliminating the Great Commission, perhaps.

Yeah, yeah, I think he's just hitting on the you know, the whole Foundational principle of

hyper Calvinism that divine sovereignty is emphasized to the exclusion of human responsibility.

And that you know If God if God before the foundation of the world has elected someone and

chosen them in Christ Then they will be saved because God's will will come to

the Great Commission again.

That's inconsistent.

That's cherry -picking the Bible that in other words that saying divine

sovereignty and salvation.

I'm choosing to reject the teach the great

guilty of just Bypassing.

They're using the Bible as a buffet to just get what they want instead of taking the totality of Scripture.

And the.

The thing that we have to keep repeating is that those who are historically

faithful biblically faithful Calvinistic Christians reformed Christians believers

in the doctrines of sovereign grace Believe that we must passionately and fervently

Evangelize all that we meet and become acquainted with and all that we know and love

With the gospel because we do not know who the elect are until God gives them

a repentance and they Become, you know outward in their faith and they realize

that they have been redeemed by Christ.

But.

While in a lost condition, we don't know who the elect are and and.

Going back to what we've been saying.

But God uses means to draw his people unto himself such as the preaching of the word.

That's something that a drum that we have to keep beating, isn't it?

It is you know the the idea that The you preach the

gospel to everyone is essential in in biblical orthodoxy and and and it's what Christ

has commissioned us to do Insisting that we don't preach the gospel to

the you know The non elect.

My question would just simply be how do we determine who the non elect are only to

the elect?

So.

Again, it's just it's just didn't see and unfortunately,

it must be rejected as a heresy.

And in some ways it's very selfish to believe that you have eternal

life only because of the blood of Christ and you're you're keeping that to

yourself or Keeping it confined to your own little club of people.

That is the height of selfishness.

It's like having the cure for a terminal disease that everyone around you is inflicted

with and just watching them die and not sharing this.

This secret cure that you have.

Yeah, and one of the times you unpack is is in many times

these people not only are selfish but they're also Almost joyful in the

idea of God damning the reprobate because in many cases these hyper Calvinist

Believe that God does not love in any You know in any way

whatsoever.

He does not love the non elect and so again, just

complete inconsistency with the scary -picking certain verses with

understanding the full meaning of the text in relation to The full counsel

and the whole counsel of God's Word.

By the way, Pastor George in Enola, Pennsylvania since you are a first -time Questioner

you are going to receive a free New American Standard Bible an absolutely beautiful Edition of

this translation with an embossed cross on the cover.

If you give us your full mailing address, we will have that Bible shipped out to you by Cumberland

Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm so please email us your full mailing address Pastor George

and we'll have CVB BS comm ship that out to you within a week or so.

Thank you very much for joining us.

I'd like you to conclude now Pastor Josh with a final summation of what you most want etched

in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

I think if I could just really encourage people you talk about guardrails Chris I would just simply

state Just very quickly that We must read the full counsel of God's

Word and we must believe Every jot and every tittle of what scripture actually teaches.

If we're reading the greats the gospel to everyone

indiscriminately calling everyone to

repent eyes and a passion and a compassion to see Men women boys and

girls come to faith alone and in Christ alone for the remission of their sins it

come difficulties of the robust understanding of God's

sovereignty and salvation.

Then we must believe that too many times the hyper Calvinist will look at the Arminian

You know and just critique them and say that the Arminian is unwilling to believe the

robustness of God's sovereignty and salvation.

But I think that we should all look at the hyper Calvinist and say that they're unwilling to believe the

Great Commission study church

history and the large figures of the missionary movement and see these men

what they believed and How they obeyed the Great Commission even within the context and framework

of a robust Sovereign great position.

We do have a listener David not sure where he is from right now

But he is very disappointed in our interview because of all the things he believes we left out.

Well, perhaps David we can continue this discussion again on iron sharpens iron and as I've said

at the outset of the broadcast We have talked about this before on the program and I

don't intend to stop today but we only had an hour to discuss a very broad and deep and

Complicated issue that does not it's not monolithic as I've said, so

hopefully we will be able to continue this subject with pastor vice at

some point in the future and We will address some of the points that you've brought up in your email.

So sorry David if we didn't get to all of the issues that you wanted us to address.

But pastor Josh vice it has been such a joy to interview you again, and I want to give our

listeners your Your email addresses.

So first of all the g3 conference if anybody would like to register for that I believe

they have a room for about 500 more Folks to register they have

over 2 ,000 registered now and That is g3 conference comm g3

conference comm and also praise mill Baptist Church's website is praise mill

calm praise mill calm and Pastor Josh's blog

is delivered by grace calm delivered by grace calm.

Thank you so much pastor Josh God willing.

I look forward to seeing you in January in Atlanta, Georgia at the g3 conference.

I'll bless you Chris.

Thank you.

It's all nice to be with you.

All right.

Well, god bless you, brother.

And.

We are going to be joined any moment now by my pastor of Grace

Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Pastor David Campbell Who

is the second guest today.

We are going to be talking about the the Lord's Day why go to church twice on Sundays and

If you would like to join us with a question about that our email address is Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name your city and

state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and

Please only remain anonymous if it's something about an issue that is personal and private and intimate and you

Really really would rather not identify yourself.

Other than that, please give us at least Your first name city and state and country of residence.

We will be right back after these messages.

So don't go away.

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And here's my friend.

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To tell you why?

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries.

I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh vice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th to the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vody Balcom Conrad and Bayway

Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated the pillars

Of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory.

For more details. Go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference dot -com.

Thanks James.

Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega ministries.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our second guest today is my pastor at least right now.

He is.

Uh, his name is David Campbell and he is the pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle,

Pennsylvania.

Uh, he started his position there as Christ's under shepherd for that

congregation in 2002.

And now he has accepted a call.

Uh to North Preston Evangelical Church in northern England, in fact, he will be leaving the United States.

In a matter of days, so this may be.

The last opportunity I have to interview pastor David in the studio.

I hope to have many more interviews.

With him over the phone and perhaps when he visits the United States as well.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back into the studio of Iron Sharpens.

Iron pastor David Campbell.

It's good to be with you Chris, thank you.

Welcome.

Yes, pastor Campbell.

And before we even go into our subject at hand the Lord's day Why go to church twice on Sundays, which is a book you

wrote for day one.

Publications among other books you have written for them.

Uh, tell us about a North Preston Evangelical Church in northern England, which has given

you a pastoral call and after much prayer and heart -wrenching

contemplation you have accepted their call and planned to Fly there and

serve as their under shepherd in and probably a matter of weeks though.

Yes. Thank you. Chris.

Uh this sunday sunday 20th will be my final sunday in grace baptist

church after 14 years and uh three months.

So it's going to be an emotionally Charged and difficult day i'm sure

leaving a much loved people behind me.

We fly out on monday.

And i'm due to arrive in Preston in the northwest of england in

lancashire on the 30th of november and god willing begin my

ministry on sunday 4th of december.

Now this really is a Huge change at many different levels obviously

huge change of country.

I'm now going back to my native land at least.

As far as great britain is concerned I was 15 years in the northeast of england

in the town of darlington Before coming to america in 2002.

And.

Now with my wife i'm going back to the northwest of england.

There's about two hours between the two just on the other side of the country.

Preston is a city I believe of about 140 000 people.

And it's just north of manchester and liverpool and it has

a large muslim population.

And.

Is really a strategic place for evangelism just north of that.

You're into a very beautiful part of england the Lake district and to the east

the Lancashire fells and the yorkshire dales.

So being a lover of the outdoors and uh walking i am eager to

savor the delights of.

That's a very beautiful part of the northwest of england.

So how did I come to be.

Leaving grace baptist church and going to north preston.

I've heard it was because of me joining the church.

Well, actually chris it is to do with you but it's to to stop you inviting me to come onto your show.

I thought this is the only way to escape.

No, I shall be delighted to join you from england as well.

Uh I was uh I was.

Put in contact with the north preston church.

Back.

Last year and then the contact was renewed earlier this year I

was due to be speaking at the banner of truth lester conference

in april and I was asked by the north preston church to

Preach on the lord's days either side of the conference.

Which I did and then was invited to come back With my wife at the start of

our vacation in july.

Spend a delightful weekend with the folks there.

And.

Subsequent to that was given a unanimous call to that church

and I felt very strongly that Though it is a wrench to leave

The folks here and we're leaving a daughter and son -in -law here that it is the call of the lord that

I go.

So, let me tell you a little bit about north preston evangelical church, yes it dates

from the 80s and under its first pastor

david white it grew very considerably.

They were able to build and pay off a building in the mid 90s.

And.

Things continued to go well until David's health.

Around 2007 2008 necessitated him stepping down

from the ministry.

They were vacant for a while.

They then called another man.

Things did not go well with that pastorate and the upshot of it was

that This brother resigned a lot of members left.

And in the fallout from it the elders either resigned or left.

And so it's a church that has been through the wars but in the Love

and kindness of god Things have turned a corner.

Uh, there is a joy and a unity in the church the five deacons Who

have had to take responsibility for the leadership of the church with all fine men.

It's been a pleasure To get to know them.

A number of the former elders are still a part of the church and very lovingly

integrated into its life.

And.

The the desire and need is For a pastor with some experience.

And the hope is that in days to come I may be able to lead

them in the establishment of a new eldership.

So i'm not going to be doing anything about that All through 2017 other than just keep my eyes

open and we will see how things go.

I think it's just a time for the congregation to get to know me a time for things

to stabilize and hopefully to grow as a new ministry begins.

People there are very uh Much looking forward.

It's very humbling, but they're very much looking forward to my arrival with my wife and

I'm increasingly looking forward to Taking up the reins of ministry there.

It will be very different from The previous two churches where there was an

established eldership to work with.

I will be the sole elder at least to begin with and Perhaps some of the listeners can identify

with that.

It's no uncommon thing.

So i'll have the responsibility for mentoring some of these men and hopefully seeing how they develop

uh as potential future fellow elders.

So there we are.

That's a north preston evangelical church.

It's got a website.

Uh, so please feel free to visit that website.

Just google north preston evangelical church and there it will come up.

Well, i've got it right here.

It's npec .org .uk.

All right npec for north preston evangelical church npec

.org .uk.

And the church that you have pastored since 2002 where I am

a member uh, grace baptist church of carlisle, pennsylvania.

That is a reformed baptist church is confessionally reformed adhering to the 1689 london

baptist confession.

That website is gracebaptistcarlisle .org.

Grace baptist carlisle c -a -r -l -i -s -l -e dot org.

Uh, how different to your knowledge is uh this church, uh in

North preston england, uh to what you are now leaving.

Well in some ways chris, it will be very much the same.

Other ways it will be very different at our Recent congregational meeting and

our report was given.

On.

The membership and we have got between 230 and 240 members Of

grace baptist at the moment.

You need to begin by striking 200 off that to get some idea of

The size of the church the just over 30 members.

Perhaps double that maybe more in connection with the church and an attendance, but

So it's a very much smaller church, uh than i've been used to.

So that's going to be very different straight away but

uh as far as doctrine and worship They would be very much

on the same page as grace baptist church carlisle, they would be reformed

in their theology and Would have

Very similar approach to worship That we're familiar with at grace

so Considerable difference as far as the the size of the congregation.

But we're very much alike in terms of the things that matter most.

It will be A little easier to Pastor

in the sense of being a visitor to the congregation because I do love to

visit and this will be a much more manageable number of people to visit regularly.

So, yes that will be.

Different in some very important respects.

Well, I hope that uh our listeners in the uk When they are visiting the

northwest of england or even Those listening outside of the uk that visit the

uk.

If they are in the northwestern area of of the of england that they come and visit you on a lord's

day.

And especially we hope that those who live near enough To attend

regularly and join that congregation.

Those of our listeners who are without a church.

Or perhaps the church.

That they are members of or are attending.

Uh, perhaps those churches are unfortunately unbiblical they are discovering.

That.

They have strayed far From the true teachings of scripture or perhaps never adhered to them.

To begin with.

We hope that there are many people That find a new church home with you as a result of

listening to this broadcast.

And uh, and I Really do hope that you return often by phone and that will be on my dime.

I I've just uh discovered that it's only when I interviewed, uh, Mark johnston in

wales.

It only cost about ten dollars for a two -hour discussion with him on the phone so I was very pleased with that

very Happy that it was not as expensive as I thought it might be but um.

And so before we even go into your topic at hand about the lord's day You had written a

book that we briefly discussed on another Interview handle that new call with care.

I guess you had to dust that book off that you wrote yourself.

And read it when you were making this decision.

I did read it and it didn't give me all the answers.

I think i'm gonna have to put an appendix to it.

No, it's an interesting Fact that when I

was called to grace baptist church.

Of which is really the the The situation out of which the book came because

when I was wrestling with the call back in 2002 I had no

book.

That was really of any great help to me.

The most Important source of help was apart from scripture was

the biographies of ministers who had wrestled With the situation and it was in my mind at the

time I must do a paper on this sometime give an address on accepting or

declining a call staying put or moving on and reference some of this

biographical material.

And I was subsequently invited by day one to actually contribute a book length treatment of it.

So That book came out of the struggles and it was a struggle.

I was given a call In march of 2002 and that the month that ensued

was one of the most difficult months through which I ever lived.

Everyone else was sure that I ought to accept the call.

I was not clear in my mind and For me the the whole situation is quite evenly

weighed so I was thankful that eventually the lord did give me

peace.

And I hope that the book I know the book has been helpful to others when it came

to this.

There was wrestling, but the wrestling actually was prior to

receiving the call.

I had the months between April when I visited twice in july when I went back with my

wife just to think through the whole thing in principle wrestling with going for

example to a much smaller congregation.

What was perhaps?

You know on the surface of a narrower sphere of ministry.

Also Leaving the congregation here Etc

etc.

And I really came in principle to the conviction.

That.

It is for me For ministers to discern the lord's mind

and to leave the whole issue of The breadth or narrowness of a sphere of ministry and

the fruitfulness of that entirely in the lord's hands.

And.

A passage or actually more than a passage a section of scripture that helped me more than

anything else.

Was the last part of the book of acts which I preached through.

Uh.

Two or three years back and just thinking about the experience of paul.

Here's this man height of his powers traveling far and wide.

And he goes to jerusalem and all of a sudden he's under

lock and key.

And it was his ambition to go to rome.

It was his prayer to go to rome.

He sends the call to go to rome and he did go to rome.

But it was in very different circumstances and in a very different time scale.

From.

That which had been left up to him.

He would have gone for so it's what three years maybe before he gets to rome.

And all of that time is under arrest.

And when he does get to rome, it's as a prisoner.

And not as a free man and he's under house arrest chained to a roman soldier.

And yet in that apparently much more restricted sphere of

service The most amazing things happened.

We have letters like the letter to the philippians To the ephesians to the colossians

to philemon which have Under the blessing of god done

incalculable good.

Uh.

Throughout christian history those Letters came out of that period.

He could write these marvelous words to the philippians.

I want you to know that what's happened to me has actually turned out for the spread of the gospel because he's

Chained to all these soldiers.

He's sharing the gospel with them.

And.

As a result the Gospel is spreading throughout the palace guard.

All of which is to say is that From what from a human point of view seemed a

restricting of the sphere Of his service actually under the

power of god Wonderfully enlarged it as history was to prove.

The bottom line is We have to leave these things with god uh to go from a congregation of

240 members to one that's just over 30 may seem uh as if

you know, you're Placing your ministry in a much narrower sphere.

But god can use that in extraordinary ways and it's not for me to question now.

I mean, none of your listeners may have wrestled with that.

I wrestled hard with that and I really came through the impact of

scripture to a settled peace and.

Joy.

Uh just to quietly trustingly leave it in his hands the upshot of it was when they

When they gave me this unanimous call.

And it was important that it be unanimous because it's a small congregation I could have accepted it there and then.

And there was nothing of the wrestling for a month that there was.

Uh, when I was given a call to grace, I I could have accepted it there and then.

I didn't because My loving congregation here these dear people here did not

know what was happening and it was important that I go back and

Take time to explain the situation Put it to the test of

their counsel and their prayers.

And.

They have been wonderfully supportive.

Hearts are sad.

It's a good thing that hearts are sad.

It's better that they be.

It's better that they be sad and that they be glad i'm going.

I.

I think there's a real sense in the congregation that this is the call of god.

And.

So I go with the the blessing Of the lawrence people the blessing of the eldership

the blessing of the congregation As a whole I know that I go with their love.

I know that I go with their prayers they rejoice For me,

although Sad at the same time that i'm leaving so it's another little

dimension to you know, the kind of things that i've been writing about and it's been good just to see

how that the principles are at work and just Playing

themselves out perhaps in a different way.

Yes, and I know that one of the major factors that was involved was that.

Your age.

You're I believe 55.

I am on the cusp of 56.

Okay, chris.

Yes.

I mean that's true.

I had 15 years just under 15 years in Darlington.

I've been here for 14 years and three months I've said to many people.

I think i'm a middle distance runner.

My predecessor was here for 39 years.

Jeff thomas has just retired after 50 years long distance runners.

I think i'm a middle distance runner.

Chris and.

After nearly 15 years in Darlington.

I was ready for a change.

And.

I think in god's providence.

Uh, the time has come in different ways.

Uh for a change here.

And.

My hope is that god will Renew my strength and spare me to perhaps

If he so wills that give An equal amount of time to north preston evangelical church.

I don't know what the future will hold.

I mean solemnly, we don't know what a single day may hold but Yes at a number of different levels.

I think the time has come.

I've also always had the desire to go back and do

Something in my own country.

A lot of ministers come.

Uh.

To america.

And in god's providence and I would not find fault with this because god is sovereign.

They stay.

But.

I am always delighted when men go back because the needs in great britain are so

Huge and so mark johnston has gone back and is ministering in wales.

Dr Simcoe ferguson has gone back and he's Busy and active in dundee and of course in

this wonderful writing ministry.

Uh.

And i'm very just just very thankful for the privilege and open door to go back and do something I

hope for the lord's cause in my own native land.

Well, I hope that everybody listening will pray for pastor david campbell and also

pray for The north preston evangelical church and that website again is

npec .org Uk np for north

preston ec for evangelical church .org dot uk.

And also don't forget to pray for grace baptist church of carlisle As they seek

for a new pastor and obviously that Is going to be a very

important Event in the life of this church.

And.

The website there is grace baptist carlisle .org grace baptist carlisle .org.

We're going to get our final break of the program today.

And when we return we're going to be touching.

A little bit on pastor david's book one of his books the lord's day.

Why go to church twice on sundays?

And if you have any questions our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with pastor david campbell.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnson.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the second hour is pastor david campbell.

Who has been the pastor of grace baptist church of carlisle pennsylvania?

From.

2002 through this month in 2016.

And he has now accepted a call a senior pastor of north preston evangelical church in northern

england.

Right now we're going to be addressing His book the lord's day.

Why go to church twice on sundays?

And what was the uh catalyst that uh, really?

Compelled you to write this book.

To begin with pastor david.

Well, first of all, thank you chris for the opportunity to Come and talk about

this Day one That publishes this

is.

Some of the readers will know that is from the first day of the week.

Uh, that's actually the publishing arm of the lord's day observance society

and when I lived in england, I was uh Involved with the lord's day or ldos as it's

more commonly.

Known as not to be confused with the lds the latter -day saints.

This is the lord's day observance society.

It's quite an old institution.

And I was on their council And involved in You know some

of the decision making with regard to day one.

So the very fact that I was on that council reflects my convictions

about the fourth commandment being of contemporary relevance

that the law of god continues to have its

Application to today.

But though we no longer gather for worship On the seventh day we

gather on the first day.

It is still the outworking of the ancient sabbath principle that there is one

day in seven.

Now the lord's day the first day of the week.

That is set apart as a very special day a holy day.

A day that is to be different from the other days of the week and to be viewed

very much as a gift.

The sabbath was made for man originally and the lord's day is His gift to

his people for their benefit And blessing.

So I love the lord's day and i've always been uh committed to it.

And.

The catalyst for this book.

Uh, I suppose that the thing that really prompted me more than anything else was

An article in the day one magazine By an english

minister by the name of john benton.

John benton's name may be familiar to some of the listeners.

And this was a reprint of an article that he had Contributed to evangelicals

now, which is a news christian newspaper that he himself edits.

And.

I think it was quite a similar title to this why go to church

twice on sundays.

And.

He began by lamenting the fact that all through Christian history

there has been a practice of attending twice on the lord's day.

Morning and evening or morning and afternoon and it's only really in recent

decades that the church has Signet and in significant

numbers ceased that time -honored ancient

practice.

And then he went on to give I think my memory served me maybe seven good

reasons for The practice of

coming out twice on the lord's day.

It sowed a seed in my mind.

It's dovetailed with the convictions that i've had as a pastor That you know

members of the church should come out twice on the lord's day.

And.

It's something that I have endeavored to encourage.

We've never made it a matter of Of ironclad obligation where it's never been a an

issue of church discipline, but nevertheless as a pastor and as a board We have tried to encourage

Attendance twice from the lord's day.

Anyway, uh, I read this Little article by by john benton

and I thought I would like to write something for our own congregation.

So this Booklet that day one has published the lord's day.

Why go to church twice on sunday began as a booklet specifically for

grace baptist church.

And it Followed much the same track as john benton's article but

was considerably longer.

Uh went into detail on a number of the reasons.

Uh, it subsequently came to the attention of the editors of the uh of day one and

they Have a series called sundays are great days.

They have Now just recently well, it's in the past year, I think it was I

think it published last year and if you're familiar if the readers are familiar many of them

with uh Ultimate questions.

Yes.

This booklet is the same size and in a not

dissimilar Format in that it's not just text.

There's lots of color illustrations.

Just to make it an attractive Booklet and it's probably about the same

length as ultimate questions, so you know That will give you some

idea of of what it is.

Crucially we have a listener in slovenia Joe who says

please ask brother campbell to address how one would.

Who isn't the pastor or or an elder?

Go about encouraging a young church to meet twice on sundays that has never met twice on

sundays.

Thank you for standing against unhealthy trends and stirring us onward to fidelity to

christ.

Well, if it's not too bold a thing to say, uh.

It might be helpful Uh to this brother to actually have a copy of this booklet.

Or a bunch of copies.

This is this is the great thing about this is it's at such a price that you can actually buy

multiple copies.

And give it out to the church maybe.

My suggestion would be that he would give.

Or even if he's not able to access this.

To go and talk to his pastor.

If he does have a copy of this Give it to the pastor.

And.

Try to engage with the leadership and encourage them to think About

sunday evening worship.

If if there's no Uh progress in that and uh, or

whilst that's developing it might be good for this brother

to Start something in his own home.

Maybe to have a little bible study a little prayer meeting so that.

Uh.

And to do it with the If possible with the support of the

leadership of the church.

It's not taking folks away from something else.

And.

Who knows how that might grow as god's people?

They meet together as a church on the sunday morning, but then this brother has them perhaps to their home

to his home and they Uh pray together this.

Maybe listen to a tape or a tape cd.

Uh, i'm getting old.

No tapes nowadays.

Uh, I was in a christian bookshop recently and they had some old stock and here was one book

saying how to start a tape ministry.

And I thought the boys and girls and young people of grace baptist wouldn't know what a tape is.

So after that little digression back to.

I mean, that's a really good question.

Uh, maybe have watch a video.

Listen to a dvd cd.

And.

Just have fellowship and see where that gets to and perhaps some of the lord's people

who are part of that church will begin to Appreciate the the blessing of of

coming out twice in the lord's day.

You uh have.

Given some precedents that were set In the old testament in the synagogue and

in church history for this twice.

Uh.

Obviously in the old testament wouldn't have been sunday would have been on the sabbath the saturday sabbath.

But uh, there was a twice uh a week observance for this,

uh day set apart by god, so if you could uh.

Yes, it I mean the the roots of this go very far back.

And.

You have a pattern on the jewish sabbath.

Of.

Morning and evening.

Sacrifice which would have been morning probably and sometime in the afternoon

you have the words of psalm.

92.

It is good to praise the lord and to make music to your name almost high.

To proclaim your love in the morning and your faithfulness at night.

So again, you have this balance of of the morning and the evening.

Hmm.

The synagogue patterned itself on the temple and

on the sabbath day The people met twice.

At the very same time as the morning and evening sacrifices were being observed

in the temple.

And when you come into early church history now in terms of the first century Things are

a little obscure.

But.

In subsequent centuries, there's clear testimony To the fact that the lord's

people habitually met in the morning and in the evening.

But you know, even even as in the scriptures you have the observance of Holy

communion is the lord's supper.

It was an evening meeting.

And paul of course gathered with the saints for the breaking of bread.

It was an evening meeting and paul went on till midnight and then right on till the following morning.

The saints are together in the day of pentecost.

It's nine o 'clock in the morning.

So they've gathered in the morning and they gathered in the evening for the lord's supper.

So there's evidence even in scripture.

There's an echo of it.

I would not want to say that the scripture commands us to meet twice on the

lord's day.

But you can get away from the fact that traditionally God's

people have gathered morning and evening for worship and that has been the pattern

all through church history.

Would you say that much in the same way?

Of tithing not being specifically a command in the new testament.

That.

Christians should not look for reasons to do less than the old testament saint did in much the same way

as you're talking about the repetition of times of worship on the lord's day.

I think that's a.

It's an interesting parallel.

I haven't thought that one through chris.

I mean I would tend to agree with you that Tithing is not an obligation.

But I think you would have a very good reason for not tithing.

Uh.

At least tithing what the lord gives you.

But uh I think you know you you.

You see the pattern In the old testament pattern the synagogue the pattern in the new

testament church.

And.

It was john benton who asked this question.

Are we now in.

Well, let me get let me give you to the quote.

Are we wiser and better christians than all those who have gone before us.

Or is it actually because we are succumbing to the secular spirit of our age?

Which marginalizes god.

Have we fallen into just doing the minimum?

And that's a very searching question, uh.

One of the the sections of this booklet challenges God's

people to examine themselves.

And to to ask well, why?

If you Don't want to come out twice in the lord's day.

Or have a some kind of gathering with the saints again on the lord's day.

Why is that is it because?

Once is enough.

Is it because you would rather be doing other things?

On the lord's day and if so What does that indicate about your spiritual state?

What does that indicate?

About your priorities and that is particularly searching for those who have

Been in the habit of coming out twice in the lord's day and now Are not

doing that.

Ask yourself Is this a sign of?

Growth.

Am I a better christian a more useful christian?

Or is it rather?

That this is indicative of a spiritual decline.

This is actually just a symptom of something else something deeper

That really needs to be addressed.

Harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania wants to know for churches That are far

away for most in the congregation to attend twice.

Would you recommend having an afternoon meal?

At the church itself where people would stay there the whole day and then have their evening worship afterward.

Yes, I mean there's there's different things that you can do historically the

churches My native land for example that the tradition was a

forenoon and an afternoon service.

And then the evenings would be spent at home and fathers would catechize their children.

And you know they would just seek to put the lord's day evening to a good use.

And you know particularly in country areas where people walked to church.

And it may take them an hour a couple of hours to get there and they would meet.

And they would have you know, they would bring something to eat and then they would have the afternoon service.

And then they would have to get to walk back before it got dark.

So I mean the practicalities of.

Life.

You know life in those days A morning and an afternoon service just

dovetailed with that.

My friend john miller I was talking he's a church planter in clarksville

Tennessee.

Covenant baptist church.

They've just recently had to relocate.

They have been had been using Seventh -day adventist church and they've

eventually rented a a united methodist church building.

And they meet now in the afternoon.

And john was telling me that they had the afternoon service then they had sunday school and then they had a fellowship

Meal and then they had the evening worship.

So things are much more compressed.

So yes I think it's a great thing when if a lot of people Are

traveling a great distance if that's really where the congregation is then Let's

not bind ourselves by laws that the bible hasn't but rather seek

to As best we can Observe this pattern and

get the benefit and blessing of it.

You seem to emphasize in the book that one of the reasons you're recommending or urging the church

to uh twice Meeting twice on the lord's day is the fact that it

is the lord's day.

And that people should be dedicating most of that day in

worship Of him and learning about him And singing praise to him

etc and fellowshipping with his people.

Yes.

Uh.

Morning and evening worship gives expression to the fact that god has given us

Not just a special morning but a special day.

It is a great help when it comes to keeping the whole day

holy.

Which is what we should be trying to do because it's our new testament sabbath the lord's day.

It gives a sense of beginning and ending the day with god.

As the church of god has historically done and I think these are great advantages that come

from evening worship.

Now arnie in perry county pennsylvania wants to know how do you answer objections to those who say

that the twice?

Uh meeting twice on the lord's day prevents intimate family get -togethers

privately in their homes.

For especially for those who work six days a week.

Well, that's a very good question.

I would say first of all that there's nothing better

That christians can do as families.

Than.

Come together to church.

And if possible to do that twice, it's a great family thing to do.

Uh and dad and mom.

Kids, they're together in god's house.

And the children are learning to worship god.

What?

Better family thing to do.

It is a fact that historically I mentioned this a moment ago that you know historically.

That.

This is well documented In biography and in church history.

I think of my native land.

Where.

Very very strong views of the sabbath were kept.

It's one of the distinguishing marks of scottish christianity was its love for the lord's day.

And you would have the pattern of forenoon and afternoon worship and then in the evenings.

You know the whole time would be spent with the children.

Family would gather Father would catechize them.

They would sing.

And they would discuss the sermon.

And.

Yes, i'm sure human nature being as it is there were places where that was a weariness.

And it was done harshly.

But I have come across endless testimony chris.

From.

Children who become ministers looking back on a godly father on a well -kept

sabbath.

I'm loving the influence of that.

So how do you spend the afternoon and I speak as a father, I mean I.

We've got two girls who Who are now adults and they're married and I am deeply

thankful that they have high views of the lord's day themselves.

We.

Had morning and evening worship.

They had an afternoon sunday school, but we still had time together.

We would often go for a walk.

On.

Sunday afternoon and we just enjoy being out together.

That's perfectly fine.

When they were older, you know that we would have special times after the evening service.

When we're all relaxed at the end of the day, there is no incompatibility Between the

observance of coming out twice on the lord's day and having quality Family

time which is a very important thing for the lord's day.

And i'm assuming from things that you've already said that we have to be careful no matter what

a conviction we are drawn to hold from our study of the scriptures and history and

Examining our consciences before god as to our motivations.

For doing things that we must be careful not to harshly judge other christians who

View things differently than we do.

I agree and I would make it my starting point that there is

no there's no commandment of scripture.

We're dealing with something that is.

It really begins for me with the fact that the lord's day is the lord's day and that.

You come to this question that you must ask.

How can I put the lord's day to the best use?

For the sake of my soul.

For the sake of my children for the sake of my fellow Christians for the sake of the world

i'm our witness.

We are bombarded with the world's six days.

God's book is a big book.

Uh, he's given us a pastor.

He's given us freedom.

He's given us time and place to meet.

How can we make best use of that and you turn to the bible and you turn to church history?

And you find that that the answer to that has been morning and evening.

And I would say have a very good reason for not doing it.

Before you give up on it.

And.

Considering all the benefits and blessings that there are that flow from that I would say be positive

about it.

And You know, even even to to christians who conscientiously don't believe that the fourth commandment

applies to today.

Uh.

Who believe that they're at liberty to use the day as they would wish.

I would still say.

Face up to the challenge of making the very best use of the liberty that you believe that you have.

How can you best put that to?

Use for your benefit and the benefit of others.

And the answer of church history is well here's one way.

And I say after all this Time and the ancient pattern

Are we wiser?

Than.

The whole church of christ.

And the experience of all the saints.

I think that that is the wisest and best use of the time that we have.

Well, I'd like you uh in the three minutes or actually less than three minutes about two.

Minutes that we have left to really just unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their

hearts.

And minds today in this program.

Robert Murray McShane great scottish divine Wrote a tract called.

I love the lord's day.

And I I want to stress to people the lord's day is not a burden.

And don't think about it as something that of an exacting god.

But it is the gift of a gracious god who loves us who knows what's best for us.

And to come to the lord's day and to this whole question of how i'm going to use it with that in

mind That god knows what's best for us.

He knows our physical needs.

He knows our spiritual needs.

He knows our emotional and mental needs.

And our need for one another our need for the lord's supper and Worship and he's

given us this day.

He's given us in this nation liberty and brothers and sisters and pastors and

Make the best use of that.

How can I best use?

The gift and I think it was uh, dr joseph piper who spoke about Use the analogy of

fencing off the lord's day.

And I love that illustration fence off from the other days of the week and guard it.

Be jealous for it.

For your own sake and for your family's sake.

Well pastor campbell.

It has been a joy to have you in the studio.

I hope it's not the last time you're in the studio, but Uh, certainly we are going to make every effort to

interview you by phone As often as we can in the future.

And the website for the church that you will now be pastoring is npec .org .uk

Npec .org .uk.

God bless you brother and my prayers are with you For a long and productive future for the kingdom of

god.

Thank you.

Chris.

It's been a pleasure to be with you today, and it's been a pleasure not only becoming your friend But also having

you serve as my under shepherd In christ's flock in carlisle.

And I look forward to speaking with you again soon, and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives

That jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.