Hard Conversations About Race Within the Church | Isaac Adams

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00:10

Isaac Adams. Shonda Mars. The Room for Nuance podcast. Will you open us in prayer?

00:15

I would love to brother. All right. Thank you for having me. Let's pray. Yeah. Father, we come in the name of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And we ask Lord that you would be glorified in this conversation, that the words of our mouths and the meditations of our heart would be pleasing and acceptable in your sight.

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And Lord, we confess we need help for that. Yes. And we need wisdom, not the wisdom from below, but the wisdom from above that is peaceable and open to reason, full of mercy, impartial, sincere, that leads to a harvest of peace and righteousness.

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Father, help us, we pray. Thank you for this effort. Bless this initiative. Bless this conversation. Lord, we love you.

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In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you, brother. Well, Isaac, can you just give people a 30 second bio of who you are?

01:07

30 second? I thought this was room for nuance. You're right. Okay. Here's the 30 second box. 35 seconds. Bio, who

01:15

I am. Yeah, yeah. Let's see, Isaac Adams, I've been your friend for a long time.

01:21

I like that you started there. Hey, man, you know. Many moons. I love my wife, I'm married.

01:27

Let's see, I'm the lead pastor of Iron City Church in Birmingham, Alabama. For two years now?

01:33

Coming on two, yeah. Nice. Yeah, yeah, man. Before that, I was in Capitol Hill, at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, Washington, D .C.

01:41

Served a number of different positions there. I was a pastor on staff. Can I pause you right there?

01:48

I love your story, bro. This isn't a part of my 35 seconds. No, not at all. You were a member. I was.

01:53

Faithful. Became an intern. Faithful. Became a pastor. Well, yes,

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I was around, yeah, you were there. And then pastoral assistant, yes? Faithful.

02:04

And then assistant pastor, right? And then associate? Stopped at assistant. Stopped at assistant.

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I just, we hope that that's the story of guys in our church, right? We're just raising up faithful dudes who are just, yeah, trying to get after in a ministry.

02:18

Praise God, man. Well, I mean, they, I mean, I think they were doing, I got a text that I got, my name was mentioned at a members meeting.

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You know, those texts are always fun. I'm like, ooh. But, you know, no, it was all good. They were,

02:31

I think, talking about their VBS, and I think Mark said something like, and Isaac Adams can happen this way.

02:37

Like, you know, so I was a kid. I had Mark, Mark Dever, his son went to school with me, so we were childhood friends.

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I was never a member of the church, but then when I came back to do the internship, joined it. Gotcha. That's the road you laid out.

02:50

So yeah, but now the assistant pastor, she's really like the residency program there.

02:55

I was sent out to be the pastor here in Birmingham, Alabama, a place I never thought I'd live.

03:00

We can talk about that. I'm married to Megan. I saw this thing the other day.

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I thought it was really good. This dude said, I don't call my wife my best friend. That's a demotion. And I was like, oh.

03:12

Okay, all right, let's circle back around to that one. Yeah, so married to Megan. We have three little kids.

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So I always say our kids look like little balls of peanut butter on wheels, just running around. I mean, literally.

03:24

Hey, you can say that. I can say that, but don't say that. I hate that. Yeah, man.

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So anyway, and then last thing, founded a ministry called United We Pray, which is now a part of Iron City Church, which is devoted to helping

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Christians pray and think about racial strife. Spoken word artist? I'd say retired.

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Retired, same. I'd say retired, but Sean, I heard a piece the other day and it made me want to break it back out.

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Like, I was like, can I pull this off in time for, I don't want to time stamp our podcast, but like, can

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I get this done in time for Easter? And I was like, no, I have to get a sermon done, so. You think you still got it? Muscle memory?

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I'd like to think that, but. You know, it's always, I mean, writing, it's always clear up here and then you go to write it and it's like, it ain't.

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And also author, author of Talking About Race, Gospel, Hope for Hard Conversations.

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This is going to be the bulk of our conversation today. But also the author of this little booklet that I give away all the time.

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I recently just read a section of it to our congregation in our Sunday morning service to not only encourage, but to exhort them to go get a copy and to read it.

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This is What If I'm Discouraged in My Evangelism, part of the Nine Marks Little Questions and Answer Series or Church Question Series.

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And we're going to get to this a little bit later, but a tiny book, very, very, very largely helpful.

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Praise God, man. Let's edit that. Tiny book, largely helpful, all right? Or don't edit it, who cares?

04:57

So brother, let's just get into it. Let's do it. Would it be, would it be naive of me to ask you for a 10 ,000 foot overview of the

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American evangelical landscape when it comes to thinking about race? Is that, is that too big of a, of an ask?

05:20

Probably. Well, I mean, I can certainly try, but I appreciate even the recognition that it could be that, because I think a lot of people are like, well, what is it?

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And I'm like, well, where are we talking about? What, who are we talking about? But I think there are, you know, we were talking about this even on United We Pray, like doing kind of like, what's the state of the union here?

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Like what's, what's going on? And I think, let me, I just am so glad my answers don't have to be 30 seconds.

05:49

So let me just say a few things. Yeah. One right now, I would say where we're at right now, 2023,

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American evangelicalism, is people are, the fractures have happened and people have taken their balls and gone.

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Would you say the fault lines? You can.

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But I mean, like, insofar as that's an accurate metaphor. I think it is. I think it is.

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There's real fault lines, it's real. And I was even gonna, you know, play upon that metaphor when I go back.

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But like where we're at right now, I think it's, you know, the conversation in so many ways has stopped.

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I don't think it's kind of, we could call it a detente. We could call it, you know,

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DMZ. But I don't even think it's that. Like, I think it's like, the forces aren't even present.

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It's like, you do your thing over there. I'm doing my thing over there. You know, some of that I'm sure is commendable.

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Life is short. I'm like, I'm going to stay on the wall. I'm not gonna come down. Jesus is coming soon and, you know,

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I love him and I'll see him in heaven. But I think, you know, I think

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Satan's also getting a win on some of that. So that's where we're at right now, okay? 10 ,000 foot. But I think if we're talking kind of like what happened or we can talk really about the last, let's call it 10 to 11 years.

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2012, Trayvon Martin happens. 2014, Michael Brown happens.

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2020, George Floyd. And sadly, and I'm pointing to those three instances because sadly,

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I think there's a genre of killings like that. Be it Ahmaud Arbery, Walter Scott, we could go through so many,

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Philando Castile. I'm not saying they're all the same. I'm not saying, you know, they're all unique cases, but let's just talk about what our churches were feeling.

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I mean, the sort of icons of our discontent, right? Sure, and I mean, in the language, and tragedies nonetheless.

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And frankly, I don't care where you stand on this. These are the things that we're all bickering about, talking about.

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Yes, lamenting, grieving, questioning. And so those three events, tragedies, let's call them.

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And in some cases, I mean, you know, even the Walter Scott, it's clear, it's been ruled injustice.

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This was Walter Scott, or I was even thinking Ahmaud Arbery. It's so sad that I get the names confused because there's so many.

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But anyway, those three, Trayvon, Michael Brown, George Floyd, really represent,

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I think, three kind of epicenters. And the tremors of those, so this is the kind of earthquake fault line metaphor.

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The tremors of those were felt throughout evangelicalism. I think in different ways where Trayvon was, now, again, this is a very limited perspective, 100 ,000 foot view on 10 years.

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We're not talking about 1865. We're not talking about Frederick Douglass. We're not talking about Francis Grimke, but we could, right?

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So limited view. But just for this specific question, with those three epicenters, tremors were felt and Trayvon was like, whoa, what's going on, right?

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Michael Brown's like, we need to talk about this. And George Floyd's like, we have to talk about this.

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Or at least you have to pick your side, I have to pick my side. And then in the middle of that, you have

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President Trump and all of the things represented in there. So you've seen the kind of clamoring and then the biting and devouring that James speaks of.

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I think some of that is because we're made in the image of God and we care about justice. We serve a

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God of justice. Justice and righteousness are the foundation of his throne, the

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Psalms say. And so we care about those things and it's right to. And so we are animated by them.

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And yet we have a real adversary that hates the church of God, that knows

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Jesus said, this is how the world will know you're my disciples, by the way you love one another. And if y 'all are one, the world will understand that the father really did send the son.

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So Satan has a vested interest in us not being one and in us hating each other. And so anyway, man, so all that to say,

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I think that's, we went from a phase of kind of, I mean, Sean, it seemed like it was all good 11 years ago.

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It really did. We were at the same conferences. We were on the same - Legacy in Chicago. Yeah, it was just like, we're just, it's all good.

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Like this is, and some people maybe would even use like, it seems like revivals happening, but like sin got in the way and is in the way and it's sad.

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So I was just on the phone with someone, another pastor up here, he's like, I'm just sad by where things are. I don't know who my friends are.

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Feel like the middle is just evaporating. And I don't know if that's a hundred thousand feet or 10 ,000 feet, but that's what

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I'd say. But I say right now, I feel like all that fighting has happened and now cats are like,

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I'm taking my ball. A settling has taken place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not a, certainly not a restoration of relationship and fellowship.

11:03

Yeah. Okay, so in light of people settling in their different positions, some less thoughtfully, more reactionarily, if that's a word, some more thoughtful, right?

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They took this time to do the work, to read, to study, listen, pray, have hard conversations. And maybe they've even still arrived at, well, not maybe, we still have arrived at various conclusions about the race question in relation to the gospel, in relation to American life.

11:30

Sure. Where would you say you and I land differently?

11:35

Not necessarily on this idea or that idea, but maybe if we were just to do what we did on your podcast, to take the sort of Kevin DeYoung, one through four, right?

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I mean, in the Defending Confirmed podcast, we did like a 15 part series on critical theory, a six part series critiquing critical race theory.

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That has, in many people's minds, sort of put me in one camp. You have the United We Pray podcast.

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You've spoken in certain ways that has, in the minds of some, put you in a different camp. Yet I'm inclined to think that you and I have more in common than we have, right?

12:11

So, but what would you say, if you were to say, okay, Isaac and Sean, how far apart are we?

12:18

Man, that's such a good question because it's such a hard question. I feel like even people listened to our podcast we did for United We Pray, where we were trying to tease some of this out.

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And one brother, another brother pastor, who both you and I know, he just said, it's funny how much agreement there is when you sit down and define terms.

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So I do think there's, I'm sure there are differences, like even some, we'll plan on teasing out on some projects, we're putting our heads together on.

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I mean, to use that taxonomy you just laid out, I'm sure you're probably three and I'm two, maybe, or I'm 2 .5

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and you're - 3 .5. I was going to say, if I feel like I'm closer to three, then you are to four.

13:10

Ah, okay. Well, you know, I guess - So I'm bringing us even closer. Well, I think the reason why I said that is it just depends on who

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I'm talking to. And you probably feel the same way, right? That's for sure. Like some people think I'm a nine, right?

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And some people think I'm a two. Some people think I'm a one, which blows my mind. You know, the TGC debate,

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I said, Tim Keller isn't woke. And still dealing with the blowback from that to this day.

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Oh, well, yeah, it's nothing. But this is coming from a guy who has very much tried to attack and eviscerate critical theory, right?

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And it's various manifestations. So in our context, if somebody who has made it sort of their mission to eviscerate critical theory is called the one, then it's almost like, how can we even do this taxonomy?

13:57

Yeah, then I'm like, you know, negative five on that taxonomy. So, man,

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I mean, like, I think, like, I just wanna, what I would wanna highlight is we do have the most important things in common.

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That's true of every Christian. So, and we could go through that and rejoice in that. And that's obviously true.

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I think we probably share a lot in common. Maybe, I mean, maybe some of it is how we respond.

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I don't wanna say missiologically, but how we respond to those things in the past or the primacy of a perspective on the past and how that would affect how we would address certain conversations, realities today.

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I mean, like, I don't know what statements, I was thinking about one that I was like, man, I felt like I could have teased it better on the

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United We Pray podcast. It was just like, when I hear the statement, just preach the gospel, I think it's problematic on a level.

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Not because I don't love the gospel. So don't, anyone wanting to take a soundbite, there it is.

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But I love the gospel. I preached it last night and preached it last Sunday. I'm preaching it next Sunday. I can't wait.

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Yeah, it's your life's work. It is. And it's just like, man, I mean, it is so good.

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I mean, the gospel, okay, I said we wouldn't rejoice in these things, but let's go ahead and rejoice. Let's do it. And it's just this pool that is endlessly deep.

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And the wonder of it is the further you dive, the more you breathe. I mean, it's just so,

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I just feel like I'm, and as a pastor, and really like, you know, as a pastor who's like, okay, I'm the lead guy now.

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I'm just seeing what it does to a person and a group of people. I'm like, this is other worldly.

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This is powerful. This is supernatural. So love the gospel. But what all I would say, so I think, but I think you would see that statement maybe.

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I think, you can tell me if I'm wrong. Sure. Yes and amen. Yes and amen. And like the nuance I would add to it is like, well,

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I think Jesus commanded us to teach them to obey all that he commanded.

16:03

Yeah. Not to just simply proclaim this message of good news.

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Right. And - But the good news has implications. The good news has - For how you live in the kingdom. Has implications, so much so that James was like, if you don't rock with those implications, it calls into the very question, the good news that you say you believe.

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Your faith is dead. Faith without works is dead. And so I think you probably agree with that nuance.

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Maybe you don't. 100%. Okay, so then, but like, I think people would see us and see, well, Isaac says the gospel's not enough and Sean does and Isaac would, you know, maybe chew out some, chew up meat, spit out bones on some

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CRT stuff, even though I don't really want to talk about CRT. I just think Paul's so right when he's talking about - Grace's question.

16:47

Yeah, well, Paul's so right when he's talking about, like, you know, it only stirs up quarrels. So anyway, but that's to answer that question on some of our, but I would genuinely say,

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Sean, and even maybe some of the circles you're associated with, like, you lean more conservative and I don't know that I would use the word liberal, but I lean the other way.

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So I don't know what you say. Yeah. So I don't know what to call that. Progressive and liberal sounds too political, a label.

17:15

And when I think of you, I don't think liberal. I think most of our disagreements deal in the arena of, like, extent, perhaps definition.

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So systemic racism, I think that's a real thing. The extent to which it's present in America today,

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I think you and I would probably disagree on it. How you define racism, I think is something that we might disagree on.

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Although we would both wholeheartedly affirm that any kind of ethnic partiality is a sin that we will be punished for in hell if we don't repent of it.

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And I think that means of common grace, how much we can pull from things like CRT, there'd be some disagreement there.

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But even in that little sort of theological triage, we see that the most important things we have in common.

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We do, and I think, you know, you and I have had these conversations, and I think one thing, you know,

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Sean, that I appreciate about our friendship is that we have a friendship outside of these things.

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So it's just not all we talk about. Like we're pastors, we're - I think only on podcasts about race have we really talked about race.

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That's why we're like feeling our way around. But, so I appreciate that. But I do think both you and I are versed in that kind of triage and what you just did in like a minute to commend you, people don't do.

18:37

Correct. So the conversation stops at when I just said, yeah, I think preaching the gospel or, you know, just preach the gospel is a problematic statement.

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The conversation stops right there. And now I need the wisdom to know who I'm talking to, to say like, well,

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I'm not gonna throw this firebomb out there. They're not gonna understand what I mean. I have a responsibility as a communicator to, but I think what you've just done is like, we've discovered the common ground and been like, here it is.

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And here are these nuances on the side and that are super important because they actually allow us to see each other and work together and love each other,

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I think. Well, praise God, brother. I think we're already starting to hopefully role model by God's grace, talking about race.

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Well, which is the title of your book. And that's kind of what I really want this entire episode to be.

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I read your book from cover to cover. I thought the most helpful parts of your book where you are, are the parts where you're shepherding people through like, hey, you think and say this, and here's a better way to think.

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And here's a, I felt you shepherding these imaginary characters in your book. And I thought, oh, that's exactly what

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I do with my people. I've got this person in my church who said something that I think actually is slightly racist.

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And I'm trying to think what's the best way I can help them like correct that. And then I have this person over here who says something crazy on the opposite end of the spectrum.

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I'm trying to think, okay, how do I shepherd them? Not bludgeon them, right? But shepherd them into the truth, right?

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So I thought that - Which right there, that is a different approach. Very different. Certainly then let's just call it

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Twitter. Twitter is Rome in this sense. It is a brutal world. And it is, you are out of step, you will be destroyed.

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You will be obliterated, eviscerated, crucified, destroyed.

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And that approach, I hope by God's grace, sorry to cut you off. But I just want to draw out the things because these are the nuances.

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Like I'm like, if you don't catch it, you'll miss how you get to this kind of conversation. And I think this kind of heart and posture, which

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I think at the end of the day is frankly a less angsty place to be. Just an easier place to be.

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Though maybe a more heartbroken place to be, but a softer place to be. But I would just say what is represented there,

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I hope - And softer doesn't mean weak. No, I think if anything, it might mean stronger.

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I mean, that's a kind of kingdom of God paradox. Like weak is strong, soft is powerful.

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But what I would say is what you just talked about, not bludgeoning your people. I think people would hear that and be like, kick that person who just said that.

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Some of my friends would say, kick that person who just said that somewhat racist thing out of your church.

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And it's like, well, 2 Timothy 2, 24 is the controlling thing for both you and I. That the

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Lord's servant must be kind to everyone. Even his enemies. Even his enemies.

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It's not everyone who agrees with you, not everyone who is on your side of the taxonomy, but to everyone.

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And it's that very kindness that might, God might - Use it to lead them to repentance.

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Use them to lead them to repentance, just like he did in his kindness toward us. That doesn't mean you tolerate,

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I mean, he gives us instruction for tolerating and not tolerating clear morals, failure and sin.

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But it ain't conversation one, bludgeon, you're out. That's right. There is a certain advantage that we have as pastors in thinking through these things, because we are so used to dealing with a plethora of people, all of whom are at various places in their sanctification journey.

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And so it's just not hard for us to be like, oh, you believe something wrong. We're going to have to work on that.

22:33

That's just normal. I think you're godlier than me. I think it's a little harder for me. Bro, you haven't seen me on my worst day.

22:41

Okay, you haven't. I certainly have more categories than probably the average person does as a pastor.

22:48

Okay, but now back to the point that I was getting at here. I don't agree with everything in your book, which this would be a miraculous book if I did, right?

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I mean - I think I say in the first few pages, you don't have to agree to be godly. And so this is why I wanted us to talk about our differences because I want us in this podcast to do what this book is really all about.

23:10

It's how to have difficult conversations. It's not how to have conversations in rooms with people that you, with whom you are in complete agreement, right?

23:19

Echo chamber conversations are the easiest conversations in the world, right? But even where there's minor disagreements, especially along such an explosive topic like race, conversations can be really difficult.

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And so I just want us to have these conversations. I want us to spend the next hour and change role modeling what it looks like to have difficult conversations about race.

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And I pray that God gives us the grace to do that. And we will need his grace to do it. And on that, what you just said about the echo chamber,

23:49

Jared Wilson, I think said something really helpful. He said, the easiest sins to preach against are the sins of the people who aren't in the room.

23:56

So we're coming back to that. We're going to talk about Trevin Wax's idea of multi -directional leadership.

24:01

I think I want to hear your thoughts on that, but let's start off with a doozy.

24:09

You've seen it. You've seen it. The mic will, oh, and by the way, this is not going to be like gotcha journalism.

24:15

I'm not going to try to, no, no, no. This is a doozy in the sense that I think it'll just lead to a very fruitful discussion.

24:22

Okay. And my intent in this is not even to be like an interlocutor. I'm not trying to debase you.

24:28

I genuinely want to hear your thoughts. And yeah, and just want to hear your thoughts.

24:34

So you've probably seen the Mike Wallace, Morgan Freeman, 60

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Minutes interview clip. It's been posted everywhere, especially since 2011 as he's raised conversation.

24:45

I'll read it for you in case you're, it's not registering with you. Mike Wallace asks

24:50

Morgan Freeman about Black History Month. Morgan Freeman says, I don't like it. And he goes, what month is your history month?

24:57

And he goes, well, I don't have one. And he goes, well, why should I have one? And so on and so forth, the conversation goes until Mike Wallace asks an easy question of Mr.

25:08

Morgan Freeman, how are we going to get rid of racism? And Freeman responds like this, stop talking about it.

25:16

I'm going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.

25:21

I know you as Mike Wallace. You know me as Morgan Freeman. You want to say, well, I know this white guy named

25:27

Mike Wallace, you know what I'm saying. And then they go on and they've, you know, Mike Wallace is descendant of Jewish ancestry and so on and so forth.

25:35

But Morgan Freeman here is advocating for kind of the opposite of what you're advocating for.

25:42

And brother, listen, I know that even when it comes to the subject of race, there is no such thing as like a black monolith, right?

25:50

Like different black people are going to have different opinions about how to handle this conversation. But as a guy who has black friends who are on both sides of the conversation, let's

26:01

Morgan Freeman stop talking about it. Even atheist, secular philosopher, Sam Harris, right?

26:07

The more you look at it, the worse it becomes. Let's treat skin color like the color of people's eyes. It just doesn't really register.

26:15

Versus we need to talk about it. You are obviously, you wrote a book about it in the, we need to talk about it category.

26:22

What would you say to Morgan Freeman if you were sitting here today and you were having that conversation with him?

26:28

I'd say, number one, you have an incredible voice that I'm jealous of. I want you to narrate the story of my life.

26:35

Please do. Yeah, I mean, Morgan is... I feel like I need to call him

26:41

Mr. Freeman. Right, yeah. Yeah, Morgan's arguing for what would traditionally be called colorblindness.

26:48

Now, it's interesting, I just, I love the nuance. So let me add a nuance.

26:54

I don't think what I'm advocating is necessary. I certainly am advocating talking about it. To a degree, though I certainly talk about like, hey, here are times to stop the conversation or when you should, like, but let me just say,

27:07

I would say the opposite of colorblindness is a full -blown kind of what might be called an anti -racism.

27:14

And I think there are aspects that... Which, sorry, just to find, anti -racism doesn't just mean being against racism.

27:21

Well, yeah, this would be... Thank you for asking for the definition. What I would say is a more, with more secular...

27:32

Secular... Like a hyper -race awareness. Yeah, like a hyper... That's probably the simplest... You say it here in your book, color consumed.

27:39

Yes. You have this helpful chart on page 64. Yes. On the right, colorblind, ostensibly ignoring race and ethnicity completely, right?

27:48

Yes. And then, and I like how you have white, black and gray color coding. And then on the opposite side, there's color consumed, seeing everything through the lens of race and ethnicity.

27:57

And in the middle, this is what you're advocating, color consciousness, or to be color conscious, celebrating how all people are fearfully and wonderfully made and showing no partiality while compassionately honoring different experiences.

28:11

And I think one brother who I think is doing really good work on this is George Yancey, where he walks through the models of colorblindness, anti -racism, and he critiques those models.

28:24

Is that in Working Past Racial Gridlock? That's Beyond Racial Gridlock, what you're referring to.

28:29

The book I'm talking about is Beyond Racial Division. Okay. So that's what I would say on that. But the reason I say that is because not,

28:38

I understand what Morgan Freeman is getting at in not looking at it.

28:44

And what I would say to, or not, I forget. I almost want you to reread the quote, but I won't make us take the time to do that.

28:52

No, that's fine. He says, you know, stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.

28:59

Yeah. I'll just sort of know you as, I think it's the echo of the 1960s.

29:05

You know, like the protestors, the black protestors holding up signs that say, am

29:10

I not a man? Yeah. And the point there for them was, don't see me, first of all, as a black man, see me as a man.

29:18

Yeah. And on so much of that, I understand because they were saying, I am human.

29:23

They were fighting for that. So, and you know what Morgan is getting at was saying, I am more than my blackness, let's call it.

29:32

Yes and amen. Like we are, we, and that's why I have characters in this book, because I realized pretty quickly just to write a didactic, well, white people think this and black people think, it wouldn't work.

29:45

You needed the kind of flesh. People are way more complicated. Yes, like people are complicated. They say true things and unhelpful things.

29:52

They say, and so, and so that's, so on that,

29:57

I'm like, yes and amen. And on one level, you know, well, here's what, here's the critique

30:03

I would offer Morgan. I'd say, Morgan, I appreciate what you're getting at. Appreciate, you know, all the things you're saying and we can talk about race being a social construct and all those things, and they're not really existing.

30:16

You can, but like, we could talk about it being a biological fiction, but a social fact maybe.

30:22

But what I'd really say is like, is not the way you look a part of God's design for you?

30:28

And is not the way I look part of God's design for me? And in other words, is this kind of diversity simply a mistake, like God spilled the paint in heaven or is it something that can be recognized and appreciated?

30:43

And I feel like the colorblind approach looks at the matter and is just like, just ignore it.

30:51

Just ignore it. It causes problems when we go there. And maybe the best kind of perspective they'd say, it produces quarreling when we go there, it produces strife, it produces injustice.

31:01

And certainly it does. You have to, and they're saying, when you're consumed with it, as you have to be to say whites only, they were so hyper -conscious, it just went the other way where it was terrible, it was horrible.

31:14

And yet, is there a way? But I think there's, I think folks are often trying to throw out all the bad bath water, but they wind out throwing the baby of goodness in the conversation that we can have.

31:27

That's one thing I'd say. One thing, if Mr. Freeman were a Bible man, he would be quick,

31:35

I think, to quote Colossians 3 .11. Here there is not Greek and Jew circumcised and uncircumcised barbarians to the enslaved free, but Christ is all and in all.

31:45

What a beautiful verse, right? And colorblind advocates will say, see, see, it's

31:51

Bible. And I'm like, man, yes and amen, but two things real quick.

31:57

Number one, and I think it's the verse in Galatians where he says, there's neither male or female.

32:04

We agree that there is. No one's gender blind. And we run the church as if that's true. Women's small groups, men's small groups.

32:11

No issues. Men pastors. Yeah, men pastors, right, there's real realities. We run the church as if that's true.

32:17

And even on that front, I'm not even saying gender and race are the same thing, but I'm just saying, wait, he said there was no, he said there was no gender in Galatians and yet we recognize that's a reality.

32:28

And in the book of Ephesians, we know that there were still slaves within the church. And so Paul, just to come back to Colossians.

32:35

So Paul, the very Paul who wrote that in one chapter, he comes back and he says in Colossians 4 .11,

32:44

he's going through kind of his co -laborers. This one doesn't get as much play. He says, in Jesus who is called justice, these are the only men of the circumcision among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God.

32:58

And they have been a comfort to me. I think that's really interesting.

33:04

Paul is saying like, look, we got this team, it's diverse. These are the only

33:10

Jews I'm rocking with in this iteration of his ministry. And they've been a comfort to me.

33:16

It feels good to be around some Jews. I mean, it's just - Paul was the Jew of Jews. Like there was a reality, they understood what the derision and the difficulty of Paul's ministry to be ministering to Gentiles as a

33:29

Jew. And there was specific ways they could encourage Paul in that.

33:35

So when I hear Mr. Freeman just be like, well, obliterate it all. A white person can encourage you just the same as a black person, just the same as an

33:42

Asian person. I'm like, I just think you're overcorrecting in that sense.

33:48

And you're robbing yourself and others of appreciating the goodness of the similarities.

33:55

And there are real similarities and real differences. That's good, brother. So let's go back to that history question.

34:02

We are certainly not going to try to suss out all the ways in which the present is affected by the past.

34:09

Honestly, I think that's a sort of hubris. When anyone thinks that they can do that, even more than moderately well, it's just a big, complicated, tangled mess.

34:22

There's no such thing as a monocausal explanation. And there's rarely a dire tri -causal explanation as well.

34:30

So I guess one question that might be useful to ask here is, at what point do we feel like we've escaped the sort of gravitational pull of the horrors of history?

34:49

Are we still gonna be having this same conversation 20 years, 50 years, 100 years from now?

34:57

How many times are these organizations, and interpret this question in the most charitable light possible, organizations, like the

35:04

SBC has issued multiple apologies for things done in the past. Is there a point that you think we're gonna get to the place where we can, at least change the dynamic of the way we talk, and think, and relate about race, because history is so far in the rear view, and we've sort of escaped the ripples of that?

35:25

I feel like I just give the pastoral answer on this so much, or at least what I mean by that is the nuanced, yes and no, it depends.

35:34

Yeah, well, that's it folks. Thanks for coming, the room for nuance. Let me explain.

35:44

No, in the sense of, if we think we can one day escape this conversation permanently,

35:52

I think that's a naive perspective. And why I say that is why I think it's useful to have the kind of theological definition you offered for racism in ethnic partiality, and it being ethnic partiality that can be expressed in a whole lot of ways, and I'm sure we disagree on some of those expressions, but let's just say that, is because since the beginning of history, men doesn't have an expiration date.

36:15

I mean, they can be more prevalent in society or not, and I think that's what we see in the history of America, is that it was more prevalent, more explicit.

36:27

Did it die? No. And I think you would say the same thing. Racism doesn't die.

36:32

It doesn't die, that's all. I lived in the jungles of Peru, I saw racism down there. Racism doesn't die, and so when

36:38

I think, but I think folks with Mr. Freeman's perspective speak about it as if it can die.

36:46

Well, what about not racism, but specifically the things that happened, I'm speaking for the

36:51

American Evangelical Church, right? Chattel slavery, Jim Crow. Is there a point where you feel like in American Christianity, should the

37:01

Lord tarry, where the way we have the race conversation won't factor those things in anymore?

37:08

Yeah, I think this is a really useful question because I think this would probably highlight a difference. It's like a difference in,

37:15

I don't know whether to call it approach or philosophy of ministry is too big a term, but interpretation, or let's just call it approach, is

37:25

I'm not sure it should. In other words, like I appreciate the question and I certainly am not, you know, in all this,

37:35

Sean, I certainly don't think the conversation should be had ever for the purposes of white guilt, condemnation.

37:42

If the Lord wants to work godly sorrow in whoever, please Lord, work. But, so I'm not saying let's keep having the conversation for that because I want folks to be re -incriminated and I really like being on the victim side of things.

37:55

I'm not saying that, but I'm saying like, you know, Sean, churches that we would agree were racist.

38:03

Like you and I, anyone would be, that was a racist church. That was such a blemish, what

38:09

I would argue, for so long in this country that to, what

38:15

I fear about escaping it, kind of hitting the escape velocity where, and I think what you're asking is like, will we get to a point where that doesn't control the conversation?

38:23

I think so, and I think there can be some health in that, but I fear that escaping means we don't look back at that and we don't learn from that.

38:31

We don't see that that, how that could have been us, could be us and how, hey, that's made this conversation hard today.

38:43

And because, and this is, you know, where I think it's, we might disagree or a lot of people disagree is about the extent of these things.

38:52

Like, are we talking about, you know, when, you know, America's founded?

38:57

Are we talking about as soon as, you know, settlers are landing on this continent? But I'm saying if that was such a large portion of America's history, and then maybe that's a question for you is like, how long would you say that kind of explicit racism was dominating the

39:14

American evangelical church in America? Because I, and I think this is like, what would you say on that?

39:20

Because if it, let's just say, if it were a couple, what I feel like, Sean, is people would say, well, this thing that's affected us for a few centuries, we should be able to escape it within a few decades.

39:34

And I just don't get that math. I understand that with the forgiveness of our sins, it's done.

39:44

But like, I'm saying like, man, you have whole communities, all black communities, all white communities that are seeing things completely differently.

39:53

And though the fact that these communities are separate are some kind of bitter fruit of the past. I don't know who, not saying it's monocausal, but I guess what

40:02

I'm saying is, Sean, it'll take a long time. And I think that's reasonable given how pervasive that the ideologies undergirding that kind of explicit, explicitly racist society, those kinds of ideologies, how pervasive they were, how, in some sense, you know,

40:23

I call race the Velcro issue. It just touched everything. How we set up where we live, how we set up where we church, how we set up where, what kids, what -

40:31

Education, finance, so on. Because it touched so many of those things, it's like, well, now, you know, just stop seeing it that way.

40:39

And it just, it's like telling your people on Sunday, I feel like, just stop sinning. And your life will be easier.

40:47

Heaven will, Jesus will be, just stop sinning. And it's like, I just don't think it works that way.

40:53

Yeah. So if we were to move it out of the American context, Japanese Shintoism, an ideology of religion, really, of racial superiority led to Pearl Harbor in World War II.

41:09

American -Japanese relations. I know they're not 100 % equivalent. Hundreds of years of it in our land, on our soil, in our people.

41:18

I'm just trying to do a little bit of compare and contrast here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nazi Germany.

41:24

Yeah. When I was in language school as a missionary, we had some Germans come through and I would crack some

41:29

Nazi jokes, you know? Hey, listen, listen.

41:35

I think - Well, we were talking about like, The ability to joke about stuff.

41:43

The ability to joke about stuff. I don't know that on a podcast you want to be saying. No. I was cracking

41:48

Nazi jokes. But I was. So they were German and I was like, I would make some fewer jokes here and there.

41:54

But they didn't think it was funny, right? Nevertheless, I've talked to other Germans who say by and large that the country seems to have moved on from that.

42:04

Now, that was maybe a bit more concentrated, but not as lengthy. So I guess, and then you can just take really any empire in history, the

42:13

Persian Empire, the Achaemenid Empire, the Assyrian Empire, most of which was wrought with racial strife.

42:21

We know that many of those conversations have sort of moved past that.

42:27

So I guess I'm just externally processing here, but I guess I'm just wondering if it seems like it can happen elsewhere, can it happen here?

42:35

Not to the neglect of our history, not forgetting what happened. Because if you don't learn the lessons of history, you're doomed to repeat it, right?

42:43

But I like the way you phrased it, brother. Like, just not letting it be the main controlling force and factor.

42:49

What's interesting is that there are a lot of evangelicals right now who are for the first time studying the history of racism in America, and their mind is being blown.

42:58

They had no idea how bad it was. They were like, First Baptist Church said what? You know, and they did this.

43:05

And that's why there's two First Baptists in this city? Yeah, exactly. And so that's another thing that's so difficult about this conversation is that even as it feels like the tides of history should in some sense be settling, there are a lot of people who just didn't even know about the first big wave of history when it comes to racism.

43:26

So I guess all that to say, I would expect that at some point, it should, the horrific history of racism in America in general, in American evangelical

43:36

Christianity in particular, should come to bear less on these conversations. Yeah, I think that -

43:42

Sort of a forgetting what's behind, pressing on to what's ahead kind of a thing. Yeah, and I mean, this is where, again, because this is room for nuance,

43:50

I would just not use the word forgetting. I would say not being controlled by. Sure, right, okay. But what

43:56

I would also add is I think that, I don't know what to call it, but like there's a perspective and a focus that we're already employing in this conversation that I think is useful just to highlight.

44:10

And like what I would say is like, why do we feel, and well, let me pause right there and just address something real quick, of like, as a pastor, and you're a pastor, and like, man,

44:21

I don't wanna, I want there to be room for jokes. Jokes are healthy and important. And you know, this is why, you see this, even this conversation in just the comedian landscape with Dave Chappelle or whoever.

44:34

I saw, was it Cedric the entertainer? He was just saying, man, we gotta protect Dave. Like, you know, like, because art, like he can't make the jokes.

44:43

And like, it's funny for a reason, because we know it's gonna, but it's just like, it was interesting when you said like, you know, some of those

44:50

German students were not okay with it. And what I'm saying is what that gets at is the very thing

44:55

I'm talking about of like, I think it makes sense why they're not okay with it, or at least not okay with it coming from you, right?

45:03

And they can maybe make a joke that you can't. And I think - Because we beat them in the war. No. I'm just kidding, go ahead.

45:10

Well, dude, I'm sure they're not watching this and I'm sure they just turned it off and perhaps my exhortation would be, you know, don't make those jokes to them.

45:20

But, or maybe at all. But let me go back to what I was saying is there's a focus on this conversation of like, just my,

45:33

I feel like there's, there's a perspective that says, when can we move on?

45:40

That's my dominating question. Sure. When can I move on? And I'm not saying you're saying that. I just wanna be clear.

45:47

But that's what we've been talking about. When can we, when can, so that we can have health, so that we can like not be dominated by those things.

45:59

And I saw my, I think it was Mike Tomlin who said this. He's like, you know, there's a side of this conversation that's asking, when can we move on?

46:10

And there's a side of this conversation is when can we actually start talking about it? And I'm probably closer to here.

46:17

And what I mean by that is my controlling question is not, when can we be done?

46:29

When can, and you're not. Yeah, you know, that's not my controlling question. But when, at which point, at what point can we escape that?

46:38

Yeah, I think what's so interesting about this conversation is that we really are having pockets of conversations.

46:46

Because I think when I'm talking to some people, I do wanna say that. I wanna say, when can you move on, right?

46:52

When I'm talking with other people, I'm like, oh, hey, I have a book for you to read. Because like the way you think.

46:58

And here it is. Yeah, like it blows my mind how ignorant you are of the history of race and racism in America, right?

47:05

So it's even difficult because I think what Mike Tomlin said there is valid, again, depending on who you're talking to, the room you're in.

47:13

Well, and that's where Paul, you know, I'm flipping into it, but that's where Paul would talk about different centers need different responses. He's like, to the idle, admonish them.

47:21

To the weak, be, well, he said - First Thessalonians. Yeah, First Thessalonians, I think it's five. But it is interesting, he says, be patient with them all.

47:28

Right. Right, that's the key. That's the key ingredient. And that's what he keeps saying to Timothy. Be patient, be patient, and our culture hates that, right?

47:35

And that's where - Especially about race. We can't be patient. We can't be, so I wanna be, so that's where, but I think there's an even impatience, there's an impatience in this side of the conversation of when can we escape?

47:49

It's like, well, can we be patient with the conversation? And if we need to have it for a few decades, at least in my math, man, like, man,

47:59

I'm sorry, but I think that's warranted given - Some of the, so, and I'm not saying, but like what I would say is,

48:05

I think there would be a lot of people who would hear maybe the last, whatever, 20 minutes on that question and say, these guys aren't even talking about the real thing, which is, can we talk about what happened?

48:19

Can we talk about any way in which the present is affected by that, or just that, that, can we even just talk about the desire to escape the conversation when

48:34

I'm sitting in the pain of it? My family's sitting in the pain of it, and I need the

48:40

Lord to speak to this problem, not to tell me, well, just don't worry about, and again, you're not saying this, but to use

48:49

Mr. Freeman's language, well, just stop seeing me that way and stop seeing, and brother, there's lots of black people like Freeman who are like, stop talking about it, stop teaching your kids that.

48:59

So stop teaching them that they're victims, stop teaching them that they're, and I think there's truth in that, and it can be truth in that, but I also think there's a reality of German, of your

49:10

German friends who are like, well, that's not funny to me, and it's not funny for a reason.

49:16

Yeah, yeah. Multidirectional leadership. Okay, okay. I've not read the book.

49:22

Sure, it's a tiny little book. I would recommend any of our readers to check it out, especially if you're in the church, and again, you probably, he just kind of puts a fine point on things that I think we sort of intuitively grasp as pastors, which is on a

49:40

Sunday morning, I know when I talk about assurance, I have to say this thing to this group of people, and then

49:47

I have to qualify it and say this thing so that these people don't mishear what I'm saying over here. So let me just use -

49:53

That is the life of a pastor. Yes, and nobody's ever happy with the balance you strike, but we just hope we, that's why we minister before the face of the

50:01

Lord. But let me just use my church, for example, okay? My concern for my church is not that we are going to become woke, right?

50:11

Just to use the common nomenclature right now, to become woke, right? My concern for our church is that we are going to veer into second -level separationist fundamentalism, right?

50:23

Where, so an easy example, I had - And then right there, you're trying to protect against, rightfully, an overcorrection.

50:30

Yeah, an overcorrection. Absolutely right. You know, I had you come and preach at our church.

50:37

Some people in our church heard some of the things and saw some of the things that you've said about race online.

50:42

They disagreed, and therefore they felt like, because I was willing to partner with you, they had to break their partnership with me, okay?

50:51

In our church, they left our church. Classic second -level separationist fundamentalism.

50:56

Which did surprise me, man. Like, I mean, like, I'm like - And hey, listen, it's not because there's a black guy in the church.

51:02

That's, you know, I don't think that's the issue. I know it's not. But brother, you would be surprised how strong, maybe you wouldn't be, how strong this tendency is.

51:12

I think I would only because I don't pay a lot of attention to that. Yeah. Yeah, yes. Well, and it can also go the opposite direction.

51:19

I'm sure you've encountered this, where maybe some of your black or brown brothers and sisters who are like very heavily and emotionally fiercely invested in this race conversation have wanted you to separate from certain people that they view to be part of the problem.

51:34

And because you don't, they're like, well, I have to separate from you. Yeah, Isaac is compromised. Isaac is compromised.

51:40

And it just goes - He's colonized, baby. Colonized, here you go. Colonized, compromised, Uncle Tom, whatever. Yeah, so that right there is the perfect example of like multi -directional leadership.

51:50

So in my church, right? Knowing our church's weaknesses, strengths, propensities, so on and so forth, our inclinations,

51:57

I always try to address the issue that could be most damaging, right?

52:04

What would you say that is in your context of when you're having race conversations with people who agree with you, right?

52:13

In my circle, in my crowd, Isaac Adams' crowd, what's my multi -directional, I know we agree, but I got to make sure that this doesn't get out of control.

52:22

Yeah, that's a great question, bro. I really appreciate that. And you know, more and more,

52:27

Sean, my circle is my church circle. And what I mean is like, man, I'm the pastor of Iron City Church.

52:34

I'm not the pastor of Sixth Ave. I'm not the pastor of Capitol Hill. I'm not the pastor of Third Prez. I'm the pastor of Iron City Church.

52:41

These are my people. This is my family. And I'm called to shepherd these 271 centers.

52:49

And so Birmingham's a really interesting city. It's a blue city and a red state, right?

52:56

And it's, I've kind of been in those kinds of spaces before, like Chapel Hill, blue city and a red, and well,

53:01

North Carolina kind of goes back and forth. But so it's a very liberal city, and I mean that politically.

53:08

And my church is going to be predominantly leaning that way, at least.

53:15

They're going to share those sympathies. My church is skews really young. Like we are excited when the people over the age of 40, like we're like -

53:23

Young college students in a liberal city. Yeah, UAB, medical town, very studied, you know?

53:29

And so for me, the direction I actually have to guard, I am not worried about a single person being racist in my church.

53:36

Not that we pray as a ministry of the church. So it's just like, if you're here and you don't get kind of what we're doing, it's like, it just calls into question maybe deeper things about persons.

53:47

Like your awareness. Yeah, like just your intellect, generally. But my concern, so I'm preaching through Mark and I'm talking about Jesus feasting with sinners, with tax collectors.

53:58

And the question is, who is the tax collector? Because I think it would have been easy for me to talk about, well, the tax collector, we need to look out for, be it the prostitute or be it whoever.

54:16

And someone pointed out to me, and he was like, you know, I think for our church, the tax collector is the red

54:21

MAGA hat wearing person. Who's actually a Christian, who's been saved by God.

54:27

Jesus died for, Jesus loves, Jesus is actually crazy about him, but he wears that hat.

54:33

And he is sympathetic with that agenda and that candidate.

54:39

So the people in your church would look at him with disdain. Disdain. Yeah. They would be tempted to.

54:45

Yeah. Not universally. They'd be tempted. And so I have to preach that, to preach that, that is like, it is wrong to hate that person.

54:58

And it is wrong to assume that you're a better Christian than that person. And I, man, it'd probably be worth us pausing and me pulling up what

55:07

I said. Y 'all remember what happened a couple of years ago on January 6th in Washington, DC?

55:14

That pathetic attempt to take over the nation's Capitol and how that coup was tied up with the idea of bringing about a

55:21

Christian nation through force and political revolution. Just to be clear, when that revolution was happening,

55:29

I was at the church I worked at before I came to Iron City, which was five blocks from the nation's Capitol.

55:34

The memory is fresh in my mind. Friends, if you're here and you're not a Christian, Jesus wants you to know that what happened on January 6th is not the kingdom of God.

55:46

No, it's quite the opposite. I assure you, heaven doesn't look like January 6th, hell does.

55:53

And if you're here thinking, yeah, that's right. Those red MAGA hat -wearing fools are crazy.

55:59

You tell them, pastor. Don't worry, Jesus has a word for you too. Friends, let's be clear.

56:06

Justice is a good thing. We should seek justice as much as we can in this world.

56:13

But for those of us who are more socially justice -minded should take care to remember that we can't fix this world completely.

56:25

Only God can. We should take care to not love people who don't love

56:31

Jesus, but happen to share our ideals of justice more than the people who love Jesus and the gospel, but who happen to disagree with us on some implications of justice.

56:41

We should take care to not support or endorse ungodly ideologies whose agendas are trying to cannibalize the very just things we care about.

56:51

Friends, if you act as if the way to bring about God's kingdom is to be just, but you forget to love mercy, you forget to walk humbly with God, friend, you are just as bad as the red

57:11

MAGA hat -wearing Republican you may be so tempted to despise. I talked about the kingdom of God and experiencing

57:21

January 6th, being close to the Capitol. I was at Capitol Hill Baptist, so Capitol's a few blocks away, and talking about how

57:30

I don't think the kingdom of God looks like that. It doesn't look like coercion. It doesn't look like force. It doesn't look like trusting in a political entity or putting

57:40

Jesus' name on any of those kinds of initiatives. Yeah, I think that, frankly,

57:48

Sean, I think that's what, that looks more like hell, not like the kingdom of heaven, in what I'll call it. And at that point,

57:54

I know my church is, yes. Yeah, they're frothing at the mouth, amen, brother. Amen, and I said, you know what?

58:04

But those of us who would do that, who would have that reality, I think that we in action should take care that the very initiatives of justice we so deeply care about, that we do not wind up endorsing ungodly ideologies who are trying to cannibalize the very just things we care about for their bigger agenda.

58:22

And we should also take care that we do not hate anyone who is on the other side, especially if they're

58:32

Christians whom Jesus died for, even if they wear that red. And I was like, and if you are, if you are giving into those temptations, you are no better than the red

58:42

MAGA hat wearing. You're just, you're mirroring. You're just mirroring. Yeah, that's all you're doing. It's just, you're just on the other side of it.

58:48

One of the things that I've noticed in this conversation, as I do think, I think there are fault lines and people are lined up on either side and we're gonna feel all really silly about this in heaven.

59:02

Oh, oh, I wanna come back to that. But what I've noticed is that a lot of people on their side, they spend so much time focusing on people on the other side that they begin to act like them.

59:18

It's just the biblical principle of you become what you behold. And so the liberals who spend all the time focusing on Trumpism and all that stuff and the people on the right who spend all their time looking at the woke people, like as someone who is more conservative and I think again, just to use a colloquial term, wokeness is bad, dangerous, so on and so forth.

59:40

It blows my mind when I see conservative people acting just like woke people, just from a different vantage point, right?

59:47

Which I'm so thankful it blows your mind and that's why on my podcast, you shared about the things you would say in that direction to the people.

59:56

It's just like, and it's, I mean, it's this weird, Robert George and Cornel West talk about this in a couple different articles.

01:00:03

Yeah, what a beautiful friendship. I love the friendship. I mean, it's just, and so I met

01:00:09

Cornel West the other day. I was in a restaurant and he comes in and I was like, that's Cornel West. And yeah.

01:00:15

Let's talk about that more over lunch. Yeah. But all

01:00:21

I'll just say right there, man, is we become the very things we hate, like the very, we who started at,

01:00:28

Robert George and Cornel West say, we who started as the most sincere advocates of justice become unjust and it's

01:00:36

Israel becoming Egypt. That's right. You know, it's like y 'all got slaved out of slavery and generations later y 'all were oppressing people.

01:00:44

Book of Judges. That is human nature. Yeah. That's good, brother.

01:00:50

We could say more about that, but I just want to tell you that I'm thankful to know that you're willing to push in all directions.

01:00:56

Bless you, brother. You write, you write as a pastor and talking about race.

01:01:05

Let me ask you two hypotheticals. What is one piece of advice you would give to a pastor who refuses to talk about race?

01:01:15

And what would you, what advice would you give to a pastor who talks too much about race?

01:01:25

Let me give general answers and then I'll nuance them. Okay. Okay. To the pastor who refuses to talk about race,

01:01:33

I'd ask a question. Do you understand yourself to be teaching your people to obey, we can call it the full counsel of God, but all that Christ has commanded?

01:01:43

Yeah. And how does your not talking about this allow you to still do, to still teach all that Christ has commanded while never addressing this area?

01:01:57

That's what I'd say. To the pastor who talks about it too much, I'd say, has this become the thing of first importance in your church that is displaced?

01:02:11

What Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 are the things of first importance. I delivered to you what was of first importance.

01:02:22

And I'm sure they'd have different. So here's the new, here's the kind of, it depends on who I'm talking to. To the guy who never talks about it, and he might be like, so we used to have the pastor who always talked about it.

01:02:34

I'm the new pastor here, and I will not talk about it because it tore the church apart.

01:02:41

And to that guy, I could say, yeah, I could see how not talking about it for a little while is probably actually pastorally wise.

01:02:51

Quick to listen, slow to speak. Quick to listen, slow to speak. You don't have to comment on. The church is real, like you're not gonna have a church if you preach another sermon on it.

01:02:59

And some people are like, well, that's what it's gotta be. That's justice. And I'm like, brother, come on, like play the long game.

01:03:07

You can probably preach that sermon you wanna preach to him. You just might need to wait a few years, but here's what you can do.

01:03:12

You can preach a sermon on the conscience. Okay, so now we have a category for, you don't even mention race, but now it's like, oh, there's a reality where I can see something some one way and a different blood -bought

01:03:27

Christian can see it a different way, and he could still be a Christian. And now maybe that actually gets at the heart of what that church is clamoring over.

01:03:35

So I could see some wisdom in that. And to the pastor who's like, I'm talking about it all the time, he's like, listen,

01:03:43

I grew up in a racist family and in a racist church. And I saw some of the most horrific things.

01:03:49

And this is just such a burden of mine. And I'm like, that I understand. That's what

01:03:55

I'm saying. I'm just like, you see what I'm doing? I'm trying to pastor these pastors. Why are you doing that? But there are,

01:04:01

I mean, I think there are probably just kind of standard garden variety. Dude, you're being a blockhead. You're scared.

01:04:07

And you're scared of a different thing. You're scared that God really won't take vengeance. You're scared that we're all gonna become closet -wearing, or not closet,

01:04:18

I was saying that we're all closet -racist and we'll all become hood -wearing. Hell of a day. Yeah, hood -wearing.

01:04:25

Hood -wearing, you know, like it's just like, or like we're all, you know, supporting this white supremacist institution or society or whatever.

01:04:32

And I'm like, brother, man, people do not change by force. They don't change, they change by grace.

01:04:40

And so you can preach that law, but like, brother, that's just, there's a more excellent way.

01:04:48

Anyway. That's good, man. Long answer. No, it's fine. It's shorter. We have so much to talk about.

01:04:57

What would you say - Mr. Freeman would say we should stop talking about it. Stop it. I can't tell you how often, every time a race thing happens, that thing pops up on a timeline, you know?

01:05:08

It's funny, I don't even need to go look it up. Oh yeah. What would you say, you know what, next time I should have had it like pulled up,

01:05:14

I could have shown you the actual clip. Oh, there we go. We're learning. What would you say to a Christian, white or otherwise?

01:05:21

And those are the only two categories, who says regarding a particular racial tragedy, right?

01:05:30

We won't call it a murder or a killing. At the end of the day, someone's dead. People are hurting.

01:05:36

Image bearer's dead. People are hurting. We're arguing. It's a tragedy no matter what, okay? To someone who says, brother,

01:05:43

Isaac, I love you, but what you perceive to be a racial tragedy, I believe to be something else that essentially has nothing to do with race.

01:05:52

So a guy gets shot by a cop. The cop is white, he's black, but he thinks it's just a standard use of force kind of a thing, right?

01:06:00

Just trying to fill this in a little bit. And I think these conversations are inflaming hostilities that should be put out.

01:06:06

Now we already kind of addressed that latter part. So let's focus on the first part, right? In your church, let's say tomorrow, may it not be, but let's say in Birmingham, black guy gets killed by a white cop and it is not at all clear what has happened, right?

01:06:23

I mean, in some sense it's clear someone's dead, right? But it's not at all clear if it's been an injustice or what.

01:06:31

Nevertheless, in your church, there are gonna be people who react from both sides, right? The cop is innocent, back the blue, right?

01:06:39

And then you have other people in your church or another dead black man. And of course, you white guys aren't whatever, right?

01:06:46

In that moment, what's the first, what do you think? How am I gonna shepherd my people through this?

01:06:55

I know you're not asking this in some sense, but because you were about to ask, what's the first thing maybe I'm saying or doing, honestly,

01:07:01

Sean, the first thing I want to do is pray. And people will be like, of course, that's a

01:07:06

Christian answer. What are you really gonna, right? No, I'm really going to pray.

01:07:12

So our church had an inaugural prayer service last night. I was so encouraged. I was so nervous about it.

01:07:17

Not because I'm nervous to pray, but I'm a new pastor. I'm trying to introduce something new. And it's like, is this gonna suck?

01:07:23

Like, is this gonna, and it was so, so I preached 2 Corinthians 1 11, just this little, yeah, short sermon on it.

01:07:35

And I said, you know, prayer, this is the first thing Paul asked for in this book. And he goes through all his hard stuff.

01:07:43

And he says, you know, God delivered us and we have set our hope on him that he will deliver us again.

01:07:49

And it's like, man, this is incredible. Paul has this redemptive view of his suffering. God used that to make us rely on him. And the first thing he says next is, you also must help us by prayer.

01:08:00

And I love that because he saw it as not a last resort, but the first resort, the most necessary resort, the most powerful resort.

01:08:10

And he does it constantly. And he's like, guys, please pray for me. I need it. And he's honest in flipping.

01:08:17

He's like, yo, y 'all revived your concern for me. I'm thankful. But like, and you sent some stuff that's helpful.

01:08:22

Even there, he's like, hey, just so you know, I'm praying for you. That's right. I'm in chains.

01:08:27

I can't be there with you, but you better believe it. I'm praying for you. But let's get to the meat of your question. Hey, that's a good qualifier.

01:08:35

And it's one of my staff pastor says, praying is not the same thing as doing nothing.

01:08:41

And so it's probably the most important thing. The most, the most.

01:08:47

But we've done the most important thing. That doesn't mean there aren't more things to do, more things to think through. So, you know what's so interesting about, again,

01:08:54

I think this gets about the perspective of, so, okay, white guy kills this black guy, cop, black image, we're both made in the image of God.

01:09:05

Both need grace, mercy, yeah. I think one perspective sees that as simply an isolated event.

01:09:14

This one thing happened between this one individual and this one individual. I think

01:09:19

I am going to see that more as that, this happened between these two individuals in this city, in this state, where that kind of stuff was happening historically.

01:09:36

It was racially motivated. And so I guess what I'm saying, Sean, is, and this gets to your kind of velocity question, is like, because I'm aware of that, and I wanna share a brief anecdote in light of this, but because I'm aware of that,

01:09:55

I'm not saying that that guy harbored racial animus in his heart. And I think a lot of people do assume that, like, oh, it was necessarily racially motivated.

01:10:05

But therefore, if it's not, the only dynamics are the skin color.

01:10:13

Like, if it were a white guy, it wouldn't be a racial thing. And I'm like, I get that, but those are the dynamics.

01:10:20

And historically, like, it comes up. It's just something you have to deal with, Pastor. I can't just be like, well, just ignore all the racial dynamics.

01:10:28

Even in, like, let's just take it out of the hypothetical and go to the Tyree Nichols tragedy, where you had black cops.

01:10:35

I think this was Memphis. Mm -hmm, yeah. And black - They beat him to death, basically, yeah. And so, like, I had to ask the question, is this still racially involved?

01:10:43

And I think my answer, or at least where I was landing was, well,

01:10:48

I do think that's a legitimate question even there. How could it be? We could talk about that on the side.

01:10:54

But let me just give you this anecdote real quick. I think it's related. Maybe it's not. When I first got the call, my mom, who passed away a year ago, when

01:11:09

I first got the call to, and my mom is super godly. When I first got the call to Birmingham, or learned about Iron City, I went to my mom.

01:11:20

I said, mom, I found a church. She was like, that's great. That's wonderful. And I said, yeah, it's in Birmingham.

01:11:30

And my mom is super meek. Meek, meek, meek, meek, meek. Not a huge, not a large personality.

01:11:37

And bro, she recoiled in horror. She said, oh, Isaac. And she said,

01:11:44

I told the Lord, I would never step foot in that city after what they did to those four little girls. 16th

01:11:50

Street bombing, racially motivated, obviously. And so I bring that up,

01:11:56

Sean, to say, and my mom was, when that happened, my mom was those girls' age. She was old enough to be one of those little girls.

01:12:04

And so I bring that up to say, one, it's not ancient history, but beyond that, if that hypothetical shooting you just described between white cop and black man happens, my mom is not just thinking about these two individuals.

01:12:22

She's thinking about 16th Street. She's thinking about her son in this city, in this house. She's thinking about lots of things that this necessarily stirs up and evokes.

01:12:37

And I think it's at least insensitive, if not something worse, to say, stop thinking about those other things.

01:12:45

Not even insensitive, just impractical. Like that's not, in my experience of being a human, that's not how humans work.

01:12:54

To me, it's like telling someone who's been abused. Abuse is so sensitive,

01:13:01

I almost feared it. It's like telling someone who, this terrible thing has happened to them, and something that would bring up that terrible thing in their mind happens between these two people over here that it had nothing to do with them.

01:13:16

And me being like, don't think about that. Well, you're the problem for thinking about that.

01:13:22

If, when I'm like, actually, this is the problem, and I also don't appreciate necessarily in how people might approach that person, be like, stop seeing it that way, is because it at least implies that you're saying it,

01:13:39

I think what that person is trying to say is we don't know it was that, or we don't know if it's related to these other things.

01:13:45

But what it can easily sound like is it's not related to these other things, which presumes that you know it's not related.

01:13:51

You've got to prove that as well. Like, how do you, so I say all that to say, Sean, like, that's what

01:14:00

I would say is like, to the person who's like, you're making it a race thing. I was like, I did not make it a race thing.

01:14:08

You live in a racially charged world. People in the past made it a race thing, and we are their children, like it or not.

01:14:17

And so, I mean, just think of like two families who had a beef. The Hatfields and the McCoys.

01:14:23

The Hatfields and the McCoys, and Tiny Tim Hatfield is playing with Tiny Terry Hatfield, and they get in a fight, and it's just between these two boys.

01:14:36

That's all that's happening. But the brother says, the Hatfields always do this. Is he crazy for saying that or thinking that?

01:14:46

Is he right? Kind of, and so that's what we see on a much larger scale.

01:14:55

And I think if we could have more conversation like this, like tell me why you see it that way. Okay, that is a good point.

01:15:02

I'm a little fearful though, that you're just writing the narrative off simply in 280 characters, as it is necessarily only racially motivated, only fruit of a racist society.

01:15:15

And it's like, man, violence and all these things, like, man, we live in a society where UFC is promoted, like where we watch people beat each other for sport.

01:15:24

Human cockfighting. So you're exactly right. It's just like, it's not monocausal. There are so many things converging into what's happening.

01:15:31

The racial one gets so specifically charged, but that's because of the such specific way that has controlled so much of American interactions and societies historically.

01:15:46

Okay, well, let me shift the angle on this a little bit. You pastor me right now, okay?

01:15:52

Okay. By the way - Here we go. As a sheep, I bite. But you shepherd me, okay?

01:16:01

So I had a conversation with a brother, young pastor, very young.

01:16:07

Younger than both of us, okay? Lived in the North his whole life. Lived in - How old are you?

01:16:12

36. 36, yeah. Lived a fairly sheltered lifestyle. Never really been exposed to much, right?

01:16:22

But black brother. And I invited him to come down to Alabama and legitimately he says,

01:16:31

I wouldn't even drive through that state, right? My first reaction is, are you serious?

01:16:40

Are you kidding me? Because he's not your mom, right? Here's why I think this is maybe another helpful, let's just turn it 10 more degrees or 20 more degrees this way, right?

01:16:48

Like your mom's sentiment is much more reasonable, right? This guy hasn't,

01:16:56

I mean, he's experienced probably some minor racism, maybe some major racism, but it's just very, very different.

01:17:03

And he has in his mind built up this myth about what the

01:17:08

South is today. When in reality, like the Tiki Torch March, right?

01:17:15

For white supremacy, that happened, I won't tell you the city, but it happened - Oh, I know brother. Okay. I was married in the city back then.

01:17:23

So it happened. No, sorry, I mean, I won't tell you the guy. Oh yeah. But it happened like 10 miles away from you.

01:17:29

Whereas like that won't happen in Birmingham. That's not gonna happen in Decatur or Huntsville, Alabama.

01:17:35

So in this book, when people feel and think certain ways, you shepherded me through my thought process.

01:17:41

They're like, are you kidding me? Come on, man, this is ridiculous. Yeah, I hear you. And you might not be wrong.

01:17:49

I think what I would ask you some, but like, here's what I asked Sean is like, how well do you know this guy?

01:17:56

Because he might have my mom who has spoken into his life with a legitimate fear and he's kind of conjured it up, right?

01:18:04

And maybe to even be more honest in the car, he's like, I wasn't that guy. I wasn't like,

01:18:09

I won't go because here I am and I live here. And like Birmingham, you're exactly, Birmingham is 70 % black. Like, you just gotta understand like, it's not like, there are like tons of, anyway.

01:18:20

But I feel like, but I think what he fears is like, he's just thinking the whole state is a sundown town.

01:18:26

Like, if you're not out of here by sundown. And those are real. And those are real. Well, not anymore, but they used to be.

01:18:32

Yeah, I'd say, yeah, I'd say arguably, but yes. By and large. By and large, to the degree we're talking about, not real.

01:18:38

And so, but he's thinking that. And I think that's just where you, this happens all the time as a pastor.

01:18:45

You could say, dude, you're ridiculous. You're an idiot. Sure, I wouldn't want to say that. And you wouldn't say that.

01:18:50

But you just have to tease people about like, why do you think that? So more information, like what

01:18:58

I would encourage you to do is give him more information. Be like, bro, tell me why you think that. And man, like, I would even say,

01:19:04

Sean, you can say like, man, it grieves me that that has to even enter your mind.

01:19:11

Like, I'm grieved by that. I really, man, like, I really think you'll be just fine for these very clear reasons.

01:19:21

And I think, man, I would probably leave, I would probably encourage you to leave it there. In other words, I would say, don't even address, like, and bro, like, just to encourage you, like,

01:19:28

I think you're writing off a whole part of the country that unfairly, like, you could go that rebuke route, but is it worth it in that moment?

01:19:37

Okay, well, let's forget about rebuke. Is there a sense in which, in that context, it might be useful for me to say, and this is totally off the top, don't judge me too harshly, right?

01:19:46

But like, hey, there's, ignorance is too strong of a word and it would be too biting in that context, right?

01:19:54

But to just try to like inform him, like, hey, you have a vision of something that is not accurate.

01:20:00

And to try to give him a more accurate picture in that moment. Because I think that's from the conservative side or the threes, right?

01:20:11

They feel like any time this conversation comes up and I try to bring up like facts, right?

01:20:19

Not weaponized facts. But just facts. Yeah, just like, hey, you know, actually the amount of black people killed by, unarmed black people killed by police officers in the last, you think it's thousands?

01:20:31

Well, guess what? It's less than 20, right? To any time you do that, it's completely like, not only invalidated, but seen as hostile, right?

01:20:40

So is there a place to bring up facts in a helpful non -combative way in these kinds of conversations?

01:20:49

Yes, but where that place, I fear that the threes think that place is a lot earlier than it really is. Kind of like Job's friends, right?

01:20:56

Yeah, that's right. And the straight answer to your question is like, with this guy,

01:21:01

I'd say yes, but not in that conversation. And I understood you to be asking, is there a place for me in that first conversation to be like, and like, maybe if y 'all are best friends and you'd be like, bro, you're my man, 100 grand, you know that.

01:21:16

Bro, you sound dumb. There is an ignorance here and I wanna address it for you because a rebuke goes deep into a heart of a man of understanding, right?

01:21:27

Like you should receive this. But I would still say, Sean, is like, you do need to take into fact, it's like,

01:21:34

I'm a white guy saying this to a black guy. Like, there's just, and like, what I've thought of was

01:21:40

Proverbs 16, 21 says, the wise of heart is called discerning and sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness.

01:21:54

I read that the other day. I don't know, it's like, you know, those verses you're like, I don't feel like I've ever read this. Like that is not in talking about,

01:22:01

I hope the spirit of that is in talking about race, but I was like, that should be chapter one. And so like, all

01:22:07

I'm saying is like, you do have to take into consideration, like, is this fact gonna taste sweet to this person?

01:22:17

It's okay if it doesn't, but just know they won't swallow it as easily. And so you can say that thing, but I wouldn't, not in that,

01:22:25

I would rather be like, bro, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna fly you down here. You don't have to drive.

01:22:31

I'm gonna fly you down here. I'll pick you up from the airport. You'll be with me the whole time. Let him just see, okay, this is kind of what

01:22:39

I was thinking. It's kind of ridiculous. Like, this is just not the KKK headquarters that I thought it was.

01:22:48

And you know, and all of that is much more expensive and longer and blah, blah, blah. And maybe you never wanted him to come down here in the first place, but love is expensive and slow and longer.

01:22:59

And so I would just be like, bro, like, come on. And then if he's still like, man, how do you live in this racist part of the country?

01:23:04

I'd be like, number one, homie, Jesus is the captain. And if he wanted me to come down here, he calls the shots.

01:23:10

Jonah has to go to Nineveh, right? And that's the beauty of what we see in Jesus and Mark is

01:23:15

Jesus goes to the side of the Sea of Galilee. That's the Gentile side, the side of the Gerasenes. And it's his idea.

01:23:20

He's like, let's go to the other side. Mark four, I was just like, let's go to the other side. So simple.

01:23:25

Jonah's like, let's get away. But anyway, but because -

01:23:31

So there is a place for fact communication, but just do so with wise timing, right?

01:23:36

Wise timing, and I would say sweetness. And I do, I think sweetness lacks on the threes and the fours.

01:23:46

Yeah. And it lacks on the ones and twos, let me be clear. But because the threes and the fours more naturally are kind of friends, yeah, there is something missing there.

01:23:59

And I don't know what it is. I don't know why it is. I don't know how it is, but it gets exactly to what you were talking about with Luther and Calvin.

01:24:06

Yeah. Like, I'm ashamed of it. Yeah. Because there's just, there's a brutality there that is just thinks force and truth is enough without love.

01:24:18

And Paul's like, homie, if we don't got love, we don't got anything and we're not anything anyway. Amen, brother.

01:24:24

Preach. What do we need to agree on regarding matters of race in order to have unity with one another in the local church?

01:24:36

Now, you can take that any way you want as elders. That's a great question. We have to agree it's a sin.

01:24:44

Have to. Racism is a sin. Yeah. Beyond that, you know, and I'm assuming it's so funny, you and I, we share so many assumptions.

01:24:58

And even in this, like, I'm assuming unity is already accomplished by Christ at the cross. It already exists.

01:25:03

But like, I know what you mean. Like to have, you know, what does someone have to agree on to become a member of Iron City Church?

01:25:10

Or even, I mean, I think one of the things that we've seen in the last 10 years is an exodus of people of color from predominantly white churches.

01:25:20

And we're not going to go into all that today. There is no time. There is not. But it's largely because people have felt like we do not have sufficient agreement on these things in order to have unity in the local church.

01:25:33

Now, I appreciated your section in your book where you said essentially like, hey, you're free in Christ to like, go find another church.

01:25:42

Like, praise God, you live in the United States. If you can find another gospel preaching, Bible believing church in your city where your conscience isn't bound by these things, great, do that.

01:25:51

But, you know, let's pretend that we're in force. They're asking these questions. Yeah, let's pretend that we're in Corinth, you know, or in Philippi.

01:25:57

There's only one church. Paul says like, hey guys, I need you to be of one mind, okay?

01:26:03

You know what I'm saying? Like, you gotta figure this out. Yeah. And the spirit will help you, but you gotta do this, right?

01:26:09

So what is that base? And this, you don't want to just ask what's the bare minimum we want to, but like, what is the base level agreement that we need to have in order to do life together and perhaps disagree on some of the finer points?

01:26:25

My first thought is, yes, exactly what you said. We have to agree that racism is a sin, right?

01:26:31

A sin, an excommunicable sin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think beyond that,

01:26:38

I think there are probably, it's really tough because the answer will be different for different people.

01:26:45

But I'm actually thinking through this afresh in my own life, not in my church, but in a different scenario. Of partnerships with folks.

01:26:55

So it's a bit outside the church. Like, I think in a church, you have to, you certainly have to agree that's a sin.

01:27:01

I think you have to be on, I think there's some practical things you have to kind of implicitly agree on that I'm not gonna put in the statement of faith.

01:27:08

Right. But in our membership class, here's a very practical, we, there's a little section of like, you need to know this before joining the church.

01:27:14

So something we say a lot at Iron City is clarity is kindness. Yeah. Kindness for everybody. Yeah. And so we say, hey, we talk about matters of racial injustice here at this church.

01:27:27

You should know that before joining. Now, we're not saying you have to agree with us on everything to be a member.

01:27:36

And you can even, you can disagree on some things, but if you're, if what's gonna be a problem for you is not simply how

01:27:44

I said something, but that I said anything, this is gonna be a hard church for you.

01:27:50

Right, yeah. And you should think through that. Now, I wanna be really careful with that, Sean, because I don't wanna create a cult of personality of Isaac Adams.

01:27:57

I want some people who disagree. I want Sean's in my church. Sure, yeah. I need

01:28:02

Sean's in my church. I need that. I say that in our church as well. Okay, so. I need the twos. I need the twos in me.

01:28:09

It's like, even the one, like, I think the most, it's hard because ones and fours, it's like to be in those camps, by definition, you have to.

01:28:17

And they're prone to fight. Right, right, right. And I don't really need that in the church. I really don't.

01:28:22

I feel that. So, but I guess what I'm saying is, that's not a really a doctrinal position, more of it's a how we live position.

01:28:30

Yeah, do you agree? It's kind of like a church covenant thing on those. Right, like, do you agree that it's okay to talk about?

01:28:36

Yeah, will we bear with one another in the midst of disagreements? Will you love me through that? Will you respect my conscience?

01:28:42

Right, exactly. Like, can, those are the kind of, like, agreements we need to have on how we're going to do life together, if we're going to do life together.

01:28:52

And so I think that's my kind of baseline. It's probably less on, like, I think you have to be able to say, you know,

01:28:59

I, you know, Sean, like, do you have to agree that systemic racism ever existed to be a member of our church?

01:29:09

Yeah. I don't think so. But would someone who has that idea, hear what

01:29:14

I just said about racial injustice and be like, yeah, I'm still good? Yeah. Maybe, okay. But I think there's a level of reality, like, you even said it earlier of, like, we understand this happened historically.

01:29:26

And I think there is, like, if someone says it never happened historically and you're wrong for thinking it, you're just, that's a four and a one.

01:29:34

That's a seven, I don't know what the other is. Yeah, that's just like eight, like, or 25. Like, it's just like, at that point, you're not even engaging with any kind of intellectual honesty or integrity.

01:29:46

So there's nothing in the books that would prevent them from joining, but just practically. Just practically. One month of Sunday services, they'd be like, ah.

01:29:53

And like, man, I don't think at ICC, like, you know, I use it in sermon illustrations and stuff. We talk about like, but I think people would come to ICC and be surprised how little they hear that from me.

01:30:04

Yeah, I think the inverse is also true regarding us and wokeness and stuff like that.

01:30:11

I think people come here and expect us to be sort of like rampaging about things like that. Brother, I'm just going to preach what's in the text this week.

01:30:18

Hey, man. And if there's a valid application to make, I'm going to make it. But it's going to be in the direction that probably actually steps on your toes because you pay me to step on your toes.

01:30:26

That's exactly right. And so, yeah. Isaac, we are running out of time and I have a lot of rapid fire questions

01:30:31

I want to ask you. Do your best to resist the urge to be a preacher, okay? Just try to give me the rapid fire answers.

01:30:41

Do you subscribe to CRT? I can't answer that if I don't know what you mean by it.

01:30:47

Okay. That is itself a good answer because very often people use those terms on the right and the left and they have no idea what they're talking about.

01:30:55

We'd have to have a more nuanced conversation. Can't answer it. We need more room for nuance. I'm going to start a podcast that says

01:31:01

Rumor. Roomier. Roomier for nuance. What, you wrote a book about talking about race.

01:31:11

Would you say that you are good at talking about race? By God's grace, better than average.

01:31:19

Okay. Is the gospel the answer to racism? What do you mean?

01:31:33

It depends on what you mean by racism. Okay. That's my answer. All right. If we only had the

01:31:41

Bible and nothing else, no sociology textbooks, no history books, no anything else, we just had the reality of the sin of racism, ethnic partiality and other stuff that goes along with it.

01:31:54

But we only had the Bible. Would that be sufficient to put racism to death?

01:32:00

Yes. Yes. Amen. Just like, I mean, Paul's listeners didn't even have all of what we have.

01:32:07

No, not at all. And he's like, I'm writing to you. And anyway, I'm being a preacher. Sorry. No, it's all good. Is nine

01:32:13

Marks woke? Ask Jonathan Lehman. I did. I did a podcast with him. I said no, but it wasn't good enough.

01:32:20

He said no. I said no. It still wasn't good enough. No, I don't think so. Yeah. Like I said, man,

01:32:26

I got my hands hard and mindful with Iron City and United Brotherhood. I love those brothers.

01:32:31

And my answer would be a clear and profound no. What should someone do if they're discouraged in their evangelism?

01:32:38

This is where I say, buy my book. Yes. Step number one, buy the book. Yes. Realize that you're a normal Christian and there's hope for you.

01:32:46

You say this book is for those who want to share the gospel message, but for whatever reason, struggle to do so faithfully.

01:32:55

I would say that would be the vast majority of Christians. There are some people who have the gift of evangelism and even they struggle, right?

01:33:02

And I put you in that camp, bro. Oh, praise God. Thanks brother. Perhaps you get awkward or silent when an opportunity to share the gospel emerges, or you feel like you don't live a good enough life to tell people about a good

01:33:13

God. Maybe you don't want to lose a job or friendships, but following Christ means loving those who don't follow

01:33:20

Jesus. And that love includes sharing the gospel. What are some reasons you may not be sharing the gospel?

01:33:26

Do you expect the church staff to do it or perhaps just the extroverts in the church? Are you too busy with your plans to think about someone else's eternal state?

01:33:35

Are you a Christian in name, but a universalist in practice? That was deep. Acting as if God will simply save everyone in the end anyways.

01:33:43

Are you ashamed of God's justice and goodness and judging and condemning sinners? If any of these reasons describe you and your lack of evangelism,

01:33:51

I'd like to gently say two things. First, you need to repent. Second, there's hope for you.

01:33:58

If you're a discouraged evangelist, or if you feel like one, this book is for you. The good news for bad evangelists is that the same gospel we want to preach to others is the same gospel that gives us the power to obey

01:34:09

Christ's command to share the gospel with others. I read that whole section to my congregation on a

01:34:15

Sunday morning, and I was like, this is everyone in this room. I have five copies in the back.

01:34:21

Go get one, read it today, and pray and ask the Lord to help make you a better evangelist. So brother, I just wanted to commend you again for how useful this is.

01:34:29

Have you heard any good feedback, response from this book? Yeah, man, I think, and it's for,

01:34:37

I mean, maybe to just, I know we're running out of time. No, it's okay. I hope even that picture, and there's another book

01:34:45

I have on, you know, just spiritual disciplines. I hope in some sense that's kind of representative of my heart and ministry of like,

01:34:53

I wrote this and that. Right, right. And this is not my life or my identity.

01:35:02

It's important, but it's not your everything. But Sean, you're an author. I don't know if you're like me. I look at my books, I'm like, man,

01:35:08

I wrote that. Like, I don't even know if I'd have the energy to do that again. Could I do it again? Could I do it again?

01:35:14

Would I do it again? But I say all that to say, man, like, I'm relieved that there's a whole ministry that that book has that, you know, some people might leave your church when

01:35:25

I come in the name of this, even if they project this onto me unfairly. But man, like, praise

01:35:32

God, because that's what I want. I want the thing of first importance to go out and the rest will be about in heaven.

01:35:40

And this is, I want to come back to what you said. Yeah, yeah, you did it, man. Good for you for remembering. You know, Mark, so.

01:35:48

Mike Deavers? Mike Deavers, that's right. We were talking about, it was not anything,

01:35:54

I think it was the like historic disagreement between Baptist and Presbyterian centuries old on baptism.

01:36:01

You know, Mark, he said something like, you know, in heaven, we'll see who's right. And, you know, we're all like, yeah, and amen.

01:36:09

But he said something that stuck with me. He said, if we even care then. And I wrote a whole article about this because John Newton was so clear about the reality of heaven and how in heaven, your worst enemy, who's a

01:36:24

Christian, the one to the four, the four to the one, he will be dearer to you than your best friend on earth right now.

01:36:33

Who's not a Christian. Who's not a Christian or who even is a Christian, like they will be dear, like in this sense, like if you were my best friend, even though you're a

01:36:41

Christian, we're still in the flesh, we see dimly, but I'm not trying to get into logic of all of it.

01:36:47

All I'm just saying is like, you will love that person in ways you never thought imaginable.

01:36:52

James White and Thabiti Anyabwile, when they're in heaven, it's gonna be nothing.

01:36:58

It'll be a beautiful thing. And so I just say all that to say, man, like that controls how

01:37:08

I try to have the conversation. That's huge brother. This can't be every, it's not, it's not, this isn't all of me.

01:37:16

It's not all of you and heaven, Christ will be all in all.

01:37:24

And I've read that somewhere. Yeah, it's just like, we won't, there will be so many things that I was right about and so many things

01:37:32

I was wrong about. And, but none of that, he will be there and see him face to face.

01:37:39

This will be the one I've waited for. This will be the one my soul loves. This will be him.

01:37:45

And no longer am I just encountering him in his word. I am encountering him physically.

01:37:51

I am encountering him in every aspect of my being, emotionally, spiritually. And if like, no one's going to come on over and be like, man, remember what you said on page six and talking about race.

01:38:07

Like, what do you think about it now? You were wrong about that, idiot. It will just be like the restoration, like we can't imagine it.

01:38:16

To imagine it is to belittle it because we can't, the highest thought of it is too low. And so man, like,

01:38:23

I'm just like, I care about the end. I want to seek as much temporal justice as I can because I'm a

01:38:30

Christian. And yet man, when the full thing happens, it won't just be justice that happens.

01:38:35

It will be restoration, which is the goal of justice. Full restoration that the relationship would be restored.

01:38:42

That's what justice is there for ultimately. And so that's going to be a beautiful day, man.

01:38:50

Amen, brother. A couple more rapid fire questions. Sorry, sorry. No, it's fine, brother. I'm not preaching this

01:38:56

Sunday. So, you know, you got to get it out somehow. No book has ever finished. You just got to turn it in.

01:39:03

Any one thing you wish you would have added or looking back, you wish you could change. I think

01:39:09

I would have given more. I don't know if you felt this in your, well, it was rapid fire question.

01:39:15

I would have given more to Anna Beth, I believe is her name.

01:39:23

It's been a little while since I read that. I would have given more to her.

01:39:31

And she is the woke character in the book. Interesting. Which is interesting. Yeah. Probably shows more of who

01:39:38

I was writing this toward, but yeah. Okay. Some lighthearted affair.

01:39:44

Hey. We made it through the waters. I think so, brother. Hey, cheers.

01:39:50

Cheers. Favorite candy. Oh, right now

01:39:56

I'm crushing some Cadbury eggs, but I, yeah, yeah. I judge you for that. Cadbury eggs?

01:40:01

I judge you, bro. They're so good. I judge you so hard for that. No, I mean, my favorite sweet thing is an

01:40:07

Oreo milkshake. Oh, okay. All right, all right. I'm sorry, I don't know. I don't like, Oreos aren't candy.

01:40:12

Are you talking like McDonald's? Because you can't ever get a milkshake at McDonald's. Like homemade.

01:40:18

I mean, my vanilla ice cream and my Oreos and my milk. Yeah, I'm just. You're blowing my mind,

01:40:24

Isaac Adams. I would never make a milkshake at home. I'm thinking five guys is the only way. They ground the

01:40:29

Oreos too fine. You got to have the chunks. Dang, okay. Least favorite candy. And this says a lot about your character, man.

01:40:39

This might cause more of a rift than any question regarding race. Oh man, licorice.

01:40:47

Black or regular? And I did. Oh, black licorice. Black licorice is terrible.

01:40:53

You don't like regular licorice, red vines? No. All right. You're not preaching this week.

01:41:00

What book are you preaching right now? Mark. What's been the best thing about it? Oh, learning more about the kingdom of God.

01:41:07

Amen. How can we pray for you? I want more and more to believe the things that I just preached about longing for Jesus and not just seeing him as seeing,

01:41:27

I mean, this would be that my vision is like seeing him for what he is and who he is. And I can theologize and make a lot of things abstract.

01:41:35

Yeah. And. It's the, I believe, but help my unbelief prayer. Yeah. Make it realer.

01:41:42

Yeah, make that realer. You can pray for my pastor in Iron City Church, man. And you can pray, man, like pray

01:41:47

I'll be a man of integrity leading that congregation. Amen, brother. What are you reading right now?

01:41:57

What am I reading right now? I mean, in one sense, I mean, there's stuff pastorally.

01:42:03

I'm like working through Jonathan Lehman's understanding the congregation's authority.

01:42:11

For fun, I'm not reading much and I need to change that. Okay. Yeah, I just, I have not had much time to be reading.

01:42:17

Do you do audio books? No, I just don't know that I can get into them. I hear you.

01:42:22

Do you do podcasts? Not as much as you would think a podcaster does. What's one podcast that's not your own that you would recommend or that you enjoy?

01:42:33

You don't have to recommend it. Yeah, I'm trying to think. NPR's Horticulture Hour. No, I mean, nothing immediate.

01:42:41

I mean, I really don't spend much time listening to podcasts but I'm trying to think, but I wanted to jump. I love

01:42:47

Ray Orland and I've wanted to listen to You're Not Crazy. Okay, so Ray Orland's, the audio version of his

01:42:54

The Death of Porn. I read that recently. So the book was amazing, but to have him read it, every chapter,

01:43:03

I was like, I'm never going to even be, I was just like, ah. I mean, I love, I mean, that's, it's more,

01:43:10

I mean, it's funny when I talk about books, I'm not reading, I'm like, that's just like, I get to the end of the year and I have a little stack of stuff

01:43:15

I've read, but it's more people I'm listening to. I don't really care if Ray's on this show or my show or whatever.

01:43:21

I just want to hear what Ray's saying. And I've been, and Ray was shaped by Francis Schaeffer. So I've been reading some

01:43:27

Francis Schaeffer stuff. Reading downstream or upstream. What's your favorite book, obviously, outside of scripture?

01:43:36

Pilgrim's Progress. Do you reread it often? Not as much as one who says it's their favorite book.

01:43:44

Are you reading, like, The Little Pilgrim's Progress with your kids? We've read it. It got a little too scary, but they're really good.

01:43:51

But it got a little, so right now we're doing Marty Machowski's Theology. Yeah, oh, that's fantastic.

01:43:56

Our kids loved it. So we're doing that. And then we're going to do, we've actually started

01:44:01

Chronicles of Narnia. Kevin DeYoung's The Biggest Story. Love, all that stuff.

01:44:07

I give that, I give that to the parents in our church. Like, I just give them a coffee. Because I'm just like, I want you to read this.

01:44:15

Oh, well, and it's so edifying. I gave a copy away last night at our prayer meeting. And he also, now there's that, like, biggest

01:44:21

Bible. That's the one I was talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're both good. They're both great. But the biggest Bible, I've also given away.

01:44:28

And a sister took it who was really struggling. And she even admitted that. And she was like, you know, honestly,

01:44:34

I was struggling to get in the Word. And I figured I could at least read this. And she was like, this has been so helpful for me spiritually.

01:44:40

So bless the Lord. Last question. Do you have any hidden talents?

01:44:47

Oh, man. I'm a better drawer than. Yeah? Like, I used to be drawing

01:44:54

Dragon Ball Z characters all the time. Hidden talents.

01:45:01

I mean, I think the talent would be poetry writing, not poet. Yeah, which is not so hidden.

01:45:06

Yeah, that's not so hidden. Other hidden talents.

01:45:14

No, I mean, probably drawing. All right, be on the lookout for a new book of drawings.

01:45:23

My picture book coming out. Well, brother, this has been really useful. I pray, and we're gonna pray.

01:45:30

I'll close this out with prayer now. But I just pray that anyone who's watching this or listening to it will do so with a very charitable spirit, whether they're listening from a perspective that's more in agreement with you or more in agreement with me.

01:45:43

Not even that we really parsed out many of our differences, but you can sort of intuit. I think the angle thing is very helpful.

01:45:50

Why is that question your driving question or your framing question? And what burdens does that represent?

01:45:57

And why are these my framing things? I think that's where. You know, Piper, he talks about the gospel like a jewel with many facets, right?

01:46:04

And he says, when you're talking to some people, you hold the jewel up and you rotate it around so that you can see this facet and when you're talking to different people, never compromising the gospel message, but just it's a question of emphasis.

01:46:15

But it's also a question of perspective and vantage point. And that might even be a helpful illustration here, like holding up the raised question.

01:46:23

It's just like, it's rotated one way for you and another way for others. And I think we act as if our vantage point is the only and is the best always.

01:46:34

So if you don't have this vantage point, dude up in New York who thinks, you know, Alabama is just a racist land and territory that you're too pure to enter into, you're therefore wrong.

01:46:45

And it's like, well, he's got a vantage point too. One is probably more right than the other, but how can we get to agreement where you can actually see him?

01:46:54

That's the goal, right? It's like to spend time together. So let's not break the relationship over this, that kind of dumb and ignorant comment.

01:47:03

But how many times have you seen that, Sean? It's like the whole horror, sorry, sermon three, here we go, sermon 85.

01:47:11

The whole horror of broken conversation about race is not really, I am sad for any kind of racial injustice that would be perpetuated and any wounds people might feel.

01:47:23

It's that people in communities fall apart. And whenever people in community fall apart, there's injustice and sadness and brokenness to deal with.

01:47:34

But that's why in the gospel, what we see is not man just reconciled to God, but man reconciled to man.

01:47:39

That's right. Well, brother, let me pray. Thank you so much for being here. Lord Jesus, we come before you humbled by the grace to be able to speak the truth to one another in love, not just focusing on facts, but also with a posture of humility, recognizing that you are the only one who has a perfect perspective of that which is true.

01:48:02

Lord, we pray that you, by your spirit, would lead us into all truth, more and more truth, even though we're never gonna get it all while we're here in the body, in this body of death.

01:48:14

We pray that you will clarify our vision through the study of your word and through more fruitful conversations just like this.

01:48:22

Though we are imperfect, we do pray that other brothers and sisters in Christ would follow our example in the way that we have sought to have this difficult conversation.

01:48:34

Lord, we pray that you'll bless Isaac Adams in his ministry as a local church pastor. Help him to be all consumed in the best possible way with your glory being manifest in that local church.

01:48:48

Help him to raise up strong, faithful, biblically robust, devout men to lead that church.

01:48:56

Raise up deacons, raise up members who love you and love the gospel more than they love their own lives.

01:49:02

And Lord, we pray that you would do that in churches all across the globe. We know that you're doing that even now.

01:49:08

And so we rejoice in the grace that we already have in Christ Jesus. And we look forward to heaven, to the day when none of this will matter because we are just utterly lost in the glory that is shining before us.

01:49:23

And we pray this in the mighty, gracious, humble, powerful name of Jesus Christ.