Hard Conversations About Race Within the Church | Isaac Adams

Hard Conversations About Race Within the Church

Isaac Adams, Shonda Mars, the Room for Nuance podcast. Will you open us in prayer? I would love to brother. Thank you for having me. Let's pray. Yeah. Father, we come in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And we ask Lord that you would be glorified in this conversation, that the words of our mouths and the meditations of our heart would be pleasing and acceptable in your sight. And Lord, we confess we need help for that.

Yes. And we need wisdom, not the wisdom from below, but the wisdom from above that is peaceable and open to reason, full of mercy, impartial, sincere, that leads to a harvest of peace and righteousness.

Father, help us, we pray. Thank you for this effort. Bless this initiative. Bless this conversation. Lord, we love you. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. Amen. Thank you, brother. Well, Isaac, can you just give people a 30 second bio of who you are?

30 second? I thought this was Room for Nuance. You're right, okay. Here's the 30 second box. 35 seconds. By who I am. Yeah, yeah. Let's see, Isaac Adams, I've been your friend for a long time. I like that you started there.

Hey, man, you know. Many moons. I love my wife, I'm married. Let's see, I'm the lead pastor of Iron City Church in Birmingham, Alabama. For two years now? Coming on two, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Before that, I was in Capitol Hill, at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, Washington, D .C.

Served a number of different positions there. I was a pastor on staff. Can I pause you right there? I love your story, bro. This isn't a part of my 35 seconds. No, not at all. You were a member. I was.

Faithful. Became an intern. Faithful. Became a pastor. Member, well, yes. I was around D .C. Yeah, you were there. And then pastoral assistant, yes? Faithful. And then assistant pastor, right? And then associate?

Stopped at assistant. Stopped at assistant. I just, we hope that that's the story of guys in our church, right? We're just raising up faithful dudes who are just, yeah, trying to get after it in ministry.

Praise God, man. Well, I mean, they, I mean, I think they were doing, I got a text that I got, my name was mentioned at a members meeting. You know, those texts are always fun. I'm like, ooh. But, you know, no, it was all good.

They were, I think, talking about their VBS. And I think Mark said something like, and Isaac Adams can happen this way. Like, you know, so I was a kid. Mark, Mark Dever, his son went to school with me.

So we were childhood friends. I was never a member of the church, but then when I came back to do the internship, joined in. Gotcha. That's the road you went down. So yeah, but now the assistant pastor, she's really like the residency program there.

I was sent out to be the pastor here in Birmingham, Alabama, a place I never thought I'd live. We can talk about that. I'm married to Megan. I saw this thing the other day. I thought it was really good.

This dude said, I don't call my wife my best friend. That's a demotion. I was like, okay. All right, let's circle back around to that one. Yeah, so I'm married to Megan. We have three little kids. So I always say our kids look like little balls of peanut butter on wheels, just running around.

I mean, literally. Hey, you can say that. I can say that, but don't say that. Yeah, man. So anyway, and then last thing, founded a ministry called United We Pray, which is now a part of Iron City Church, which is devoted to helping Christians pray and think about racial strife.

Spoken word artist? I'd say retired. Retired, same. I'd say retired, but Sean, I heard a piece the other day and it made me want to break it back out. Like, I was like, can I pull this off in time for, I don't want to time stamp our podcast, but like, can I get this done in time for Easter?

And I was like, no, I have to get a sermon done. You think you still got it? Muscle memory? I'd like to think that, but you know, it's always, I mean, writing, it's always clear up here and then you go to write it and it's like, it ain't.

And also author, author of Talking About Race, The Gospel, Hope for Hard Conversations. This is going to be the bulk of our conversation today, but also the author of this little booklet that I give away all the time.

I recently just read a section of it to our congregation in our Sunday morning service to not only encourage, but to exhort them to go get a copy and to read it. This is What If I'm Discouraged in My Evangelism, part of the Nine Marks Little Questions and Answer Series or Church Question Series.

And we're going to get to this a little bit later, but a tiny book, very, very, very largely helpful. Praise God, man. Let's edit that, tiny book, largely helpful, all right. Or don't edit it, who cares?

So brother, let's just get into it. Let's do it. Would it be naive of me to ask you for a 10 ,000 foot overview of the American evangelical landscape when it comes to thinking about race? Is that too big of an ask?

The State of American Evangelicalism on Race

Probably. Well, I mean, I can certainly try, but I appreciate even the recognition that it could be that. Because I think a lot of people are like, well, what is it? And I'm like, well, where are we talking about?

What, who are we talking about? But I think there are, you know, we were talking about this even on United We Pray, like doing kind of like, what's the state of the union here? Like what's going on? And I think, let me, I just am so glad my answers don't have to be 30 seconds.

So let me just say a few things. One right now, I would say where we're at right now, 2023, American evangelicalism is, people are, the fractures have happened and people have taken their balls. Would you say the fault lines?

You can. But I mean, like in so far as that's an accurate metaphor. I think it is. I think it is. There's real fault lines. It's real. And I was even gonna, you know, play upon that metaphor when I go back.

But like where we're at right now, I think it's, you know, the conversation in so many ways has stopped. I don't think it's kind of, we could call it a detente. We could call it, you know, DMZ. But I don't even think it's that.

Like, I think it's like, the forces aren't even present. It's like, you do your thing over there. I'm doing my thing over there. You know, some of that I'm sure is commendable. Life is short. I'm like, I'm gonna stay on the wall.

I'm not gonna come down. Jesus is coming soon and, you know, I love him and you'll see him in heaven. But I think, you know, I think Satan's also getting a win on some of that. So that's where we're at right now.

Okay. 10 ,000 foot. But I think if we're talking kind of like what happened or we can talk really about the last, let's call it 10 to 11 years. 2012, Trayvon Martin happens. 2014, Michael Brown happens.

2020, George Floyd. And sadly, and I'm pointing to those three instances because sadly, I think there's a genre of killings like that, be it Ahmaud Arbery, Walter Scott. We could go through so many. Philando Castile.

I'm not saying they're all the same. I'm not saying, you know, they're all unique cases, but let's just talk about what our churches were feeling. I mean, the sort of icons of our discontent, right? Sure.

And I mean, in the language, in tragedies nonetheless, and frankly, I don't care where you stand. These are the things that we're all bickering about, talking about. Yes, lamenting, grieving, questioning.

And so those three events, tragedies, let's call them. And in some cases, I mean, you know, even the Walter Scott, it's clear, it's been ruled injustice. This was Walter Scott or I was even thinking Ahmaud Arbery.

It's so sad that I get the names confused because there's so many. But anyway, those three, Trayvon, Michael Brown, George Floyd really represent, I think three kind of epicenters. And the tremors of those, so this is the kind of earthquake fault line metaphor.

The tremors of those were felt throughout evangelicalism. I think in different ways where Trayvon was now, again, this is a very limited perspective, 100 ,000 foot view on 10 years. We're not talking about 1865.

We're not talking about Frederick Douglass. We're not talking about Francis Grimke, but we could, right? So limited view. But just for this specific question, with those three epicenters, tremors were felt and Trayvon was like, whoa, what's going on, right?

Michael Brown's like, we need to talk about this. And George Floyd's like, we have to talk about this. Or at least you have to pick your side. I have to pick my side. And then in the middle of that, you have President Trump and all of the things represented in there.

So you've seen the kind of clamoring and then the biting and devouring that James speaks of. I think some of that is because we're made in the image of God and we care about justice. We serve a God of justice.

Justice and righteousness are the foundation of his throne, as the Psalms say. And so we care about those things and it's right to, and so we are animated by them. And yet we have a real adversary that hates the church of God, that knows, Jesus said, this is how the world will know you're my disciples, by the way you love one another.

And if y 'all are one, the world will understand that the father really did send the son. So Satan has a vested interest in us not being one and in us hating each other. And so anyway, man, so all that to say, I think that's, we went from a phase of kind of, it seemed like you, I mean, Sean, it seemed like it was all good 11 years ago.

It really did. We were at the same conferences. We were on the same Legacy in Chicago. Yeah, it was just like, we're just, it's all good. Like this is, and you know, and you know, some people maybe would even use like, it seems like revivals happening, but like sin got in the way and is in the way.

And it's, it's sad. So I was just on the phone with someone, another pastor up here. He's like, I'm just sad by where things are. I don't know who my friends are. Feel like the middle is just evaporating.

Yeah. And I don't know if that's a hundred thousand feet or 10 ,000 feet, but that's what I'd say. But I say right now, I feel like all that fighting has happened and now cats are like, I'm taking my ball.

A settling has taken place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But not a, certainly not a restoration of relationship and fellowship. Yeah. Okay, so in light of people settling in their different positions, some less thoughtfully, more reactionarily, if that's a word, some more thoughtful, right?

They took this time to do the work, to read, to study, listen, pray, have hard conversations. And maybe they've even still arrived at, well, not maybe, we still have arrived at various conclusions about the race question in relation to the gospel, in relation to American life.

Sure. Where would you say you and I land differently? Not necessarily on this idea or that idea, but maybe if we were just to do what we did on your podcast, to take the sort of Kevin DeYoung, one through four, right?

Where Isaac and Sean Differ on Race and Critical Theory

I mean, in the Defending Confirmed podcast, we did like a 15 part series on critical theory, a six part series critiquing critical race theory. That has, in many people's minds, sort of put me in one camp.

You have the United We Pray podcast. You've spoken in certain ways that has, in the minds of some, puts you in a different camp. Yet I'm inclined to think that you and I have more in common than we have, right?

But what would you say, if you were to say, okay, Isaac and Sean, how far apart are we? Man, that's such a good question because it's such a hard question. I feel like even people listened to our podcast we did for United We Pray, where we were trying to tease some of this out.

And one brother, another brother pastor, who both you and I know, he just said, it's funny how much agreement there is when you sit down and define terms. So I do think there's, I'm sure there are differences, like even some, we'll plan on teasing out on some projects we're putting our heads together on.

I mean, to use that taxonomy you just laid out, I'm sure you're probably three and I'm two, maybe, or I'm 2 .5 and you're 3 .5. I was gonna say, if I feel like I'm closer to three, then you are to four.

Ah, okay. Well, you know, I guess So I'm bringing us even closer. Well, I think the reason why I said that is it just depends on who I'm talking to. Well, that's definitely true. And you probably feel the same way, right?

That's for sure. Like some people think I'm a nine, right? And some people think I'm a two. Some people think I'm a one, which blows my mind. You know, the TGC debate, I said, Tim Keller isn't woke. And still dealing with the blowback from that to this day.

Oh, well, yeah, it's nothing. But this is coming from a guy who has very much tried to attack and eviscerate critical theory, right? And it's various manifestations. So in our context, if somebody who has made it sort of their mission to eviscerate critical theory is called the one, then it's almost like, how can we even do this taxonomy?

Yeah, then I'm like, you know, negative on that taxonomy. So, man, I mean, like, I think, like, I just want to, what I would want to highlight is we do have the most important things in common. That's true of every Christian.

So we could go through that and rejoice in that. And that's obviously true. I think we probably share a lot in common. Maybe, I mean, maybe some of it is how we respond, I don't want to say missiologically, but how we respond to those things in the past or the primacy of a perspective on the past and how that would affect how we would address certain conversations, realities today.

I mean, like, I don't know what statements, I was thinking about one that I was like, man, I felt like I could have teased it better on the United We Pray podcast. It was just like, when I hear the statement, just preach the gospel, I think it's problematic on a level.

Not because I don't love the gospel. So don't, anyone wanting to take a soundbite, there it is. I love the gospel. I preached it last night and preached it last Sunday. I'm preaching it next Sunday. I can't wait.

Yeah, it's your life's work. It is. And it's just like, man, I mean, it is so good. I mean, the gospel, okay, I said we wouldn't rejoice in these things, but let's go ahead and rejoice. Let's do it. And it's just this pool that is endlessly deep.

And the wonder of it is the further you dive, the more you breathe. I mean, it's just so, I just feel like I'm, and as a pastor, and really like, you know, as a pastor who's like, okay, I'm the lead guy now.

I'm just seeing what it does to a person and a group of people. I'm like, this is other worldly. This is powerful. This is supernatural. So love the gospel. But what all I would say, so I think, but I think you would see that statement maybe.

I think, you can tell me if I'm wrong. Yes and amen. Yes and amen. And like the nuance I would add to it is like, well, I think Jesus commanded us to teach them to obey all that he commanded. Not to just simply proclaim this message of good news.

And The good news has implications. The good news has implications. So much so that James was like, if you don't rock with those implications, it calls into the very question, the good news that you say you believe.

Your faith is dead. Faith without works is dead. And so I think you probably agree with that nuance. Maybe you 100%. Okay, so then, but like, I think people would see us and see, well, Isaac says the gospel is not enough and Sean does, and Isaac would, you know, maybe chew out some, chew up meat, spit out bones on some CRT stuff, even though I don't really want to talk about CRT.

I just think Paul's so right when he's talking about Racist question. Yeah, well, Paul's so right when he's talking about, like, you know, it only stirs up quarrels. So anyway, but that's to answer that question on some of our, but I would genuinely say, Sean, and even maybe some of the circles you're associated with, like you lean more conservative and I don't know that I would use the word liberal, but I lean the other way.

So I don't know what you say. So I don't know what to call that. Progressive and liberal sounds too political, a label. And when I think of you, I don't think liberal. I think most of our disagreements deal in the arena of like extent, perhaps definition.

So systemic racism, I think that's a real thing. The extent to which it's present in America today, I think you and I would probably disagree on it. How you define racism, I think is something that we might disagree on.

Although we would both wholeheartedly affirm that any kind of ethnic partiality is a sin that we will be punished for in hell if we don't repent of it. And I think that means of common grace, how much we can pull from things like CRT, there'd be some disagreement there.

But even in that little sort of theological triage, we see that the most important things we have in common. We do, and I think you and I have had these conversations and I think one thing, Sean, that I appreciate about our friendship is that we have a friendship outside of these things.

So it's just not all we talk about. Like we're pastors, we're I think only on podcasts about race have we really talked about race. That's why we're like feeling our way around. But, so I appreciate that.

But I do think both you and I are versed in that kind of triage and what you just did in like a minute to commend you, people don't do. Correct. So the conversation stops at when I just said, yeah, I think preaching the gospel or just preach the gospel is a problematic statement.

The conversation stops right there. And now I need the wisdom to know who I'm talking to to say like, well, I'm not gonna throw this firebomb out there. They're not gonna understand what I mean. I have a responsibility as a communicator too.

But I think what you've just done is like we've discovered the common ground and been like, here it is. And here are these nuances on the side and that are super important because they actually allow us to see each other and work together and love each other, I think.

Well, praise God, brother. I think we're already starting to hopefully role model by God's grace, talking about race. Well, which is the title of your book. And that's kind of what I really want this entire episode to be.

Shepherding People Through Difficult Conversations

I read your book from cover to cover. I thought the most helpful parts of your book where you are, are the parts where you're shepherding people through like, hey, you think and say this and here's a better way to think.

And here's a, I felt you shepherding these imaginary characters in your book. And I thought, oh, that's exactly what I do with my people. I've got this person in my church who said something that I think actually is slightly racist.

And I'm trying to think what's the best way I can help them like correct that. And then I have this person over here who says something crazy on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm trying to think, okay, how do I shepherd them?

Not bludgeon them, right? But shepherd them into the truth, right? So I thought that Which right there, that is a different approach. Very different. Certainly then let's just call it Twitter. Twitter is Rome in this sense.

It is a brutal world. And it is, you are out of step, you will be destroyed. You will be obliterated, eviscerated, crucified, destroyed. And that approach, I hope by God's grace, sorry to cut you off.

But I just want to draw out the things because these are the nuances. Like I'm like, if you don't catch it, you'll miss how you get to this kind of conversation. And I think this kind of heart and posture, which I think at the end of the day is frankly, a less angsty place to be.

Just an easier place to be. Though maybe a more heartbroken place to be, but a softer place to be. But I would just say what is represented there, I hope And softer doesn't mean weak. No, I think if anything, it might mean stronger.

I mean, that's a kind of kingdom of God paradox. Like weak is strong, soft is powerful. But what I would say is what you just talked about, not bludgeoning your people. I think people would hear that and be like, kick that person who just said that.

Some of my friends would say, kick that person who just said that somewhat racist thing out of your church. It's like, well, 2 Timothy 2, 24 is the controlling thing for both you and I. That the Lord's servant must be kind to everyone.

Even his enemies. Even his enemies. It's not everyone who agrees with you, not everyone who is on your side of the taxonomy, but to everyone. And it's that very kindness that might, God might Use it to lead them to repentance.

Use them to lead them to repentance, just like he did in his kindness toward us. That doesn't mean you tolerate, I mean, he gives us instruction for tolerating and not tolerating clear morals, failure and sin.

But it ain't conversation one, bludgeon, you're out. That's right. There is a certain advantage that we have as pastors in thinking through these things, because we are so used to dealing with a plethora of people, all of whom are at various places in their sanctification journey.

And so it's just not hard for us to be like, oh, you believe something wrong. We're going to have to work on that. That's just normal. I think you're godlier than me. I think it's a little harder for me.

Bro, you haven't seen me on my worst day, okay? You haven't. I certainly have more categories than probably the average person does as a pastor. Okay, but now back to the point that I was getting at here.

I don't agree with everything in your book, which this would be a miraculous book if I did, right? I mean I think I say in the first few pages, you don't have to agree to be godly. And so this is why I wanted us to talk about our differences because I want us in this podcast to do what this book is really all about.

It's how to have difficult conversations. It's not how to have conversations in rooms with people that you, with whom you are in complete agreement, right? Echo chamber conversations are the easiest conversations in the world, right?

But even where there's minor disagreements, especially along such an explosive topic like race, conversations can be really difficult. And so I just want us to have these conversations. I want us to spend the next hour and change role modeling what it looks like to have difficult conversations about race.

And I pray that God gives us the grace to do that. Amen, and we will need his grace to do it. And on that, what you just said about the echo chamber, Jared Wilson, I think said something really helpful.

He said, the easiest sins to preach against are the sins of the people who aren't in the room. So we're coming back to that. We're going to talk about Trevin Wax's idea of multi-directional leadership.

I think I want to hear your thoughts on that, but let's start off with a doozy. You've seen it. You've seen it. The mic will, oh, and by the way, this is not going to be like gotcha journalism. I really hope not.

No, no, no, this is a doozy in the sense that I think it'll just lead to a very fruitful discussion. Okay, and my intent in this is not even to be like an interlocutor. I'm not trying to debase you. I genuinely want to hear your thoughts and yeah, and just want to hear your thoughts.

Morgan Freeman and Colorblindness vs. Color Consciousness

So you've probably seen the Mike Wallace, Morgan Freeman, 60 Minutes interview clip. It's been posted everywhere, especially since 2011 as he's raised conversation. I'll read it for you in case it's not registering with you.

Mike Wallace asks Morgan Freeman about Black History Month. Morgan Freeman says, I don't like it. And he goes, you know, what month is your history month? And he goes, well, I don't have one. And he goes, well, why should I have one?

And so on and so forth, the conversation goes until Mike Wallace asks an easy question of Mr. Morgan Freeman, how are we going to get rid of racism? And Freeman responds like this, stop talking about it.

I'm going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man. I know you as Mike Wallace. You know me as Morgan Freeman. You want to say, well, I know this white guy named Mike Wallace.

You know what I'm saying? And then they go on and they've, you know, Mike Wallace is descendant of Jewish ancestry and so on and so forth. But Morgan Freeman here is advocating for kind of the opposite of what you're advocating for.

And brother, listen, I know that even when it comes to the subject of race, there is no such thing as like a black monolith, right? Like different black people are going to have different opinions about how to handle this conversation.

But as a guy who has black friends who are on both sides of the conversation, let's Morgan Freeman stop talking about it. Even atheist, secular philosopher, Sam Harris, right? The more you look at it, the worse it becomes.

Let's treat skin color like the color of people's eyes. It just doesn't really register versus we need to talk about it. You are obviously, you wrote a book about it in the, we need to talk about it category.

What would you say to Morgan Freeman if you were sitting here today and you were having that conversation with him? I'd say, number one, you have an incredible voice that I'm jealous of. I want you to narrate the story of my life.

Please do. Yeah, I mean, Morgan is... I feel like I need to call him Mr. Freeman. Right, yeah. Yeah, Morgan's arguing for what would traditionally be called colorblindness. Now it's interesting, I just, I love the nuance.

So let me add a nuance. I don't think what I'm advocating is necessary. I certainly am advocating talking about it. To a degree, though I certainly talk about like, hey, here are times to stop the conversation or when you should, like, but let me just say, I would say the opposite of colorblindness is a full-blown kind of what might be called an anti-racism.

And I think there are aspects that... Which, sorry, just define, anti-racism doesn't just mean being against racism. Well, yeah, this would be, thank you for asking for the definition. What I would say is a more, with more secular...

Secular... Like a hyper-race awareness. Yeah, like a hyper, that's probably the simplest. You say it here in your book, color consumed. Yes. You have this helpful chart on page 64. Yes. On the right, colorblind, ostensibly ignoring race and ethnicity completely, right?

Yes. And then, and I like how you have white, black and gray color coding. And then on the opposite side, there's color consumed, seeing everything through the lens of race and ethnicity. And in the middle, this is what you're advocating, color consciousness, or to be color conscious, celebrating how all people are fearfully and wonderfully made and showing no partiality while compassionately honoring different experiences.

Yeah, and I think one brother who I think is doing really good work on this is George Yancey, where he walks through the models of colorblindness, anti-racism, and he critiques those models. Is that in Working Past Racial Gridlock?

That's Beyond Racial Gridlock, what you're referring to. The book I'm talking about is Beyond Racial Division. Okay. So that's what I would say on that. But the reason I say that is because not, I understand what Morgan Freeman is getting at in not looking at it.

And what I would say to, or not, I forget, I almost want you to reread the quote, but I won't make us take the time to do that. No, that's fine. He says, you know, stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man, and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.

Yeah. I'll just sort of know you as, I think it's the echo of the 1960s. You know, like the protestors, the black protestors holding up signs that say, am I not a man? Yeah. And the point there for them was, don't see me, first of all, as a black man, see me as a man.

Yeah. And on so much of that, I understand because they were saying, I am human. They were fighting for that. So, and you know what Morgan is getting at was saying, I am more than a black, I am more than my blackness, let's call it.

Yes and amen. Like, we are, we, and that's why I have characters in this book because I realized pretty quickly, just to write a didactic, well, white people think this, and black people think, it wouldn't work.

You needed the kind of flesh. People are way more complicated. Yes. They're like, people are complicated. They say true things and unhelpful things. They say, and so that's, so on that, I'm like, yes and amen.

And on one level, you know, well, here's the critique I would offer Morgan. I'd say, Morgan, I appreciate what you're getting at. I appreciate, you know, all the things you're saying. And we can talk about race being a social construct and all those things and it not really existing.

But like, we could talk about it being a biological fiction, but a social fact maybe. But what I'd really say is like, is not the way you look a part of God's design for you? And is not the way I look part of God's design for me?

And in other words, is this kind of diversity simply a mistake? Like God spilled the paint in heaven? Or is it something that can be recognized and appreciated? And I feel like the colorblind approach looks at the matter and is just like, just ignore it.

Just ignore it. It causes problems when we go there. And maybe the best kind of perspective, it produces quarreling when we go there. It produces strife. It produces injustice. And certainly it does. You have to, and they're saying, when you're consumed with it, as you have to be to say whites only, they were so hyper-conscious, it just went the other way where it was terrible.

It was horrible. And yet, is there a way? But I think there's, I think folks are often trying to throw out all the bad bath water, but they wind out throwing the baby of goodness in the conversation that we can have.

That's one thing I'd say. One thing, if Mr. Freeman were a Bible man, he would be quick, I think, to quote Colossians 3 .11. Here there is not Greek and Jew circumcised and uncircumcised barbarians to the enslave free, but Christ is all and in all.

What a beautiful verse, right? And colorblind advocates will say, see, see, it's Bible. And I'm like, man, yes and amen. But two things real quick. Number one, and I think it's the verse in Galatians where he says, there's neither male or female.

We agree that there is. No one's gender blind. And we run the church as if that's true. Women's small groups, men's small groups. No issues. Men pastors. Yeah, men pastors, right. There's real realities.

We run the church as if that's true. And even on that front, I'm not even saying gender and race are the same thing, but I'm just saying, wait, he said there was no, he said there was no gender in Galatians.

And yet we recognize that's a reality. And in the book of Ephesians, we know that there were still slaves within the church. And so Paul, just to come back to Colossians. So Paul, the very Paul who wrote that in one chapter, he comes back and he says in Colossians 4 .11, he's going through kind of his co-laborers.

This one doesn't get as much play. He says, in Jesus, who is called justice, these are the only men of the circumcision among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God. And they have been a comfort to me.

I think that's really interesting. Paul is saying like, look, we got this team, it's diverse. These are the only Jews I'm rocking with in this iteration of his ministry. And they've been a comfort to me.

It feels good to be around some Jews. I mean, it's just Paul was the Jew of Jews. Like there was a reality, they understood what the derision and the difficulty of Paul's ministry to be ministering to Gentiles as a Jew.

And there was specific ways they could encourage Paul in that. So when I hear Mr. Freeman just be like, well, obliterate it all. A white person can encourage you just the same as a black person, just the same as an Asian person.

I'm like, I just think you're overcorrecting in that sense. And you're robbing yourself and others of appreciating the goodness of the similarities. And there are real similarities and real differences.

That's good, brother. So let's go back to that history question. We are certainly not going to try to suss out all the ways in which the present is affected by the past. Honestly, I think that's a sort of hubris when anyone thinks that they can do that even more than moderately well.

The Lasting Impact of Racial History in America

It's just a big, complicated, tangled mess. There's no such thing as a monocausal explanation. And there's rarely a dire tri-causal explanation as well. So I guess one question that might be useful to ask here is, at what point do we feel like we've escaped the sort of gravitational pull of the horrors of history?

Are we still gonna be having this same conversation 20 years, 50 years, 100 years from now? How many times are these organizations, and interpret this question in the most charitable light possible, organizations, like the SBC has issued multiple apologies for things done in the past.