Special: Treachery in Arizona

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I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified

00:09

Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles. Well, I would say the same idea. I would say that. I would say what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust?

00:18

In the cosmic picture, none. There's no problem. In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr.

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President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.

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I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar.

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He is a powerful savior, and the gospel is not a suggestion.

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It is a command. Reverend Moller, don't you sympathize with that?

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I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

01:27

What an amazing adventure. We will explore the spiritual abyss. You have not experienced this before.

01:47

What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. ApologiaStudios .com

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Get access to all of the amazing, delicious lectures, seminary courses, sermons, all that stuff from Bonson's vast archive.

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It's more and more is coming. We're remastering Dr. Bonson's lectures, so they sound wonderful. So more is coming.

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And don't forget to sign up for all access. Make everything that we're doing possible. I want to read to you guys a quick couple of verses here from Isaiah chapter 3.

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Isaiah chapter 3, verse 10. And tell the righteous that it shall be well with them, for they shall eat the fruit of their deeds.

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Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with them, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him.

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My people, infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

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Oh, my people, your guides mislead you, and they have swallowed up the course of your paths. That's Isaiah chapter 3, y 'all.

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I'm Jeff the Culminator Ninja. That's Luke the Bear. What up? And that is Joy the Girl right there. Hello. All right.

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So a very important couple of things to announce. Next week, I will be in Columbia, South Carolina.

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Columbia, South Carolina at the Capitol. May the 4th at 10 a .m.

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is, I believe. Yes, Eastern time. Yeah, on South Carolina time. Come join me.

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We have a rally for equal protection. Representative Jonathan Hill is there putting forth that legislation to protect humans from conception.

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Equal protection is what we're asking for for all human beings. That's happening right now in South Carolina. Columbia, South Carolina, May 4th.

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If you are in surrounding states or you can fly in, come join me, 10 a .m. This is a big deal. I want to say thank you so very much to everybody who has been partnered with us for years with End Abortion Now.

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If you have given to this work over the years and this past year, I want to say a huge thank you to you.

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I want to just tell you how grateful I am for you to partner with us in this, and I want to let you know that the four states that happened this year happened with your help and your support.

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That's why it's happening. So big praise to God for that. Man, so much is happening right now.

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So we are going to do a show today. You'll notice the title of the show is

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Treachery in Arizona. Very important show. Very sad news to report to you as well.

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So important show. We're going to actually engage an issue from a biblical perspective that we hope changes your mind.

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We know that lots of people watch this show who would consider themselves pro -life, and you might be surprised to hear some of our disagreement with what just happened in Arizona and happens, of course, across the country.

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I'll just announce this to sort of whet your appetite. The four states just in 2021 that have had legislation for equal protection to abolish or criminalize abortion, the four states' greatest opposition has been the pro -life industry.

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The greatest opposition. The pro -life industry is stopping these bills, and the pro -life industry doesn't want these bills ultimately passed, and there's reasons for that.

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There are worldview issues. There are philosophy issues. There are issues of justice, law, and punishment.

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By what standard do we approach this issue of abortion as Christians? So I know that we talk about this quite a lot on Apology Radio.

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However, I want you to stay seated and stay put for this episode because we're actually going to engage with the issues to hopefully change your mind on this.

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We want to have renewed minds in every area. I think all of us want to work towards Reformation and our theology and our thinking back to the

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Word of God as the standard. We want to have a consistent Christian position and Christian worldview, and I hope to change your mind.

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I know that a lot of people saw the post that I had the last couple of days. They saw me on the news where I was saying that this bill that was just passed,

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SB 1457 by Kathy Herod in the Center for Arizona Policy, was a bill of cowardice, and it was a treacherous bill.

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And I know that I actually got some messages, quite a few messages from people like Students for Life.

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I think the word got out across the country with Students for Life, and a lot of them are just saying, Jeff, I really appreciate your ministry, but what are you doing?

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Why are you trying to smear her reputation? This seems counterintuitive. Why are you going this direction?

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And I want to just say, I hope that you'll listen today to our hearts, of course, but don't let that be the main thing.

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We're not trying to convince you with emotion. Listen to the biblical and rational argumentation as we go through this, and I hope that you'll be willing to change your mind on this issue because it is vitally important that it does.

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Before we start, anything you guys want to say? No, let's get into it. Right to it.

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All right, so what we're going to do today is we're going to go through this. I'm actually going to play through Kathy Harrod's Facebook post after the bill officially went to Doug Ducey's desk, and Doug Ducey signed it.

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It went through the Senate, the House, and it went to the governor, and it passed. It's done. SB 1457 is now a matter of legislation in Arizona, the sovereign state of Arizona, and, of course,

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SB 1457 decriminalized abortion for mothers in Arizona. I'll say it again.

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The pro -life industry put forth legislation that decriminalized abortion in the state of Arizona for mothers who kill their children, and there's a reason for that.

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It has everything to do with Kathy Harrod's worldview, and so we're going to go through that. So first thing, catching you up,

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I want to announce something that is, of course, heartbreaking, but as believers, we know that God is always working with mustard seeds that become trees.

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We know that the Christian faith started with some very confused disciples, a handful of them, before the

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Lord Jesus, and when He ascended, He said He had all authority in heaven and on earth.

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That's a long time ago. He said He already had it, and it was a very confused little group of people, and Jesus told them to go and to win the entire world and to bring them to the obedience of Christ.

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Now, Jesus works through history like leaven in a lump of dough with His kingdom.

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His dominion and His rule is everlasting. It will never pass away, and as Isaiah chapter 9 says and Isaiah chapter 42 says, the

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Messiah's kingdom will establish justice in the earth, and He will not grow faint or weary until He's done so, and so we have hope in the midst of a fallen world.

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Jesus and His gospel goes forth into the world. Hearts and minds are transformed via the truth, and that's how the world changes, and so we know there are moments where we see great victories and moments where we see what we perceive as losses, but they're not really losses, and I'll bring you right into it.

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Many of you guys know that we had Representative Walt Blackman. He's from the

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House of Representatives in the state of Arizona. Walt Blackman, love the man, love his wife. They are truly, truly, truly wonderful people.

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We love them. They're dear to us. Representative Blackman was on our program.

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Representative Blackman put forth HB 2650 in Arizona. It was our bill, and it was a bill of equal protection that all human beings in the state of Arizona deserve equal protection.

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Sounds like a pro -life bill. Very much so. Isn't that what they believe? Pro -lifers all say you're human from conception.

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There's no denying it. From conception, you're human. Life deserves dignity, respect.

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It needs to be valued. We believe, pro -lifers say, in the sanctity of human life, and when do pro -life industries say that human life begins?

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From conception. So when you have a bill put forth, HB 2650 in the state of Arizona, that says all human life deserves equal protection, you would think that every pro -life industry leader would be jumping on board immediately saying, that's our bill.

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That's our bill. That's everything we've been asking for. That's all we were praying about, even though we refuse to be explicitly

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Christian in our organizations, in our public professions. But that's besides the point.

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This bill, HB 2650, should have been the dream bill for anybody who's in the pro -life industry. Human. From conception.

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We all agree on that. Equal protection for all humans. What's wrong with that? Isn't that what we want? Isn't that what we have been fighting for?

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So, everyone knows Representative Walt Blackman put forth our bill. He had co -sponsors. It was an amazing thing.

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We did a rally at the Arizona State Capitol, and Walt Blackman was there, of course. We've been praying for Walt Blackman.

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We've been praying that God would keep him courageous and that he would stand firm. And, unfortunately, Unfortunately, the bill was resisted from the top by the leading pro -life industry leaders in the state of Arizona because they have a worldview commitment that is fundamentally in opposition to the

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Christian worldview. They believe that mothers and fathers who kill their children via abortion are themselves victims.

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I'm going to say that again because you need to embrace this. I talked about changing your mind, not just to get in step with Jeff's position or Joy's position or Luke's position.

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Change your mind according to scripture. They believe mothers and fathers who kill their children via abortion are equally victims.

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They are also victims. Now, hang on to that for a second. Let it sit. Do you believe that as a

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Christian? That when a mother brings her child into an assassin to have it dismembered, disemboweled, and decapitated that that mother before God is guiltless?

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That she is herself a victim? Do you believe that as a Christian? Because that's what Kathy Harrod believes.

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That she's a victim. I had a personal relationship with Kathy Harrod. I talked to her personally, and she told me personally that she could never call women who have abortions murderers guilty of abortion because she says she has too many sisters in Christ who have this in their past and she can't say they're guilty of murder.

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So, for Kathy Harrod, there is no gospel solution for the mother who's had an abortion because she's a victim herself.

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She doesn't need Christ in that because she's not guilty of anything, according to Kathy Harrod.

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She's a victim. Victims aren't guilty. Therefore, the women that she thinks she's protecting by saying you're not guilty of murder are women that she's leaving without the hope of the gospel in this.

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However, this leads to how she fights legislatively. Kathy Harrod fights legislatively to work against the concept that human beings in the womb deserve equal protection with all human beings because Kathy Harrod, the day we had the rally, opposed our bill.

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She opposed it publicly via Center for Arizona Policy's Twitter page and public platforms and her own.

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She said she could never support a bill that led to penalties for women. She believes both mother and baby are victims.

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And so Kathy Harrod opposed the bill for equal protection because she does not want equal protection for all humans in the womb.

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I'm going to say it again because, yes, it's true. She does not want equal protection for humans in the womb.

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The proof is that she doesn't want mothers punished for killing their children in the womb. Did you get it?

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Would Kathy Harrod want a mother punished for murdering her five -year -old child? Yes, but she does not want that same protection, equal protection for the child in the womb.

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Kathy Harrod has an anti -Christian, irrational, and inconsistent worldview. And so Kathy Harrod did something.

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She opposed the bill for equal protection. She talked other legislators out of signing it.

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So Kathy Harrod is responsible before God for resisting the bill to establish justice for the preborn.

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So when everyone says to Pastor Jeff, Jeff, I think you're being mean -spirited here. You need to support Kathy. She's on the same page.

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Brothers and sisters, she's responsible before God for resisting the bill to establish justice for preborn children in the womb.

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I'm going to say this clearly. Babies are dying right now in Arizona because, in part, of Kathy Harrod and Center for Arizona Policy.

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That cannot be refuted. You can't sustain an argument against it. That's a fact.

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She knows, Kathy, if you watch this, you know about the legislators that you talked to and told them not to support that bill.

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You talk people out of supporting the bill for equal protection because you don't want mothers to ever be seen as guilty.

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Therefore, you're never ending abortion, Kathy Harrod. You never will. And Kathy Harrod further put in a bill,

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SB 1457. SB 1457. Now, what is that? SB 1457 is a long bill, lengthy bill.

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And in this bill, I'll give you a couple things, and then I'm going to pass it on to you guys here, let you say something here. I don't want to catch everybody up in the audience wrong.

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SB 1457 was a bill that she put forward after rejecting the bill for equal protection because of her worldview, because she doesn't want mothers and fathers ever guilty of killing their children.

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That's what she says. She put forth a bill that said, you cannot kill a child in Arizona via abortion because of genetic abnormalities for that purpose.

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Now, I'm going to respond to this a few times in this episode. That's an irrelevant bill. Say it again.

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It's irrelevant. Because all a mother or father has to do in Arizona is simply say to the abortionist,

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I'm not killing it because it has Down syndrome. I don't want it. And Kathy knows that's how you get around the bill.

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The bill is irrelevant. You can't kill the child because it has a genetic abnormality. So the mother or father just says,

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I don't want it. Kill it. Which is usually the case anyways. That's what the case is anyways. Further, think about the irrationality of this argumentation.

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Kathy Harrod says that she believes that it's human from conception. Human from conception.

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And what she's saying here is, we will allow in Arizona with this legislation for you to kill the healthy children, but not the children who are handicapped.

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That is in fact what you are saying when you back a bill like this. You can kill the healthy children, just don't kill the kids with Down syndrome.

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And anyways, all you have to say is, I'm not killing it for that reason. I'm killing it because I hate it.

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And that's it. It's an irrelevant bill that puts more money in Kathy Harrod and Center for Arizona Policy's pockets, making their pro -life donors think that they're doing something when she is a coward.

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And every person who signed this bill is a coward because they signed a bill they will have to give an account for before God that says,

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I will accept the murder of healthy human beings, just don't kill the ones with problems.

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Now imagine that in terms of sex trafficking. Would you ever do so in sex trafficking?

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Say, you know, I think sex trafficking is bad, but here's the deal. We'll allow it in the state of Arizona, except not the kids with Down syndrome.

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What's the difference? In principle, it is the same concept.

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Conceptually, it's the same. Then she says that you have to give your child a proper burial.

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SB 1457, everyone said, oh, isn't that wonderful? Isn't it lovely? She puts in there that you have to give your child a proper burial.

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What cowardice. Aborted children. Aborted children. Yeah. So you kill your child in Arizona, but now you have to give a proper burial.

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Brothers and sisters, listen, come on. Let's be real here, please. Would you talk this way about Jews in Auschwitz?

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Like, would you be in Auschwitz supporting legislation that says you can continue killing the Jews at Auschwitz, but you must give them a proper burial?

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Would you support that legislation? Because that's in principle what this legislation says. Furthermore, listen, this is an industry, friends.

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Do you think Planned Parenthood is worried about that? All they have to do is put extra pricing in the abortion process, and you don't ever have to go to the funeral of the child you just killed.

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You don't have to do any details. This is a business. It's an industry. They will work the details out to where you don't have to deal with anything here.

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Your child's just going to be cremated or buried. And they say, well, you know, maybe this will stop mothers from actually killing their children if they know they have to bury their child.

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I would say this. You haven't spent much time outside of an abortion mill, have you? You haven't. Because the mothers and fathers going inside there have a very different reasoning process, let's put it that way, when they go into that abortion mill.

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But Kathy Harrod thinks it's a victory that you can kill your kids in Arizona, but you just have to give them a proper burial. Kathy Harrod also brags about the fact that this bill does something related to chemical abortion pills, abortifacients shipped through the mail.

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Like, you know, these women are going to need support. It shouldn't come through the mail delivered to them sort of a thing. Brothers and sisters, they just go elsewhere to get it.

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And go to Walmart. How far is the drive to Target or Walmart in your area? I saw them at a gas station the other day.

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How far is the gas station from your house? You think that's a problem for the abortifacient industry that you can't transmit them through the mail?

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They'll deliver them by truck, friend. They'll deliver them in mass to convenience stores and locations.

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This did absolutely nothing and further, worse of all, she repealed, and I'll show it to you right here.

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I want you to see it with your own eyes. This is 13 -3604. This is

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Arizona statute never changed. Now, I want you guys to come with me on this. It's very important. Actually, hold on.

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I'm going to shut up for a second before I go into this. You guys. I don't want to go too far without you guys getting a chance to comment.

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The hypocrisy in all this is thick. So, I know we were having conversations yesterday, but how do we word what has taken place in a way that shows that hypocrisy?

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For those of you that don't know, you may be just tuning in, Arizona has had 13 -3603.

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It has been illegal in Arizona since after Roe v. Wade. Sorry, I misquote it sometimes.

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3603 is for the abortionist. 3604 is for her. Okay. So, that's what she struck was 0 -4. So, it's been illegal for the mother to get the abortion, to have the abortion, and for the doctor to perform the abortion.

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Both ways. But the government has been cowardice.

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They've been afraid to enforce that because of Roe v. Wade. And so, the two bills, we actually put forth two bills this year.

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One was the Equal Protection Act, and the other one was, all it said was uphold the laws that are already in place.

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So, Kathy talked all of the Republicans out of voting for those. She could have ended abortion outright altogether.

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It could have been that simple. She talked them out of it in order to do her bill, which you just described.

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And so, like you were saying, essentially, you can't abort your child if it's got downs, but all the other ones you can.

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And she's celebrating this as a victory, but of course, then she struck, what was it? 13 -3604.

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So, I'm going to read that for you and you continue. Okay, go ahead. 13 -3604 here it is, everybody. This has been the current legislation on the books.

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It is, according to Kathy Harrod, pre -Roe law that punishes women. It says,

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A woman who solicits from any person any medicine, drug, or substance, whatever, and takes it, or who submits to an operation, or to the use of any means, whatever, with intent thereby to procure a miscarriage, unless it is necessary to preserve her life, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not less than one, nor more than five years.

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That's Arizona Statute 13 -3604. Kathy Harrod had it struck.

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Yeah. So, essentially, what she has done now is she's decriminalized it to get an abortion.

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Yeah. Right? But it's still criminalized to perform an abortion. This is where the hypocrisy is mind -boggling.

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This is where she knows that that law is relevant. Yeah. It's against the law, in her mind, to perform the abortion, but not to get it.

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So, like you were saying, if we were to take this and translate it to any other situation, say the child is three years old, she wouldn't say,

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Oh, it's against the law to kill that child, but it's not against the law for you to hire an assassin, or any other crime, whether it be sex trafficking, whether it be rape, any other crime like that, she wouldn't think the same thing.

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She wouldn't say the same thing. So, that's where the hypocrisy in this is, it's just mind -boggling to me that that's what she's saying.

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That's what she's saying, and that's what she's celebrating. So, I just wanted to say that. She, this needs to be said,

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I'll pass it over to Joy, she decriminalized abortion for mothers and fathers in the state of Arizona.

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She says that there should be no penalties for mothers and fathers who kill their children. Arizona believed it was.

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It's been on our books. Kathy Herrod is the one who told me about this bill about eight years ago or so.

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She told me that it is currently against the law for a mother to kill her child in Arizona. Kathy Herrod told me that.

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Kathy, if you watch this right now, you remember that phone call we had together. You told me about this bill. So, you've known about it for a long time, and you resisted the bill for equal protection, and you worked to actually decriminalize abortion in Arizona for the mother.

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Kathy Herrod, pro -life industry leader in Arizona, worked to decriminalize and then decriminalized abortion in Arizona for mothers who kill their children.

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That's a fact. It's the truth. Can't be denied. So, this is the

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Sheologian's Book Club. Come join us for the Sheologian's Book Club. Self -promotion.

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Do it, do it. Sheologian's. Go get it, guys. We're reading a book, and it's the, by the standard, the founders, it's like a compilation of a bunch of authors.

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Yeah. But it's from founders, and Tom Askell wrote the first chapter, and basically, the entire first chapter is just about Colossians talking about not being captive to philosophy or empty deceit, and basically figuring out where is that philosophy that you're hearing coming from.

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It's not according to Christ. Right, and does it line up with scripture, and it just, obviously, it's very appropriate, appropriately placed in the book, but I think it's appropriately placed in this conversation, too.

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I think this is, the entire situation that we've just described is the fruit of someone being held captive by philosophies, empty deceit, all that stuff.

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Yeah. Things that are contrary to Christ, and it's madness.

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It doesn't make sense. It's confusing. It's double -minded. It's like not even, it's promoting two things that work against each other, and that is,

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I just hope that this stands as it's representative of the foolishness that comes from the philosophy of our world today, which is that something can be murder, but it's not killing anything, but the people who, the people who contract the murder are not guilty, and they're not killers, and maybe the baby is a human, but not as much of a human, so maybe that's why.

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It's just, it's all this contradictory, it's just foolishness, and it's all the result of the last few decades of Christians not protecting themselves, and not taking any responsibility for not being deceived.

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We're not supposed to be deceived, and so there's plenty of things.

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There's really poor discipleship. There's a lot of churches that teach 100 % heresy, and that's all they teach, and so yeah, it is difficult.

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It can be difficult for the legitimate Christian out there, but we do still have a responsibility to not be deceived, and if this is, if you are in the pro -life industry or supportive of the stuff that we've already talked about on the show, it is your, if you are a

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Christian, it's your responsibility to make sure that this is not empty, vain, and foolish, and it is.

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I hope that we've demonstrated that it is. We will continue to do so, but we just need to keep in mind that if you claim to be a

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Christian, you are commanded by Scripture to not be captive to philosophies that are in contradiction to the

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Scripture, and any philosophy that says that you can kill a child and not be a murderer is contrary to Christ.

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Yes. Not according to Christ. Very much so. It's worldly thinking. We've been influenced. We've been indoctrinated. So I'm going to get back to Walt Blackman in a second here, guys, but first show you that this is in fact what the bill says.

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I want to give you evidence. I don't want to just give you stories. I want to show you and see with your own eyes. So this, I showed you

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AZ Statute 13 -S3604 that Pastor Luke was talking about. That's the criminalization of abortion in Arizona for the woman who has one, does it, procures it, takes the stuff, gets the operation, murders her child.

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This is the bill right here. It's in the bill. You can see it right here. It is section, it's on line 25.

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Section 13 -3604, that's the one you just saw, Arizona Revised Statutes, is repealed.

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Now why is it, do you think, that Kathy Harrod, Center for Arizona Policy, fought to get that little one line in there?

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Because she is a fundamentally anti -Christian, contradictory worldview. She does not want women ever, ever, ever to be punished for murdering their children in the womb.

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So she slipped in one little line there. Repeal. Repeal the law that criminalizes abortions for mothers who kill their children.

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Notice what she left in though, 13 -3603, which says what?

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That the person actually doing it is guilty. They should be punished. So she believes the abortionist is guilty, like Joy said, but she believes that the mother who kills her child is not.

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Because she has a fundamentally bad worldview. She has a philosophy that is not according to Christ.

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She's been deceived. And it's not even, it's, in the practical outworking of it, we know that it's not true.

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And that's something you hear from the pro -life community all the time. You, you're constantly hearing that they're a victim, basically of ignorance or, oh yeah, yes,

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I agree with you about philosophies and our world was taught so much that abortion's not murder, that these women just, these women just don't know what they're doing.

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And we know that fundamentally, that's not true. Anyone who has ever, I mean, whether it be in front of a

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Planned Parenthood, on the internet, I would say most people who have spoken with a woman who has, is about to have an abortion, has had an abortion, for the most part, right now, you're not going to get someone that's like, well,

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I just had no idea. I didn't know I was a baby. I had no idea what was happening. If I had known,

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I would make a different decision. That's just not, that's not the case. Right. And so the bad news continued.

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Kathy Harrod, I wanted to put her in that story so you can hear. She had a conversation with Walt Blackman and in that conversation,

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Walt told her, we need to be courageous, we need to do what's right. And she pretended like she was going to support him. She didn't. She resisted it.

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She resisted it. Same day. Yeah, she resisted it. Same day of the rally, same day as that presentation.

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And she put her bill in, 1457, decriminalized abortion in Arizona for the mother. She left the legislation in that says that the abortionist is guilty.

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Why do you think that is? Do you think it's that she doesn't think those laws are relevant or that they will be relevant at some point?

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She knows they're relevant. She knows their current law, but she likes to see abortionists not able to do this, but she doesn't believe women should ever be punished.

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And there's the fundamental flaw, the fatal flaw in the pro -life industry's worldview. Walt Blackman, we're praying for him.

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We want to see him be courageous and do what's right. We love him. We love his family. Nothing's changed on that. We truly do.

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Problem is that Walt Blackman voted yes on this legislation. So I'll show it to you.

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This is Walt Blackman's profile on Facebook. And he took a picture of the

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House roll call. And this is Bartow's bill, SB 1457. If you look down there, about four down to the left, it says

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Blackman, yes. So Walt Blackman voted yes on the bill that decriminalized abortion for mothers in Arizona.

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Is it heartbreaking? Yes. Are we still grateful to God and rejoicing over the fact that we got to start a fight and we will win this with Walt Blackman's bill?

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We're grateful to God. We know that first, in order to actually have an effect, you have to have godly, righteous controversy.

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You have to have prophets speaking in the public square. You have to have people going into the marketplace, preaching.

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Don't believe me? Read the book of Acts. Read the book of Acts and tell me that that's not how spirit -filled ministry ought to look.

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That's what happened. Spirit of God fills people of God. They go into the public square preaching the gospel. You know what happens? People want to kill them.

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People come to Christ. People start riots. Paul's lowered out of windows. They're brought before councils.

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They're taking beatings for Jesus and the gospel is exploding because they're bringing the truth into the public square.

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They're creating godly, righteous controversy. And that's what's happening here right now, 2021. Four states right now, godly, righteous controversy.

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They're starting this conversation that needs to happen to actually take down the cultural idols and, as Joy was talking about, to actually refute those who contradict and to refute a philosophy that is not according to Christ in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

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You want to know what's true? You want to know how to do this? You have to go to Christ. He's the foundation. Kathy Harrod doesn't do that.

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Walt Blackman didn't do that here. We're praying for you, Walt. We love you. We love your wife. We love your family.

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We're praying for you. We want to see this actually be healed and we want to see you do what's right, like you said you're going to do.

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We want to believe the best about you, Walt, that you are a man of courage and principle and that you will uphold justice for these children.

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So I want to make sure it's clear. We want Kathy Harrod to repent and to do what's right.

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We want Kathy Harrod to be on the right side, Christ's side on this issue, these children's side on this issue.

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But it is true that Walt Blackman did vote yes on SB 1457 and it is a sad thing and it is something that I think should become a public repentance, this bill decriminalized abortion for mothers in Arizona.

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That's no small matter. That's no small matter. Next, I wanted to play for everybody this from Kathy Harrod.

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This is Kathy Harrod when the governor signed the bill that she put forth and went through the

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House and Senate. Here is Kathy. By the way, I will say, this is interesting, I never see

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CAP's live videos come up. I never get notifications. You know what's really weird?

34:10

What? Is this video came up, I got a notification. Oh, that's weird. Which I never get. And I was like, oh, perfect.

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I wonder if they targeted you. As soon as she opened it, as soon as she opened it and started talking, I was on the thread and every argument she was making here for the bill,

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I was answering it. I was saying, well, they could just do this. Well, that doesn't matter. This didn't do anything.

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You decriminalized abortion. Tell everybody, Kathy. And you know what she did? After the video was over, she took her comments off.

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Not engaged with them. She won't engage because she can't. She didn't engage with them. She took them off and erased them.

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But if you watch this video, here's what's interesting. I was really the only person on the thread at the time. There was like one person watching.

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I think it ended up with 10, but I was the one person. You see her struggling because my comments are coming up while she's doing the video.

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So you'll see her struggling here. You took the comments down, Kathy, because you can't engage with this position.

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Your position is inconsistent. It is not Christian. It's leading to the deaths of children. You can't engage with this position.

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You know you can't. I challenge you to a public debate on this issue. We'll pay for the entire thing,

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Kathy. Let's do a public debate on this issue, and let's engage it publicly. Let's do it. So there's the invitation to a public debate.

35:21

Let's do it. Here's Kathy. Good afternoon. It's Kathy Herod with a praise report.

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Today, Governor Doug Ducey signed Senate Bill 1457. Senate Bill 1457, sponsored under the incredible leadership of Senator Nancy Bartow, protects unborn babies from discrimination simply because of their genetic condition.

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Unborn children who are diagnosed with a genetic condition like cystic fibrosis,

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Down syndrome, dwarfism, will no longer be able to be aborted simply because of their genetic condition.

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Now she's a lawyer. Did you know that? She was an attorney. She chooses her words very carefully.

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She's a smart woman. She really is. Notice how she says she has to make sure she can clarify the bill can't really do anything to stop abortion in Arizona simply because of dwarfism, simply because of Down syndrome.

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She knows that all someone has to do is simply say I'm not killing it for that reason.

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I hate it. I don't want it inside me. So this bill does nothing. It's just grandstanding.

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Also, you have to perform testing to do those things.

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If you're already going to have an abortion, you're really not going to get those tests.

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Right. The craziest thing is that Kathy Herod, she knows. She knows these things.

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And she knows that all the mother has to do is say it's not because of that.

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I just want it dead. I just want to kill it. And then that's the end of it. More from Kathy.

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But there needs to be a victory presented, which is that we're protecting the lives of people with Down syndrome or CF or whatever.

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But not the healthy ones. We don't have enough courage to protect them. And that's the issue. We don't have enough courage to protect them.

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Well, and criminalizing it is going to protect them all.

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All of them. The ones with CF. And get this. This will make sense, too. Ready? This makes sense.

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And this isn't a play on words. Equal protection bill, like HB 2650, will protect all humans.

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Are you ready? Simply because they're human. Right. That is not a play on words.

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That's a fact. Because they're human, they will get equal protection. Simply because. There's no group.

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You don't have to be a part of a certain group to be protected. There's no way around it. There's no way to manipulate that.

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You're human. Equal protection. Just like we do not discriminate against individuals that are born because of their genetic condition or their disability, neither should we be discriminating against unborn children in the womb because of their genetic condition.

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Senate Bill 1457 also protects women that are considering an abortion from having their abortion pills sent to them by the mail.

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The abortion industry's lies, their deceptive tactics to say it's safe to send abortion pills, chemical abortion, medication abortion pills through the mail, totally disregards that a woman could have an ectopic pregnancy.

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She might not have an accurate reading on how far along her pregnancy is. It puts women's health and safety at grave risk.

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So all they have to do is simply go to an abortion facility. Not even go to Walmart.

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The whole point of that is to protect the woman still. That's exactly right. It's not even abortion.

38:53

It's about protecting the baby. It's about the potential risk of her being unattended and something going wrong because she is killing the baby inside of her and then birthing it.

39:06

Yeah. So you have different kinds of abortifacients. There's the ones you get at Target, the ones you get at Walmart, the ones you get at the grocery stores.

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My point is when you put a restriction on pills like this, they just go elsewhere.

39:20

That was my point. They will just go elsewhere. Like, for example, man,

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I really want to end this life, and so what do I do? I go to family planning down the street.

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I go to Planned Parenthood. I go to a KCA Women's Center. I'll just go there.

39:37

I'll just go there to get the pill. You haven't done anything to stop abortions via the pill. All you've said is that what, can't be shipped through the mail?

39:45

So just go elsewhere. What did you do to stop the abortifacient pill in Arizona, Kathy?

39:53

You didn't stop people from killing their babies via pills. They just now have to be inconvenienced a bit, make a little appointment, drive down the road, that sort of a thing.

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She didn't do anything. This isn't courage. And we know when women have an exam by the doctor, when they consider all the facts, that more are likely to choose life than abortion.

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Senate Bill 1457 also ensures that a woman who's having a surgical abortion will be asked whether her unborn child should be, whether she wants her unborn child cremated or interred.

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Now, if you think this sounds unusual, this is providing dignity to the unborn child. It will help mothers to stop and think, well, if their unborn child that they're aborting, if she has to decide whether they're interred or cremated, then that must be some sign of life.

40:41

As though she doesn't know? She's going into the abortion facility to end the life of her child.

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She knows what's growing in her. It's almost like there's also something happening here that's a subtle thing, but it's there, is that Kathy Harrod is acting as though women are completely ignorant, that they don't know that they have a baby growing inside of them, that they're females who are pregnant that don't know what's in there.

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They know. And they make the decision to go kill this child, and they do it all the time.

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And so she thinks, well, let's just have them have to bury this child to provide it some dignity. I have something better.

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It takes courage. How about we provide dignity and value for every human being in the womb from the start, and we don't allow them to be murdered in the first place?

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And of course, Kathy Harrod's main argument is, well, that won't pass the courts. Cowardice. Cowardice.

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That's what that is. Proof? Arizona already defies the courts and the federal government with marijuana.

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We already show that we have the power to do it. Yes, we can flex our state sovereignty and say we will do such and such even though there's federal law and court cases against it.

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We already have demonstrated this year. Arizona's now recreationally legal in Arizona, but there's federal law against it.

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There's court cases against it, higher than us, and we defy the courts. So we can do it, but it takes courage.

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It doesn't take as much courage to legalize recreational marijuana because you have the support of the populace.

42:08

Well, and you can't get it through the mail, but plenty of people are still going out and getting it. Yeah. They're like, bro, we're totally behind you,

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Ducey. We're behind you, legislation. We're behind you, bro. You know you have the support of the population when you're legalizing marijuana in defiance of the federal law and federal courts.

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You know you've got their support. It would take courage, which she does not have. It would take courage for you to actually say, you know what?

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We're going to do what's right and provide dignity for every child from conception. But instead she says, well, let's just say you have to at least bury the ones you kill.

42:41

How does that sound? Well, and we've talked a lot about this, but for those that haven't been a part of this conversation, there's a couple of things.

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One, Kathy would be the first to say that abortion will never end until Roe v.

42:53

Wade is overturned. So now at this point with this bill, if Roe v.

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Wade was overturned, which it's a court opinion, not a law, if it was overturned in the court system today, guess what?

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You could go kill your child still because of this bill. In Arizona because of her legislation. Yes, because of this bill specifically.

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So the mother could. It'd be illegal for the doctor, but the mother could go get an abortion, just couldn't have it shipped to her home.

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Kathy Harrod would be trying very hard to point at the current Arizona statute 13 -3603 that says abortionists can't kill their children if Roe was reversed tomorrow.

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Because she knows those laws exist, she would point to them, and I guarantee you if Roe was reversed tonight, not only would she have to struggle with the fact that her legislative work has actually legalized abortion in Arizona, like you can't kill a child that's this old or whatever.

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All of that's her legislation kind of work, the pro -life industry's legislation, so it keeps it legal after Roe, but I guarantee you, and that's why she left it in the books, 13 -3603, that Kathy Harrod would be pointing to Arizona statute 13 -3603 that criminalizes the abortionists the day after Roe was overturned.

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We don't need it overturned to establish justice. But if it was, I guarantee you she'd be pointing to the fact that, oh, it's against the law in Arizona right now.

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That's why she struck it also from the books for the mothers. So the second thing I was going to say, and again, we've talked about this, but I want to mention this for people that are new to this conversation.

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We would all agree after spending time with abortion mills that probably 99 % of the time women know exactly what they're doing when they're going in and having an abortion.

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There are the rare cases that these are the exceptions, that there may be young women, there may be girls, whatever, that are forced to do it.

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There may be a very rare strange case where she doesn't know what's happening. But the point is that this would go to the court.

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There would be a fair trial. If a woman was accused of having an abortion, it would have to go to trial.

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So people, I think, just assume that, well, if we completely legalize abortion, then all women, they're automatically going to jail or getting the death penalty or whatever.

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But that's not how it works. That's not how the law system works. So it's in the homicide code and there's a court case. Exactly, and she's not saying that.

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And so she wants to protect women. But the cases of what she's talking about are so rare, we can't put a legislation into place based on the exception.

45:25

It has to be based upon the rule. Well, and you want to know why I'm not confused about murder?

45:32

Because it's a part of the law. Yeah. And it's criminalized. Right. So if you really think women are so confused about what they're doing, go ahead and make it illegal to kill your baby.

45:43

And then they won't be confused. Call it murder. Right. It's human, guys. Yeah, exactly. Good point.

45:48

Hey, Arizona, here's the flag. These are humans. You can't kill them. It's murder. And now they know. So this is all, it's really important to point out that this has some serious feminist underpinnings.

46:03

Oh, absolutely. Which basically, so feminism is about equality, right?

46:08

So obviously we know today we have a very broken sexual ethic in our country.

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And to feminists, there is a deep inequality that lies just in sex in general, which is that a man can engage however he likes, and then he may walk away and never think about it again.

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That is the equality that's attempting to be achieved for women when they have an abortion because that's the inequality, right?

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The inequality is that a man may walk away just so you know. He's not free to walk away.

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We just have, we have, we bought the lie that he's free to walk away. No, he is still responsible to take care of his family.

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And if he takes it to court, he will. Right. And of course we would never, we would condemn such behavior on the part of men.

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But this is really what's happening here is that we are trying to create a reality where women can engage in sex however they like and then walk away without feeling anything.

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But hopefully, hopefully it's apparent that that is, it is, it's empty, it's wicked, we condemn it because they're attempting to achieve something that the

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Bible condemns anyway, which is that sex is just this like free thing that's supposed to happen between whoever is consenting.

47:40

We reject that. Like the whole, it may, that's another, the current sexual ethic is another philosophy that Christians need to be careful of because it really, especially those of us that, just in the past few generations that grew up in a world where there were no constraints on sexuality.

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But anyway, I digress. No, that's good. You brought up a great point, I think. Believe me, there's a lot of coward men that drop their ladies off to get an abortion.

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Guess what? They would also be guilty. Right. And that's what's important to mention. I'm glad you brought that up.

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We believe that men are also guilty. 100%. And I believe that men are guilty before God if they, if they,

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I mean, call me old fashioned. It's not old fashioned. Call me biblical. But if you have sex with a woman and then just leave and do nothing, you're not her husband, that's actually very serious.

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It's taken very seriously in the Bible. And so we just have trying to take the

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Bible and fit it in here somehow is how we've created this really messed up situation where men were doing the wrong thing by abandoning their families or women or whatever.

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And so then women were like, well, I also want to be equally as bad. And now we have Christians that are like, well, women should be allowed to be equally as bad.

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Women should be equal in sin. And it's like, man, what are we doing anymore?

49:18

What are we doing? We need Jesus in the gospel, faithful preaching. And we need people who are, it is when you say stuff that I'm saying right now, you will not be liked for it.

49:31

It is not popular. It is not, it is, it goes against the deceitful philosophies of the world.

49:40

So you should not be surprised for anyone who's listening. If you are a pro -life student, if you are a politician, whoever you may be, you do not need to be surprised if someone dislikes you for saying stuff that's true from the

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Bible. And we get that because we live in a world where you are actually praised for being held captive by philosophies, as long as they make you feel good.

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And so the reason we're here and talking about this is not so that we give you a philosophy that tickles your ears.

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We don't want you to be captive to philosophies. We want you to be captive to Christ.

50:26

Very good. One last thing here, and there's more we can do today. I think we've given enough.

50:32

I know we have an appointment to get to. Oh, okay. No, it's okay. It's totally fine. So I think we've talked about the nuts and bolts here.

50:40

Last part of this. Here we go. Senator Nancy Bartow, 16 state senators that are

50:46

Republican, 31 state representatives that are Republican who voted yes for life. And this is an important breakthrough.

50:53

A special thank you to Governor Ducey, of course, for, as always, following his pro -life beliefs in signing this bill.

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And thanks to all of you who prayed and who sent a message to the governor, to your senators, to your representatives in support of the bill.

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Thanks be to God. That's the one that we thank most of all. This is a victory that he has brought. Amen. That, for me, is the most concerning element of this.

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Let me read this, everyone, and we'll finish the show with this today. Isaiah chapter 10. That's the word of God.

51:43

You can't be talking about this is God's victory when you just made these fatherless children in Arizona pray.

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That's what you did. Kill the healthy ones, not the unhealthy ones. At least give them a burial after you kill them.

51:57

Let's write that iniquitous decree into law. Also, let me decriminalize it.

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Some mothers and fathers who kill their children will never be seen as guilty of a crime. That's an iniquitous decree.

52:08

And Kathy Herod, you wrote it. So God's word, what's it say to you? Woe to you.

52:14

You make these fatherless children pray. That's what you've done. Woe to you. So I think we need to get past…

52:20

Let me just end it with this. Oftentimes, as Christians, we say, hey, guys, when you're talking to the

52:25

Latter -day Saint, when you're talking to Jehovah's Witness, when you're talking to the Rosicrucian, when you're talking to the Christian scientist, you've got to get past the language barrier.

52:34

You've got to make sure that you don't just take at face value the word Jesus, the word

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God, the word cross, salvation, resurrection, Bible. You've got to get behind it and say, what are they saying?

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What do they really believe behind that word? They're speaking my language. We're speaking Christianese.

52:51

But do they mean what I mean when they're saying those things? And the truth is, you have to be willing, we have to be willing as Christians to do that with someone like Kathy Herod as well.

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She's the pro -life industry leader. She's trying to fight for life and all those things. But if you really get behind your language and say, well, what do you really believe about life?

53:07

What are you actually doing? When you're talking about praising God for this victory and He's the one that really brought it to us, what'd you do?

53:13

You decriminalized abortion in Arizona for women who killed their children. What'd you do? You made the healthy children pray.

53:20

You said that the genetic abnormalities, they should be protected. Again, it's irrelevant. Just get around it by saying

53:26

I want to kill them. But you made the healthy children pray with your iniquitous decree. That's what you did. You made these fatherless children pray.

53:32

You said, no, okay, we'll accept the fact that you killed the children, but at least give them the dignity of a burial. That's an iniquitous decree.

53:39

Kathy Herod, we see through it, and it's time for reformation. I pray that you repent. You'd be a great ally if you were on the side of Christ and Scripture and consistency.

53:50

You're not. Look, Jesus is going to establish justice in the world.

53:55

Abortion is going to end, and it's going to end, Kathy Herod, as a crime, whether you like it or not.

54:01

It'll be seen as a crime because that's what you do with crimes like murdering children. You call them crimes, and that's how it'll end.

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And so we pray for Kathy Herod that she'd get on the right side of this. We pray for Walt Blackman and, of course, all of our legislators that they would be courageous enough to do what's right before God and for the citizens of the state of Arizona.

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We pray for that in South Carolina as well. Join me next week, May the 4th, in South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina.

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Join me there at 10 a .m. and at the Capitol. That is Luke the Bear. Peace out.

54:33

That's Joy the Girl. See ya. I'm Jeff the Culminator Ninja. Make sure you share this episode. Let everybody know about it. Very important discussion to have. Thank you all so much for watching.