Women's Role In The Ministry Of God's Church (pt-2)

Please we'll need those tonight. We're looking at issues in God's Church. There's so many of them I'm quite convinced that Satan is alive and well because he attacks

God's ordained Institutions or organisms and so he'll attack the marriage he'll attack the government and he'll attack the church and one of the ways he attacks the church is

Direct assaults from the inside and direct assaults on the outside and tonight we want to look at this issue of men's roles and Women's roles, and then

I'll have a handout. I don't know if you know the Danvers Affirmation, but I'll hand that out and we'll kind of work through that as well.

We've looked at gay bishops Now we're going to look at women's and men's roles. We'll look at open theology in the weeks to come

We'll look at the Atonement. I want to do a night on Messianic Judaism a couple nights on music and Maybe if you have some suggestions you can email these as well

Last week we had my brother here preaching two weeks ago We just kind of did the intro and I said to some someone said to me afterwards.

We wanted some of the juicy stuff tonight Well, you just you know, we already knew what you taught two weeks ago

We want to get it basically what they were saying into the controversial stuff And so I don't know if it's controversial or not

It doesn't seem that controversial to me because it's just obvious in Scripture, but it's controversial when we want to try to buck the system

So we'll just see what the Bible teaches night and if you have a question as we go write it down because then we'll have some

Q &A at the end and if you want To stump the pastor at Q &A you can easily do so that's not hard at all as you know

But if you want to get some input, I'll try to to tell you either A from Scripture B from wisdom or C Just my own thoughts

All right. Number one. We looked at last week last time which was two weeks ago Is that scriptures can be our only authority?

They must be our only authority It is not the church you grew up in and it's not your grandmother and what she thought it is not anything except Are you willing to submit to God's Word and the answer is either yes or no?

Are you I could even push the envelope. Are you content to be under God's Word? and I said last time you'd be better be better be prepared to pay the price of being a

Obscurantist a bigot male chauvinist if you're a man a woman hater a dinosaur Who knows what because this is not what you're going to get on CNN or anyplace else

But I don't really care because morality is never determined by the majority true Remember years ago the moral majority.

We've got a lot of people. Therefore we establish morality and that's never the case Morality is established by God and God alone

And if the majority believes fine if the majority doesn't believe that's fine as well for us

We need to be God's Word lovers of God's Word and to be like Luther here.

I stand Believe God's Word help me. I can't do anything else Secondly and let's just turn there to be reminded because there's some new people here tonight

Let's turn to Galatians chapter 3 verse 28 men and women are equal in God's eyes

This is a non -negotiable We're only going to go by what the Bible says and secondly men and women are equal in God's eyes

Galatians 3 28 is the flag ship verse for this very thing We went through it last week and I just want to remind you

This is the verse that both sides will go to the side that says women should be pastors We'll go to this verse the side that says women should not be pastors should go to this verse and in a sense

I'm glad because we need to make sure that men and women are equal and I just want you to see

That the context here is not roles. The context here is not function

The context here is nothing except salvation in God's eyes Men and women before the fall and after the fall are made in his likeness and image

They are image bearers women are full image bearers as well as men Galatians 3 if you just go up a few verses from 28, let's just jump in at verse 25

But now that faith has come we are no longer under tutor that tutor was talked about in verse 24

Which was the law for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ He's talking to the whole

Church of Galatia men and women For all of you who were baptized into Christ That's a waterless baptism as well

We were baptized into his body placed in immersed into have clothed yourselves with Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek which were the two big barriers there.

There's neither slave nor free and there was a bunch of both There's neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

He doesn't say you are all one functionally He says you're a one in Christ. I mean, what's the difference if I'm in Christ and my wife is in Christ We're both in Christ.

There's no levels. So we looked at that last week We saw last week that women were supposed to get taught the law.

They were supposed to obey the Old Testament law If someone killed a woman and killed a man there would be not a less punishment because a woman was killed

It was the same punishment women true or false could take Nazarite vows True in Numbers chapter 6 a whole chapter in the

Old Testament was talking about praiseworthy women and they were to be praised What chapters that? Proverbs 31 that's exactly right true or false spiritual gifts were given to women and men true

True or false the Holy Spirit at Pentecost fell on both men and women true

We looked at Romans chapter 16 where many women were praised by Paul for their service

Also, we saw last week that number three although different, excuse me Although equal in Christ men and women have different roles

They have or different roles in the home and now they have different roles in the church Last week.

We saw that men and women Have even different titles women are called true or false helpers

Back in the garden is helper derogatory term when God said I'm going to make you Adam from your side a helper

Is that a word that's kind of? squashing women and putting her down Yes, or no

No, why is that? What was the main reason? Because God was called the helper. That's exactly right.

It's just a different function we also looked at Submission was not bad and let matter of fact

Let's let's look at this a little bit more 1st Corinthians chapter 11 Some people just can't get that word out of their mind that if women are supposed to submit

To their husbands and that's somehow horrible Submission we all have to submit to the government's we all have to submit to the elders

We have to submit in a lot of different areas and submission does not mean it is bad It does not mean inferiority.

It does not mean second -class citizenship It does not mean your dignity and honor have been ripped out from underneath you does not mean that at all

And look at 1st Corinthians chapter 11 how we can prove this point is that Christ submitted to the father and was he somehow

Less than God. No, he was equal with God 1st Corinthians chapter 11 verse 2

Now I praise you because you remember me and everything and holding firmly to the traditions just as I delivered them to you

Paul's not talking about traditions of things made up. He's talking about their tradition traditions that he taught them

Hey Church at Corinth. I've taught you these things hold firmly to them

I'm praising you for that, but verse 3 I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man

Would anybody have a problem with that? Christ is the head of the church No and that the man is the head of the woman and so we just kind of freak out sometimes in Evangelicalism today because it sounds so strange and God is the head of Christ No distinction there in terms of God, the

Father has more worth than God the Son, right? Somehow God the Son is is not as is important No, not at all

But the fact remains that God in this plan as the son submits to the father wives submit to their husbands

I can further prove it by verse 7 if you'd like to look at that of the same chapter 1st

Corinthians 11 For man ought not to have his head covered since he's the image and glory of God But the woman is the glory of man verse 8 for man does not originate from woman

But woman from man and again equal in Christ, but just different roles For indeed man was not created for the woman's sake but woman for the man's sake and again, that is not bad

That's just a fact Let me read you a few verses from the book of John to just show you how submission is still fine

It's godly to do Jesus obeyed when he submitted in other words John 4 34 My food is to do the will of him who sent me and accomplish his work

John 5 30 I can do nothing on my own initiative as I judge as I here I judge and my judgment is just because I do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me how about Philippians chapter 2 when

God the Son cloaked himself with humanity and came became low for us and Submitted to the father's plan.

Was that somehow making him less valuable of a person? Answer. Well, absolutely not

But trouble comes in with sin Let's go to Genesis chapter 3 if you don't understand Genesis, it's hard to understand any of the

Bible But here's what happens with your Christian life. You either underdo things or overdo them or both

So if the husband has headship he either capitulates to the wife and lets her lead or he's an ogre and He dominates unbiblically and if there are the woman's roles here in marriage at least the context you either

Do one of two things and this is exactly Part of the curse look at Genesis chapter 3 verse 16

And if this doesn't make you want to be in heaven one day where there's no sin, I don't know what will

How great is this gonna be? Everybody's role is gonna be fine To the woman he said

I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth In pain you shall bring forth children.

And do you know that is biblically true and ladies experientially true Yes Yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you

This is remember in the context of the curse. This is not a good thing Oh, I desire my husband because I love him

This is a negative thing where I desire my husband because I want to be over him and he's gonna rule over you

But you want to rule over him Look to the next chapter for the same word in a negative context

Genesis chapter 4 verse 7 The next time this word is used in Genesis in the

Hebrew is In Genesis 4 7 if you do well, he's talking to Cain Will you not your countenance be lifted up?

And if you do not do well sin is crouching at the door and its desire is for you, but you must master it

So what happens we have the Bible as our authority women and men are equal in Christ's sight

But there are different kind of roles and one of those roles of submission and leadership that role gets messed up because of sin

So that was just kind of an introduction now Let's go to five key passages for men's roles and women's roles in the church and why they're different How we're equal in Christ but different matter of fact, let's do it this way who can give me some before we start

It's Sunday night. It's a long day. It's rainy I hope you had a good cup of tea by the fire this afternoon and read some and got a nap

Give me some passages that would tell us that there are different roles in the church for men and women

Or why sometimes the Bible just says well only men should do that who could give me a few Well, either everyone's shy or everything.

I'm going to tell you now is going to be new to you And I don't think that's the case either. Let's just maybe kind of go through it.

Let's go to first Timothy chapter 3 first Timothy chapter 3 and I just want to prove to you from Scripture that Men should be elders and pastors and women should not why because men are better.

No, absolutely not This is just what God says if you are a colonel in the army and Private comes to you.

He will report to you with rank and function, but he was not somehow worse than you are first Timothy chapter 3

By the way, you want to know why the Episcopal Church is having all these problems these days with gay bishops I'll tell you why because they've capitulated to the modern age thinking and they've said we don't really care what the

Bible says and they Proved it because 20 years ago. What did they say about men's roles and women's roles in the church? There are no different roles men and women are equal

It doesn't always happen. But when you compromise on the word, what else is left first Timothy chapter 3

She's gonna make it super fast. We at this church know this and here's my bet I'm betting you know all this and you just want me to get to the end to find out if a woman can teach

Sunday School or not that kind of thing. So let's just let's just get through all that and get right to the questions. I Do want to come

I hit a few and by the way, I'm doing this in a very pedantic Didactic teaching style because maybe some of you will use these tapes or maybe some of you have been exposed to this only for the first Time and it's one thing just to get the

Bible out and say here bottoms up open wide It's another just to get Walked through the

Bible and what I want to do is have you to be in a corner and say uncle If the by the

Bible teaches that men's roles and women's roles are different I either either can accept it or I don't accept it

It's not because there's some weird doctrine. That's you know, the church has been divided on for all these years First Timothy 3 is a trustworthy statement if any man aspires to the office of overseer is a fine work

He desires to do an overseer then must be above reproach overseer presbyter elder pastor same difference

The husband of one wife now if you don't want me to argue for the words man there in verse 1

I don't have to because it's not necessarily a Greek word man Are he and all the personal pronouns a husband of one wife has to be a what?

Man Elders have to be men. Let's go to the next book 2nd

Timothy It is part of my job as well as the other elders to hand down the truth to other men to lead

It's just what we're supposed to do and we'll look at what ladies are supposed to do In just a minute if we didn't have the dear ladies at our church serving

We would be in bad shape. I must say though that I'm very glad that not only do the women serve here

But we have some men who serve It is one of the poor reflections on a dying church is when the women do everything in the church and the men don't because they're too afraid they're too

Shy or they're too ungodly and they just don't do anything. I Always tell many their leader be led

Okay, 2nd Timothy chapter 2 verse 1 you therefore my son Paul talking to Timothy be strong in the grace

It is in Christ Jesus and the things that you have heard from me So Paul the Timothy in the presence of many witnesses in trust of faithful what and faithful who?

Men who will be able to teach others also you maybe even never thought about that verse that way the elders have been taught by the

Apostolic messengers the scriptures are Paul in this case. They're to teach other men who can then teach other men

They're not supposed to teach women Of course, they're to teach women but they're to disciple men and trade them up for the leadership of the church

All right, what's the book that follows 2nd Timothy? Titus let's go there Titus chapter 1 verse 6

We're gonna look at five key passages and then we'll look at some some things that women do do in the church

All right Titus 1 6 very simply it's the same qualifications except this is for a new church 1st

Timothy was to an established church at Ephesus and Paul says you need to get elders Titus is here on Crete and it's a brand new church and he says the same thing

To Titus you need to get elders Titus 1 6 namely if any man be above reproach the husband of one wife

That's just what the text says. You can get a gender -neutral Bible and they can you know pervert the words

But this is still what the text says and means and then lastly in this one I'm saving the big guns for the end

Turn to 1st Timothy chapter 2 for the fourth key passage and then we'll get to 1st

Corinthians chapter 14, which is an amazing Section of Scripture as well. I know we're bouncing around but that's okay 1st

Timothy chapter 2 by the way, why was 1st Timothy written? It's pastoral pistol how to act what according to chapter 3 verse 15 how to act in the

Church in the church. That's right. And so how do we act in the church? First Timothy 2 9. Let's look at the ladies here first.

Likewise. I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing Modestly and discreetly not with braided hair and gold and pearls or costly garments

In other words just have control over what you wear and you're in this not for just your own looks and what people think about you

But this is a worship service and you want to don't want to distract and be a show -off kind of thing Don't flaunt your wealth verse 10, but rather by means of good works as befits women making a claim to godliness

It is righteousness and godliness that we want in ladies, of course Then it says in verse 11 remember the context of the local church

Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness now in our society Here's what we're going to do and I'll tell you why it's so important to study culture in our society

Everybody's gonna go. Oh, I was okay so far. Hold on Nelly. Stop the phones call the press

I mean, whatever you say, I don't want to do that. But think about what Paul's trying to say in those days

The women were looked down upon when it comes to teaching them You wanted them barefoot and pregnant is what you wanted them and you didn't want to teach him the men were the learners and the women

Were not taught MacArthur says in a study

Bible that was a novel concept since neither first century Judaism nor Greek Celtic culture held women in high esteem

Here, what is he saying? It is a command you teach those ladies. This is not somehow squashing women

This is saying the women need to be taught if you're a New Testament elder you better teach ladies

Let them learn it is a command you bishop you teacher you elder you presbyter you teach the ladies

Here, they're taught Let them a little woman quietly receive instruction you teach them, but how are they to receive it with entire submissiveness?

Verse 12. I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man But to remain quiet talking about women's roles in the church

Now you can study this on your own, but technically here's what he's after He's after a woman not to be a teacher like a pastor teacher like an elder

He's not saying a woman. You can't teach a Sunday school a woman. You can't teach other women and or anything else

He's after that that official office of to be the teacher that function of the church.

That's teaching He's not saying women can never teach Because we know women did teach other places

For what reason why is she to remain quiet in public worship and not teach? Well, it says it in verse 13.

I mean, I'll never forget it as long as I live I came to this church and someone said to me I want to be a

Bible teacher at this church and I want to read scripture from this pulpit I can read scripture better than you can And I said well and I was trying to be nice and I said well that's you know what the culture teaches these days and and and I understand that but These two verses in the

Bible 1st Timothy chapter 2 verse 13 and 14 make it clear that this is not a cultural issue And she said to me.

Well, I can still read the Bible better than you can. I Said I'm not debating that I some of you ladies as you correct my diction and my syntax as I get going too fast

You could probably speak better than I can but that's not the issue That went on for a long time

Debating whether she could read scripture from the pulpit or whether she couldn't and I was very loving and went on for years and one day

I had to say you show me from the scripture and I'll let you do that to this

Sunday Well the culture in our society and it kept going on and on I said, please from the text and she couldn't do it

So she got all mad and started to cause a fuss and she came back again and said I want to read scripture I want to read

Psalm 103 from the pulpit So I finally had to say now remember this was not you know mean

Mike you come into my office and I'm like just get Out of my face. Here's a Bible verse I mean this was this was I was trying to hang in there.

And so I finally said over my dead body What am

I going to do? Just say okay. I know that's what the Bible teaches but go ahead because you pester me all day

This is the text and it cuts through culture like a knife Everybody's asking questions.

Hey, who is it B? Are they still at the church a I'm not telling you and B. They're not at the church

You either submit to God's Word or you don't I don't know what to tell you I've changed many many views even in the last six years, but I want them from scripture

Creation order number one. Look at verse 13 This is why it's not cultural for it was

Adam who was first created and then Eve and you see the connector there for This has nothing to do with what people like to tell us

There was the fall and the fall created these divisions and functional differences false

It was God's perfect design before the fall man, then woman to help equal yet different It's okay to be different.

Aren't you glad by the way on a side note that you're different than your spouse? That's that whole thing. We've talked about many times on Sunday night

You get the brand new married couple and they're oh We're so compatible and we're compatible and we're comfortable and all these kind of things and we like everything the same

I go you're gonna have another thing coming in about ten years. We love all the stuff that same that's fine, and I'm glad but in many years you're gonna say

I rejoice in the fact that You like things I don't like and vice versa and I've appreciated that I don't really like classical music at all before I met

Kim and She had this kind of subliminal classic music tape that you play all the time for me first got married

And so you enjoy that you you embrace the differences and say that's fine it's okay to be different Different hormones different body shapes to all different things.

It's okay Secondly verse 14 why women should not be elders because of the fall

Creation order number one secondly the fall and it was not Adam who was deceived. Tell me about that Why was

Adam not deceived? What did he do instead of being deceived? What did he do? He sinned deliberately

Listened to his wife and so he he advocated the leadership role that God had given. Yes, Lewis He was in charge and That's right.

That's exactly right That's right. So here it says it was not

Adam who deceived but the woman being quite deceived fell into transgression So God says because of the fall and the creation order.

I don't want to have men And women have equal functions I'm gonna have men be leaders

Okay now fifthly save your questions. We'll get to them to the end Let's turn to 1st Corinthians chapter 14. If you think it's hot in here now, just wait till we go through this

Here's where it gets hot I have many many charismatic friends and I'm not going to be picking on charismatics now

But I want to press them to the text. That's why by the way, I love Wayne Grudem so much If I'm a charismatic, you know,

I'm gonna be studying Wayne Grudem and Gordon Fee because those men deal with the text

God told me so is not gonna deal with it and not gonna do it. But those men study I commend them for that but look at verse 34 of the 14th chapter 1st

Corinthians 14. Remember this was not a very good church Paul was trying to deal with the issues and he was giving them a

Chastening letter he's correcting their behavior and I want to give you now this verse that we have to deal with again

First Corinthians 14 34 let the women keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak

But let them be subject themselves just as the law also said says You just read those verses and you just think again in our evangelical culture today people don't like that Now I always ask you this question.

You can say it out loud. What is the context of 1st Corinthians chapter 14? speaking in tongues

Hmm, let's find out Let's go back up a little bit verse 26. I call this

Roberts rules of order for speaking in tongues That's exactly what it is.

Except it's not Roberts It's Paul's some people say well, I don't like Paul. Well, Paul is inspired by the

Holy Spirit So whether you got a red letter Bible or a black letter Bible, it's all from God Can't get off the hook by saying well

Paul wrote this and he didn't know 1st Corinthians chapter 14 verse 26 First of all for edification tongues are for edification.

What is the outcome then 1st Corinthians 14 26? Let's just go back up a ways when you assemble each one has a psalm has a teaching has a revelation has a tongue has an

Interpretation let all things be done for edification So the first thing he says is everything must be done for the good of the body

Do I believe in speaking in tongues? Certainly they spoke in tongues then the issue is are they for today?

But that's not the issue of this text. So let's stay within the text Verse 27 if anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be here.

Here comes more rules first ones edification Second of all if anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be done by two or at the most how many?

Three here comes some more rules and each in turn and here's another rule and let one interpret

Let one and only one so if there's going to be a public worship service For the

Corinthian Church and there's going to be tons tongue -speaking first of all it has to be done for edification Well, no, there needs to be an interpreter because if you can't understand what's going on that will not edify you

I guarantee you I can prove it another way if you can't speak Japanese and you're down in the dumps

Don't buy a how -to -speak Japanese tape Just hold your questions and we'll get there don't buy a how -to -speak

Japanese tape and put it on because you don't understand it So here we are in verse 27

No more than three one at a time and there must be an interpreter. So you need to have edification and he just lines up the rules

What does he say furthermore verse 28, but if there is no interpreter, what should you do since we're all about edification?

Let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God So he's talking about order

He keeps going verse 29 let two or three prophets speak and let others pass judgment

And there's something that's very important because you need to distinguish the spirits are they have God or are they not?

They didn't have the Canon then Verse 30, but if a revelation is made to another who is seated let him keep first silent

For you can all prophesy one by one so that all may learn and all may be exhorted In other words it is wrong to say the

Holy Spirit took over and I have no self -control and I just had to go into something because the

Spirit was leading me. No, he says one by one. So all may learn and all may be exhorted

You can't say I can't restrain myself because it's the Spirit of God who did it They're even subject look at verse 32 and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets

Verse 33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace as is excuse me as in all the churches of the

Saints now Whether speaking in tongues are for today or for not today, and if that's a question later we can talk about it

But here's my issue. What is the context of women speaking in the church are not speaking in the church? tongues

This is amazing in the context of tongues He says let the women keep silent in the churches for they're not committed permitted to speak but let them subject themselves

Just as the law also says Say, I don't know if I go for that verse 35 and if they desire to learn anything let them ask their own husbands at home for it is improper for a woman to speak in church

And Paul does something here that you just never see him do practically he goes you disagree with me

Then you're conceited verse 36 was it from you that the Word of God first came forth

You think you're gonna change the rules now, so you're the one who speaks for God. I was it only come to you only

And he does something here. He says you're not only conceited. You're not scriptural verse 37 if anyone thinks he's a prophet or spiritual let him recognize that the thing which

I write to you are the Lord's Commandment you're going against God He goes further. He says, but if anyone does not recognize this he's not recognized sit down Shut up, and don't talk

Then he says something else verse 39 therefore my brethren desire earnestly to prophesy and do not forbid to speak in tongues

It's a legitimate gift. Don't do that, but there are orders and rules now Here's what I do want to say back up to the verse 34

Whatever else this is talking about it is talking about the role of tongues when ladies are speaking.

Let me read you one commentary Whatever else this refers to at least it refers to the exercise of the gift of tongues and prophecy

For this in the is the context in which this command is given realizing Evidently the storm of protest this command would receive

Paul follows it with the statement of authority in verses 36 through 38 end quote in other words

The onus is not on me. I think the onus is on you when you say, okay, let's say tongues are for today

Secondly, let's say tongues are for today But more than two or three say them without interpretation and also another warning should go off in your mind when ladies

Speak in tongues in a worship service. Is that not the context is that the context that is?

So when there's no order when there's no more than two or three when they're not taking turns when there's no interpreter

And then when there is a lady doing it, I just have to say show me from the scriptures

I'm willing to learn I have not arrived, but that's the context of the passage All right, hold your questions.

We're gonna get there. I'm not trying to duck and jive you let's keep going I'm trying to duck you for just a few minutes till I keep going and I'm trying to jive you

Okay, remember the issue is women's roles. You say what should a lady do? Is there something a lady should do?

Well, let's turn to Titus chapter 2 a lady should use her spiritual gifts Of course, and we are all recipients here at this church of wonderful women serving aren't we?

I mean Can you imagine if you're just all men at this church? That would be a sorry state

Right Bob Titus chapter 2 they should use their

God -given gifts Titus chapter 2 verse 3 What here's a here's an example

I'm not gonna give you every example, but just a few older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior Not malicious gotten as malicious gossips not enslaved to much wine teaching.

What is good? What should they do in a local church that they may encourage the young women to a love their husbands

How grand is that to love their children? To be sensible pure workers at home kind being subject to their own husbands

Why because it's a whim know that the Word of God may not be dishonored Can women lead yes other ladies children, of course

Go to first Timothy chapter 5 if you would the chapter 2 2 books before that Let me show you what it's like to be an older woman.

And here's what you should live your life for women Of course should serve teach

Last verses and then we're gonna get to the questions So hold on first Timothy 5 9 let a widow be put on the list

Only if she is not less than 60 years old having been the wife of one man So they had lists back then and that this list was this lady can't take care of herself

She's not married and the church should support her but she can only be supported if she's doing these things Having a reputation verse 10 of good works

And if she has brought up children if she has shown hospitality to strangers She has washed the Saints feet if she has assisted those in distress if she's her devoted devoted herself to every good work

What a great ministry that women can have and should have and I praise God at this church. We do have that Verse 11, but refused to put younger widows on the list for many many reasons

So should women serve the answer as we know at this church, yes All right. Now, let's get to some questions before I get to my questions

I'm going to ask you to give me your questions. But before we do that number one I want to say ahead of time.

This is very complicated And so when you answer these questions even in your own mind, I want you to use this grid

What does the scripture say? What does wisdom say? And what do I desire right?

That's biblical decision -making Scripture Wisdom wisdom can be from two places praying to God for wisdom asking from other godly people for wisdom and then desire

And it's always that way and if Cheryl and I talked last two weeks ago I think it's imperative for a pastor or the elders to say this is what the

Bible says and This is my wisdom about that because a lot of times there's there's not a verse in the

Bible women can't be ushers, right? I Can't tell you this is what the scripture says So I have to give you my wisdom and you need to be careful when you receive

Wisdom from people who were in authority that you know that it's wisdom and it's not scriptural And that's big if you ever do

Counseling and you counsel other ladies or you counsel other men you need to tell them This is God's Word and you must do it or sin

It's sin and then you step over here and say but the Bible doesn't tell us exactly what to do here

But here's what I would do and here's what I've seen done in the past So that's one thing secondly

When you study this on your own try to determine what is prescriptive What does the Bible prescribe and tell you what to do and what is descriptive because I know

I'm gonna get the question What about Deborah? What about some of the daughters and those kind of things and we'll get those and again?

I'm I don't know all the answers but I think it is clear in terms of leadership in terms of men's roles and women's roles and Okay, so I've got my questions, but I'm not gonna do them

Let's take the question over here first, and then we'll work our way around Yes, that's a great question and that fits right in with tonight that's excellent

I'll back off the question and come back to it. It's very interesting. What would you do with this one now? Let me ask you a question

I came from a church where of course a man would preach John MacArthur would preach and there were several deaf people in the congregation

This was a church of 10 ,000 and so let's say there's 50 deaf deaf people. Would you allow a woman to?

Interpret with sign language was the ASL is that what's called or if you were sitting there?

And if let's say if you were a man would you feel odd? I mean, I don't know the answer necessarily, but this is very difficult.

Isn't it so the text doesn't say? Who the interpreters were and why and if God in his?

Sovereign hand gave that woman a gift of interpretation. I wouldn't have a problem with it. There's the text doesn't tell me

Yes, yes

That's okay, yes, let me read

I'm sorry was that a okay

Excellent point certainly he used Deborah he used Anna there. There are other ladies that he used and can

God use women. Yes Let me before I forget let's go back to that interpreter even though I think

God could have an interpreter be a lady I'm not so sure he would in the corporate context of 1st Corinthians chapter 14

It doesn't say that's just my opinion if I had to you know, he pushed me up to all I'd say Well since it's the men if my interpretation is right that only men should

Speak in tongues, then it would be right that a man would interpret So if I had to guess that's what I would guess that the text doesn't say

Secondly, I would say that men that women are used by God to speak and that is a great example

Let me ask another question along the same thing Could David be a

New Testament Church elder David the King? David the King Why not he was a man after God's own heart

He wrote all the Psalms a lot of Psalms to strike that in the right all of them So even though God in his sovereign choice can use in Luke chapter 2 a lady to speak for him

And I'm not equating the two don't don't don't take this off the tape He can use he could use a child and he could use a donkey.

He could use a man, right? He can use anybody he wants to speak for him still That to me doesn't prove that women should be elders and pastors because of just like David couldn't be in that position

She's a woman so she can't be a New Testament elder because of the qualifications in first Timothy chapter 3

So I'm fine for a woman speaking for God and his good divine pleasure when she does that in the

Luke chapter 2 That's a good question.

The answer is yes, and here's my illustration when God is speaking to me through a woman Will I accept the authority initially?

Sometimes I don't want to but eventually I will and now some of the people are saying where's pastor coming God speaks through my wife a lot of times

Now I don't want to pull this into an issue of is the cannon open or closed and does God still speak today or not?

Because we're never gonna get finished, but at least at the church. We don't believe that God still speaks outside of Scripture.

So in my Thinking when when Kim quotes to me the Bible and says honey

You know you you ought not to do that you're to rejoice always Quit moping around and the

Bible says to rejoice and you're to count it all joy Am I to receive that my flesh sometimes doesn't want to my flesh could say don't you tell me what to do?

I'm in charge around here. I know Greek. You don't know you know I Could do that, but God's Word is real powerful, and it usually ends up convicting.

Maybe not immediately, but as time goes on So can women speak and men should recognize the authority as they speak

God's Word certainly although That's not in the context of a local church because now we're not all here worshiping And if I asked my wife to get up and speak for God now

The elders would stop me, but also my wife wouldn't do it because it's the New Testament Church setting so good insight good questions

Bruce Yes Yes, let's close in prayer

I Would do the same thing I would say that when God wants to especially before the canon was closed

Especially in terms of before Matthew was written the first New Testament book written Excuse me first New Testament gospel the first New Testament book was probably a

James But as the canon think about it was there more of a need for God to speak through people to people

Before the canon was complete now. We have the canon so we don't have to go around all the time saying

God speak to us By the way wouldn't that have been an interesting time to live in you know what

God has said? But you know he's going to say more so you're always looking out there who was really speaking for God And who wasn't just think about it if Revelation chapter 22 hadn't been written and the canon hadn't been closed and everything else had happened

We'd be wandering around thinking. I wonder who's speaking for God talk about Google searches, and I'd want to know

God's speaking. I want to know because I want to obey him But in the time before the

New Testament canon was complete and Malachi had ended in that time You'll see a flurry of activity where God would use people like that in The time of transition and so what

I would say there is even though God decided to do that that is not the norm It's not normative And I know it's not normative because Paul through the

Spirit of God writes first Timothy chapter 3 and says this is what we do in the church Secondly we don't need that anymore because if someone comes to me and says

God told me something Then I confirm it with the word because I think the can's closed I don't believe in the word of wisdom or ongoing revelation some do but So some of these exceptions

And that's why I kind of almost sandbag you ahead of time and said prescription versus description a description of what has happened in the

Old Testament are new Old Testament all old covenant in the sense pre -presurrection It's okay if God wants to do that, but they couldn't be a

New Testament elder. I know that Okay, I think we have another one Karen Yes, okay, well other 15 year old boys in the room

Okay, other 15 year old boys in the room, and maybe adult males in the room But let's talk about this one because this is bound to come up when should a woman stop teaching

Men are young men in the church. I don't mean at home when when Patrick comes home, and you've learned some brand -new

Bible doctrine and Patrick's how old now 25 pardon Yeah, 25 is it okay for a mother to teach her son something about the

Bible. I Can't believe it. I just realized God's sovereign and everything including the weather and you know on off you go

I think that's acceptable, but remember the local church context rules and so What I would do is even though the text doesn't say anything about well

What about these pair of church organizations and get -togethers? I would say this that At least

Jewishly speaking 13 might be a good place to start What we do at the church is we don't have any hard and fast rules, but at junior high level and above we prefer

Men that teach other men a because of modeling be because you got to draw the line somewhere Like baptism of children what a horrible sticky issue that is for local church

Because I can't put it. You know I can't put a number on it because then you're gonna say well Jonathan Edwards There's a girl underneath this ministry at four years old

She got saved But I have to put some number on it because you can't bring to me your 19 month old kid to get baptized by immersion

I guess you could bring him but So it's very difficult, so here's what

I would say. I would say that in the church here. We prefer junior high And older to be taught by men, and so I think 15

I think especially in this culture of the Bible you were a man The society knew you were a man, so I think that's just a good average

Thirteen and older and so if I was that young lady, and I would say no. Thank you I just don't think that's right to be teaching in this public setting.

It's not in the local church But there was nothing else back in those days. You didn't have navigator campus crusade intervarsity

You didn't have child evangelism and all these other organizations that are good. We just didn't have those so Paul didn't address those

For instance let's go let's go farther Elizabeth Elliot Write the chapter in this book. I like Elizabeth Elliot because she's gonna be a stickler for God's work

She'll teach men in the local church, and she'll say she's underneath the authority of elders that she teaches them

And I just think she ought not do that because first Timothy is clear on not teaching men so I Don't know if I answer your question, but I would just say

I don't think I'd like to do that Jonah okay, that's a good point.

Let's use an example can ladies Evangelize men how do you know that okay?

Let's go there. Let's look that up quickly Boy time just zooms by Acts chapter 18 verse 24

By the way, I've been preaching now for about 45 minutes And so if you need to go and you need to pick up your kids just go ahead

We're not going to point at you or laugh at you or anything so you're out of the building, but if you'd If you need to go you can go and so we're just going to talk about this a little bit more

I don't want to have another part for this I cannot be exhausted in all my questions, and that's why this book is going to help you

But we do want to answer just a few more questions. I'll go from maybe another 10 minutes That's chapter 18 verse 24 now certain

Junian to Paulus and Alexandrian by birth an elephant man came to Ephesus And he was mighty in the scripture to me the

Bible which battle is that well? You know it's the Old Testament First 25 this man had been instructed in the way of the

Lord being fervent in spirit He was speaking and teaching actor concerning Jesus being acquainted only with the baptism of John He was not a

Christian even though he knew all these things He began to speak up boldly in the synagogue

But when Priscilla and Aquila heard them they took him aside and explained them the way of God more accurately you don't need the baptism of John that you're

Repenting from the Jewish lifestyle at the time We need a different kind of baptism that baptism is you believe in Christ and you're baptized

To show what's happened in your heart kind of thing when he went wanted to go across to a cave

The brethren encouraged him and I went to the tablets to welcome him etc. Etc. And then he demonstrated at birth 28

That was something different that Jesus Christ. It was in fact the Messiah from the scripture So I think if you've got a woman in this church

And you've got an authority figure over you there's a man you can preach the gospel to them, right, of course

Okay more Well Number one

If your marriage is good or bad, it's the husband responsibility, right? Everybody contributes to the problem, but God doesn't go to those people

Right the American submarine by Hawaii comes up and dumps over Japanese fishing boat

Who forgot to do all the coordinating things? No, it wasn't but the people on his watch were and so the husband and wife come in accounting and you say to them

Who is the leader of this family the husband says I am by because the scripture say then you are the one responsible 50 -50 in terms of relationship and there's no role in the role, but for leadership, it's 100 %

So in a sense, ladies, isn't it nice that if you have a husband and he's a

Christian, he doesn't always make the right decisions But you say I've given my input I prayed for him. I told him what the

Bible says and we talked about it He's gonna determine something else Lord Wash my hands between you and him

Same thing with the church, right? I know everybody agrees with all the decisions the elders make, but that's when submission comes in I disagree with all these decisions, but submission means

I disagree and I'm going to keep on going And God, I know you're going to hold me as an elder in the temple one day in judgment and I'm glad it's not me

I don't even really like that, I can't even go in my own life sometimes, right?

I'm going to stand in front of God So leadership, if you're a woman, you should say

I'm thankful Aren't you glad you don't have to run the country? I'm going to submit to the president and say God, I'm going to submit to the president

And that you're going to have to deal with him for those decisions that I make It's just none of the same That is a great idea

What do you do if a woman gets elected as president? Would you rather submit politically to Maggie Thatcher or Tony Blair?

You know, Tony Blair sings more along the same lines, at least in the war stuff What do you do? In old days it was a shame for Israel to have a woman leader

And there was a judgment about it, and if you don't believe me, I don't mean you Isaiah 3, 12

All my people, they're oppressed as our children, and the women rule over them You want judgment? You're not going to follow me,

Israel? I'll judge you and your women will rule over you That's right

Since we aren't Israel and since we don't have to have the same paradigm If Hillary Clinton becomes president, we should do this

We should do this Even though she would not be my choice for president We, supporting

Roma chapter 13, have to not say bad things about her We can talk about policy, but nothing bad about the person

And we have to submit to her, and we have to pray for her We have to praise

God for the only girl that might be facing me

We could be doing something that God has encouraged So we should submit to that leader, whatever that might be

Do you like Ted Pennington? He's good

He's not very good

That was one of my questions If you're a man and you have a woman that you support to at work Are you able to do that?

Certainly if she's an authority, if you like to pay If your conscience not let you, then you're going to have to get her up I think it's more difficult, probably, for a man to submit to a woman

Because it's just some of the works of God's natural laws And so it just makes society more difficult

To have to submit to a woman who would be a boss Or the boss, or a boss's boss, or a boss's boss

Even if it's a pervert You're a man, and the conscience is killing him

You've got a woman's office, and a man's office I don't know

I mean, you've got to show yourself

And you've got to submit to them to do that But what do you do if someone wants to submit to you that's difficult?

Working outside the home of a married woman

In other words, it's just too much money if you're a woman to work outside the home

If there's a home there, it's a home In other words You have your relationship with the

Lord Your husband, the kids, the home If you can take care of all of that in the work

For instance, please ask the mother She lives a prosperous life She has an iron and she's got a house

It's not always wrong, but if you have your relationship with the husband And the home environment, and the home environment

Then you are in a position to live by that She's an ambassador at work

And we've been in Israel together before And in mixed groups

We did have someone come to the church We had prayer topics Where we stood up in the middle of it

And we stood up I'm not coming back

It's a picture of Christ in front of me It's a picture of the Holy Spirit It's something

I had to figure out And watch it

Because it's very difficult to look at it from that point

How does the ministry work? You can go farther than that What do you do if you're a

Christian? If you want to talk to your husband? If you want to speak to him?

It's the past two things But all of a sudden, the past is gone

We are so busy I love this It's very, very difficult

So what about reading prayers? If you're a Christian It's not reading the comments

It's not reading anything that we do

The guys and the pastor

Any place you might be, pick the right guy And let's figure out the small details And if you have your husband

And you want to have your husband And they don't We don't know how to do this

But we do know how to do this I'm going to say this

These are the kind of things That I'm going to spend the rest of the month

At the bottom of the page I'm going to throw it out And I'm going to put it back And I'm going to say, well

I'm not going to watch this Because we have to do this

Because we have to do this Because we have to do this

Because we have to do this Because we have to do this Because we have to do this Because we have to do this Because we have to do this