Women's Role In The Ministry Of God's Church (pt-2)

Please we'll need those tonight.

We're looking at issues in God's Church.

There's so many of them I'm quite convinced that Satan is alive and well because he attacks

God's ordained Institutions or organisms and so he'll attack the

marriage he'll attack the government and he'll attack the church and one of the ways he attacks the church is

Direct assaults from the inside and direct assaults on the outside and tonight.

We want to look at this issue of men's roles and women's roles, and then I'll have a handout.

I don't know if you know the Danvers Affirmation, but I'll hand that out and we'll kind of work through that as

well.

We've looked at gay bishops.

Now we're going to look at women's and men's roles.

We'll look at open theology in the weeks to come.

We'll look at the Atonement.

I want to do a night on Messianic Judaism a couple nights on music

and.

Maybe if you have some suggestions you can email these as well.

Last week we had my brother here preaching two weeks ago.

We just kind of did the intro and I said to some someone said to me afterwards.

We wanted some of the juicy stuff tonight.

Well, you just you know, we already knew what you taught two weeks ago.

We want to get it basically what they were saying into the controversial stuff.

And so I don't know if it's controversial or not.

It doesn't seem that controversial to me because it's just obvious in Scripture, but it's controversial when we want to try to buck the

system.

So we'll just see what the Bible teaches tonight and if you have a question as we go write it down because then we'll have some Q &A

at the End and if you want to stump the pastor at Q &A, you can easily do so.

That's not hard at all as you know.

But if you want to get some input, I'll try to to tell you either a from Scripture be from wisdom.

RC.

Just my own thoughts.

All right.

Number one.

We looked at last week last time which was two weeks ago.

Is that scriptures can be our only authority?

They must be our only authority.

It is not the church you grew up in it is not your grandmother and what she thought it is not anything.

Except are you willing to submit to God's Word and the answer is either a yes or no?

Are you I could even push the envelope.

Are you content to be under God's Word?

And I said last time you'd be better be better be prepared to pay the price of being a Obscurantist a

bigot male chauvinist if you're a man a woman hater a dinosaur.

Who knows what because this is not what you're going to get on CNN or anyplace else?

But I don't really care because Morality is never determined by the majority true.

Remember years ago the moral majority.

We've got a lot of people therefore we establish morality and that's never the case.

Morality is established by God and God alone.

And if the majority believes fine if the majority doesn't believe that's fine as well for us.

We need to be God's Word lovers of God's Word and to be like Luther here.

I stand.

Believe God's Word help me.

I can't do anything else.

Secondly and let's just turn there to be reminded because there's some new people here tonight.

Let's turn to Galatians chapter 3 verse 28.

Men and women are equal in God's eyes.

This is a non -negotiable we're only going to go by what the Bible says and secondly men and women are equal in God's

eyes.

Galatians 3 28 is the flag ship verse for this very thing.

We went through it last week and I just want to remind you.

This is the verse that both sides will go to.

The side that says women should be pastors will go to this verse the side that says women should not be pastors should go To this verse

and in a sense I'm glad because we need to make sure that men and women are equal and I just want you to see

That the context here is not Roles the context here is not function.

The context here is nothing except Salvation in God's eyes men and women before the

fall and after the fall are made in his likeness and image.

They are image bearers women are full image bearers as well as men.

Galatians 3 if you just go up a few verses from 28, let's just jump in at verse 25.

But now the faith has come we are no longer under Tudor that Tudor was talked about in verse 24.

Which was the law for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ.

He's talking to the whole Church of Galatia men and women.

For all of you who were baptized into Christ.

That's a waterless baptism as well.

We were baptized into his body placed in immersed into have clothed yourselves with Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek which were the two big barriers there.

There's neither slave nor free and there was a bunch of both.

There's neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

He doesn't say you are all one functionally.

He says you're one in Christ.

I mean, what's the difference if I'm in Christ and my wife is in Christ.

We're both in Christ.

There's no levels.

So we looked at that last week.

We saw last week that women were supposed to get taught the law.

They were supposed to obey the Old Testament law.

If someone Killed a woman and killed a man there would be not a less punishment because a woman was killed.

It was the same punishment women true or false could take Nazarite vows.

True in Numbers chapter 6 a whole chapter in the Old Testament was talking about praiseworthy

women and they were to be praised.

What chapters that?

Proverbs 31 that's exactly right true or false spiritual gifts were given to women and men

true.

True or false the Holy Spirit at Pentecost fell on both men and women true.

We looked at Romans chapter 16 where many women were praised by Paul for their service.

Also, we saw last week that number three although different excuse me, although equal in Christ men and women have different

roles.

They have or different roles in the home and now they have different roles in the church.

Last week we saw that men and women Have even different titles women are called true or false

helpers.

Back in the garden is helper derogatory term when God said I'm going to make you Adam from your side a

helper.

Is that a word that's kind of?

Squashing women and putting her down.

Yes, or no.

No, why is that?

What was the main reason?

Because God was called the helper.

That's exactly right.

It's just a different function.

We also looked at Submission was not bad and let matter of fact, let's let's look at

this a little bit more.

1st Corinthians chapter 11.

Some people just can't get that word out of their mind that if women are supposed to submit To their husbands and that's somehow

horrible.

Submission we all have to submit to the government's we all have to submit to the elders.

We have to submit in a lot of different areas and submission does not mean it is bad.

It does not mean inferiority.

It does not mean second -class citizenship.

It does not mean your dignity and honor have been ripped out from underneath you.

Does not mean that at all.

And look at 1st Corinthians chapter 11 how we can prove this point is that Christ submitted to the father?

And was he somehow less than God?

No, he was equal with God.

1st Corinthians chapter 11 verse 2.

Now I praise you because you remember me and everything and holding firmly to the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

Paul's not talking about traditions of things made up.

He's talking about their tradition traditions that he taught them.

Hey Church at Corinth.

I've taught you these things.

Hold firmly to them.

I'm praising you for that.

But verse 3 I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man.

Would anybody have a problem with that?

Christ is the head of the church.

No and that the man is the head of the woman and so we just kind of freak out sometimes in

Evangelicalism today because it sounds so strange and God is the head of Christ.

No Distinction there in terms of God.

The Father has more worth than God the Son, right?

Somehow God the Son is is not as is important.

No, not at all.

But the fact remains that God in this plan as the son submits to the father wives submit to their husbands.

I Can further prove it by verse 7 if you'd like to look at that of the same chapter 1st Corinthians 11.

For man ought not to have his head covered since he's the image and glory of God.

But the woman is the glory of man verse 8 for man does not originate from woman.

But woman from man and again equal in Christ, but just different roles.

For indeed man was not created for the woman's sake but woman for the man's sake and again, that is not bad.

That's just a fact.

Let me read you a few verses from the book of John to just show you how submission is still fine.

It's godly to do.

Jesus obeyed when he submitted in other words John 434.

My food is to do the will of him who sent me and accomplish his work.

John 530.

I can do nothing on my own initiative as I judge as I here I judge and my judgment is just because I do not seek my own

will but the will of him who sent me.

How about Philippians chapter 2 when God the Son cloaked himself with humanity and came became low for us and

Submitted to the father's plan.

Was that somehow making him less valuable of a person?

Answer.

Well, absolutely not.

But trouble comes in with sin.

Let's go to Genesis chapter 3 if you don't understand Genesis, it's hard to understand any of the Bible.

But here's what happens with your Christian life.

You either underdo things or overdo them or both.

So if the husband has headship.

He either capitulates to the wife and lets her lead or he's an ogre and he dominates

Unbiblically and if there are the woman's roles here in in marriage at least the context you either

Do one of two things and this is exactly part of the curse.

Look at Genesis chapter 3 verse 16.

And if this doesn't make you want to be in heaven one day where there's no sin, I don't know what will.

How great is this gonna be?

Everybody's role is gonna be fine.

To the woman he said I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth.

In pain you shall bring forth children and do you know that is biblically true and ladies experientially true?

Yes.

Yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.

This is remember in the context of the curse.

This is not a good thing.

Oh, I desire my husband because I love him.

This is a negative thing where I desire my husband because I want to be over him and he's gonna rule over you.

But you want to rule over him.

Look to the next chapter for the same word in a negative context.

Genesis chapter 4 verse 7.

The next time this word is used in Genesis in the Hebrew Is in Genesis 4 7

if you do well, he's talking to Cain.

Will you not your countenance be lifted up?

And if you do not do well sin is crouching at the door and its desire is for you, but you must

master it.

So what happens we have the Bible as our authority women and men are equal in Christ's sight.

But there are different kind of roles and one of those roles of submission and leadership that role gets messed up because of

sin.

So that was just kind of an introduction.

Now, let's go to five key passages for men's roles and women's roles in the church and why they're different.

How we're equal in Christ but different matter of fact, let's do it this way who can give me some before we start.

It's Sunday night.

It's a long day.

It's rainy.

I hope you had a good cup of tea by the fire this afternoon and read some and got a nap.

Give me some passages that would tell us that there are different roles in the church for men and women.

Or why sometimes the Bible just says well only men should do that who could give me a few?

Well, either everyone's shy or everything.

I'm gonna tell you now is gonna be new to you.

And I don't think that's the case either.

Let's just maybe kind of go through it.

Let's go to first Timothy chapter 3.

First Timothy chapter 3 and I just want to prove to you from Scripture that Men should be elders

and pastors and women should not.

Why because men are better.

No, absolutely not this is just what God says if you are a colonel in the army and

Private comes to you.

He will report to you with rank and function, but he was not somehow worse than you are first Timothy chapter 3.

By the way, you want to know why the Episcopal Church is having all these problems these days with gay bishops.

I'll tell you why because they've capitulated to the modern age thinking and they've said we don't really care what the

Bible says and they Proved it because 20 years ago.

What did they say about men's roles and women's roles in the church?

There are no different roles men and women are equal.

It doesn't always happen.

But when you compromise on the word what else is left first Timothy chapter 3.

She's gonna make it super fast.

We at this church know this and here's my bet I'm betting.

You know all this and you just want me to get to the end to find out if a woman can teach Sunday school or Not that kind of thing.

So let's just let's just get through all that and get right to the questions.

I Do want to come I hit a few and by the way, I'm doing this in a very pedantic Didactic teaching style

because maybe some of you will use these tapes or maybe some of you have been exposed to this only for the first Time and it's one thing

just to get the Bible out and say here bottoms up open wide.

It's another just to get Walked through the Bible and what I want to do is have you to be in a corner and say uncle.

If the by the Bible teaches that men's roles and women's roles are different I've either can accept it or I don't accept

it.

It's not because there's some weird doctrine.

That's you know, the church has been divided on for all these years.

First Timothy 3 is a trustworthy statement if any man aspires to the office of overseer is a fine work.

He desires to do an overseer then must be above reproach overseer presbyter elder pastor same

difference.

The husband of one wife.

Now if you don't want me to argue for the words man there in verse 1 I don't have to because it's not necessarily a Greek word man.

Are he and all the personal pronouns a husband of one wife has to be a what?

man.

Elders have to be men.

Let's go to the next book 2nd Timothy.

It is part of my job as well as the other elders to hand down the truth to other men to

lead.

It's just what we're supposed to do and we'll look at what ladies are supposed to do in just a minute.

If we didn't have the dear ladies that are church -serving.

We would be in bad shape.

I must say though that I'm very glad that not only do the women serve here, but we have some men who serve it

is one of the Poor reflections on a dying church is when the women do everything in the church and the

men don't because they're too afraid.

They're too shy or they're too ungodly and they just don't do anything.

I Don't know if you've ever read.

Okay, 2nd Timothy chapter 2 verse 1 you therefore my son Paul talking to Timothy be strong in the grace.

It is in Christ Jesus and the things that you have heard from me.

So Paul the Timothy in the presence of many witnesses entrust a faithful what?

And faithful who men who will be able to teach others?

Also, you may be even never thought about that verse that way the elders have been taught by the apostolic messengers.

The scriptures are Paul in this case.

They're to teach other men who can then teach other men.

They're to teach women.

Of course, they're to teach women, but they're to disciple men and trade them up for the leadership of the church.

All right, what's the book that follows 2nd Timothy.

Titus let's go there.

Titus chapter 1 verse 6.

We're going to look at five key passages and then we'll look at some some things that women do do in the church.

All right, Titus 1 6 very simply it's the same qualifications except this is for a new church.

First timothy was to an established church at ephesus and paul says you need to get elders.

Titus is here on crete and it's a brand new church and he says the same thing.

To titus you need to get elders titus 1 6 namely if any man be above reproach the husband of one

wife.

That's just what the text says.

You can get a gender -neutral bible and they can.

You know pervert the words, but this is still what the text says and means.

And then lastly in this one i'm saving the big guns for the end.

Turn to first timothy chapter 2.

For the fourth key passage and then we'll get to first corinthians chapter 14, which is an amazing Section of scripture as

well.

I know we're bouncing around but that's okay.

First timothy chapter 2 by the way, why was first timothy written?

It's pastoral pistol.

How to act what?

According to chapter 3 verse 15 how to act in the Church in the church.

That's right.

And so how do we act in the church?

First timothy 2 9.

Let's look at the ladies here first.

Likewise.

I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing.

Modestly and discreetly not with braided hair and gold and pearls or costly garments.

In other words, uh, just have control over what you wear and you're in this not for just your own looks and what people think About

you, but this is a worship service and you want to don't want to distract and be a show -off kind of thing.

Don't flaunt your wealth verse 10, but rather by means of good works as befits women making a claim to godliness.

It is righteousness and godliness that we want in ladies, of course.

Then it says in verse 11.

Remember the context of the local church.

Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness now in our society.

Here's what we're going to do and i'll tell you why it's so important to study culture in our society.

Everybody's going to go.

Oh, I was okay so far.

Hold on nelly stop the phones call the presses.

I mean, whatever you say, I don't want to do that.

But think about what paul's trying to say in those days.

The women were looked down upon when it comes to teaching them.

You wanted them barefoot and pregnant is what you wanted them and you didn't want to teach him.

The men were the learners and the women were not taught.

MacArthur says in his study bible.

That was a novel concept since neither first century judaism nor greek culture held women in high esteem.

Here what is he saying?

It is a command you teach those ladies.

This is not somehow squashing women.

This is saying the women need to be taught if you're a new testament elder.

You better teach ladies.

Let them learn it is a command you bishop you teacher you elder you presbyter you teach the

ladies.

Here they're taught.

Let them let a woman quietly receive instruction you teach them.

But how are they to receive it with entire submissiveness?

Verse 12.

I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet talking about

women's roles in the church.

Now you can study this on your own but technically here's what he's after.

He's after a woman not to be a teacher like a pastor teacher like an elder.

He's not saying a woman.

You can't teach a sunday school women.

You can't teach other women and or anything else.

He's after that that official office of to be the teacher.

That function of the church that's teaching.

He's not saying women can never teach.

Because we know women did teach other places.

For what reason why is she to remain quiet in public worship and not teach?

Well, it says it in verse 13.

I mean i'll never forget it as long as I live.

I came to this church and someone said to me I want to be a bible teacher this church and I want to read scripture from this

pulpit.

I can read scripture better than you can.

I said Welcome to new england.

I just thought okay and I said well and I was trying to be nice and I said, uh,

well that's you know what the culture teaches these days and and I understand that but These two

verses in the bible first timothy chapter 2 verse 13 and 14 make it clear that this is not a cultural issue.

And she said to me.

Well, I can still read the bible better than you can.

I said i'm not debating that I some of you ladies as you correct My diction and my syntax as I get going too

fast, you could probably speak better than I can but that's not the issue.

That that went on for a long time, uh debating whether she could read scripture from the pulpit or whether she couldn't and.

And I was very loving and went on for years and one day I had to say you show me

from the scripture and i'll let you do that to this sunday.

Well the culture in our society and it kept going on and on.

I said, please from the text.

And she couldn't do it.

And so she got all mad and started to cause a fuss and she came back again and said I want to read scripture.

I want to read psalm 103 from the pulpit.

So I finally had to say now remember this was not.

You know mean mike you come into my office and i'm like just get out of my face.

Here's a bible verse.

I mean this was this was I was trying to hang in there.

And so I finally said over my dead body.

What am I going to do?

Just say okay.

I know that's what the bible teaches but go ahead because you pester me all day.

This is the text and it cuts through culture like a knife.

Everybody's asking questions a who is it.

B.

Are they still at the church?

A i'm not telling you and b.

They're not at the church.

You either submit to god's word or you don't.

I don't know what to tell you.

I've changed many many views even in the last six years, but I want them from scripture creation order number

one look at verse 13.

This is why it's not cultural for it was adam who was first created and then eve and you see the connector there for

This has nothing to do with what people like to tell us.

There was the fall and the fall created these divisions and functional differences false.

It was god's perfect design before the fall man, then woman to help equal yet different.

It's okay to be different.

Aren't you glad by the way on a side note that you're different than your spouse?

That's that whole thing we've talked about many times on sunday night you get the brand new married couple and they're.

Oh, we're so compatible and we're compatible and we're compatible and all these kind of things and we like everything the same.

I go you're going to have another thing coming in about 10 years.

We love all the stuff.

That's same.

That's fine.

And i'm glad but in many years you're going to say I rejoice in the fact that.

You like things I don't like and vice versa and i've appreciated that I didn't really like classical music at all before I met kim.

And uh, she had this kind of subliminal classic music tape that she'd play all the time for me first got married.

And so you enjoy you you embrace the differences and say that's fine.

It's okay to be different.

Different hormones different body shapes to all different things.

It's okay.

Secondly verse 14 why women should not be elders because of the fall.

Creation order number one secondly the fall and it was not adam who was deceived.

Tell me about that.

Why was adam not deceived?

What did he do instead of being deceived?

What did he do?

He sinned deliberately.

Listened to his wife and so he he advocated the leadership role that god had given.

Yes, lewis.

He was in charge and That's right.

That's exactly right.

That's right, so here it says it was not adam who deceived but the woman being quite deceived fell into transgression.

So god says because of the fall and the creation order.

I don't want to have men.

And women have equal functions.

I'm gonna have men be leaders.

Okay now fifthly save your questions we'll get to them to the end.

Let's turn to first corinthians chapter 14.

If you think it's hot in here now.

Just wait till we go through this.

Here's where it gets hot um I have many many charismatic friends and i'm not going to

be picking on charismatics now.

But I want to press them to the text.

That's why by the way, I love wayne grudem so much.

If i'm a charismatic, you know, i'm going to be studying wayne grudem and gordon fee because those men deal with the

text God told me so he's not going to deal with it and not going to do it.

But those men study.

I commend them for that but look at verse 34 of the

14th chapter first corinthians 14.

Remember this was not a very good church.

Paul was trying to deal with the issues and he was giving them a Chastening letter he's correcting their behavior

and I want to give you now this verse that we have to deal with again.

First corinthians 14 34 let the women keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak.

But let them be subject themselves just as the law also said says you just read those verses and you just think.

Again in our evangelical culture today people don't like that.

Now I always ask you this question.

You can say it out loud.

What is the context of first corinthians chapter 14?

Speaking in tongues.

Hmm let's find out.

Let's go back up a little bit verse 26.

I call this robert's rules of order for speaking in tongues.

That's exactly what it is, except it's not robert's.

It's paul's.

Some people say well, I don't like paul.

Well paul is inspired by the holy spirit.

So whether you got a red letter bible or a black letter bible, it's all from god.

You can't get off the hook by saying well paul wrote this and he didn't know first corinthians chapter 14 verse

26.

First of all for edification tongues are for edification.

What is the outcome then first corinthians 14 26?

Let's just go back up a ways when you assemble each one has a psalm has a teaching has a revelation has a tongue.

Has an interpretation let all things be done for edification.

So the first thing he says is everything must be done for the good of the body.

Do I believe in speaking in tongues?

Certainly they spoke in tongues.

Then the issue is are they for today, but that's not the issue of this text.

So let's stay within the text.

Verse 27 if anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be here.

Here comes more rules.

First one's edification.

Second of all if anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be done by two or at the most how many?

Three here comes some more rules and each in turn and here's another rule and let one

interpret.

Let one and only one so if there's going to be a public worship service.

For the corinthian church and there's going to be tons tongue speaking.

First of all, it has to be done for edification.

We'll know there needs to be an interpreter because if you can't understand what's going on that will not edify you.

I guarantee you I can prove it another way if you can't speak japanese and you're down in the dumps.

Don't buy a how to speak japanese tape.

Uh, just hold your questions and we'll get there.

Don't buy a how to speak japanese tape and put it on because you don't understand it.

So Here we are in verse 27.

No more than three one at a time and there must be an interpreter.

So you need to have edification and he just lines up the rules.

What does he say furthermore verse 28?

But if there is no interpreter, what should you do since we're all about edification.

Let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to god.

So he's talking about order.

He keeps going verse 29.

Let two or three prophets speak and let others pass judgment.

And there's something that's very important because you need to distinguish the spirits.

Are they of god or are they not?

They didn't have the canon then.

Verse 30, but if a revelation is made to another who is seated let him keep first silent.

For you can all prophesy one by one so that all may learn and all may be exhorted.

In other words, it is wrong to say the holy spirit took over.

And I have no self -control and I just had to go into something because the spirit was leading me.

No, he says one by one.

So all may learn and all may be exhorted.

You can't say I can't restrain myself because it's the spirit of god who did it.

They're even subject look at verse 32 and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets

verse 33 for god is not a god of confusion, but of peace as is excuse me as in all the churches

of the saints now.

Whether speaking in tongues are for today or for not today, and if that's a question later, we can talk about it.

But here's my issue.

What is the context of women speaking in the church are not speaking in the church?

Tongues.

This is amazing in the context of tongues.

He says let the women keep silent in the churches for they're not committed permitted to speak.

But let them subject themselves just as the law also says.

See, I don't know if I go for that verse 35.

And if they desire to learn anything let them ask their own husbands at home for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

And paul does something here that you just never see him do practically.

He goes you disagree with me.

Then you're conceited verse 36.

Was it from you that the word of god first came forth you think you're going to change the rules now?

So you're the one who speaks for god.

Or does it only come to you only?

And he does something here.

He says you're not only conceited.

You're not scriptural verse 37.

If anyone thinks he's a prophet or spiritual let him recognize that the thing which I write to you are the lord's commandment.

You're going against god.

He goes further he says but if anyone does not recognize this he's not recognized.

Sit down shut up and don't talk.

Then he says something else verse 39.

Therefore my brethren desire earnestly to prophesy and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

It's a legitimate gift.

Don't do that.

But there are orders and rules now.

Here's what I do want to say back up to verse 34.

Whatever else this is talking about it is talking about the role of tongues.

When ladies are speaking, let me read you one commentary.

Whatever else this refers to at least it refers to the exercise of the gift of tongues and prophecy.

For this in the is the context in which this command is given realizing.

Evidently the storm of protest this command would receive.

Paul falls it with the statement of authority in verses 36 Through 38 end quote.

In other words.

The onus is not on me.

I think the onus is on you when you say okay, let's say tongues are for today.

Secondly, let's say tongues are for today.

But more than two or three say them without interpretation.

And also another warning should go off in your mind when ladies Speak in tongues

in a worship service.

Is that not the context?

Is that the context it is?

So when there's No order.

When there's no more than two or three.

When they're not taking turns.

When there's no interpreter.

And then when there is a lady doing it I just have to say Show me from the scriptures i'm

willing to learn.

I have not arrived but that's the context of the passage.

All right, hold your questions.

We're going to get there.

I'm not trying to duck and jive you.

Let's keep going.

Um I'm trying to duck you for just a few minutes till I keep going.

I'm not trying to jive you.

Okay.

Remember the issue is women's roles.

You say what should a lady do?

Is there something a lady should do?

Well, let's turn to titus chapter 2.

A lady should use her spiritual gifts.

Of course.

And we are all recipients here at this church of wonderful women serving aren't we?

I mean Can you imagine if you're just all men at this church?

Well, that would be a sorry state.

Right bob.

Titus chapter 2 they should use their god -given gifts.

Titus chapter 2 verse 3.

What here's a here's an example.

I'm not going to give you every example, but just a few older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior.

Not malicious gotten malicious gossips not enslaved to much wine teaching.

What is good?

What should they do in a local church that they may encourage the young women?

To a love their husbands.

How grand is that to love their children?

To be sensible pure workers at home kind being subject to their own husbands.

Why.

Because it's a whim know that the word of god may not be dishonored.

Can women lead yes other ladies children, of course.

Go to first timothy chapter 5 if you would the chapter 2 2 books before that.

Let me show you what it's like to be an older woman.

And here's what you should live your life for women.

Of course should serve teach Last verses

and then we're going to get to the questions.

So hold on.

First timothy 5 9 let a widow be put on the list only if she is not less than 60 years old having been the wife Of one

man, so they had lists back then and that this list was this lady can't Take care of herself.

She's not married and the church should support her but she can only be supported if she's doing these things.

Having a reputation verse 10 of good works.

And if she has brought up children if she has shown hospitality to strangers.

She has washed the saint's feet if she has assisted those in distress if she's her devoted devoted herself to every good work.

What a great ministry that women can have and should have and I praise god at this church.

We do have that Verse 11 but refuse to put younger widows on the list for many many

reasons.

So should women serve the answer as we know at this church?

Yes.

All right.

Now, let's get to some questions before I get to my questions.

I'm going to ask you to give me your questions.

But before we do that number one.

I want to say ahead of time.

This is very complicated.

And so when you answer these questions even in your own mind, I want you to use this grid.

What does the scripture say what does wisdom say and what do I desire right that's biblical decision

making scripture.

Wisdom wisdom can be from two places praying to god for wisdom asking from other godly people for wisdom.

And then desire and it's always that way and if cheryl and I talked last two weeks ago I think it's

imperative for a pastor or the elders to say this is what the bible says.

And this is my wisdom about that because a lot of times there's there's not a verse in the bible women can't be ushers right.

I can't tell you this is what the scripture says.

So I have to give you my wisdom and you need to be careful when you receive Wisdom from people who are in authority that you know that it's

wisdom and it's not scriptural.

And that's big if you ever do.

Counseling and you counsel other ladies or you counsel other men you need to tell them.

This is god's word and you must do it or sin.

It's sin.

And then you step over here and say but the bible doesn't tell us exactly what to do here.

But here's what I would do and here's what i've seen done in the past.

So that's one thing secondly.

When you study this on your own try to determine what is prescriptive.

What does the bible prescribe and tell you what to do and what is descriptive?

Because I know i'm going to get the question.

What about deborah?

What about uh, some of the daughters and those kind of things and we'll get those and again I don't know all the answers, but

I think it is clear in terms of leadership in terms of men's roles and women's roles and.

Okay, so i've got my questions, but i'm not going to do them.

Let's take the question over here first and then we'll work our way around.

Yes.

That's a great question and that fits right in with tonight.

That's excellent.

I'll back off the question and come back to it.

It's very interesting.

What would you do with this one?

Now, let me ask you a question.

I came from a church where of course a man would preach John, mccarth would preach and there were several

deaf people in the congregation.

And this was a church of 10 000.

And so let's say there's 50 deaf deaf people.

Would you allow a woman to?

Interpret with sign language was it asl?

Is that what it's called?

Or if you were sitting there and if let's say if you were a man, would you feel odd?

I mean, I don't know the answer necessarily, but this is very difficult, isn't it?

So the text doesn't say Who the interpreters were and why and if god in his?

Sovereign hand gave that woman a gift of interpretation.

I wouldn't have a problem with it.

This the text doesn't tell me.

Yes,

yes, that's okay.

Yes.

Let me read.

I'm, sorry.

Was that a

okay?

Excellent point.

Uh, certainly he used deborah.

He used anna there.

Uh, there are other ladies that he used and can god use women?

Yes.

Um, let me before I forget let's go back to that interpreter.

Even though I think god could have an interpreter be a lady I'm, not so sure he would in the corporate context of first corinthians chapter

14.

It doesn't say that's just my opinion.

If I had to you know, he pushed me up to a wall i'd say well since it's the men.

If my interpretation is right that only men should Speak in tongues, then it would be right that a man would interpret.

So if I had to guess that's what I would guess that the text doesn't say.

Secondly, I would say that men that women are used by god to speak and that is a great example.

Let me ask another question along the same thing.

Uh, could david be a new testament church elder david the king?

David the king.

Why not.

He was a man after god's own heart.

He wrote all the psalms a lot of psalms to strike that in the right all of them.

So even though god in his sovereign choice can use in luke chapter 2 a lady to speak

for him.

And i'm not equating the two don't don't don't take this off the tape.

He can use he could use a child and he could use a donkey.

He could use a man, right?

He can use anybody he wants to speak for him still.

That to me doesn't prove that women should be elders and pastors because of just like david couldn't be in that position.

She's a woman so she can't be a new testament elder because of the qualifications in first timothy chapter 3.

So i'm fine for a woman speaking for god and his good divine pleasure when she does that in luke

chapter 2.

That's a good question.

The answer is yes, and here's my illustration.

When god is speaking to me through a woman will I accept the authority initially?

Usually sometimes I don't want to but eventually I will and now some other people are saying where's pastor coming?

God speaks through my wife a lot of times.

Now I don't want to pull this into an issue of is the canon open or closed and does god still speak today or not?

Because we're never going to get finished.

But at least at the church.

We don't believe that god still speaks outside of scripture so in in my Thinking when when

kim quotes to me the bible and says honey, um.

You know you you ought not to do that you're to rejoice always.

Quit moping around and the bible says to rejoice and you're to count it all joy.

Am I to receive that my flesh sometimes doesn't want to my flesh could say don't you tell me what to do?

I'm in charge around here.

I know greek.

You don't know you know I could do that.

But god's word is real powerful and it usually ends up convicting maybe not immediately, but as time goes on.

So can women speak and men should recognize the authority as they speak god's word.

Certainly.

Although that's not in the context of a local church because we're not all here worshiping and if I ask my wife To get up and speak for god

now.

The elders would stop me but also my wife wouldn't do it because it's the new testament church setting so good

insight good questions bruce.

Yes.

Yes, let's close in prayer.

I would do the same thing.

I would say that when god wants to especially before the canon was closed.

Especially in in terms of before matthew was written the first new testament book written.

Excuse me first new testament gospel.

The first new testament book was probably James, but as the canon think about it.

Was there more of a need for god to speak through people to people before the canon was complete?

Now we have the canon so we don't have to go around all the time saying god speak to us.

By the way, wouldn't that have been an interesting time to live in?

You know what god has said, but you know, he's going to say more so you're always looking out there who was really

speaking for god.

And who wasn't let's think about it.

If revelation chapter 22 hadn't been written and the canon hadn't been closed and everything else had happened.

We'd be wandering around thinking I wonder who's speaking for god.

Talk about google searches and i'd want to know God's speaking.

I want to know because I want to obey him.

But in the Time before the new testament canon was complete and malachi had ended in that time.

You'll see a flurry of activity where god would use people.

Like that in in the time of transition and so what I would say there Is even though god decided to do

that that is not the norm.

It's not normative.

And I know it's not normative because paul through the spirit of god writes first timothy chapter 3 and says this is what we do in the church.

Secondly we don't need that anymore because.

If someone comes to me and says god told me something then I confirm it with the word because I think the can's closed and I don't believe in the

word of wisdom or ongoing revelation.

Some do but.

So some of these exceptions and that's why I kind of almost sandbagged you ahead of time and said prescription versus description.

A description of what has happened in the old testament are new old testament all.

Old covenant in the sense pre -presurrection.

It's okay if god wants to do that.

But they couldn't be a new testament elder.

I know that.

Okay, I think we have another one karen.

Who might this be?

Yes, okay.

Other 15 year old boys in the room.

Okay other 15 year old boys in the room and maybe adult males in the room.

But let's talk about this one because this is bound to come up.

When should a woman stop teaching?

Young men are young men in church.

I don't mean at home when when Patrick comes home and you've learned some brand new bible

doctrine and patrick's how old now 25 pardon.

Yeah, 25.

Is it okay for a mother to teach her son something about the bible?

I can't believe it.

I just realized god's sovereign and everything including the weather and you know on and off you go.

I think that's acceptable.

But remember the local church context rules and so.

What I would do is even though the text doesn't say anything about well, what about these?

Parachurch organizations and get -togethers.

I would say this that uh.

At least jewishly speaking 13 might be a good place to start.

What we do at the church is we don't have any hard and fast rules, but at junior high level and above we prefer

Men that teach other men.

A because of modeling.

B because you got to draw the line somewhere.

It's kind of like baptism of children.

What a horrible sticky issue that is for local church.

Because I can't put it.

You know, I can't put a number on it because then you're going to say well jonathan edwards.

There's a girl underneath this ministry at four years old.

She got saved.

But I have to put some number on it because you can't bring to me your your 19 month old kid to get baptized by immersion, I guess

you could bring him but.

So it's very difficult so here's what I would say I would say that in the church here we prefer junior high.

Uh and older to be taught by men.

And so I think 15 I think especially in this culture of the bible you were a man.

The society knew you were a man.

So I think that's just a good average 13 and older.

And so if I was that young lady and I would say no, thank you I just don't think that's right to be teaching in this public setting.

It's not in the local church.

But there was nothing else back in those days.

You didn't have navigator campus crusade intervarsity.

You didn't have child evangelism and all these other organizations that are good.

We just didn't have those.

So paul didn't address those.

Um, for instance, let's let's go farther elizabeth elliott.

You write the chapter in this book.

I like elizabeth elliott because she's going to be a sticker for god's work.

She'll teach men in the local church and she'll say she's underneath the authority of elders that she teaches them.

And I just think she ought not do that because first timothy is clear on not teaching men

so I don't know if I answered your question, but I would just say I don't think i'd like to do that.

Jonah,

okay.

That's a good point.

Let's use an example.

Can ladies evangelize men?

How do you know that?

Okay, let's go there.

Let's look that up quickly.

Um boy time just zooms by.

Acts chapter 18 verse 24.

Uh, by the way, uh, i've been preaching now for about 45 minutes.

And so if you need to go and you need to pick up your kids.

Just go ahead.

We're not going to point at you or laugh at you or anything till you're out of the building but if you'd uh.

If you need to go you can go and so we're just going to talk about this a little bit more.

I don't want to have another part for this.

I cannot be exhausted in all my questions.

And that's why this book is going to help you, but we do want to answer just a few more questions.

And i'll go for maybe another 10 minutes.

Acts chapter 18 verse 24.

Now a certain junean to polis and alexandrian by birth an elephant man came to ephesus and he was mighty.

And asked if the team knew the bible which battle it is that well, you know, it's the old testament.

Verse 25 this man had been instructed in the way of the lord of being fervent in spirit.

He was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning jesus being acquainted only with the baptism of john.

He was not a christian even though he knew all these things.

He began to speak out boldly in the synagogue.

But when priscilla and aquilla heard them they took him aside and explained them the way of god more accurately.

You don't need the baptism of john that you're Repenting from the jewish lifestyle at the time.

You need a different kind of baptism.

That baptism is you believe in christ and you're baptized.

To show what's happened in your heart kind of thing when he went wanted to go across to a kale.

The brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him, etc, etc.

And then he demonstrated at birth 28.

Now something different that jesus christ.

It was in fact the messiah from the scripture.

So I think if you've got a woman in the spirit and you've got an authority figure over you.

Who's a man you can preach the gospel to them?

Right.

Of course.

Okay, more duets,

okay, that's.

Well, let me say two things number one, uh, if your marriage is good or bad.

Uh, it's the husband's responsibility right with headship comes responsibility so if you say

Same thing with the church everybody contributes To the problem, but

god doesn't go to those people kind of like the navy, right?

The american submarine by hawaii comes up and dumps over a japanese fishing boat.

And was it the captain who was at the helm?

Who forgot to do all the coordinating things?

No, he wasn't but the people under his watch were and who gets fired?

The captain.

And so when the husband and wife come in the counselor and you say to them, uh, who is the leader of this family?

The husband says I am by because the scriptures say then you are the one responsible 100 percent

not 50 50 we get around all the time in society.

It's 50 50.

It's 50 50 in terms of relationship and there's no roles in here.

But for leadership, it's 100 percent god.

I mean 100 percent god -ordained.

Person who in this case would be a neighbor so in a sense ladies.

What is it nice that if you have a husband and uh, he's a christian.

He doesn't always make the right decisions, but you say, uh, i've given my input.

I prayed for him.

I told him what the bible says and we talked about it.

He's going to determine something else lord.

What's in my hands?

It's between you and him.

Same thing with the church, right?

I know not everybody in the church, you know agrees with all the decisions the elders make.

But that's when submission comes in.

I disagree with all these decisions but submission means I disagree and i'm gonna keep right on going and god.

Um, I know you're gonna hold those elders accountable one day in judgment and i'm glad it's not me.

I don't even really like that.

I have to stand before god and answer to all of you.

Judgment day.

The only thing that keeps me going is I know i'm I can't even run my own life

sometimes right i'm gonna stand in front of god.

In that kind of sense we think wow.

So leadership isn't if you're a woman, you should say i'm thankful.

Aren't you glad you don't have to run the country?

I'm going to submit to the president and say god.

I'm going to submit to the president and that you're going to have to deal with him for those decisions that I left.

Just not as a queen.

That is a great idea.

What do you do if a woman gets elected as president?

Would you rather submit politically to maggie thatcher or tony blair?

Tony blair seems more along the same lines at least in the worst stuff.

What do you do in old days?

It was a shame for israel to have a woman leader.

And that was a judgment about it.

If you don't believe me, I can just I don't mean you IJ 3 12 all my people

their oppressors are children and women rule over them.

You want judgment.

If I can follow me as we don't i'll judge you and your women will rule over you

since we aren't israel and since we don't.

Have to have the same paradigm if hillary clinton becomes president.

We should do this.

Even though she would not be my choice the president.

Uh, we supporting roma chapter 13 have to not say bad things about it.

You can talk about policy, but nothing bad about the person.

And we have to submit to her and we have to pray for her.

That's what chapter two versus one and following says.

We could praise god that might be facing me.

But god says you want to leave it like that.

You could be jealous knowing that god is in charge.

So we should submit to that leader.

Whatever that might

be

more

not the conscience not like

you and you're going to have to

get it up more difficult.

I mean.