How Should Christians Vote? (Special guest Sarah Workman) | Season 5 Episode 5

So everybody, we are here to talk about should, well no actually first, how should

Christians vote? I'm Josiah. This is Sarah everybody. Say hi. Hi Sarah.

Hi Sarah. Now Sarah say hi. Of course. Sarah's husband was on two weeks ago in probably the fourth coolest episode we've ever done.

For sure. The prodigal son one. Uh huh. That was excellent. And this is Anna and we are here to talk about how should

Christians vote? But before we do that, oh by the way, the

Halloween episode last week, I kind of liked the Scooby -Doo outfit. I didn't bring it back this week, but I kind of liked the way

I looked about it. But we did, how did, I didn't even finish watching it yet. Yeah, we stopped it and I said it got too hot.

Just a little stop and we came back. Does it look like we just magically changed clothes? I honestly didn't make it that far.

I did not want to watch myself on that episode. Why? Because you were dressed as a lion?

No, an Ewok. Excuse you. No, I just, I was actually talking to April and Chris about this downstairs and I was like, you know,

I really, I just did not want to watch the episode and they're like, why? I just felt like I was, it sounded like an idiot, frankly, and they're like, oh my gosh, no.

Because you were dressed as animals. No, it was like the whole conversation about Halloween. I was like, I just felt like I was an idiot and Chris and April were like, no, you make it so relatable and you're so soft -spoken and you're like the best compliment to Pastor Josiah because he's a sore loser and you're not.

So just to be clear, to make you feel better, they used my demise. I just put words in April's mouth.

Let's put it this way. I was actually here and you did great. So I don't have to make up other stuff. Well, I appreciate that. It's not because I was a sore loser.

They were giving me encouragement and I told them, I was like, I was honestly going to go to Pastor Josiah this week and be like, hey,

I think I could do more behind the scenes stuff. And but yeah, so and that was like Donovan said when they went to Camper E last weekend, they had a couple that they were talking to about the podcast and that they really enjoyed the podcast and everything.

So I was like, OK, I hear you, God, because I'll stay. But no, we love it.

So the Halloween episode was fun to film. Yeah, it was very hot. I don't have to bring it back. I'm already hot now.

I am. I can be loud and a leader, but I am not a podcast person.

That's you. I'm just here to kind of just be the loud mouth. And then, you know, Sarah, you fill in a lot of our time with your talking.

So it's good. Sarah won't shut up. So now she's here. So now we're now we're all here. All right. Before we get into it, how should

Christians vote? We have a would you rather, right, Dalton? Low.

We got one. All right. You got your little mic. Got my little mic. Yes. The little mic. All right.

So here it is. Would you rather go shoeless for a month or no socks for a year?

Sandals are not an option. So barefoot, you mean? Barefoot is not an option either. Well, hold on.

Hold on. I'm confused. Oh, OK. Shoeless. Only socks. With socks. So you can only wear socks for how long?

A month. A month. Or wear shoes with no socks for a year. Same shoes?

That's up to you. Oh, OK. Not the same shoes. Yeah. Oh, that would rub blisters. With my job.

I got to wear shoes. Oh, man. If I'm walking on the pavement in socks. I would do.

Give me socks for a month. I think that I would do without. Have fun in public restrooms.

You said without socks in your shoes? Like, so wearing no socks with your shoes? I would do that.

Because I have one pair of tennis shoes that I don't mind wearing barefoot. Yeah, I see. And I could do that for a month or whatever.

I could maybe wear them tiger foot or lion foot. I couldn't wear them barefoot. You hear that?

Yeah. Nothing. She loved it. She was good. You just laughed at it. Yeah. No, I was laughing that no one was laughing at you.

I was laughing because no one was laughing. So. I was trying to find out. I was like, is there a brand? So I'm just.

All right. I'm going to say, give me. I'll just walk around in socks for a month. That's annoying. But I'll do it. What about you?

Oh, shoes. I can't. I work with blood. I can't. Yeah. So you're going to wear no socks for a year?

With shoes. Yeah. I get blisters. Man. Gosh. I walk around in Midtown. Like. Well, and then the needles that you work with.

She's a tattoo artist, by the way. Not some drug addict. Needles. I jump over. Yeah. Just go in your foot.

Go what? That was great. And drip down into. All right. Dalton, what do you say? What do you say, man?

Come on. I would just wear socks. Just socks? Just socks. That's what I'm doing. Hey, are the Titans still winning? Yes. Hey, we're focused, man.

Come on. Thank you. Thank you for the update. All right. Now I can focus. What about you? I would do the sock thing.

Just because a month, I can endure just about anything. But a year? That's going to get old real quick. Yeah. I'm thinking

I'm the same way. But, man. I'll tell you. You know when you're walking barefoot outside and you're doing great and life's great in your driveway, but then you step on that one sharp rock.

It's like that Lego. That one on your heel. The Lego of the outside. Yeah. Oh, Dalton has changed his mind.

He's going no socks. Give me the shoes. You're going to get blisters while playing basketball. Good luck. You're going to do what?

Have to work. Oh, yeah. Work and lay in asphalt with no shoes? Yeah. If I didn't have to work,

I'd be like, oh, we're stuck. You'd lose a month of work. That's why I'm like, I don't know. I could go without socks. I did that in college. I'm like, I have to go grocery shopping.

I'm going to go into Kroger or Walmart. I did that in high school for a couple weeks. I know a guy. I would fit in at Walmart without shoes. I know a guy who's been in a public restroom barefoot.

Yeah, me too. I saw him in the mirror this morning. Oh, stop. Why? I had to.

But where were your shoes? If it was an emergency, I can get that. Were you on a road trip emergency?

Yeah, and they were back in the car, and I had to go. I was inside. Sarah, are you with me?

Oh, I've been in lots of places with no shoes. Sarah Workman agrees with me. Your opinion is of less importance. That's okay.

I don't think that it is. Speaking of which, speaking of which, as we go into the topic today, we have a little bit of a different spectrum of political opinion up here on the table today, which is totally cool.

The question is, how should Christians vote? Anna had

Sarah and I take a political question survey thing. Would you share the results of that survey?

Sure. So let me, sorry, my phone. It's a little complicated. It's an Android, not an iPhone like the rest of y 'all.

So I'll go with, I'll do my results first. And I may or may not have done this like 10 minutes before we started recording.

Even though I sent it to him days ago. And I apologize. What else do you have to talk about? It's fine. It's fine. You tertiary apologized, so it's fine.

So I had the impression that I was more right -leaning than I actually am, you know, being a conservative

Christian as I would self -identify. I was actually right authoritarian.

Tell them the four options, just that the vertical axis is authoritarian, libertarian. Yes. And then you have left and right.

Left as in liberal conservative. Right. And correct. Right. So I was authoritarian right.

Pastor was authoritarian right, but he was further right than I was. You were at a seven and then

I was at a 2 .38. Seven out of what? I think 10. I think is the scale. All right. Because it just gives me the values.

So like here's the middle. Yeah. So there's 10 left, 10 right. I'm on right. Seven. That's almost all the way.

About to say. Yeah, you're almost all the way. And then that's where I am. Sorry, guys. Yeah.

I'll try a little harder. I almost made it. Yeah. So there's 20 spots. 10 left, 10 right.

And I'm on 17 out of 20 if you want to think of it that way. Dang it. I'm so close. And then Sarah is left libertarian and she's at a negative 2 .25.

So we're almost like. She's almost in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. She's almost at the middle, but we're almost on like the same.

She's left to your right too. Yeah. And so we're almost the same distance apart, just in the opposite direction. Even up and down.

It's like crazy. How far down is she? Like we're really. She's like 2 .77. On the libertarian side.

Yes. And you're on the. I'm on the authoritarian. I'm 1 .38. Okay. All right. So it's like we're like literally diagonal from each other.

So I think. And then I'm all the way over. Yeah. You're all the way over there. By myself. Alone. Sorry. I normally am by myself on this show.

But like I said, my husband was not as right leaning as I thought he would be. No, it's basically people like to pick on me and always choose the opposite side of me.

I'm normally by myself on this show. I'm going to be on your side this whole time. Literally. Really? Even though you're on the complete opposite side of me.

Just for this podcast. Okay. Thank you. No matter what you say, I'm down. I'm going to be so.

You don't have to do that. It's going to be awesome and weird. You don't have to do that. Lowell literally bought a mic for the podcast just so he could chime in anytime he disagreed with me.

That's why he has the low mic. That's amazing. Who says no? You're not on the mic. Sorry, I can't hear you.

How should Christians vote? The first question we have to ask is, should Christians vote at all? And obviously, when we read the

Bible, the writers of the Old and New Testament were not living in a democracy as we know it in the

United States at least. So that question is obviously not directly answered. But I think we have enough to at least go off of should

Christians be involved in any sense in government. So if y 'all don't mind,

I kind of want to open this up with scripture of how Christians did interact with the magistrates, if y 'all don't mind.

So just just think about it this way. God created different, I can't say this word, spheres, spheres.

Thank you. To operate he and he creates different federal headships, family unit, the man is a federal head.

In a nation, in a government, the magistrate, the president, king, whatever you want to call that person is the federal head.

There's a lot of examples of this. The church, its federal head is

Christ. And then there are under shepherds that are pastors, but Christ is obviously the actual head of the church.

And they're all in these different spheres, church, government, family unit. Well, God has given each of them different jobs and different authorities to do that job.

In the book of Romans and in Peter, God tells us that the purpose of government, y 'all ready for this, is to reward good doers and punish evil doers.

That's what government's supposed to do, to reward good doers and punish evil doers.

That is the divine job for government. That's what they're supposed to do. That's what the book of Romans says.

That's what first Peter says. So here's an example, and the

Bible says we're to, as long as they are operating in that sphere, we're to obey, we're to obey.

The Bible says there is no governing authority, magistrate, king that God has not ordained to be there.

At the same time, when that governing authority, magistrate, king, tells you to do something that goes against what

God has already revealed, the Bible gives us a clear answer to that. That happened to Peter and John, and they were arrested for it, and when asked to give a defense, they said in Acts chapter 4 and 5, we must obey

God rather than man. We must obey God rather than man.

I think of it like, y 'all remember iRobot, and it has three laws, you know, it will never harm somebody, and then law 3 is it always has to obey, unless that contradicts law 1.

So we are to obey the governing authorities, unless that contradicts rule 1, which is we must obey

God rather than man. And at that point, we are supposed to tell them no, and whatever that comes in.

Here is an example of, I guess we'll call it a citizen who is a Christian speaking out to civil magistrate, let's call it a politician, because that's what it is.

We have King Herod, this is John the Baptist, this is Matthew 14, we have King Herod, and King Herod is, now, if you know anything about the

Herods, there's a lot of them in the Bible, they are a weird family with a lot of incest and crazy stuff going on.

So I'm going to try to explain this the best I can, okay, Herod's brother is married to his niece, okay,

Herod, his, Phillip's wife, who is married to her uncle,

Phillip, leaves Phillip and starts shacking up with Herod, her other uncle, okay, and John the

Baptist is looking at Herod and like, this is wrong on so many levels. Yeah, dude, what the heck. You're with your niece, who's not your wife, who's another man's wife, and she's living with you.

You remember that whole story where Herod, it's later in this chapter where Herod wants to kill, I mean, where they want to kill

John the Baptist, so the woman's daughter dances for Herod? Yeah, that was his great -niece. Yeah, and he was so pleased.

Yeah, this John, so I'm in, I'm in, I'm in verse 1 of chapter 14, at that time

Herod the Tetrarch heard about the fame of Jesus, he has said to his servants, this must be John the Baptist, he's been raised from the dead.

I didn't understand that. So, so Jesus is doing a bunch of stuff, Herod's already killed

John the Baptist, so Herod said, this must be John the Baptist raised from the dead, because Jesus is doing all these miraculous signs, and then

Matthew is telling the story of how Herod killed John the Baptist, so it's a flashback, you know how all modern shows do flashbacks, that's what

Matthew's doing here. I was so confused, and I was just like, I don't remember him being raised from the dead, like what are they talking about?

Right, Herod, Herod's assuming that. Yeah, okay, I got you. For Herod had seized John, and bound him, and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother

Philip's wife, because John had been saying to him, so ongoing, repeated times, publicly, it is not lawful for you to have her, obviously that's a euphemism, to have her.

Right. Okay, so this is John, publicly, out loud, repeatedly saying, that's not right.

To the king, and he's saying, that's not right. That's our example from John the

Baptist, to publicly rebuke, not to mention,

Herod was supposed to be a Jew, so he should have known better, right?

This violates at least three laws, living together, not married, someone else's wife, your niece, right?

So that, yeah, very much so, and there's a whole other story with this, so John the

Baptist feels the right to speak out against the civil magistrate, so there's example one. At the same time, this is one that I've internally struggled with before, but it's a fact.

Y 'all remember when they asked Jesus, is it lawful for us to pay taxes to Caesar? Oh yeah, give to Caesar what is

Caesar's. What did Caesar use that money to do?

Kill. Kill, pillage, rape, destroy. I look at taxpayer -funded abortions, just for one example,

Jesus' basic answer to that is I'll deal with him, you do what

I told you to do, that's Jesus' basic answer to that. At any rate, there's just a few pointers, so is there a time to disobey the civil magistrates?

The answer to the Bible is clearly yes, but not because you disagree with the speed limit sign.

Like you often did in Oakland. So is this back on Josiah again, is that what we're doing here again, see?

Y 'all see what I'm talking about? No, I think it's just a - That wasn't even required to tell the story, did you see that? I think it's a

Shipley thing because I was behind your sister on the way - You see this? No, listen, listen, listen. Why are you shaking your head yes? It's a family, it's a family thing.

It's a family thing because I was behind Ashley on the way to church last Sunday, and I told her,

I said - Yeah, it is. It's true. And I told her, I said, you were speeding down this highway, and she's like,

I always do that, and I said, you've never gotten pulled over down there? And I was like, you're brave. I haven't, I haven't gotten, there's a thing called female privilege that has to do with getting speeding tickets, but that's a topic for another,

I will wait for someone to counter me on that one, I'll wait. The only time I was pulled over was because my husband's tail light was out.

No, it doesn't. That doesn't work for me in Cordova. Yeah. Well, it doesn't work for me no matter what. Oh, well, I mean,

I haven't in Midtown. Because you're a white male. But - In Midtown, they don't blink twice. I haven't gotten - I haven't gotten - They're like, I'm gonna need to search your car.

Look, I don't do that anymore. I haven't gotten a speeding ticket in probably seven or eight years.

Really? If you count a ticket, the only ticket that I got was from one of those cameras because I ran the red light, and someone's like, you don't have to pay those.

And I'm just like, but I know I ran the red light, so I'm gonna pay that. Yeah. I did wrong. We could go into a whole thing about me being pulled over nine times for tags.

In fact, you know what? I will for a moment. Because this is - I remember this story. Let me explain something to you. I remember this story. Used to, when

President Obama was president, we had, during his Cash for Clunkers thing, it was during that same time, but obviously it was before then, too.

Y 'all remember when we had to, here in Memphis, Shelby County, pass inspection to be able to get your tags? So, you had to pass inspection to have the privilege to pay $114 to put the sticker on your license plate.

So, you're paying an extra charge to get your charge. No, no, no. The inspection was free. Oh, was it free? There's two of them. There's the big one on Appling and I -40, and then there's another one,

I guess it was closer downtown. I'm trying to remember. I think that we had to pay for that in Mississippi. Yeah. In case you were wondering about that,

I did it because I had to. It's kind of what we were just discussing, but do

I think it's not right that I had to go get my car inspected by a government official to pay $114 to have a sticker on my license plate?

Yeah, I got a problem with that. But anyway - I failed inspection. I'm getting there. Oh, okay. So, you're - I failed inspection because my truck didn't meet the emissions requirements under that president.

I was 17. I poured every dollar I had to in that truck. I tried. I remember that truck. It was not a -

They used to sell this stuff at all, and it was called Guaranteed to Pass. Did you unplug your battery and plug it back in before?

I sure did. I sure did. Yeah, that's what I did. That's how I passed every year. I sure did. I had never had a car that could have passed emissions.

That's so funny. Yeah, but - Then I got smart, and if it was a car before, I think, 70 -something, they wouldn't make you.

Yeah. So, I just started getting super old cars. I had a 92. Yeah. So, they gave me this sticker that said, you failed inspection.

I would get pulled over. He would come to write me a ticket. I'd show him the things that I'm trying. He would write me a ticket and say, you have 30 days to get passed inspection.

I would spend all my money to try to get the engine to run with less emissions. I'd go. I'd fail again. I probably - me and my brother got pulled over nine times that year.

It ended up being a thorn instead of what they were trying to do with it, which was to protect the environment. Well, that's where you and I, I don't think that's what they were trying to do.

I think they were trying to get money, and they succeeded a lot for me. But at any rate, let's pretend that they were actually doing it for the sake of the environment.

Well, that was what we were being told. That's what we were being told. Reduce emissions. I will say that since that's gone away - As they flew in their planes that put out way more emissions than my 92, don't even get me started on that.

Yes, I do agree with that. I will say, though, that Memphis streets have been so much worse since they've stopped making the cars go through.

Because I feel like nowadays, there's just people on the streets with cars that are like, no bumpers. I mean, like, just the streets themselves are so -

It makes me feel better. But at 17, not all of us could afford a 2012 or whatever year it was.

I can't even afford - I have a 2010. Don't test me with years of cars. I've got everything. No, no, no, no, no.

No, because I had a 95 Infinity for my first car. What year is it from? The one I have now? It's a 2000 -something.

I buy used cars. That's okay. Well, I'm saying that I buy the older ones because I'm like, you know, it's like $1 ,000 cheaper versus this other car.

My car is older than Dalton. Yeah, it is older. My car is a 95. Oh, it's as old as me. Is that your birth year?

95. Me too. I'm a baby. Lying is next week. Lying. Oh, sweet.

I am real good at that. I'm real good at that. So - I was born good at that. When we look at the question of should we vote, what's your initial gut reaction to that,

Anna? Yes. So forget about the candidates in place.

In general, should we vote? Should we vote? Yes. Okay. I would feel, for me, it would be disrespectful to Christians in Iran and North Korea if I didn't.

That might just be me. I was like - Also, all the Americans that fought for that. Oh my goodness. Right, the privilege to be able to -

Oh my goodness. And that's what made me start because I, for a while, did stop voting because I was having such a hard time after I got saved.

Well, I understand that. I was like, there's no right answer. There's nothing. So I just stopped. And then

I just kept like, I was like, I'm not doing it anymore. And then I just kept feeling like, I kept reading it because I love history.

So I kept reading all this stuff and I'm like, all these people fought so hard. The least I can do is sit down and try to figure out what the best way to parse this out is.

And it's not fun. I think it's your civic duty as an American citizen to, like you said, and people fought for it.

And so it's like, I'm not going to - I agree. And if I may say one thing, and this is probably what a lot of new

Christians don't understand, but even old Christians, I could open this book and never stop reading how we should care about who's in charge.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, first Kings. I mean, when they elected kings, if you want to use the word elect, when they appointed leaders, no matter where you go in the

Bible, just think about the qualifications God has for someone to be a pastor of a church.

The list is like that long. The point is, and I'm not saying a pastor is the same as a president.

I misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm saying we should care about who is leading us. It seems to me that someone who votes in no scenarios ever does not care about who is leading us, because in their mind, it doesn't matter, it doesn't make a difference.

But I think the answer to that would be, and it never will if people like you, you know, so I think we're saying in general, the answer is yes, they should.

Yes? Yes. So the next question is how? Now, there's a lot to that question, so just a few pointers.

So, what are some non -negotiables that, for example, I could never vote somebody that supports

X? What do I do if someone morally is living like this, but their policies support this?

In other words, morally, should I only ever vote for a Christian? You know, someone's asked me that before.

Or what if I've got somebody who morally is not closely associated with what

Christians should be, but their political policies happen to be in line with this more than the other?

What do I do with that? Should I look to the president to be a Christian ethical example, or should

I look at them as somebody who will promote more policy that will produce more godliness, even if they don't intend for that?

How do we deal with that? So we've got to deal with that. What are some thoughts that come to your head? What are some things, and maybe there are none, but what are some things in y 'all's brains that are non -negotiables?

Either the person I'm voting for has to have this, or the person I'm voting for can never have this. What are some non -negotiables?

Do you have one? I was about to say, because if you do, I'll let you go first. I was like, let me chew on it.

My biggest struggle was, especially with the last election, with Trump and Biden.

I think that was a lot of people's struggle. Because Trump, you love him or hate him, he did a good job with the country.

We had good jobs, the economics, the economy was great. He did a good economic job? He did, and he's a businessman, and so he was able to get that done.

Sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted you. No, seriously. That's what this whole podcast is about. This is the discussion. Well, that's the thing. I see, because I'm older now, and I've seen multiple presidents.

And I will say, as a private person, when a Republican's in, it does seem like the economy feels better.

But I also have always wondered how much of that is left over from the president that worked to fix it before.

Because I always wonder - In other words, with a four -year system, it's hard to tell who to give credit to. And that's a problem

I've always asked. And I've asked so many people, because people will be like, oh my gosh, when so -and -so was, it was just amazing. And then I'm like, yeah, but that president that was there before had all these people coming in, and they were doing all this stuff to get the economy aligned.

Or they change a bunch of stuff and get rid of - And it takes a long time for it to take in. Or Trump came in, and he got rid of a lot of stuff, or vice versa.

And so, what is - Well, my struggle with the whole thing was, my husband and I call, well,

I call him a donkey to be kind. You know what I'm meaning by that? Too clear.

We're not talking about your husband. We're talking about the president. Yeah, okay. Okay. You don't call your husband that, right? No. Well, another podcast later.

No. No. I love you, honey. No, but we, I refer to, you know,

Trump as a donkey. Even though he did good things, like, he's kind of a donkey.

And I was telling my husband yesterday, I said, and Trump was for abortion like up until like six or seven weeks.

I'm like, I have a problem with that, because he claims to be a Christian. And I'm like, so that, that was difficult for me.

And I'm like, okay, since he's running again, like, I told my husband, I said, I don't know what

I'm going to do. And he's just like, are you serious? And I'm just like, I really, I don't want to do something because someone else impressions me to do it or vote.

And I said, I want to know why I'm voting for this person and like pray about, like actually pray about it.

Because the first time I voted, I was, what I was, it was 2016 was my first election.

So I was like 21 at that point. And so it was my first election, like really didn't know. I was just kind of going like with what

I saw on TV and like making my decisions and whatever. And so with this election, I'm like, I want to be more intentional, but it's just, it's so hard because like you said, you have different candidates who say they're

Christian, but then their actions speak differently, even though, like you said, his policy, like he, his policies were good.

I think like you said. And he did do some, like I loved what he did for the vets. Like there were things he did. Like I did, like I did really try to be like, this is our president.

And that's the thing, I'm not a fan of Biden. I'm not a fan of everything that he's done with our country, but he's still our president and he still needs to be respected.

Like you said, that's what God commanded us to do as Christians. And so just being more intentional with voting and actually doing research.

But like you said, it's like, how do you know if they're a Christian or not? It's like, you can only judge them based off of their fruits. That's all we have.

And so, I don't know. It's just like, you don't want to make the wrong decision, but it's like, I don't know, the electoral college and everything.

I'm like, I really feel like it doesn't make a decision. Like, I feel like the local elections make more of an impact than your federal, like the main election does.

And I don't know. So it's kind of, I think that one's really important. I think all of the elections are important.

But if you really want to vote, I think you should vote in your local elections because those have weight in the presidential election.

So not to discredit everything you just said, because that was beautiful. Did I not answer your question?

What, so what are the non -negotiables? I'm so sorry. My non -negotiables would be, and it's like,

I'm sure every president does this. And you don't have to have one. Abortion would be one. In what way? Because, if it's allowed at all, because I'm...

You can't vote for that person. No. And so that's my thing. And it's like, and it's such a struggle because like, what if every candidate, like even if they're the independent candidates or, you know, like all the little names at the end, like Kanye West was one of the little names last election.

It's like, what if all of them do that? And it's just like, okay, well then, I don't know. It's like,

I couldn't vote for somebody for that. I think that would like... Well, if you're going to have a non -negotiable, that's a pretty good one.

That would be my only non -negotiable. But there are other things like, I don't know if we're being like completely honest, like saying things that we're for or against in this podcast episode, but I'm free to discuss them or like the border.

I don't think it's our responsibility to take care of people outside of this country who are coming in illegally.

Like not talking about refugees and things like that who are actually allowed to come over. The church should be responsible for that, not our government.

And so it's like, there are certain things that like, I don't prefer. Like Nikki Haley is for like the war in Ukraine and like all of this stuff.

And I'm just like, I just really don't think we need to be involved actually. So you're probably not going to get my vote. So number one, abortion, but then like, it's just other things that are not non -negotiables, but they're just like,

I don't prefer that. So that's up at the top for you. Other things are important, but not on that level. Right. All right. That's the only one that's sticking out in my mind right now, babe.

I think for me, anything that takes things from children is what, like a while ago we were voting about like the food for like kids to keep like breakfast at school.

They were talking about getting rid of it. I was losing my mind. How dare you?

Like that's how we ate growing up because we didn't grow up with a lot. And so I'm just like, so you're going to do all these things and you're going to go to war and you do all this stuff, but you're gonna let your children starve.

Are you kidding? So that was my like, like once they're, I really struggle with like littles and older people and mothers, like people who need to be taken care of.

That's the people we're supposed to be taken care of. Like that's the people we were told to take care of and we don't.

And it was the church's job, but I think that we as a people thought that the government would do it.

I hoped. Just taking over. Sarah brings a great question. Like that, that question is really a key question that we all have to answer and it's not an easy one.

I'm not suggesting it is. The scripture says explicitly in James, pure and undefiled religion, the only time the word religion is used in a positive light in the entire

Bible, it's in the book of James. It says pure and undefiled religion before our God is this, to take care of widows and orphans and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Now I find that a lot of church doesn't do either of those. Keeping oneself unstained by the world is as important as taking care of widows and orphans and the way around.

However, that was a command for the church. So then you have to ask yourself the question, all right, decide what if I'm in a city, a scenario where the church isn't doing that?

Should I look to the government to take on that role because the church isn't doing its job or should

I not? In other words, how do we deal with that? That's one thing and Sarah brings up a great point here.

Let it be known, ladies and gentlemen, a lot of the issue we have,

I'll just stick with our nation for now, but it's not just our nation, is from individuals not taking responsibility for it.

God has given them responsibility for it. Parents teaching their children, push it off to somebody else.

Churches taking care of seeking justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with the God, push off to somebody else.

That is a key problem that we have in general. Did you have something else on that?

I don't think so. So okay, got that. What are your non -negotiables, if you have any?

What I'm about to say sounds probably odd. I would always prefer,

I would always prefer that the one in charge of a nation is a believer.

I would always prefer that. That is a, and the reason why, a, and this is the problem, a true believer will conform more to God's word in the matters we just discussed more than anyone else.

And Anna, not at all to correct, earlier she said, all we have to go by of is their fruit.

Not, just because plenty of people say they're Christians. But I don't think we should word it, all we have to go off of.

That's plenty enough. Look, let me tell you something. I don't have a degree in arborology, or herborology, or plants, or whatever, right?

Herbology? Botany? Botany? That's it. Botany. But if I see oranges on a tree, I don't need no degree to tell you it's an orange tree.

So if all we have to go off of is their fruit, what the Bible tells me explicitly what that fruit is. If I don't see it, you can say whatever you want.

You're not a believer. Yeah. So I'd always prefer that. However, yeah,

I can't vote for somebody who accepts the idea of murdering children.

And a lot of times when I say that, people roll their eyes and that's old. You're being dramatic? I think it's important that we call stuff what it is.

For example, I'll give you a perfect example. We had a candidate here in the United States whose name rhymes with Colonel Crump, who years ago all of a sudden magically cared about abortion about two days before he ran for president.

But he lived in the public life for years, and I don't remember ever a single time hearing him ever speak out against that until he ran for a specific office in a specific political party.

That's intriguing, isn't it? I hated that he was the Christian example to the world for us.

Well, because he wasn't. Right. Because he wasn't. Yeah. But I know what you mean. Right. That hurt me. That's not how we are.

Twenty years ago, we had a president, a Democratic president, say the following words.

Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

If he said that today on the Democratic platform, he would be laughed off the stage. Oh, he'd be booed off the stage.

In 2020, all nine candidates for the Democratic Party, and I'm not picking on them, just raised their hand in support of third term abortions.

The president from 20 years ago from that party said safe, legal, and rare.

That's how far devolved we have become. In 20 years. That's how far devolved we've become.

Yeah. The Bible says, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, so God turned them over to a reparate mind.

You know, one of the biggest judgments God gives nations is bad leaders. Bad leaders are one of the worst judgments he gives nations.

In other words. Okay. That's what the Judges was all about, bad leaders. That's exactly what the book of Judges is about. I actually wanted to ask you, would that make

John the last judge? John would be the last Old Testament prophet. Okay, but he wasn't a judge.

No. Even though he told, like, I don't know, it just lines up really well. You mean

John the Baptist? Yeah, John the Baptist. No, okay. Because he told Herod, and then after he died, like, there was a huge change because of the

Christ. No, but good, good point. I see what you mean, because, you know, in the book of Judges we'll have the people disobey

God, God sends judgment, he raises, they repent, he raises up a prophet for them, they do good for 20 years, and then they don't teach their children, and there's a cycle of it.

That stops after the book of Judges, because then they ask for a king. And then we go through it. And then God didn't want to give them a king.

And then he said, let them have what they want. All right. So I think God didn't really want us to have government in the first place. He was supposed to be, he wasn't supposed to be the priesthood.

There was, okay, so I'll answer that. So in, let's just take the Mosaic system, let's take

Moses. There was a, if you will, a governing body of elders in the sense of this.

Let's say there were 4 million people that left Egypt, and it says 600 ,000 men, so 1 .2

million adults plus kids. I'm just saying 3 or 4 million, I think that's a close enough guess. He had leaders over groups of 1 ,000, groups of 100, groups of 50, and 10,

I think it was, or 20, or whatever it was. So there was a structured system of leadership. There really was.

But what made that system work was everyone at least had the same starting point. You know, everyone had the same starting point.

Everyone. Well, there was also like with that, and that's something I talk about as far as like a lot of the ways I think our government has done poorly.

Everything's so big. So you don't have 10 people over 10 people. You have, you know, one person over hundreds of people.

And so 10, if you had one person over 10 people, and then that one person went to the person over 20 people and talked, and then that person went to the 30, by the time you got to the top, it would be so much better,

I feel like. There's just no accountability all the way up, and there's no like, but it's just. So, I agree with what you just said.

I have to do this a lot. And if you're listening to this as opposed to watching, I'm sorry, but I just have to do this a lot.

God said he'll take care of that part. I have to do that a lot. And when

I look at some of the atrocities that our politicians do, there is a scenario where I have a right to be angry.

There's a right where I have a protest. There's a right where I have to call and say, that's not right. This is the standard.

This constitution, for example, here is the standard. You're not living up to it. I have the right to do that. Because in reality, this may shock some people who have never thought about this.

In reality, our ultimate governing authority in the United States is God. But in the United States, it's actually the constitution.

It's not the president. Did you know that? It's actually the constitution, that document. So, I'm not trying to give someone an argument for rebelling.

I'm just telling you as a fact. When we have a scenario where a politician is asking you to do something that is against the constitution,

I don't think you are being rebellious to Romans 13 by obeying the constitution instead. I'm just...

On a second, we have a right as the American people to overthrow, to impeach the president. But if I violate what this constitution says,

I have a right to be judged, as I should be. It's the same with a politician. But at any rate, that's not the point

I was making. The point I'm making is, I feel what Sarah says. The Bible says, leave room for his wrath, he will repay.

There is a double sense that I have. That guy's going to get what's coming to him.

And at the same time, if God were to open up the floorboards right now and allow me to see a tenth of a second of hell,

I would fall on my face and beg for forgiveness for a child molester. That's why they burned witches, so they could feel a tenth of a second of hell and have enough time to repent.

Right, right. I would feel the awfulness of that.

I would beg for repentance for other people. So at the same time,

I leave that to the hands of the Creator. The Bible says that He'll take care of that end, and they have to answer to Him. Which, you know, one of the things, as a pastor, that drives me more than anything else, when

I get up in the morning to get ready to work, one day I will be answering to the

Sovereign God with what I did with the time and the job He gave me to do.

That's a terrifying thing, and it should be. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That's how civil magistrates are supposed to be.

They're supposed to fear God and out of that punish evildoers and reward good -doers.

So, with that being said, what do we do in scenarios,

Sarah and Anna, where it seems that the options that we have in front of us, none of them line up with Christian values?

What do we do? So our options are A, pick the lesser of two evils.

The question is, how do we decide that? B, not vote at all. Or C, write in somebody else who will not win.

Does everyone agree those are our three options? What do you do? Anna, you first. Okay. I would say picking the, not like this is my answer, but like going through each of the options.

Like if you pick the lesser between two evils, which many people say they did in the 2016 election, it's like you're still picking evil.

So that's probably not a good thing. The second one you said was not vote at all. As an

American citizen, I would highly discourage that because like we talked about earlier, people fought for your right to vote, however.

And the third was, what was it? The third is to write in somebody who's not going to win. I did that one time.

Right. And so I would say C. What would you say,

Sarah? Because that way you're still putting in your vote. You're still participating as a part of your civic duty.

You're still electing or voting for somebody who you know's morals will be well.

By the way, I can say I've done all three of these before. Yeah, I have as well. I have done all three of these before.

I definitely vote. And like this last election, I actually voted for somebody that I thought had a chance.

They did not win, but they were the more moderate choice between like the Democratic Party side.

So I ended up voting for somebody who, although I didn't like a lot of the things that they had going on, I thought between all of what

I had to look at, they felt like they would be a person that could talk to both sides.

Because that was where I felt like our country was really crumbling was more in how unified we were. And that's what's crazy to me too is, you know, like we created this democracy, like God did not create the democracy.

And so he doesn't care about like politics, like Republicans versus Democrats and independents and all that stuff.

He does not see that. And so for us, I just feel like having these different political parties are such a division to the

American people or, you know, like whatever other country you're involved in. And so I think that it is damaging.

And it's like, guys, we just want like a nice place to live. We have a great country. Whether you agree or not, like Cher said if Trump was going to win this next time, then she was going to move.

I'm like, why don't you just move now? Like if you're not happy here, just like go be miserable. Wait, who said that? Cher. I don't know who that is.

Yeah, you do. Like Sonny and Cher, the long haired, you've heard her songs. She's famous.

But people are just being so dramatic with that. And it's like, I understand like you might not get what you want. And I just,

I don't know. I think it's all silly. It's just so polarizing. It is so polarizing. But like I said, God doesn't see the different political sides or parties.

Oh, yeah. And so it's like, I feel like if you pick the lesser of two evils, like if you have to pick between like the main candidates, it's just like if they don't align with what scripture says, then

I say don't vote. Like if you had to pick between those two. But like with our elections, how they work, you know, we have like all the independent candidates and everything.

Like I said, Kanye West was on the ballot in 20 whatever that was the last election, 2020. And so, yeah,

I don't know. Yeah. That's kind of where I'm. I think we've fallen into a trap sometimes in thinking that the political party shortcut is always going to equal.

In other words, you know, I'll have someone tell me some, you know, is it possible for.

So, for example, for a long time, I think people had the idea of Republican equals

Christian. Democrat equals not Christian. You know, to reduce the gospel to political parties in one nation is pretty pathetic.

Yeah. Guys, in other words, if there's anyone out there, if there's anyone out there that thinks this, there might not be.

But in case there's a couple of idiots watching, there's an out there that thinks, OK, if all

Republicans are elected in the next election, that means people have repented and turning to God. Absolutely. You're insane.

Like, you're crazy. I wish. You're crazy. I wish that were the case.

People repent. I think there are, I think there are obviously, like, for example, obviously abortion, things like that, have to be a higher importance to me than tax brackets.

They just have to be. Things like that, that are strictly godly, ungodly, have to be higher than other things.

But don't ever fall into the trap of thinking, OK, if they have a little R or a little D or whatever by the name.

That they have all the same values and morals. Right, that's ridiculous. The Bible says the reason why people choose to reject

God is because they love darkness rather than light. That darkness can look like a lot of different ways, but the end result is because they love darkness rather than light.

Our job is not to call people to a certain political party, it's to call people to repentance.

Everybody, all of them. From the highest to the top, that's our job. So, can

I only vote for Christians? We probably won't all agree on this one, that's

OK. My answer to that would be, not necessarily. Not necessarily,

I think. Because we're asking someone to perform a civic job. I would always prefer that, but my answer would be, not necessarily.

What would you say? I would say the same. It's not realistic that every single person that you're going to want to run for office is a

Christian. It's like going to a doctor and expecting them to be a Christian. I feel like it's very far few and in between that you find a

Christian physician who is actually outspoken about it. And even if you're in another profession, like an attorney or whatever, you would prefer that they would be a believer.

Just because you would have more to relate on and they could really get to know you on a spiritual level. However, that's not always the case.

And so, I would agree that you're not always going to have to have the option of voting for a Christian.

But even if they are, they might not have the same... I mean, we have different opinions and we're

Christians. You're in a different political party and we're on... That's okay. He's more far right.

That's what I'm saying. It's like you're more far right than I am, but it doesn't matter. Yeah. We've got politics too.

It's so personal because how I grew up is going to really affect how I feel. How you grew up is going to affect how you feel.

What's important to you is going to be different than what's important to me because of what I saw. Right. Things I hold very dearly.

And so, it becomes part of your identity. Well, and that's the thing with the society is that they make everything...

You have to identify with politics, your gender, with religion, with jobs.

You have to have something to identify yourself. And as Christians, it's like you identify as a child of God and that's it.

When it gets past that, I think that's when it becomes bad. When you're like, oh, I'm a...

Once you become a Republican or a Democrat or whatever, it's like then you're kind of in trouble.

Because then you've attached yourself to something that has changed so much. It's wild to think.

Because I've been pretty liberal since I can remember. But the liberal

I grew up with was 90s liberalism. Yeah. So, I feel like that's... When dudes were dudes and chicks were chicks.

Well, and too, when abortion was something that nobody thought was great and we wanted to make it as minimal as possible.

And how do we stop it and how do we keep it... And it was just for the incest and rape cases and things like that.

How do we protect women and how do we... And how also do we implement things to make it to where we don't need it anymore?

What if we got rid of it? Because literally, it just came down to... What if every woman knew that if they got pregnant, they would be taken care of?

Well, and then... That would completely change. But now it's completely different of abortion's healthcare. And that's your constitutional right, even though that's nowhere in the

Constitution. And so, it flip -flops so much. But can I actually ask you a question? So, when you became a believer, did you have certain political ideas that changed?

Or things that you believed in? They did a little. There were things, I think, that I saw that I didn't see before.

Like, again, going back to being kind of more 90s liberal. So, I voted Democrat for a very long time.

But then I... And I don't know if this was age, because I kind of lined up. I was in my 30s when

I got saved. So, I think I was also getting older. But also, then being Christian, I started noticing, like, wow,

I'm trusting these people. Because the hope of most, I think, especially your more liberal -minded people is...

Like, if somebody would say, you know, what if the country taxes you more? But that means that all poor people get medical care.

And I'm like, do it. Do it right now. Do it right now. But then as I got older, I'm like, wait. I've given them this money.

I voted that way. I did that. And I've only seen people get poorer. And I've only seen the line get bigger.

And I've only seen more people get hurt. And so, now... So, that kind of, like, started to become problematic.

And so, now I'm like, okay. So, I still believe in taking care of all these things. That has never changed for me.

But it is different. And, like, the way I saw, like, a lot of... Like, even the rights and some of the more...

Like, with some of the more... I don't want to say...

Like, some of the LGBT stuff. Like, I started to be like, okay, guys, y 'all are getting crazy.

You know? Like, you're coming at this wrong. You know? And that's, like,

I started kind of seeing how some of that could become problematic. But... So, definitely there were a lot of things that changed.

And how I wanted to go about it more so. Because before, it was like, you know, I was always very, you know, socially active.

And doing things. And lots of, you know, going out. And, you know, standing in front of places.

And, like, this is wrong. And we made a lot of difference doing that. You know, holding up signs. And, you know, like, in Midtown, there were places that were treating homeless people really poorly.

And so, there's a guy in Midtown named Paul. He got these people to protest for months. And they finally fired a guy that was molesting women.

You know? But we had to get in there. And we had to, you know, boots on the ground it. And so, that's how I grew up. And so, it was very protective of women.

And very protective of people who didn't have rights. And in the 90s, that included gay people. I mean, they were killing gay people.

I mean, it wasn't normal. But I remember when the news came out. And they made it to where. I don't know if y 'all were alive when this happened.

But there was some show, like Jenny Jones. And this guy came out. And then the guy that he came out to, he basically said,

I've been in love with you. The guy killed him. I remember that. Yeah. And then he, they tried to use that. Basically saying his testosterone was so overwhelmed that he was, you know.

And we backed that. We're like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. He had to kill that guy. And I'm just sitting here like, so y 'all just told me men don't have thumbs.

Men are too stupid to get hit on. And then not murder. And I was very against that.

I was like, that's not Christian. So you're going to tell me it's more Christian to kill a gay person? You know, so that was kind of.

So as a young person watching that, I just was like. I saw a lot of the moral police running around.

Doing really awful things to people that were so little.

You know, like they're just these people that get run over and bulled over. Nobody stopped to ask them what was going on. Nobody cared, you know.

I think that's the common theme is you make it look like you're getting things done.

And this is all political parties. And you're not getting to the root of the issue. Like one thing that pops up in my mind is

San Francisco and the homeless crisis that they have. And let's just build them homes. That's the issue.

They don't have homes. And it's like, no, your people are drug addicts. It's like that's not fixing the actual issue.

I think you have to add then security and help and help for these people that you've homed. You can't just put them in one place because then you just created a slum.

And I think, well, yeah, I mean I've been to San Francisco before. Yeah, you've been to San Francisco.

It's awful. So sad. The dude was in the women's bathroom. My wife was there, by the way.

In the women's bathroom? The dude. Well, my wife was not in the bathroom because he was in there. They were not allowed to tell him to leave.

So he's in there. My wife has to use the bathroom, and y 'all won't tell him to leave. Are you being serious?

Was he just hanging out in there? Yes, for a few days. Oh, he was a homeless person in there. Just hanging out there.

But you know what's amazing about—I'm hearing some weird stuff. What's amazing, this is where people have got to focus and not just get brainwashed by secondary things.

I'll use Sarah, for example. Sarah Workman and I, probably on most issues we just brought up, are probably polar opposites.

For example, several of the things she brought up earlier in my brain,

I'm like, well, that's not the state's job. Well, that's not the state's job. But you know what? Those matter so much less than what

Sarah and I do have in common. Well, it should have been the church's job. Exactly. But we didn't do it, so who does it?

We handed it over because it's like, oh, well, they'll handle it. Who doesn't want to shed a responsibility in their life?

I mean, come on. Let's be honest. You know, I'll give you— Well, then too, half the people

I know that volunteer are not Christians. I used to volunteer all the time. Oh, yeah. And that's what people don't understand. I cannot tell you how many times.

And that would make me so mad. I'd be at the manor house where half the people volunteering are gay, and then I'd go to a church and they'd be like, oh, and I'm like, where were you?

Exactly. You go and you tell them that they're wrong when they're doing work and you are what? Just sitting here and making yourself look good.

See, that's my point, though. What Sarah and I have in common, in my mind at least, far outweighs what percentage people should be taxed at.

Like, I don't—it doesn't matter to me. People are so brainwashed to this.

What we have in common far outweighs what we have in opposition, disagreement, whatever.

You know, just a couple points about how the church can do that.

You start with the widows and orphans in your own congregation. Start there.

And I will say this. Not the pastors, but the people of this church have done that.

And I wish I could tell you stories, but I can't for obvious reasons. Confidentiality.

Well, that's one of the reasons I stayed at Whitman. Oh, my gosh. Because I grew up in a big church and I saw there was a community here that took care of each other that I never saw in large churches.

And I'm sure it's harder in large churches. I'm sure, but the excuse for not obeying

God doesn't matter. I know it doesn't matter. And you know, you work from there. You set some boundaries.

The Bible says when dealing with hospitality, anyone who comes into your abode, so I'm using the church as an example, who is hungry shouldn't leave hungry unless one of two things happen.

They choose to or, and I'll just, they didn't conduct themselves properly. I'll just word it that way.

Otherwise, you always offer them something to eat. Always. Things like that.

Financial matters. You know, the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6 when there's two believers who have a financial dispute, the

Bible says, Paul says, why would you take that to an unbelieving judge? There's not someone within your midst that can mediate that.

I've done that several times. So if there's someone out there who's like, well, how can my church start?

You start with in -house, taking care of that, and then work your way out. I think there is a balance in this.

I should want to, the Bible says this over and over again,

I should want to help, what is the word it used?

The brokenhearted. Those who have no other alternative.

I should seek to help those and be a refuge for them. Not against that.

The other part of it is this. When we're dealing with government in general, and we're getting close to wrapping up, so we'll do the last word in a minute.

I have to remember this also. Every human being on planet Earth will answer to the judge of all the

Earth one day. And I have to tell everybody that. From the top, even down.

Every human being must answer to the judge of all the Earth. We're going to have a trunk or treat in a few days.

Well, it starts tonight. In a few hours or minutes. What we do is incredible.

With all the kids, 2 ,000 people last year. But if there's not, in some aspects, a way where we are sharing the truth of the gospel with them, what are we doing?

Hand -knocking. But it's both. It's not simply a sit down and let me tell you a story for 45 minutes.

It's serving. Which speaks far louder than words. It always has. It speaks far louder than words.

So, in summary, last comments. I'll leave them to you ladies. How should a

Christian vote? Sarah, you want your last word? I don't know the way

I vote. Well, you're a Christian, so that's a good start. Let's go. I research the best

I can. And I pray about it. And I try to vote in a way that will hopefully get as close as I can to what

I believe. Like this last vote. I really felt like our country needed unity.

And so when I went to vote, I was like, okay, I don't love all these things. These are cool. This is cool.

This is cool. But this is, okay, this is it. And so I voted for what my conscience and God and more really that.

I just prayed heavily on it. And so I don't know if I did the right thing, but I didn't leave.

You at least took it seriously. Yeah. I did everything I could to make sure that when I left that room, that little box or whatever,

I felt like I did everything I could to make the best decision I could. And I didn't love it. I've never walked out of that box not feeling like I didn't need a shower.

I understand. But it just was like, these are the things I think are crumbling us. And if we can get this right, then maybe these things can maybe all get worked on later.

Because sometimes, and I think every time you vote, like if you take into consideration, like what's going on at the moment, it helps a bit.

Because there's stuff that's like, this has to get fixed, like right now. That's true.

I would say same thing with Sarah. You need to first use the standard of scripture.

Pray about it. And then I was actually reading a John Piper article to prepare for this.

And it was talking about like using your conscience as like a guiding. Like I always think of Pinocchio.

Let your conscience be your guide. Give a little whistle. I remember.

That's Jiminy Cricket, isn't it? Yeah. And so he uses that. And in this article, they say like you can use your conscience.

But it's like sometimes you go with your gut and it's not right. And so it's like you don't want to just, and I'm not saying like going against what you're saying.

I'm just saying if you only go by your conscience and not scripture, like it's not in line with that.

Because I knew my conscience isn't, you know, like I'm like my heart is the worst part of me. You're using scripture as your standard.

And the heart is disgusting. Yeah. And it's like, that's why we have to use scripture to make not even just political decisions with like marriage and raising children.

And like what we should do in the church regarding benevolence and, you know, like all of these things. And so I'm like 100 % with you on actually doing your research of the candidates, not just like going in there and like, oh,

I guess I'm just going to do it. Because that's an irresponsible. You're being irresponsible if you do that. And I will say as an aside, pre -Christian, as a pre -Christian,

I did believe like that, like I didn't understand that those were Christian church roles.

And so in my mind, those were government roles. And they just weren't doing their job. And see.

Like where does morality come from? Because think about it. Because think about it from that perspective for a moment. You've been a

Christian for, don't let me exaggerate, it's five years? Five, six years. Five, six years. I'm a baby. That's okay.

It doesn't matter. Five years. So that should be an indictment to everyone on this planet and to everyone who's listening to this who's been a

Christian living in a nation that used to call itself Christian. Until she got saved five years ago, she didn't even know those were supposed to be the roles of the church.

That's how pathetically, in some regards, not every church, have fulfilled those.

And that's what's changed me so much. Because now that I've been a Christian, I'm seeing like, oh no, oh no, we dropped the ball.

Like we really messed up. And that's why we're here. That's the consequence. We're in the place where women are hurting and children are hurting and people are hurting because we've dropped the ball.

Well, and even like what Pastor said a little bit ago was countries are, nations are punished because of their leadership.

And it's like, and even if you look back on the leadership, like 20, 30 years, like just in that past time, it's like, oh, well, yeah.

Of course, we're being punished as a nation. Oh, I don't think there's, there are a few, I've met them. They're normally under the age of 15.

But most people would all agree that in general, there are better leaders in our past than in, in our past, than in our, than in our past cup two or three goes at it.

I think in general, there are better leaders to look back to. Now.

Oh, yeah. I would agree. I'm like Teddy. Okay. See. JFK. Notorious.

Yeah. Here's what I'd like to say at the end. I think we can all three agree on this one. By the way,

I've said this before. Note that disagreement. There are several things Anna said that I don't exactly agree with.

I agree with everything you said. You said you were going to do that with me. You said before we aired, you were going to do that with me.

Oh, I got confused. I agree with everything you said. Disagreement does not equal disunity.

Right. Disagreement does not equal disunity. You see, we actually had a... And that's disagreement about the gospel.

Right. But at any rate, I think, and I meant to start out with this and I failed. You're supposed to say no,

I didn't. I have to say. Well, you can change it for us. You just disagreed with me. Wait, no. So think about this for a moment.

Good job, Justin. We are so great at blaming leaders. The Bible says,

He didn't say if the king did. We are so great at putting the responsibility of fixing our nation on the leaders.

But the Bible says, The Bible says, Instead of all of us complaining about leadership, which we have a right to, by the way, the

Bible says if we repent, we don't look to a leader to repent for us. The answer to our problems is following God's law, not following our own law.

So while we should care about leadership, and I meant to say this at the beginning, while we should care about leadership and we should vote thoughtfully, as Sarah said, and have some non -negotiables, as Anna said, the point is repentance of Josiah, repentance of Sarah, Anna.

We call our nation to repentance, not just from the top. From all of us. From the bottom to the top.

That's what the Bible, that's what it says. Alright. Anna doesn't like when

I save a topic for next week, so I'm just going to leave it as a surprise. Plus, I don't have to lie because I don't remember what it is. Right.

Hey, Sarah. Thank you for coming on. It's lying. We loved having you. I'm serious. Thank you.

Thank you. You're welcome. Obviously this won't be your last time on. Oh, what am

I doing next time? I haven't decided yet. We'll call you next. I really was glad to have you here.

I'm going to just say, because she already said it, we didn't need a

Christian Democrat, but we needed a Christian -leaning liberal. Unfortunately, I'm not going to say those are getting increasingly harder to find, but those are getting increasingly harder to find with what liberal means in our society now.

Right. I guess that's kind of what you were saying about a 90s liberal person. I heard someone say to me a long time ago, he goes, this is an older guy, it was a lot easier to vote.

He said, in one sense, it was easier to vote 50 years ago, and it was harder.

I think back in the day, when I was growing up, I was taught, even if you don't agree with somebody, you fight for their right to believe in that.

Right. I can have my beliefs and what I believe in, but if I see somebody else getting pushed down, they have the right as well.

Right. I think that was the American way for a really long time. Now, we're just so individualistic now.

Well, but that's the thing, too. You know why? Josiah, shut up. I'm about to say you just cut me off.

I apologize for the fourth time today. That's okay. Thank you for apologizing. You're welcome. That's the thing with this society.

It's like you can't have differing opinions. It's like you're an idiot because you don't believe what I believe.

That is not the case at all. I was working with a guy 10 years ago, and we were 60 seconds into meeting each other.

And I don't remember how. I didn't just say, hey, I'm Josiah. I'm a Christian, but something about that.

And he stopped me. We just met and said, that's all I need to hear. Now, we had to work together for the next week, side by side.

And he goes, I don't need to know anything else about you. You just told me everything I need to know about you. You're misogynistic. You're hateful.

Dude, the amount of— Hatred. There's other words I won't repeat. I just met him.

He knew nothing about me. That's all I knew about Christians. He didn't know that he was going to be working with me all week.

You just stuck your foot in your mouth. I showed him immense kindness, which he did not show me. But I showed him immense kindness.

I really did. And he didn't soften to it, but he did act surprised.

Why am I talking about this? I don't know why you're talking about this. Differing opinions. Yeah, yeah.

So, that kind of stuff's not supposed to be divisive. Disagreement's not supposed to be disunity.

The thing that we should have non -negotiables on as far as in the church or out of the church is the gospel.

So, thank you for being our— You're not really a liberal, but we'll call it a Christian 90s liberal.

Thank you for being our— Thank you for being our resident 90s liberal. And thank you for being the centrist. Almost. I mean,

I'm on the right side, but— Yeah, I was surprised I wasn't more— Left or right side. But I guess that's what's changed in the last six years. Exactly.

I've gone a little more— There are people that would call you a raging right conservative. Yeah, right? Yeah. But yeah,

I was like, oh, that makes it somewhat more libertarian. Who was it? It was Bill Maher that said that the other day. He goes, they call me a right -wing conservative now.

He goes, I haven't changed. Yeah, that's how I felt. That was being a friend. We were talking about that.

We were standing with everybody, and then we woke up one day, and everybody was gone. And calling you—

All the people I've fought for. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I stood in front of places and fought for those people.

And I still will, and I will until I love them. But it was just like, what happened?

Why did everyone go? And you're like, I still love—come back. They created a new group, and you were not a part of it. But that's the modern world we live in.

Everything's so—it reminds me of—I always joke about the heavy metal tree, because there used to be just heavy metal, and then there was thrash metal, and then there was death metal.

And now there's like—and it's like people want to be so individualistic that they can't just be like this.

They also have to be this, and then they have to be this, and they have to be this. I wanted to say that. And then they're so— And we really are out of time, but I am going to say this, because she just brought it up.

I can do that, right? Yeah. Yeah, I can do that. It's America. Same people don't want to listen. They just click off. So watch this, what she just said.

We teach people they are special just the way they are. We teach people you never have to conform to anybody or anything.

You never have to respect any kind of authority. So—so—right. We—and when they read this, we teach so -called believing children this.

Christian parents do this. So when they open this and see that there's a sovereign in the universe that has the right to tell Sarah, Josiah, and Anna what to do in every aspect of their life, they're appalled.

That's the reality of the situation. Since we teach people they're special just the way they are, they never have to respect any authority.

They never have to submit to anybody or anything. I'm my own man. I do what I want. I am a strong, independent woman.

I never have to submit to anybody or anything. Then we act surprised when everyone is so individualistic 20 years later.

That's because they never had to conform to anything. They don't even have to conform in school. They don't have to conform to anything. Oh, and we've glorified being different.

Thank you. The snowflake—Daniel Tiger has a snowflake day episode. We'll not let my son watch it.

It's the dumbest thing. I was an art student, so we were all trying to be weird and different and all the things. But when I look back, we were all just like a bunch of little weird art kids.

There was nothing wrong with that. That's normal. You guys are sweet little nerdy art kids. Lowell, do we need to mention anything else or are we good?

I think we're good. Hey, guys, thank you all for listening to the podcast. Since Sarah has already taken her headphones off, this is where we'll wrap up.

Thank you again for coming on, Sarah. Love you. I mean that, and you're awesome. Thank you. All right.

Ready to do our sign -off? Yeah. Do you know our sign -off? Please don't screw this up like your husband. Yeah, you can do that.

Just say, until next time, deuces. And you can do that. Oh, that's— So until next time— Deuces. Did she say it?

Do it again. Until next time— Deuces. I heard. Yeah. Gonna talk about anarchy?