Cultish - Leaving the Hebrew Israelites - Pt. 1

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Cultish - Leaving the Hebrew Israelites, Pt. 2

00:00

All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish, entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts.

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I'm one of the co -hosts here. I'm here as always with Andrew, the super sleuth of the show. How are you doing, my fellow sleuth?

00:12

Hey, I'm doing great, man. And I'm extremely excited for this episode because the person we're interviewing is actually one of our brothers that goes to our church.

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Yes. God is good. His providence is amazing, right? No, absolutely. And so, Oscar, you would talk with me a couple of weeks ago, and you just shared with me a little bit about your background.

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You were in the Hebrew Israelites for 10 years. Very committed follower, devotee, all of the above.

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And I remember we had lunch and just to kind of get a little bit in depth. And I was like, man, we just got to get you on to just kind of really unload, share your heart because you got a lot to unravel.

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Yeah. So, man, it's a pleasure to have you on. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited to be on. I've been looking forward to the opportunity, and I really thought for some time that the

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Lord would use my testimony in order to shed some light on this false gospel. Yeah. And I think it's really important, and I'm happy to be able to do it.

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Yeah. Yeah, definitely, man. So, maybe we can start because, I mean, a lot of people have had perceptions of the

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Hebrew Israelites. Typically, you'll see, like my first time I heard about them, I think it was just some video footage.

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And there you have usually several men who are usually lined up. They've got one or two

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Bibles. They're kind of sharing a back and forth with each other. You're talking as one who did that, right? Absolutely, absolutely.

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And sometimes they have almost like a rug set out and they have usually, but on it, they have just a lot of what they're trying to propagate as far as what they believe about who true

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Israel is, all that sort of stuff. And so, I've always just been fascinated just because it seems to me that it's just something that has really exploded almost in the last, really the last decade or so.

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In fact, we're here in Phoenix, and I remember Amari Stoudemire, who used to play for the Phoenix Suns, he now is, from my understanding, he's a dedicated

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Hebrew Israelite as well too. So, yeah, maybe we can start just from the very beginning of when it started.

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So, you're 28 now. So, you went in when you were 18.

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Yeah, so it was almost 10 years. It was about eight and a half years. Okay. Yeah. So, at 18, my uncle had shared a

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DVD with me that he had got from another uncle that got it from like some kind of parade.

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I guess they were out there passing out DVDs. And it was really intriguing to him. It kind of fits some of the thoughts that he had already had, some kind of preconceived notions about...

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I think what happens is black people, because they feel disenfranchised and they feel this kind of burden of this history of slavery and things in this country, civil rights movement, the response to that is to look at themselves and see what is special about them and find some type of identity in something that kind of corresponds with a higher level of their view for themselves, if that makes sense.

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So, that's why things like black Hebrew Israelites and things like black Muslims, that's why it attracts so much of these people in these kinds of positions.

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So, it was the same for me. I was going to church when I was younger and I wasn't very...

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I was intrigued by the Bible, but my family wasn't really churchgoers per se. We went, but it kind of stopped on Sunday when we left.

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And so, when this came to me, when my uncle brought it to me, it just kind of fit, it nudged right in with some of the things that I was already thinking about and answered some questions that I already had.

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Yeah. So, you also mentioned too, when we had lunch, that you grew up in a single parent household and that was your mom who raised you.

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So, in many ways, you had talked about how there is almost sort of this father hunger that really played a huge role in getting into the

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Hebrew Israelites. Can you talk about that? Yeah. I think it goes back to identity. You look at your father to kind of tell you who you are and look at him and kind of draw your identity from who he is.

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And when that's lacking, you tend to look elsewhere. And not feeling an identity per se in the

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Bible, just not having a proper understanding of the gospel. That's when this thing was able to come and sweep me off my feet and give me place, give me purpose, give me an identity.

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And it kind of, like I said, it just fit in right where there was a void. It fit that void and gave me that identity.

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And therefore, I felt like it gave me a purpose. Yeah. What would you say then, as you're getting into it, was there a level, it was initially just the camaraderie of everyone giving yourself that unique sense of identity and sort of the camaraderie and the brotherhood that is there?

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But how did it work as far as just wanting that, but also starting to get their understandings and their beliefs essentially being discipled in the way of the

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Hebrew Israelites and getting a lot of the scriptures that we'll talk about is something that you might have read those previously, maybe growing up in church or hearing those in passing, but you started reading those in a very different light.

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Can you talk about that? In a totally different lens, absolutely. So coming into it, like I said, I first became privy to the teachings through DVDs, right?

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And that's a lot of how their proselytizing works. One thing

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I'll say is all the videos that I've watched from you guys, cults, they evangelize hard, right?

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And so that's the same thing with the Black Hebrew Israelites. They're out on the street, they're calling people to this false gospel.

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And so getting these DVDs, that was for a long time, that was my only means of hearing the teachings, teaching,

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I'm sorry, was receiving DVDs. There was no actual congregation for a long time.

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I would say about half of my time, I would say about four years, there was no congregating at all.

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I didn't know where anyone was at. I didn't know how to congregate, right? There was DVDs. And during this time, GCC was setting up in all these various cities, elders based on people that go through their

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Hebrew Bible Academy. And they correspond with these people and they raise up elders, right?

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In all these various different cities. So at the time I was in Michigan, the time that I came to this knowledge and to this theology, that's when they were actually setting up that church there.

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So the elder in Detroit, we were in it for the same amount of time. He was getting lifted up at that same time.

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There was no congregate. Yeah. You know what's funny too, is that you think about how fast technology is evolving. So even just 10 years ago, the fact just DVDs being handed out.

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It's like anyone who's a Gen Z, a very younger, like who have their iPhone, like what?

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Right. Just hand out DVDs. Like really? There was no YouTube or anything. They weren't using YouTube or anything at that point.

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Eventually they were, but it was very, before that it was cassettes, you know, passing them out, you know? Right. So this is what's also fascinating,

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Andrew, any questions you have, you can also jump in as well too. But when you're talking about GCC, so this is the branch of the

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Hebrew Israelites that you really got into. Once that accumulated, it went from watching these

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DVDs to eventually getting into this, would they call it a fellowship or what do they call their churches?

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GCC stands for Gathering of Christ Church. But typically like the term that most of the

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Hebrews use are camps. So GCC would be one camp, ISUBK would be another camp,

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IUIC would be another camp. They don't typically use church though, even though it's in their title, they don't typically use that.

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So they would usually say a camp or organization. Right. Yeah. So where did it all begin?

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I mean, so you got into this, let me ask you this. So this is one of the many, many branches.

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Many. So maybe you could explain to like what, what's some of the reasons why there's so many different scores, why there's different, so many different sex or scores of different, we might call them like denominations or not even that, just people who believe they have the fullness of the truth.

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And they all think that they have the truth. This is the home of the truth. Yeah. Talk about that first. Okay. So like I was saying earlier before we started recording, there is, this goes back to like late 18th century, people teaching, you know,

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African slaves looking in the Bible and corresponding their own experiences with that of Israel.

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Right. Now, from that time, you have, you have a lot of different people that kind of, that kind of build on the same theology, but present day, it comes down to a guy named

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Wentworth Arthur Matthew. He starts the, a group called the commandment keepers in 1919.

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Right. And the guy that is the father of ISUBK, who starts ISUBK, which all of these groups branch from ISUBK.

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He leaves the commandment keepers and he starts ISUBK in 1969. So initially he says 1919.

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1919 commandment keepers. Yeah. What state was that? Did that originate in the United States in 1919?

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This guy was from the West Indies, but he was a immigrant to, he lived in New York, New York city, which is also a reason why you see it explode so much because there's so many people there.

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Yep. So New York city, he starts this in 1919 and then they are also very, a lot closer to Orthodox Judaism, right?

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There's no, they don't believe in Christ. They don't believe in Christ as Messiah. So when this thing gets started,

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Christ is not a part of it. Christ gets added later. Right. Okay. So then you get to, from Wentworth Arthur Matthew, you get to a guy named

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Abba Bivens and Abba Bivens is who is considered the father of this present day black Hebrew Israelite theology.

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ISUBK in 1969. And from that point on, he appoints seven elders and these seven elders, eventually they start to consider themselves to be reincarnated figures of the

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Bible. I'm King David, I'm King Solomon, I'm Peter. Oh wow. Yeah. And that's where a lot of those divisions start.

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So what are some of the basic assumptions then, like the foundation of the black

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Hebrew Israelites, if we go from 1919 to 1969, like just so for listeners who aren't well versed with what they believe, like what are the foundation assumptions that they hold?

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Okay. Foundationally, what almost all of them would agree on is that blacks,

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Latinos and native Americans are true descendants of Israel. Israel that has been dispersed throughout the four corners of the earth.

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And you see a lot of that spoken above in the scripture. And they pointed at saying that that is us, right?

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Transatlantic slave trade is something that takes place starting around the 15th, 16th century.

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And they would say these Africans that are taken from the Ivory Coast are from a community of people that migrated there from the time of 70

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AD. So 70 AD happens, all of these Israelites disperse into Africa, this is their belief, and they end up in the

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Ivory Coast. And there's a distinction, there's a very sharp distinction between Africans who they consider to be

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Hamites and Israelites or black people who they consider to obviously be from Shem.

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That is not to be confused. A lot of groups, they point to Africans and they say they don't like them because they believe that those are some of the people that propagated their slavery, that sold them into slavery as warring tribes.

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So I would say that that's really the fundamental belief is blacks, Latinos and native Americans are true

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Israelites. And all those promises in scripture pertain to them individually. Right.

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So, so upon the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD in the temple, they were dispersed out and that's how they, okay.

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Interesting. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And so from there, and this would also explain a lot too, when they, when they go into the, in Deuteronomy, so in Deuteronomy, when they talk about, is it

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Deuteronomy 32, you're talking about when we were having lunch, it was the... Deuteronomy 28. 28. Yes. And this is where, this is where they believe about the, it was a migration of slaves.

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Can you, can you talk about that? Cause this is, this is one of those things too, that I've, when you're just sharing this with me, this is the first time

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I've ever seen it through that lens. And this is just something, and really whatever cult that you're dealing with, there always is a language barrier.

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So if you are going about your merry day and there's a group out,

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I remember like I said, I remember being out in Michigan for my friend Elliot's wedding and walking by and looking outside a window at a restaurant, there they were doing their thing, handing that Bible back and forth.

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You go up to someone like that, they are going to be viewing a Bible, any sort of Bible passages that you would normally read in a typical light.

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They read it very, very differently. Totally different interpretations using the same Bible though. For sure.

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Right. And, and just to point to that really quick, what they do, and obviously we know it's proof texting, but they point to Isaiah 28 and 11 and they say, the

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Bible is to be interpreted, what is it says, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

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So that's, that's kind of the way that they use the Bible. They jump around.

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And we know that there's parallel texts that we can use to give foundation to certain doctrines, right? But the way that they use it, it's not within context of the entirety of scripture, right?

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So they point to these few texts here and they build a whole doctrine on it. Without consenting to the, you know, the whole, the whole work of scripture.

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So, speaking about Deuteronomy 28, Deuteronomy 28 is, I would say it, it, their, their theology hinges upon this hinges upon Deuteronomy 28, because they would say, okay, we know in scripture,

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Israelites break the covenant, right? Which is kind of weird because they are acting as if there is still that same covenant, but they break this covenant and the curses for breaking the covenant are listed in Deuteronomy 28.

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So what they would say is you look at the curses and look at who the curses apply to in the world. And that's how you find out who the

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Israelites are. So they go through all of these curses. And there's many of them, but the biggest one will be 28 and 68, when it says, you will be sent into Egypt again with ships.

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And so they would say, Egypt is the land of bondage. It doesn't actually mean Egypt, right? It's a figurative, it's a figurative name.

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And that actually means America. Black people are sent into America, which is

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Egypt, the land of bondage in ships. So that's kind of how they believe. Wow. I mean, if you talk about history, is there a reason why they focus in on just America?

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When you look at just the history of colonialism, I mean, you see slavery worldwide. I mean, you have a

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Christian, William Wilberforce, who was very adamant, spoken out against the slave trade. And that's something that's totally outside of the

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United States. What's the reason for the focus in on America? Is that just because it started here in the

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United States in the 1920s? Is that sort of - That's one of them. They don't only focus on America.

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They would point to South America as well. The new world, they would really point to. But not to say that there aren't people that go into Europe and other places like that.

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They'll look at even some, like one of the tribes that they believe navtali is

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Hawaiians and Samoans, people from New Zealand. So it's not just there, but that's where it starts.

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So that's where most of the focus is. But they'll look at people from all corners of the earth and these people are Israelites. Indigenous people from Australia, they'll say that those are

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Israelites as well. Interesting question that I'm just thinking in my head right now is, how do they account for then, let's say the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70

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AD, then there's a dispersion that happens. What about history where there would have to be a gap, like maybe gospel was lost or something was lost throughout this 1800 years, all of a sudden until, let's say the 18th century and then into 1919.

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How do they account for that history, that missing piece? I got you. When they go into Africa, they would say that though they fell away, they fell away from serving the

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Lord properly. And that we see in the curse, or they believe that 70 AD is a curse upon them.

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And that they fell away into idol worship. And that basically they lost their identity through that falling away into idol worship.

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So that by the time they come to America, they no longer remember who they are. And then you add slavery onto that and it's totally wiping away their identity.

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So I believe it's Psalm chapter, I can't remember what the chapter, but it says, let us blot them off from being a nation so that the name of Israel may be no more.

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And so basically they would believe that the whole world is under this conspiracy to hide the identity of Israel from Israelites.

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See, this is what I find really interesting too. And I think about flat earthers, I feel listening to some of the things that I hear from the black

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Hebrew Israelites, it's almost like the flat earth of a Christian cult in the sense.

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I know a lot of flat earthers as well would claim to be Christians, but in terms of history and that there's a grand conspiracy against them, it's very similar.

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You have to unlearn everything in order to fit into the... Right. And it seems to me they also, they make a distinction that, and this is what we're leading to is eventually there's a dialogue between James White, a couple of years ago, took place in the dividing line between him and just, tell me his name again.

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Rakah. Yes. So there was a conversation between them and I noticed in that dialogue and that conversation is that there seems to be almost this distinction or dualism between the real

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Israelites and the history that's there, but also this pagan

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Christianity that's derived from the white man, that's all derailed from pagan sources. And so in many ways, a lot of the typical claims and conspiracies, there's just sort of pseudo history that even you see people that the new age refer to, they appeal to that.

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So the idea that we got all our ideas from Nimrod and then you're talking about how

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Easter's pagan, Christmas is pagan. I found it fascinating that he was making those similar appeals.

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Yeah, yeah. It's very conspiratorial in their view of history.

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If you notice during that debate, pastor James kept saying, okay, you need to give me sources.

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There are no sources though, right? They'll find a couple of books here and there. And then when he brought these books up, pastor

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James was like, man, these aren't respected anywhere. No scholars look at these books as something that's respected. One of them was the 13th tribe.

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And he's like, no one considers that book to have any type of authority on the topic. And then they go, there's another book that he mentioned called the

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Illuminati too. Just some books that are really out there. And they'll find these books and again, they'll hinge doctrine on this stuff.

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But it's really finding stuff that already corresponds to what they believe. They have a belief system.

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They have all of these preconceived notions, these presuppositions and they go and they look for stuff to correspond to it.

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No, that definitely makes sense. In fact, this is what I was curious about as well too, when it comes to how they view ancient languages.

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And this is a distinction that was made just again, we're kind of just giving a very broad overview because there's so many areas that you can go in very deep and then zoom out.

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We're trying to just get a brief overview. So a lot of cults as well too. There's sort of this, almost this dogmatic, we have to adhere to the

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King James version only. So many of them are like that. Yeah. Yeah.

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And so that's just my experience. So even when I saw this, I'm like, Oh, it's another one, another group that's into the

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King James. I like reading it occasionally. It's just, it's got some language that's very different from how

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I talk. It's very poetic, you know, and very Shakespearean, I guess, as you'd say.

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But what's the distinct, like, what's the appeal to that? Because it seems to me that there would be, because when you talk about like one is apostolic and the one is

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Pentecostals, at least they try on some level to go to the Greek, right?

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Or they're trying to explain their modalistic views. And they have a backwards where they go to the

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New Testament and then take what's in the new back to the old, but at least they're going to the, they're trying to make an argument from the original sources, from the original languages in the

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Greek. But with this, it seems to me like, why, why are they appealing to something written all these hundreds of years later versus the original source if, or even

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Hebrew, since they are the true Hebrew Israelites? There's two points that I'll say on that. One is they believe

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King James is a black man and they believe King James commissioned the translation from the Greek and the

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Hebrew in order to give the Bible to true Hebrew Israelites. And so that's their affinity. One part of the affinity for the

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King James is that he's a black man. We're going to read the one that he gave to us. If you heard during that debate, he kept saying, this is our

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Bible. These are our scriptures, right? They, they, they lay claim to it and they say, he's the one that gave it to us.

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Right. The other thing is when it comes down to language, they, they'll go into the language a little bit, but it's, it's not any type of in -depth study that's going to bring clarity.

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I would say the way that they view the King James is, is the closest thing to the original language.

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And that's why they subscribe to that, you know, and then when you start getting into other NIV, ESV, they'll say that these are versions that were translated by people who were trying to hide the truth for them.

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Everything is conspiratorial, you know. Okay. So, so for group, the, the camp, like it's

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GOCC for them there, there's, there's a term I'd like for you to address in terms of non -Messianic and Messianic.

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I know you spoke about it a little bit earlier. In terms of GOCC, I know listening to that debate and he was talking, that man was talking about how

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King James was a, a black man. I know there's other camps that don't hold to that view at all. So, but the, but the, mainly the difference comes between being non -Messianic and Messianic.

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Can you explain that real quick and then explain what GOCC does with Jesus, who Jesus is specifically in relation to the

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Godhead? Absolutely. Okay. So Messianic and non -Messianic is really comes down to the ones who are non -Messianic are a lot closer to Orthodox Jewish faith and they, and they handle the scriptures in a lot of the same way.

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They just believe that they are a part of these chosen people. But outside of that, I would say they deal with it in a lot of the same way.

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The Messianic ones, which GOCC was Messianic, they interpret it, they interpret scripture, but they lean heavily on the

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Old Testament to give, to give light to what the Old Testament is saying. I mean, the New Testament is like, right. Instead of how we look at the

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New Testament and we interpret it from there, the Old Testament, they, they would do the opposite. They read

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Deuteronomy 28 into the New Testament. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Keep going. Keep going. And so as far as the figure of Christ, they would reject the

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Trinity. They would reject the Immaculate Conception, virgin birth. They would reject

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Christ divinity altogether. Right. And I would say it's, it's like, you know, theistic, it's like God, the father, and then

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Christ and the Holy Spirit under him. They're lesser. Lesser. Right. So I don't know if you remember the word that he kept using was

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Alahayim, which is Elohim. And that's the language that they use that the Hebrew, they would say Alahayim.

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Right. And they would say that Christ is a power or Christ is a God, but not the God. Right.

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And therefore he is not to be worshiped. Right. That would be wicked. And from their perspective.

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Right. So Pastor J points them to Revelation chapter five, when all, all creation is worshiping

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Christ. It was like, yeah, that's not really worship though. They're really worshiping the father.

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You know, the son is just with him kind of thing. Or you point to Thomas, you know, calling him, you know, my

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God, you know, they, they, they reject all of that. Thomas was scared. Right. He was giving, he was cursing. Right.

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Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So when they, when, so they view Jesus and they, they see, they saw, they see

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Jesus as, as a black man as well too. And this is what I'm curious about too is, and also they mentioned like King James, are there, are there other prominent figures in church history?

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I mean, typically in their worldview, they would see anything that would be against their ideology as a conspiracy made up by, by the white man to suppress the truth of who the real

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Israelites were. Right. Are there any other prominent figures that they believe that about the apostle Paul or? All the prominent figures.

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All the prominent figures. All biblical prophets, all apostles, all of these people are black people.

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What about any other church fathers like Augustine, Martin Luther? They don't even, they don't deal with that.

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They don't. So they totally, and I think I see this in a lot of cults, especially ones that subscribe to any type of biblical foundation.

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They, they separate from any type of authoritative teaching that comes before them so that they can have the last word and interpretation.

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See, if you start referencing guys like Augustine, right, and Ignatius, you start going to these early church fathers, what you're going to have is people that are correcting your theology.

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Right. Right. I was listening to, to, I think it was a Paul Washer and he was talking about when he's interpreting a text, he's like,

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I go through all of the commentaries. I go to all the early church fathers and I see what they say about these texts. And if I'm the one that's wrong, then

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I'm sticking out like a sore thumb, then I'm probably not right about this. All of these guys are, you know, they totally get away from any like that.

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So there's no authority over them in the way that they interpret scripture. They have the last word. It's special revelation. You know, and, and to think like in their argument,

25:59

Jerry, they'd say, well, after 70 AD, it's like there was, there was judgment that occurred and there were certain things that were lost and now it's being reawakened to actually have the knowledge and the truth.

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So they're just waking up now and now line upon line, precept upon precept, it's coming into the fullness of the truth of the

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Hebrew Israelite. Now, right. All of that, that whole history from 70 AD to early 20 or late 20th century, all of that is pagan, right?

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That's, that's pagan Christianity. The truth, the biblical faith is only just now coming to fruition.

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And so, so going back to the person of Jesus and their view of who

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Jesus Christ is. So Jesus Christ was a black man. He was a

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God and he's a God to be revered, but not one to be specifically worshiped. They would say he's a son of God, but he is not

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God himself. Okay. So, but would he, in a sense, would they believe in the incarnation is that there was a God who is fully

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God or fully man, or what do they believe about that in the version birth and Mary? They wouldn't say,

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I think they would reject saying that he's fully God. They wouldn't use the term God with him, right? If you press them, then they'll say, okay, he's a

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God, but that's after pressing them. Originally they would just say he is, he's the son of God.

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And that's the distinction that they'll make. He's the word of God, but that's not God himself. Right. So they would, they would, they would only use that term

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God if they were pressed on it. So pastor James presses them on it. Right. And he eventually says, well, he is a God, but he is not the

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God, you know, same with the Holy spirit. They would say the Holy spirit is a feminine counterpart of the masculine father.

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And the same thing, a kind of a God, a power is really the term that they use power, right? A power, but not the original source.

27:42

And he even said, and after I watched this again, I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't even pay attention to this the first time he even said that Christ was created, right?

27:51

That there was a time that Christ didn't exist. So that would give some insight as to why they believe what they believe. So, so quick question for you.

27:57

So it's going to come to a surprise to many people, but I'm a white guy. Anyways, say, say

28:03

I'm listening to the Hebrew Israelites, right? The masonic ones from the GOCC. And all of a sudden I'm, I'm believing what they say.

28:10

Right. What, what, how is salvation offered to me? Right. So since Jesus is a

28:15

God, not God, right. Is there an aspect to where salvation can't really fully be for all peoples when, uh, specifically it's for certain tribes, like there's a continuity that they're breathing from the old

28:30

Testament into the new Testament in terms of skin color and tribe. It's like, how would it work for me as a white man?

28:35

If all of a sudden I wanted to be part of the GOCC. Right. So they would say that salvate, there's a hierarchy in salvation, right?

28:43

It's not that other people, some groups, some groups would say no other people outside of Israel had to be saved.

28:49

Right. Um, but GOCC in particular, there's a hierarchy. So they'll say Christ only came for Israel and they'll point to the scripture when

28:56

Christ says only come for the lost sheep, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Right. Don't say, look at this. He said it right there and totally negate

29:01

Matthew. Right. You know, Matthew 28, when he says, go out and make disciples of all the nations. Sheep not of this fold as well. Right.

29:07

Yeah, exactly. Many, many, many scriptures. Right. Um, but they would say Christ came for Israel, right.

29:12

And that Israel is going to be made into a nation of Kings and priests. And this gets into the eschatology. They say when Christ comes back, he's going to rule for a thousand years.

29:19

Israel will rule, rule with him, reign with him as Kings and priests. And that all other nations of people who are saved will be servants in that a thousand year, uh, that, that, that millennial reign.

29:30

So they have a greater salvation, greater salvation. And they will say, we served here, right.

29:36

We served in this, in this world. And therefore all Gentiles are going to serve us in the next world. Wow. Yeah.

29:41

And so when you're talking about them being Kings and priests, is that sort of carry over to why they wear, we, when we, we made a post on social media and usually if you type in Hebrew Israelites or black

29:51

Hebrews lights on and in the Google search bar, especially go to images, you'll see all sorts of very elaborate, colorful garb that, that plays into that then.

30:00

Absolutely. That plays into that as well as to them just trying to get back to, uh, uh, original clothing and it gets really out there.

30:08

There's nothing about it that's original, but they get, you know, they look like power Rangers out there. So another, another question,

30:13

I think it begs the question, I think listeners would be thinking this too. So for the non -Messianic groups, um, what about the sacrificial system?

30:19

What about the Levitical priesthood? What about, um, the, the temple? What about all of those things? Right, right, right.

30:24

What's going on with that? I'm not really sure about that. That's been my question to actual Jewish people as well is if you don't believe in Christ and his ultimate fulfillment and the sacrifice, there's no temple you can't sacrifice.

30:37

I'm not really sure how, how they reconcile that because once the temple falls, you can't keep these commandments.

30:43

It's impossible, you know? So I'm not exactly sure what they do in that regard and, and how they kind of feel like they are in good standing with the

30:49

Lord if they're not obeying those laws. You'd think you'd have to trace back your Levitical priesthood, right?

30:55

Have to follow the same laws that were given to Moses. Yeah. I'm not,

31:00

I'm not totally sure. It's interesting. It's an interesting thing to think about. They have to do something with it. You'd think. Right, right. They have to make sense of it somehow.

31:06

Oh wait. Okay. Maybe, maybe it goes back to like, you were telling us earlier, which maybe you can talk about this in terms of the chart that says which tribe they are from.

31:14

Maybe they use something like that to say this sect of people right here comes from this tribe. Right. And that is Messianic ones though.

31:20

Oh, okay. That's not non -Messianic. Don't use that. Wow. Right, right. So talk about that then. Messianic Hebrew Israelites, they will have a chart and they'll say like, black people are from Judah, Puerto Rican people are from Ephraim, Cuban people are from Nassau, Pacific Islanders are

31:36

Naftali. And they go through these 12 tribes and they point to specific people in the world today and, and how they fit into this, to this, you know, this tribal system.

31:47

And they, then they go to Genesis 49 and try to make sense of it. Mexican people are Issachar. And they will say that white people are

31:54

Edomites, which will kind of explain this tension between what they would say, this tension between black and white people, slavery and all of that.

32:02

They'll say that points to the tension between Esau and Jacob in the Bible and how this has always been that same tension.

32:08

It's never gone anywhere. Even throughout their posterity, they're still upholding that same tension, you know, believing that Jacob stole the birthright and Edomites is mad about it.

32:17

And so he's suppressing him throughout all of history. He's suppressing him for that same thing. No, I feel like this, I'm going to,

32:22

I'm sort of going down the very, the educational rabbit hole of all things. This is fascinating, man.

32:29

So now I think too, is that, so they do believe Jesus died on a cross and did they believe in the resurrection that he rose from the dead three days later?

32:37

Yeah. They believe they do believe that, but then they don't, they don't believe in Sunday worship.

32:43

Right. Right. They, they, they hold to the Sabbath. So, so he, so they believe that they worship on Saturday, similar to seventh day

32:49

Adventist. Sunday is a pagan day to worship. That's when the religions worshiped. Absolutely. Okay.

32:54

That's what, that's their claim. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we're going to go, we have any really, we've kind of sort of elaborated a little bit of their, of their idea of salvation, but what do they believe was accomplished on the cross when

33:07

Christ went there? I mean, as Christians, we would have the answer for that, but in regards to defining, defining terms, when

33:12

Jesus Christ goes to the cross, he dies in the accounts of all the gospels. If I'm talking, if I just go, if we, if I went out tomorrow and they're out of mill

33:21

Avenue over here and they're talking, and I bring up, start talking about Christ crucified. What's the mindset of someone like that you were for 10 years?

33:29

Right. This, well, this is interesting. One is election. They believe in election, but that election is

33:35

Israel. Right. Right. That is God's elect Israelites. That's one. Number two, when it comes to the death and resurrection of Christ, what's interesting is that their gospel, when they're out proselytizing, they're not preaching the gospel.

33:50

They're not preaching Christ died for your sins. You're a sinner before Holy God, you know, repent and believe that's not the gospel.

33:55

Their gospel is who is your father? These nations, these nations of people are the original people of Israel returned to the law so that you might be saved.

34:05

Wow. Right. That's their gospel. The gospel you're going to get to Christ. They talk about Christ. It'll be later.

34:11

It won't be in that original spill that they give you. Right. Wow. So Christ dying on the cross and resurrecting right.

34:16

And his death being for the remission of sins. What's interesting about that is there's no talk of regeneration.

34:23

Right. There's no talk of dying to self and living in Christ. They don't talk like that. They don't feel like they need to die to the self.

34:28

Right. They feel like they need to be restored to their former glory. Right. So Christ dies and they believe him to be a savior.

34:36

But again, that is primarily for Israel, only secondarily for anyone else.

34:41

But there's no they don't really dig into that, though. Right. Really, the gospel is who you are, your bloodline, even though the

34:47

Bible tells us not to strive in genealogy. That's right. Wow. Yeah. So in other words, that Christ in their worldview is that Christ died in order to give them their bring them back to their origin, their true identity as a as a true

35:02

Israelite. Absolutely. And the breaking of the covenant that took place. That's what he died for.

35:08

Only the breaking of the they would say the covenant is with Israel and therefore only Israel needs a savior because the law is only given to Israel.

35:17

So Israel broke the covenant. And so Christ only came for those who broke that covenant. OK, so just a quick question to which which covenant are we talking about in terms of the covenant that was broken when when

35:27

Moses leads the Israelites out of Egypt and they're about to go into the promised land and they send out. OK, they they send out the spies and then they're scared and they want to go back.

35:34

There's no right. There's no thought of like an Adamic covenant. There's no thought of a covenant of works prior to Moses.

35:41

They don't they don't deal with that. That's why that book was so interesting that we were reading and you heard the questions I was asking. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:47

Because that's digging into covenant theology and they have no concept of that. OK. They don't have an understanding that there is a broken covenant prior to Moses.

35:54

OK. Right. So that's kind of what it comes down to. Now, as you said earlier, both Andrew and I, we are as I think we're about as Edomite as you can get.

36:03

Yeah. So but but when it comes to the theology wise, like I would be viewed as an

36:09

Edomite. So when it comes to Christ, the Christ of the Hebrew Israelites, this false

36:14

Christ, and he's there to give their identity as the as the as being part of the these authentic, true

36:23

Hebrew Israelites or the true Israelites. But here we are out really Edomites or even

36:28

Gentiles or really almost how Jews would view Samaritans back in the in the

36:34

New Testament times. That's actually what they would point to. Yeah, that's what I would be. I would also be a Samaritan.

36:39

I would be a Samaritan. But the way they will say, look, look, Christ called her a dog. Right. And that kind of goes into the verbiage that they use for Gentiles.

36:48

If you remember during that conversation that Ricard has with Pastor James, he kept saying Gentile, very derogatory.

36:54

He meant it in a derogatory way. Yeah. You know, so yeah, that would kind of go into that language and kind of this this overall view of Edomites as as an enemy of the nation of Israel.

37:06

Yeah. So can I as an Edomite be saved? Only if you acknowledge that I am an Israelite and you come under subjection to me as an authority.

37:14

Yeah, that's a. Otherwise, you're living a lie. And when Christ comes back, he's going to come to save Israel and exact punishment on all those people who did not acknowledge, you know, who the people were and come under that subjection.

37:29

Yeah. So here's what's interesting, too, is that I remember, you know, one of the things that I love when Pastor James talks about how the early

37:35

Christians, when they shared the Lord's Supper together, that you had people from, you know, like the movie characters, you would have had like Maximus.

37:43

Right. You know, Leonidas. Right, right. Like Ragnar Lothbrok, like the pagan Nordic Viking.

37:49

Right. Like all these people, they're all this tribalism where they were, you know, they all did terrible things to each other, but they're all they're seeing all equals under the table of Christ.

37:59

It seems, however, that even if I was this is just my conjecture. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that if I were to agree to the terms, sign the contract and make myself in subjugation to that,

38:13

I even with my acknowledgement of that and that now being my identity, we still wouldn't be seen as equals.

38:19

I would be seen still even with full submission. I would be seen in subjugation due to the color of my skin.

38:27

Correct. You could never teach. You could never have any type of authoritative position in the congregation of the church.

38:34

There would be no equality in that sense. You could partake, but you could never, you know, be in any, you know, any eldership or deacon.

38:43

You could never do that. It's almost like you're in preparation to serve. Exactly. When salvation is, when the millennial reign occurs.

38:50

Absolutely. I have a question. So what, what does the GOCC, just because we're speaking

38:56

Messianic camp specifically, what do they do with the letters of Paul? Like, for example, it seems like, well,

39:02

I know that they, they, they read the old Testament into the news. There's probably a lens they interpret Paul through, but it's hard to read

39:08

Paul any differently. Like in Ephesians three, he talks about the mystery of Christ. I'm just going to read it real quick and put your black

39:14

Hebrew Israel lens on. It says, when you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations, as it has now been revealed to his

39:23

Holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body and partakers of the promised in Christ Jesus through the gospel of this gospel.

39:34

I was made a minister according to the gifts of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.

39:39

Right. Same body. Right. Same body. Okay. Now I'm going to tell you what they do with this. Okay. They would consider almost all of the references to Gentiles in the epistles in the new

39:50

Testament to be Israelites that had fallen away, that have been, that have been, um, um, you know, they've, they've, they've merged into these other cultures.

40:00

Oh, okay. So Hellenistic, Hellenistic, Hellenistic Jews. Exactly. Okay. So that they're Gentiles according to the flesh.

40:05

Right. And so that they need to be reawakened. So they're not, they're not spiritual

40:11

Gentiles. They're just Gentiles of the flesh. Right. They're, they're, they're not actually Gentiles, but they live like Gentiles.

40:16

And so therefore the, the, the epistles are addressing these people who are actually Jews, but are living like Gentiles.

40:23

Wow. That's a stretch, but okay. Wow. Yeah. All right. That's what, that's their answer. Yeah. All right.

40:28

So I got a question too, you're talking, you're reading from Ephesians. I was thinking about how they, I'm trying to get, I'm trying to grasp the mindset of how they think, you know, you say a word,

40:37

I'm going to think one thing like Paul, a bondservant of Christ Jesus, immediately the idea of bondservants, even the slavery that's mentioned in the

40:44

New Testament, they're going to have a different way they view it. So, I mean, look at like Philemon, like that story, like how, like how does a

40:52

Hebrew Israelite, would you look at something like Philemon and did you have a mindset and how you'd interpret that when you're in the

40:57

Hebrew's life? So what did that look like? You mean, as far as, are you saying as far as like history goes in the way that they view like slavery?

41:06

Yeah. But also just when, in the New Testament, when, when just the, the terms of verbiage and you also, when you have all the

41:12

Philemon is regarding someone who is a slave, right. But then you also, you have the terms, you know, a slave of Christ, you know, slaves to sin, slaves to Christ.

41:22

I'm trying to think of like, that would be a word that a Hebrew Israelite, if I'm having a discussion with them, they're going to view that very differently versus myself who would view that.

41:33

They're not going to have a whole lot. They're not going to speak about that too much as far as being slaves to Christ, but they would acknowledge that Christ is a

41:41

King, but they would more so look at themselves as, you know, what the scripture says, fellow heirs, right.

41:46

But, but the word slave, they're not going to really look at themselves in that way. You know, there's a, there's a, there's a lot of baggage that comes with that word, especially for black people.

41:55

So that's stay away from, but again, when it comes down, they would look at that and probably look at a means by which they're going to rule over other nations.

42:05

And they'll say, we're not going to be bad masters, right? So slavery is not going to be bad for the

42:11

Gentiles that are in the millennial reign, right? Because we're going to be good masters. Right. So they would say it would be different from slavery that had taken place throughout history, especially the transatlantic slave trade.

42:21

Wow. So they take versus like in Colossians chapter four masters, treat your bond servants, justly and fairly knowing that you also have a master in heaven.

42:29

They're like, why will? Right, exactly. They'll say, they'll say the people that had us enslaved, they did not. But when

42:34

Christ returns, we will. Right. So in other words, they will, they will rule over the

42:40

Edomites, but they're going to rule over in a just way versus the unjust way via the slave trade.

42:49

Wow. That's, that's incredible. So yeah, I mean, there's a lot, there's, I mean, there's, there's so much to unravel here.

42:55

I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of where, of where to jump from here. So you obviously grew up in this and there was a while where,

43:03

I don't know, do you have any unique stories of when you went out to evangelize or just some interactions? I mean, just give me some examples of what that was like.

43:09

Yeah. So evangelizing on the street, you know, out there with a Bible and someone's saying read, and then another person is yelling and, you know,

43:18

I've done all of that, you know, I've done all of that. And, um, I mean, I don't think I have any stories per se, um, in particular, but just the means, the thing that always caught my attention, uh, regarding that is just how, how prevalent they are in doing so right.

43:34

And how, what it's doing is if people don't have a proper understanding of the gospel, right.

43:39

Again, it's filling a void. So, so I would say, uh, black people, when they look at slavery and they look at civil rights movement and things like that, they'll say, okay, the people who are teaching me the

43:50

Bible are not making sense of this event in history. Right. They're not, they're not, um, they're not touching on these topics to bring clarity as to why this might've happened.

44:00

Right. So this, there was a, there's actually a, a rapper who was a Christian and who had just recently, he had acknowledged himself to be a black keeper.

44:08

What's the guy's name? I think, I think I've heard of him in passing. Um, his name is, uh, Eshaan Burgundy. Do you know?

44:14

Yes. I've heard. And he's just full blown going to, you know, Hebrews or like theology.

44:19

Now, um, I think a huge part of that, a huge part of that is not understanding God's sovereignty.

44:25

They have no concept of Calvinism at all. Right. Um, so when we look at God's sovereignty and we see that all things are working together, you know, for those who are called according to his purpose, you know, there's not a concept of that.

44:36

And it's in part of that is because they have, they have, uh, compartmentalize who the elect of God is.

44:43

So it can't, it can't encompass all of these things that are happening throughout world history only to them. And so, because that's the question that needs to be answered, why are these things happening?

44:52

Why are these people in a certain kind of position? This comes and gives a quick, easy answer for them.

44:57

And it doesn't, they don't have to leave the Bible in order to get clarity on it. Right. A lot of black people in America, they grew up on the

45:03

Bible. Right. Um, and what you have in like the nineties is, or the sixties up until the nineties is black

45:10

Muslims. Right. But it's getting you away from the Bible, right? Hebrew Israelites. Why I think this false gospel was so dangerous is because they're like, no, keep your

45:17

Bible. We're just going to tell you how to understand it. You already got a Bible. Yeah. Right now you are the people of the

45:23

Bible. You are the people of this book. This is what gives you this proud, this gives you this identity. Right. And it, and it, and it turns the scriptures into a means of puffing you up.

45:33

Right. Instead of, instead of uplifting Christ, you know, that the holiness of God, that your, the sinfulness of your sin and the sufficiency of Christ is all about puffing you up now.

45:44

Right. That's what I was just kind of thinking in my head was there's gotta be, the concept of sin must be something that's not really grasped, grasped very well.

45:54

It's more of like, uh, looking through the lens of your DNA, right? Not necessarily equality through sin.

46:03

Like we're all sinners. You know, we've, we fell through Adam and Eve. So therefore we're all related at the core by Adam and Eve.

46:09

And God just chose a group of people, the Israelites to why? Cause he's sovereign.

46:15

And that's where the Messiah was going to come from, who then unites all people through the blood of Jesus Christ, going back to this

46:22

Adam and Eve like state. Right. Right. Like there's none of that. No, no. You have this federalism in Adam and all men fall in Adam.

46:29

Right. And there's a distinction in that they don't understand that all are dead in Adam. Right.

46:35

They, they don't get that. So then when Christ comes and he says, you know, through one man, death came and through another, you know, this, the salvation is coming through Christ.

46:42

There's a total lack of understanding there. Right. And again, it's, it's because they're not pointing back to original sin.

46:48

They're looking at Moses as really the part that that mosaic covenant is where sin really becomes what it is.

46:55

Right. Not Adam. You understand what I'm saying? So, so are they, would they, would they say they're sinners after they, um, you know, after the, the masonic group, they're saved by Christ, let's say, but would they say they're still sinners in need of God and his,

47:12

I wouldn't say necessarily God, but a God in the sacrifice. Right. Well, they would say, this is interesting too, because this differs for some groups.

47:20

Some groups will tell you like when I was out evangelizing and I ran into that group, they would, one guy told me he hadn't sinned in three years.

47:25

Okay. I haven't sinned in three years. And, and this is based off of what they read in the law.

47:31

Right. Now, uh, a greater understanding of what sin is and when Christ is getting into it, the heart of the matter, you know, all of these issues, they flaunted the heart.

47:41

There's no real concept of that. Right. Sin down to the, to the, to the core, down to the heart, the heart is the problem.

47:47

We need a new one. Right. It's more so outward workings of the law that would, that will determine you to be righteous or a sinner.

47:54

Right. So you could have been a sinner in the past, but you could be, you know, free from sin for, for quite a while, you know, until you maybe fall again.

48:01

And then, and then it's really like, it's like, I do it until, until I fall short and then

48:07

Christ does the rest. Right. Christ is plan B. Okay. Right. When I can't be righteous in and of myself,

48:13

Christ, you know, I tag him in at that point. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then it's definitely, I mean, this is also, I think one of the things when you're talking to just about where it is, just even culturally right now,

48:22

I just think the appeal of Hebrew Israelites, especially cause I mean, I mean, especially if you watch the news, even with things that happened in 2020,

48:30

I mean, I can only imagine with how they would perceive and would use something like the murder of George, George Floyd and just seeing how they would use that to give, continue to propagate their idea of the

48:43

Hebrew Israelite gospel. And again, that whole story of George Floyd is very important to have a discussion. Like what is real authentic justice look like for that?

48:50

And I was just thinking, I just, I was reminded of that because I believe the trial for the police officer or police officers.

48:56

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's going on right now. So that, that's just an example too. Like you have historically

49:02

Colts, uh, have gone and taken advantage of times of uncertainty.

49:08

Uh, you know, one of our very first episodes we ever did was on Jim Jones, that he was all about, he was very prominent and it kind of really used a lot of what was going on in the civil rights movement, the civil rights era to really advocate for his idea of social justice, which is just one of those things.

49:25

When you have an idea of justice dealing with Raleigh men's bearers of gods, we look at, we look at all these problems going on, like these are real problems that need, that need the gospel that need to be fixed.

49:34

But then you have something that is just a, you have someone taking advantage of it and slipping in a false gospel that's poisonous and dangerous.

49:44

Um, so yeah, in many ways it's very, it's very important to deal with that for sure. So, uh, what we're going to go ahead and do is, uh, we're going to go to wrap up part one.

49:52

I feel like we did a broad overview, so maybe we're going to go a little more in deep because really that was part of your life for eight and a half years.

50:00

You eventually got out and there was things that, because a lot of people wanting to know how to answer their different claims, but those answers,

50:07

I think were part of the process of you leaving. So we'll talk about that and whatever else comes to our mind.

50:14

So, uh, this is part one of a very, uh, sky overview. This is the drone cam.

50:19

Yeah. There's so much of it. Yeah. I always think like the theology is like a mile long.

50:24

Yes. It's this deep. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's not very deep, but it's, but it's a lot to overlook. Yeah. Yeah.

50:31

All right. Well, uh, if you guys enjoy the first part of this episode, this, uh, really kind of focused on an overview, really a sky overview of the

50:37

Hebrew Israelites, definitely, uh, sharing on social media, uh, leave us a comment, let us know what you liked and definitely appreciate you supporting cultish.

50:45

And as always, this program cannot continue without your support. So if you feel led to donate and allow conversations like this to be a part of your everyday

50:52

Tuesday, go to the cultist show .com. You can go to the donate tab. You can donate one time and or monthly.

50:59

And if you choose to do so, thank you so much for that. And we're very blessed by that. So all that being said, we'll talk to you guys in part two, where we, uh, talked about the