September 1, 2016 Show with Dr. Russell T. Fuller on “The Centrality of Christ Throughout Redemptive History”

The Centrality of Christ in Redemptive History and the Speaker’s Background

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this first day of September 2016.

And obviously, you are not hearing the typical theme music and announcer that we have opening up our program every day because there was a technical difficulty that we are unaware of, why that has occurred today, but we don't need that.

It's not required to conduct a good interview. So I am looking forward today to discussing the centrality of Christ throughout redemptive history again. Last time we discussed this program with my dear friend, Pastor Josh Fryman, who is one of the speakers at the upcoming Christ Our Redeemer conference at the Pittsburgh Baptist Church in Indiana.

But today, we're going to be following up on that same theme with Dr. Russell T. Fuller, who is the plenary speaker at that conference. He is also a professor of Old Testament interpretation at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

He is the co-author of An Invitation to Biblical Hebrew. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Russell T. Fuller. Hey, well, thanks for having me.

It's a real pleasure to be with you today. And this conference is coming up very soon that Dr. Fuller will be speaking at, along with several other speakers. This will be September 9th and the 10th. That's a Friday and Saturday.

And we'll be giving you more details about that during the course of the program. That's going to be held at Pittsburgh Baptist Church in Pittsburgh, Indiana. We've already had at least two of our listeners from Indiana who say that they're going to try to attend.

So we hope that you and many more of you listening can attend this conference. Before I even go into our discussion today, Dr. Fuller, I would like to know something more about you, your upbringing, the religious upbringing that you had, if any, and how you came to Christ, and how you were eventually led to be on the staff at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

When I was real young, my parents took me to church. But then later on, I had a scandal. And I think it affected my parents. And they just didn't go back, really. But when I was 15 years old, I simply said, hey, I'm going to church tonight.

You want to go with me? And I don't know what came over me. And I said, yeah. You know, I'd heard the gospel preached when I was young. But it just bounced off of me. But that night, when I heard the gospel preached, it was completely different.

It was like, wow. I saw myself as a sinner like I have never seen myself as a sinner. And it was just the Spirit of God drawing me to Himself. You know, for the first time, because of Jesus was, He died in my place.

And so I received Him that night. I believed life at that time, even though I was only 15. The Lord got a hold of me. And it just completely changed me. And I became a very different person. I went to a rather large school.

And I just felt like when people asked me questions about my conversion, that I had to give them the answers. And so I started studying scripture, because I knew people had all kinds of questions for me.

And that's what got me started. But I noticed these guys walking around with these Greek New Testaments. And I thought, that's what I want to read. I want to read a Greek New Testament. And so I started taking Greek.

You know, Greek is neat. Let's try that Hebrew stuff. And when I took that, I attended two Jewish schools. And so I went to a Jewish school in Philadelphia, which no longer exists. It's called Dropsy College.

Today, it's part of the University of Pira, many years in Philadelphia, in Cincinnati, called Hebrew Union College. And that was the other Jewish institution. And that's the one I graduated from. And Hebrew and languages, the Hebrew, the Greek, that's the stuff.

But again, language is not an end all, second. I went to what drove me. And so the Lord just put something in me, where you can ask my parents. Before I was saved, they couldn't get me to study anything.

The only thing I would study when I was a kid was the sports pages. And when I got saved, I just felt like I wanted to answer questions. And what got me to Southern Seminary is 43, not just Theological Seminary.

And I'm like, hey, he's got the same theological vision. After two years, Dr. Mohler invited me to come to Louisville and to teach here. And I've been at Southern for the last 18 years.

Now, what happens with all these schools that you're a part of? They all disappear.

That's right. Certain professors that say that to me, they say, where do you go? You destroy everything. And that's right. That one, it was very easy to be doing, money-wise, or maybe 10 years, really.

It was pretty recently when they shut down.

Now, what is a more difficult language to study, Koine Greek or Hebrew?

Probably most people would say Hebrew, but here's what I would tell you. I think if you really get into advanced Greek and do some classical Greek and stuff like that, I believe when you get on that level, Greek becomes more difficult than Hebrew.

But when you just begin, Hebrew is much more intimidating because the letters don't look like English letters. Some of the Greek letters look like our letters. So I think when you first start off, Greek is the easier language.

But if you read Greek, it becomes harder at that point.

And there are people who perhaps have a certain level of anxiety that they really will never know what the scriptures are teaching us because they don't know the original languages of the scriptures and they have to rely on other people like you to teach us what the passages in our English translations really mean.

I mean, because obviously on occasion there are differences of opinion with biblical scholars as to how these English translations have been interpreted. So you have corrections desired to be made in some of the modern translations and even the King James and so on.

How do you respond to people who would have that kind of a mindset?

The Value of Greek, Hebrew, and Reliable English Translations

Yeah, if you look at the old Baptist confession, the old London confession, it talks about the importance of Greek and Hebrew as sort of the ultimate that we need to use to solve, let's say, theological controversies.

But then it goes on to talk about English translations and how it's very important that we translate the Bible into as many languages as we can to get the gospel out. And let me say for our English translations, if you go back to the King James and even to the other ones like the Geneva Bible, all these other translations back in those days, they were very good.

And then when you look at not all of our translations today, when you look at most of our evangelical translations like a New American Standard Bible, the English Standard Version, the ESV, when you look at these, they're very accurate to the Greek and Hebrew.

Well, I'm very glad that you listed the New American Standard first because they happen to sponsor this program, the publisher.

That's the one I go to first. That's the one I read every day is the New American Standard. And now let me say this, and I don't want to get in trouble now. I like the first edition of it better than the second edition.

But anyway, don't let them get me for that. But really, both of them are excellent. And really, for the Bibles that you have out there, like the New American Standard, these are fabulous. Sometimes, the advantage of the Greek and the Hebrew, like a passage like 1 John, it talks about a Christian does not sin.

And what it's saying is, it's kind of like what we would say is, he's not living in sin. The translation's a good translation, but in Greek, the idea is, he's not continuing in sin. He's not constantly in sin.

In other words, sin is not ruling his life like it was before his salvation. So that's an example where understanding Greek can help you a little bit what it means not to sin because even as a Christian, so when you read that, it looks like it's teaching maybe some type of, he's not going to dominate it by sin like he was before salvation.

That's exactly what that is. But again, if you've got a New American Standard Bible, you've got a, maybe I'll say one more thing. If you can read the Greek and Hebrew, it is kind of like watching, but still, I can see, put it this way.

In the Hebrew, I can see emphasis that you just can't see in English Bibles. So, for instance, in Genesis chapter 20, when God comes to Abimelech and says, you're a dead man, okay? When Abimelech starts talking, the Hebrew just goes off the charts.

You can tell he is begging for his life. He uses very emphatic statements, but there's no way you can put that into English. But these are just nuance. The real meaning of what he's saying is exactly what, again, the New American Standard Bible's saying.

But you can just tell by looking at the Hebrew, life. He is, you know, the language, the way he's saying it in the Hebrew, he's just begging God, please don't kill me. So it's just really neat. But again, those are just subtleties.

But other than those little subtleties like that, your English Bibles, they work. Let me tell you. They are, let me put it this way. So virtually you have, it's like ivory soap, 99 .999 pure. And I'll just say that you're really reading the originals, just like it came from Moses, in my opinion.

That's what I'm trying to say.

Well, praise God for that. Now, how much of the original manuscripts of the scriptures were written in Aramaic?

Well, in the Old Testament, there's about ten chapters of Aramaic, starting about chapter, there's some pieces in there that's Hebrew, and then there's a few words in this one little statement here and there that's in Aramaic in the rest of the Bible.

So most of what you have in the Old Testament is in Aramaic. There are Aramaic translations of the Bible that were done by the Jews, and they're fascinating. But again, those are just interpretations.

And do you know Aramaic? And how commonly is Aramaic taught in the seminaries alongside Hebrew and Greek?

Yes, we teach Aramaic here. I teach it. I teach two semesters. One semester we read them all. And if you know Hebrew, you can do Aramaic quite quickly, close languages. Two classes. But we're starting, we're going to start some more.

It's a different language, it's called Syriac, but really that's part of Aramaic. So really we teach, you know, for a seminary, we teach quite a bit of Aramaic for a seminary.

Now you co-authored Invitation to Biblical Hebrew, a beginning grammar. You co-authored that with Kyung Won Choi. I hope I didn't butcher his name. That was perfect. Wow. Absolutely perfect. And is this only for a person involved in seminary studies, or is this something that somebody with the time and the interest?

I hate to use the word layman, but just so people understand where I'm coming from. The average person who's a Christian who has some time and interest, will this book be of value to them?

Yes, because there are three parts to it. There are DVDs where you can actually see me lecturing. I give keys to all the exercise. A person who's a, DVDs. And you don't even need that, really. I mean, you can just do it from the textbook, and you can do it from the word.

People really like to watch me do the lectures as well. And so, no, I wrote, let me say this. They're using my book. Yeah, there's all sorts of people. Oh, yeah. My book. I know of two prisons in America that are using it right now.

Wow, praise God.

Yes. That's something. Well, if anybody listening wants to pick up this book, one of our sponsors is Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Cvbbs .com. That's C-V for Cumberland Valley. B-B-S for BibleBookService .com.

You can contact them. And if they don't already have it in stock, they will order it for you. It's a Kregel academic publication. So just make sure you tell Todd and his wife, Patty Jennings, over there at Cvbbs .com that you heard about them through Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And so if Dr. Fuller believes that the average Christian can pick this up and be blessed by it, I would urge you to do that. And you are going to be speaking at the Christ Our Redeemer conference at Pittsburgh Baptist Church in Indiana.

As I said, one of my dearest friends, Pastor Josh Fryman, is one of the speakers. In fact, he almost became my pastor. But the Lord had mercy on him, and I, unbeknownst to me, was going to be moving to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I now reside.

So God had a different plan in mind. But Josh remains a dear friend, and also Reverend Isaac Evans from Glastonbury Baptist Church in Glastonbury, Connecticut, Reverend John Peoples from Grace Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, and you, Dr. Russell Fuller, will be all speaking on the theme of the centrality of Christ throughout redemptive history.

What are some of the specific themes that you are going to be addressing at this conference?

Christ Throughout the Old Testament and the Messianic Paradigm

There will be, let's say, two things in particular I think I'm going to stress. One is in the New Testament, the New Testament rocking about Messiah, they say things that lead to the idea that Christ is not just in the Old Testament, but actually Christ is throughout the Old Testament.

He, from Genesis, basically chapter 1, all the way through the Old Testament, and then obviously in the New Testament. So that's one thing I'm going to really stress, the fact that Christ is, again, not just in Isaiah 53, Isaiah 9, Isaiah 11.

Clearly he's there, that's true. But I want to get people to see that, look, he is throughout the Old Testament. He's just not just here and there. Then I'm going to talk about how a lot of scholars, some of them, some of them are just basically saying Christ is not in the Old Testament at all.

Are you talking about liberal scholars?

Of course, any scholar who would say that, in my opinion, would be a liberal, that's correct. But there's schools like at Calvin Theological Seminary. There's professors up there. A man wrote a book on the Old, and in there he says there is, he's talking about the Old Testament.

He makes a certain statement, let me see, where he says, and I'm quoting him now, no pre-existing messianic paradigm, written or symbolic, that he healed the sick, raised the dead, forgave sins, was crucified, rose on the third day, and then ascended to heaven.

That's a direct quote from him. Wow, I mean, why on earth believe that he is the Messiah then?

That's right, and here's how he's thinking. He looks at things like the Dead Sea Scrolls, or let's say pre-Christian Jewish literature. He looks at that and he goes, I don't see a lot about Messiah here.

Well, first of all, I think he's wrong there. I think if he looks at pre-Christian Jewish material, you'll see they do talk about it. Now, he says, but wait a minute. He'll say, but they're not talking about some type of pre-existing messianic paradigm, healed the sick, raised the dead, and so forth.

Here's how I would respond to that. Like I told you, I attended Jewish schools. If you look at what the rabbis say, as a matter of fact, maybe I'll quote some rabbis. Yeah, definitely.

Is this Talmudic sources or modern-day rabbis?

The rabbis clearly believe. Now, again, the reason I want to bring the rabbis up is not because what they say is, that's not what I'm saying. I want your listeners to understand that. The reason I bring them up is because so-called Christian scholars, like Mr. Crump at Calvin, he's saying, hey, listen, it's Christians basically made up all this, okay?

They made it up. That's his claim. Wow. Yes. And so what I want to do, I'll tell you what I'm going to read to you. I'm reading from a book here called Every Man's Talmud. And it's written by Abraham Cohen, okay?

And he has a chapter on Messiah. Let me read it to you. First of all, he talks about how Messiah is going to suffer when he comes. They call him the son of Joseph. And now when I say son of Joseph, I'm not talking about New Testament, that his father was Joseph.

They mean they call him son of Joseph. They're talking about Joseph in the Old Testament. The way they're reading the Old Testament is they look at Joseph's sufferings and they go, Do you see how Joseph's suffering?

The Messiah is going to suffer. Like, not in the exact way that Joseph did. But they look at what Joseph did and they go, uh-huh, Messiah's going to suffer the same way. They even call him, listen to this title they give Messiah, and they call him, he's got leprosy.

And they say this, and this is by Rabbi Judah, the reason we call him the leprous one is, quote, Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. We did esteem him stricken and spitten of God.

He quotes Isaiah 53, saying Messiah's going to suffer. Now again, this is not a modern rabbi. This is a rabbi back, you know, close to the time of Christ. Now this rabbi, Judah the prince, is after Christ, but not too far, and not too many years after Christ he wrote that.

They believed he would die. And when they talk about the death of Messiah, they say he's going to die because in Zechariah it talks about the wounds in his hands. It's talking about Messiah's wounds, they say, you see.

So the rabbis, I hate to say this, many times the rabbis are more messianic in their interpretation of the Old Testament than Christian scholars are. Wow. Let that sink in for a minute. I mean, um...

Now are you using that term Christian scholars loosely there? Very much so. Very much so. A part of Christendom is what you really mean. Yes, that's correct.

Correct. I appreciate your correcting me on that. Again, see, the Jews had this problem in their thinking. They said Messiah's going to die, but yet they also taught Messiah's going to live forever. Together, but we know today the solution to that.

That's the resurrection. He was raised from the dead. That's what happened. They don't describe Messiah as being raised from the dead, but they have what looks like a contradiction for them. Namely, yes, he dies directly.

That's the, again, the resurrection. Something else they say, they say when Messiah comes, and again I don't agree with totally what I'm about to tell you, they say there's going to be sacrifices, but not sacrifices for sin offerings anymore.

Well, that tells you they believe that when he comes, he was going to deal with sin. So, clearly the rabbis had what this guy is denying. They had a pre-existing messianic paradigm, and basically I can show you from the rabbis that everything that they're saying here, forgive sins, raise the dead, and so forth, that's exactly what they say Messiah's going to do.

If you'd like to share some more of that, in fact, let me just give our email address again for anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question of your own. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA. I'm sorry, so you could continue there.

Okay, let me give you two quotes of the rabbis. It's very important. There's two quotes I think that are just so essential to understanding how the rabbis see Messiah. Now, again, they have no problem with Messiah.

The Jewish problem is they don't see Jesus as Messiah. I want to make sure, again, you're... They have two quotes that I think are fabulous for Christians, and that's this. The first one is, the prophets only prophesy of Messiah.

Now, when they say that, you've got to understand when they say prophets, they're not just talking about Isaiah through Malachi. The way that the Jews... You can see this in the New Testament. The way the Jews describe the Old Testament is, when they say the prophets only prophesy of Messiah, what they're saying is the Old Testament only talks of Messiah.

That's what they're saying. Okay? Their other statement is this. The world was only created for Messiah. So, again, what they're saying is, all of human history is to Messiah. He is the gold. He is the ultimate fulfillment of all Old Testament.

Therefore, the whole world, the whole history of the world, is really aiming toward Him. Now, I think this is very important, and this is why sometimes when the rabbis... There's certain verses. Let me read you...

There's a verse in Leviticus 26 that I think is very interesting. The rabbis say it's messianic, but I think if you and I were to think about this, we would say, wait a minute. Where is this messianic?

It's in Leviticus 26. Let me see if I can find it very quickly here for you. It's not describing the future. It's describing the past.

I'm just going to repeat our email address while you're looking. Go ahead. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. I also want to give a plug to one of our sponsors. Since the computer aspect of our program that airs commercials isn't working right now, let me plug Solid Ground Christian Books, one of our loyal sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron.

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I highly recommend it. And thank you, Mike Gaydosh and everyone at Solid Ground Christian Books for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. But I'm sorry, I would now like to return to our discussion.

Dr. Fuller? Okay, I was going to talk about Leviticus 26. The Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt so that you should not be their slaves. And I broke the bars of your yoke. And you go, wait a minute, the Messiah is in the future, not the past.

Again, they'll say, no, no, only prophesies of Messiah. And so, what they see is that even Israelite history is a window into the Messianic age. So what they're saying is, you think there was a great redemption at the time of Moses, and he caused you to walk upright.

You just wait until Messiah comes. You've seen nothing yet. Wait until he comes in his redemption. And so they would look at the Passover, a window into the Messianic age, you see. And that's why, again, with Joseph, you see how he's suffering?

That's a window into the Messianic age. Messiah's going to suffer. This is why Jesus, again, when he looks at the Old Testament, he'll say, do you see how they lifted up that serpent in the wilderness?

So they're going to lift me up. Do you see that manna in the Old Testament? I'm the true manna. And so you can see how the New Testament authors, and the one that everyone gets stuck on sometimes is, out of Egypt have I called my son.

And you read that and you go, wait a minute, that's talking about Israel in the past. Yes, but you've got to understand, all of Israelite history is a window into the Messianic age. It's as if when Messiah comes, he's going to repeat Israelite history.

So just like they're going to go to the wilderness for 40 years, he's going to be tempted for 40 days. He's going to be baptized. They went through the sea, you see. Messiah is going to repeat the history of the Old Testament, but on a much greater scale, you see.

This is the way the rabbis understood it. I think they're absolutely right. And by the way, those two quotes, you can basically find them in the New Testament. For instance, in Matthew chapter 11, prophets in the law put very much the same thing that the rabbis were saying.

In Moses, everything they said was up until John. Everything they were talking about ends with John the Baptist. And then what does it say in Colossians chapter 1? It talks about Jesus and it says, all things were made by him, all things were made for him.

So again, all human history, biblical or even outside the Bible. And that's why I would say, no, we need to see Jesus from the Old Testament and then of course in the New Testament.

We do have a listener from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, CJ, who wants to know, are there any theologically sound faculty members left at Calvin Seminary? And if so, are they protesting such heresy that is being taught there?

Better than, let's say, Mr. Crump does. Again, I think he teaches Old Testament. Are there any people who would really strict orthodoxy about the person of Christ, the Trinity, and so forth? I doubt it, to be honest with you.

Wow.

And that was not always the case, right? No, no, no. There used to be... Yeah. Oh yeah, no. Now, this was affiliated with the Christian Reformed Church? That's correct. And I guess it's gone downhill with the denomination, then.

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a shame.

And there's a lot of post-mortem. Really, Crump, whose quote I gave you, he's... And by the way, Crump goes on basically to say even passages like Isaiah 53 have nothing to do with Jesus. But, yeah, those...

Well, that's a shame.

Regeneration, the Messiah, and the Rejection of Christ

Now, I am... I don't know if you are, because I haven't asked you this, but I happen to be a theologically Reformed, a Calvinist, a believer in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace. I don't know if you share those convictions.

But one of the reasons I'm adding that to my question is that, obviously, according to my way of viewing the Scripture, and of the Gospel, there needs to be a supernatural miracle that actually occurs in the heart of a dead sinner before they can embrace the truth.

So I understand anyone, whether they are Jewish or Gentile, rejecting the truths of the Messiah, the prophecies of the Messiah, and so on, until they have been born from above. But excluding that supernatural issue, what are the arguments that the rabbis have that would lead them to reject Christ as fulfilling their Messianic prophecies?

Yes, I totally agree with you in my thinking. Again, a big fan of the London Confession that I just gave you. I really like the Western Course. I'm Baptist, so I would make a couple of adjustments here and there.

But to me, probably the best expression of theology that's out there. But now with that said, the way the Bible describes it is, it's a blindness of mind and situation. Country to get fixed. But if you say, well, to do that we need to get sin fixed.

Oh no, no, no, don't forget that. We're not going to get sin fixed. But look what Paul says, like in 1 Corinthians chapter 1. There's really two ways of thinking. To the Gentile mind, Messiah dying on the cross.

Because again, they were looking... And one of the rabbis says that the days of Messiah will be just like our days today, except just for Messiah to come and die for sins and not destroy the society. If you look at the very end, it talks about the Gentile nations.

It's sprinkling them, and it says that they who had not heard, they will believe. And they who did not see, they will see. And what that means is, the Gentiles, when Messiah comes, the Gentiles will receive him.

But then Isaiah 53, the very next verse, 53 .1 says, but who has believed our report? And so what's being prophesied at the very end of Isaiah 52 and the beginning of 53, is that when Messiah comes, the Gentiles will receive him, but the Jewish people, not 100%.

There's always a remnant according to God's election. But as a whole, are going to reject him. That's what's told the Jews, you will not basically receive me until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

And that's going to be toward the second coming, I believe. So I do believe that at the end of time, when the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled,.

We'll be saved, is what I think. You mean all of those who are ethnically Jewish?

I don't think it will be 100 necessarily, but I think it will be predominantly. So I think when the times of the Gentiles are in by the Lord, then I think at the end of time, I think you'll see the conversion of the Jews again.

Now I'm not a dispensationalist. The Jews will become...

The dispensationalists believe that two-thirds of them will be murdered in the Great Tribulation, do they not?

Some of them do, yes. Some forms of dispensationalism would see something like that. Again, I believe we're in the Tribulation now. You know, this is the last hour and things like this. Yes, because we live in a messianic age.

And we actually have a related question here. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, Is your guest amillennial, premillennial, or postmillennial? Yes. Yes is a good answer.

And let me say, sometimes when I read the Bible, I say, you know, I could see that view on that verse. But overall, I'm an amillennialist.

Yes, right now that would be where I see myself, an optimistic amillennial. Yes, now let me say this.

I would see... I would see... When you say amillennial, it sounds like I don't believe in a millennium. I really do believe in a millennium. But I don't take it as a literal... is that Satan, during this time, is no longer deceiving the nations.

If God were just to... Satan was deceiving the nations. But I think today, he's been not completely bound, but only bound in the sense that he's not able to deceive the nations like he was in the Old Testament.

So I believe we're in the millennium right now. And at the end of the millennium, then you'll have, you know, the Gog and Magog, you know, the last battle, as it were. You'll see the resurrection, the final judgment.

So I'd see a June of things like that. And then the hereafter. New heavens and new earth.

And we have John in Augusta, Maine, who asks, one of your former guests had presented the idea that there were many Jews who, at one time, in the days of Christ, were accepting an understanding of Yahweh in a Benetarian concept.

They were not completely refuting or rejecting the notion of different persons of God. Although, obviously, not having reached the point of being Trinitarian. Does your guest agree with this, that there were many Jews who had a Benetarian understanding of Yahweh?

That's a very good question. You can tell by the New Testament that it's not like at the beginning of the New Testament they have to explain the Trinity. They just describe the Holy Spirit and Jesus, almost already from, let's say, a Trinitarian framework.

If you read some Jewish books, like in the old days, I'm not talking about a theology book like we think of a theology book. Like, for instance, I'm thinking of a work that's called the Song of Solomon, but it's the Aramaic edition of it.

If you read in there, you can see how they personify the Holy Spirit. And they, of course, and they look at Messiah, and again, they almost see Him as divine. And so, when you look at some of the Jewish writings, they are very, I mean, they're Unitarian.

Listen, they're Unitarian. I don't want to give the idea that Jews are not strict, but yet when you read their literature, the way they personify the Holy Spirit and even use the term Holy Spirit, when you see how they view Messiah, you can see how when a Jew comes to Christ, Trinitarianism is not a problem.

To answer the guy's question, our listener's question, the answer is, he's on to something here. That's right. It's not that they were, I mean, they were still Unitarian, but they were really close. And once Jesus comes, by the way, I mean, the question is, who is this man?

And once you say He's God, then Trinitarianism becomes inevitable. I mean, and that's where, there's not some theologians in a back room somewhere making up this doctrine. I don't know. Once Jesus came, it's like, wait a minute.

This man is God, and now when we look back in the Old Testament, and I love what, he talks about the Old Testament. He compares it to a dimly lit room, that when the light of the New Testament is shined back on it, we're not reading the New Testament into the Old Testament, but when you shine that light back in there, you say, hey, wait a minute.