Exposing the Heresy of the ERLC at the SBC Annual Meeting

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Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. You can get more at ApologiaStudios .com.

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So much content over the last month has gone up, so many on -the -street engagements and conflicts. One of the great encouragements that I got last week in Anaheim at the

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What? Yeah, they already had their first, and now they have groups of members of their church that are actually now doing the snowflake baby thing where they're adopting these frozen children, implanting them, and giving them a family.

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That's right. It's not being held. And this all in fun. It's all in fun. It's not being held in a cattle arena.

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So that's all there is to it. So reformcon .org. And so much has happened.

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Okay, so here's what you're going to get on the show today. So everyone, thank you guys for watching live right now, but we have some important stuff to talk about, some very important stuff to talk about.

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We're going to talk about, and you see I titled this, not to be controversial.

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I'm not just trying to get a rise out of people, and this is not clickbait. I titled the show today

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Exposing the Heresy of the ERLC at the SBC Annual Meeting. We're going to discuss that, the heresy of the

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ERLC. It's not just the heresy of the ERLC. It's the heresy of the pro -life establishment, the pro -life industry.

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It is heresy. What they teach is undeniably and controversially heretical.

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It is against historic orthodoxy, historic Christian teaching in the area of abortion.

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And I'm going to read a bunch of quotes to you today from the church in history, but also, of course, our grounding and our final authority is the

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Word of God. So it is biblically against biblical orthodoxy, and it is against Christian history in orthodoxy,

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Christian orthodoxy in history. And so we're going to talk about that, and we're also going to hopefully be able to engage a bit with Brother Emilio Ramos, Pastor Emilio Ramos.

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Somebody sent us a clip from one of his messages. We love him, and we appreciate the man who stands for truth the way he does and loves the

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Lord and loves the Word of God. Good pastor. But he made some comments in one of his messages about post -millennialism and theonomy.

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We're just going to engage a bit with that and sort of go to the text on some of the points that he raises.

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And so hopefully we do that. We're also going to play for you guys, if you haven't seen it yet, a clip from Al Mohler when he was at the

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SBC. And I'll sort of lead into it now. So whet your appetite. I don't even know if I told you this,

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Luke. You know, you kind of went in and out from like sessions. It just kind of went, it felt like it went forever.

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They had session, session, then they'd break, and then session. But we also had the area with all the vendors and everything.

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That's mostly where people would hang out afterwards. I love Nashville's situation better than Anaheim's.

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I feel like Anaheim's Convention Center is not great. It's kind of rundown. Rundown and ugh.

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And woke. Yeah. Well, the convention was definitely woke. I'm saying the facilities. Broke.

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It was broke. The Nashville facilities last year were so much nicer. I really appreciated that more.

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But so I come in because I know they're about to do a session, and I went to go give some encouragement to Dusty Devers and Bill Askell.

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They were up at microphone 8, and they were about to get a chance to speak. And so Bill's there standing at the microphone, and Dusty's standing next to him.

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And so I go up, and I talk to Bill, and I pray for him. And then Dusty's there.

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I think I prayed for Dusty. But I'm standing there with the guys, and they're about to go up. And so I spent some time with them.

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I was there with them. I was looking around. And then I go and sit down sort of right in front of Bill. And next thing you know, as they call his microphone,

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Bill introduces and says, I'm going to turn the microphone over to someone else. And I'm like, that's weird.

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He was really intent on saying something to help with the abolition stuff. He's like, hey, I prayed for you. He's like, hey, dude, you're supposed to be talking about abolition right now.

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But he says, I'm going to turn the microphone over to someone else. I'm like, well, who could he be turning it over to? Because I'm thinking it's about the abolition thing.

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And next thing you know, Al Mohler walks up, and he's like 10 feet away from me. That's awesome. And it was like Gandalf walking up to the microphone.

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It was like the whole place was like, what just happened? Did he have a staff? I mean, he should have.

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Yeah. He should have. Al Mohler walks up to the microphone. Totally took me by surprise, everybody by surprise. I don't think anybody anticipated that.

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And it was like the whole place, you just felt everything shift. Like everyone's like, what's happening right now?

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Al Mohler's walking up, just regular old microphone number eight to talk. He used to be on that stage as the president.

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And so we'll talk about that. So that's what's happening in the show today. Before I start, did you want to say anything,

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Pastor Luke? Well, yeah. I can't not mention, which I actually forgot last week. I failed miserably last week, to mention our sponsors who we're partnering with,

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Zero Dark Ninja color for all of his gear. I like the multicam, but just wanted to show this.

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They have awesome tools of liberty. We're going to be talking a lot more about them. We've actually been having some really good meetings with them, and hopefully possibly at ReformCon.

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And anyways, please go to visitsarmoredrepublic .com and get yourself some tools of liberty.

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Tools of liberty, y 'all. So here we go. Southern Baptist Convention, it's their annual meeting.

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It was in Anaheim. A lot of pastors that I spoke with were very concerned about the fact that they held the annual meeting in Anaheim, California.

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That was a lot of the conversation that I heard from a lot of the elders and pastors who were in attendance there. I guess there's somewhere around 46 ,000, 47 ,000

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Southern Baptist churches as a part of their denomination, their network. It's the largest denomination in the nation.

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Maybe even in the world. I don't know. Those numbers, you might be right about that. So that's quite a few churches.

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So if you think about the numbers, we're looking at close to 50 ,000 local churches that are partnered with the

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Southern Baptist Convention. This year's annual meeting was in Anaheim, California. It was in the

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West Coast. And there were, I think, about somewhere around 9 ,000, if I'm correct, somewhere around 9 ,000 messengers sent from these local churches to the

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SBC. So there were quite a few local churches with no representation at the annual meeting.

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Quite a few. That's like a fifth. Yeah, it was missing a lot of people. A lot of pastors were concerned that it was held in Anaheim, and for a number of reasons they said, look, you're asking churches that are part of the

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Southern Baptist Convention to travel all the way across the country to the West Coast, and right now the prices are just so high.

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That's the thing they were saying. The prices are so high for airfare, for gas, for food. Everything is so expensive.

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So asking messengers to come across the country for the annual meeting in Anaheim is a difficult thing.

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So they were concerned that not a lot of representation was present, and they were holding their meeting to literally vote as messengers from the churches.

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So there was a lot of stuff on the docket this year for the Southern Baptist Convention. Just so everyone knows, we are not

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Southern Baptists. We love the Southern Baptist Convention. Our brothers and sisters who are part of that convention that are so faithful to the

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Lord, love the Lord, love the gospel, love the word of God. And that's a question I got a lot, Luke, too, is people would say,

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Jeff, what are you doing here? You're not a Southern Baptist. I was like, no, I was a guest of Bill Askle, and I'm here just to encourage you guys and also to try to figure out how we can work together to provide equal protection and put an end to abortion.

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And so they're like, oh, we appreciate your support. But we love our

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Southern Baptist brothers and sisters, and of course, it's grieving us to see where the convention is going, taking this wild, fast turn to the left and abandoning so much in terms of the

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Baptist faith and message. And beyond that, of course, the most important thing is Scripture in so many areas.

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But there was a lot on the docket. Number one, I'll just throw a couple things out. There was plenty of them. One is

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Rick Warren and his church had installed female pastors.

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And that was a big deal because it goes against their stated, stipulated doctrine, their doctrinal position.

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They already saw this coming, and they have a Baptist faith and message where they define the role of pastor as male, kind of like Paul did, like the

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Scriptures do. Don't permit a woman to exercise authority over a man. That sort of a thing. All of the qualifications for a pastor, an elder, are to a man.

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The wife of one husband. Yeah, the husband of one wife, and all that. It's him, him, him. It's nothing derogatory towards women whatsoever.

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It's just this is how God designed the world. He creates specific ways for the machine to function, and he gives men certain gifts and abilities and roles and responsibilities, and he also gives women certain gifts, responsibilities, roles, and that's how the world works.

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And so it's nothing in terms of putting someone on a lower pedestal. It's just that he's designated that.

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That's men, you do this. Women, you do this. Like, for example, one thing I think is wonderful that God does in his

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Word is he considers it a great evil to send women into combat.

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Men are supposed to fight those battles. Men do that, not women. And, you know, I think women should really appreciate that, and I think men should glory in that.

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Like, we'll fight for our women and our children. We'll do the fighting, not our women. And that's just the way the world works, and God defines that in his

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Word. Anyways, the Baptist faith and message defined it clearly. Rick Warren's part of the SBC, Rick Warren violated that.

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And so, of course, the conversation was, well, he has to be disfellowshipped. Yeah. What's controversial about that?

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It doesn't just go against biblical doctrine, but it goes against their Baptist faith and message. They've already decided this.

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The SBC has already said, collectively, this is what we believe. And when was that, 2003, did

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I hear? Somewhere around 2000. Yeah, so 20 years, anyway. Yeah, you might be right, it's in 2003. So Rick Warren violates the

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Baptist faith and message. There are faithful men there, like, hey, what are we going to do about this? Like, you know, you've got to disfellowship them.

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Like, why do you want to be part of the SBC and go against what our stipulated position is? So that was what provoked this.

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So what they decided to do was to call a committee to study the word pastor.

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That was their response. Like, instead of disfellowshipping— I wondered what that was about. I saw some of that, and I was like— Yeah, so instead of disfellowshipping, rightly, let's form a committee to study the word pastor.

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And it's like, guys, it's not that difficult. Do you need a committee for that? You don't need a committee to study the word pastor.

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The word is clear, but not just that. You already have a Baptist faith and message. You've already defined it.

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You don't need a committee to study the word pastor. You know what you mean. So this is what's going on in the background when

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Al Mohler walks up to the microphone. So this is the moment that Dr. Mohler walked up to the microphone on this question.

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Mr. Chairman, I just come to this microphone in the event that it is in order for me to speak.

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I'm speaking as a messenger of the Third Avenue Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.

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I served on the committee that brought the Baptist faith and message in 2000 that was overwhelmingly adopted by this convention.

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My concern is as a churchman, a theologian, and someone who loves this convention, as I know everyone in this room does, if we eventually have to form a study committee over every word in our confession of faith, then we're doomed and we're no longer a confessional people.

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Dr. Mohler, would you... Your microphone number five. I recognize you again to continue speaking to this.

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Thank you, sir. I certainly want to be in order with the rest of this convention. I appreciate the opportunity.

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I'll make this brief. I also appreciate the good work of the credentials committee and the spirit in which they bring this.

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But I am a confessionalist. This is a confessional denomination. We say what we believe in specific words that are the

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Baptist faith and message. The moment we start to, of necessity, have study committees to decide what the words mean, the words mean what

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Southern Baptists said in the year 2000. At that time, the word pastor was used by the committee and adopted by the convention because we were told that is the most easily understood word among Southern Baptists for pastoral teaching leadership.

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I have to hope we still have that much clarity and that churches that use the word pastor mean it.

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Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity. I'm going to play some more for you.

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Just a moment. Clear enough. That's clear enough.

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It should be understandable. Now, what was disheartening, and I know that it's disheartening for so many brothers and sisters who are part of the

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SBC, is that I believe it was the next day. You have to forgive me.

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Last week was sort of a whirlwind. I think it was the next day. Rick Warren appears.

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I was in the room when it happened. I was on sort of the right side. I didn't know it was going to happen.

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Rick Warren comes up to one of the microphones and they allow him to speak. I'm just picturing him appearing in a cloud of smoke.

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Yeah, seriously. It felt like that, honestly. Even being there, it really felt like that. Big surprises. Rick Warren appears.

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He says something like it's customary before a person is hung that they get a chance to give some last words.

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But he proceeds to say, I'm not here to defend myself. Then he goes on to basically brag about himself and defend his ministry and his position.

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I got to say, when I first saw the memes, I thought it was a joke. It wasn't a joke.

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Then I was like, wait, does it really happen? No, no, it really happened. He just said,

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I'm not going to defend myself. Then he proceeds to basically defend himself and argue for his position.

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He calls the issue of gender roles with pastor, just we're going to be bickering or fighting over these secondary issues.

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I understand when we talk about secondary issues, generally we're talking about things that do not relate to the core of the gospel, the nature of God, how a person is justified before God.

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I understand that we'll call things, well, that's a secondary issue. However, when you're dismissive and you call gender roles for roles in the church, you call that just, that's just a secondary issue.

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I think you're waving your hand a little too rapidly because it's not merely a secondary issue, just like whatevs, whatever.

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You can't treat that that way because scripture is really clear that God has created an order in the church.

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Now there's disagreements, I understand. Okay, I understand there's disagreements between Presbyterians and Baptists, like in terms of like you'll have elder, pastor, same position, according to scripture, all define the same, and qualifications the same, and used interchangeably throughout the

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New Testament in terms of pastor, elder role. Presbyterians disagree. There's different ways they order things in terms of like elder role, pastor role, where they'll work together as churches and where they try to keep accountability and discipline, those sorts of things.

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Look, that's one thing in terms of, well, okay, it's secondary in terms of how you're going to work this out.

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But you know where Presbyterians and Baptists don't disagree in terms of historical, you know,

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Orthodox, real Presbyterians and Baptists is whether or not a woman can have authority over a man and take the role of pastor within the church.

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That's where you don't disagree. Why? Because scripture is so abundantly clear on that, you can't just wave the hand and say, it's just secondary.

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It's just secondary gender roles. Well, do you feel the way about the family? Like God defines like what the role is for a husband and role is for the man and the woman in the family.

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Do you think that's just quote unquote secondary, just wave the hand at it? Like, well, it says the man's supposed to be doing this in the family, but why don't we just switch it?

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Just switch it. Why not? It's just a secondary issue, right? It's no big deal. Like when you wave the hand at an issue like that, like Rick Warren attempted to do,

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I think you're doing a disservice to the authority of the word of God and to the good of the church.

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And so Rick Warren and his church should have been disfellowshipped because they not only violated scriptural standards and norms, but they also violated the

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Baptist faith and message. That's essentially what Albert Muller is going up and talking about. Like we've been very clear on this.

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Now, I want you to get a chance to see the response. Like Al Muller goes up, he gives an irrefutable point and this is the response.

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All right, is there anyone who would speak for this recommendation? I love this part.

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Like everyone's like, who's going to go up against Muller? You should see their faces. Like does anybody want to speak for?

26:32

Anyone want to go toe -to -toe with what Albert Muller just said and everyone's just sort of like this? And you can see like the woman, I don't know how this all worked out, but she finally has to go up herself.

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I think they all pushed her up there. I know, seriously, just get up there. Like, you know, come on now, exercise some authority over a man. Come on, try to handle this.

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Looking, looking, look, anyone? Anyone? Mueller? Dr. Muller, I understand totally.

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To me, I know what pastor means, but in some of our Southern Baptist churches, pastor is a spiritual gift that is given to many people.

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So we wanted clarity in what that pastor means.

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So the result was they just are going to do a committee? Is that what the end result was?

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I'm trying to think back to how they handled that. He's not disfellowshipped. Let's just put it that way.

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He wasn't disfellowshipped. I would just say it's crazy because if you've seen the memes,

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I don't remember what all the stats were, but like his justification, Rick Warren's justification for having female pastors was to say, we've baptized 16 million people and led 17 million people to, you know, it was like all these numbers and it was like he went like full

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Nebuchadnezzar on that. Like, look what I've done. Therefore, we can have women pastors. Look at all that I have accomplished.

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I'm surprised God didn't make him start eating grass. Eating grass. Like an ox.

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Yeah, good point. So that was sad. I mean, it's undeniably sad.

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Now, I want to get you into the more important part of the story from our perspective in terms of we've been trying to save children at the abortion mills.

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We've been trying to point people to Christ and to the gospel itself and our fight against the issue of abortion.

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That's what we've been up to. And we've raised up about 900 local churches to go out that are saving lives every single day in this country and around the world.

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We even have churches right now that are possibly raising up in Germany. We have Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Scotland, Australia.

28:52

We have New Zealand, Canada. We have all over the U .S. We've been very concerned to say, let's as the church approach the issue of abortion with consistency with the biblical message of the gospel itself under the authority of Christ.

29:05

And so we went to Anaheim to connect with solid churches, because the

29:11

SBC has so many solid churches, to connect with the SBC and pastors for the states that we're working in next to get bills of equal protection in.

29:19

And this is important. It's very important. Because I want you all to know that the pro -life establishment, the pro -life industry, groups like the

29:31

ERLC, killed our bill of equal protection that would have established justice for the pre -born in Louisiana.

29:40

It wasn't the pro -choice movement. It wasn't the pro -choice industry. They have not had to really lift a finger at all in any of the states that we got a bill of equal protection and abolition and criminalization into.

29:56

So what are our states, Luke? We've done Arizona, Texas, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Louisiana.

30:06

Is that right? Am I missing any? Indiana. Did you say Indiana? Yeah. No, I didn't say

30:11

Indiana. So that was one as well. We helped with our friends in Oklahoma twice with Senator Joseph Silk's bill.

30:19

And I want you to know, this is not a conspiracy theory. We're not just blowing smoke here.

30:26

This is the truth. In every single state that we got those bills in equal protection, it was the pro -life establishment that killed every single bill.

30:33

They fought against it so hard that in all of them, they will work to where it doesn't even get a hearing.

30:43

Or if it gets a hearing, they don't let it get it out of hearing. And it is specifically the pro -life establishment that tells them not to vote on bills of equal protection because they do not ever, ever, ever want to see the woman as culpable or guilty in any way for the issue of abortion.

31:02

That is the heresy of the pro -life establishment. It is heresy. I'm going to demonstrate it to you, but it is heresy.

31:10

It is doctrine that the pro -life industry has taught to the nation and specifically to Christian organizations and to Christian local churches.

31:19

They have taught the heresy that the woman is herself a victim and she bears no guilt, no responsibility for the issue of abortion.

31:28

And they've killed every single bill. So what was historic in Louisiana was that we were able to get a bill along with Pastor Brian Gunter, solid man of God, and others who are working together, all of us trying to get the word out about this.

31:44

We were able to get a bill of equal protection with Danny McCormick in Louisiana.

31:49

It was a bill that called what's in the womb image of God, and it simply said it's human from conception and every human in the state of Louisiana deserves the same equal protection.

31:58

That's what the bill said. So what's that mean? The bill taught what the pro -life establishment raises money for.

32:06

They say what's in the womb is human from conception. All human life is sacred. All human life deserves to be protected equally.

32:13

The bill said that. So the bill goes to the hearing in Louisiana.

32:19

And the bill passed hearing overwhelmingly. It was seven to two.

32:26

And it wasn't just, eh, sure. Some of them were, yes.

32:31

One of them said, absolutely. Bill gets to the floor for a vote because in the case of Louisiana, those legislators had not yet been worked on by the pro -life establishment.

32:46

All they saw was a bill that was, hey, that's what we got voted in for, right? Equal protection, human life from conception.

32:52

This is our bill. Absolutely, that's our bill. That's what we got votes for. Hey, that's what we've been told the pro -life establishment wants us to uphold.

33:01

Human life from conception, equal protection. All human life is sacred. So they said, yes, pass the hearing.

33:06

So what was historic was that through the work of all of our partners within Abortion Now, Apologia Church, Brian Gunter and others, we were able to get a bill of equal protection into Louisiana and pass the hearing to a vote.

33:19

Hasn't happened in all the time since Roe v. Wade. It was historic. It was the first time it's ever happened.

33:26

And what took place between the hearing and the day of the vote was a week of frenzy.

33:34

The pro -life leaders, pro -life establishment, national right to life, Louisiana right to life, and you guessed it, the

33:42

E -R -L -C, worked against our bill to establish justice for the pre -born in the state of Louisiana.

33:50

Everything that I'm saying to you right now, though it sounds crazy, I can prove every inch of this.

33:56

I can prove every inch of this with witnesses and irrefutable evidence. The pro -life establishment spent the week after the hearing trying to make sure that the legislators understood that they did not want ever for the woman to be seen as guilty for murdering her child in the womb.

34:15

That is a fact. The pro -life establishment, with their heresy, their doctrine, worked in Louisiana to kill the bill of justice and equal protection.

34:29

And what took place was, is the day of the vote itself, predominantly pro -life legislature, with a bill that says it's human from conception, all humans deserve equal protection, they went to vote on the floor that day with a letter in hand.

34:45

I saw it floating around. I saw the letter floating around that Capitol that day.

34:53

The legislators were encouraged by a letter from over 70 pro -life organizations, national and at state level, including

35:02

National Right to Life, Louisiana Right to Life, and the ERLC.

35:08

And what the letter said to our legislators and to legislators across the country was that they did not ever want legislators to support bills that would ever see the woman as guilty or having to incur any criminal penalties for murdering her child in the womb.

35:27

And so our bill, that day, they attempted to gut it, and they did it with confidence.

35:34

Pro -life legislators who had just the week before voted yes on our bill, flipped in a week, because the pro -life establishment said, don't you dare, don't you dare pass that bill.

35:48

And then they started working against Danny McCormick and the bill itself to try to gut it and kill it.

35:54

Praise God for Danny McCormick, is that he didn't let them do it. He's a hero. All he did is he said, nope,

36:00

I'm going to shelve it, put it back on the calendar. He didn't let them gut it. He didn't let them turn it into Frankenstein.

36:05

He took it and put it back on the calendar so they couldn't do what they were trying to do to it. But what you need to understand is that the thing that was shocking to many

36:13

Southern Baptists who want to see the pre -born protected, they want to see the gospel at the front of this, what they were shocked about was that the

36:20

ERLC, the ethics section of the Southern Baptist Convention was on the letter that was sent to our legislators, supporting the idea that a woman is not guilty for murdering her child in the womb and she should not have any penalties for murdering her children in the womb.

36:45

That was shocking. It was shocking to a lot of pastors, a lot of pastors like, wait a minute, this seems to go against the biblical worldview.

36:54

This seems to go against the gospel itself. What's going on? And so thank

37:01

God. So Pastor Brian Gunter asked me to come to Anaheim to help to connect to other pastors so we can continue to work in other states, including

37:10

Louisiana. Again, guess what? It's coming back. That's the plan. But he wanted me to come because he wanted to be able to put together content to show you that content is being built right now.

37:21

We want to show you what happened in Louisiana. We want to expose all of this, the heresy of the pro -life establishment and the

37:28

ERLC. And so Brian and I were praying that the Lord would grant him the opportunity to be able to go up to a microphone and ask a question of Brent Leatherwood and the

37:37

ERLC as to why they worked against his bill. And I'm going to show it to you right now.

37:43

This is that moment from the ERLC's section or session at the

37:49

Southern Baptist annual meeting. Here's where Pastor Brian Gunter goes up to the microphone to ask his question. My name is

37:55

Brian Gunter. I am a messenger and a senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Livingston, Louisiana.

38:04

Earlier this year, I worked with my state legislators to introduce House Bill 813 in the

38:11

Louisiana legislature. HB 813 was a bill that sought to immediately end all abortion in my state by providing equal protection to the child in the womb.

38:23

Simply stated, if life begins at conception, then our laws should protect life from the moment of conception.

38:33

So you can imagine my surprise when you signed a letter dated

38:39

May 12th urging all state lawmakers across America to oppose this bill and others like it because it would make it a crime for a woman to kill her own child by abortion.

38:53

I thought that Southern Baptist, when we say we're pro -life, we mean that no person should be able to murder an innocent child in the womb.

39:05

So this is my question. Is it really your position that the mother who willfully kills her own child by abortion is never guilty before God and she should never face any consequences under the law?

39:27

So let me explain that. It's important, and this goes to the heresy of the pro -life industry, the heresy of the pro -life establishment, the heresy of the

39:37

ERLC. They believe, and we can show you statements, videos from their own mouths over and over and over again from our own platform with Tobias and Tony Lowinger.

39:50

They believe that a woman who kills her child in her womb via abortion is herself a victim like her child.

39:58

That is what they believe. They said it in Louisiana because they had a letter from the

40:04

ERLC and National Right to Life and Louisiana Right to Life. They said it from the floor that they did not want women to suffer any punishment for killing their children in the womb for the issue of abortion, which means, guess what?

40:17

If Roe v. Wade, and I don't know why they haven't released the opinion yet. I just checked. Still nothing. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, we've been saying this for years, if Roe v.

40:25

Wade is overturned, you're still going to have to establish justice for the pre -born at the state level.

40:30

You're going to have states like California, Maryland, Washington, New York, Connecticut, all those places, you're going to have those states that say we're enshrining it into our state law.

40:40

You can murder your child. They're going to have abortion mills and they're going to have potions and pills, legal and everything else. Other states like Louisiana, maybe you're not going to be able to have abortion mills, but guess who's still killing their babies?

40:51

Moms. Hey, guess what? It was always mothers bringing their children to the doctors.

40:56

Everyone has to grant this undeniable fact. Abortion doctors are not running around neighborhoods looking for children to kill.

41:03

They have locations. Who was bringing the babies to the abortionist to begin with?

41:09

Always the mothers. When you take away the abortion mill and the mothers are killing their babies via pills and potions, oh, guess what?

41:16

You're discovering it was always the mothers who were carrying this out. So, guess what?

41:22

Kill the abortion mill industry. Destroy it. It's over with, right? Who's still killing their babies?

41:27

Moms are killing their own children in the womb. And now you have the Louisiana legislature that has told the women you can kill your child with impunity in the state of Louisiana.

41:41

And they did that because of the heresy of the pro -life establishment and the ERLC. And that is they say to women you are not guilty for taking the life of your child in the womb.

41:53

And that is to say from a Christian perspective, and Pastor Luke and I, our biggest concern here pastorally, this is the most important thing from the biblical perspective, you have robbed the women of the gospel.

42:03

Because you're saying to them, there is no guilt, there is no shame for you to kill your child. You're a victim too.

42:09

There's nothing to flee to Christ for from your abortion because you're a victim.

42:15

You're not guilty. So, there's no reason to ask Jesus for forgiveness. No reason to cling to the cross for the issue of abortion.

42:22

No reason to cast your shame upon Jesus because guess what? There is no shame. There is no shame.

42:28

You're a victim, sweetie. You're a victim, just like the baby. And so what Pastor Brian, faithful man of God, was doing is he's asking the

42:36

ERLC, is it really your position that she is not guilty? And she should be never seen as guilty.

42:43

And she should incur no criminal punishment. Now, mind you, are you ready? This is the overarching context and it should be most obvious to everybody who was there.

42:53

This is in the midst of the controversy of the sex abuse with the

42:59

SBC. Okay? How do we feel about that? Recognize proper spheres of government and when you have sex abuse happening within a church, you deliver it immediately to the civil magistrate,

43:11

God's deacon, who wields the sword of justice. You don't protect sex abusers in the church. You give them the gospel.

43:18

You want them to be forgiven, but then you hand them over to God's deacon to establish justice.

43:23

If we just recognize biblical standards of spheres of authority and government, we can solve so many problems.

43:29

However, what everyone understood, including the ERLC that week, what they understood was that we want the gospel to go to sex offenders.

43:39

We want them to know Christ. We want them to be forgiven. However, we're not going to deprive the world of God's standards of justice.

43:49

These sex abusers, though we want them to know Jesus and be forgiven, they need to face the arm of the law and justice must be done because there are victims here.

44:01

The ERLC, with sex abuse, believes A, the gospel needs to go to sex abusers.

44:08

B, the sex abusers need to actually face justice. That's the

44:14

ERLC's position. That's what they're fighting for. But guess what? They don't believe that about murdering children in the womb.

44:23

Because here's the answer from the head of the ERLC. Here's the deal.

44:33

We agree on the bottom line. We want abortion ended. We want it ended today. We want it ended tomorrow.

44:39

We want it ended as soon as humanly possible. But while we hold fast to that goal and continually shout, that is what we want, why not support legislation that promises to save one more life in any context?

44:53

I will say this. To get the record straight, no letter was sent directly to Louisiana about a

45:01

Louisiana piece of legislation. Right after... Mr.

45:07

Leatherwood, then how come they had it in their hands? I'm sorry.

45:15

We have to speak the truth here. Is it a coincidence, you think, that for the week after the hearing of our bill in Louisiana before it went to the floor vote, is it a coincidence that all of the pro -life establishment leaders were in a tizzy over our bill and trying to tell people not to pass it, our legislators, don't pass that bill?

45:34

Is it a coincidence that Louisiana Right to Life was really concerned about our bill and telling the legislators not to pass it?

45:41

They wouldn't even mention it. Louisiana Right to Life held a rally around our bill and the time of our bill, and they didn't even mention it to their followers.

45:50

I talked to the people who went to the rally for Louisiana Right to Life. I asked them if they knew about our bill, if Louisiana Right to Life was even talking about it.

45:58

They didn't even mention it. They had no idea it was even happening. Louisiana Right to Life was keeping it as quiet as possible.

46:03

Is it a coincidence, Mr. Leatherwood, that the letter you signed on to appeared in the hands of our legislators that day of the vote?

46:14

Now, yes, the letter said that it was going to legislatures across America, across the country, but it was in the hands and on the desks of the people who were voting that day in Louisiana, and is it a coincidence that it came out right with the vote of our bill?

46:31

Right. It's hard to believe that that's really just a coincidence, Mr. Leatherwood, but we'll go on.

46:37

After the draft opinion from the Supreme Court was leaked, National Right to Life approached us as well as 75 other pro -life organizations from around the country to say, hey, this would make sense since functionally, if this were to be law or this were to be the final decision, abortion will be returned to the states.

46:59

It would seem to make sense that we send a letter to legislative leaders in all 50 states to let them know what the principles of the pro -life movement are.

47:10

Thank you. Thank you for admitting that, Mr. Leatherwood. Thank you so much for admitting that, that the letter went to legislators saying that if the issue is returned to the states, we want you to know the principles, the doctrine of the pro -life establishment.

47:26

Which are not biblical. And our doctrine, thank you, our doctrine, legislators, our doctrine is this.

47:33

The woman is never to be seen as guilty. A woman should have impunity. She should be able to kill her child in the womb with impunity.

47:41

That is the doctrine. That is the heretical position of the pro -life establishment and the ERLC. Mr. Leatherwood, you're now on record for saying it.

47:49

We wanted legislators across the country to know that when you're passing legislation surrounding the issue of the pre -born, do not ever see the woman as guilty.

47:59

Ever. No punishment, ever. That is the heresy of the pro -life establishment and of course now, the

48:06

ERLC. So Brent, brother, you didn't help yourself here at all. You just admitted to what we've been saying all along.

48:14

This is a doctrinal issue and you sent your doctrinal standard to legislators across the country and it happened to end up in the hands of our legislators who were voting that day on a bill of equal protection that would have established justice for the pre -born.

48:27

It would have said what you say you believe, Brent. What you say you believe. I believe you when you say you believe it's in the image of God.

48:36

I believe you when you say you believe it's human from conception. That's what the bill said. The problem is is that your heretical position is inconsistent and it forces you to work against the gospel, against the authority of the word of God and let me just say this.

48:51

I'm not just trying to say this for shock value. I mean this and I can demonstrate it.

48:57

Mr. Leatherwood, National Right to Life, Louisiana Right to Life, and every single organization who signed onto that letter, you are responsible for the blood of every single child who's had their blood shed in Louisiana since the day of our bill's vote.

49:15

It is on your hands. It is on your hands because those legislators were encouraged to say no to a bill that they had all said yes to.

49:25

They were all saying of course that's our bill. They were encouraged to vote no on it and to not establish justice for the pre -born on the basis of your working against this bill.

49:36

Now there's more. Here's what else Brent said. And so in a state like California for example where we are, it makes sense to send that because they're going to have this issue right in front of them.

49:50

And in a state like California, they're going to have to take any available win where they can.

49:57

Here's the reality. You're not going to get me to say that I want to throw mothers behind bars.

50:04

That's not the view of this entity. That is not the view of this convention. It is not the view of the pro -life movement.

50:12

Wow. Thank you. You said it. You said it.

50:18

Did you hear the applause? Yeah. That's why I was bowing. My heart fell into my guts. Yeah.

50:24

Now mind you, to be fair, that was not everybody applauding. That was a large segment of people.

50:31

That was a large segment of people applauding the idea that a woman bears no criminal responsibility for murdering her children in the womb.

50:40

What's that saying? Do you think Brent Leatherwood and the people at the ERLC want a mother who drowns her six -year -old in the tub?

50:49

They want her to suffer criminal penalties? Yeah. Yeah.

50:54

I don't have any question at all. I bet everything I have on that. That Brent Leatherwood and the people at the ERLC would want a mother who drowns her six -year -old in the tub to receive criminal punishment.

51:05

Here's the problem. They don't believe that killing a child in a womb is really human or really deserves to be protected.

51:12

That's the problem, is that you have a class of human beings in your own mind, Brent, over here, this class, that you say, you say we believe it's human and it's image of God.

51:21

You don't really believe it because you just said you think a mother should be able to kill her child in the womb and not ever be penalized for it.

51:30

Yeah. That's heresy. It's heresy. It's against biblical orthodoxy and historic

51:37

Christian orthodoxy. It's against the Ten Commandments. And that, did you see it? Oh, you didn't even see it.

51:42

No. Oh, get ready. Yeah, no. This is my first time watching this. Oh, okay, so get ready. This is a live reaction. Get ready.

51:48

Okay. So you've got a segment of the SBC that's going, Luke, their jaws are going, what is happening here?

51:56

You said that you're speaking for the Southern Baptist Convention. He just said that. Yeah. He said that it's not the position of the

52:02

SBC. Hey, guess what? Yes, it is. Last year, they voted at the

52:08

SBC annual meeting, they voted for abolition as the position and equal protection. What does that entail?

52:15

Criminal penalties. So, Brent, you are not telling the truth when you say it's the position of the

52:20

ERLC and the SBC that these women, I don't want them to go to jail for killing their children.

52:26

I mean, my goodness, can you believe that people actually want women who murder their children to suffer criminal penalties? That's crazy.

52:32

It's only crazy because 50 years since Roe vs. Wade, this entire industry has been run by non -Christian organizations that are not explicitly standing on the word of God, not being consistent, not under the authority of Christ, and so, of course, he's saying, we don't want women to ever be punished criminally for killing their children.

52:49

Really? That's just in the womb, though, right? They can kill them outside, and then you do want criminal penalties because you don't really believe it's equal.

52:58

But here's where it continues to go. That was proven yet again today.

53:04

I believe the same principles that Jesus used in John 4 and John 8 apply right here.

53:11

Maybe instead of rushing in like a mob, we instead rush in with the truth given to us by the author of life, showing we are able to bear the burdens of others and offer the healing that comes with grace, just as has been poured out for us.

53:26

Okay, ready? Great. Now do sex abuse. Yeah.

53:34

Now do sexual assault. Now do molestation. Now do rape.

53:41

Doesn't work, does it, Brent? Do you see the problem? Because you don't believe what you just said.

53:47

By the way, look how he says, we shouldn't come in like a mob. Like people who are saying equal protection for children and women who killed their children deserve to be treated like murderers if they actually do it.

53:59

He's like, we shouldn't be like the mob. We need to offer grace and everything else. Okay, now do sex abuse. Wouldn't do it, would you?

54:06

Especially not right now in this climate, would you, Brent? You wouldn't do it. You wouldn't say, hey, let's not be like a mob with all these molesters and rapists and sex abusers.

54:14

Let's just give them grace and let's come around and support them and love them. Everybody would look at you and they would raise an eyebrow and look at you squinty -eyed and say, what's wrong with you?

54:25

Of course we want the gospel to go to them, but there's a victim. Yeah. They have to go to the state.

54:30

That's the role of the state. Romans chapter 13, wield the sword of justice, punish evildoers.

54:36

That's what the state does. They actually deal with crimes. Is murdering a human being, is that a crime?

54:43

Is the unjust taking of human life, according to scripture, a crime? I hope everybody can see the inconsistency here.

54:50

Brent Leatherwood doesn't feel this way about sex abuse and molestation and rape. He does feel this way about mothers who murder their children in the womb and the reason that he does is because he's being led by a movement, an industry that does not stand on the word of God as its standard.

55:09

They're not consistent. They're wholly inconsistent and that's why you're seeing what you're seeing. It's because of the heresy of the pro -life movement.

55:16

Well, and mobs make threats and there was only one group making threats in Louisiana and it wasn't us.

55:22

That is true. Expand upon that. Well, I mean, like you said, we had convinced the legislators to do the right thing.

55:33

They knew what was right. They were going to do the right thing and it was the pro -life industry that came in and started threatening them, threatening their careers to not vote for this bill.

55:45

So if anyone was acting like a mob, it was your group of people, Mr. Leatherwood. Yeah, there's things we haven't announced publicly and I don't know if we'll ever be able to, but there's things that happened that week that all

55:58

I can say to you is from the bottom of my heart, and Luke knows this, if you knew who contacted us that week and tried to get us to kill the bill and to remove it, you would be totally disillusioned.

56:13

That's an understatement. You would be totally disillusioned if you knew who contacted us that week and how many people were in a frenzy over our bill begging us to pull the bill.

56:24

You would be disillusioned. Disillusioned. If you knew who did. And I can't announce it right now. Maybe one day we will.

56:31

But Luke, you got it. Ready? He said, we don't ever want a woman to go to jail.

56:39

We want grace for her. No punishment. So, this fine brother went up and asked this question.

56:46

Serve mothers and ban abortion and go after the abortion industry.

56:52

Thank you. I'm Wes Brown, pastor of First Baptist Plummerville in Plummerville, Arkansas. The previous speaker rightly referred to a willful abortion as a sin.

57:04

My question is, is it a sin before God by the mother who willfully participates in it?

57:10

And if so, which law of God did she break? All right, so what are they answering?

57:18

Is the mother sinning? And what's the law of God she's violating? Yeah. Very clear.

57:26

Important question. Because you just said you don't want her to ever be punished. So, is she sinning?

57:34

And if yes, which law of God is she violating? Are you ready for this? This is the response from the platform of the

57:40

ERLC. I heard somebody say it.

58:01

Thank you. I heard somebody say, murder! Because he, I don't know who that man is, but he doesn't even know what the actual commandment says.

58:07

Do you see what he did? He goes, thou shalt not kill. Like, isn't it obvious?

58:14

And that's the problem. That's why the question was being asked of you. They can't see it.

58:19

They're blinded. He was like, why are you asking this question? He literally threw his hands up like, thou shalt not kill.

58:24

That's what she's doing. She's murdering. They didn't see it. They couldn't understand it.

58:30

He's asking, okay, you said she should never be punished. She's not guilty. So, okay, here's the question.

58:37

Is she sinning? And if she is, which law of God is she violating? And so, they sit quietly for a minute, looking around like, who's gonna answer that question?

58:45

And this gentleman comes up and he says, thou shalt not kill. It's murder. Okay, great.

58:51

Now, can we continue the conversation? If she's sinning, as you said, and if the sin that she's committing is murder, as you said, from the platform of the

58:59

ERLC, then how come you're saying that she should never face penalties for murdering her child?

59:06

Like, everyone in the audience in that moment, and Luke, this was the disheartening thing, not everyone caught it.

59:12

There was a large segment of people that caught it. They were like, does anybody see the problem of what just was said?

59:18

He just said that she should never be punished, and now you're saying she is guilty of sin and she's guilty of murdering her child.

59:25

There's a problem. Why isn't this connecting? And the reason it's not connecting is because these churches, these organizations have been indoctrinated with the heresy of the pro -life establishment.

59:38

She is a victim. She is never to be seen as guilty. She can kill her child with impunity. And if you think that I am exaggerating, just consider, and we'll stop on this, just consider what happened in Louisiana.

59:53

The legislators said, we don't want to work with bills that would punish the mother, which means, guess what?

59:59

Roe versus Wade. Let's say today the opinion comes out and they say, yeah, we're going to overturn that thing. Great. So in Louisiana, they have trigger laws and they say, okay, great, no more abortion bills.

01:00:07

Great. Who's still killing their babies? The women, via pills and potions. Still doing it.

01:00:12

And the pro -life legislature has said to them on the floor in the Capitol, you can kill your child with impunity because we don't ever want you to be seen as guilty or punished ever for killing your child.

01:00:24

So mothers, you have the official permission of the pro -life establishment in terms of justice.

01:00:31

You can kill your child on the moon with impunity because you're a victim yourself. That's the heresy of the pro -life establishment.

01:00:37

I'd like to thank that pastor for that question and for his excellent beard. Exactly. Very good job.

01:00:44

I had to mention that. We're not going to get to Emilio today. No, it's okay. It's okay. We'll get to him next week and just sort of work through just a short section of one of his messages just because I think it'd be helpful to have this conversation on post -millennialism and theonomy.

01:00:57

But one more thing, Luke, I was excited to show you this today. Okay. So we'll end with this.

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I kept calling it the heresy of the pro -life establishment, the heresy of the ERLC. There's different ways you can talk about heresy.

01:01:10

You can talk about heresy as something heretical biblically. You can talk just in a general sense.

01:01:15

People can say, well, that's biblically heretical. The Bible doesn't teach that. That goes against the text itself. But you can also talk about things in terms of heretical, in terms of Christian orthodoxy, in terms of what the church has taught unified.

01:01:30

We've had a lot of disagreements in Christian history over different areas. You even have some guys who at one point say one thing and then say another thing and you have moments of great glory and face plants.

01:01:41

Christian history, in some points, is glorious. In other ways, it's a glorious mess. However, there's a consistency in the area of the preborn and the issue of abortion.

01:01:52

Heresy is defined as a belief or opinion that is contrary to orthodox belief.

01:02:00

Okay? Traditional belief. And so that's a definition, a simple working definition.

01:02:06

Just a couple things. From the earliest stages of the Christian church, many people don't know this, but during the time of the

01:02:12

Roman Empire, abortifacients were at times a big thing and at other times even banned.

01:02:18

So you went in and out of moments in the Roman Empire where it was allowed, maybe even in some instances encouraged, and other times where it was discouraged and, uh -oh, where population isn't growing like it ought to.

01:02:30

We can't do this anymore. So abortifacients were an issue from the earliest days of the church.

01:02:35

You have, of course, the other end of the spectrum where you have people who were literally giving birth to children and then leaving them to die on the street, to die of exposure.

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And Christians, if you guys don't know the story, it's glorious. Christians in the Roman Empire were literally picking these children up off the ground in the streets at night and they were adopting them, calling them their own.

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They didn't let them die on the streets whenever they found them. And so the Christian church was able to snatch up the kids the world didn't want and led them to Christ and we defeated the

01:03:06

Roman Empire, the evil pagan Roman Empire. But abortifacients have been a thing throughout the ages and abortifacients were something that Christians had to speak to.

01:03:17

So a couple quotes. I call it heresy. Their position is heresy. Saying that she's not guilty.

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The woman is not guilty. Is heresy. Ministers of the gospel, pastors,

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I humbly ask you to pay close attention to that. What is coming from the pro -life establishment is heretical and it comes with major consequences.

01:03:40

The earliest, one of the earliest things we have in Christian history that has come up to us is the

01:03:49

Didache. Pastor James in our baptism series recently went through some of the Didache.

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It is amazing that we have this. It's like this early manual for the Christian church basically extending the teachings of many of those

01:04:05

Christians and it says plainly, thou shall not murder a child by abortion, nor kill that which is begotten.

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Notice the terminology in the Didache, one of the very earliest statements we have from the

01:04:18

Christian church outside of scripture it is thou shall not murder a child by abortion, nor kill that which is begotten.

01:04:26

Now I can go for a long time on this but just a couple references here. The epistle of Barnabas, the epistle of Barnabas, somewhere between 70

01:04:37

AD and 132 AD says this, quote, thou shall not slay the child by procuring abortion, nor again shalt thou destroy it after it is born.

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So they're dealing with both there. Don't kill the child in the womb, slay the child, murder the child, kill the child in the womb, or after it's born.

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Because you had to deal with that early on. Again, you know, typical fashion they would just take their children, they didn't want, they would let them die of exposure on the streets.

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And so in the epistle of Barnabas you have this witness that you can't slay your child in the womb or destroy it after it's born.

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That's clear. There is something called the revelation of Peter.

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Again, we're not calling these scripture, we're not even saying all of these are things that you need to invest your life in and read.

01:05:30

We're just saying that here's some statements coming up through Christian history that are important for us to pay attention to.

01:05:39

Well, let me, because of time, we're out of time here, aren't we?

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I have several I want to read here. In a plea, let me just do this one. A Plea for Christians.

01:05:53

This is a longer section. I'm going to get you guys some more meaty ones. A Plea for Christians. This one was written about 177

01:05:59

A .D. This is from an article just pulling together some of these quotes.

01:06:07

This is from Athenagoras the Athenian, philosopher and Christian.

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He says, or it says, And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder?

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For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life to kill it and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child murder.

01:06:44

Boom. Second century. We can keep going.

01:06:50

We can keep going. Tertullian.

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Let's do that. Murder being once for all forbidden, we

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Christians may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from other parts of the body for its substance to hinder a birth is merely a speedier man -killing.

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Nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born or destroy one that is coming to the birth.

01:07:25

Do we need to keep going? I mean, we could keep going and going and going and you're going to see that it is Christian orthodoxy.

01:07:31

From the earliest stages of the Christian church, it is called murder. She is culpable. Everybody involved is culpable and the definition they're using, you can't slay the child, you can't murder the child, it's man -killing.

01:07:45

You are murdering. That is Christian orthodoxy. And so, to agree with Christian orthodoxy, biblically and historic,

01:07:56

Christian church, you'd have to say that what's happening there is murder. It's unjustified taking of human life.

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Now if the ERLC really believed what they said, that it is thou shalt not kill that is being violated, then the question must be asked.

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If it is murder and she is guilty and if you are truly orthodox, why are you now saying that she can kill her child with impunity and is therefore not guilty and should suffer no consequences?

01:08:22

Again, you don't believe that about sex abuse, but strangely, you believe it about a mother who murders her child in a womb.

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You think that rapists and molesters need the gospel but also need to go to jail. But you believe that a mother who murders her child should never go to jail.

01:08:40

Why? Because of the heresy of the pro -life establishment. It's heresy. Yep. Reject it as heresy.

01:08:46

And it's deadly heresy because it removes... Yeah, deadly because it removes the hope of the gospel from the woman who kills her child.

01:08:53

You're saying that you're not guilty, you don't need Christ for this, his blood doesn't need to cover this, you don't need to be forgiven of this, but it's deadly heresy because it leads to killing bills that would have saved lives in the state of Louisiana, Brent Leatherwood, the

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ERLC, National Rights of Life, Louisiana Rights of Life, you are literally accountable to God for the blood of every child who's been slayed, murdered, man -killed in the state of Louisiana since our bill was killed by you.

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You're responsible. Is there forgiveness in Christ for that? Yeah, but you need to acknowledge it and you need to repent. Repent in a hurry because over 20 babies a day are killed in Louisiana.

01:09:36

When were we in Louisiana? When was that? Oh gosh, I think it was in, was it

01:09:41

May? It's funny, I was going back and looking the other day and I wanted to say it was like March, but that was way too early.

01:09:46

I think it was May. So hundreds. We've had a lot going on. So hundreds of babies have been murdered in Louisiana since the bill was killed by the pro -life establishment.

01:09:58

This is an important discussion, everybody. Continue to pray if you would for the Ministry of End Abortion now.

01:10:04

We are hard at work. People ask, what's going to happen if Roe vs.

01:10:09

Wade is overturned? Our answer, same thing. Same fight. Equal protection in all the states.

01:10:16

Some states are going to be able to still do abortion mill ministries at the abortion mill because they're still going to have abortion mills.

01:10:22

Some states may not have standing abortion mills, but you're probably going to have to bring those ministries to your local target or CVS or wherever where mothers are still going to be engaging in this with pills and potions.

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You're still going to have to establish justice for the pre -born. Roe vs. Wade being overturned does not establish justice for the pre -born.

01:10:39

Not by a long shot. We have a lot of work to do. We've got states we're working in right now. Pray for us. Please go to EndAbortionNow .com

01:10:45

to give, help us, sign up with your church to go out and save lives together with us.

01:10:51

Don't forget to get your tickets for ReformCon .org. Tickets are being sold constantly.

01:10:57

And like I said, we have limited space. We'd love to have you there with us. And we're excited to see you. And Luke, any last words?

01:11:03

You know we have, I don't think I told you this, we have people coming from literally all over the world for ReformCon. No kidding. Ireland.

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Shout out to James. James O 'Brien. And I think South Africa, maybe.

01:11:16

There's like a bunch of places. No kidding. All over the world. Oh, that is awesome. I'm excited about that. A global event.

01:11:21

A global event. Praise the Lord. So ReformCon .org. Come hang out with us guys. Be in prayer for our ministry.

01:11:27

Thank you to all access partners for all that you do to make all this possible. God bless you all.

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We love you. We're grateful for you. We'll catch you next week right here on Apology Radio. That's Luke DeBere.