October 25, 2022 Show with Josh Miller on “The Church: The Household of God”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 25th day of October 2022.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest, Josh Miller. He is pastor of teaching and preaching at Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, a truly rock -solid congregation that I highly recommend to anybody living near Harrisburg or visiting that area.

Today we are going to be addressing the theme, The Church, the Household of God, and we're also going to be announcing their upcoming

Reformation Conference this weekend on the same theme. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Josh Miller.

Hey Chris, thanks for having me on. It's always good to talk theology with you and to do it in this context.

It's just a blessing. So thanks for having me on. Well if you could, for our listeners who have not yet heard you on the program or anywhere else, tell us about Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

All right, so I have been pastor of preaching and teaching here for 11 years.

The Bible Fellowship Church is a smaller denomination, would fall in line with a

Reformed Baptist type of theology, and certainly understanding the application of redemption to be the work of God and His sovereign electing work and applying that to the souls of men through the effectual call of the gospel going forth.

And so we stand upon those Reformation truths. We practice

Credo Baptism, so Believers' Baptism here in the congregation where Elder led.

There's about 60 to 65 churches within our denomination, and those are some of our distinguished

But if you walked in on a Sunday morning, you would see that the Word of God is held out as authoritative.

It guides and directs all that we do, and we delight to be serving and edifying the saints, proclaiming the gospel, all to the worship and glory of our great

God and Lord and Savior Christ. Amen, and I always love visiting there whenever the

Lord provides an opportunity, and I still tell people about an amazing incidence of God's providence while sitting in the pew there waiting for one of your

Bible conferences to start. I was sitting next to one of the sons of the woman who led me to Christ back in the 1980s, and we were having a conversation, and all of a sudden

I heard a voice from the pew in front of me say, Are you Chris Arnzen?

And I said, Yes, how did you know that? And he said, I listen to your show, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and you're the reason

I'm here by God's grace, because I heard you recommend this congregation, and I visited and joined it.

And it was a blind brother who was a member of your congregation, and this adds to the providential nature of that whole story.

I was telling that story to somebody recently at the church where you and James White, just a few weeks ago, were a part of a conference where you were having an interview, basically, a discussion with James, and the couple that was sitting next to me asked who you were, and I told them about your church, and I was telling them the whole story that I just relayed to you on the air now, and as I was telling the story, the same blind brother with his wife and children sat down right in front of me at that church.

So that was pretty remarkable. They couldn't believe the providence of that. Yeah, well,

Josh is still attending our church with his dear family, and we praise the Lord for him. He's actually in an elder training class, and by God's grace, moving towards becoming a leader in our congregation in that way.

So we praise the Lord for his providence, and how he used you in directing Josh and his family here, but they are still faithfully serving and growing in the

Lord. So yeah, what a wonderful testimony. Amen. And I am excited about your conference.

I intend to be there this weekend, The Church, the Household of God, featuring two speakers that I highly recommend to everyone listening, both of whom

I have interviewed on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Nate Pickowitz and Dustin Benj. Tell us more about this conference.

Yeah, so the spirit of the conference is really meant to be a source of encouragement, a refreshment for the layperson to come and just spend the day with like -minded believers and being nourished in a specific topic of theology or doctrine.

And we praise the Lord that it's also a time of instruction, of increasing in our knowledge and understanding of our great

God and Savior. But it is a sweet time of fellowship, and just spending our—it begins at 9 .30,

we move through the day, it wraps up about 3 .30, 4 o 'clock, we'll have three teaching sessions and a

Q &A session centered around a theme, a topic each year. This is our sixth year doing it, but really it is open to anybody who would want to come.

It's a free event, and we would love to have the building full. We have some fun things going on, we can talk about that in a little bit, but we would welcome it to anybody.

And that's really the spirit of it, is to encourage and just give a day of refreshment to the body of Christ.

And this conference will be held this Saturday, October 29th, and also on Sunday the 30th.

And if you want more information, go to gracebfc, for Bible Fellowship Church, gracebfc .com,

and then click on Conference, and you will have all the information that you need.

This is a very important topic. It's a topic that Christians, especially

I think in the 21st century, need to hear, because over the years you will have those that profess to be born -again,

Bible -believing, Christ -loving Christians, and yet they have either a disdain for Christ's Church or an indifference toward it.

They think that they will be in good standing with God by never going to church, sitting home, perhaps just watching

Christian videos, or perhaps not even doing that, but they are so full of themselves, they think so highly of themselves, that they do not think they need a teacher, they don't think they need a shepherd, or shepherds, plural, and they

So they're either not going to church, or for years and years, maybe decades, they just bounce around from church to church to church, never joining any of them, and never submitting themselves underneath the headship of godly elders who watch over their souls.

So this conference I think is extremely important, and I hope that many people in the categories

I just mentioned will attend this, and perhaps be transformed. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, thank you, Chris, for that bit of introduction. Why does the

Church need to go to a conference talking about the Church while it's taking place at a church? It may be unnecessary.

But you hit on a couple of key points there. We've seen this rise in, you know,

I don't need organized religion, I don't need to belong to a local church because I belong to the

Universal Church, I have my home Bible study, I have my peers that can hold me accountable, this sort of thing.

And whether it's pride, as you mentioned, or whether there's a level of ignorance, there can be multiple factors that may lead to that.

But even bigger than that, the importance of this topic, you know, one of our speakers,

Nate Pickowitz, he actually pointed out a discussion that just, you know, every generation, every 50 or so years, it seems that there's a core doctrine of the

Church that comes under attack. You know, maybe a generation and a half ago or two generations ago, if you remember the whole issue with heresy, and the

Church needing to define itself along those terms, we recognize the Bible to be without error in all that it attests to, and that doctrine.

And I think the doctrine in this moment is the doctrine of the Church. I mean, even from both within the

Church and from without the Church, we see the understanding of the

Church, the essential nature of the Church, the preciousness of the

Church, it's becoming more and more popular, I think thanks in part to social media, but the deconversion stories and the deconstruction stories that you see from even who were once popular evangelical leaders or popular leaders in the

Church, just outright open attacks on the local Church, the form of the local

Church. And it's not that the Church should ever be above evaluation, but to slander the very institution and the establishment of it has caused a level of confusion that could be pervasive in some parts.

But, you know, that even from outside the Church, you had the whole season of COVID over the last few years, where churches just blatantly biopolitical leaders were not considered essential, and I think that even caused some

Christians to wonder, you know, why I went to church. And you had a lot of churches, even us being one of them, who adopted this virtual, you know, live stream, and people have kind of considered that their church now, and that is just unbiblical.

And so, for practical reasons and on a personal level, but even beyond that, theologically, there does need to be a reclaiming of understanding of the centrality of, yes, the universal

Church, but the present and localized manifestation of that in the local body of believers, and why we need to be a part of that.

And there's many angles we could take for a two -day conference, you know, there's so much on that doctrine, but the emphasis of our conference this week in the

Church, the household of God. We want people to be filled with a sense and the truth of the preciousness of the

Church, the family of God, and the household of God, and what are the implications of that for the individual believer and the local congregation.

So that's some of the motivation behind the topic and the reason for the conference.

You know, I have said to individuals in the past who have stopped being a part of the regular corporate gathering of God's people, and are either going nowhere or bouncing around endlessly with no intention of joining any church,

I have said to them, why is it that you hate Jesus Christ?

And they are startled, they get angry perhaps, and they say, what on earth are you talking about?

I don't hate Jesus Christ. Well, it's interesting that you say you don't hate Christ, because in Acts 9, verse 4, one of the most memorable scenes that occur historically in the

Scriptures is when Saul of Tarsus falls to the ground.

This is a man who was murdering men and women in the body of Christ, rounding them up and having them executed, because he was a zealous Pharisee, and he believed that this religion, this

Christian religion, was a mockery of the true faith. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him,

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It didn't say, or that voice did not say,

Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting my people? Why are you persecuting my church?

Why are you persecuting my disciples? Why are you persecuting Christians? Now, he meant that, meaning when

I say he, that was Jesus Christ himself saying this to Saul, but he didn't use those terms.

He said, why are you persecuting me? And when people either hate the church, are indifferent towards the church, are bored with the church, mock the church, have no room in their lives for the church, they really,

I believe, in reality, could replace the word church with Jesus Christ. Am I overstretching here?

No, no, but there is a truth to what you are saying and the seriousness of that, and certainly there are those that need to be directly confronted with that.

But it is speaking out of both sides of your mouth when you say you disdain the church but love

Christ. That is a foreign concept in the

New Testament. We certainly have the metaphor of the body of Christ being the church in 1

Corinthians chapter 12, verse 27, and then in Ephesians 4,

Christ is referred to as the head of the body, which we are all growing in maturity, by which we are all growing in maturity.

So that image is not only declared by Christ in that story of Acts that you mentioned, but it's carried out in the theological application by Paul in his understanding of the seriousness of the church, certainly speaking of an interdependence towards one another in that 1

Corinthians 12 passage, reliance on one another regarding spiritual gifts, but it's a very true statement that the local church is the manifestation of, a physical manifestation of Christ on earth, and yes, certainly

I can be sympathetic to people when they're, you know, struggling to find a good church, you know, that's a whole different discussion.

Yes, yes, because I don't recommend that people join any church. Yeah, yeah, but to have a settled disdain or a lack of need for a local congregation, not only for your own spiritual growth, but also for you to serve and to use your own spiritual gift, that is the interdependency that Paul is discussing in 1

Corinthians 12, the need for one another. And to go without feeling that necessity and burden, yeah, depending certainly on the situation of the person, but you do begin to question, you know, that's where the

Holy Spirit pushes the believer. There's not an instance of, you know, either a believer moving towards a local congregation or already a part of a local congregation in the

New Testament, I mean, even from the earliest stages of the Church, and even from some very unique situations, like in Philippi, where there doesn't appear to be, you know, in Acts 16, there doesn't even appear to be a synagogue gathering, but the forming of a church has already begun in bringing together and gathering there in somebody's house.

So that is the direction of, I think, a natural, when

I say natural, speaking of a spiritually natural direction of the believer is, I must find people to fellowship with, to serve with, and in the structure of a local church, yeah.

And of course, I am not intentionally or desiring to be insensitive towards people who have had horrendous experiences by being a member of a church.

They may have been a member of a horrible church, a church with abusive leaders.

They may have even been in a cult, and do not want to trust anyone with their souls again.

And we could list all kinds of horrendous circumstances, because there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there, false teachers who commit all kinds of heinous sins in the flock of Christ, anywhere from false teaching, to abusing authority, to being tyrannical and dictatorial, to even being sexually perverted, and have even molested and raped people.

So I'm not being insensitive or intentionally being insensitive towards people like that.

But at the same time, must we not remember, when we are really trying to express genuine love to those who are not under the headship of ordained local elders in a local congregation, if we really want to show love to them, we cannot allow them to remain comfortable and at peace outside of the church.

And we still must urge them, lovingly and patiently and graciously, to find a local congregation that is

Christ -honoring and biblically faithful. And in the long run, it is Christ we are honoring and obeying by doing this.

And even if any church that anybody visits and joins turns out to be a false church, turns out to have charlatans as their leaders, you just have to get up, dust yourself off, and move on.

Am I right? Yeah. You never check your discernment at the door.

You're always called, even as an individual Christian, to be a discerning Christian, to grow in being able to evaluate truth from error.

And certainly I have shepherded many people who have been stuck in those churches.

What do I do, Pastor? How do I assess? When is it time to move on? And those are never easy discussions, but we're not left aimless, and we're not left rudderless as we navigate through those seasons.

The Bible is very clear of what the expectations of the local church should be, what are the standards held by that the congregation needs to hold to its leaders, and walking people through that has been a part of my shepherding ministry here, people from other churches.

And the more you, as somebody who maybe is in that state of limbo, can't find a church, seems to visit, move on, and there are really biblical reasons for moving on, your prayer becomes more and more fervent.

And the Lord, I am confident, will provide you a body of believers if you are truly sincere and humble and desire that.

Now, His provision may involve you moving, but He will provide a body of believers.

I don't say that lightly. I know families that have had to pack up and move long distances because they prioritize the local church, informed by Scripture itself of the necessity to be a part of the local body.

And they, unfortunately, do not have that wherever they may be living, and want to prioritize that.

Yes, that should be the utmost priority. People put their careers over being a part of a biblically faithful church.

They put even just their earthly temporal happiness over being a part of a biblically faithful church.

They put their own tastes and preferences that have nothing to do with the

Scriptures. They put all kinds of programs for kids above the faithfully preached

Word. You could give a long list of how people are not putting a biblically faithful church in the top priority of their lives, and people will move to a place where they've never lived without even first researching where a biblically faithful church is close to that area.

I'm so thankful that I have many people in the Iron Triple Zion Radio listening audience who contact me because they tell me that they are moving, and before they make their ultimate decision on what city and state they are moving to, they say,

Is there a biblically faithful church that you can highly recommend in this area or that area?

I'm thankful to God that there are people who do put that in a high priority, but sadly,

I think there are few and far between. One of the disappointing things that I've seen, too, is not just in people choosing career locations and whatnot, but even students going off to college, and here you're going to have four years where you are going to make some very substantial decisions in your life, and to be in a place where you are not surrounded by prayerful,

God -honoring, Bible -centered believers who can help counsel you and who you can observe their faith, you are leaving yourself very susceptible to spiritual attack and spiritual error.

Now, many Godly Christian students come from churches, and even if they have to come from good churches, and even if they have to go travel or move out of the area to go to college, maybe that faithful church stays connected in a way that can continue to shepherd them, but far too often

I have seen that, where college students for these four years are just not established in a local church while they're making substantial decisions for their life, and it's just a dangerous game to play, and disobedient to Scripture, frankly.

If we take Hebrews 3 seriously there, in Hebrews 3 .12, about as long as it's called today to care for one another so that you are not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, so, yeah.

We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody has a question for Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, on the theme,

The Church, the Household of God, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could readily understand a theme like this lending itself to people who have personal and private questions.

They may be in a church that they are, their conscience is convicting them to leave it because of something aberrant going on, or perhaps they are one of the people that I mentioned earlier.

They have not been a member of a church for many years or ever for one reason or another, and they don't want to identify themselves publicly at this point.

I could understand reasons like that would compel you to remain anonymous, but please, if it's just a general question on theology, on the scriptures, and on the theme of the church, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Josh Miller right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, host of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program, and our guest today is

Josh Miller, pastor of Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. We are addressing the church, the household of God, which is also the theme of their upcoming

Reformation Conference this weekend, Saturday and Sunday. If you have a question for Pastor Josh, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Before I go to any listener questions,

I'd like you to define some of the key words that are even included in the very theme we are addressing.

So exactly how does the Bible itself define and describe the church? All right, well that's a good question,

Chris. Yeah, we would say that, I mean I could quote you our articles of faith, but that the church is the body of which

Christ is the head. All those redeemed by his blood and born of his spirit are members of that body and are in mystical union and communion with Christ and fellow believers.

So we would say that the church is both universal and local.

It's both visible and invisible. Yeah, when we speak of the local church, we're speaking of the visible church, and it consists of all those professing faith in Christ and are joined together.

So there are certainly marks of a local church that would constitute a local church.

We see those marks given to us in scripture being, you know, this is coming out of the

Reformation, but the ministry of God's word. So the preaching of God's word, the observance of the ordinances, oversight by elders, the practice of church discipline.

So we would see those four distinctions that would distinguish, you know, a group meeting in somebody's home, studying the

Bible, or a group meeting under a tree somewhere, studying the Bible, to what is a local or local body.

So I think those four marks are helpful. Now the function of the church there could be, that is manifested in many ways.

What role or what function should the church play in somebody's lives, in the sense of, like, what expectations should a person have of the local church?

But yeah, that's another question, but we can get to that if you want to. Is that a helpful definition? Does that help define what we're talking about?

Yes, and also the very word ekklesia, does that not mean the called out ones?

Just as we have an example in Mark chapter 3, 13, on the mountain,

Jesus called to him those he himself wanted. Isn't there a very vivid picture here of Jesus calling out from the world those whom he has chosen, those whom he has loved as a spouse?

And for anyone to identify himself, if you were to ask them, do you believe that Jesus has called you?

And they say yes, but they are not a member of any church. That really is a hypocritical statement, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, so etymologically, so the breakdown of the Greek word church, yes, as you mentioned, ekklesia is two words, ekk, and then the verb kaleo, so you have, like, the called out, kaleo is called, so the called and ekk is just the preposition out of or outer.

And so you have the called out ones. Now, it can be used in a generic way, like as a gathering or an assembly, you might see it translated that way in the

New Testament, but fundamentally, basically, it is called out ones, and we see that distinction as far as being called out from the world.

There is a very visible manifestation of that in the gathering of the local church, and John 17 comes to my mind, in Christ's prayer, when he says, you know, when he distinguishes those he's even praying for,

I'm not praying for the world, but those who have been called out of the world.

That's who he's specifically praying for. I like some various, you know, again, metaphors used to refer to the church as somewhat of an embassy in a foreign land.

It is a demonstration of the eternal, the kingdom of God in this present realm, in this world, is an embassy of sorts, where we demonstrate our citizenship to another land.

And then the gathering of the saints. So, yeah, that's all good stuff, all good stuff, and that's really what we want to celebrate this weekend.

And I think, as I mentioned at the outset, that the Church, the individual Christian, even has lost sight of the implications of that.

We can talk about this wonderful, flowery, and beautiful language that Scripture uses regarding the

Church. You know, we talked about Christ's body already. The body of Christ is used to vividly describe the role and function of the

Church. The Bride of Christ, to describe another aspect of the

Church. In 1 Peter, the Church is referred to as the Temple of God. And then, multiple times, the phrase that we're using to kind of guide our discussion and thoughts this weekend is, the

Household of God is referred to as well as the Household of Faith.

But there's implications to that, to being attached with familial language, with family language, to the eternal and most holy

God, sovereign over all. The fact that we bear

His image in a special way, that the divine nature has been placed within us and is transforming us, there's an implication that we are going to more and more bear a resemblance to our

Father. And that is demonstrated in holiness.

As the Household of God, we must learn, too, we must delight in that which is holy.

And for far too long, the Church has really reeked of worldliness and trying to adopt worldly methods, kind of to feed, maybe, a religious impulse that people might have.

And I think, in many ways, it's gotten away from what are the distinctions of being the

Household of God that should mark us out. And this may carry us through the end of the program.

I do want to get to some of the listener questions. Yeah. But I just wanted to ask, and of course,

I'm not asking you for an exhaustive list. I'm sure that after the program is over, both of us will say, hey, there's another one, there's another reason.

But why don't we start off, because I think far too many people leave

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid churches for wrong reasons.

Could you list some reasons that you believe a person is wrong, perhaps even in sin, for leaving a church?

All right. If you will grant me the liberty, maybe I'll take a different angle,

Chris, and just say, what should be your expectations of a local church? Okay.

Maybe that could provide a list of, okay, well, if my church has been doing this, how does the

New Testament hold out the church, both the responsibilities of the local church, both directly and indirectly in Scripture, what should be your expectations?

So one, and one I think people maybe take for granted, is you should expect the corporate worship of God.

You should expect that when the church is gathered, that the church gathers regularly to worship the

Lord. And as early as John 4, with Jesus' instruction with the woman at the well, that there would be a people that soon, and I believe he's speaking of the

New Covenant community there, that are going to worship in spirit and in truth, and it's not going to be in Jerusalem, and it's not going to be in Samaria.

And so, as maybe simplistic as it sounds, the church gathering to worship the

Lord, we see the inference that the church is responsible to develop

Christian character and conduct, both in Ephesians 4, where the church is formed there as a gift from Christ for the spiritual maturing of the believer.

So you see the development of Christian character, maintaining purity and doctrine, purity of life and doctrine, that the believer is to be held accountable to do that.

To instruct the believer for Christian service, to teach.

We see that implied there, not even implied, but directly in 2

Timothy 4, that Timothy is to preach the word there in the context of the local church.

So is the word being preached? Am I being instructed and taught and held accountable to God's word?

Or is there pet projects? And is this somebody's personal agenda that I see promoted?

Or is it really the word of God that is being held out in it, with the expectation of forming the believer there, where you have,

I'm just looking at the Bible, the text now in 2 Timothy 4, preach the word, be ready in season and out of season, reprove, refute, exhort with complete patience and teaching.

So yeah, I guess, yeah, those areas, like you said, we might think of some more after, but is the church gathering to worship?

Am I being expected, I mean, is it promoted to develop my

Christian maturity and purity of life and doctrine being held out? Am I being trained in Christian service or evangelism and missions?

You know, you get to Matthew chapter 28, and the church continues that calling that was given to the apostles in Matthew 28, to go into all the world and to make disciples and baptizing them and to teach them all that Christ has commanded us.

And then you get into even the details, like 1 Timothy chapter 5, with caring for widows.

Is there a ministry of care going on in the local church? That's an expectation of the local church.

We see it modeled in Acts chapter 7, but we see it prescribed in 1

Timothy chapter 5, with caring for widows and the needy there.

I guess it was Acts chapter 6, not Acts chapter 7, but Acts chapter 6. And then, you know, administering discipline, are believers being held accountable?

Leaders, 1 Peter, sorry, just got my mind racing here, but 1 Peter chapter 5, and then

Hebrews 13, leaders are held up to be examples of the faith. So, in my local church, do you know who the leaders are, and are they examples of the faith?

Can I look to them as being models of the Christian faith? I don't know where we're at in our list, but those are expectations that people should have in the church.

And people have left the church where I pastor, and as best we can, we try to shepherd them through that process, if they allow us to do that.

And in here, what are those reasons? And I can honestly say that it hasn't been those reasons.

It hasn't been, you know, well, I just don't see the worship of God here, or I'm not being challenged to grow in my spiritual maturity, or I'm not being held accountable, or I don't catch a vision for evangelism or mission here at this church.

So, yeah, you asked, are there wrong reasons? There certainly are wrong reasons.

You know, people might not find the proper program that they want at a local church for their kids, or whatever.

You know, what program do you have for the senior saints? You know, my old church, we had a, you know, they might say, oh, we had a meal for senior saints every month.

This church doesn't have it. I'm going to move on and find a church that has a meal for senior saints. You know, you don't see that as an expectation or a requirement.

Practically, you do see caring for widows as a part, so you can ask the question, are you caring for the needy from within, the needy within the congregation?

And we'll pick up where we left off there when we return from our midway break.

Please be patient with us, folks. The midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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And to send in your questions to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Josh Miller right after these messages.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Before I take a listener question, I just wanted to clarify that you were giving reasons or things that should be present in a biblically faithful church in order for someone to seriously consider joining them and placing themselves under the headship of the leaders there, the elders.

At the same time, would you not agree that there must be the utmost in humility when a person, maybe a member of a church, they think something is lacking, even something that's very important like you mentioned, and perhaps they should approach the elders privately and in a very humble and gracious way inform them of the issues that are giving you a troubled conscience about remaining there.

And perhaps these things will change by the grace and mercy of God. Don't we need to be more than just a pew sitter when we see something that is going on that is not biblical, or at least that we think is not biblical, because sometimes we're wrong about those things, and to proceed with caution, with grace, with humility, to see if our presence in this church can be used of God for the benefit of that church and the improvement of that church?

Yeah, I think that's a helpful corrective there, Chris, and just your approach.

Certainly we want to be careful not to be quarrelsome, not to look for things that we can disagree with, but if there are strong convictions and you have questions or you need clarification on a certain issue that seems to be contrary to biblical instruction or contrary to a conviction that you hold, certainly begin with the leadership and ask for clarification if there's a misunderstanding on your part and if this is something maybe the church has recognized already and is beginning to make.

You know, sometimes change just takes time, obviously, depending on the seriousness of the matter, but change in a local congregation can take time on some things, and you see the trajectory of the church moving in a certain way, and particularly if the leader is saying,

I can testify that the leadership of the church is moving in this direction and they need support, you know, and so maybe you can be a source of encouragement to them by sticking around and waiting it out and giving the benefit of the doubt to that leader that there is a movement in a more biblical, whatever the topic may be.

And in fact, what we have been just saying reminded me of a booklet that is available through one of our advertisers, solid -ground -books .com.

The Duties of Church Members to Their Pastors by John Angel James and also included in the same booklet is

A Plea to Pray for Pastors by Gardner Spring. I strongly urge you to get this booklet.

It's very inexpensive, from solid -ground -books .com. In fact, if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon,

I think you should—this book is short enough, it's a booklet, remember, and inexpensive enough that you should buy a case of them and put them in your narthex of your church, along with your track rack or whatever place is a visible place of prominence in your church lobby or what have you.

Oh, that's great. That's great. Yeah, so for what it's worth,

October—I don't know who started this, but it was set aside by somebody somewhere as a month of pastor appreciation or whatever.

So what our congregation has done, we have a prayer ministry which just serves to help direct our congregation in prayer, but that ministry has taken on emailing our whole congregation every day with topics of prayer for their leaders.

And man, what an encouragement. I get those emails so I can see what people are praying for me for that day, and that is greater than any gift card to Olive Garden I could get, to know that my congregation is praying for me and to see even the topics of prayer that they're moving through as a congregation as a whole has been wonderfully encouraging.

So endorse that booklet, and endorse the practice of praying specifically for your leaders.

Yeah. And we have an anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says,

Do you believe it is an obligation for a Baptist or someone such as yourself who is

Baptistic, who believes in credo -Baptism, that Baptism is solely for those who are capable of demonstrating genuine repentance and faith, to leave a church that is pedo -Baptist, even if your children are already grown and out of the household?

Okay. So the issue of pedo - and credo -Baptism is a big one, but it isn't just designated to who enters the water of Baptism.

And what I mean by that is there are further implications theologically that can ripple through the

Church. So one that is of importance would be who is a part of the

Church. So that's the question that you might begin to be able to discuss with your leadership.

So when we speak of the local Church, do you recognize, you know, a question to ask you, do you recognize that all baptized infants are a part of the

Church? Because even as a credo -Baptist, like, I recognize that there is a spiritual blessing that is bestowed upon families that gather.

There is a spiritual protection that is there. You know, we see hints of that in 1 Corinthians 7.

But there can be an unbiblical,

I think, if you're not careful, recognition of infants as a part of the local

Church. And you just want to be careful to make this thing, because that's going to affect, like, you know, who participates in communion and Church discipline.

So it's one thing to say that, you know, with pedo -Baptism, with infant -Baptism, that they are being brought into a covenant community type of blessing, but to designate them as part of the

Church, you know, seems to, well, I believe wholeheartedly, not just seems, but is blatantly spoken in the

New Testament of those who have repented and believed. That is the visible manifestation of salvation.

And then the Baptism, to follow, repent, and be baptized. So that's one implication

I can think of. It's not just relegated to who gets, not to be flippant, but to who gets baptized or who gets wet.

There can be implications for how the leadership understands who constitutes the local

Church. Just to throw my own two cents in here, I believe that the issue, the divide or the debate over the

Biblical candidates and even the mode of Baptism is not a reason to mandate that one leaves a

Church, especially if it is not going to be an imposition on somebody's own life, family, and children that would cause them to violate their own consciences before God.

I believe that it is a reason where somebody has the liberty, without sinning, to leave a

Church over that issue. But I personally know of many Pado -Baptist churches as strongly a

Credo Baptist as I am. In fact, that's one of the issues that I just cannot understand, how our brethren who

I love, who are very Biblically literate, some of them even could be accurately described as brilliant.

Some of my favorite authors are Pado -Baptists from the present and from the past. I don't understand how they can have that conviction that babies should be baptized.

But at the same time, if the practice did not intrude upon my life and cause me to violate my conscience, since I don't have any children, if I did not have a

Christ -honoring, Biblically faithful, Baptistic church in an area where I lived or was moving,

I would join such a church. But that's me, and I just thought I'd throw that two cents in there.

Yeah, and I would support that, Chris. I would support that. You want to hear from the leadership, what does

Baptism signify? What is being represented, what is the spiritual blessing that is being demonstrated here in Baptism?

And frankly, a Pado -Baptist would have a different answer to that than a

Credo -Baptist. So, what you talked about, Chris, being confused, like how could somebody

Bible -believing and even Reformed be able to hold the Pado -Baptism?

I read the Westminster Confession of Faith, and I sometimes scratch my head.

I have it here in front of me on the topic. I just opened it up with the question being asked, but it says this.

It's chapter 27, or yeah, chapter 28 here.

It says, "...Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible

Church, but also to be unto Him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of His ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of His giving up unto

God through Jesus Christ to walk in the newness of life." And there's Scripture quoted there, and references to various passages of Scripture.

But to say that that is all taking place in an instant in Baptism, I would have some serious questions.

Is this really a demonstration, a sign and seal of His ingrafting into Christ? Is it a sign and seal of regeneration?

That's what the cradle Baptist argument is. It is a sign and seal of regeneration, but not for the paedo -Baptist.

So anyhow, that's just some of the questions I would begin to discuss.

But I could, in clear conscience, attend a church that was paedo -Baptist with some understanding, and that being clarified.

Yes, and I love it when some of my very favorite preachers who are paedo -Baptists are invited to my own church where I'm a member.

Like Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, who just recently preached at my church. He's one of my favorite of all living preachers.

And I have no problem with that difference existing between my own church and an invited speaker.

Obviously they're not going to be taking that opportunity to convert the congregation over to their opinion when they are invited to speak.

So I have, in fact, one of my largest advertisers,

Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia. I have no problem having them as an advertiser.

In fact, I'm grateful to God to have them, because they see in this program something of great value enough to share their finances with us.

And I'm not just saying that just because they do that. I would not accept the money from a

Roman Catholic church or a liberal Protestant church or some organization that had a false gospel and aberrant practice, et cetera.

So I just thought I'd just throw that out there. Let's see here.

We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, who has a question.

And the question is, do you believe that the Bible teaches a plurality of elders or a one -pastor model?

I believe that the Bible would teach a plurality of elders. We see it modeled in the

New Testament, and we see it expressly commanded in Titus, Titus chapter 1.

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order and appoint elders in every town as I directed you.

So I would see the plurality of elders. Now, even though we would obviously say that is the main reason you believe in the plurality of elders, it's because it's commanded in the

Scripture. But what would be the very serious practical benefits of a plurality of elders?

Well, certainly the shepherding ministry of the local congregation and all that is required with that, but also accountability for the shepherds themselves, and both in personal life but in doctrine.

And every believer is to be in submission, and that goes for the elders to one another.

And when you have a single elder, that demonstration or that modeling of submission, even if it may be done to other spiritual leaders maybe, that's hard to see.

And I think it's important on a practical level for the congregation to see the individual elder in submission to his elder, who's his spiritual oversight in the local church.

So that's a couple practical things that I can think of shepherding, yeah.

And to throw in an additional question that springs from Joseph's question, do you believe in the parity of the elders, that they have equal authority but have different gifts?

So they may have different roles as elders in that realm of authority, but at the same time they have the same level of authority.

Correct, yes. Yep, correct. So I can just see that demonstrated certainly in 1

Timothy 5, where you have those elders are worthy of double honor, but that's not speaking of a position of authority or influence.

But you see a distinction maybe in function, where you see that practically applied with paid elders, those who are on staff who devote their time and effort to the studying of God's Word and the proclamation of God's Word and the organization of the

Church in some very specific ways. But as far as position and authority, the highest office in the

Church is the local elder. It's important to maintain, yeah. And we have

Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, I think the Scriptures are clear that the

Church has an obligation to care for those in need within the congregation, but how much of a mandate exists in the

Scriptures for the Church to also care for the physical needs of those outside of the local congregation, the neighbors of the

Church, those in the community that may not even have any profession of faith at all? Good question.

Yeah, that one's a hard one. And this is why you will always need local elders.

You will always need local elders. The Bible doesn't script out every application here, and this is a good one to think through and where local elders can really direct the congregation.

I think you can evaluate spheres of influence, spheres of responsibility to your community.

You know, for instance, you have an earthquake or a hurricane come through, and you have the means to care for those in your immediate vicinity.

While I don't think that it is mandated, there can be a demonstration of doing good to all men, but especially of those who believe.

So we have a function or a principle that people within our congregation, that no one should be living in a certain level of poverty where they are not able to meet and meet.

Now, there's rising and fluctuating with poverty, but for caring for the physical needs, you know, food, clothing, shelter, there should be nobody in our congregation who has declared their allegiance to the

Lord Jesus Christ, who is submitting to the leadership of the elders here in the local body of believers who is in that position.

So we as elders and primarily actually deacons would function to organize in such a way that to have those who have the means and to distribute those who do not.

Within the local church, there would be an expectation. But as far as the mandate,

I think that's where it ends. Beyond the scope of the local church, there is a spirit of doing good as we are able in the local community.

But our primary responsibility to the world is to proclaim the gospel.

And I don't say that flippantly or lightly. It's not a James type of, you know, somebody comes to you in need and just say, be warm and be filled and send them off.

No, you do minister to the needs as they come to you. But we have a responsibility before the

Lord. Our obligation to the world is to be the herald of good news to the world.

Yes, it does, and of course, we can never forget something that's very important that's found in the 2

Thessalonians 3, verse 10. For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order.

If anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat either. That's a very important element.

We're not supposed to be rewarding laziness and rewarding somebody that, and I know this may sound offensive, but somebody who is a resource vacuum cleaner or sponge or leech, who is taking money from God's people when they are not even willing to work.

And of course, we're not talking about people who are disabled, who are sick, and, you know, things like that.

But if somebody actually as a way of life refuses to work, that person is not to be rewarded.

In fact, they should be under church discipline, right? Right, right. And so that's what can happen in the accountability of the local church, that somebody comes with a level of a need and they're requesting, and the elders have that opportunity then and deacons, and we've done that actually in our local congregation to assess and say, we want to help.

We know that times are hard, but that will also include the responsibility of you being open with your finances, because we're going to take some of the funds that people have contributed for this specific purpose.

And we actually began ministering to somebody and found, you know, like an extreme amount of money was going towards pet care.

Well, are they going to be willing to come under the leadership of the elders and say, this is an area, elders and deacons in this case again, but this is an area that needs to be adjusted, because you're not prioritizing.

We do not think that you're prioritizing what should be prioritized. Yeah, that stuff can get, it's great stuff.

That's the shepherding aspect of the local church. We have an anonymous listener who is responding to something that you said.

The anonymous listener says, while I agree with the vast majority of what you said in regard to how the church is to use its money in care for those in need,

I believe that if somebody from the outside of the church, even if they are an atheist or are an open sinner, such as a prostitute or a homosexual, if they approach the church in dire need, and as long as that person is willing to sit and be counseled and hear the gospel, we should in some way help them.

We might not be able to help them exactly according to their wishes, but to absolutely refuse any kind of assistance is, to me, a bit bizarre.

So how do you respond to that? I mean, I can agree with that, but even in the statement of that question, there was quite a few qualifications that were attached.

Somebody who comes who's in dire need, who is willing to sit and listen to the presentation of the gospel, even the person has some level of expectation as they're articulating the question.

Yes, if somebody comes to your doorstep in absolute dire need, you are called to care for them, but there is a clear demonstration of that.

Now, how long does that care extend? Are we then to continue? Do we have an obligation before the

Lord to see that they get out of the level of poverty to continue to pursue them?

Let's say they totally reject the truth, or whatever, and don't want anything more to do with a gospel presentation.

Do we have an obligation before the Lord to see that they continue out of poverty and to financially support them?

I would say that we don't have that obligation. Now, if somebody wants to continue and come to the

Church, and the Lord used their need in the moment to bring them to a

Church, because they know that Churches are typically kind and benevolent, and then use that for them to hear the gospel, and they start coming on Sundays, then, yeah,

I would be happy to continue. That would be a great use of our funds to continue to encourage them in their growth.

Yeah, I think that would be... Yeah, and obviously you're not helping someone if whatever aid you are giving them is giving them an easier route to continue in unrepentance.

Right, yeah, yeah. And we realize we can't govern all of that, you know.

Anytime you have a benevolent ministry, and I have to remind our deacons of this sometimes, but anytime you have a benevolent ministry, you're going to get taken advantage of.

Okay, that's just a gift. Okay, so we have a benevolent ministry where, yeah, people can come and apply for assistance, whether it's for electric bills, water bills, and we are liberal in our helping of people in time of need.

And we recognize that even with some type of policy and protection, we're going to be taken advantage of.

We can't govern all of that. People are going to lie to us about their situation. But you try and protect against that, because I think in a very real way, we have a responsibility to use the funds to provide wisely and ultimately moving towards the presentation of the

Gospel as we care for people. Yeah, and of course a lot of it has to do with the size and wealth of the

Church. If a Church has only the meager means to provide for the needy within their own household, their own congregation,

I mean, they have to be very cautious about how they spend their money outside of the congregation, because the congregation is the priority.

But obviously I don't believe either one of us would say that a Church that has a soup kitchen ministry, a clothing ministry for the poor, all these kinds of other things are wrong.

That's a wonderful thing when they have the ability, the manpower, the resources to do those things.

But I think that they also have to be diligent to evangelize and proclaim the

Gospel. I'm not saying that they should say, you can't have any soup or eat this bread unless you sit down for a sermon.

I'm not saying that that would be mandatory. But to be known very strongly and vividly and vibrantly as a

Gospel -centered ministry to all that are receiving the benefits of your charitable ministries,

I think is a very important thing, because obviously many liberal churches do those things, but they have no interest in evangelizing those people who are benefiting from their programs, because they don't even believe in the

Gospel themselves. Yeah, well, that's another matter altogether. But they just think that it is sufficient that we take care of the needy, and that's it.

We are not obligated to evangelize them or declare the Gospel. That, I believe, is a serious, serious, grievous error.

Right. Yep. Well, we have a final break that we have to go to. It's going to be much more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question, please send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Josh Miller, so don't go away.

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royaldiadem .com And now we are back with the final segment of our interview today with Josh Miller on the church, the household of God Another key word in this very theme is the word household and of course, household of God is a very important element

How is the church to function as a household as a family as a loving place where people are actually looking out for one another and their needs and their peace with God as they would be even with their own blood relatives their own family their spouses, their siblings their children the household of God although there are priorities in life where our spouses and our children take the utmost priority over a fellow congregation member at the same time the

Bible pictures us as a family and there is to be that close, loving connection and selfless and giving and benevolent connection so if you could pick up on that how is the true church a household and how is it a household of God?

Yeah, well, that language household of God, that phrase certainly creates a distinction of identity who do

I belong to who am I sourced from and also what unifies me with what is the essential unity that I share with my fellow believer it is the fact that we both belong to God this is the defining aspect of who we are the adoption language in Galatians chapter 4 certainly is relevant, because you are

Galatians 4, 6 because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his son into our hearts, crying

Abba Father so you are no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir through God, verses 4 and 5 but when the fullness of time had come

God sent forth his son born of a woman, born under the law to redeem those who were under the law so that we might receive adoption as sons so we have come into this family and have been adopted and it's now our identity who we belong to and the adoption language there in Galatians is helpful in understanding many aspects of our new identity as being adopted we were chosen by God that parallels even with an earthly adoption and that we were brought into a family and now we have rights and privileges that we had no claim to outside of that adoption and he talks about there in Galatians 4, we've become now heirs we've become sons, we've moved from the category in what he's talking about there, not pushing the metaphor too far, but moved from the category of slave to the category of son where before we couldn't have an expectation of inheritance, now we do have an expectation of inheritance and not because of anything that we have done, but because God in his sovereign goodness and in his own will placed his affection upon us and placed us within his family but where the analogy of human adoption fails is in that language as it continues in Galatians 4 and even over in 2

Peter 1 where it says he's given us a divine nature so the spirit now dwells within us so that where human or earthly adoption the child that is adopted doesn't share a genetic similarity with his parents for better or worse he is not going to grow up to look like his adopted parents genetically or bear that however that's where the difference is in our spiritual adoption, we've been given the

Holy Spirit into our heart where now we are being transformed to take on the very nature of our adopted father

God himself so that being in holiness that we have a desire for those godly desires and godly affection and purity those are marks of the

Holy Spirit yeah, the household language is a special language that the

Lord has placed his affection but the very evaluation of his faithfulness and his remaining faithful to us is carried in that category of household of God we have

Christian in Western Suffolk County, Long Island New York who says do not elders have to be very very careful not to emasculate the husbands and fathers in their congregation by intruding too far into the decisions and the authority in that household

I know that the pastor or pastor is plural are the pastors of the church and even the pastors of those within individual households but at the same time, don't you think that sometimes in authoritarian churches that are often sadly reformed the pastors intrude far too deeply into the ongoings and livelihoods and living of those in their households okay, well that that is maybe a whole question for a whole show yeah, definitely maybe a week's worth of shows that is and I want to be careful wading into this,

I want to use my language short on time here I don't want to say too much but you're getting into spheres of authority here and responsibility, it is clear in scripture that there are spheres of authority and responsibility that God has given to the family that he hasn't given to the church you know, you see that the family is given the rod of discipline for the children being raised, the church is not given that rod of discipline

I mean, maybe that's low -hanging fruit to use as an example but an elder in a church should not be using the rod of discipline on somebody else's child that would be moving beyond the elder's sphere of authority the elders should be responsible to hold husbands and fathers responsible to carry out their duties to their family but it is the father and the mother who is given the specific charge to raise their child in the sphere and instruction of the

Lord and so that in that case, you can say that the church can come alongside the parents in helping them to raise their children, whether that's through Sunday school ministries or youth ministries, that can be helpful, but it will be the parents who are primarily held accountable and responsible to instruct their children in the sphere and admonition of the

Lord Like I said, there's a fuller response to that and the ins and outs of when is it appropriate to step in, or maybe for an elder to show up unannounced at a house where there is threats of abuse and where legal force is needed, you know, to call the cops or to bring accountability there

I've been a part of those situations Yeah, as long as the pastor isn't in the house before you get inside the house and somehow illegally entered into your house

But anyway, that was just a joke Thank you so much Pastor Josh, you've done a magnificent job

I look forward to having you back soon and frequently, and to remind our listeners the church, the household of God the conference featuring

Nate Pickowitz and Dustin Benj is being held this Saturday and Sunday, October 29th and 30th at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Go to gracebfc .com gracebfc for biblefellowshipchurch .com

Click on conference I want to thank you so much again Pastor Josh, I want to thank all who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions