October 25, 2022 Show with Josh Miller on “The Church: The Household of God”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living

on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this

25th day of October 2022.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest, Josh Miller.

He is pastor of teaching and preaching at Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,

a truly rock -solid congregation that I highly recommend to anybody living near Harrisburg or

visiting that area.

Today, we are going to be addressing the theme, The Church, the Household of God, and we're also going to be

announcing their upcoming Reformation Conference this weekend on the same theme.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Josh Miller.

Well, if you could, for our listeners who have not yet heard you on the program or anywhere else, tell us

about Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

All right.

We'd fall in

line with a Reformed Baptist type of theology and certainly understanding the

application of redemption to be the work of God and sovereign electing

work and applying that to the souls of men through the effectual call of the gospel

going forth.

And so we stand upon those Reformation truths.

We practice credo baptism, so believers' baptism here in the congregation where elder

-led.

There's about 60 to 65 churches within our denomination, and those are some

of our distinctives.

But if you walked in on a Sunday morning, you would see that the Word of God is held out as authoritative.

It guides and directs all that we do, and we delight to be

serving and edifying the saints, proclaiming the gospel all to the worship and glory of our great

God and Lord and Savior Christ.

Amen, and I always love visiting there whenever the Lord provides an opportunity, and I

still tell people about an amazing incidence of God's

providence while sitting in the pew there waiting for one of your Bible conferences to

start.

I was sitting next to one of the sons of the woman who led me to Christ back in the

1980s, and we were having a conversation, and all of a sudden I heard a voice from the pew in front

of me say, Are you Chris Arnzen?

And I said, Yes, how did you know that?

And he said, I listen to your show, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and you're the reason I'm here, by God's grace,

because I heard you recommend this congregation, and I visited and joined it.

And it was a blind brother who was a member of your congregation,

and this adds to the providential nature of that whole story.

I was telling that story to somebody recently at the church where

you and James White, just a few weeks ago, were a part of a

conference where you were having an interview, basically, a discussion with James,

and the couple that was sitting next to me asked who you were, and I told

them about your church, and I was telling them the whole story that I just relayed to you on

the air now.

And as I was telling the story, the same blind brother with his wife and children sat down right in

front of me at that church.

So that was pretty remarkable.

They couldn't believe the providence of that.

I'm a

leader in our congregation.

I would use you and family here, but there.

Amen.

And I am excited about your conference.

I intend to be there this weekend.

The Church, the Household of God, featuring two speakers that I highly recommend

to everyone listening, both of whom I have interviewed on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Nate Pickowitz

and Dustin Benj.

Tell us more about this conference.

Yeah, so the spirit of the

conference

is being nourished,

and we praise the Lord that it's also a time of instruction, in

our knowledge and understanding.

But it is a sweet time of fellowship.

It begins at 930.

We move through the day.

We have three teaching sessions and a Q &A session each year.

This is our sixth year doing it.

But really it is open to anybody who would want to come.

It's a free event, and we would love to have the building full.

We have some fun things going on.

We could talk about that in a little bit.

But we would welcome it to anybody.

And that's really the spirit of it, is to encourage and just give a day of refreshment

to the body of Christ.

And this conference will be held this Saturday, October 29th, and also on Sunday

the 30th.

And if you want more information, go to gracebfc, for Bible

Fellowship Church.

Gracebfc .com, and then click on Conference, and you will have all the

information that you need.

This is a very important topic.

It's a topic that Christians, especially, I think, in the 21st century,

need to hear because over the years

you will have those that profess to be born

-again, Bible -believing, Christ -loving Christians, and yet they have

either a disdain for Christ's church or an indifference toward it.

They think that they will be in good standing with God by

never going to church, sitting home, perhaps just watching Christian

videos, or perhaps not even doing that.

But they are so full of themselves, they think so highly of themselves, that they do not think

they need a teacher.

They don't think they need a shepherd, or shepherds, plural.

And so they're either not going to church, or for years and years, maybe

decades, they just bounce around from church to church to church, never joining any of them and

never submitting themselves underneath the headship of godly

elders who watch over their souls.

So this conference, I think, is extremely important, and I hope that many people

in the categories I just mentioned will attend this and perhaps be transformed.

What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah,

I have

a

personal

church.

I have my home Bible study.

I have my can -hold -me -accountable, this sort of thing.

And whether it's proxy to

that, but there's a

core

doctrine of the church that comes, you know, maybe a generation and a

half ago or two generations ago,

define itself along those terms without error

in all that it attests, and

that this moment is the doctrine of the church.

I mean, even from both within the church and from without the church, we see

the understanding of the church, the essential nature of the church,

becoming more and more popular, I think, in the media, but the deconversion

stories and the deconstruction stories.

And it's not that the church should ever be above evaluation,

but to slander the very institution and the establishment of it has caused a level of

confusion, pervasive in some parts.

But, you know, that even from outside the church, you had the whole season of COVID over the

last few years where churches just blatantly by our political leaders were not considered essential,

and I think that even caused, you know, some Christians to wonder, you know, why I went to church.

And you had a lot of churches, even us being one of them, who adopted this virtual, you

know, live stream, and people have kind of considered that their church now, and that is

just unbiblical.

And so for practical reasons and on a personal level, but even beyond that,

theologically, there does need to be a reclaiming of understanding of the

centrality of, yes, the universal church, but the present and localized

manifestation of that in the local body of believers and why we need to be a part of that.

And there's many angles we could take for a two -day conference.

You know, there's so much on that doctrine.

But the emphasis of our conference this week in the church, the household

of God, we want people to be filled with a sense,

the truth of

the, and what are the implications for the individual believer

and the local congregation?

So that's some of the motivation behind the topic and the reason for the

conference.

You know, I have said to individuals in the past who

have stopped being a part of the regular corporate

gathering of God's people and are either going nowhere or bouncing around

endlessly with no intention of joining any church, I have said to them,

why is it that you hate Jesus Christ and they are startled, they get

angry perhaps, and they say, what on earth are you talking about?

I don't hate Jesus Christ.

Well, it's interesting that you say you don't hate Christ because in Acts chapter 9 verse 4,

one of the most memorable scenes that occurred historically

in the scriptures is when Saul of Tarsus falls to the

ground.

This is a man who was murdering men and women in the body of Christ,

rounding them up and having them executed because he was a zealous

Judaizer and he, well, not Judaizer, he was a

zealous Pharisee, I should say, and he believed

that this religion, this Christian religion, was a mockery of the true faith.

And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul,

why are you persecuting me?

It didn't say, or that voice did not say, Saul, Saul, why are you

persecuting my people?

Why are you persecuting my church?

Why are you persecuting my disciples?

Why are you persecuting Christians?

Now, he meant that, meaning when I say he, that was Jesus Christ himself

saying this to Saul, but he didn't use those terms.

He said, why are you persecuting me?

And when people either hate the church,

are indifferent towards the church, are bored with the church,

mock the church, have no room in their lives for the church, they

really, I believe, in reality, could replace the word church with Jesus Christ.

Am I overstretching here?

Now, in the New

Testament,

the

metaphor of

Ephesians

4,

that image is not, it's carried

out in the theological application by Paul in his understanding of the seriousness

of the church, certainly speaking of an interdependence towards one another in that 1

Corinthians 12 passage, reliance on one another regarding spiritual gifts,

but it's a very true statement that the local church

can be sympathetic to people when they're, you know, struggling to find a good church.

You know, that's a whole different discussion.

Yes, yes, because I don't recommend that people join any church congregation.

Not only that is the

interdependence of 1

Corinthians 12, the need for one another.

And

yeah,

you know, that's believer.

There's not an instance of either a believer moving

towards a local congregation or already a part of a local congregation in the New Testament.

I mean, even from the earliest stages of the church.

And even from some very unique situations, like in Philippi, where there

doesn't appear to be, you know, in Acts 16, there doesn't even appear to be a synagogue gathering, but the

forming of a church has already begun and bringing together

and gathering there in somebody's house.

That is, I think, a natural, when I say natural, speaking of a

spiritually natural direction of the believer is, I must find people to

fellowship with.

And, of course, I am not intentionally

or desiring to be insensitive

towards people who have had horrendous experiences by being a member of a

church.

They may have been a member of a horrible church, a church with

abusive leaders.

They may have even been in a cult and do not want to trust anyone

with their souls again.

And we could list all kinds of horrendous circumstances because there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there,

false teachers who commit all kinds of heinous sins in the

flock of Christ.

Anywhere from false teaching to abusing authority to

being tyrannical and dictatorial to even being sexually

perverted and have even molested and raped people.

So I'm not being insensitive or intentionally being insensitive towards people like that.

But at the same time, must we not remember

when we are really trying to express genuine love to those who are not

under the headship of ordained local elders in a local congregation.

If we really want to show love to them, we cannot allow them to remain comfortable

and at peace outside of the church.

And we still must urge them lovingly and patiently and graciously to

find a local congregation that is Christ -honoring and biblically faithful.

And in the long run, it is Christ we are honoring and obeying by doing this.

And even if any church that anybody visits and joins turns out to be a false church,

turns out to have charlatans as their leaders, you just have to

get up, dust yourself off, and move on.

Am I right?

Yeah.

To be a discerning Christian, to grow in...

And those are never easy discussions, but we're not left aimless through those

seasons.

The Bible should be.

What are the standards held?

Who needs to hold to it?

Walking people through that history here, people from other churches,

and somebody who maybe is in that state of limbo, can't find a church,

seems to visit, move on, and there are really biblical reasons for moving on, your prayer

becomes more and more fervent.

And the Lord, I am confident, will provide you a body of believer if you are truly

sincere and humble and desire that.

Now, His provision may involve you moving...

He will provide a body of believers.

I don't say that lightly.

I know families that have had to pack up and move long distances because they prioritize

the local church, informed by Scripture itself of the necessity to be a part of the local

body.

And they, unfortunately, do not have that wherever they may be living, and want to prioritize

that.

Yes, that should be the utmost priority.

People put their careers over being a part of a biblically faithful church.

They put even just their earthly temporal

happiness over being a part of a biblically faithful church.

They put their own tastes and preferences that have nothing to do with

the Scriptures.

They put all kinds of programs for kids above the faithfully preached

word.

You could give a long list of how people are not putting a biblically faithful

church in the top priority of their lives.

And people will move to a place

where they've never lived without even first researching where a biblically

faithful church is close to that area.

I'm so thankful that I have many people in the Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio listening audience

who contact me because they tell me that they are moving, and before they

make their ultimate decision on what city and state they are moving to, they say,

is there a biblically faithful church that you can highly recommend in this area or that area?

So I'm thankful to God that there are people who do put that in a

high priority, but sadly, I think there are few and far between.

Yeah, yeah.

People choosing career locations and whatnot,

but

you are not

surrounded by Bible

-centered believers and who you can observe.

You are leaving yourself...

You know, many, many godly Christian students come from churches, and even if they have

to go travel or...

But far too often, I have seen that, where college students, for these four years, are

just not established in a local church while they're making substantial decisions

for their life, and it's just a dangerous game to play.

And in disobedient to Scripture, we take Hebrews 3

seriously there, and Hebrews 3 .12 about today,

so that you are not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

We have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody has a question for Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,

on the theme, The Church, the Household of God, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at

gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could readily understand

a theme like this lending itself to people who have personal and private questions.

They may be in a church that their conscience is convicting them

to leave it because of something aberrant going on, or perhaps they are one of the

people that I mentioned earlier.

They have not been a member of a church for many years or ever for one reason

or another, and they don't want to identify themselves publicly at this point.

I could understand reasons like that would compel you to remain anonymous, but please, if it's just a general

question on theology, on the scriptures, and on the theme of the church, please give us your

first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Josh Miller right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, host of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program, and our guest today is

Josh Miller, pastor of Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

We are addressing the church, the household of God, which is also the theme of their upcoming Reformation

Conference this weekend, Saturday and Sunday.

If you have a question for Pastor Josh, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before I go to any listener questions, I'd like you to define

some of the key words that are even included in the very theme we are addressing.

So exactly how does the Bible itself define and describe the church?

We

are in

mystical

union and communion with, we would say, the church

and local.

Yeah, when we speak of the local church, we're speaking of the visible church, and it consists of

all those professing, faithing, and are joined together.

There are certainly marks of a local church to the local

church.

We see those marks given to us in Scripture, being, you know,

this is coming out of the Reformation, but the ministry of God's word, so the preaching of God's word,

the observance of the ordinances, oversight,

discipline.

So we would see those four distinctions that distinguish,

you know, a group meeting in somebody's home studying the Bible or group meeting under a tree

somewhere studying the Bible to what is a local.

I think those four marks are helpful.

Now the function of the church there could be, that is manifested in many ways.

What role or what function should the church play in somebody's lives in the sense of, like, what

expectations should a person have of the local church?

But, yeah, that's another question, but we can get to that if you want to, but is that a helpful definition?

Does that help define what we're talking about?

Yes, and also the very word ekklesia, does that not mean

the called -out ones, just as we have an example in Mark chapter 3,

13, on the mountain Jesus called to him those he himself

wanted.

Isn't there a very vivid picture here

of Jesus calling out from the world those whom he has chosen, those whom he has

loved as a spouse, and for anyone to identify

himself, if you were to ask them, do you believe that Jesus has called you, and they say

yes, but they are not a member of any church.

That really is a hypocritical statement, isn't it?

Yeah,

called

-out ones.

Now, it can be used in a generic way, like as a gathering or an assembly.

You might see it translated that way in the New Testament, but fundamentally,

basically, it is called -out.

We see that distinction as far as being called -out from the world.

There is a very visible manifestation of that in the gathering of the local church,

and John 17 comes to my mind in Christ's prayer when he says, you know,

when he distinguishes those he's even praying for.

I'm not praying for the world, but those who have been called -out of,

that's who I'm specifically praying for.

I like some various, you know, again, metaphors used to refer to the church as

somewhat of an embassy in a foreign land.

It is a demonstration of the eternal, the kingdom of God in this present

realm, in this world, is an embassy of sorts where we

demonstrate our citizenship to another land in the gathering of the

saints.

So, yeah, that's all good stuff, all good stuff, and that's really what we want to celebrate this

weekend.

And I think, as I mentioned at the outset, that the Church, the individual Christian, even has lost sight of the

implications of that.

We can talk about this wonderful, flowery, and beautiful language that Scripture uses regarding

the Church.

You know, we talked about Christ's body already.

The body of Christ is used to vividly describe the role and function of the Church.

The Bride of Christ, to describe another aspect of the Church.

In 1 Peter, the Church is referred to as the Temple of God.

And then, in multiple times, the phrase that we're using to kind of guide our discussion and thoughts this weekend is the

Household of God.

It's referred to as well as the Household of Faith.

But there's implications to that, to being attached with

familial language, with family language, to the eternal and most

God -sovereign over all.

Bear His image in a special way, that the divine nature has been placed within us

and is transforming us.

There's an implication that we are going to more and more bear a resemblance.

And that is demonstrated in holiness.

The Household of God, we must delight in.

For far too long, the Church has really reeked of worldliness.

And trying to, worldly methods, kind of to

feed a religious impulse that people

might have.

And being the

Household of God.

And this may carry us through the end of the program.

I do want to get to some of the listener questions.

Yeah.

But I just wanted to ask, and of course, I'm not asking you for an exhaustive

list.

I'm sure that after the program is over, both of us will say, hey, there's another one, there's another reason.

But why don't we start off, because I think far too many people leave

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid churches for

wrong reasons.

Could you list some reasons that you believe a person is wrong,

perhaps even in sin, for leaving a church?

Alright, and so then, maybe that

could provide...

You know, what

people maybe

take for granted is you should expect the corporate worship of God.

You should expect that when the Church is gathered, that the Church gathers regularly to worship.

You see that in...

...be a people that soon, and I believe he's speaking of the New Covenant community there, that are going through

it and in truth, and it's not going to be in Jerusalem.

And it's not going to be in Samaria.

...to develop Christian character and conduct, both in Ephesians 4,

where they are to...

...the Church is formed there as a gift from Christ for the spiritual maturing of the

believer.

So do you see the development of Christian character?

Maintaining purity of life and doctrine, that the believer is to be

held to do that, to

teach,

implied there that Timothy is to

preach the Word there in the context of the local church.

So is the Word being preached?

Am I being instructed and taught and held accountable to God's Word?

Or is there...

Is this somebody's personal agenda that I see promoted?

Or is it really the Word of God that is being held out in it

with the expectation of forming the believer there, where

you have...

I'm just looking at the Bible, the text now in 2 Timothy 4, "...preach the Word, be ready in season and out of season,

reprove, refute, exhort with complete patience and teaching.".

So, yeah, I guess, yeah, those areas, like you said, we might think of some more

after, but is the Church gathering to worship?

Am I being expected, I mean, is it promoted to develop my

Christian maturity and purity of life and doctrine being held out?

Am I being trained in Christian service or evangelism and missions?

You know, you get to Matthew chapter 28, and the Church continues that calling that was given to the Apostles

in Matthew 28 to go into all the world

to make disciples and baptizing them and to teach them all that Christ has

commanded us.

And then you get into even the details, like 1 Timothy chapter 5 with caring for

widows.

Is there a ministry of care going on in the local Church?

That's an expectation of the local Church.

We see it modeled in Acts chapter...

We see it prescribed in 1 Timothy chapter 5 with caring

for widows and the needy there.

I guess it was Acts chapter 6.

And then, you know, administering discipline, are believers being held accountable?

Leaders, 1 Peter, sorry, you just got my mind racing here, but 1 Peter chapter 5,

and then Hebrews 13, leaders are held up to be examples of the faith.

So in my local Church, are the leaders...

Do you know who the leaders are, and are they examples?

Can I look to them as being models of the Christian faith?

I don't know where we're at in our list, but those are expectations that people should have in the

Church.

And people have left the Church where I pastor, and as best we can, we try to shepherd them

through that process to do that.

And in here, what are those reasons?

And let's say that it hasn't been those reasons.

It hasn't been, you know, well, I just don't see the worship of God here, or I'm not being

challenged to grow in my spiritual maturity, or I'm not being

held accountable, or I don't catch a vision for evangelism or mission here at

this Church.

You know, people might not find the proper program that they want.

You know, what program do you have for the senior saints?

You know, my old Church, we had a, you know, they might say, this Church

doesn't have it, I'm going to move on and find a Church that has a meal for seniors.

You don't see that as an expectation or a requirement.

Practically, you do see caring for widows as a part, so you can ask the question, are you caring

for the needy from within, the needy within the congregation?

And we'll pick up where we left off there when we return from our midway break.

Please be patient with us, folks.

The midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM

in Lake City, Florida, that airs this program is required of the FCC to localize this program

geographically to Lake City, Florida, with their own public service announcements and other local things.

While they air those local things, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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can, so that you can more faithfully and successfully respond to them.

And send in your questions to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Josh Miller right after these messages.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a Church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net.

Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Ovinio, and thanks for listening.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

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Now, last but not least if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring biblically faithful, theologically

sound doctrinally solid church like Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

no matter where you live on the planet Earth I may be able to help you find a church.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church of

Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and please as always give us your first name at

least your city and state and your country of residence.

Before I take a listener question I just wanted to clarify that

you were giving reasons or things that should be present in a

biblically faithful church in order for someone to seriously consider joining them

and placing themselves under the headship of the leaders there the elders.

At the same time would you not agree that there must be the utmost

in humility when a person maybe a member of a church they think

something is lacking even something that's very important like you mentioned and perhaps

they should approach the elders privately and in a very humble and gracious

way inform them of the issues that are giving you

a troubled conscience about remaining there and perhaps these things will change by

the grace and mercy of God.

Don't we need to be more than just a pew sitter when we see something that is going on that is

not biblical or at least that we think is not biblical because sometimes we're wrong about

those things and to proceed with caution with grace, with

humility to see if our presence in this church can be used of God for

the benefit of that church and the improvement of that church.

Yeah, I think that is

careful not to be quarrelsome not to look.

We can disagree or you

need clarification.

That seems to be contrary.

To biblical.

Certainly.

A misunderstanding on your part

is recognized already and is beginning to make.

You know, sometimes change in a

local congregation can take time on some things and you see the trajectory of

the church moving in a certain way.

And particularly if the leader is saying I can, you

know it's

by sticking around and waiting it out and

giving the benefit of the doubt.

To that leader.

That there is a movement in a more biblical whatever the topic.

And in fact what we have been just saying reminded me of a booklet

that is available through one of our advertisers solid -ground -books .com The

Duties of Church Members to Their Pastors by John Angel James and also

included in the same booklet is A Plea to Pray for Pastors by Gardner Spring.

I strongly urge you to get this booklet it's very inexpensive from solid -ground -books

.com.

In fact if you're a pastor an elder, a deacon I think you should.

This book is short enough.

It's a booklet, remember and inexpensive enough that you should buy a case of them and put them in your

narthex of your church along with your track -rack or

whatever place is a visible place of prominence in your church lobby

or what have you.

Set

aside by somebody somewhere as a month of

pastor appreciation or whatever.

So, what our congregation has done.

We have a prayer ministry which just serves to help direct our congregation.

In prayer but that ministry.

Has taken on emailing our whole congregation every day with topics of prayer for their

leaders.

And man, what an encouragement I get those emails so I can see what people are praying for me for that day

and that

is such a to see even that

they'll endorse

that booklet and endorse the practice of praying specifically for your leaders.

Yeah.

And we have an anonymous listener.

The anonymous listener says do you believe it is an obligation for

a Baptist or someone such as yourself who is Baptistic who

believes in Credo Baptism that Baptism is solely for

those who are capable of demonstrating genuine repentance and faith to

leave a church that is Pedo Baptist even if your children are already

grown and out of the household?

Okay.

Through the church.

So one.

That is of importance.

Would be.

Who is a part of the church?

So that's.

The question.

That you.

Might begin to be able to discuss with your leadership.

So when we speak of the local church

recognize you know.

A question to ask you is do you recognize that all the

church.

Because even as a Credo Baptist like I recognize that there is a spiritual blessing that is

bestowed upon families that gather there is a spiritual protection.

That is there you know we see hints of that in 1 Corinthians 7 but

there can be.

A.

Unbiblical.

Recognition.

Of infants as the local church.

And you just want to be be careful to make this thing because that's going to affect.

Like you know who yeah.

Participate in communion and church discipline.

So it's one thing to say Credo Baptism and Infant Baptism that

they are being brought in to a covenant community type of blessing but to designate them as

part of the church.

You know.

Seems to well I believe wholeheartedly.

Not just seems but in the New Testament those who have repented and

believed that is the visible manifestation of salvation and then the baptism

to fall, repent, and be baptized.

So that's one implication I can think of regarding it's not

just relegated to who gets to be flippant but to who gets.

Baptized.

Or who gets wet you know that's not.

There can be implications for how the leadership understands that.

Just to throw my own two cents in here I believe that the issue the

divide or the debate over the biblical candidates and even

the mode of baptism is is not

a reason to mandate that one leaves a church.

Especially if it is not going to be an imposition on somebody's own life

family and children that would cause them to violate their own consciences before God.

I believe that it is a reason where somebody has the liberty

without sinning to leave a church over that issue.

But I personally know of many paedo -baptist churches as strongly a

credo -baptist as I am.

In fact that's one of the issues that I just cannot understand how our brethren who I love who are

very biblically literate some of them even could be accurately described as

brilliant.

Some of my favorite authors are paedo -baptists from the present and from the past.

I don't understand how they can have that conviction that babies should be baptized.

But at the same time if it did not if the practice did not intrude upon

my life and cause me to violate my conscience since I don't have any children

I would if I did not have a Christ -honoring biblically faithful baptistic

church in an area where I lived where it was moving I would join such a church.

But that's me.

And I just thought I'd throw that two cents in there.

Yeah and you.

Wanted to hear.

From the leadership.

What does baptism signify.

What is the spiritual.

Blessing.

That is being.

Demonstrated.

Here in.

Baptism and.

Frankly a

paedocrist

being confused like how could somebody bible.

Believing.

Even reformed.

Like.

Confused as a.

Paedo -baptist.

Opened it up with the question being asked but

it's that baptism is a

sacrament of the new testament ordained by Jesus Christ not only for the solemn admission

of the party baptized into the visible church but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the

covenant of grace of his ingrafting into Christ of regeneration of remission

of sins.

And I was giving up unto God through Jesus Christ to walk in the newness of life.

And there's scripture quoted there and references the various passages.

Of scripture.

But to say that that is all taking place in an infant baptism.

I would have a serious question um.

Is this really a demonstration a sign and seal of his ingrafting into Christ.

Is it a sign and seal of regeneration.

Like.

That's what the crado -baptist argument is like this is a sign and seal of regeneration.

Uh.

Not of but not for the paedo -baptist.

So so anyhow that that.

That's just.

Some of the.

Questions I would begin to discuss but I could.

In.

Clear conscience.

Some.

Understanding.

Yes and I love it when some of my very favorite preachers who are paedo -baptists are

invited to my own church where I'm a member like Dr. Sinclair Ferguson who just recently

preached at my church.

He's one of my favorite of all living preachers.

So.

And I have no problem with that difference existing uh

between my own church and an invited speaker.

Obviously they're not going to be taking that opportunity to convert the congregation over to their

opinion when they are invited to speak.

So I have in fact one of my largest advertisers

uh Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.

I have no problem having them as an advertiser.

In fact I'm grateful to God to have them because they see in this program something of great value enough to share their

finances with us.

And I'm not just saying that just because they do that.

I would not accept the money from a Roman Catholic church

or a liberal Protestant church or some organization that had a false gospel

and aberrant practice.

Etc.

So I just thought I'd just throw that out there.

Um let's see.

Here we have uh Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania

who has a question and the question is do you believe that the Bible

teaches a plurality of elders or a one pastor

model.

Um.

I believe.

That the.

Bible.

Would be

a.

Plurality of elders.

And

I that the Bible one pastor model.

And I that the would be a and I uh.

And believe that the.

Bible plurality of and

I.

That the Bible would

be.

A.

One pastor model.

And I.

That the one pastor model as elders in

that realm of authority, but at the same time they have the same.

Level

of authority.

Correct, of

God's Word and the

proclamation of God's Word, and and the organization of the church in

some very specific ways, but as far as position and authority, the highest office

in the church is the local elder.

And we have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, I think the

scriptures are clear that the church has an obligation to care for those in

need within the congregation, but how much of a mandate exists in the

scriptures for the church to also care for the physical needs of those outside

of the local congregation, the neighbors of the church, those in the community that may not even have any

profession of faith at all?

Good question.

Yeah, that.

One's a

hard

one.

The Bible

says in your

community, you know, for instance, you have an earthquake and

you have the means to care for those in your immediate vicinity.

While I don't, it can be a demonstration

function or a

principle that people within our congregation, that no one should be

living in a certain level of poverty where they are not able to meet and meet.

Now, there's rising and fluctuating with poverty, but for the

physical needs, you know, food, clothing, shelter, there's nobody in our congregation

submitting to the leadership of the elders

here in the local body of believers who is in that position.

So we as elders and primarily actually deacons would function to organize

and have the means and to distribute those

within the local church.

There would be an expectation.

But as far as the mandate, I think that's where it ends.

Beyond the scope in

the local community, but in

the gospel.

And that, I don't say that flippantly or lightly.

It's not a James type of, you know, somebody comes to you in need and just say, be warm and be filled and send them off.

No, you do minister to the needs as they come to you, but we have

a responsibility before the Lord.

Our obligation to the world is to be the herald of good

news.

Yes, it does, and of course we can never forget something.

That's very important, that's found in the 2nd Thessalonians, chapter 3, verse

10, for even when we were with you, we used to give

you this order, if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat

either.

That's a very important element.

We're not supposed to be rewarding laziness and rewarding somebody

that, and I know this may sound offensive, but somebody who is

a resource vacuum cleaner or sponge or leech who

is taking money from God's people when they are not even willing to work.

And of course we're not talking about people who are disabled, who are sick, and you

know, things like that, but if somebody actually, as a way of life,

refuses to work, that person is not to be rewarded.

In fact, they should be under church discipline, right?

Right, right, and.

So that's what can happen in the accountability of the local church,

and they're requesting, and

deacons, we want to help.

We know of

you being open,

for the same

amount of money was going

to be adjusted,

and we do not think that

you're...

Yeah.

We have an anonymous listener who is responding to something that you.

Said.

The anonymous listener says, while I agree with the vast majority of what you said in

regard to how the church is to use its money in care for those in need,

I believe that if somebody from the outside of the church, even if they are an

atheist or are a open sinner, such as a prostitute

or a homosexual, if they approach the church in dire need, and as long

as that person is willing to sit and be counseled and hear the gospel,

we should, in some way, help them.

We might not be able to help them exactly according to their wishes, but to absolutely

refuse any kind of assistance is, to me, a bit bizarre.

So how do you.

Respond to that?

Oh,

absolutely.

I mean, of the gospel, you

are called to, you know,

care for

them, but there is a clear demonstration of that.

Now, how long does that care extend?

Are we then to continue...

Do we have an obligation before the Lord to see that they get out of the level of poverty, to continue to

pursue them?

Let's say they totally reject the truth, or whatever,

and we have an obligation before the Lord to see that they continue out of

poverty and to financially support them.

I would say that we don't have that obligation.

Now, if somebody wants to continue and come to the church, and the Lord used

their need in the moment to bring them to a church, because they know that churches are typically kind

and benevolent, and then use that for them to hear the gospel, and they start

coming on Sundays, then yeah, I would be happy to continue.

That would be a great use of our funds to continue to encourage them

in their growth.

Yeah, and obviously you're not helping someone if whatever aid you are giving them

is giving them an easier route to continue in

unrepentance.

Right.

You have a benevolent ministry, and I have to remind our deacons of this sometimes,

but anytime you have a benevolent ministry, you're going to get taken advantage of.

Okay, that's just a gift.

Okay, so we have a benevolent ministry where, yeah, people can come and apply for

assistance, whether it's for electric bills, water bills, and we are liberal in our helping

of people in time of need.

And we recognize that even with some type of policy and protection, we're going to

take over and all of that.

People are going to lie to us about their situation, but you try and protect against that, because I think in a

very real way, we have a responsibility to use the funds of the Lord wisely, and ultimately moving

towards the presentation of the Gospel as we care for people.

Yeah, and of course a lot of it has to do with the

size and wealth of the Church.

If a church has only the meager means to provide for the needy within their own

household, their own congregation, I mean, they have to be very cautious

about how they spend their money outside of the congregation, because the congregation is the priority.

But obviously, I don't believe either one of us would say that a church that

has a soup kitchen ministry, a clothing ministry for the poor, all these kinds of other things are

wrong.

That's a wonderful thing when they have the ability, the manpower, the resources to do those things,

but I think that they also have to be diligent to evangelize and proclaim the Gospel.

I'm not saying that they should say, you can't have any soup or eat this

bread unless you sit down for a sermon, I'm not saying that that would be mandatory, but to

be known very strongly and vividly and

vibrantly as a Gospel -centered ministry to all that are receiving the

benefits of your charitable ministries, I think

is a very important thing, because obviously many liberal churches do those things, but they have no

interest in evangelizing those people who are benefiting from

their programs, because they don't even believe in the Gospel themselves, but

they just think that it is sufficient that we take

care of the needy, and that's it.

We are not obligated to evangelize them or declare the Gospel.

That, I believe, is a serious, serious, grievous error.

Well, we have a final break that we have to go to, it's going to be much more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question, please send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Josh Miller, so don't go away.

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And now we are back with the final segment of our interview today, with Josh Miller,

on the Church, the Household of God.

Another key word in this very theme is the word household, and of course,

household of God is a very important element.

How is the Church to function as a household, as a family, as

a loving place, where people are actually looking out for one another, and their needs,

and their peace with God, as they would be even

with their own blood relatives, their own family, their spouses, their

siblings, their children.

The household of God, although there are priorities in life, where our spouses

and our children take the utmost priority over a fellow

congregation member, at the same time, the Bible pictures us as a family, and there is to be

that close, loving connection, and selfless, and giving, and

benevolent connection.

So if you could pick up on that, how is the true Church a household,.

And how is it a household of God?

Yeah, well, that language, household of God, that phrase, "...sent

the spirit

of his

Son into

our

hearts,

crying, we are not

a slave, but

a son.

And if a son is born of

a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law,

so that we

would come into

adoption.".

And the adoption, and

understanding many aspects of our new identity, and that, you know, as being

adopted, we were chosen by God.

That parallels even with

that we were brought into a family, and now we have rights and privileges that we had no

claim to, outside of that adoption.

And he talks about there in Galatians 4, we've become now heirs, we've

become sons, we've moved from the category in that, in what he's talking about there, not pushing the metaphor

too far, but moved from the category of slave to the category of son, where before we

couldn't have an expectation of inheritance, now we do have an expectation of inheritance,

and not because of anything that we have done, but because God, in His

sovereign goodness and in His own will, placed His affection upon us, and placed us within

His family.

But when human adoption fails,

is in that language, as it continues in Galatians 4, and even over in 2 Peter chapter 1, where

it says He's given us a divine nature of sorts, so the Spirit now

dwells within us, so that where human or earthly adoption, the child

that is adopted doesn't share a genetic similarity

with his parents.

For better or worse, he is not going to grow up to look like

his adopted parents genetically, or bear that.

However, that's where the difference is in our spiritual adoption.

We've been given the Holy Spirit into our hearts, where now

we are being transformed to take on the very nature of

the adopted Father, God Himself.

So that being in holiness, that we have a desire for those

godly desires and godly affection.

Those are marks of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, the household language is

We

have Christian in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York,

who says,.

Do not elders have to be very, very careful not to emasculate

the husbands and fathers in their congregation by intruding too

far into the decisions and the authority in that household.

I know that the pastor, or pastors plural, are the pastors of the

church, and even the pastors of those within individual households, but at the same time, don't you think that

sometimes in authoritarian churches that are often sadly reformed,

the pastors intrude far too deeply into the ongoings and

livelihoods and living of those in their households.

Okay, well that...

Yeah, definitely, maybe a week's

worth of shows.

I want to use my line where, you know, short on time here.

Responsibility that God has given to the family, that He hasn't given to the church.

You know, you see that's a family for the children

being raised.

The church is not given that rod of discipline.

I mean, maybe that's low -hanging fruit to use as an example, but an elder in a church should

not be using the rod of discipline on somebody else's child.

That would be moving beyond the elder's sphere of authority.

The elders should be responsible to hold husbands and fathers responsible to carry out

their duties to their family, but it is the father and the mother who is given

the specific charge to raise their child in the fear

and instruction of the Lord.

And so that, in that case, you can say that the church can come alongside the

parents in helping them to raise their children, whether that's through Sunday school ministries or youth

ministries.

That can be helpful, but it will be the parents who are primarily held accountable and responsible

to instruct their children in the fear and

admonition of the Lord.

Like I said, there's a fuller response to that, and the ins and outs of when

is it appropriate to step in, or maybe for an elder to show up on an ounce at a house where there is

abuse and where legal force is needed, you know, to call

the cops to bring accountability there.

I've been a part of those situations.

Yeah, as long as the pastor isn't in the house before you get inside the house.

He's somehow illegally entered in there.

But anyway, that was just a joke.

Thank you so much, Pastor Josh.

You've done a magnificent job.

I look forward to having you back soon and frequently, and to remind our listeners, the church, the household of God,

the conference featuring Nate Pickowitz and Dustin Benj is being held this Saturday

and Sunday, October 29th and 30th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Go to gracebfc .com.

Grace BFC for Bible Fellowship Church dot com.

Click on conference.

I want to thank you so much again, Pastor Josh.

I want to thank all who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.