Discussion about Mormonism

I want to bring you back in. I want to ask you one burning question. You're a biologist. I have two biologists here. I have a burning question that has been asked recently. I'm wondering if you can help out with.

I know that this can't be answered by Supreme Court justices. What is a woman?

Oh, you do not want me to go down this road because sex determination and development. I mean, Dr. Jensen is probably more familiar with developmental biology than I am. But that's a really complicated question, especially when you consider the complexities of human biology.

Look, I actually do. I talk in class about sex determination, chromosomal determinants, hormonal determinants, genetic determinants. What determines sex? See, there's no answer to that question that I could answer in the time that we have tonight.

Really? Okay. It is a really complicated question. It is a really complicated question.

So it's not a question of chromosome. X versus Y? 100 no.

100 no. You can ask me the question 12 different ways if you want, but you're going to get the same answer each time.

I don't think it's all that complex. I would answer it very simply. A woman is what God, who created the women, defines it as. God created her. He gets to give the definition. So a woman is what God calls a woman.

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host, from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rafferty.

We are live? Hmm. Let's see. Let's bring Drew in and find out for sure. Drew, are we actually live?

I think we are, and I hope everything is working properly now.

You know, we should really record about half an hour before the show starts so everyone could see the chaos that we just went through. We're actually very happy to be speaking to one another after about 30 minutes of technical problems on both our sides.

It can't just happen to one of us. It's got to happen to both.

Both, yeah. Well, I am Andrew Rappaport. I'm joined by Drew Von Nida. That's correct.

I know. I got it right. You know, you did say it right. Yeah.

I know. I usually do it wrong on purpose. So, all right. First off, let's see. We got some shout outs coming from the room here, those in the chat. We got our blessings from Brother John in Canada, eh?

He also said that I am listening. Well, I think he meant to say listening. He said I'm listing. But I think he meant listening. Andrew, preaching at Harvest Bible Fest, a fellowship five days ago, good teaching.

I taught on Isaiah, Isaiah 6, and what defines success in ministry. That was enjoyable. Also, we got, let's see, we have Jason Cave saying blessings from Georgia. That's some country down south, right?

You would know about that, right, Drew?

Yeah, it's probably the greatest state in the Union. I mean, I don't want to brag or anything, but we do have this team called the Georgia Bulldogs. Yeah, I know. National champs. Well, back-to-back national champs.

And then we also have the Atlanta Braves. They're killing it right now. Eight All-Stars. I mean, the entire infield of the All-Star game was the Atlanta Braves. I mean, Georgia's just killing it right now.

Well, I know nothing about that.

See, even Jason says amen and amen.

Yeah, right. Sure. Okay. Well, you know, Dee is welcoming. She's saying blessings from the People's Republic of California. Here's a fellow Pennsylvanian, whatever we'd call ourselves. Bible Care and Share Fellowship is saying smash the like button.

Why does everyone say smash? And he's got it in all caps, so he's yelling at us. Now, why do you smash? He's yelling at us to smash a like button. I don't know about that. Just saying. It's the excitement.

It's the excitement. All right. And we got someone that backstage already could be a fun discussion. We may not get to Calvinism, but Jackson Washburn is saying blessings from Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Happy to join as a Mormon and follower of Christ. So we may have to get to that before we get to the anti-Calvinism video. By the way, so let's explain what the video is. This was sent to me. I had a video that was sent to me.

I downloaded it so I can't remember the YouTube channel I got it from right now. Sorry. I downloaded it so we wouldn't have connection issues playing it. That's what I try to do. So this was an hour and a half video.

If we get to playing it, we'll play it at one and a half speed to kind of speed it up. We're Drew and I plan on cutting this up. We're going to do two hour shows. We're not going to go long, but we do plan to do this maybe over a couple of weeks because, well, there's a lot of really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really bad arguments in this.

And this was sent by a listener that wanted to get our opinion on this because someone sent it to him. And we said we tried it. I wanted to play. I want to play the whole thing in, you know, in context so that people can't accuse us of chopping up.

I did go to the YouTube channel and ask the person when I downloaded if he'd be willing to come on and talk with us about this video. I didn't hear boo, and that was months ago. So what's the channel that you got it from?

You're afraid you're going to ask that. Let's see.

Well, I want to check out their other stuff, too, just to see if it's all bad. I mean, this video was really, really, really bad. So I just want to see how bad the other stuff is.

Really, really, really, really, really, really bad? Right. I would assume, but I, you know, shouldn't go assuming things. Well, I'm trying to look who sent it. I did find a chairlift on air for Air Force One with Biden on it, but I don't think that's what he was.

OK, so this is this is from the. Forrest and the Trees, and I think I'm guessing it's they have a podcast, too, so Forrest and the Trees is the YouTube channel. And the episode we were looking at was Romans nine.

Just don't think about it with Greg Boyd. That's actually a really fitting title, because I think that's exactly what they weren't doing, thinking about it. Right. I'm just saying, but we're going to have to hold off on that because instead of jumping to that, we usually do the first hour would be our topic.

Second, our questions. But since we this is one we plan to do for a while and I actually asked Jackson Jackson, I think is what it is. But we're going to find out in a moment because he as I told him, he trolls my my wall because my wall is mostly public.

He is Mormon. So they correct that because I know they've changed that. You know, someone has a dream and it changes overnight, but their church, Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which was something that just changed recently that they're not speak to be called not to take the name Mormon anymore.

We'll see if that's offensive to him or if not in a moment. But we've gone back and forth and I posted some things, made comments. And I basically said that since he comes on my wall and people think he's a Christian and he's not, that I would just every time he comes on, point out the fact that he's worshiping a false religion.

And I challenged him to come on and let's have the discussion. And therefore, kudos to him, because very few want to do that. Very few. In fact, I should I was meant to start off with the fact that this past weekend, we're out with Hearts for the Lost in Indianapolis, Indiana, and doing a evangelism training with those guys.

Great, great time. But Drew, I don't know if you saw the pictures. Did you see who I was having discussions with? I didn't. Oh, well, I did have some discussions with Jehovah Witnesses, which surprised me.

Because one of the guys told me he wants to have a discussion. He wants to evangelize Jehovah Witnesses. And I say, they usually only give me about four minutes because once they know you actually know the Bible, they go, OK, we're not here to argue.

We're just here to answer questions. And I usually go, but that's what I'm doing, asking questions. And so, yeah, so they actually we had I had a conversation with one gentleman for over 45 minutes. Then we went to a different stand and one of the other guys had a conversation for over 45 minutes.

So it was great. But then that's right. The black Hebrew Israelites, you know, those fake Israelites that think they're Israel when they're really not. And so we met one guy by himself. He had a. Well, remember when you were a kid and you went to Burger King and they gave you that king's crown?

Yeah. Yeah. That's basically what he had on his head. A little plastic crown. And he said that he was Jesus and he never sinned. He he he cannot sin, which is for telling lies, except for. Yeah, I said, you know, did you know that arrogance is a sin?

Because you got a lot of it. It wasn't out there, sir. He was judging people. And it was an interesting conversation till I mentioned I'm a Levite and oh, the racism came out. But then we had the whole group.

Then we had the group mentality. We had a whole bunch of them. And, you know, it's amazing because I was having a good conversation with one guy. I wanted to test out a new argument. Now, your regular listeners here.

You know that they make a case out of the last verse of Deuteronomy 28 because it has the word ship in it. And it talks about people going to Egypt, Israelites going to Egypt by ship and selling themselves as slaves, or selling themselves where they have no buyer.

And they take the word ship literal. Everything else is figurative. Egypt means slavery. It doesn't mean Egypt. Selling themselves without a buyer means redemption. So it's everything is not literal except for one word ship.

And in my devotions, I noticed in Jeremiah 44, it talks about Israelites going because of the Assyrian invasion going to where? Egypt. And I wanted to see how they would respond to that. So I was having a good conversation with one guy.

And once I brought that out and he was not ready for it, and they were kind of not trying to figure out, why would they go by a ship? And I pulled out the map in the back of my friend's Bible. And I said, look, it's a straight line.

What's the fastest way between two points? A straight line. And if you're in a rush to get somewhere, I said, have you been to Israel? Have you walked around there? It's all mountainous and rocky. You're not walking quickly if you're in a rush.

That's the fastest way. He's like, it makes no sense to me. I said, that's OK. It makes more sense to everyone else in the world. And so the reality is that he was replaced with the real, like, obviously, the big guy had the big guns.

And so that guy just started talking over me using the mic as, you know, hey, he's got the mic. I know how that works. And so I challenged him to come on and he didn't come on. I didn't. I knew he wouldn't.

Because once I mentioned I was a real Israelite, a Levite, he just went nuts with the racism.

But Jackson... I'm surprised he didn't reach out to Osh. Oh, yeah.

Tell me about this Edomite. Yeah, yeah. So, OK, so I should put this up. You're talking about ball teams and not that I know. I know they're at least from Philly. But here, Bible Care and Share Fellowship says go Phillies to your thing earlier.

Is he a Bryce Harper fan?

Oh, I have no idea. But he and I are. So I'm back in town and I should, he and I should get together. So contact me. We got to get together for, well, I'm not supposed to drink coffee anymore, but we'll get together for something.

All right. So before we get, I see you start this one. How's Dr. Svester doing these days? Traveling like all over the place. Yeah. Is how he's doing.

I look at his Facebook and he's in a different place almost every day.

You know, look, for folks, I think most people know he sold his practice. He's still working. He works like two days a week, unlike the rest of us that usually have a two day weekend and work five days.

He's got a five day weekend and works two days. So, you know, it's rough. It's rough. But he is like traveling all over the place, like mad. So let me let me bring Jackson in and let's have a discussion on Mormonism.

And then if we get time, if not, we'll pick up this video next week. This anti-Calvinist video, which totally means we're just saying for the record, this wasn't, you know, clickbait to get you to click on a video.

But we do have some backstage and we do want to try to get to to people answering people's questions and that. So welcome, Jackson. How are you?

Good. How are you? Thanks so much, Andrew. Did I pronounce your name right?

Yes. Yes. Jackson. OK, because it's J-A-X-O-N, right?

Yes. So, yeah, that kind of reveals my Mormon background a bit because that spelling took off the year I was born in the state of Utah. So, OK. Yeah.

See, you learn something new every day. So I didn't know that. So good. So so let's start, you know, first off, I'm glad you came in because, you know, as I said earlier, quite frankly, a lot of people aren't up to the challenge to having discussions.

I don't think I'm that scary. Drew might be. He's he's got, you know, all those.

I can be pretty intimidating. Yeah. I think I think it's the cap turned backwards. That must be it. Yeah, it gives me street cred.

I think he probably has like a, you know, John Calvin bobblehead, I bet back there. Martin Luther. Oh, OK. Close.

I knew you had a bobblehead somewhere. I just remember it was a it was a Christmas gift from my wife one year. As a joke? No, it was a real gift. I was surprised. It's you know, I was like, oh, this is great.

I can put it on my desk because she was trying to get me desk accessories. And so she got me that and it doesn't even sit on my desk. It sits on a bookshelf right in front of my collection of Martin Luther.

OK, you know, some heretics are really coming into chat now. Look at this guy, Chris.

Chris. Huff, go braves.

That's heretical right there. I mean, well, I'm for the brave.

Chris, is that is that your co-host on Matter of Theology there, Drew? Just saying. Honestly, I don't know. There hasn't been an episode of Matter of Theology in, well, a long time.

I think he's I think he's a personal trainer now. Is that?

Yeah, well, he's got some catching up to do with his with Dwayne there. You know who is. Oh, right. Yeah. Just master there. So, Jackson, did you grow up in Mormonism? Let me first correct. Do you find the term Mormon to be offensive?

Let me ask. No, not at all. OK, good. Because I don't you saying the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints is a mouthful to be saying that over and over again all night. So if I if I could just go with Mormon or LDS and you're not offended.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that's totally fine. You know, within the faith, it is true that Latter-day Saint would probably be more normative nowadays and preferred. But I certainly don't take offense when I use the traditional reference.

Yeah, I mean, well, OK, I made this reference and not everyone follows what goes on in Mormonism. So let me just clarify that the current president who has always been against the term Mormon, actually.

Now, I'm going to pause. Jackson, what kind of mic are you using, Dina?

Oh, I'm just using my standard laptop mic. I don't know that I I could put in like earbuds if that might help.

That might help because when you're not talking, it's it's acting. It was acting just like yours was earlier, Drew, where it's just you were getting a hissing noise.

Yeah. I mean, even even now, I think there's still some feedback. And so so I'm still just muting myself.

OK. All right. So so and Jackson, what we might need to do is when you're not talking, maybe just mute to.

Yeah. Let's see. I'm connecting my AirPods right now.

If your AirPods work, then that'll be good. So so the current president who is he's always had an issue with the term Mormon. So it's not this isn't a new thing for him. It was something where now that he's president, he gets to make the rules of profit, I should say.

You know, he just he decided he said that this was from God, that we shouldn't use that term anymore. So it changed overnight. I mean, Mormonism dot org became I think it's come to Christ. Dot org is the new Web site for Mormonism.

I believe Jackson is is muted. So he's trying to get that connected when he unmutes.

We'll we'll verify that. There we go. Is that better? Yes. Much better. Perfect. Thanks so much.

Yeah. So. So, yeah, so I you know, you guys have the one president and I'm drawing a complete blank on the current and not present profits name.

Yeah. Profit or president would be appropriate. Russell and Nelson.

OK, that's it. All right. Sorry. So, yeah. So he is and basically the way that works is, you know, he he had come out and and said, oh, I know that the name has to change. So Mormon Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

I don't know what that did that name change.

Yeah, that's that's now the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square.

OK, so just drop the Mormonism. The Web site Mormonism Mormon dot org became. I think it's it's. What is it? Is that right? Yeah, let me check real quick. OK, well, now I don't feel so bad that I didn't have it memorized.

That's good. All right. And we already have our first question for you.

Well, yeah. So it would be Church of Jesus Christ dot org. And there's like a separate I think there's a separate come unto Christ or something like that. Yeah. OK, so.

Joseph Smith, the First Vision, and the Burned-Over District

So here's the here's the first question for you in this. This actually will start off some discussion. And let me actually ask you, Jackson, do you have anything you came in to discuss?

I should ask you that. Well, no, not in particular. You know, I know you made the invitation for me to come have a chat. And so I just, you know, typing on social media, you can lose a lot of nuance and efficacy and communication, you know.

So I always prefer, you know, face to face or virtual dialogue, you know, through this kind of medium.

Absolutely. Because I'm often misunderstood because I hate typing.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel you.

Yeah. So Dee asks this question. I think this would be a good one to start off. So she wants to know, would you refer to yourself as a Christian? And this was exactly our discussion that we had. So it's it's almost like Dee was following us, maybe.

I don't know. But so would you consider yourself to be a Christian?

Well, if you don't mind, I know you asked me just a moment ago if I was raised Mormon. And if I could just give like a very quick background and then get to this question. Yeah. So I was raised in a Latter-day Saint family in Arizona.

When I was 12, my mom converted out of the faith. My parents stayed married and she became an evangelical Christian. And so through my teenage and high school years, I attended a non-denominational local Christian church.

My siblings and I would switch off churches every week. But as the oldest sibling and I quickly realized that I'm kind of a nerd about religion, I would double up on church every Sunday. And so, you know, that's something that's really sparked my interest in religion broadly.

A lot of interfaith work that I've done. And, you know, I felt that relative to other peers within my faith community, you know, I've had certain forms of exposure or experience in multiple faith communities.

So that's just a little bit about my background. And then as to as to this question, would I refer to myself as Christian? I'd certainly be comfortable with that label. Typically, if someone asks me, you know, like how I would identify religiously, I would say Latter-day Saint or Mormon qualifying, if needed, that that I would also consider myself a Christian.

Okay. And so let's give some folks, because I don't want to take for granted that everybody listening is familiar with the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints or its teachings. So with that, because it's something where we need to give some background.

I just I don't want to just jump into a discussion without and not have the audience follow along with us. Yeah. Let me let you actually do this since you're the one that's that's Mormon. Could you provide kind of Joseph Smith, who's the founder, right?

Joseph Smith's account of why he why Mormonism, why he felt the other religions weren't right. You know, basically, you know, the whole, you know, the appearances with with the gold plates, things like that.

Yeah. And I certainly want to be respectful of your your own time and intent for for this episode tonight. I know that the Mormon segment wasn't necessarily scheduled. So, you know, I'll try to keep things brief and maybe I could return for a more extended conversation in the future.

It could just be that Drew and I both know the video and, you know, the headache is bad enough. I watched it a few like a month or so ago. I sent it to Drew like a few weeks ago and we both watched it again today just to be fresh.

And it's just painful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still have a headache. So maybe maybe it's just we were trying to avoid it. I don't know. I would say that we would. I did tell someone we would cover it and we should.

But we don't have to. Yeah. Yeah. To answer your question. Mormonism as a religious movement begun began in the context of 19th century America within the particularly the burned over district of upstate New York.

And so folks, because maybe not everyone knows.

Yeah. Yeah. So the burned over district essentially got its moniker due to the extensive revivalism during the Second Great Awakening that kind of characterized the region. A lot of religious excitement, as Joseph Smith characterized it.

And so you had various camp meetings, revivalist efforts and denominational. I don't want to say disputes, but like contestations, you know, on maybe doctrinal or theological grounds. And so, yeah, you know, various denominations, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, others definitely spent time in the region.

And the region outside of Mormonism was kind of the origin for for several other American religious movements as well. So anyways, they say it was burned over by the spirit, basically.

And that's how it got its name. And just someone's Kathy saying, oh, yes, Charles Finney. So so we have to recognize this was the works of Charles Finney that was going on back then. A quote unquote revival.

And I say that way because folks who study Finney, when you look at what Finney believed, we would say he probably wasn't saved. What moralism and had had a huge impact. I mean, he was a very from what we know, a very dynamic speaker, very engaging, but he taught moralism.

He was a Pelagian. Well, when when you say Pelagian, he was one who did not believe in original sin. He did not believe that man was born in a sin nature. And he believed that man could choose in a part of themselves, choose God because his nature was good.

And so, hey, we got to two things that I see here real quick before Jackson continues. One, we set a record, by the way, drew the earliest call for a MyPillow commercial. I see that. Eight minutes. We're going to need a MyPillow tonight with with all the headaches.

So so while we just get that, you know, we'll mention that right off the bat, since, you know, we probably the only audience I know where the where people request commercials. But if you are going to have a headache, maybe you should order yourself a MyPillow right now and and get ready for the heck.

By the way, I will say that we had someone that came in a couple of weeks ago and ordered a MyPillow and he went to MyPillow .com, order himself his very first MyPillow and tried to use the promo code SFE for striving for eternity.

And somehow something happened. He said it actually switched to daily wire. So, folks, if you're ordering from MyPillow and you're you put it in the promo code SFE to get your discounts and show your support here.

Let me know if it changes on you. If that's happening to more people. I do want to know about that because we did verify, yes, it actually did change and it did go to MyPillow with that. So but they have some great discounts there.

I think they're still running their slippers at twenty five dollars. So really good to I am wearing those slippers right now. Actually, I was in Indianapolis with the guy who bought his first MyPillow and I said, I got mine right there.

It's in my bag. And he was like, you really do travel with it. Yes, I do. So so there. So the other thing that I saw pretty early, let me find that. Where was that one? Oh, here we go. We have our first.

This is becoming a thing of how fast someone from the Philippines says good morning. But now here I know who this is, but she's she's not going by her real name here. So I'll just say it's it's years worthwhile.

But she says good morning from from this part of the globe, the Philippines. Hello, Pastor Andrew, which I will be back there in April to the Philippines. And we're setting up. Justin Peters and I will be doing some talks on charismatic movement.

And I do think we have a debate we're working on. So that'll be good. And I will hopefully be seeing some gold friends. Well, they're not old, but but the person years worth years worthwhile. I'm not going to give her name since she didn't unless she wants to.

But I do happen to know I think she's got an addition to the family. If I remember seeing that. So there you go. I'll be able to maybe see some a larger family next time. So with that. So we're talking about Phinney with the Burnover District.

Charles Phinney was someone who, you know, we just got to realize, I would argue, led many people to hell. I mean, he had a false gospel message. He wasn't preaching about coming to Christ as much as teaching moralism.

And so that was very prevalent in the area where Joseph Smith was. So Jackson was talking about that area. So we just have to we have to put everything in its cultural context as well. So this is what was being discussed.

So continue, Jackson.

Yeah. So like like we established, that was kind of the the religious milieu of Joseph's time. And upon his family's moving to upstate New York, Joseph finds himself at the center of these controversies.

Now, within his own family, there was a degree of religious variation with different parents, for instance, feeling inclined towards different Christian groups. His mother, for instance, being more partial to Presbyterianism, which was kind of more synonymous with the Reformed or Calvinist theology, you could say.

Joseph spent time in Methodist circles. His father was partial to perhaps like universalism or the seeker type label. And so definitely Joseph felt this degree of, you know, maybe uncertainty or religious tension, both, you know, contextually and within his own family household.

And there's, you know, historical evidence that supports that he, you know, was bothered by this, that he wanted to figure out these theological questions and concerns that he had, primarily and kind of perhaps most originally over the state of his own soul, over, you know, whether or not he could obtain forgiveness.

And if so, how, and if so, within which group, within which theological context. So he's wrestling with a lot of these things. And eventually, as a teenager around the age of 14 or 15 years old, goes into, according to his own narrative, goes into a nearby grove of trees after being moved by the Bible to petition God in prayer for further guidance.

And it was in that context that Smith claimed to have experienced a miraculous theophany, wherein he saw, envisioned God and received a forgiveness of his sins. And the particular significance of this event kind of developed as Joseph got older.

Later, in probably the most popular account of the first vision experience, as it was called, Joseph also takes the event to signify that none of the religious groups within his context were totally correct.

And that, in fact, a total restoration of the gospel message was necessary. So that was kind of the formative event that kind of launched his own prophetic ministry, you could say, his prophetic career.

Joseph Smith Versus Muhammad, Inspiration, and Scriptural Authority

Okay, so some questions that are coming in for you. And I know there's some that are going to be kind of, so John, I'm just going to, I'm saving your question for later, just because it's going to be, it's just stay on track with some things.

But Dee's asking this question, why should I believe Joseph Smith's revelation and not Muhammad's? Now, I'm just going to say it is kind of interesting. Jackson, I don't know if you've looked at the two, but there's a lot of similarities between the account with Muhammad and Joseph Smith, both going away, one in a cave, one in the woods, an open area, both saying they're receiving a message from an angel, both questioning that, being convinced of it.

So there's a lot of similarities. But why should someone believe Joseph Smith's revelation over Muhammad?

Oh, well, you know, I would just, you know, invite that individual to, you know, really study both Mormonism and Islam and really sincerely try to come to their own conclusions on this topic. I would consider Muhammad to be an inspired individual within the context of Mormon theology.

Muhammad would be viewed as not necessarily as a prophet in the same sense, in the same formal theological sense that individuals like Russell and Nelson or Joseph Smith would be understood as, but certainly one that received inspiration from God, produced degrees of moral refinement or progression for his own context.

And so I certainly don't want to dismiss offhand Muhammad's experiences as best as we can understand them historically. So I have a question about that. Yeah. With what you said, because you said you believe Muhammad to be an inspired individual.

Does that mean that the Koran also could be viewed as sacred scripture alongside the Book of Mormon? Yeah, so certainly within the Latter-day Saint canon, the Koran wouldn't be present. But I don't think it's contrary to Mormon theology to view the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, various other sacred texts as containing various degrees of inspiration.

And given that Mormonism wouldn't, I guess, couple divine inspiration with a sense of inerrancy or an infallibility, it's not necessarily a mutually exclusive sentiment from my end.

Okay. Let me ask with that, Drew. I know you had something else, because I also had something from earlier. I mean, that was different. I never heard someone saying that, a Mormon saying that Muhammad is inspired.

Yeah, I mean, there's a formal statement from 1978 from the first presidency of the LDS Church specifically naming Muhammad as among the moral exemplars or as an inspired individual alongside Confucius, the various Greek philosophers, and others who have benefited humanity in various ways.

Okay, so what I want to do, and let me just for my audience say that, folks, when you speak to someone of different religious backgrounds, specifically when you're speaking to Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, you need to make sure you define terms.

Okay, because, and that's what I'm going to ask, Jackson, I'm going to ask you, and so I can tell you my question now so you have time to think of a good, you know, to think of the answer. But I want to get your definition on what it means to be inspired, because I think, and what you said leads me to believe you understand that we're using it two different ways.

And so, folks, it's always good, though, to make sure that you are speaking on the same definitional terms. Don't just take the word inspired and suddenly think that Jackson might be meaning what we would mean by it.

And as I said, his own words reveal that he understands the distinction there, which is good. What that says is he's not trying to come in here and be deceptive with using language without providing definition.

He's recognizing differences, which is a good thing. So, because I think, Drew, you're me a thing when he said that. Your eyes went up as well. And so, Jackson, what would be your understanding then of when you're saying Muhammad is inspired, what's your understanding of what that means then?

Yeah, sure. Broadly speaking, I would understand inspiration, specifically divine inspiration, to kind of convey this sense of perhaps teachings, messages, etc., that assist one in drawing closer to the divine, communicate forms of divine truth, and otherwise benefit individuals and perhaps society at large through, I don't know, let's say moral teachings or theological concepts.

So, I think inspiration can be a pretty broad category within specifically the Mormon tradition that can capture both something that might strike closer to a sense of general grace or common grace, I should say, and also perhaps the express words of deity as communicated through particular individuals.

So, folks, and Jackson, part of this show is to always teach apologetics, so we always speak to the audience as well. So, folks, sometimes you may hear someone say that song was inspired. Now, they don't mean it's coming from God.

When we speak of inspired, 2 Timothy 3 .16, we would say all scripture is inspired. The word there that Paul creates, a new Greek word, as far as we could tell, we don't see any evidence that that word was used prior to that, is God breathed.