Licona/Martin Debate

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Election Day, Distraction, and a Different Topic

Hey, good morning. Good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line whatever time it is wherever you are listening. For example Monty in the United Kingdom would be evening. But he's not gonna listen because it's time for dinner and he got married and so, you know.

His stats are start going down and you know channel participant. We've seen this many many times. It's a sad thing to see. But in many ways, it's a good thing. It's actually. Well, thank you very much and then we have.

We have one of our good friends down in Sydney is listening. So we've got a worldwide audience today. And I wonder if it has any connection whatsoever to do with the fact that today is Election Day in the United States.

But you know what? Someone just said this just in Obama won Mexico. In fact, I did see a discussion that in the in Europe, it's 90 to 10 for Obama. So if Europe were to vote for the president, of course they don't know anything about Mitt Romney and and anything else, but I'm not sure if it's really a recommendation for Obama that Greece would.

We want Obama. Yeah, there you go. I'll tell you something. Anyway, it is amazing. How many people? Around the world are absolutely fascinated with the American elections and it is an illustration of How important this nation is in the world scheme of things whether it will be honest with you the outcome of today's election May tell us a lot as to whether that position of importance will last for a longer period of time.

Or a much shorter period of time. That's my opinion of things but be it as it may. Sadly there are many people outside the borders the United States. Significantly more interested in the in the election than people within the borders of the United States.

All you got to do is follow some of these things where people, you know. Walk down the street and you know stick a microphone in somebody's face and start asking them. You know, so what do you think about?

President Obama, you know you support him because he's pro-life. Yeah I love that. Yeah, and and you know Paul Ryan, you think that there was a good pick, you know another black man. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're just like ah Wow so much for the informed electorate concept, which is sort of important, but Not no.

No, I'm sorry today. You cannot use the microphone. No, I just wanted to ask you are not why they always do that Only in New York City, no, they do LA LA in New York City. Well, that's the only place where people are that's the only people only live in those two cities.

That's the that matter. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, every place else is irrelevant. So anyway Obama won Hawaii. Yeah. They even started voting there yet but anyways, but it is Election Day and I don't know about you.

But the vast majority of folks who listen to this program are probably a little bit distracted. Thinking about things. I know as a very soon-to-be grandpa I mean, you know summer is away for over a week comes back.

I'm like, oh Coming quick. Oh, yeah, you know, she's now farther along than Kelly was when she had Josh. So, of course my wife always skipped the last month pregnancies like yeah. Yeah extra weight gain forget it.

Not gonna do that. We're just gonna skip this this thing here. But anyway As a soon-to-be grandfather, I I really think about the fact that there are four Supreme Court justices who could retire over the next four years and I just.

You know, it's very easy for me to be distracted today. So what are we gonna do? We are going to talk about something completely different than the elections. So as to help you at least have a small amount of time today where you turn your mind away from These things possibly maybe even help you to not commit the sin of worry today because for Christians We believe that God is sovereign over all things.

He has a purpose. He is working out his plan in this world we are to look to eternal things to recognize that nations rise and nations fall and that We as finite Temporally bound creatures are in no position to be judging God and judging his purposes.

And therefore as a result, we are going to try to help to Distract you from the distractions by actually talking about something with the eternal relevance and that is once again I have fired up my Awesome audio note-taker program and I was listening.

I forget which day last week. I listened to this while on a ride but I Listened to a very recent and I it really bugs me about this. They refused to call this a debate. It is a dialogue. Oh, please. You've got two people with differing views on one subject.

It's a debate for crying out loud. What do you mean a dialogue? What is it such a there's such a wimpiness in Western culture these days, you know, what we don't want to offend anybody I I was I just about broke the rowing machine.

I was on in Detroit last week. When I look up and on Fox News, they're talking about the fact that there are parents that want to ban Charlie Brown. Because Charlie Brown promotes bullying and I want to go, you know, I was bullied when I was a kid.

There were kids that were bigger. I was not very big when I was in school, especially in the primary grades and I was bullied and I was chased around and Even in high school. I got stuffed in a trash can once so I Didn't enjoy those things, but you know what if you live in a plastic bubble you are not gonna do well in life.

We are just absolutely emasculating Our young men, it's just Grow a backbone. Anyways, I do what that's not what we're talking about today. Sorry that's that's that's a Rabbit trail number one. Anyway, they call it a dialogue and this is a dialogue between Mike Licona Who is back in the debating realm?

But not debating Norm Geisler I probably might wanted that one and a Fellow by name of Dale Martin the Dale Martin is a New Testament scholar from Yale University. And when you hear something like that you automatically go You know someone went to Princeton.

All that means today is 98 chance of being a heretic and Unfortunately, that is the case. Dale Martin is also a homosexual so we have a homosexual New Testament scholar and the subject of the debate an interesting subject is One I've just I've not heard.

You would think this would have come up at some time in the past. Maybe somebody has I've not heard it before. But the subject of the debate was Was Jesus aware of his own deity did Jesus think himself to be God and So I found it primarily interesting in the fact that Dale Martin Will begin this debate.

And I'm gonna call it a debate because that's what it was. Whether they want to call that or not is irrelevant. After I skip past the first couple minutes where he told a joke that I will not repeat on the air.

Because it's inappropriate and blasphemous. Here you have a man who will stand in front of an audience and he will say I Confess the Nicene Creed in church. I am a high church Anglican Episcopalian actually the my my Anglican friends in Sydney will not want to Admit him as being one of theirs, but I'm I'm a high church Episcopalian.

I I confess the Nicene Creed. I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity but I don't believe Jesus thought he was God and He just comes straight out and says I'm a postmodernist. I Don't have to put those things together.

Something can be true and in one aspect and it's totally untrue in another so I can believe in the doctrines of Trinity. I just don't have to believe it has anything to do with the historical Jesus. And so You're just left shaking your head going.

What and yet this is the kind of stuff that's being taught at Yale. It's being taught in all these places where people all there's great scholarship is and I simply say to you if this is the state Of scholarship then we need to come up with another word for a serious study of the Bible.

Because This is just utterly incoherent. Utterly incoherent is what you're going to hear. Now the man's obviously very intelligent but there is a complete disconnection and Yes, I do think it has something to do with the overall worldview issue that would also allow him to be a theologian of the New Testament who is gay and Who is a homosexual.

Sorry, I don't like using that term gay because it's been a not really a descriptive term. Who is a homosexual who knows what the New Testament says about and basically says don't worry about it. And people always ask me why would anybody want to teach the New Testament if you don't actually believe what it says?

Well, there are a lot of people who do that. And you know where that started it started in state-sponsored churches. It started in state-sponsored churches. Where you have the state providing funding for quote-unquote Christian education where you end up with unregenerate people in a Government educational system teaching religion.

Those aren't the people you want teaching those things because they don't believe it anymore. But there's a lot of them out there a lot of them out there. So I thought it'd be good if we listened to what?

Postmodern History and the “Historical Jesus”

Dale Martin had to say comment on some things. But mainly just simply to hear what he has to say and to go. Wow, we have some real challenges out there and how to even interact with things like this. This is what's being taught to our young people.

We need to be aware of it. So I'm gonna skip past Michael Icona's presentation. It was. It was interesting. But once again it we will be commenting once we get to the cross-exam. Well, not really cross-exam but sort of discussion.

Portion that once again as we have frequently criticized both William Lane Craig and Mike Lycona for their evidentialism and for the Non-presuppositional perspective they take and for basically saying well, you know Our authority is the majority of scholars.

Lycona's argument was that it is more probable That Jesus believed in his own deity than not and you know, that's where that's what they're limited to they they don't have the theological foundation to to actually state here is what God has said and They don't believe that's an appropriate approach within quote-unquote scholarship so that's how they have to do things, but anyways, he's already made his presentation as I said Dale Martin started off with a a Joke, which I will not repeat on the air and then we pick it up at at that point so let's listen to what Dale Martin had to say a bit about myself.

I.

Grew up in a very fundamentalist church in Texas, but I am now an Episcopalian. An Anglican and a very high Anglo Catholic liturgical church in New Haven. Socially progressive on social issues. But very traditional turgically I get up every Sunday and say the Nicene Creed.

When we have morning prayer I say the Apostles Creed and We sometimes we even say other creeds and confessions all of which of course Insists that Jesus is divine. I Believe in the Trinity. I'm perfectly willing to confess that.

So as a Christian I believe that in in Jesus in those ways. I think it's entirely different question to say as a historian. As a practicing historian What can I say about what Jesus thought about himself during his own lifetime now?

We have again to bring you up to speed here you may recall as we have reviewed debates between Mike Laicona and Bart Ehrman willing Craig and Bart Ehrman this issue has come up over and over again and I would I would identify it as epistemological schizophrenia.

I am a Christian But I do my history as a non-christian. I do not believe that's a possibility and It will and it results in epistemological schizophrenia. The assumption is that history is an objective science That has no starting point and can have Objective discernible meaning outside of a An epistemology that deals whether God exists or not.

The result when you accept that definition of history is Seen in Bart Ehrman and will be seen in Dale Martin as well. You have to begin with the assumption of no inspiration. There's no purpose in history.

You cannot make connections between events in history There and in essence there can be no evidence of The existence of God or the activities of God in history at all. Everything's random. You have to be a naturalistic materialist in your analysis of the causes and meanings of things and so you you basically have to do history as a secular humanist and As a Christian or a Jew or I'd have to throw in here as a Muslim Because I think most Muslims would agree that the Quran would not present this perspective either the the Quran Drawing from its previous Sources in the sense of Judaism and Christianity Saying that there's a continuation that we worship the same God etc. Etc Would likewise say that God has been active in this world.

There is such thing as fulfilled prophecy and Therefore you cannot be a consistent theist monotheist and Yet be an atheist historian. God has a purpose in this world. He's working that purpose out. Now that does not mean that to be a Christian historian means that you sit there and you go Oh, I know why this happened because God wanted to do this.

We can't always know that but the point is that a a Christian historian is Going to allow for a much broader spectrum of input into purpose meaning origin and source than the atheist historian is going to and that's gonna come up here because What you're gonna get very clearly from Dale Martin is You cannot look at these texts That have been presented by Mike Lycona.

For example, he emphasized properly and I thought fairly well the Son of Man Christology that spans the synoptic Gospels and knowing this fellow he He Recognized that he would have to focus primarily upon the synoptics or he'd have to spend most of his time Attempting to develop some kind of a historical defense for the Gospel of John.

So you just you basically the the the theory in the William Lane Craig Mike Lycona realm of apologetics here is Take the path of least resistance so you don't defend inerrancy you don't defend these things that you're given give the opponent the the smallest target to try to hit and That's you're gonna do better.

That way is we've all heard that we've heard it many many times. So he developed I thought pretty well the Son of Man Christology especially, you know demonstrating this. Evidently, maybe I've not read his materials, but evidently in some of Dale Martin's materials He actually denies that Jesus identifies himself as the Son of Man.

Bart Ehrman does that. You might go what? But yeah, they they say that he's referring to a an eschatological figure who's other than himself and So he you know, he pretty much demonstrates Jesus clearly does use the Son of Man terminology of himself.

Then he makes the application in in Mark 14 where he does this before the Jewish leaders and their responses as his blasphemy and which obviously wouldn't make any sense if Jesus wasn't identifying himself as the Son of Man and You know goes from there and all Dale Martin has to say to all that is.

Yeah, but then you've got these over here where you've got subordination and what you cannot do is assume or even attempt To see any level of harmonization between this. Jesus can't be big enough. For that much to be said about him he has to be much more One-dimensional and so if there are subordinationist texts, then that's it.

You just you just choose those. Or you just simply say well, it's just a bunch of a bunch of contradiction. You cannot allow for harmonization. That is the fundamental assumption that you're gonna hear in the argumentation once we get to it.

But first and foremost, we're listening to a man who says see I get up and I say the Nicene Creed at church. But I don't think Jesus life is God. And I just say to my my Muslim friends. Listen to this when you when you quote these people say well Christian scholar this said that and Christian scholar this said that.

Find out if it's this kind of quote-unquote Christian scholar because to be consistent. What would you think of a Muslim? Who says? Oh, I I I say the I say the five daily prayers in Arabic. I I go to the mosque and I say the prayers, but I don't think Mohammed actually existed.

He didn't really teach this stuff. And you'd go then why are you saying the prayers. Let's get it makes me feel good. It's my tradition. It's this way I was raised. I Mean, it's just. It's just all you know it's all I know and most of us in this audience anyways.

Would say be honest and stop pretending. But for many people it's like no no no no no no no. Religion is something makes you feel good and warm and something you know go ahead and do that and that's that's fine.

Doesn't really matter if you really actually believe it's true. Or be a good post-modernist. It's it's religiously true to me. But it's not really true historically.

That's where these guys are coming from. That also means that. And and let me say also that well last night we were talking about Resurrection and that sort of issue. I think that it's that's much clearer issue that historians can come down on.

I think did Jesus think he was divine is a much more difficult question for his store even Non-christian historians to come to a decision about. So it's a muddy thing. But I also need to make the point that History is not the same thing as the past.

It's also not the same thing as Jesus as he really was. History in my view is not the past or what happened. History is an account of the past that's constructed by modern professional historians using the regular tools of modern professional historiography.

And I teach in my historical Jesus class that there are in my mind anyway at least three Jesus's. And you'll see why. I'm a post-modernist and there's one some ways that I don't think I could be a Christian if I weren't a Post-modernist because I need to be able to talk this way about reality and knowledge now.

That's very important to understand.

Because it completely redefines Christianity post-modernism is anti-christian Post-modernism is a fundamental denial of the biblical worldview a biblical epistemology The centrality of Christ is Lord over all things etc, etc.

And so what he's saying is I couldn't be the kind of Christian. I claim that I am without being able to compartmentalize these aspects of my life and So I've got I'm an atheist historian over here. I'm a homosexual over here.

But then I go to church and I say and do things that historically were completely contradictory to everything else I do in my life. But since I don't think that what I do over there has any impact of what I do over here and what I do over There then I can get away with it.

So it is a it is a self-imposed epistemological philosophical Schizophrenia in worldview. It's a fracturing Rather than what you have in Scripture a whole worldview where What is true is true and you make application across the entire range of human knowledge Here you can't do that Can't do that.

So that's why it doesn't have any problem fracturing the text of the Bible and cutting up into pieces and and feels no compulsion whatsoever to Put these things together and to be consistent doesn't have any any Way at all To even to even understand these things.

It is truly amazing. The real Jesus is not the same thing as the historical Jesus. The real Jesus is also not the same thing as the Jesus who existed in the past. The real Jesus in my view as a Christian is the second person of the Trinity 100 human 100 divine.

The Jesus we worship in church.

Even if that real Jesus Did not exist historically even if there is a complete disconnection Between the Jesus of history and the real Jesus of my. Well, I hesitate to even use the word worship here because this isn't this isn't even a meaningful definition of worship.

Because Pagans worship that which they do not know. So if there is a difference between what we claim to know and the historical reality of that person Jesus Then that's not really even true worship so but that's the mindset.

And you say How can anyone maintain something like this? Well, you're listening to it and this is what's out there. This is this is a standard kind of stuff that's there and this is what is seen as the this is the scholarship that the world trumpets.

These the people that the world looks to as great Christian scholars. And they look at us and go you're nothing if you do not speak like these people.

Amazing. That's the real Jesus. For me the ultimate Jesus sounds like a rock band or something. Then there's the historical Jesus, which is that Jesus that human that's professional historians construct notice.

I didn't say reconstruct. It's not like the Titanic. If the Titanic we could get all the pieces of the Titanic off the ocean. Haul them to land and put those actual physical pieces back together and then we've reconstructed the Titanic.

That's not what historians do. Historians have never reconstructed anything in their lives. They construct it and they construct it using whatever evidence they can find for historiography. That's the historical Jesus.

It's a construction of modern historians. It's not the same thing as the real Jesus. But it's also not the same thing as the Jesus existed in the past. That Jesus is a human Jesus who's used in the past is completely all lost to us as all the past is lost to us.

The past does not exist anywhere.

So Here you have the foundation for the the kind of radical skepticism that you see in a Bart Ehrman where you you turn history into a mere theoretical Construction or reconstruction of Past events, but the past is gone.

We really can't know anything about it we can we can only make guesses we can't really say anything more than that and You wonder why so many people today have so little connection to the past. Well, you know, I especially find this and I keep bringing this up and I apologize I'm sorry.

But it just the older I get the more it strikes me that the next generation Sees no connection between themselves and those who've gone before them, you know. Maybe a slight connection to their parents, but only in the sense of having similar likes or dislikes but the idea of really recognizing the people who've come before them and seeing a connection and Honoring the the memory of those people and being fascinated with history and and the you know, I was I was raised going to My mom would take me out of school call in sick and we'd drive the half hour or 45 minutes to Gettysburg and we'd walk the battlefield at Gettysburg and go into the the diorama there where they they had the the huge painting of the of The battle and pickets charge and all that stuff and man.

I felt a connection. I Was only given half the story, but I felt I felt connection to To what had happened in those places and it was real to me and yet sadly you can ask so many in the modern young generation and they just they don't see why they're their lives would be enriched if they saw themselves standing in a long line of people who had held to the same kinds of Convictions and beliefs and values it's all up in the air now.

It's all up to you make it up as you go along. It becomes a plastic Cheap Easily replaced world in that in that way of thinking it really does.

The Guild, the Academy, and Competing Jesus Reconstructions

Okay, it's the second time I chased a rabbit. Sorry, so we can't take our constructions to the past Event. Hold them next to it and say does it meet? What what counts as a historical construction of Jesus is what professional historians will accept as a likely historical construction of Jesus.

Now to catch that what professional historians will accept so in other words the guild the Academy. We get to decide now the fact that the fact they keep changing their opinions over time. That's okay.

Because we're post-modernist there is an objective truth anyways. So. You know. How can that be boy. LaShawn just now said you're doing a DL today, right? I think she forgot the time change. Somebody needs to let LaShawn know on Twitter that actually we are already we've been at it for 29 minutes and she's late so anyways.

The guild the Academy. The standard but it's not an objective standard. It's all as a changing standard and they're fine with that. They're fine with that. And once you accept that then changing values ethics morals everything it.

It's all part of the same the same issue so I.

Think no responsible non-apologetic Christian historian Would claim that Jesus thought of himself as divine and anything like the Christian sense that is the second person of the Trinity fully and fully equal to Yahweh as you put it Fully divine as God the Father in any any way equal to God the Father as One person of the Trinity as the second person of the Trinity in which the Holy Spirit is the third person as not created But generated by God, etc.

All those creed old statements, which I believe are true credoly. I don't think any responsible historian would say Jesus the historical Jesus considered himself any of those things. Now catch this so creedal truth is.

One thing historical truth is another thing and even though the creed claims to be historical it's not but it's still true. That's absurd, of course, but that's post-modernism because post-modernism is absurdity.

It is epistemological suicide. I Just saw a cop in a chair. Did you see a comment in channel? This guy clearly voted Democrat in 2008. I'm sorry, I just really Struck me as funny, especially given some of the other background that everybody else doesn't know but anyways so you can have creedal truth and historical truth and They can be completely contradictory, but they're still both true in their realms but then notice the other thing is not subtle and it's gonna be repeated so many times you actually get tired of it after a while and as but no responsible Responsible professional historian would disagree with me.

Now you hear this from Bart Ehrman now you're healing hearing it from Dale Martin. So if you disagree with me, you're not you're not a responsible historian. So it's it's winning by definition. It's it's argument by definition rather than by Interaction on a meaningful level and I just find it it well on any Logical or scholarly level it's offensive and it's reprehensible, but it is just.

Exactly how people work. If the historical Jesus considered himself divine in any possible sense It would not have been in the Orthodox Christian sense. That's my first point.

So orthodox Christianity is historically false. Here's what he's saying, but I embrace it and practice it in my. In another part of me this other part of me does this stuff?

That's that's what you've got. But could the historical Jesus have considered himself divine in some kind of sense. Since there were many people who did claim divine status for themselves or other human beings.

They knew it's not as unlikely as some Apologists have claimed as some people have said that you know. If Jesus didn't actually claim to be divine then he was a liar or he was a lunatic if he's a human being.

Who did this. Gee if Jesus. I Think for example Alexander the Great really believed himself to be divine in his lifetime. I Think it's quite possible that some of the Roman Emperors thought that they were divine also in some sense and and a fairly high sense.

Now what would be the huge major difference here. Jesus was a Monotheist and in fact, he would have to I am sure he would agree that Jesus was a Second Temple Jews part of Second Temple Judaism. He was a Jew of that of that period.

And hence was a a pure monotheist in all ways right. So There's not even a parallel and yet you will hear this over and oh well Alexander the Great. Well some of the Roman they were not monotheists. They believed that gods came down and had sex with women and created demigods and that it happened many times before.

And What happened again the future and because they were given this great power and authority? Well must have happened with me. But there is a fundamental Roadblock in making that assertion of Jesus the parallel doesn't exist in worldview.

But they just sort of skip over that little part.

There may have been religious figures who claimed some kind of divine status for themselves. But do we have evidence that Jesus looked like these kinds of figures. And I don't think so first. I Think it is unlikely.

Simply on the from the beginning in the first place that Jesus thought he was divine for the following reasons. I assume that whatever Jesus was he was a pious Jew. Uneducated for the most part and at home in rural and village settings.

Now what you got here again, this is. This is why I ended up at Fuller seminary. Really is I mean, I didn't know at the time. I mean, you know I look back now and I see more and more the hand of God keeping me right here.

Forcing me to take those classes to study under those professors read those books as unpleasant as it was at a time. As how completely different it was in my thinking at the time now, I know why because I understand this I understand this type of presentation and theological liberalism and How it manifests itself and everything else and what you've got and these folks don't even realize it.

But what you've got is You've got people coming up with a particular. This is my my Jesus. Looks like this remember my debate with John Dominic crossing this came out in that situation. He I Remember reading the quotation I forget who it was that said it it may have been crossing himself I'm not sure or it may have been said about crossing.

I'd have to go back and listen. It's been what seven seven years now coming up on eight the problem with The modern search for the historical Jesus is that when these folks stare down into the well They end up seeing and a mirror image of themselves staring back at them.

In other words, they form Jesus in their own image and likeness and so crossing comes up with a Jesus who represents his worldview and is a apocalyptic Jewish prophet and and is opposing imperialism and and You know all this kind of stuff and All of these guys end up picking and choosing from the data what they think fits the Jesus that they want to have.

Well here you've got Dale Martin and Dale Martin is just honestly telling us I think Jesus was like this and therefore that's the information that I will accept. That's that's just it and Any information that goes beyond the image of Jesus that I want to have I don't have to accept it because as a post-modernist I I'm making this stuff up to go along anyways, but you know, that's just the way it is and So I think Jesus was an uneducated Jew I couldn't read.

Because well most Jews back then couldn't well, how do you know that I mean of all the people Mother commands was to write these things. They were people of those scriptures. They they they established synagogue schools and Yet the assumption is yeah, I believe they couldn't read and So Jesus couldn't read he was just some some, you know guy that did some preaching and then some people took his preaching and expanded it all out and and.

And yet I'm a Trinitarian. No, you're not Matt may I say something especially to my Muslim friends. This man is not a Trinitarian. I mean I There's no more meaningful way of describing this man as a Trinitarian.

Then if you were to describe as a Muslim someone who denies that Muhammad existed and the Quran is the Word of God now there may be some post modernists out there who call themselves Muslims and Say the prayers.

But don't believe that the Quran is the Word of God or that Muhammad existed or that there is ever The Hishra never happened and and etc, etc, right it makes no sense. It's absurd and the same way I say to you it is absurd for a person to claim to be a Christian to claim to be a Trinitarian who speaks in this way and Yet so often I find especially my Muslim friends quoting these people say well They're Trinitarians and holding me accountable for what they say.

Without looking at the worldview that they're actually bearing. I think worldview issues are extremely important.

Son of Man, Son of God, and the Synoptic Gospels

He was a Jewish peasant from Galilee. He may have seen himself as a prophet. If Jesus thought of himself as a Messiah in his present state That is not that he would become a Messiah later. But that he already was right then while he's walking around the Sea of Galilee divine that could have entailed some kind of divinity.

Can't. Contrary to what some common opinion even among many scholars. We do have Jewish texts from before and around Jesus time that depict the Jewish King or a son of man or a Messiah figure as a son of God as even begotten of God and even addressed as God.

So we have Jewish texts not a lot that you talk about both the Son of God Begotten of God God and they use this for a Jewish King a son of man or a Messiah figure. All those things you find now not notice.

This is not on any package. Some texts have some of these things together other texts have some of the others together. But it's at least possible. Certain Psalms later Greek translations of those Psalms and a text or two from the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Second Temple Jewish literature.

Rarely. But do indeed depict a divine Messiah though one certainly subordinate to God himself. And I'm taking a lot of this. I'm talking about Messiah figures and their divine status from a fairly recent book from 2008 by my Yale Colleagues Adela Yarbrough Collins and John Collins.

It's called King and Messiah as Son of God divine human and angelic Messianic figures in biblical and related literature I think it's the most thorough Examination to date of all the different possibilities that there are in Second Temple Jewish literature of this period.

It used to be said by people that calling someone a Messiah didn't make him divine. And for the most parts That's true. You can have a Messiah that doesn't have divine status. Most Messiahs I think in the ancient world were not thought by other Jews to have divine status, but we have a few texts that do.