September 14, 2020 Show with Gordan Runyan on “On This Ancient Battleground: Winning the War Between Tyranny & Christian Faith”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

14th day of September 2020.

I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today.

His name is Pastor Gordon Runyon.

He's the pastor of Emanuel Baptist Church of Tucumcari, New Mexico.

We're going to be addressing his most recent book on this ancient battleground,

winning the war between tyranny and Christian faith.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Gordon Runyon.

Hey, thanks, Chris.

It's really good to be here.

Glad the Lord has made a way for us.

Amen.

Well, since you're a first -time guest, as our tradition goes, we

always have our first -time guests when they're Christians, of course, which would make up about 99

.99 of our guests.

We have them give their testimonies of how they were saved, what kind of religious atmosphere they were

raised in, and what providential circumstances the Lord used to raise them

up in the faith, to draw them to himself and save them.

But before we do that, why don't you tell our listeners something about Emanuel Baptist Church of Tucumcari, New Mexico?

Yeah, it's Tucumcari, and I don't expect you to know that.

It's a small town on I -40, roughly halfway between Albuquerque

and Emanuel Baptist Church

congregation.

I began preaching there about 11 years ago.

Now it's a congregation.

Churches with turmoil?

I've never even heard of such a thing.

Super unusual.

Right.

I had a friend who said that he thought it might be a good idea to create a...

He would have, like, bottles.

So we did have some turmoil.

It was a run -of -the -mill kind of country.

Instead of the deacon board confession,

he kind of...

I'm sure he was doing the...

So we did have that kind of turmoil, but

now we try to

keep our

eyes

open and

opportunities.

We're trying to get some things

done and what God has done.

Well, the Emanuel Baptist Church of Tucumcari, New Mexico, does not

yet have a website.

They're working on that.

So if anybody wants more information, you can contact the church at

reformnm at yahoo .com.

That's reform, no ed at the end, reformnm, for New Mexico, at

yahoo .com.

Okay, well, tell us about...

Something about the home you were raised in, what kind of religious atmosphere existed, if any,

and what providential circumstances our Lord used in His sovereignty to draw you to Himself and save you.

Amen.

This is the part of the interview I've been looking forward to.

Seriously, I'm so thankful for the...

My dad would say

grace over the

USA

denomination, by my

estimation.

Back then, even back in

the state, they

were eager to

welcome

me.

I grew up, believed God, and everything was good.

Nobody else around.

It was a pretty dead place.

And it really

began to nag at me.

And you might find it interesting.

Nag at me was the old doxology.

Oh, yeah. You mean, praise God from whom all blessings flow.

Praise thee all creatures here below.

I don't think anybody wants to hear me continue singing.

Although the doxology itself is beautiful.

Exactly. I was hoping I could get you to sing it.

That's one bomb.

So there I was, this young kid of about 20.

At some point, it began to occur.

It really began

to occur to me of

praise and glory to God.

Not thinking about it very much.

I knew of that kind of praise from

when he...

And so I

found myself

in a way.

Wife and I, eventually, we got transferred to Idaho.

Yeah, they stationed Navy people in Idaho back then.

So we were in our new house.

And the furniture wasn't set up.

And we had an inflatable mattress set up on the bedroom.

It must have been that I

was watching an evangelist on there.

It wasn't Pat Ryan.

I would have recognized him.

But it was some other guy that I didn't know.

And his message, I don't remember it exactly.

But be the man that God's

called you to be.

And I just knew

that he

gave a...

He gave a sinner's...

He gave a sinner's prayer and went to him.

Because there were no...

I had to ask my wife, do we even own a Bible?

And to dig it out of

the box to work.

It was an hour and a half both ways.

But it turned out to be a blessing from God.

Because I

knew that

Jesus...

I just noticed at one point that without being told that I must repent.

I could look back on the man that I used to be.

Anything to do with him.

But he came to me in that moment.

And he really made me a new creature.

Puppy dog.

He

was

getting into

something in

1989.

My love for it has increased.

Of that kind of praise of the whole...

Gratitude and the whole thing.

So how did you come to discover and embrace the Reformed faith?

Oh, there's a man you might have heard of named Dr. Gary

North.

Yes, of course.

He wrote a little book called 75 Bible Questions That Your Instructors Pray You Won't Ask.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a Gary North title.

It absolutely is.

The first 25

questions,

if I

remember right,

are all

about

Calvinism

and

bibliography.

For these ideas more.

I'm going to announce our email address in the event that anybody listening wants to

email their own question.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Well, what compelled you to write the book on this ancient battleground, winning the

war between tyranny and Christian faith?

That's a great question.

I am

writing a...

We paid anything, but it was spread the word.

The thought

was at the

time, evangelical...

I knew I didn't want to do that.

Write instead about things...

Use that opportunity to introduce run -of -the -mill sort of evangelical belief.

And that...

Evangelical is...

Should we do when those governments...

The Bible really does...

We...

After I've been over a

year, they bite

-sized the piece.

You can

gather

these articles.

I'll read them by the topic.

My intention is that if you know somebody who needs to be introduced or challenged, in those

areas, it's not a book that you can give it

out like popcorn.

The same.

I wanted to keep by this

and...

Great.

Well, I hope that the Lord draws more attention to your book by...

As a result of our discussion today.

And if you could also define tyranny,

obviously, there have been throughout history, governments and

individuals who are tyrants or tyrannical.

And their barbarism is sometimes

too disturbing to even describe.

And then, of course, there are lesser forms of tyranny that are the...

The genesis of what may become something that hideous down the road,

but...

Terrifying than that which we know of, which occurred in the days of Nero,

for instance, or...

Or other tyrants like Adolf Hitler, for a more modern example.

But describe or define tyranny.

Okay.

Well, I'm not a very original

tyranny.

You mentioned one.

You use the word

when you look up

to...

So that's the thing that is maybe a little bit surprisingly

include the idea of arbitrariness or randomness in the use of power.

The thing that makes a tyrant super scary is kind of that you're not always sure what...

There's an element

of Dr. Greg Bronson.

You're either going to govern yourself by the law of God.

He used to...

Of course, he used the word theonomy for the law of God and autonomy.

You find a rule...

The use

of the law of

God and God's power

begins

to depend

often...

Anti -God, anti...

Now, this issue or the issue specifically of

obeying earthly governments that providentially for

better or for worse have been placed in authority over you, no matter

who you are or where you live.

This subject has come up a lot on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio and even from

differing viewpoints.

Sure.

In fact, even from it appears to be at times polar opposite viewpoints.

Because of this whole coronavirus thing...

Oh, yeah.

There are those that have refused to close their churches

ever, who from the get -go always remained open, never

submitted to their local governing authorities the insistence of their local governing

authorities to shut down public services and to exclusively use

live streaming and other methods.

And there are those who not only immediately shut

down their services and either used live streaming or didn't do anything really

in the way of public evangelism.

And not only that, some of those have been and continue to be

very forcefully at times.

And of course, this is a mixed bag of people.

Not all are like this, but some have been forcefully and vociferously

condemning those that disobeyed their local government

and remained open.

And I include in those who have been

seeking to obey their local governments in this area, I include among them even very conservative and

reformed Christian churches.

Absolutely.

So you have people on both sides of this issue who may

be...

You may have pastors that have even shared the podium at Bible conferences because they believe

so identically in most other things.

And you have people who read the same books and have the same heroes, have the same confessions

of faith, they're on the same denomination.

And you might even have differences of opinion in the same congregation over these things.

So tell us about your

belief that it is a Christian duty to oppose tyranny in government, in authority,

when the Bible does command us to submit

to governing authorities, even those that are evil.

Sure, sure.

Well, that's a good one.

You've definitely got to hash out because those passages do

seem at

least a little bit.

Because I know that when I say it's right to resist wicked rulers

and a believer to do so, I know that people may

hear something that I'm not saying.

One of the things I'm not saying, I'm not...

When

I talk

about

resistance, I'm generally talking about things like

disobedience even, and things as simple as, you

know, we should

pull people down and

advocating a generally rebellious or disobedient spirit.

I do believe that we should desire to...

It should be our default setting.

I think we should be...

A lot of garbage, frankly, that I think is

contradictory to the ideas you may

have heard

of called the Vindice Contra Tyrannos.

I can't tell you who actually wrote it.

But one of the things...

In fact, before you go to those doctrines, just remember, that's where we left off because we have to go to our first break.

Sure.

And if anybody wants to join us, as I said, we already do have listeners waiting.

I hope they're waiting patiently, but we have listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But if anybody wants to join them and get in line, our email address is

chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal

and private matter.

Don't go away, God willing.

We're going to be right back after these messages with more of our guest, Pastor Gordon Runyon,

and our discussion on winning the war between tyranny and Christian faith.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Here's what Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Shop and Zion Radio recently.

Good to be back.

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You, I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more

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Wow, that's some compliment.

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You don't have to owe me anything.

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Where we left off, Gordon Runyon, you were discussing two doctrines that have

led you to the position that you hold about opposing tyranny.

Yeah, they sure do help us get there, at least.

J .C. Wright, in the late 1800s, the

document was called Private Judgment.

I was talking about the three doctrines

that I think are...

One of those doctrines

was gigantic, if we don't understand that the...

No

anchor

in the...

It's the sole infallible and inerrant authority for the church.

Absolutely.

In every area of faith and practices,

that would include the area of how we define the governor.

The other thing that I like, I

merely believe in the Bible alone,

but we're not red -letter Christian believers,

but we believe that all the Bible, all scripture is inspired by God.

Combine that doctrine of sola scriptura with one that by and

duty of pride,

we

believe that nobody's

going to

act by saying,

well, no, you're going to be...

You're going to have to...

You've also

given each individual a conscience.

I don't believe the conscience is perfect.

I believe the conscience...

But each individual has a

conscience.

You're...

You think on some level might be wrong.

It probably is.

And so you're...

Demonetize your estimation.

The big deal, the Judgment Day, is

individual

visits

to

test

all

that

they

do.

And God

didn't

get a

pass.

Abigail, the wife of Naboth...

So once we get sola scriptura, tota scriptura...

Great.

Well, I'm going to read a question and I'm going to have you answer it when we return from our

midway break.

Timothy in Fremont, California, which he called commie -fornia.

Timothy says, greetings.

If this question relates to the topic, please ask your guest, what about those never -Trumper

Christians not voting for the lesser of two evils?

Seems to me there's only two legitimate choices.

Obviously, capitalism, law and order, trumps Marxism, pun intended.

And so we're going to have you answer that when we come back from the break because there is a difference of opinion amongst many

Christians on whether some Christians even think it's a sin not to vote

because you are not being a good steward of the nation where you have been placed by God's providence.

And other Christians believe it is perfectly legitimate for Christians to exercise

their liberty not to vote if they believe both candidates are evil or not worthy of the

office, etc.

But if anybody else wants to join us, we do have a lot of people waiting, but you could join us too at chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with more on tyranny.

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That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people

who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

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We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385

-8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

As host of Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs,

baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy,

and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at

gcbcmj .squarespace .com.

That's gcbcmj .squarespace .com or

call them at 908 -996 -7654.

That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm author Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

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Welcome back, and before we return to our discussion with Pastor Gordon

Runyon of Emanuel Baptist Church in Tucumcari, New Mexico, on his

book, On This Ancient Battleground, Winning the War Between Tyranny and Christian Faith.

Before we return to that discussion, we just have some important announcements to make.

Tomorrow, God willing, on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we have one of my favorite returning

guests, Dr. Tony Costa, who is Professor of Apologetics and Islam

at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada.

He's going to be discussing with me why Islam cannot bear criticism.

Why Islam cannot bear criticism.

I'm sure that's going to be a fascinating discussion, as all my discussions are with Dr. Tony Costa, who is

truly a brilliant brother in Christ.

We have also, for two days in a row, following that, on Wednesday the 16th and

Thursday the 17th, we have Jeff Thomas.

Anybody who loves The Banner of Truth and has frequently attended

their Bible conferences and has perused their online catalog,

they know the name Jeff Thomas.

He is one of their favorite speakers at their public events.

He's one of my favorite guests, pastor of Alfred Place Baptist Church

in Aberystwyth, Wales, for half a century.

Not many men who pastor one church for over 50 years in

existence, and Jeff Thomas is one of those rare and unique individuals.

And I'm just really excited about his two days with us

on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

And the themes that he will be discussing are the Holy Spirit

is God, and on day number two, asking for the Holy Spirit.

That's this coming Thursday and Friday, the 16th and 17th of

September.

And every other day, Monday through Friday, for weeks to come, our show

is always got fascinating guests and topics as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, one guest who's a first -time guest that may fascinate you, the MyPillow guy,

Mike Lindell, is going to be discussing his book, What Are the Odds?

From Crack Addict to CEO.

If you have seen those MyPillow ads, you might never know Mike Lindell, before coming to

Christ, was a crack addict and infinitely more important than becoming the

CEO of a very lucrative business like MyPillow.

He has been serving Christ in ways that may have even

detrimentally affected his business because he is certainly making it known publicly

where he stands for the life of the unborn and for Jesus Christ.

And of course, leftists who love pillows and love sleeping

well at night may totally ignore his business because of that.

But I'm looking forward to having Mike Lindell for the first time on the show Monday, the 21st

of September.

But folks, if you love Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,

I'm urging you, please go to IronSherpaandZionRadio .com, click support, then click to

donate now.

You could donate instantly in that fashion with a debit or credit card.

You could also, if you prefer snail mail, there will be an address that appears on the screen when you

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So just send us a check made payable to

IronSherpaandZionRadio .com to that address if you prefer snail mail.

You can also advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something compatible with what I believe.

Please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I want to advertise or just put advertising

in the subject line and hopefully we'll be able to launch an ad campaign with you very quickly because we are in urgent need

of your advertising dollars as well.

We have been hit very hard financially because of this coronavirus

pandemic.

Our two largest financial supporters unfortunately have put on hiatus

any further financial support of this program and it has hit us really hard.

They have to have, they had to do that because their businesses, their own businesses were hit very hard by

the hysteria connected with the coronavirus pandemic.

So please help us make up for that huge loss in income by

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Irontreppanzionradio .com click support then click click to donate now.

Also folks, if you are not a member of a bible -believing church

and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, please rectify that situation.

That is, you're disobeying God if you don't look for a church

which to join yourself to and to submit yourself to the

local elders of that church.

That is a command of scripture.

So please allow me, if I can, God willing, allow me to

help you in your search by sending me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com but I need a church and subject

line.

I have I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world

and I can help you find a church, God willing, as well.

So send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com but I need a church in the subject line.

And that's also the email address where you could send in your question to Pastor Gordon Runyon.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We are discussing his book On This Ancient Battleground Winning the War

Between Tyranny and Christian Faith.

So please send us your question to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I will reread the question that we received from Timothy

in Fremont, California.

And let me find that question.

Here it is.

Let's see.

What about those never -Trump -er Christians not voting for the lesser of two evils?

Seems to me there's only two legitimate choices.

Obviously, capitalism, law and order, Trump's Marxism.

Let's see.

I got to reread that.

Obviously, capitalism, law and order, Trump's Marxism.

He's using a pun there.

And as I said before, Christians are divided over the issue

of voting for who they believe are the lesser of two evils.

Obviously, there are many Christians who believe that Trump has been an excellent president

and will continue to be an excellent president.

Others are disappointed with him in many areas and are

fearful of his character.

They...

And in 2016, I know a number of theologically solid

Christians that chose not to vote.

They certainly didn't want to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016, but they could not bring themselves to

vote for Donald Trump either.

Some of those very people, though, have a different story to tell in

regard to the next election.

They have said that 2020 is not 2016.

And the peril that awaits us if Biden gets into the office because of

the Marxist behind him, who will really be running the show and

he will be serving as a puppet leader.

They have been committed now to vote for President Trump and

hopefully see him reelected.

So tell us your opinion about never Trumpers and those that

refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils or those that condone.

And advocate voting for the lesser of two evils.

Well, that's not a landmine question at all, brother.

Well, you write a book like the one that you wrote.

You should be expecting things like that.

There you go.

That's right.

I brought it on myself.

Well, I feel for Timothy there.

In the People's Republic of.

We

all

want from our government

a lot of what

we're

talking about

in

this

question

21 left out of all the people, able men who

fear God, men of truth, those who hate them.

And that's not the only place.

There are several places that encourage

my actions.

So I'm not, I'm also not going to berate my fellow believers who are

going to vote

for him.

Frankly, terrified of

I think the Bible calls it, which if you're

voting out of fear, I

believe

we should have our

future.

Well, two categories of people you didn't mention are what about

those people that are, and I

know some that are theologically actually conservative,

but they vote very often, if not always liberally

because they think the Democratic Party most reflects the compassion of Jesus

for the poor, the downtrodden, the underdog, etc.

The persecuted, and they will typically use the

excuse of, well, I feel

my conscience is untroubled voting for a pro -abortionist because

Republicans never really do anything about it anyway.

They give lip service to the pro -life movement.

And then of course, you have professing Christians, and I have a hard time believing that they're regenerate no matter

what their profession is, who are just as excited about preserving a woman's so -called

right to murder her baby and her womb as the candidates

who are advocating that themselves.

Even the pastor who was one of those who preached at John Lewis's, Congressman John

Lewis's funeral, has come out with a, what he calls a Christian defense for abortion.

And I think that that is absolutely satanic and grotesque.

So what about those categories of people, those that are pro -life, but they say,

hey, I still believe that Democrats lead the way in caring

for the helpless.

And of course, they don't include in that the unborn, but including the poor and the

downtrodden and the underdog.

So that's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to vote for the Democrat because Republicans just give

lip service to pro -life.

And then of course, the other category of Christian or professing Christian

Democrats who are actually in their own philosophy

and worldview, they are actually pro -abortion.

Sure, I will address that by

the word of God, the law of

God, where the people, the conservative Christians who are going to vote liberal because

it's more, they've missed it, is that the Bible in strictly holds the

King not going beyond the

commandment to the left.

He's not allowed to be more cruel.

He's not about allowed to be more lenient and he's not allowed to make up.

I think Romans 13 then confirms this when we find out there that the magistrate, what we'll call

the magistrate, the magistrate has been given a very narrow mission, reward

the ones that do good.

That's the job.

And when the King was to be seated on his throne, he wasn't allowed to make it up as he goes.

He's supposed to as God wrote it.

And in that law, God does not give the King or the mandate to

gather up, pack a

new

justice, and feed the naked and or

feed the hungry and close the naked, protect the widows.

And that's not the thing

you are when you encounter them.

You are supposed to be generous.

You're supposed to take care of the orphan and you're potting off your...

And frankly, the only way that any government has a cash fund

in order to help anybody is they first through unjust means,

specifically by violating the Eighth Commandment, which says, thou shalt not steal.

I do believe taxation is theft.

I believe the

Bible doesn't wear

a badge or you've got a title or even

one of those is.

If he does that, I'm able to find out

what

he should put up,

patiently

start

to

have

to at the

very end of

God's book.

Well, thank you, Timothy, in Fremont, California.

And please give us your full mailing address there so that CVBBS, that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service, can ship you out a free copy of Pastor Gordon Runyon's book

on this ancient battleground winning the war between tyranny and Christian faith.

And we thank Pastor Gordon for providing us with these giveaway copies.

We have Laszlo in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Let's see.

I just had Laszlo's question in front of me and it disappeared.

Oh, no.

I don't know why these things happen.

I'm very challenged when it comes to technology.

Here it is.

Were the 13 British North American colonies biblically justified in rebelling against the rule of the

British crown and parliament in 1776?

Why or why not?

And I have a follow -up question after that.

Okay.

Yeah, my view is.

That the colonies were justified.

They didn't pick up on West

Union or

a government of...

We use that term and when it has been historically used.

Regarding this war in the 18th century, you're saying it's a misnomer.

We're not correctly describing or labeling this war.

Yeah, I think it's just kind of a little bit of a sloppy use of terminology.

I'm not really upset about it.

But technically, I think West Union was right about that.

We really didn't fight a revolution.

We fought a war.

We weren't trying to assess

what was already in place.

Frankly, we just wanted to

declare

their political freedom.

And they knew that that might result.

It's the king who then, in response to the colonies getting a little up, the king

then sent the British fleet to float into the harbor at Boston with

all their guns.

Warned the colonists that bad things

would point out.

Again, if we had a whole bunch of time, the idea of secession can

rebellious

fight.

And his second question, that is Laszlo from Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

His second question is, conversely, was Canada, another British North American colony,

biblically right not to rebel against the same crown and the same parliament in 1776?

Yeah, I'm not real big up on Canadian politics or history here,

but I don't think the real

thought is

if the Canadians all decided as this is the way they want to go,

then, you know, more power.

There are churches who dealt with it differently than, say, my

church for

anything.

I'm not the one that God will.

And so.

And thank you, Laszlo.

And you've also won a copy of On This Ancient Battleground, Winning the War Between Tyranny and Christian Faith

by our guest, Gordon Runyon.

And we have John and Bangor, Maine.

Who says earlier in the program, you gave a caveat that you were not calling

Christians to violence when it comes to overthrowing tyranny.

But is that not.

Is that not the very reason our founding fathers provided us with the Second

Amendment in the Constitution.

To form militias for that very reason?

Yeah, I would say that's all about self -defense.

I don't think the reason for the Second Amendment

is there to the tyranny takes up arms and goes out to

crush the citizens or, you know, prove a point or whatever that is.

I do believe not

taking violence off

the table on whatever we

can take whatever avenue.

So would we have to, as a society here in America or other societies

globally, have to reach the point when the government

is mandating how many children households are to have because of overpopulation, at least overpopulation in their

minds and they begin seizing babies or

even children, older children from homes and executing them or forcing women

to have abortions and that kind of thing.

Is that the kind of level of evil that is being forced

upon a society that is required for us to say, all right, let's get the guns

out and we are not tolerating this anymore?

Or what exactly what kind of a scenario are you talking about?

Yeah, I think I'd go back to the concept that

because, like I say, you wear a uniform or a badge doesn't entitle you to do.

Just gave me hypothetical.

One of those would be you're not allowed to go to somebody's house and kidnap people.

It's going to be bullets flying and it doesn't matter if you're

a government guy or you're just a crackhead or something like that.

You break into my house.

That may well turn physical.

Yes, and you're speaking of even if it's the government that has authority over you.

Sure, yeah, absolutely.

Well, I just think a little bit.

The name Breonna Taylor comes to mind.

She's the woman who was asleep with her.

I think it was her husband might have been a boyfriend, but she's asleep in her home.

Peacefully, the police do a no knock raid and wind up

shoot out.

The man was because he actually picked up a gun and tried to defend them.

Nobody that

and I just think we really need to get back to the eye.

It doesn't mean you get.

We have to go to a final break right now.

And by the way, thank you, listener for that question.

And you have also won a free copy of the book we are discussing

on this ancient battleground winning the war between tyranny and Christian faith.

That was John and Bangor, Maine.

Please give us your full mailing address so we can have CVBBS .com that's Cumberland Valley Bible

Book Service so we can have them mail out your free copy of the book to Bangor, Maine.

We're going to our final break right now.

If you would like to get in line and ask a question, there are still people waiting to have their questions asked.

But if you want to get in line, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, city, and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, we'll be right back.

Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy.

And currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more

and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you

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Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Bonifuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my

very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope

Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always

been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I cannot hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving

and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

Pastor Christopher McDowell.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net, or

call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the NASB is my Bible

of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck Volo.

Of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Steve Herford.

Of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church.

To help keep Iron Trump and Zion Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com to place your order.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to

clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of

our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,

or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will

join us on Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and

always.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen and this is the last segment of our interview today with Pastor Gordon Runyon on his book

On This Ancient Battleground, Winning the War Between Tyranny and Christian Faith.

Our email address, if you want to join us, which you better do quickly if you intend to, with a question, is

chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We have a man who I will identify by his full name because I think his church

is worthy of promotion publicly on this program.

His name is Pastor Gary Wagner.

He is the pastor of Reformed Heritage Church in Los Gatos, California.

And he, from time to time, offers us some excellent, incisive

questions.

So I hope that we are once again blessed by

Pastor Gary's questions.

He says, When Scripture talks about the poor, the afflicted, and the

oppressed, is he not talking about his poor, afflicted, and oppressed?

And he spells his in all capitals, and I'm assuming what he means by that is God's poor, but I'm not

really sure.

I guess what he is saying, and Pastor Gary, if I'm incorrect in interpreting

this this way, let me know.

I assume he is saying that Christians have an obligation to provide for the poor among

us who are Christians, and that perhaps those who are

pagans need not be a primary subject of

financial support if they are rebelling against Christ.

I wouldn't necessarily, it depends on the circumstance that you're talking about, I wouldn't say that we are to not

provide for the needs of the pagan, but I'm not the guest today.

Our guest today, Gordon Runyon is.

So what do you have to say about this question?

And of course, Gary, if I'm misinterpreting you, let me know.

They're sending in another email.

Okay, well,.

I'm going to go with your interpretation of his question, and

I'm reminded of the

meeting.

That's, and I'd say yes and

amen to that.

That's why we need to have really robust about

that, but I'd point out the government at all levels has kind of

commandeered for it, so to speak,

to the point that we've had people in various cities who have been arrested for trying to feed

homeless people or give them clothing or something like that, because the government.

Wow.

Yeah, for sure that has happened, and I'm sure they couch it in terms

of, well, we don't know.

Well, anyway, it's your desire to help the poor wind up in jail for their trouble.

And one of the things that has done, I

believe toward the poor, even

within our church, find out that there's a need.

If we got

the

government

out of the charity business,

if we got the government out of the charity business,.

I need to oblige.

And Gary's second question is, what does Gordon feel about, hey,

Reformed pastor, you're supposed to say think, not feel.

What does Gordon, I'll insert that word in there.

What does Gordon think about the doctrine.

Of the lesser magistrate?

So I'm totally on board.

In fact, there's a book by that name that I recommend highly.

The doctrine of the lesser magistrates is the idea that if you are in a position of governing authority, you have a

duty who are under you,

protecting them from tyrannical and unjust.

And it's a form of interposition.

You know, the Bible uses not the term, but the concept of interposition dozens of times

where righteous people stand in the gap, so to speak, between evil.

And frankly, there are also many instances of this interposition.

I

think

that's

also lawful.

And let me just give a quick, quick plug to Reformed Heritage Church in Los Gatos, California's website,

reformedheritage .org, reformedheritage .org.

And by the way, Pastor Gary did send in an email clarifying that we were correct,

that correct in interpreting his question, that the church is to be provided for first, as far

as our obligation as Christians.

He didn't rule out providing for the lost or the pagan, but he just said that the first obligation

is for the Christians.

And then we have Cindy in

Finley, Ohio, referencing your comment as to the Democrat Party being the party of compassion

because they attempt to help the downtrodden single mothers and so forth.

The welfare society only exacerbates the problem of poverty.

They reward women and girls for having baby after baby with boyfriend after boyfriend, providing homes, phones,

food, insurance, school meals, et cetera.

On the surface, it seems to be compassionate, but it promotes a home without a father.

Millions and millions of boys and girls are being raised without a father.

The destruction of the family is promoted by the government.

How is that compassionate?

How can a society survive and thrive when the government increases poverty, when the government destroys the family?

The welfare system has not solved any problems, but increase them and multiply them.

The Democrat Party is responsible for this and the Republican Party is responsible because they

roll over and play dead.

Cindy, don't you know that women aren't supposed to preach?

I'm just kidding.

And by the way, well, I'm not kidding.

I do believe that, but I don't believe that Cindy was doing that.

Cindy, I agree with every word you said.

You weren't really asking a question, but I'm assuming you agree with every word she said as well.

Yeah, I just, I'm dismayed that she might think that I was recommending the

Democratic Party as the party of compassion.

I was, if I said anything, I was trying to say they build themselves that way.

But I certainly agree with her evaluation.

Give me your full mailing address in Findlay, Ohio, because you've won the last copy of

On This Ancient Battleground by our guest today.

Uh, we have, uh, somebody who I'll also identify by their full name and

the ministry that they serve.

I used to work there part time alongside this dear brother when he lived in Long

Island, on Long Island, New York.

But I'm speaking of Joseph M. Bianchi, the president of Calvary Press Publishing

in Greenville, South Carolina.

He asks, how do we apply what your guest believes to actual government?

Viz, do we vote for candidates that exclusively believe in Christian ethics?

Are we compelled to put forth such candidates to charge the political landscape?

So, or change, I'm sorry, to change the political landscape so that our laws

reflect biblical principles?

So I guess the question really involves is, is the primary thing that it is our duty is to vote.

I'm, it looks that way.

OK, my answer to that would be no, that's not our primary duty.

Our primary duty of the church is to preach the gospel and do all the things that are consistent with that in terms

of the Great Commission.

Of course, I don't think that he would deny that.

I think he means, I think he means specifically in regard to

raising up, God is the only one that really raises up rulers.

But our part in the, the being the means that God uses

to elect officials, I guess he's saying is the voting.

Oh, and he also said.

Put forth candidates.

So, yeah, I, I really, again, we're kind of back to strategy

and what's the best way to attack it.

And I actually think what he mentioned is a good idea.

I personally believe we need to break out of the tribalism

that's involved in the really strict

one.

You must be voting and you're not allowed to have any disagreement.

Secret agent of the other.

We have to get rid of the tribalism where it doesn't matter what my guy does, as long as he's wearing.

The way that I think we do this is by putting forward better candidates, men who

are not corrupt.

It's a very long -term answer that the mountain that we need to climb to make this really

happen is so huge.

But I really do think it's worth that climb.

It may take generations, but we need to, I think we need to have that long -term goal in mind.

That people, that the electorate, they

used to always be used to

have the best.

Okay, I'm going to quick read.

I'm going to have to butt in here because I want to quickly read one last.

It's really comments, not question.

But Dick Guido, who's been a guest on this program, he's from Raleigh, North Carolina, and he's an Orthodox Presbyterian

elder and attorney.

And he has discussed political issues on this program.

He says, Pastor Runyon, as I have discussed with Chris on two occasions on Iron Shepherds Iron, I have viewed the

matter of civil disobedience to be best analyzed in a spectrum between Romans 13, we must obey the

powers that be, and Acts 5 29, we must obey God rather than man.

Our task then, as Christians, is to determine where we are on that spectrum

in order to biblically respond to particular actions of the civil

magistrate.

But I am not a theonomist, though I have benefited greatly from reading in

theonomy, from readings in theonomy, and I'm wondering whether you would have any disagreement with

that stemming from your views of Scripture, if you could quickly answer that,.

Because we've got to go.

No, I think Scripture is the only place we can appeal to.

My encouragement would be, if you're not, if you really don't see the law of God as the standard,

you're really going to have a hard time appealing to a standard than when the government.

Does whatever it does.

Well, we are out of time, and anybody who wants to contact our guest, send an email to him at

reformnm for New Mexico at yahoo .com.

Reformnm at yahoo .com.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.