Mormonism Cannot Save You

Apologia Utah

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hi how are you doing that's that's fine my name is Andrew Julia this is my son that's

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Mo yeah my son poet and my daughter Marley have you ever so you've never seen us out here on the corner before no how long have you been down in Provo a long time and you've never seen every

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Thursday we're out here except for when it's super cold yeah yeah so we're preaching the gospel to our hey buddy relax oh he dropped his little we can get you another one okay yeah so we're out here preaching the gospel to our

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LDS neighbors like what do you know about Christianity in general Christianity yeah I mean cool cool that's awesome so when you say forgiving of sins and then washed clean by baptism what do you mean by that yeah yeah what does that mean exactly

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I just want to know what you believe really right interesting hold on buddy yeah so what my first question would be you say

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Jesus so what do you believe about Jesus literal son of God literal son of God okay so he's the offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother just like all of us okay so in terms of being son of Adam how would how would you reconcile that with actually being offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother instead of being offspring of Adam because really you're just Adam's like sister not necessarily the daughter of Adam okay in John chapter 1 what it says about Jesus it says in the beginning was the

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Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God all things were created through him on heaven and on earth there was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Jesus right so in the

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Greek in John chapter 1 verse 1 it says in our K in halagos in the word was is what we use to translate in and the word in Greek is much more expressive that we haven't then we have in English yeah it's beautiful yeah

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I know so what it means though is it means as far back as you can go with no point of reference of space or time

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Jesus the word was already there that he never came into existence at a point in time and then it says in the word was with God and that's the was is in again frost on they on which is in a face -to -face intimate relationship with God and then it says and he was so LDS theology teaches something different it says that he was not always

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God that he's the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother yeah but that's different than what

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John chapter 1 says it clearly says that he always has been God and he created all things on heaven and on earth but the

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Jesus presented to us in the LDS faith says that that's not true he didn't create

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Lucifer he's the spirit brother of Lucifer right and the Bible warns us in 2nd Corinthians 11 verse 4 it says there's people that will come and preach a different Jesus a different gospel who have accepted a different spirit and so that's my worry for my

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LDS neighbors is that you believe in a different Jesus a Jesus of Joseph Smith not the

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Jesus of the Bible I like what you say about the Atonement yeah that's great yeah I mean that's that's the whole that's the whole center

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I mean that that is what it means to be a Christian and I think that as a member of the church

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I mean none of us are perfect I was actually with a friend we were talking about this today we're like you know like like Jesus is perfect and like God is perfect and the gospel is perfect but the church it's not perfect because we're a carnal and we're not perfect and that's okay because we're doing our best and like the whole reason to be here is to learn to become like Jesus Christ and to do the best that we can and so I think that I mean if we forget that Jesus is meant to be at the center of everything then yes we fail and like yes like we're worshiping something besides like what is the most important thing and I think we forget sometimes because we are carnal unfortunately man has a short memory

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I mean right right but so so do you believe so what I guess my question is kind of like to bounce off like you saying like I worry that my

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LDS brothers and sisters believe in a different Jesus like what Jesus do you believe in then because right right

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I mean I'm assuming that like just from you shaking your head and being like yeah like it seems like well

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I would say I would say first I wouldn't use the term brothers and sisters respectfully Julia respectfully

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I'd say brothers and sisters in Adam but not in Christ respectfully but um in terms of what I would believe about Jesus I believe actually what the scriptures say about it that he has always been

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God and that he took on flesh and died on the cross for my sins so when I stand before the Father I stand justified declared righteous through the righteousness of Christ now when

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I stand before the Father I have nothing to offer him because the Bible says my righteousness is nothing but filthy rags but we're told by Joseph Smith he says you have imagined and supposed that God has been

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God from all eternity I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see you have got to learn to become

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God's so that's the teachings of Joseph Smith right but what bothers me is that you may be worshipping a

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Jesus Christ a fiction one that doesn't actually exist right so if we're presented with a different Jesus than the one of Scripture you're ultimately gonna end up with a different gospel one of my one of my worries is and you can correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not

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LDS so I could get your theology wrong but say say you're you're married right don't doesn't your hub husband have to call you by a secret name in order to become resurrected at the end no that's not a real thing no so like I mean like we're all given names so like in the temple like we are all given a name a symbol okay when we go through and we receive promises through the endowment but it's not buddy

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I mean like it's not through our husband that we receive resurrection it is through Jesus Christ he doesn't have to call your name so honestly like we don't know like that's the thing like that's one of those things of God like that we and I'm yeah yeah that's fine

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I'm gonna go to this because like I'm still learning like I'm honestly like I don't remember for a long time but I'm still learning and I'm still like trying to go to the temple and trying to learn as much as I can and I don't want to preach something and like so forgive me like if I like yeah yeah you're good if I give it to you the way that I understand it that's fine

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I'm part of yeah but the way that I understand it is it's it's part of like a ceremony of some sort but again like we don't know the ways of God like we don't know like it could just be like that's the way that God is like okay this is the best way that I can take to describe it like maybe it's not necessarily my husband that calls me maybe that is just meant to be like the representation of like because Jesus Christ is the bridegroom is he not right yeah and we are meant to be his bride like the church is his bride and so for all

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I know it could be Jesus that would call that name and that would call me for it I don't know yeah that's interesting

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I'm just doing my best to live as Jesus told me to live and to love people and to support and to serve and to be who

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I think Jesus is to other people and so I think that's why I like talking to you guys because obviously you guys love

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Jesus we both love Jesus I'd say a different Jesus though and I'll agree to disagree

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I think in a lot of ways we love the same Jesus like maybe we believe different things about him here's a thought for you so say you're talking with the

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Jehovah's Witness and you're talking with a Muslim and you're talking with a Christian all of them claim to believe in Jesus the

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Jehovah's Witness says he is Michael the Archangel the first creation of Jehovah God the Prophet but he's not the

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Savior of the world he's not God in the flesh he didn't die on the cross for your sins the Christian will say that he is the eternal God in the flesh who died on the cross for my sins do they all believe in the same

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Jesus? technically no absolutely right so I would say as well with the

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LDS person saying that Jesus is not the eternal God but the creation of God in plain denial of what scripture teaches about Jesus I'd say it's a different Jesus so when you're saying eternal creation of God not creation, uncreated do you guys believe in the

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Trinity then? absolutely that makes more sense because I was trying to come to the level where you guys are so that totally makes sense why you're like yeah we don't believe in the same

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Jesus because in LDS theology we believe the Father, the Son, and the

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Holy Ghost are three separate beings I know, that's not a good thing in the eternal progression of God this is what it says about God in the

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Bible Isaiah 43 .10 it says before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me

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Isaiah 44 .6 I am the first and I am the last besides me there is no God he says look around I know not one so I guess my question is why do you think that it's so bad to believe that like because if you believe in the

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Trinity and I believe that there are three separate beings whether it's one person or three people that they taught to love your neighbors and to serve your fellow men and to love

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God like unto yourself and to love your neighbor like it's a great commandment kind of thing and to help the widow and to lift up the needy and to help the poor and if they both teach that and if you agree that they both teach that then why why get hung up great question on whether he is one or three great question because I believe actually in Isaiah 43 .10

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it says you are my witnesses declares the Lord the servant that I have chosen that you may know and understand and believe that I am he and Jesus Christ himself says unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins and he's actually quoting in the

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I am he statements from Isaiah in reference to the eternal God which is something that's beautiful so that's a great question that you bring up because in the scripture 2

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Corinthians 11 when it warns us about people who preach a different Jesus a different gospel a different spirit it says there further in the chapter

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I know you're getting cold it says that there's people that look like they're doing works of righteousness right that they believe almost the same thing that you believe but since they believe in a different Jesus a different gospel a different spirit it says that the ends will correspond to their deeds and those deeds are deeds of death so it's not because you do good things that makes you a righteous person that's the thing so just because someone teaches it

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I mean Muslims teach very similar things but it doesn't make them a righteous person I would say this I'd say what is the end of that deed right in Christianity my goal is to glorify

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God and enjoy him forever and Joseph Smith taught that you must become a

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God one day says you have got to learn to become God that you yourself one day will have offspring if you reach the highest level of heaven through obedience to the doctrine ordinances and principles that then you become a deity right no so the deeds aren't done to glorify

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God they're to become a God and be glorified forever you would want to be a heavenly mother one day would you not it's not biblical so do you guys think that members of the church simply do the things that we do because we're

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I guess for lack of a better word earning heaven absolutely obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles things that have to be done in order to reach the highest level of heaven like Moroni 10 32 for example love the

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Lord with all your might mind and strength and then God's grace is sufficient for you but Ephesians 2 says something totally different it says that we were dead in our trespasses and sins right we're once children of wrath it says that we are saved by the grace of God through faith and not of ourselves absolutely and I'm with you with it

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I like that you're with me I'm with you and I don't believe you have to earn it to get there but that's not the way it is but we don't believe that we're earning heaven

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I think a better way we believe that we're learning heaven that by living in this way of life because God like he's on a whole nother level like would you say like he is like absolute purity absolute goodness absolute love like he's all that and if I am living a certain way

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I think that eventually I'll be because I want to be with him I want to be in his presence and I'd like to believe that I'm trying to be a good person if I'm trying to follow the commandments if I'm trying to serve and love that when that time comes that I'll be comfortable in his presence and so I think

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I believe and I'm sure that there are millions of members that would agree with me that we're not trying to earn heaven because we can't we can't earn heaven and the whole trying to get to celestial kingdom is not earning heaven we don't believe that keeping the commandments we don't believe that by going to the temple we don't believe that by going to church or paying tithing is going to earn our way to heaven somehow that gets rid of God's atonement but that it's hopefully changing us into a being that would be comfortable in the presence of God would you disagree with that verse in the book of Mormon that in Romans chapter 10 verse 32 denying ungodliness it claims in that verse doing all these good deeds and then right after all those works you do and then right after that there's grace the grace is finally sufficient but that can be disagreed with all the apostles and Ephesians chapter 2 by grace are you safe through faith just not of yourselves not of works you're doing so good you're doing so good he's just cold

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I know I feel it I got you bud Paul actually expounds on the same thing to the

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Galatians he says in chapter 1 the beginning of the letter he says whoever comes to you preaching a different gospel than the one that we've given to you that you've received from us whether it's us or an angel from heaven teaching a different gospel he says let him be accursed so Paul is distinguishing the differences between gospels the gospels is what saves men from sins so Moroni chapter 10 2nd

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Nephi 24 by grace you're saved after all you can do those are two different gospels

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Paul in Galatians is actually dealing with men who said well you know you can have your faith in Christ you can have

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Christ sure but you just need a small part of the law and it's just circumcision that's it and that's a different gospel he said that the

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Galatians fell from the grace of God that they no longer were holding to a gospel but a false one and the same with Christ Paul brings that up in 2nd

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Corinthians I believe 2nd Corinthians 13? 11?

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my brain but he brings up that many will come to you preaching a different Christ than the one you've received and just as my brother said they will seem they will act like they're doing the same thing they'll look at our fruits look we have we feed homeless people but Paul brings up because they have a different Christ their ends will meet with their needs meaning the

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Mormon church has a different gospel they can't say it they teach that you must work yourself to heaven in terms of your faith plus your rights your righteousness upon Christ and you're calling this with the

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Mormon? well yeah well it's plain in Moroni 2nd Corinthians 13 it says

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I can do this, I can do that and then it says right after but the

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Bible teaches the apostles, Jesus they all taught that grace where is this Moroni? 1032

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I just barely finished the Book of Mormon today so this is great I just barely finished it today so this is great,

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I love this but compare that passage when the

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Bible says Ephesians 2 if I graze you in the sake of your faith, how about this? let's see let's see

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I love, it sounds like you guys have at least read bits and pieces I was Mormon I used to be

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Mormon come unto Christ and be perfect in him and deny yourself of all ungodliness and love

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God with all your might by his grace you may be perfect in Christ that by his grace it is only through his grace that you may be perfect in Christ and if by the grace of God you are perfect in Christ then you know why it is denied to God so he doesn't, he says it is through the grace of God that we're perfect but what about that beginning part when it says denying all ungodliness then it says loving the

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Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and then the grace comes in for the perfection so Jesus actually says, that's part of the law that's probably the best, most, where all the prophets stand is on that law where it says love the

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Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength Paul says if you wish to be justified by doing that by receiving grace through that he says you are condemned and you will not be justified before God he expounds the same thing on the meaning of grace in Romans chapter 11 verse 6 if it is of grace no longer is it of works if it is of works, no longer do you have grace but debt a debt due to the person who has work for but grace is something that man cannot receive by works by loving your neighbor, loving

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God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength which you agree with you know, we can well that's a dangerous thing

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Paul says, because we can all men are bound for hell guys you're making it sound, so I guess my question is do you guys think

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I'm going to hell? yes that's a bummer well that's because we care about you, that's why we're out here do you understand

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Julia? you guys are not going to win people that way no, no, that's the message of the gospel the gospel is we are on track to hell, but only the eternal

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God can save us so do you guys think you're going to hell? no, I'm saved by the blood of Christ different Jesus, no

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Julia, listen before I lose you, before I lose you we're out here because we care about you, number one and I stop because I care about you guys and I respect what you do so the reason why we talk about a different Jesus and why it's so important is number one if you believe in a different Jesus, you're going to end up with a different gospel but also because of this there's two tests of a prophet in the

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Bible there's Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 Deuteronomy 13 says if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles signs and wonders, but leads you after another

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God, gods that you have not known, don't believe them and then Deuteronomy 18 is the second test of a prophet it says if anyone claims to speak in the name of Yahweh, right but the thing does not come to pass just one thing, false prophet right, so you're told to read the

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Book of Mormon, to pray about it, to find out whether it's true to use your subjective human experience and your feelings whether or not it's true well the

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Bible tells me Joseph Smith says something, he says he has a revelation from God he claims to be a prophet, a seer, a revelator right, well the way

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I'm going to test him is by what the scriptures say I'm going to go to Deuteronomy 13, if he leads me after another

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God, gods which I have not known, the ones that have been previously revealed I must reject him so Jesus Christ is the eternal

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God uncreated, scripture clearly shows us that, he created Lucifer, he's not the spirit brother of Lucifer, Joseph said you have imagined and supposed that God has been

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God from all eternity he says I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see, it's from the King Follett discourse you can look it up, then he says you have got to learn to become gods, okay, and then in Deuteronomy 18 it says one false prophecy false prophet,

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Joseph Smith Joseph had many false prophecies false prophet, there's false prophecies right here from your guys' own literature these are photocopies

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I must reject him according to God's word I must reject him because God's word actually protects me think about this, think about this real quick in the garden, oh okay hold on, in the garden in the garden right, what happens right, the devil comes and he tempts

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Eve he said you can eat from that fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right and then

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Eve's like no, I can't do that, can you help your brother please he's like no, I can't do that and Satan goes did

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God really say that he says he doesn't want you to eat from the fruit because he knows you'll be just like God, Joseph Smith told you the very same thing, he said the

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Bible's missing many plain and precious parts, he said and guess what, you can become like God it's the same lie of Satan, and he says you need to work your way up there the way

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I can be protected to not be deceived is because I have God's word it says every word of God proves true he is like a shield unto them who puts their faith in him add thou not to these words lest he rebukes you and thou shalt be found a liar,

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Jesus says this heaven and earth shall pass away but my words by no means will ever pass away

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Joseph Smith denies the very words of Christ, Jesus says on this rock I have established my church and the gates of hell will never prevail against it,

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Joseph said guess what, there's a great apostasy, the church failed and I'm here to restore the gospel and he tempted you with the very same lie,

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Julia test your prophet to scripture he's leading you astray I do not believe you, you say you love

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God I do, then test your prophet I have, according to scripture or according to your feelings,

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I prayed about it with President Nelson, the Bible doesn't say to determine things by prayer, it says test the spirits, test them according to God's previously revealed word

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Julia do it, I know you say you love God Julia, think about it, imagine I was a Muslim here's the thing, for what

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I say you guys are going to talk circles because you guys, like you're obviously well prepared you guys obviously, like, you've got your arguments you've got, like, your

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Book of Mormon and your Bible, and and I, like, I academically

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I can't commit with you guys because you guys, you have your arguments you have your pamphlets, you have these things, it's just the words of your prophet though comparing it to scripture, we care about you,

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I know, and I care about you guys then test it, and I appreciate honestly, like, I appreciate that you guys are here, that you guys are like because I honestly believe that you guys truly believe what you believe, and I truly believe what

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I believe and I can't describe it but you believe it according to your feelings, not according to what

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God's word says, so you're not actually certain, you're certain right now because that's how you feel, but your whole faith depends on how you feel but why are you trying to break down my faith?

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no, I want you to actually find faith in the true and living God who can sustain you when you stand before the

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Father justified in the perfect righteousness of Christ but that's the thing that I have a different Christ according to scripture that's what scripture says, according to God's word okay, well

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Julie, we'll put it this way our arguments, what we're only trying to show you is what the

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Bible says so your church is literally teaching you according to the King Paul discourse you said you read it,

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Joseph Smith said there's more there from God he said you can become that but then God says, before me there were no gods before me, now there shall be after me

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Julie, you have to deal with that, that's something that you just have to see and plainly discern that's okay, and I think,

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I don't know I feel a little bit like we had a good discussion going on about Jesus, and about how we both love

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God, we both love Jesus, and how His atonement encompasses all, and that it is through His grace that we are saved but it is

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I'm not going to lie, it is hard to want to have a good discussion about Jesus and then to have you guys basically be like, we're going to hell

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I mean that's what the scripture says and that's okay, Jesus spoke more about hell than anybody, Julie, and I'm just saying that it was a very positive conversation, and I love you guys and I respect you guys for being out here and for talking about Jesus but it is, it's a little bit hard like you have to, it is hard, you have to understand it's definitely hard, like if I were to come to you and be like, you're going to hell,

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I'd say how do you know that? and if you tell me it's your feelings, then I'm going to say, well God's word says otherwise, right, well, well

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Julie I'll put it this way, in the love passage talking about love it says in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 where Paul says love is, it says love rejoices in truth, so if we see you and we hear you're believing a lie and we do not preach the gospel or we do not preach truth to you the

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Bible actually says that, we're not being loving at all, the Bible actually says we're hating you, we're not loving you,

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Jesus did the exact same thing when he calls out many men in sin calls them to faith and repentance he preaches love, imagine if I was in a building, and I'm on like the top floor, and you tell, hey there's a fire but you know, you're like well, you know, it'd be unloving if you didn't tell me that so that's exactly the same thing we're doing right now you're believing a lie, and scripture proclaims it, it says that you're you're deceived by your by the false prophet your false prophet, 1

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John 2 it says test everything by the word of God, test the spirits, Paul says test everything, hold fast to what is true so that's just what we're trying to push you to the edge we do love you, truly

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I mean, I could be at home I'm in high school, so I could be literally doing whatever he's in high school, believe it or not whenever I look at him like he has a family, he could be at home with his wife but because of what

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God proclaims and the fact that we're out here, we love you guys, we truly want you guys to come to faith in the true

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Christ and the true God, it's something to think about Julia, and I'm thinking about it just remember the words of Jesus before you go he says, many will come to me, and they will come in my name, saying,

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Lord, Lord, look at the works that I've done in your name and he says, depart from me, you workers of iniquity,

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I never knew you they claim to know him the whole time but at the end, he says, depart from me, there's no hope left well,

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I guess I better go figure things out with God then, and I think that that would probably be the best course of action because at this point, it's been a good talk, thank you

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Julia but I'm ready to go alright, yeah, the sun's going down and I am ready to feast out do you want to take one of these before you go?

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I'll take it. Cool. Hey, you have a good night, okay? you're awesome for stopping and talking with us I don't think you're going to get much like, much love telling people you're going to hell well, that's what

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Jesus preached well, love rejoices in truth well, that's true

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God hates the hands that shed innocent blood, since he loves he also hates. Really? God also hates me too, so like, that's a new one the

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Bible plainly declares it it says in Romans chapter 3 no one seeks God, no one understands

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God Julia, in your life today, praise God you can believe today I'll be praising God all day which one?

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Different one though oh man, you guys Julia! I wish you luck I wish you luck,

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I wish you quick peace sorry it says first comes death, then comes the judgment there's no hope after that, there's only death and then there's nothing else for you